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[werothegreat]

Any other suggestions?

[Warfreak2]

I think Swindler is probably a counter, as it also gives you diverse junk.

[werothegreat]

I think Swindler is probably a counter, as it also gives you diverse junk.

Ehhh I'd think that'd be fairly kingdom dependent.  It can't give you diverse junk reliably in the same way Looters can.

Anybody else?  Or is the article ready to go up on the wiki?

[dondon151]

Ehhh I'd think that'd be fairly kingdom dependent.  It can't give you diverse junk reliably in the same way Looters can.

Of course it can, especially if you have more than one opponent.

[werothegreat]

Ehhh I'd think that'd be fairly kingdom dependent.  It can't give you diverse junk reliably in the same way Looters can.

Of course it can, especially if you have more than one opponent.

What is Swindler most likely to hit?  Copper.  Those turn into Curses, which offers no more variety than a Curser.  In most kingdoms, there will be 1-3 cards of each cost, and most of them will be, if not essential, then not necessarily undesirable.  $5s can be turned into Duchies, yes, and Potions, when in the game, are certainly a danger, but that's still not that high, and Swindler needs to hit them in the first place.  And keep in mind that Journeyman dislikes "bad" variety much more than "neutral" or "good" variety.

[DG]

If you have a deck of 20 cards with 3 estates, your journeyman has a chance to skip of those 3 cards if you call estate. That doesn't depend on whether the rest of that 20 card deck is swindled curses or gold. However you could use different measures to see how attacks like swindler can change the value of a journeyman. I'll post a few more thoughts tomorrow. I suspect there will be some  confusion (as with venture) if we dig into the journeyman maths.

[Awaclus]

Ehhh I'd think that'd be fairly kingdom dependent.  It can't give you diverse junk reliably in the same way Looters can.

Of course it can, especially if you have more than one opponent.

What is Swindler most likely to hit?  Copper.  Those turn into Curses, which offers no more variety than a Curser.  In most kingdoms, there will be 1-3 cards of each cost, and most of them will be, if not essential, then not necessarily undesirable.  $5s can be turned into Duchies, yes, and Potions, when in the game, are certainly a danger, but that's still not that high, and Swindler needs to hit them in the first place.  And keep in mind that Journeyman dislikes "bad" variety much more than "neutral" or "good" variety.

Though, by hitting Copper, you make naming Copper a much worse play.

[dondon151]

What is Swindler most likely to hit?  Copper.  Those turn into Curses, which offers no more variety than a Curser.  In most kingdoms, there will be 1-3 cards of each cost, and most of them will be, if not essential, then not necessarily undesirable.  $5s can be turned into Duchies, yes, and Potions, when in the game, are certainly a danger, but that's still not that high, and Swindler needs to hit them in the first place.  And keep in mind that Journeyman dislikes "bad" variety much more than "neutral" or "good" variety.

This entire post is a bit of a non sequitur. I can guarantee you that if you play a Swindler-in-an-engine game or a slog against 2 other opponents, your deck will go to shit, whether or not you subscribe to Copper-trashing rhetoric.

[werothegreat]

What is Swindler most likely to hit?  Copper.  Those turn into Curses, which offers no more variety than a Curser.  In most kingdoms, there will be 1-3 cards of each cost, and most of them will be, if not essential, then not necessarily undesirable.  $5s can be turned into Duchies, yes, and Potions, when in the game, are certainly a danger, but that's still not that high, and Swindler needs to hit them in the first place.  And keep in mind that Journeyman dislikes "bad" variety much more than "neutral" or "good" variety.

This entire post is a bit of a non sequitur. I can guarantee you that if you play a Swindler-in-an-engine game or a slog against 2 other opponents, your deck will go to shit, whether or not you subscribe to Copper-trashing rhetoric.

What?  This isn't like, some obscure ideological tenet I'm spouting.  I'm describing what Swindler generally does to a deck.  That is not a non sequitur.  I was putting forth how Swindler is not as reliable a deck junker as a Looter.  Yes, Swindler can turn your Journeymen into Duchies, but you're not going to have a high concentration of them in your deck.  In Big Money, there will be far more Silvers and Golds, both of which are normally Swindled into themselves (Silver sometimes into a Swindler).  In engines, engine parts will often also have to be Swindled into themselves.  Swindler hits Border Village?  What do you do, give them a Gold, or another Border Village (and another engine part along with it)?  I've played enough with Swindler to know from experience that the amount of damage it can do is very very kingdom-dependent, which is pretty much the definition of not reliable, unlike Looters.

tl;dr: Looters are guaranteed to provide "bad" junk variety, Swindler, while still providing junk (not denying that), does not reliably provide junk variety.

[Powerman]

What is Swindler most likely to hit?  Copper.  Those turn into Curses, which offers no more variety than a Curser.  In most kingdoms, there will be 1-3 cards of each cost, and most of them will be, if not essential, then not necessarily undesirable.  $5s can be turned into Duchies, yes, and Potions, when in the game, are certainly a danger, but that's still not that high, and Swindler needs to hit them in the first place.  And keep in mind that Journeyman dislikes "bad" variety much more than "neutral" or "good" variety.

This entire post is a bit of a non sequitur. I can guarantee you that if you play a Swindler-in-an-engine game or a slog against 2 other opponents, your deck will go to shit, whether or not you subscribe to Copper-trashing rhetoric.

What?  This isn't like, some obscure ideological tenet I'm spouting.  I'm describing what Swindler generally does to a deck.  That is not a non sequitur.  I was putting forth how Swindler is not as reliable a deck junker as a Looter.  Yes, Swindler can turn your Journeymen into Duchies, but you're not going to have a high concentration of them in your deck.  In Big Money, there will be far more Silvers and Golds, both of which are normally Swindled into themselves (Silver sometimes into a Swindler).  In engines, engine parts will often also have to be Swindled into themselves.  Swindler hits Border Village?  What do you do, give them a Gold, or another Border Village (and another engine part along with it)?  I've played enough with Swindler to know from experience that the amount of damage it can do is very very kingdom-dependent, which is pretty much the definition of not reliable, unlike Looters.

tl;dr: Looters are guaranteed to provide "bad" junk variety, Swindler, while still providing junk (not denying that), does not reliably provide junk variety.

Gold yes, but there is very normally another $3 worse than silver for a BM-ish deck.  Adding a woodcutter / chancellor / develop / oracle / black market / etc. as a replacement for silver will hurt journeyman-bm a lot.

[dondon151]

Swindler being not "reliable" doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt Journeyman more than it hurts other cards. Introducing more cards that you can't skip and don't want to dead draw means that the value of Journeyman approaches that of a Smithy.

You can't play a Swindler game and pretend like it'll do nothing to your deck because it's an unreliable junker. That's the easiest way to lose against Swindler.

[werothegreat]

Swindler being not "reliable" doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt Journeyman more than it hurts other cards. Introducing more cards that you can't skip and don't want to dead draw means that the value of Journeyman approaches that of a Smithy.

You can't play a Swindler game and pretend like it'll do nothing to your deck because it's an unreliable junker. That's the easiest way to lose against Swindler.

Journeyman being hurt more is still kingdom dependent.  Yes, Swindler is a good Attack.  Does it hurt Journeyman more than other cards?  Depends on the kingdom.

[werothegreat]

I added a paragraph that I feel is a compromise.

[WanderingWinder]

Swindler being not "reliable" doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt Journeyman more than it hurts other cards. Introducing more cards that you can't skip and don't want to dead draw means that the value of Journeyman approaches that of a Smithy.

You can't play a Swindler game and pretend like it'll do nothing to your deck because it's an unreliable junker. That's the easiest way to lose against Swindler.

Journeyman being hurt more is still kingdom dependent.  Yes, Swindler is a good Attack.  Does it hurt Journeyman more than other cards?  Depends on the kingdom.

If you're going to say 'Depends on the kingdom', while you are technically correct (the best kind of correct), you basically shouldn't be writing an article. I mean, there are OF COURSE edge cases. But does Swindler hurt Journeyman more than other cards? Yes. More than every other card? No, probably not. More than most other cards? Of course. In a way which is strategically significant? Well, maybe.

[werothegreat]

Swindler being not "reliable" doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt Journeyman more than it hurts other cards. Introducing more cards that you can't skip and don't want to dead draw means that the value of Journeyman approaches that of a Smithy.

You can't play a Swindler game and pretend like it'll do nothing to your deck because it's an unreliable junker. That's the easiest way to lose against Swindler.

Journeyman being hurt more is still kingdom dependent.  Yes, Swindler is a good Attack.  Does it hurt Journeyman more than other cards?  Depends on the kingdom.

If you're going to say 'Depends on the kingdom', while you are technically correct (the best kind of correct), you basically shouldn't be writing an article. I mean, there are OF COURSE edge cases. But does Swindler hurt Journeyman more than other cards? Yes. More than every other card? No, probably not. More than most other cards? Of course. In a way which is strategically significant? Well, maybe.

I believe I covered the different cases in the paragraphs I added.

Also, next article I write, I'm just going to put "depends on the kingdom" under every heading.

[eHalcyon]

In the countering section, you say that "like Hunting Party, Journeyman wants a deck with as little variation as possible".  I still think this is incorrect.  As has been mentioned already, it just doesn't want diverse junk.  If you variety of cards are all good cards that you don't want to skip, that's perfectly fine. 

I still don't see the point of name-dropping Pillage, since it doesn't hurt Journeyman any more than it does any other card, does it?

You still name Scout in synergies... not sure if that's good, especially since you've already removed all other mentions of Scout in the article.

Here's a possible synergy -- slow/selective trashers.  I'm thinking cards like Hermit or Spice Merchant.  They can help you remove some junk from your deck, but not all... but if all your Estates are gone, naming Copper (or Province in the late game) is extra effective.

A possible anti-synergy -- strong trashing like Chapel.  This isn't to say that Journeyman is weaker with Chapel, but since you are getting rid of most of your junk anyway, Journeyman's benefit is not as useful.  After you've removed all the junk, Journeyman is not much more than an expensive Smithy.  However, it becomes more useful again when you start to green.

[werothegreat]

In the countering section, you say that "like Hunting Party, Journeyman wants a deck with as little variation as possible".  I still think this is incorrect.  As has been mentioned already, it just doesn't want diverse junk.  If you variety of cards are all good cards that you don't want to skip, that's perfectly fine. 

I still don't see the point of name-dropping Pillage, since it doesn't hurt Journeyman any more than it does any other card, does it?

You still name Scout in synergies... not sure if that's good, especially since you've already removed all other mentions of Scout in the article.

Here's a possible synergy -- slow/selective trashers.  I'm thinking cards like Hermit or Spice Merchant.  They can help you remove some junk from your deck, but not all... but if all your Estates are gone, naming Copper (or Province in the late game) is extra effective.

A possible anti-synergy -- strong trashing like Chapel.  This isn't to say that Journeyman is weaker with Chapel, but since you are getting rid of most of your junk anyway, Journeyman's benefit is not as useful.  After you've removed all the junk, Journeyman is not much more than an expensive Smithy.  However, it becomes more useful again when you start to green.

Noted.

[werothegreat]

Anything else?

[DG]

Yes I've still got a few questions about simple journeyman + treasure decks that could do with an answer (or a simulator):
- is journeyman stronger in a colony game? - probably yes due to period when you can name coppers
- do you want more than one journeyman in a basic province game? - probably not
- when do you start greening with a journeyman deck compared to a smithy? - similar time maybe, even though journeyman will stay stronger into the end game. Journeyman can yield very early 8 coin hands that presumably still need to be gold.
- are there many times when you would buy estates ahead of duchies to preserve the journeyman drawing? - probably not

It's probably obvious but might be worth mentioning that journeyman will be really good with kingdom treasures (bank, counterfeit, hoard, maybe contraband).

I'm not at all sure about the section in the article about junking and swindlers. It seems like you're viewing journeyman as a card that draws your treasures, when it fact it doesn't draw your <somethings>. It's usually the same but when it comes to attacks and junking the difference is important. The journeyman is always going to be better than a smithy since it can choose <something> to skip, even in junked decks. Diversity isn't an issue (journeyman is just bad where is a smithy is bad). Bloated decks can lower the added value of journeyman since the chance of a named card being at the top of the draw deck is probably lower than for a smaller deck. More straightforwardly the journeyman can negate some top of deck attacks but it still doesn't get stronger against a ghost ship.

[Warfreak2]

Swindler vs. BM/Journeyman, for sure I'm going to turn your Silvers into Swindlers, if there isn't anything worse. It's rarely correct to give you back what you actually wanted to add to your deck. Likewise, with Gold, if there is any other $6 at all, even Goons, you're getting that, because even if it's objectively a better card, it's worse for your deck.

As for Journeyman in Chapelled decks, I think it's not a nombo - you can skip your stop cards in order to more reliably draw your deck, which means you can have more stop cards without gumming up. We've all had unreliable engines producing turns like "Village, Smithy, Bridge, play two Coppers".

There's possibly a synergy with Poor House worth mentioning - always name Copper, and your Poor Houses stay valuable.

[ftl]

There's possibly a synergy with Poor House worth mentioning - always name Copper, and your Poor Houses stay valuable.

I don't think that works so well?

If you're going to play Journeyman and then Poor House, you need a village first. And if you're doing that, then you probably also want +Buy because otherwise, one province per turn with a fancy Journeyman/PH/village thing won't overtake journeyman+BM. And once you've got that in there, you probably play more villages/journeymen to draw all that together, and then why aren't you just drawing your whole deck anyway? Is it really better to keep your 7 coppers discarded to power up your Poor Houses than to just draw those 7 coppers for $7 per turn?

[Warfreak2]

you need a village [...] you probably also want +Buy [...] play more villages/journeymen to draw all that together

Obviously I'm talking about an engine which needs villages and +buy, not BM/Poor House.

Is it really better to keep your 7 coppers discarded to power up your Poor Houses than to just draw those 7 coppers for $7 per turn?

Yes. Yes it is. You only need two Poor Houses to beat the $7 you get from those Coppers. Four is enough to double-Province, but you really need to not have those Coppers in your hand.

Here's a game where I used Inn and Hamlet to get those Coppers out of my hand. Journeyman wouldn't have worked as smoothly, so it's a synergy rather than a combo.

[ftl]

In that game, there wasn't the choice of having terminal draw at all - counting house was the only way to increase handsize. Or KC-hamlet. So you didn't exactly have that choice there. Not to mention that 4 provinces and 3 duchies in 19 turns on a board with King's Court and +Buy isn't that impressive of a haul.

Inn and Hamlet naturally decrease your handsize in exchange for offering you goodies - perfect  for discarding coppers and then using poor house. Journeyman, on the other hand, increases your handsize - if you've got a village, it'll be sitting their tempting you to draw your deck anyway.

I can believe that there will be edge cases where you'd rather have the poor houses and use journeyman to keep coppers out of your hand - maybe KC is around and you want to megaturn off poor houses, but have no way of discarding from hand. But I think that's an edge case rather than the common case. In general, it'll be much more common, if Journeyman and Poor house are on the board, to draw your whole deck and then either discard the coppers, or trash the coppers, or to skip the poorhouses altogether and invest in alternate ways of generating money that better take advantage of the large handsizes an engine gives you.

[Davio]

With Journeyman, maybe more so than with other terminal drawers, I think it's essential to think about what you want to achieve by playing it. You can achieve many things, heck, you can even play it like a Scout.

What I mean is, say you already have $8 and are close to a reshuffle, but not quite there. This means you have good cards in hand this turn (some Golds and the Journeyman) that you don't want to miss that reshuffle. You could name "whatever is not in your deck" and just draw the top 3 or you could name a bad card and hope those are skipped for your next hand. Or you could just not play the Journeyman if you have just 2 cards on your deck.

[werothegreat]

Yes I've still got a few questions about simple journeyman + treasure decks that could do with an answer (or a simulator):
- is journeyman stronger in a colony game? - probably yes due to period when you can name coppers
- do you want more than one journeyman in a basic province game? - probably not
- when do you start greening with a journeyman deck compared to a smithy? - similar time maybe, even though journeyman will stay stronger into the end game. Journeyman can yield very early 8 coin hands that presumably still need to be gold.
- are there many times when you would buy estates ahead of duchies to preserve the journeyman drawing? - probably not

I wouldn't be able to give an objective answer without a simulator.  My guesses, though:
-Equal strength
-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?
-I would say as soon as you reach $8, if you're doing Big Money
-I would say no.  If you're at the point where you're Duchy dancing, you should be buying Duchies, not Estates.