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Author Topic: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements  (Read 8665 times)

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Darthcaboose

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New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« on: September 10, 2013, 09:35:25 pm »
+2

Hello everyone,

Server just refreshed and it looks like there's 5 new special achievements to go along with Cities.

Fame: Claim this special achievement immediately if you splay a stack up due to an arrow icon.
Repute: Claim this special achievement immediately if you splay a stack right due to an arrow icon.
Legend: Claim this special achievement immediately if you splay a stack left due to an arrow icon.
Victory: Claim this special achievement immediately if you have a visible black flag.
Glory: Claim this special achievement immediately if you have a white flag that counts as an achievement.

---

Certainly will be a lot easier to keep track of compared to the other achievements in a real-life game. That said, these seem a little too... basic. I was hoping to see some more interactive ones. I sent Asmadi Games an email with the following suggestions:

Fame: Keep the same (up splay through a city up arrow)
Repute: Keep the same (right splay through a city right arrow)
Legend: When melding a city with one of the 6 icons at the top middle of the city card, claim this special achievement if you keep at least three of the drawn base cards (replacing left splay icon arrow).
Glory: Claim if you have 3 top cards as cities, all of different ages. (alternatively, maybe make it so your top card cities have between them at least 5 of the 6 icon types; which will still require at least 3 top cities).
Victory: Claim if you have 2 flags (either white or black) on your board while they are activated as achievements.

My idea is to make them a little harder to get, while still keeping the whole 'right' and 'up' splay is special (a la Wonder).

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Kahryl

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2013, 10:54:36 am »
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More thought really needs to be put into the achievements, for sure. For one thing, they are (again) too easy to get. Achievements should be an accomplishment! They should require luck or planning or clever inspiration. I blinked when I got an achieve for using a left-splay icon. I was like, I was going to do that anyway! These are like Steam achievements, just giving you a pile of them for playing the game normally.

How about..

..an achievement if you draw three cities in a single turn
..an achievement if all of your top cards are cities
..if city B endorses city A, you can achieve city A if you meet the score requirements

..but perhaps more thought than just "interesting achievements" should be put into this. Achievements are there not to look nifty but to direct the course of the game. Previous expansions tailored achievements to the way that expansion wanted the game to work out.

..The vanilla specials was split about half between "building and expanding" (Monument, Wonder) and "tech rush" (Universe, World), along with the score/basic achievement system that rewarded balancing building (scoring) with techup.
..The echoes specials seemed to be focused on building up your stacks and splaying them, since that strategy was a bit too weak in vanilla
..The figures specials had a whole different dynamic that was integral to how figures worked
..but the cities are just more of the same?

What does the cities expansion want to do to the metagame? What corrections or improvements or changes does it want to make? The achievements should be tailored to that.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 11:19:45 am by Kahryl »
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teasel

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2013, 11:56:52 am »
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were other change made to the game or just achievements? anyway yeah this looks like somewhat tacked on,as was said the problem with previous achievements was that they were too easy to claim and these too are too easy to claim... the old achievement from previous expansions worked because they were tied to the new mechanic that were introduced... the only new mechanic in cities is endorsement,so how about making achievement related to it? like maybe you get an achievement whenever you endorse a (insert color) action or city (insert number... something like 10 sounds good) and every new achievement give you bonus for everytime you use the endorse action... they could be like smaller version of the edicts

blue: increase each age value of the endorsed action by 1
red: return a top card of lower value than the endorsed action or endorsing city whichever is less powerfull
green: forecast a card of value equal to the endorsed action or endorsing city
yellow: return a card of lower value than the endorsed action or endorsing city (keeping with the edict theme this color would splay but splaying you more cities so i'm not sure it would be a good idea,besides yellow is the score screwing color anyway)
purple: ah this one is hard since purple is a sort of do-it-all color... mmm... maybe draw and meld a card of the same age?
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Joseph2302

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2013, 12:28:28 pm »
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Please can you say somewhere on Isotropic that the achievements have changed? I only realised after I should have earnt one of the old achievements.
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Kahryl

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2013, 12:49:59 pm »
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It would be nice if there was a one-like description of the last server update's effects or something in the main lobby.

But we are beta testing. Unpredictability is part of the fun!
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Darthcaboose

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2013, 04:28:46 pm »
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More thought really needs to be put into the achievements, for sure. For one thing, they are (again) too easy to get. Achievements should be an accomplishment! They should require luck or planning or clever inspiration. I blinked when I got an achieve for using a left-splay icon. I was like, I was going to do that anyway! These are like Steam achievements, just giving you a pile of them for playing the game normally.

How about..

..an achievement if you draw three cities in a single turn
..an achievement if all of your top cards are cities
..if city B endorses city A, you can achieve city A if you meet the score requirements

..but perhaps more thought than just "interesting achievements" should be put into this. Achievements are there not to look nifty but to direct the course of the game. Previous expansions tailored achievements to the way that expansion wanted the game to work out.

..The vanilla specials was split about half between "building and expanding" (Monument, Wonder) and "tech rush" (Universe, World), along with the score/basic achievement system that rewarded balancing building (scoring) with techup.
..The echoes specials seemed to be focused on building up your stacks and splaying them, since that strategy was a bit too weak in vanilla
..The figures specials had a whole different dynamic that was integral to how figures worked
..but the cities are just more of the same?

What does the cities expansion want to do to the metagame? What corrections or improvements or changes does it want to make? The achievements should be tailored to that.

I like your ideas quite a bit! I too made some recommendations about changing up some of the achievements (see my OP post above).
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teasel

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2013, 05:25:46 pm »
+2

with the current rule,the player who draws dublin instantly gains 3 achievement (white flag achievement,splay right achievement and of course the flag itself) there is no card in the game with the same amount of achievement power and that includes high level figures
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ConMan

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2013, 06:35:57 pm »
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What if the achievements weren't permanently gained, like the attacks used to be? So the first person to splay right due to a city gets the appropriate acheivement, but then anyone else can play a new splay-right city to claim it off them?
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ipofanes

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2013, 03:55:12 am »
+1

Some of the special achievements amounted to taking a detour from the scoring and teching strategy, which is good. Scoring Monument with Masonry is a trap more often than not. Having to meld and activate Translation rarely does much for me if I can't get an achievement. Empiricism's winning condition can be pulled off but requires concentrating on bulbs, which is a risky proposition. I agree with Kahryl that new special achievements should do something similar. "All of your top cards are cities" is a bit harsh (if it means "all five", otherwise it's too easy as an early grab), but "four of your top cards" sounds about right. "City B endorses City A" sounds interesting too. "If you Endorse and have the choice between 4 dogmas" may also be nice.
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Kahryl

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 10:41:36 am »
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"If you Endorse and have the choice between 4 dogmas" may also be nice.
This is the best idea for a cities achievement yet, very thematic. I like achievements that encourage you to do something fun that would normally be too impractical to set up. In fact maybe that should be the basis for judging them. Setting up Monument: fun. Empire: not so much. History: fun. Heritage: Meh.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 10:48:21 am by Kahryl »
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ray

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 11:22:40 am »
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Something based on the new cities are good, but, isn't it too simple?
How about something like: A top red/blue/green/yellow/purple city of highest value which can be transfered when the board changes
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ipofanes

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2013, 05:11:22 am »
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Something based on the new cities are good, but, isn't it too simple?
I haven't played Home very often, but this never happened yet. I'd guess it's on a similar scale as Supremacy.
Quote
How about something like: A top red/blue/green/yellow/purple city of highest value which can be transfered when the board changes
Which rules are you referring to here?
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popsofctown

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 06:29:35 am »
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with the current rule,the player who draws dublin instantly gains 3 achievement (white flag achievement,splay right achievement and of course the flag itself) there is no card in the game with the same amount of achievement power and that includes high level figures

Alfred Nobel has just as much achievement power.  Winning in three icons is about as easy as having the most visible cards of whatever color Dublin is.
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Kahryl

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2013, 10:15:10 am »
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with the current rule,the player who draws dublin instantly gains 3 achievement (white flag achievement,splay right achievement and of course the flag itself) there is no card in the game with the same amount of achievement power and that includes high level figures

Alfred Nobel has just as much achievement power.  Winning in three icons is about as easy as having the most visible cards of whatever color Dublin is.

Even worse: Roland hill.
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2013, 12:07:51 pm »
+1

I just lost a game yesterday to Dublin...wholly unsatisfying (for me at least).

"Oh your civilization has built Dublin? Curses!!! However will my massive industrial society be able to compete??? Oh well, I guess that's it for us then"
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teasel

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2013, 03:16:08 pm »
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with the current rule,the player who draws dublin instantly gains 3 achievement (white flag achievement,splay right achievement and of course the flag itself) there is no card in the game with the same amount of achievement power and that includes high level figures

Alfred Nobel has just as much achievement power.  Winning in three icons is about as easy as having the most visible cards of whatever color Dublin is.

getting double in 3 icons is way harder than just melding a card and have that pile bigger than your opponent,that is not to mention that as soon as i nuke alfred nobel,his achievement are all undone but once dublin hits,you are keeping at least 2 achievements... and there are other city with both an arrow and a flag... berlin, st.petersburg and washington all do this too

but anyway the point it's that it just that the new achievements too easy to achieve and gives easy victories to player who don't bother with score at all and just makes cities game frustating
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 08:23:14 pm by teasel »
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hoff

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2013, 08:25:02 pm »
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Some playtesting feedback for Carl Chudyk:

My friend and I have both played hundreds of games on Isotropic, and we both think these free city achievements for splaying and flags are pretty awful.

The cities that instantly jump you three achievements are the most egregious -- I'm looking at you, Dublin!

But the achievements are also just lame, even when you just snag one of them. As others have said, they don't require any set up (like Monument or World or Destiny). They are totally luck-based: you have to draw a city with an arrow (and I've missed out on a splay achievement several times because that color was already splayed in that direction).

I much preferred the first-to-10 castles/crowns/etc. achievements. Those indirectly interacted with the city cards in a few ways:
1) Cities are the most icon-dense cards.
2) Cities allow you to tuck cards from your hand, increasing your icon counts.
3) Cities that splay can increase your icon count.

Also, the first-to-10 achievements encouraged you to do something you wouldn't otherwise do. For example, if my opponent has 2 lightbulbs and I have 7, normally it would be a waste of time to try to get to 10 lightbulbs. But with the first-to-10 achievement, I might take an action or two to do it!

If they keep the splay and flag special achievements (Fame, Repute, Legend, Victory, and Glory), then I would suggest nerfing them to require an action to claim. That way you would have to spend 3 actions to get 3 achievements with Dublin, and they'd still be worth claiming, because, hey, achievements! To reduce the memory issues and to remove the random punishment for drawing a city with an arrow that happens to match the splay you already have in its color, I would simplify the arrow conditions:

Fame: You may claim this achievement if you have a top city with an up arrow icon.
Repute: You may claim this achievement if you have a top city with a right arrow icon.
Legend: You may claim this achievement if you have a top city with a left arrow icon.
Victory: You may claim this achievement if you have a visible black flag.
Glory: You may claim this achievement if you have a white flag that counts as an achievement.
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chomskyrim

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2013, 11:18:20 am »
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I still think special achievements based on tactics and tucking is possible. A while back I suggested these:

Cosmopolitianism - claim this achievement if you have 5 visible cities, each with at least one of each icon type.

Centralization - claim this achievement if you have four visible cities with in one color, each sharing an icon type.

Tradition - Claim this achievement if all five bottom cards on your board are cities.

Constitution - claim this achievement immediately if you have five top cards on your board and melding a city would splay your last unsplayed color.

Trade Centre - claim this achievement if you have six visible bonuses on city cards. 

To explain my reasoning, I wanted to make achievements that 1. used cities obviously, 2. could not all be claimed by making a really big board, 3. had flavor that had something in particular to do with cities, since the current cities special achievements are flavor-weak.

I think the best of these is Tradition, which I would change to

Tradition - Claim this achievement immediately if all five bottom cards on your board are visible and are cities.

Here's my reasoning. This achievement can be claimed early through careful tucking through endorse actions and splaying, or late by a mass tucking card like Reformation or Socialism if you have 5 cities in your hand. It can't be claimed using Industrialization or Nylon. It is hard to get, but not out of reach (similarly to World, and also the current cities achievements are too easy). And the card flavor matches what it does: your cities "lay the foundation" for your civilization.

The others I proposed are a lot more meh. Can anybody think of more achievements of similar to this?
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AJD

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2013, 12:44:03 pm »
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The problem with "visible cities" is that IRL it's not necessarily obvious whether a given tucked card is a city or not.
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chomskyrim

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2013, 03:21:40 pm »
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Which could be solved by adding a different pattern to the card background, using a different border color, or some other artistic device on the IRL cards, depending on what is possible for the designers and printers to do.
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ipofanes

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Re: New "No Place Like Home" (Cities) special achievements
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2013, 03:01:48 am »
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Tradition - Claim this achievement immediately if all five bottom cards on your board are visible and are cities.

I like most of these, and what's not to like about giving Socialism a slight boost. Also, I can understand that the "visible" condition is necessary for real-life games. However, Tradition requires the splaying of all five colours, which is an achievement in itself (requiring Innovation). This may lend itself to Dublin-like series of achievements. How about making this a sacrifice achievement similar to the Figures: Remove a bottom city card. Repeat this action. If you perform it four/five times in a row, achieve Tradition. (though Iconoclasm would be more fitting)
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