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werothegreat

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Journeyman
« on: September 14, 2013, 09:55:35 pm »
+6

(WIP)


Journeyman is an incredible variation on the terminal draw theme.  Other cards Attack, or net more cards, or allow you to sift cards from your hand, or simply hang around until your next turn to do it again.  Journeyman is up there with the best of them, but it requires some finesse to use.  In the hands of the amateur player, Journeyman is no better than a Smithy.  But to the player who knows their deck back to front, keeping exquisite track of their draws and purchases, Journeyman is pretty damn good.

What does it do?

Journeyman essentially draws three cards that are not a specified card you don't want.  That specified card gets skipped over, and all the copies of it are discarded once you've finished drawing.  This is insanely powerful.  Deck full of Curses?  Traipse right over them.  Out of Actions this turn?  Skip right to your Treasures.  It's almost a "fixed" Smithy - it draws exactly what you want.

But, you have to know exactly what you want. 

How do I use it properly?

One useful analogy for Dominion cards is to think of them as little computer programs, and as all programmers know, computers are stupid.  They do exactly what you tell them to do, so if you tell them to do something dumb, they'll give you a dumb product.  Journeyman, while powerful, requires you to have an intimate knowledge of your deck.  That means keeping track of what cards you've already seen this shuffle, and keeping track of what cards you put into your deck.  Optimally, you should be naming the current undesirable card of which the highest concentration remains in your deck.  Let's look at several situations.

a) My deck is full of Curses.  Well, name Curse, dummy!

b) My deck is full of Ruins.  You're screwed.  Try to guess which Ruins you have the most of, but Journeyman really doesn't like Looters (or Shelters, for that matter).

c) I only have one Action left.  This is where your deck-tracking skills come into play - which Action do you have the most of left in your deck?  You want to maximize the number of Treasures (or even Victory cards or Curses, to make your next turn better) coming into your hand.  This card is not for the new player or the faint of heart - if you're playing in a low-+Action kingdom, you need to keep a very careful eye on what's in your deck (which advanced players should be doing anyway).

d) I have plenty of Actions left, and lots of Village cards.  Honestly?  Name Copper.  You have lots of those little buggers in your deck (barring good trashing), and none of them are going to help you draw more cards.  But be careful about doing this too close to a reshuffle, otherwise you'll find yourself starting your next turn with a deck full of Copper.

e) I'm going for a Big Money deck.  At the beginning, name Estate, and as your deck starts to fill with Silvers and Golds, name Copper.  Once you've gotten a few Provinces, start naming that instead.

f) I only have 3-5 cards left in my deck.  Name something ridiculous, like the Queen of Hearts or something, so that you only draw three cards.  Better to have crap than to have your Journeyman miss the reshuffle!

There are also a couple of more interesting instances.  For example, if you have Tunnels, obviously name Tunnel - not only will you skip over "useless" cards, you'll be reeling in Golds as well, which you'll be more than happy to draw later on.  Or, if you've managed to trash away all your junk, name your now useless trasher - you don't need that taking up space in your hand, and by this point you're usually comfortable drawing anything else in your deck.

For more advanced players, assuming good trashing conditions, keep in mind what is in your hand and what you need.  If you played one Village and have three Journeymen in hand, it might be a good idea to name Journeyman (or another such card), to try to get directly to your Villages.  Or if you have all your +Action cards in hand, name a non-drawing card instead.  Also bear in mind that if you seem to have all your Curses/Ruins in your hand already, it might be better to name Copper, so you can draw some better stuff, and maybe actually buy something costing more than $3.

What other cards help my Journeymen?

If you have the Actions to spare, any card that top-decks can synergize with Journeyman.  If your Courtyard drew your Journeyman, put an Estate or Copper on top of your deck and name that.  Did an opponent's Attack activate your Secret Chamber?  Well, let's just put those Curses right on top there.  But in general, Journeyman is so good at what it does, that it needs very little help.

Light trashing is a boon to Journeyman - Estate trashers like Hermit can allow you to name Copper with impunity, and later Province.  Heavy trashing, on the other hand, turns your Journeymen into expensive Smithies, at least, until you start to green.

How do I stop my opponent's Journeymen?

As mentioned above, Looters are very well equipped at stopping Journeymen, since Journeymen despise diversity.  Similar to Hunting Party, Journeyman wants a deck with as little variation in "useless" cards as possible, so that there's as little choice possible for what to name.  With five differently named junk cards being thrown into his deck, the Journeyman player will soon be very unhappy.  And while discard Attacks in general usually won't be enough to stop a Journeyman player (Ghost Ship may actually help them), a Pillage can knock out a key Village from his hand, stopping his engine, or knock out his Journeyman, if he's going for a Big Money strategy.

In certain kingdoms, Swindler can be useful in stopping a Journeyman player.  Swindler, in general, is a good Attack, and can stop a wide variety of decks, but this is not especially true for Journeyman unless there are cards in the kingdom that can be Swindled for your engine parts to increase the number of "dead" cards Journeyman will want to skip over.  For example, if you're using Worker's Village as your Village, and there are Potion cards, you may find yourself running out of +Actions cards.  And of course, Journeymen can be Swindled into Duchies, and Silvers can be Swindled into Swindlers.  But in order for Swindler to really throw a monkey wrench into Journeyman's bad-card-skipping, there need to be suitably "useless" (to the Journeyman player) cards at most costs in the kingdom - usually unwanted terminals, as these can stall both an engine and a Big Money strategy.

Conclusion

Journeyman is indubitably powerful, but not necessarily unstoppable.  Keep track of what's left in your deck, and remember that if something is in your hand, it's not in your deck (i.e. don't name that card).

Synergies:
*Homogeneous decks
*Engines
*Tunnel
*Top-deckers
*Light trashing

Anti-synergies:
*Ruins
*Shelters
*Heavy trashing
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 08:24:40 am by werothegreat »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2013, 10:04:00 pm »
0

Thanks for writing this.

Did you mean Hunting Party when you wrote Hunting Grounds?  Also, Pillage doesn't strike me as an anti-synergy.  I mean, how is being Pillaged here any worse than usual?
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werothegreat

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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2013, 10:11:07 pm »
0

Thanks for writing this.

My pleasure!

Did you mean Hunting Party when you wrote Hunting Grounds?

Yes.

Also, Pillage doesn't strike me as an anti-synergy.  I mean, how is being Pillaged here any worse than usual?

Murrrr.
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2013, 10:24:45 pm »
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I don't think naming Copper is often a good idea for BM. Often, drawing three Coppers would be fine, or if you need $4 more, in a deck with plenty of Silver and Gold, it's not so likely to draw three Coppers. I think better advice is to name Estate until you have three Provinces, then name Estate or Province depending on what you remember seeing so far this shuffle (if you don't have a good memory for that, maybe one is in your hand now, so name the other).

Another situation is if your deck doesn't have many cards left, it may be better to name a card you don't have in your deck (e.g., the Ace of Spades, or Pikachu) so that your Journeyman doesn't miss a reshuffle.

If your hand already has a lot of your other junk, naming Copper must be correct, not just because it's the worst card remaining in your deck, but because Copper won't enough for you to buy anything nice. But this is an exception.

I don't know if simulators can handle deck tracking, but if someone has simulated it, of course I'll defer to them.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 10:26:37 pm by Warfreak2 »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2013, 10:26:22 pm »
+1

Journeyman is not the best terminal draw.  I'd give that to Wharf.  Or if we go by Qvist's rankings (and make the fairly big assumption that the best terminal draw is a $5 card), then technically the best terminal draw is Witch. ;)

On deck inspection -- there's also Apothecary... but I'm not sold on advocating either one.  Certainly not Scout.  There is some mild synergy there, but Scout is so weak that it's probably not going to help your Journeyman at all.  If you keep the point in the article, it may be a place for a joke/warning about how Scout might be the card you should name for Journeyman.

Is Tournament actually an anti-synergy?  I think in an engine setting where you have +actions, it isn't at all.  In BM, it's less certain.  But I don't think Journeyman hates diversity that much -- it just doesn't want diversity of weak cards, like Ruins as you've pointed out.
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2013, 10:27:39 pm »
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Seconded, it's unlikely that you'd want Journeyman to skip over your prizes!
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werothegreat

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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2013, 11:10:36 pm »
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Seconded, it's unlikely that you'd want Journeyman to skip over your prizes!

You're right, I'm dumb.  I should sleep more.
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2013, 11:24:48 pm »
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Did some editing.  Check it.
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2013, 11:30:33 pm »
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Do you think Journeyman is actually better than Wharf then?

Still dunno about that Scout mention, even watered down.

While you're talking about top-decking, Ghost Ship might deserve a mention?  You can put Estates back and skip them with Journeyman, for example.  Journeyman is sort of like Farming Village that way, I guess, but it's more flexible because you could do it with, say, Copper instead.  I see that you talk about Ghost Ship in the next section though.
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2013, 11:32:26 pm »
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Do you think Journeyman is actually better than Wharf then?

Still dunno about that Scout mention, even watered down.

While you're talking about top-decking, Ghost Ship might deserve a mention?  You can put Estates back and skip them with Journeyman, for example.  Journeyman is sort of like Farming Village that way, I guess, but it's more flexible because you could do it with, say, Copper instead.  I see that you talk about Ghost Ship in the next section though.

I did mention Ghost Ship.  I'm doing some more editing.
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2013, 03:06:19 am »
+1

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2013, 07:22:43 am »
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Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.
Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot

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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2013, 07:58:47 am »
+2

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.
Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot
But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.

Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper

You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 08:00:16 am by Awaclus »
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2013, 09:46:18 am »
0

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.
Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot
But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.

Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper

You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.

Remember, this is working under the assumption that you have good trashing, and thus you no longer have Estates and Coppers.  In this case, you'd rather find your other Journeymen, rather than yet another Village, so you can draw your entire deck this turn.
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2013, 09:54:23 am »
0

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.
Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot
But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.

Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper

You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.

Remember, this is working under the assumption that you have good trashing, and thus you no longer have Estates and Coppers.  In this case, you'd rather find your other Journeymen, rather than yet another Village, so you can draw your entire deck this turn.

No, you'd rather get the Village, since that would be more beneficial to drawing your entire deck.  Really.  You'd be better off naming Province, Silver, Chapel, Mountebank, or what not if your goal is to draw your full deck.  There is no reason to skip over cantrips unless you specifically want them to be in your discard (perhaps towards triggering a nice shuffle, or something).
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2013, 10:01:49 am »
0

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.
Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot
But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.

Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper

You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.

Remember, this is working under the assumption that you have good trashing, and thus you no longer have Estates and Coppers.  In this case, you'd rather find your other Journeymen, rather than yet another Village, so you can draw your entire deck this turn.

No, you'd rather get the Village, since that would be more beneficial to drawing your entire deck.  Really.  You'd be better off naming Province, Silver, Chapel, Mountebank, or what not if your goal is to draw your full deck.  There is no reason to skip over cantrips unless you specifically want them to be in your discard (perhaps towards triggering a nice shuffle, or something).
Yay! Again I'm proven wrong in one of these articles :P Ah well.  I was thinking that though because I had just played a game where I named village multiple times because I had just drawn my Journeyman all alone.  With an action remaining, yeah, name a VP or copper or something

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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2013, 10:09:10 am »
0

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.
Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot
But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.

Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper

You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.

Remember, this is working under the assumption that you have good trashing, and thus you no longer have Estates and Coppers.  In this case, you'd rather find your other Journeymen, rather than yet another Village, so you can draw your entire deck this turn.

No, you'd rather get the Village, since that would be more beneficial to drawing your entire deck.  Really.  You'd be better off naming Province, Silver, Chapel, Mountebank, or what not if your goal is to draw your full deck.  There is no reason to skip over cantrips unless you specifically want them to be in your discard (perhaps towards triggering a nice shuffle, or something).

Hmmm.  Makes sense.
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2013, 10:11:39 am »
+1

Journeyman is the best non-Attack terminal draw card.
...
Hunting Grounds is too expensive, Embassy effectively draws fewer cards... okay, maybe Wharf is better, but that's only because its Duration effect is so ridiculous.

When opening with a controversial claim, it's usually good to provide some justification.

Your argument boils down to:
1. "Journeyman at $5 is better than HG at $6"
2. "Embassy only draws 2 cards"
3. "I didn't mean it... Wharf is better"

I question #1. HG has a bigger edge over Journeyman than Journeyman has over Envoy or even Smithy. And that's in spite of the fact that $4 to $5 is usually a much larger power difference than $5 to $6.

#2 is misleading. Embassy draws only two cards on net, but you can choose your discards from among the bad cards you had in your starting hand. The stronger argument against Embassy is the free Silver, without which Embassy vs Journeyman would be no comparison whatever.

#3 is accurate.

Of course, there are a few other contenders for "best non-attack terminal draw:" Courtyard, Masquerade, Envoy, Vault, Catacombs, ...
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2013, 10:15:06 am »
0

Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.
Because you don't need the extra actions.  I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village.  There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot
But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.

Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper

You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.

This is an excellent point. If you have at least 1 extra action, you'll never want to name a cantrip (unless that cantrip is one you might not want to play, like Rats).
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2013, 10:16:11 am »
0

Journeyman is the best non-Attack terminal draw card.
...
Hunting Grounds is too expensive, Embassy effectively draws fewer cards... okay, maybe Wharf is better, but that's only because its Duration effect is so ridiculous.

When opening with a controversial claim, it's usually good to provide some justification.

Your argument boils down to:
1. "Journeyman at $5 is better than HG at $6"
2. "Embassy only draws 2 cards"
3. "I didn't mean it... Wharf is better"

I question #1. HG has a bigger edge over Journeyman than Journeyman has over Envoy or even Smithy. And that's in spite of the fact that $4 to $5 is usually a much larger power difference than $5 to $6.

#2 is misleading. Embassy draws only two cards on net, but you can choose your discards from among the bad cards you had in your starting hand. The stronger argument against Embassy is the free Silver, without which Embassy vs Journeyman would be no comparison whatever.

#3 is accurate.

Of course, there are a few other contenders for "best non-attack terminal draw:" Courtyard, Masquerade, Envoy, Vault, Catacombs, ...

$6 is in direct competition with Gold, and while Hunting Grounds is awesome, it doesn't have Journeyman's filtering effect.  In a lot of cases, Journeyman's filtering will be better than Catacombs, and in similar cases, better than Embassy as well, especially since Journeyman nets more cards (though I'll grant you that when your junk is in your hand, Embassy may have an edge).  The Silver is just icing on the cake.  None of these are bad cards - it's just Journeyman is really really really good.
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2013, 10:18:23 am »
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Would you all be happier if I changed the intro to "Journeyman is ONE OF the best terminal draw cards"?
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2013, 11:21:16 am »
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Would you all be happier if I changed the intro to "Journeyman is ONE OF the best terminal draw cards"?

Sort of. That's not really true either (Witch, Cultist, etc).

The substance of your article is how to play JM, not how strong it is. You can either add a lot more substantive arguments about its strength, or you can limit your claims to what your audience is ready to accept.

If you have to water down your claim to "JM is one of the best terminal draw cards that isn't an attack" then you might as well open with something else. And you do, because the general consensus is that JM is good but not amazing. Any really bold claim is going to immediately turn off top players while leading novice players astray.
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2013, 11:27:55 am »
+1

Would you all be happier if I changed the intro to "Journeyman is ONE OF the best terminal draw cards"?

Sort of. That's not really true either (Witch, Cultist, etc).

The substance of your article is how to play JM, not how strong it is. You can either add a lot more substantive arguments about its strength, or you can limit your claims to what your audience is ready to accept.

If you have to water down your claim to "JM is one of the best terminal draw cards that isn't an attack" then you might as well open with something else. And you do, because the general consensus is that JM is good but not amazing. Any really bold claim is going to immediately turn off top players while leading novice players astray.

Changed the opening.
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2013, 11:29:02 am »
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I like the current opening.
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Re: Journeyman
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2013, 11:48:04 am »
+4

Would you all be happier if I changed the intro to "Journeyman is ONE OF the best terminal draw cards"?

Sort of. That's not really true either (Witch, Cultist, etc).

This is an interesting place for hairsplitting. I'd say that Witch is a good card, and it's a terminal-draw card, but not a good terminal-draw card. It's good because it's a curser; it's not very effective as a source of terminal draw.
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