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[werothegreat]

(WIP)

Journeyman is an incredible variation on the terminal draw theme.  Other cards Attack, or net more cards, or allow you to sift cards from your hand, or simply hang around until your next turn to do it again.  Journeyman is up there with the best of them, but it requires some finesse to use.  In the hands of the amateur player, Journeyman is no better than a Smithy.  But to the player who knows their deck back to front, keeping exquisite track of their draws and purchases, Journeyman is pretty damn good.

What does it do?

Journeyman essentially draws three cards that are not a specified card you don't want.  That specified card gets skipped over, and all the copies of it are discarded once you've finished drawing.  This is insanely powerful.  Deck full of Curses?  Traipse right over them.  Out of Actions this turn?  Skip right to your Treasures.  It's almost a "fixed" Smithy - it draws exactly what you want.

But, you have to know exactly what you want. 

How do I use it properly?

One useful analogy for Dominion cards is to think of them as little computer programs, and as all programmers know, computers are stupid.  They do exactly what you tell them to do, so if you tell them to do something dumb, they'll give you a dumb product.  Journeyman, while powerful, requires you to have an intimate knowledge of your deck.  That means keeping track of what cards you've already seen this shuffle, and keeping track of what cards you put into your deck.  Optimally, you should be naming the current undesirable card of which the highest concentration remains in your deck.  Let's look at several situations.

a) My deck is full of Curses.  Well, name Curse, dummy!

b) My deck is full of Ruins.  You're screwed.  Try to guess which Ruins you have the most of, but Journeyman really doesn't like Looters (or Shelters, for that matter).

c) I only have one Action left.  This is where your deck-tracking skills come into play - which Action do you have the most of left in your deck?  You want to maximize the number of Treasures (or even Victory cards or Curses, to make your next turn better) coming into your hand.  This card is not for the new player or the faint of heart - if you're playing in a low-+Action kingdom, you need to keep a very careful eye on what's in your deck (which advanced players should be doing anyway).

d) I have plenty of Actions left, and lots of Village cards.  Honestly?  Name Copper.  You have lots of those little buggers in your deck (barring good trashing), and none of them are going to help you draw more cards.  But be careful about doing this too close to a reshuffle, otherwise you'll find yourself starting your next turn with a deck full of Copper.

e) I'm going for a Big Money deck.  At the beginning, name Estate, and as your deck starts to fill with Silvers and Golds, name Copper.  Once you've gotten a few Provinces, start naming that instead.

f) I only have 3-5 cards left in my deck.  Name something ridiculous, like the Queen of Hearts or something, so that you only draw three cards.  Better to have crap than to have your Journeyman miss the reshuffle!

There are also a couple of more interesting instances.  For example, if you have Tunnels, obviously name Tunnel - not only will you skip over "useless" cards, you'll be reeling in Golds as well, which you'll be more than happy to draw later on.  Or, if you've managed to trash away all your junk, name your now useless trasher - you don't need that taking up space in your hand, and by this point you're usually comfortable drawing anything else in your deck.

For more advanced players, assuming good trashing conditions, keep in mind what is in your hand and what you need.  If you played one Village and have three Journeymen in hand, it might be a good idea to name Journeyman (or another such card), to try to get directly to your Villages.  Or if you have all your +Action cards in hand, name a non-drawing card instead.  Also bear in mind that if you seem to have all your Curses/Ruins in your hand already, it might be better to name Copper, so you can draw some better stuff, and maybe actually buy something costing more than $3.

What other cards help my Journeymen?

If you have the Actions to spare, any card that top-decks can synergize with Journeyman.  If your Courtyard drew your Journeyman, put an Estate or Copper on top of your deck and name that.  Did an opponent's Attack activate your Secret Chamber?  Well, let's just put those Curses right on top there.  But in general, Journeyman is so good at what it does, that it needs very little help.

Light trashing is a boon to Journeyman - Estate trashers like Hermit can allow you to name Copper with impunity, and later Province.  Heavy trashing, on the other hand, turns your Journeymen into expensive Smithies, at least, until you start to green.

How do I stop my opponent's Journeymen?

As mentioned above, Looters are very well equipped at stopping Journeymen, since Journeymen despise diversity.  Similar to Hunting Party, Journeyman wants a deck with as little variation in "useless" cards as possible, so that there's as little choice possible for what to name.  With five differently named junk cards being thrown into his deck, the Journeyman player will soon be very unhappy.  And while discard Attacks in general usually won't be enough to stop a Journeyman player (Ghost Ship may actually help them), a Pillage can knock out a key Village from his hand, stopping his engine, or knock out his Journeyman, if he's going for a Big Money strategy.

In certain kingdoms, Swindler can be useful in stopping a Journeyman player.  Swindler, in general, is a good Attack, and can stop a wide variety of decks, but this is not especially true for Journeyman unless there are cards in the kingdom that can be Swindled for your engine parts to increase the number of "dead" cards Journeyman will want to skip over.  For example, if you're using Worker's Village as your Village, and there are Potion cards, you may find yourself running out of +Actions cards.  And of course, Journeymen can be Swindled into Duchies, and Silvers can be Swindled into Swindlers.  But in order for Swindler to really throw a monkey wrench into Journeyman's bad-card-skipping, there need to be suitably "useless" (to the Journeyman player) cards at most costs in the kingdom - usually unwanted terminals, as these can stall both an engine and a Big Money strategy.

Conclusion

Journeyman is indubitably powerful, but not necessarily unstoppable.  Keep track of what's left in your deck, and remember that if something is in your hand, it's not in your deck (i.e. don't name that card).

Synergies:
*Homogeneous decks
*Engines
*Tunnel
*Top-deckers
*Light trashing

Anti-synergies:
*Ruins
*Shelters
*Heavy trashing

[SirPeebles]

Thanks for writing this.

Did you mean Hunting Party when you wrote Hunting Grounds?  Also, Pillage doesn't strike me as an anti-synergy.  I mean, how is being Pillaged here any worse than usual?

[werothegreat]

Thanks for writing this.

My pleasure!

Did you mean Hunting Party when you wrote Hunting Grounds?

Yes.

Also, Pillage doesn't strike me as an anti-synergy.  I mean, how is being Pillaged here any worse than usual?

Murrrr.

[Warfreak2]

I don't think naming Copper is often a good idea for BM. Often, drawing three Coppers would be fine, or if you need $4 more, in a deck with plenty of Silver and Gold, it's not so likely to draw three Coppers. I think better advice is to name Estate until you have three Provinces, then name Estate or Province depending on what you remember seeing so far this shuffle (if you don't have a good memory for that, maybe one is in your hand now, so name the other).

Another situation is if your deck doesn't have many cards left, it may be better to name a card you don't have in your deck (e.g., the Ace of Spades, or Pikachu) so that your Journeyman doesn't miss a reshuffle.

If your hand already has a lot of your other junk, naming Copper must be correct, not just because it's the worst card remaining in your deck, but because Copper won't enough for you to buy anything nice. But this is an exception.

I don't know if simulators can handle deck tracking, but if someone has simulated it, of course I'll defer to them.

[eHalcyon]

Journeyman is not the best terminal draw.  I'd give that to Wharf.  Or if we go by Qvist's rankings (and make the fairly big assumption that the best terminal draw is a $5 card), then technically the best terminal draw is Witch.

On deck inspection -- there's also Apothecary... but I'm not sold on advocating either one.  Certainly not Scout.  There is some mild synergy there, but Scout is so weak that it's probably not going to help your Journeyman at all.  If you keep the point in the article, it may be a place for a joke/warning about how Scout might be the card you should name for Journeyman.

Is Tournament actually an anti-synergy?  I think in an engine setting where you have +actions, it isn't at all.  In BM, it's less certain.  But I don't think Journeyman hates diversity that much -- it just doesn't want diversity of weak cards, like Ruins as you've pointed out.

[Warfreak2]

Seconded, it's unlikely that you'd want Journeyman to skip over your prizes!

[werothegreat]

Seconded, it's unlikely that you'd want Journeyman to skip over your prizes!

You're right, I'm dumb.  I should sleep more.

[werothegreat]

Did some editing.  Check it.

[eHalcyon]

Do you think Journeyman is actually better than Wharf then?

Still dunno about that Scout mention, even watered down.

While you're talking about top-decking, Ghost Ship might deserve a mention?  You can put Estates back and skip them with Journeyman, for example.  Journeyman is sort of like Farming Village that way, I guess, but it's more flexible because you could do it with, say, Copper instead.  I see that you talk about Ghost Ship in the next section though.

[werothegreat]

Do you think Journeyman is actually better than Wharf then?

Still dunno about that Scout mention, even watered down.

While you're talking about top-decking, Ghost Ship might deserve a mention?  You can put Estates back and skip them with Journeyman, for example.  Journeyman is sort of like Farming Village that way, I guess, but it's more flexible because you could do it with, say, Copper instead.  I see that you talk about Ghost Ship in the next section though.

I did mention Ghost Ship.  I'm doing some more editing.

[Awaclus]

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.

[AHoppy]

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.

Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot

[Awaclus]

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.

Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot

But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.

Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper

You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.

[werothegreat]

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.

Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot

But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.

Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper

You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.

Remember, this is working under the assumption that you have good trashing, and thus you no longer have Estates and Coppers.  In this case, you'd rather find your other Journeymen, rather than yet another Village, so you can draw your entire deck this turn.

[SirPeebles]

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.

Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot

But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.

Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper

You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.

Remember, this is working under the assumption that you have good trashing, and thus you no longer have Estates and Coppers.  In this case, you'd rather find your other Journeymen, rather than yet another Village, so you can draw your entire deck this turn.

No, you'd rather get the Village, since that would be more beneficial to drawing your entire deck.  Really.  You'd be better off naming Province, Silver, Chapel, Mountebank, or what not if your goal is to draw your full deck.  There is no reason to skip over cantrips unless you specifically want them to be in your discard (perhaps towards triggering a nice shuffle, or something).

[AHoppy]

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.

Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot

But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.

Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper

You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.

Remember, this is working under the assumption that you have good trashing, and thus you no longer have Estates and Coppers.  In this case, you'd rather find your other Journeymen, rather than yet another Village, so you can draw your entire deck this turn.

No, you'd rather get the Village, since that would be more beneficial to drawing your entire deck.  Really.  You'd be better off naming Province, Silver, Chapel, Mountebank, or what not if your goal is to draw your full deck.  There is no reason to skip over cantrips unless you specifically want them to be in your discard (perhaps towards triggering a nice shuffle, or something).

Yay! Again I'm proven wrong in one of these articles Ah well.  I was thinking that though because I had just played a game where I named village multiple times because I had just drawn my Journeyman all alone.  With an action remaining, yeah, name a VP or copper or something

[werothegreat]

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.

Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot

But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.

Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper

You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.

Remember, this is working under the assumption that you have good trashing, and thus you no longer have Estates and Coppers.  In this case, you'd rather find your other Journeymen, rather than yet another Village, so you can draw your entire deck this turn.

No, you'd rather get the Village, since that would be more beneficial to drawing your entire deck.  Really.  You'd be better off naming Province, Silver, Chapel, Mountebank, or what not if your goal is to draw your full deck.  There is no reason to skip over cantrips unless you specifically want them to be in your discard (perhaps towards triggering a nice shuffle, or something).

Hmmm.  Makes sense.

[ragingduckd]

Journeyman is the best non-Attack terminal draw card.
...
Hunting Grounds is too expensive, Embassy effectively draws fewer cards... okay, maybe Wharf is better, but that's only because its Duration effect is so ridiculous.

When opening with a controversial claim, it's usually good to provide some justification.

Your argument boils down to:
1. "Journeyman at $5 is better than HG at $6"
2. "Embassy only draws 2 cards"
3. "I didn't mean it... Wharf is better"

I question #1. HG has a bigger edge over Journeyman than Journeyman has over Envoy or even Smithy. And that's in spite of the fact that $4 to $5 is usually a much larger power difference than $5 to $6.

#2 is misleading. Embassy draws only two cards on net, but you can choose your discards from among the bad cards you had in your starting hand. The stronger argument against Embassy is the free Silver, without which Embassy vs Journeyman would be no comparison whatever.

#3 is accurate.

Of course, there are a few other contenders for "best non-attack terminal draw:" Courtyard, Masquerade, Envoy, Vault, Catacombs, ...

[Schneau]

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.

Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot

But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.

Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper

You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.

This is an excellent point. If you have at least 1 extra action, you'll never want to name a cantrip (unless that cantrip is one you might not want to play, like Rats).

[werothegreat]

Journeyman is the best non-Attack terminal draw card.
...
Hunting Grounds is too expensive, Embassy effectively draws fewer cards... okay, maybe Wharf is better, but that's only because its Duration effect is so ridiculous.

When opening with a controversial claim, it's usually good to provide some justification.

Your argument boils down to:
1. "Journeyman at $5 is better than HG at $6"
2. "Embassy only draws 2 cards"
3. "I didn't mean it... Wharf is better"

I question #1. HG has a bigger edge over Journeyman than Journeyman has over Envoy or even Smithy. And that's in spite of the fact that $4 to $5 is usually a much larger power difference than $5 to $6.

#2 is misleading. Embassy draws only two cards on net, but you can choose your discards from among the bad cards you had in your starting hand. The stronger argument against Embassy is the free Silver, without which Embassy vs Journeyman would be no comparison whatever.

#3 is accurate.

Of course, there are a few other contenders for "best non-attack terminal draw:" Courtyard, Masquerade, Envoy, Vault, Catacombs, ...

$6 is in direct competition with Gold, and while Hunting Grounds is awesome, it doesn't have Journeyman's filtering effect.  In a lot of cases, Journeyman's filtering will be better than Catacombs, and in similar cases, better than Embassy as well, especially since Journeyman nets more cards (though I'll grant you that when your junk is in your hand, Embassy may have an edge).  The Silver is just icing on the cake.  None of these are bad cards - it's just Journeyman is really really really good.

[werothegreat]

Would you all be happier if I changed the intro to "Journeyman is ONE OF the best terminal draw cards"?

[ragingduckd]

Would you all be happier if I changed the intro to "Journeyman is ONE OF the best terminal draw cards"?

Sort of. That's not really true either (Witch, Cultist, etc).

The substance of your article is how to play JM, not how strong it is. You can either add a lot more substantive arguments about its strength, or you can limit your claims to what your audience is ready to accept.

If you have to water down your claim to "JM is one of the best terminal draw cards that isn't an attack" then you might as well open with something else. And you do, because the general consensus is that JM is good but not amazing. Any really bold claim is going to immediately turn off top players while leading novice players astray.

[werothegreat]

Would you all be happier if I changed the intro to "Journeyman is ONE OF the best terminal draw cards"?

Sort of. That's not really true either (Witch, Cultist, etc).

The substance of your article is how to play JM, not how strong it is. You can either add a lot more substantive arguments about its strength, or you can limit your claims to what your audience is ready to accept.

If you have to water down your claim to "JM is one of the best terminal draw cards that isn't an attack" then you might as well open with something else. And you do, because the general consensus is that JM is good but not amazing. Any really bold claim is going to immediately turn off top players while leading novice players astray.

Changed the opening.

[Awaclus]

I like the current opening.

[AJD]

Would you all be happier if I changed the intro to "Journeyman is ONE OF the best terminal draw cards"?

Sort of. That's not really true either (Witch, Cultist, etc).

This is an interesting place for hairsplitting. I'd say that Witch is a good card, and it's a terminal-draw card, but not a good terminal-draw card. It's good because it's a curser; it's not very effective as a source of terminal draw.

[werothegreat]

Any other suggestions?

[Warfreak2]

I think Swindler is probably a counter, as it also gives you diverse junk.

[werothegreat]

I think Swindler is probably a counter, as it also gives you diverse junk.

Ehhh I'd think that'd be fairly kingdom dependent.  It can't give you diverse junk reliably in the same way Looters can.

Anybody else?  Or is the article ready to go up on the wiki?

[dondon151]

Ehhh I'd think that'd be fairly kingdom dependent.  It can't give you diverse junk reliably in the same way Looters can.

Of course it can, especially if you have more than one opponent.

[werothegreat]

Ehhh I'd think that'd be fairly kingdom dependent.  It can't give you diverse junk reliably in the same way Looters can.

Of course it can, especially if you have more than one opponent.

What is Swindler most likely to hit?  Copper.  Those turn into Curses, which offers no more variety than a Curser.  In most kingdoms, there will be 1-3 cards of each cost, and most of them will be, if not essential, then not necessarily undesirable.  $5s can be turned into Duchies, yes, and Potions, when in the game, are certainly a danger, but that's still not that high, and Swindler needs to hit them in the first place.  And keep in mind that Journeyman dislikes "bad" variety much more than "neutral" or "good" variety.

[DG]

If you have a deck of 20 cards with 3 estates, your journeyman has a chance to skip of those 3 cards if you call estate. That doesn't depend on whether the rest of that 20 card deck is swindled curses or gold. However you could use different measures to see how attacks like swindler can change the value of a journeyman. I'll post a few more thoughts tomorrow. I suspect there will be some  confusion (as with venture) if we dig into the journeyman maths.

[Awaclus]

Ehhh I'd think that'd be fairly kingdom dependent.  It can't give you diverse junk reliably in the same way Looters can.

Of course it can, especially if you have more than one opponent.

What is Swindler most likely to hit?  Copper.  Those turn into Curses, which offers no more variety than a Curser.  In most kingdoms, there will be 1-3 cards of each cost, and most of them will be, if not essential, then not necessarily undesirable.  $5s can be turned into Duchies, yes, and Potions, when in the game, are certainly a danger, but that's still not that high, and Swindler needs to hit them in the first place.  And keep in mind that Journeyman dislikes "bad" variety much more than "neutral" or "good" variety.

Though, by hitting Copper, you make naming Copper a much worse play.

[dondon151]

What is Swindler most likely to hit?  Copper.  Those turn into Curses, which offers no more variety than a Curser.  In most kingdoms, there will be 1-3 cards of each cost, and most of them will be, if not essential, then not necessarily undesirable.  $5s can be turned into Duchies, yes, and Potions, when in the game, are certainly a danger, but that's still not that high, and Swindler needs to hit them in the first place.  And keep in mind that Journeyman dislikes "bad" variety much more than "neutral" or "good" variety.

This entire post is a bit of a non sequitur. I can guarantee you that if you play a Swindler-in-an-engine game or a slog against 2 other opponents, your deck will go to shit, whether or not you subscribe to Copper-trashing rhetoric.

[werothegreat]

What is Swindler most likely to hit?  Copper.  Those turn into Curses, which offers no more variety than a Curser.  In most kingdoms, there will be 1-3 cards of each cost, and most of them will be, if not essential, then not necessarily undesirable.  $5s can be turned into Duchies, yes, and Potions, when in the game, are certainly a danger, but that's still not that high, and Swindler needs to hit them in the first place.  And keep in mind that Journeyman dislikes "bad" variety much more than "neutral" or "good" variety.

This entire post is a bit of a non sequitur. I can guarantee you that if you play a Swindler-in-an-engine game or a slog against 2 other opponents, your deck will go to shit, whether or not you subscribe to Copper-trashing rhetoric.

What?  This isn't like, some obscure ideological tenet I'm spouting.  I'm describing what Swindler generally does to a deck.  That is not a non sequitur.  I was putting forth how Swindler is not as reliable a deck junker as a Looter.  Yes, Swindler can turn your Journeymen into Duchies, but you're not going to have a high concentration of them in your deck.  In Big Money, there will be far more Silvers and Golds, both of which are normally Swindled into themselves (Silver sometimes into a Swindler).  In engines, engine parts will often also have to be Swindled into themselves.  Swindler hits Border Village?  What do you do, give them a Gold, or another Border Village (and another engine part along with it)?  I've played enough with Swindler to know from experience that the amount of damage it can do is very very kingdom-dependent, which is pretty much the definition of not reliable, unlike Looters.

tl;dr: Looters are guaranteed to provide "bad" junk variety, Swindler, while still providing junk (not denying that), does not reliably provide junk variety.

[Powerman]

What is Swindler most likely to hit?  Copper.  Those turn into Curses, which offers no more variety than a Curser.  In most kingdoms, there will be 1-3 cards of each cost, and most of them will be, if not essential, then not necessarily undesirable.  $5s can be turned into Duchies, yes, and Potions, when in the game, are certainly a danger, but that's still not that high, and Swindler needs to hit them in the first place.  And keep in mind that Journeyman dislikes "bad" variety much more than "neutral" or "good" variety.

This entire post is a bit of a non sequitur. I can guarantee you that if you play a Swindler-in-an-engine game or a slog against 2 other opponents, your deck will go to shit, whether or not you subscribe to Copper-trashing rhetoric.

What?  This isn't like, some obscure ideological tenet I'm spouting.  I'm describing what Swindler generally does to a deck.  That is not a non sequitur.  I was putting forth how Swindler is not as reliable a deck junker as a Looter.  Yes, Swindler can turn your Journeymen into Duchies, but you're not going to have a high concentration of them in your deck.  In Big Money, there will be far more Silvers and Golds, both of which are normally Swindled into themselves (Silver sometimes into a Swindler).  In engines, engine parts will often also have to be Swindled into themselves.  Swindler hits Border Village?  What do you do, give them a Gold, or another Border Village (and another engine part along with it)?  I've played enough with Swindler to know from experience that the amount of damage it can do is very very kingdom-dependent, which is pretty much the definition of not reliable, unlike Looters.

tl;dr: Looters are guaranteed to provide "bad" junk variety, Swindler, while still providing junk (not denying that), does not reliably provide junk variety.

Gold yes, but there is very normally another $3 worse than silver for a BM-ish deck.  Adding a woodcutter / chancellor / develop / oracle / black market / etc. as a replacement for silver will hurt journeyman-bm a lot.

[dondon151]

Swindler being not "reliable" doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt Journeyman more than it hurts other cards. Introducing more cards that you can't skip and don't want to dead draw means that the value of Journeyman approaches that of a Smithy.

You can't play a Swindler game and pretend like it'll do nothing to your deck because it's an unreliable junker. That's the easiest way to lose against Swindler.

[werothegreat]

Swindler being not "reliable" doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt Journeyman more than it hurts other cards. Introducing more cards that you can't skip and don't want to dead draw means that the value of Journeyman approaches that of a Smithy.

You can't play a Swindler game and pretend like it'll do nothing to your deck because it's an unreliable junker. That's the easiest way to lose against Swindler.

Journeyman being hurt more is still kingdom dependent.  Yes, Swindler is a good Attack.  Does it hurt Journeyman more than other cards?  Depends on the kingdom.

[werothegreat]

I added a paragraph that I feel is a compromise.

[WanderingWinder]

Swindler being not "reliable" doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt Journeyman more than it hurts other cards. Introducing more cards that you can't skip and don't want to dead draw means that the value of Journeyman approaches that of a Smithy.

You can't play a Swindler game and pretend like it'll do nothing to your deck because it's an unreliable junker. That's the easiest way to lose against Swindler.

Journeyman being hurt more is still kingdom dependent.  Yes, Swindler is a good Attack.  Does it hurt Journeyman more than other cards?  Depends on the kingdom.

If you're going to say 'Depends on the kingdom', while you are technically correct (the best kind of correct), you basically shouldn't be writing an article. I mean, there are OF COURSE edge cases. But does Swindler hurt Journeyman more than other cards? Yes. More than every other card? No, probably not. More than most other cards? Of course. In a way which is strategically significant? Well, maybe.

[werothegreat]

Swindler being not "reliable" doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt Journeyman more than it hurts other cards. Introducing more cards that you can't skip and don't want to dead draw means that the value of Journeyman approaches that of a Smithy.

You can't play a Swindler game and pretend like it'll do nothing to your deck because it's an unreliable junker. That's the easiest way to lose against Swindler.

Journeyman being hurt more is still kingdom dependent.  Yes, Swindler is a good Attack.  Does it hurt Journeyman more than other cards?  Depends on the kingdom.

If you're going to say 'Depends on the kingdom', while you are technically correct (the best kind of correct), you basically shouldn't be writing an article. I mean, there are OF COURSE edge cases. But does Swindler hurt Journeyman more than other cards? Yes. More than every other card? No, probably not. More than most other cards? Of course. In a way which is strategically significant? Well, maybe.

I believe I covered the different cases in the paragraphs I added.

Also, next article I write, I'm just going to put "depends on the kingdom" under every heading.

[eHalcyon]

In the countering section, you say that "like Hunting Party, Journeyman wants a deck with as little variation as possible".  I still think this is incorrect.  As has been mentioned already, it just doesn't want diverse junk.  If you variety of cards are all good cards that you don't want to skip, that's perfectly fine. 

I still don't see the point of name-dropping Pillage, since it doesn't hurt Journeyman any more than it does any other card, does it?

You still name Scout in synergies... not sure if that's good, especially since you've already removed all other mentions of Scout in the article.

Here's a possible synergy -- slow/selective trashers.  I'm thinking cards like Hermit or Spice Merchant.  They can help you remove some junk from your deck, but not all... but if all your Estates are gone, naming Copper (or Province in the late game) is extra effective.

A possible anti-synergy -- strong trashing like Chapel.  This isn't to say that Journeyman is weaker with Chapel, but since you are getting rid of most of your junk anyway, Journeyman's benefit is not as useful.  After you've removed all the junk, Journeyman is not much more than an expensive Smithy.  However, it becomes more useful again when you start to green.

[werothegreat]

In the countering section, you say that "like Hunting Party, Journeyman wants a deck with as little variation as possible".  I still think this is incorrect.  As has been mentioned already, it just doesn't want diverse junk.  If you variety of cards are all good cards that you don't want to skip, that's perfectly fine. 

I still don't see the point of name-dropping Pillage, since it doesn't hurt Journeyman any more than it does any other card, does it?

You still name Scout in synergies... not sure if that's good, especially since you've already removed all other mentions of Scout in the article.

Here's a possible synergy -- slow/selective trashers.  I'm thinking cards like Hermit or Spice Merchant.  They can help you remove some junk from your deck, but not all... but if all your Estates are gone, naming Copper (or Province in the late game) is extra effective.

A possible anti-synergy -- strong trashing like Chapel.  This isn't to say that Journeyman is weaker with Chapel, but since you are getting rid of most of your junk anyway, Journeyman's benefit is not as useful.  After you've removed all the junk, Journeyman is not much more than an expensive Smithy.  However, it becomes more useful again when you start to green.

Noted.

[werothegreat]

Anything else?

[DG]

Yes I've still got a few questions about simple journeyman + treasure decks that could do with an answer (or a simulator):
- is journeyman stronger in a colony game? - probably yes due to period when you can name coppers
- do you want more than one journeyman in a basic province game? - probably not
- when do you start greening with a journeyman deck compared to a smithy? - similar time maybe, even though journeyman will stay stronger into the end game. Journeyman can yield very early 8 coin hands that presumably still need to be gold.
- are there many times when you would buy estates ahead of duchies to preserve the journeyman drawing? - probably not

It's probably obvious but might be worth mentioning that journeyman will be really good with kingdom treasures (bank, counterfeit, hoard, maybe contraband).

I'm not at all sure about the section in the article about junking and swindlers. It seems like you're viewing journeyman as a card that draws your treasures, when it fact it doesn't draw your <somethings>. It's usually the same but when it comes to attacks and junking the difference is important. The journeyman is always going to be better than a smithy since it can choose <something> to skip, even in junked decks. Diversity isn't an issue (journeyman is just bad where is a smithy is bad). Bloated decks can lower the added value of journeyman since the chance of a named card being at the top of the draw deck is probably lower than for a smaller deck. More straightforwardly the journeyman can negate some top of deck attacks but it still doesn't get stronger against a ghost ship.

[Warfreak2]

Swindler vs. BM/Journeyman, for sure I'm going to turn your Silvers into Swindlers, if there isn't anything worse. It's rarely correct to give you back what you actually wanted to add to your deck. Likewise, with Gold, if there is any other $6 at all, even Goons, you're getting that, because even if it's objectively a better card, it's worse for your deck.

As for Journeyman in Chapelled decks, I think it's not a nombo - you can skip your stop cards in order to more reliably draw your deck, which means you can have more stop cards without gumming up. We've all had unreliable engines producing turns like "Village, Smithy, Bridge, play two Coppers".

There's possibly a synergy with Poor House worth mentioning - always name Copper, and your Poor Houses stay valuable.

[ftl]

There's possibly a synergy with Poor House worth mentioning - always name Copper, and your Poor Houses stay valuable.

I don't think that works so well?

If you're going to play Journeyman and then Poor House, you need a village first. And if you're doing that, then you probably also want +Buy because otherwise, one province per turn with a fancy Journeyman/PH/village thing won't overtake journeyman+BM. And once you've got that in there, you probably play more villages/journeymen to draw all that together, and then why aren't you just drawing your whole deck anyway? Is it really better to keep your 7 coppers discarded to power up your Poor Houses than to just draw those 7 coppers for $7 per turn?

[Warfreak2]

you need a village [...] you probably also want +Buy [...] play more villages/journeymen to draw all that together

Obviously I'm talking about an engine which needs villages and +buy, not BM/Poor House.

Is it really better to keep your 7 coppers discarded to power up your Poor Houses than to just draw those 7 coppers for $7 per turn?

Yes. Yes it is. You only need two Poor Houses to beat the $7 you get from those Coppers. Four is enough to double-Province, but you really need to not have those Coppers in your hand.

Here's a game where I used Inn and Hamlet to get those Coppers out of my hand. Journeyman wouldn't have worked as smoothly, so it's a synergy rather than a combo.

[ftl]

In that game, there wasn't the choice of having terminal draw at all - counting house was the only way to increase handsize. Or KC-hamlet. So you didn't exactly have that choice there. Not to mention that 4 provinces and 3 duchies in 19 turns on a board with King's Court and +Buy isn't that impressive of a haul.

Inn and Hamlet naturally decrease your handsize in exchange for offering you goodies - perfect  for discarding coppers and then using poor house. Journeyman, on the other hand, increases your handsize - if you've got a village, it'll be sitting their tempting you to draw your deck anyway.

I can believe that there will be edge cases where you'd rather have the poor houses and use journeyman to keep coppers out of your hand - maybe KC is around and you want to megaturn off poor houses, but have no way of discarding from hand. But I think that's an edge case rather than the common case. In general, it'll be much more common, if Journeyman and Poor house are on the board, to draw your whole deck and then either discard the coppers, or trash the coppers, or to skip the poorhouses altogether and invest in alternate ways of generating money that better take advantage of the large handsizes an engine gives you.

[Davio]

With Journeyman, maybe more so than with other terminal drawers, I think it's essential to think about what you want to achieve by playing it. You can achieve many things, heck, you can even play it like a Scout.

What I mean is, say you already have $8 and are close to a reshuffle, but not quite there. This means you have good cards in hand this turn (some Golds and the Journeyman) that you don't want to miss that reshuffle. You could name "whatever is not in your deck" and just draw the top 3 or you could name a bad card and hope those are skipped for your next hand. Or you could just not play the Journeyman if you have just 2 cards on your deck.

[werothegreat]

Yes I've still got a few questions about simple journeyman + treasure decks that could do with an answer (or a simulator):
- is journeyman stronger in a colony game? - probably yes due to period when you can name coppers
- do you want more than one journeyman in a basic province game? - probably not
- when do you start greening with a journeyman deck compared to a smithy? - similar time maybe, even though journeyman will stay stronger into the end game. Journeyman can yield very early 8 coin hands that presumably still need to be gold.
- are there many times when you would buy estates ahead of duchies to preserve the journeyman drawing? - probably not

I wouldn't be able to give an objective answer without a simulator.  My guesses, though:
-Equal strength
-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?
-I would say as soon as you reach $8, if you're doing Big Money
-I would say no.  If you're at the point where you're Duchy dancing, you should be buying Duchies, not Estates.

[florrat]

-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?

In the standard Smithy-BM game you want to buy 2 smithies, right?

I think you only want a second Journeyman if you reach 5 and you don't want to a Duchy yet (and when it's not too early, if you get $5 on T3 and T4, you definitely don't want 2 Journeymen already).

[eHalcyon]

In theory, you're less likely to want a second Journeyman (compared to a second Smithy) because Journeyman draws further into your deck thanks to its filtering.  You're more likely to draw your second Journeyman dead than Smithy would draw Smithy.  But simulations would certainly be needed to get a definitive understanding of this.

[Awaclus]

-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?

In the standard Smithy-BM game you want to buy 2 smithies, right?

You don't want to want to buy 2 Smithies, but if the game drags, the second Smithy can be the correct play.

[Mic Qsenoch]

-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?

In the standard Smithy-BM game you want to buy 2 smithies, right?

You don't want to want to buy 2 Smithies, but if the game drags, the second Smithy can be the correct play.

This is wrong. You want a second Smithy for sure, sometimes even a third.

[Titandrake]

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.

Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot

But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.

Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper

You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.

Remember, this is working under the assumption that you have good trashing, and thus you no longer have Estates and Coppers.  In this case, you'd rather find your other Journeymen, rather than yet another Village, so you can draw your entire deck this turn.

No, you'd rather get the Village, since that would be more beneficial to drawing your entire deck.  Really.  You'd be better off naming Province, Silver, Chapel, Mountebank, or what not if your goal is to draw your full deck.  There is no reason to skip over cantrips unless you specifically want them to be in your discard (perhaps towards triggering a nice shuffle, or something).

If you know you have lots of Villages in your discard, you won't be as averse to triggering a reshuffle mid turn, whereas if you had drawn them, it's a harder choice because you have more villages that miss the shuffle.

Granted, not naming a cantrip is better ~90% of the time by my estimate, but if you have a surplus of actions, and know you don't need more, naming the cantrip can give better consistency, at the cost of a slightly worse hand this turn from not naming a junk card.

[Awaclus]

-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?

In the standard Smithy-BM game you want to buy 2 smithies, right?

You don't want to want to buy 2 Smithies, but if the game drags, the second Smithy can be the correct play.

This is wrong. You want a second Smithy for sure, sometimes even a third.

True. I was thinking of Envoy there, please ignore my post. 

[WanderingWinder]

-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?

In the standard Smithy-BM game you want to buy 2 smithies, right?

You don't want to want to buy 2 Smithies, but if the game drags, the second Smithy can be the correct play.

This is wrong. You want a second Smithy for sure, sometimes even a third.

To expand on this:
You particularly actually want the second one. You almost always end up with a spot where it's better than silver, too.
You most often want the third one, but it's not common (though not unheard of) to get into the point where it's the best buy, over silver (and, if possible, duchy/gold).

[Schneau]

-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?

In the standard Smithy-BM game you want to buy 2 smithies, right?

You don't want to want to buy 2 Smithies, but if the game drags, the second Smithy can be the correct play.

This is wrong. You want a second Smithy for sure, sometimes even a third.

To expand on this:
You particularly actually want the second one. You almost always end up with a spot where it's better than silver, too.
You most often want the third one, but it's not common (though not unheard of) to get into the point where it's the best buy, over smithy (and, if possible, duchy/gold).

It is hard to find a time when Smithy is a better buy than Smithy. 

[WanderingWinder]

-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?

In the standard Smithy-BM game you want to buy 2 smithies, right?

You don't want to want to buy 2 Smithies, but if the game drags, the second Smithy can be the correct play.

This is wrong. You want a second Smithy for sure, sometimes even a third.

To expand on this:
You particularly actually want the second one. You almost always end up with a spot where it's better than silver, too.
You most often want the third one, but it's not common (though not unheard of) to get into the point where it's the best buy, over smithy (and, if possible, duchy/gold).

It is hard to find a time when Smithy is a better buy than Smithy. 

That's the key to reaching level 75.

[Davio]

The whole "if the game drags" is true about BM-style games anyway, so extra Smithies and/or Journeymen are always helpful. I think of any drawer you want at least 2 at some point, even Envoy, although Envoy is a special case, because you need more resilience against greening, meaning money.

[DG]

The whole "if the game drags" is true about BM-style games anyway, so extra Smithies and/or Journeymen are always helpful.

But when is a second journeyman more helpful than a duchy?

[Davio]

The whole "if the game drags" is true about BM-style games anyway, so extra Smithies and/or Journeymen are always helpful.

But when is a second journeyman more helpful than a duchy?

With these kinds of problems, I find it's better to just get the second drawer ASAP, because when you're waiting for a certain threshold, you could indeed be well into Duchy territory and curse yourself for not being able or having wanted to pick one up earlier.

The effect of better drag resilience outweighs the early terminal collisions for me.
These BM-style games tend to follow a certain flow where you'll either be able to get to 5 Provinces quickly or have to fight the Duchy drag. Having an extra drawer helps with both.

[werothegreat]

Tonight I'm going to play a few test games against bots to see the relative speed of Journeyman+BM strategies.

For both Province and Colony games:
*Control (one Journeyman, green at first $8)
*Two Journeymen
*One Journeyman, belay greening till second $8
*Two Journeymen, belay greening till second $8
*Three Journeymen

[ragingduckd]

Well, it's at least a Smithy.



Strategy improvements? Dominiate with Journeyman

[Davio]

Getting a second Journeyman without the condition does seem to up the percentage and so does never skipping Copper.

[Titandrake]

Off topic, but Masq-BM seems to lose 35-65 to BigSmithy on Dominiate. I thought Masq-BM was supposed to beat Smithy-BM. Unless there's been a new understanding of how to play it I don't see why it's so much better.

[ragingduckd]

Off topic, but Masq-BM seems to lose 35-65 to BigSmithy on Dominiate. I thought Masq-BM was supposed to beat Smithy-BM. Unless there's been a new understanding of how to play it I don't see why it's so much better.

The strategy is only as good as its code. I'm pretty sure that rspeer's goal was to create a framework for others to use rather than to define optimal strategies. Many of the default strategies could be improved upon.

[DG]

Geronimo's sim has it 51-44 in favor of masquerade. There is likely to be something going on with the decision to trash a copper when you might need it for gold or a duchy. The BigJourneyman script makes draw calculations based on the whole deck rather than the draw deck and this will lose some efficiency.

[SCSN]

Geronimo's sim has it 51-44 in favor of masquerade. There is likely to be something going on with the decision to trash a copper when you might need it for gold or a duchy. The BigJourneyman script makes draw calculations based on the whole deck rather than the draw deck and this will lose some efficiency.

In pure BM-Masq, how often do you want to trash Copper when it doesn't directly help you with buying a better card? My (quite simplistic) understanding is that you don't want alot of Copper trashing in BM games with Provinces because it will make you choke on green much faster. But there's surely some sort of trade off, as buying Cache for $6 is usually pretty terrible, as is BM-Beggar.

A similar issue arises with Counterfeit. In a recent game with Courtyard and Counterfeit, I started greening after 2 Courtyards and 3 Counterfeits (picking up Golds later). Because I had been mindlessly trashing Copper each time I got my Counterfeits, I stalled hard, and was eventually outrun by some wacky Squire-Courtyard-Merchant Guild engine. It feels like I totally botched it, but at the same time I'm not quite sure what I should have done differently, besides perhaps not trashing Copper so aggressively and getting a Gold or two earlier. Here's the log.

[DG]

In that counterfeit game you went green too early. At least one gold was needed. A masquerade has the advantage of trashing estates before the copper so the effects of greening are much less.

[SCSN]

In that counterfeit game you went green too early. At least one gold was needed. A masquerade has the advantage of trashing estates before the copper so the effects of greening are much less.

I bought my first Province on T7, another on T8 and then a Gold on both T9 and T10, and then again a Province on T11, after which I got a fresh reshuffle. I agree that getting a Gold over the first (and maybe the second also?) Province would have been better in general, but I'm not seeing how interchanging any of of the purchases in those 5 turns would have had any effect on the subsequent game here, let alone how it could affect the outcome in any significant way.

[Titandrake]

My gut feeling is that 2 Counterfeits is as much as you want in Big Money. Otherwise you run out of Treasures to trash too quickly. You buy some Coppers to feed Counterfeit, which I think is the right call if you already have the Counterfeits, but ideally you don't want to do that very often. Say you have $10 + 2 buys after a Counterfeit play; if you know your deck can last you're free to double Duchy or Prov + Estate instead of thinking about whether to pick up Copper.

[WanderingWinder]

Geronimo's sim has it 51-44 in favor of masquerade. There is likely to be something going on with the decision to trash a copper when you might need it for gold or a duchy. The BigJourneyman script makes draw calculations based on the whole deck rather than the draw deck and this will lose some efficiency.

In pure BM-Masq, how often do you want to trash Copper when it doesn't directly help you with buying a better card?

Basically every time. You aren't going to get to the point where you are crashing from having too few coppers. Or if you were, it just means you want more silvers or golds before greening.