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[AdamH]

Played a warm-up game against SheCantSayNo last night before the games we recorded (which should be up like, now). It was a really interesting board with a lot of complex interaction:

Kingdom: Crossroads, Native Village, Wishing Well, Bridge, Death Cart, Sea Hag, Wandering Minstrel, Cartographer, Jester, Adventurer

Game Log: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130915/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1379284047225.txt



So NV+Bridge is there, but in my experience this is countered pretty well by cursing attacks. The draw here is weak, and there's no actual trashing, but lots of sifting and top-deck interaction make NV pretty effective at thinning your deck, and for using it and Wishing Well as draw. SCSN goes directly for NV/Bridge while I open Sea Hag/Wishing Well and think about going indirectly for it, focusing on playing my one Sea Hag as often as possible and making the Bridge split at least even.

I end up getting a 7-3 Bridge split in my favor, which when added to the Curse points is what decided the game in my favor, but through what is likely superior play, he keeps the game very close. I start attacking Estates as a pile to put pressure on him to trigger the megaturn early, which I think had something to do with it, but I don't know if that was the right move.

After the game we were talking about what happened and couldn't really figure out why he was unable to get enough money for Bridges. He thinks my Sea Hag was a mistake and I think it was the key to my win, I don't think it was conclusive though.

So does anyone have any thoughts?

[popsofctown]

I agree with SheCantSayNo, I don't think Sea Hag is good against NV Bridge.  Each time you play Sea Hag when he has Native Village in hand, you are only cancelling out part of one play of Native Village (It still makes Actions).  The curse gets immediately removed, which, if you hadn't played Sea Hag at all, would have been a megaturn card removed, but buying a 4$ card that counteracts a 2$ card seems pretty questionable.

Amongst SheCantSayNo's Native Village plays that weren't guaranteed to hit a curse, he didn't hit Estate or Curse at any time early enough to be important.  That's where I think the bad beats are, most of the time you play the NV Bridge deck, you remove Estates and Coppers in an even enough proportion that your economy doesn't fall too far from 4$.  If even one of those early plays of NV hit Estate instead of Copper or Bridge I think you'd be in for it.  First blind Curse/Estate removal was turn 10.

[lespeutere]

The draw here is weak

I don't agree with this. Cartographer/WM/WW interactions give nice enough draw. Technically, it may not be that much draw, but with the sifting from Cartographer and WM, this is very effective (well, would be, in case of WM, as you didn't get any). I am very unsure about how to actually set it up and about seahag, though. Surely, the NV/bridge deck doesn't like extra cards being put into it. And with the sifting, SH may be pretty fast, so I think I wouldn't skip SH here. But, as said before, I'm not sure at all.

[DG]

After the game we were talking about what happened and couldn't really figure out why he was unable to get enough money for Bridges.

By turn 6 there were too many native villages in the deck and they stifle income, especially with one bridge on the mat.

[Mic Qsenoch]

The junking from the Sea Hag may not be as strong here, but I think the points definitely are. This is a three-pile board and the margin of victory is likely to be slim, the curses could decide that easily. And the junking certainly won't help the NV-Bridge player.

As for the game itself, once you have won the Bridge split that decisively, you should seriously consider building (lots of engine pieces still available: WM, WW, Cartographer) until you can end the game safely in one or two turns, instead of taking 1-2 Estates at a time.

[AdamH]

The junking from the Sea Hag may not be as strong here, but I think the points definitely are. This is a three-pile board and the margin of victory is likely to be slim, the curses could decide that easily. And the junking certainly won't help the NV-Bridge player.

As for the game itself, once you have won the Bridge split that decisively, you should seriously consider building (lots of engine pieces still available: WM, WW, Cartographer) until you can end the game safely in one or two turns, instead of taking 1-2 Estates at a time.

The more I think about it, the more the Estates were probably not the best play. Because I bought the Estates I needed the Curse points.

For some reason it's just not clicking to me that NV/Bridge isn't adversely affected by Sea Hag. Do you think some other curser would work any better because of the top-deck interaction with Sea Hag/NV? I'm recalling a game where I went for NV/Bridge and got destroyed by IGG.

Maybe it's just that I'm inclined to look for every other possible explanation for something before blaming shuffle luck?

[popsofctown]

IMO, Young Witch, Witch and Mountebank would do an excellent job.  Native Village would have an equal chance of hitting good cards and crap cards in those situations, so the cursing would gum up the works, just like you intended.  Unless Native Village is the bane card, of course.

Sea Hag happens to put the curse on top of the deck, and I think that's a rather big deal.  So long as your opponent has a Native Village in hand, which is a decent assumption for your second play of Sea Hag and practically a given by your third, you discard your Sea Hag, he discards his Native Village, and you take a VP chip. 


I'm going to disagree, at my own risk, with Mic Qsenoch's opinion that the 10 VP matters.  Sure, the game will probably end on three piles, but the guy with more NVs and Bridges has more control on when that ending occurs, and I think it's only a freak occurence that that person was AdamH this time.  Six VP is nothing.. on a proper megaturn, Shecantsayno can simply play the very bridge he bought over SeaHag, use the +buy from that bridge to buy a Province, and VP advantage negated, except he got to use that Bridge for economy all game, while the Sea Hag was like, a zero coin Militia.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I'm going to disagree, at my own risk, with Mic Qsenoch's opinion that the 10 VP matters.  Sure, the game will probably end on three piles, but the guy with more NVs and Bridges has more control on when that ending occurs, and I think it's only a freak occurence that that person was AdamH this time.  Six VP is nothing.. on a proper megaturn, Shecantsayno can simply play the very bridge he bought over SeaHag, use the +buy from that bridge to buy a Province, and VP advantage negated, except he got to use that Bridge for economy all game, while the Sea Hag was like, a zero coin Militia.

I think you misunderstand how the NV-Bridge mirror plays out. It's not a mega-turn multi Province thing (usually). Neither player gets enough engine pieces to do anything super big, it's about jockeying for position to be the one who can three pile with a lead. Duchies and Estates are the usual VP targets. I'm not confident (would need to play several games) but I really don't think Sea Hag will make a huge impact on the NV/Bridge splits one way or the other, but I think the curse points are important. Ignoring Sea Hag will probably help you win the NV split, but not help hugely with the Bridge split, and so I like Hag more when there's another village on the board.

Sea Hag happens to put the curse on top of the deck, and I think that's a rather big deal.  So long as your opponent has a Native Village in hand, which is a decent assumption for your second play of Sea Hag and practically a given by your third, you discard your Sea Hag, he discards his Native Village, and you take a VP chip. 

Man, I hate this kind of description so much. It doesn't accurately describe the effect on either player, no cards are discarded and no VP chips are involved, it doesn't account for the plus actions from NV or the use of a terminal action in Sea Hag. It's completely unnecessary because the actual effects are not complicated or hard to describe.

[popsofctown]

Sea Hag happens to put the curse on top of the deck, and I think that's a rather big deal.  So long as your opponent has a Native Village in hand, which is a decent assumption for your second play of Sea Hag and practically a given by your third, you discard your Sea Hag, he discards his Native Village, and you take a VP chip. 

Man, I hate this kind of description so much. It doesn't accurately describe the effect on either player, no cards are discarded and no VP chips are involved, it doesn't account for the plus actions from NV or the use of a terminal action in Sea Hag. It's completely unnecessary because the actual effects are not complicated or hard to describe.

Both of those errors go in favor of Sea Hag, e.g., I erred on the side of Sea Hag, so I don't think it's an unfair way to describe things.  And it's just a restatement of... oh, I typoed my original post, so maybe it's not so clear that I made the same point without a metaphor earlier.  I understand why you might be agitated.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Both of those errors go in favor of Sea Hag, e.g., I erred on the side of Sea Hag, so I don't think it's an unfair way to describe things.  And it's just a restatement of... oh, I typoed my original post, so maybe it's not so clear that I made the same point without a metaphor earlier.  I understand why you might be agitated.

My complaint there had nothing to do with the strategic question. It was just about "why do people choose these bizarre analogy things instead of just talking about what actually happens"