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Author Topic: Masterpiece  (Read 27060 times)

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ashersky

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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2013, 06:59:52 am »
+1

I've had opponents open Masterpiece with 4...no Feodum on the board.  Which, even if it was, is no excuse.

I sure hope Gardens were in the kingdom.

Province was.  So was Duchy.  And Estate.
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2013, 10:37:27 am »
+1

Other combos: Mine or Taxman.  If you mine or tax a Masterpiece, it turns into gold, negating its disadvantage.  Also, the silvers which come with Masterpiece are good mining targets if you don't have the Masterpiece itself, and even better taxing targets if your opponents don't have Masterpiece themselves.

I once used Taxman to turn a Masterpiece into a Gold, and as luck would have it, my opponent had his only Masterpiece in hand and had to discard it. Bonus!

His hand was Taxman-Masterpiece-ThreeNoTreasureCards too...

Dude, you made me go back to check to see if this was actually true. It wasn't! My opponent's hand was [Masterpiece, Candlestick Maker, Copper, Copper, Gold]. Boooooooo!
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2013, 11:26:19 am »
0

I've had opponents open Masterpiece with 4...no Feodum on the board.  Which, even if it was, is no excuse.

I thought of doing it once, but that was in a different case...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

werothegreat

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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2013, 04:05:47 pm »
0

I've had opponents open Masterpiece with 4...no Feodum on the board.  Which, even if it was, is no excuse.

I sure hope Gardens were in the kingdom.

Province was.  So was Duchy.  And Estate.

Not everyone on Goko is a Domin-spert.  Probably most of them are not very familiar with Guilds cards.
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2013, 04:11:30 pm »
0

At any rate, does anyone have any issues with the article as it stands?  If not, I'm going to post it to the wiki page.
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2013, 04:28:25 pm »
0

At any rate, does anyone have any issues with the article as it stands?  If not, I'm going to post it to the wiki page.
Well, I'd still like it if you mentioned that discard attacks are a pretty good counter to Masterpiece strategies that aim to Provinces. But other than that, I think it's good.
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2013, 04:52:58 pm »
0

At any rate, does anyone have any issues with the article as it stands?  If not, I'm going to post it to the wiki page.
Well, I'd still like it if you mentioned that discard attacks are a pretty good counter to Masterpiece strategies that aim to Provinces. But other than that, I think it's good.

Good point!  I'll add in a "counter" section.
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ashersky

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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2013, 07:31:06 pm »
+1

I've had opponents open Masterpiece with 4...no Feodum on the board.  Which, even if it was, is no excuse.

I sure hope Gardens were in the kingdom.

Province was.  So was Duchy.  And Estate.

Not everyone on Goko is a Domin-spert.  Probably most of them are not very familiar with Guilds cards.

That's why your article is well-timed!

Also, I'd mention "don't open with Masterpiece except in edge case situations" to the article.
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2013, 09:03:10 pm »
0

I've had opponents open Masterpiece with 4...no Feodum on the board.  Which, even if it was, is no excuse.

I sure hope Gardens were in the kingdom.

Province was.  So was Duchy.  And Estate.

Not everyone on Goko is a Domin-spert.  Probably most of them are not very familiar with Guilds cards.

That's why your article is well-timed!

Also, I'd mention "don't open with Masterpiece except in edge case situations" to the article.

Well, unless you have five coins and there are no other good $5s.  I wouldn't call that an edge case.  Maybe say "don't buy Masterpiece with $3 or $4 except in edge case situations" would be better.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

ashersky

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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2013, 09:05:22 pm »
+1

I've had opponents open Masterpiece with 4...no Feodum on the board.  Which, even if it was, is no excuse.

I sure hope Gardens were in the kingdom.

Province was.  So was Duchy.  And Estate.

Not everyone on Goko is a Domin-spert.  Probably most of them are not very familiar with Guilds cards.

That's why your article is well-timed!

Also, I'd mention "don't open with Masterpiece except in edge case situations" to the article.

Well, unless you have five coins and there are no other good $5s.  I wouldn't call that an edge case.  Maybe say "don't buy Masterpiece with $3 or $4 except in edge case situations" would be better.

You probably still want an important 4 with that 5 instead of two silvers and a copper, because your 2 coin hand can't afford Scout.
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2013, 09:07:05 pm »
0

You probably still want an important 4 with that 5 instead of two silvers and a copper, because your 2 coin hand can't afford Scout.

The extra silvers help in your economy, and you could get a bunch of good $4 quickly then.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

ashersky

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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2013, 09:07:59 pm »
+5

You probably still want an important 4 with that 5 instead of two silvers and a copper, because your 2 coin hand can't afford Scout.

The extra silvers help in your economy, and you could get a bunch of good $4 quickly then.

Silvers don't draw your victory cards OR give +1 action.
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2013, 01:15:33 am »
0

Opening $5 Masterpiece is like opening Cache, it's not a bad move but almost always there are better options available.
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2013, 02:07:56 pm »
0

Let's say you're playing strictly Smithy-BM, and it's the mid-game phase (i.e. you got 2 Smithys but it's not Duchy time yet). For $5, do you get Silver or Masterpiece?
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Awaclus

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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2013, 02:36:07 pm »
0

Let's say you're playing strictly Smithy-BM, and it's the mid-game phase (i.e. you got 2 Smithys but it's not Duchy time yet). For $5, do you get Silver or Masterpiece?
Another Smithy. You need more than two for a Masterpiece game. But if you haven't been buying any Masterpieces yet, buy a Masterpiece.
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2013, 04:34:13 pm »
0

Opening $5 Masterpiece is like opening Cache, it's not a bad move but almost always there are better options available.

Just now realized how similar those cards are.. surprised this hasn't been discussed before (or has it?) With $5, you can either have a Gold and 2 Coppers, or 2 Silvers and a Copper. Both purchase $5 worth of treasure split across 3 cards.
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Awaclus

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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2013, 04:38:10 pm »
0

Opening $5 Masterpiece is like opening Cache, it's not a bad move but almost always there are better options available.

Just now realized how similar those cards are.. surprised this hasn't been discussed before (or has it?) With $5, you can either have a Gold and 2 Coppers, or 2 Silvers and a Copper. Both purchase $5 worth of treasure split across 3 cards.
I'm relatively sure that I did not come up with that myself, so at least someone has mentioned it before.
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2013, 05:11:36 pm »
0

Opening $5 Masterpiece is like opening Cache, it's not a bad move but almost always there are better options available.

Just now realized how similar those cards are.. surprised this hasn't been discussed before (or has it?) With $5, you can either have a Gold and 2 Coppers, or 2 Silvers and a Copper. Both purchase $5 worth of treasure split across 3 cards.
I'm relatively sure that I did not come up with that myself, so at least someone has mentioned it before.

It seems to have been first mentioned in June, shortly after Guilds was released.
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2013, 05:59:18 pm »
+1

Tactician Masterpiece is a great big money strategy, too. 
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2013, 10:48:50 am »
+10

This card is under-rated and I believe that this article could be expanded upon/improved.  Here are my main considerations.  I'm just going to go sequentially through the article and pose my arguments.

Quote
Well What is it

This section is fine as is.  The last sentence is a bit out of place.

Quote
In Big Money strategies, buying Masterpiece for $6 or more can sometimes be superior to Gold, but most engines will sputter and die with that many non-drawing cards in your deck.

In most cases buying a Masterpiece at $6 or more is superior than Gold.  More on this later.  Masterpiece is not meant to be an Engine card.  It's use in engines is mostly irrelevant.  In engines, the raw power of Gold in a single card is much more useful than the influx of Silver.

Quote
So How Do I Use It

The first paragraph is not emphasized enough.  That first Gold is extremely helpful.  Subsequent $6 should most often be Masterpiece buys.  For Masterpiece to truly shine you need more than just one Masterpiece buy.  You are looking to absolutely flood your deck with Silver allowing you to do a few things extremely well.

1.)  Green earlier
2.)  Prevent choking

What does this mean in the context of deck construction?  Let's take a theoretical example.  You have 18 cards in deck including a Smithy meaning you get 3 hands before your next reshuffle.  In your deck you hand 7x Copper, 3x Estate, 5xSilver, 1x Gold, 1x Masterpiece, 1x Smithy.  This is a total of $21 gold over 18 cards giving you a density of $1.16/Card (Province buying is $1.6/Card).  With your $21 over 3 hands you buy 3 Masterpieces overpaying for each one resulting in gaining 3 Masterpieces and 12 Silver.  Let's recalculate average money density.  You have $48 money in 33 Cards giving you $1.45/Card.  Imagine you had bought 3 Gold instead of Masterpiece you would be at $30/21 Cards = $1.43/Card. 

So by going Masterpiece over Gold you are keeping your average money density about the same but your buffer capacity (I teach orgo lab and just graded a ton of reports with a phosphate buffer system, had to put in chemistry blurb) is much better.  You deck size is 33 as opposed to 21.  This means that as you are less prone to choking on green.  You can green earlier on Duchies and use the extra VP to outlast you Gold gaining opponent in the long run.

So back to constructing you deck.  The above was an ideal hypothetical example.  In practice I have found it to be most useful to flood the deck when you deck is in peak condition.  This usually happens after the 2nd reshuffle.  So you should look for these Masterpiece buys starting at Turn 5 and onward.  After you have gotten about 2 or 3 Masterpiece buys you are ready for greening.  There is wiggle room on deciding whether $8 should be Province or Masterpiece + 5x Silver.  My advice for this is to ask yourself the following:  Will you make it completely through your deck again?  If yes, go for the Silver, if no, go for the Province.  When your deck is medium sized.  You can get Duchies on $5.  If you're going through your deck again (think of the amount of VP left) you probably want $6-7 to be Masterpiece.

On the topic of TfB and Masterpiece.  I would say that this is a nombo.  Masterpiece floods your deck with Silver making it unlikely that said TfB will hit that Masterpiece which is the ideal Target.  Silver is a mediocre card for almost all TfB that could conceivably be used.

Masterpiece also excels in slogs. 

Quote
Cursers and Looters will make it much harder for your opponent to line up enough Silvers

I disagree with this.  Cursers and Looters are cause to go for Masterpiece.  They serve to stall your deck by increasing your deck size and thus lowering your average money density.  The presence of Masterpiece allows you to create a buffer in which each individual Curse or Ruin has less of an effect on you average money density.  This is assuming that using trashing as a means to control Curses is minimal and that engine potential is low anyways.

Here are a few sample games that I have played recently using Masterpiece to great effect.

This game shows the power of Masterpiece to overcome cursing from Witch.

Hunting Grounds/Masterpiece has 18 Silver after turn 8!

This game shows province buying power in a Swindler/IGG game.

In a game with Pirate ship and no reliable +Coin, Masterpiece easily overwhelms the attack.
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Awaclus

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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2013, 11:33:23 am »
0

The first paragraph is not emphasized enough.  That first Gold is extremely helpful.  Subsequent $6 should most often be Masterpiece buys.
I almost agree with this now. Early on, Gold is superior, and as the game goes on, Masterpiece becomes better and better in comparison. However, I think that rather than buying 1 Gold and Masterpieces after that, you should buy Golds until you get your first big Masterpiece and Masterpieces after that, because the reason why the Golds are extremely helpful is that huge Masterpiece buy - you want to maximize the number of Golds before that, but after that, Golds aren't that useful any longer. Usually, this means getting 1-2 Golds in practice.
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2013, 01:36:30 pm »
0

Actually, now that I rethink this, you should already buy a $6 MP when you think you're going to get a huge MP buy later before your next reshuffle.
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Re: Masterpiece
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2014, 04:31:26 pm »
0

Hermit's very nice with Masterpiece. First, you get to trash your Estates and gain some Silvers, then you get to draw a huge hand for a huge Masterpiece buy.
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