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[liopoil]

In recently finished MXXIX there was a bit of confusion regarding wincons and deciding who wins in specific scenarios. To minimize future confusion I think it would be a good idea to make a standard for how to handle these situations. A few people agreed with me in the MXXIX speccy, so I'm going ahead and making the thread.

So the idea is to make a default for how to handle all the situations in normal games. Mods are free to make whatever wincons or other ways to resolve endgames if they want, but the idea is that if they deviate from whatever we agree upon here, they should make it very clear that they are doing so and how it will work in their OP of their game. Perhaps even in closed-setup games (but maybe I am biased here because I don't like closed setups in general).

Eventually, maybe sudgy can include this in his mafia rules thread.

[ashersky]

Here's my wincons post from Shakespeare:

Teasers:

Here is a list of possible primary win conditions in this game.  At least two of the following are guaranteed to be in the game.  Please note, these are listed with basic mafia terminology used; words may change for flavor purposes only.

Town: You win when all threats to town have been eliminated.

Mafia: You win when mafia controls half the town, or nothing can stop that from happening.

Serial Killer: You win when you are the only player alive, or nothing can stop that from happening.

Werewolves: You win when werewolves control half the town, or nothing can stop that from happening.

Survivor: You win when any faction achieves its win condition and you are still alive.

[liopoil]

My idea is this:

Have all wincons be "You win all alive players belong to your faction, or this is inevitable"

So endgames work like this:

- If everyone dies, everyone loses
- If mafia control half the town and there's no way for town to take it back (through something like vig+doctor), the game ends with a mafia win.
- In general, play continues until this wincon is met for some faction, or everyone dies, or there is absolutely no way to prevent a specific faction winning. Mods should err on the side of continuing play, because hey, it can't hurt.
- There is no "HEA" silliness or whatever, and no draws, shared victories, or anything. If both factions want to no lynch and no kill repeatedly, the faction who no lynches/no kills first is forced to kill/lynch.

[liopoil]

Part of my idea is that the customary part of the mafia win condition that says "you win when you control half the town" is really meant as a provision to make the game end right away when it is clear that mafia will eventually eliminate all the town. but then when you add "or nothing can prevent that from happening" it is redundant, so might as well get rid of the half-of-town thing

[Jimmmmm]

Here are some of the big questions that need answering:

Does Town need a living member to win? IE what happens if everyone dies? What if there's only a Survivor left?
What happens if it ends up with 2 opposing scum remaining?
What happens if Town refuses to lynch and scum refuses to kill?

[Jimmmmm]

ninja'd

[ashersky]

The "nothing can prevent that from happening" clause I believe exists due to multiple scum factions or town PRs.

I see it as meaning if you had 2 scum vs 1 VT and 1 Town Vig going into night, the clause kicks in and you play out the night, whereas if it were 2 VTs, game over.

Whether town needs to survive to win probably needs to be explicitedly mentioned.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

I actually had a noobish question about this.

Let's say you're town. Do you win if town wins, even if you're dead? i.e. should you try to stay alive at all costs, or could a tactical sacrifice be possibly justified? (idk if that would ever be strategically appropriate though)

[Jimmmmm]

Of course, in some games win conditions are not public, so there might be games in which this is deviated from without everyone being told that this is deviated from. I think this is a good standard, but in general the mod needs to ensure that they know the result of every possible scenario and they know every possible rule to the best of their ability, and they've given the correct amount of information on this to each player and to the players as a whole. And of course players need to ensure they understand the rules and all the information that has been provided to them.

[Jimmmmm]

I actually had a noobish question about this.

Let's say you're town. Do you win if town wins, even if you're dead? i.e. should you try to stay alive at all costs, or could a tactical sacrifice be possibly justified? (idk if that would ever be strategically appropriate though)

Yes. If Town wins, everyone with the Town wincon wins, even if dead.

[Jimmmmm]

I actually had a noobish question about this.

Let's say you're town. Do you win if town wins, even if you're dead? i.e. should you try to stay alive at all costs, or could a tactical sacrifice be possibly justified? (idk if that would ever be strategically appropriate though)

Yes. If Town wins, everyone with the Town wincon wins, even if dead.

Similarly, if Mafia wins, all Mafia members win, even if dead. In general, you only need to survive to win if it specifically says so in your PM, or it's obvious because you're self-aligned.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Gotcha thanks

[liopoil]

The "nothing can prevent that from happening" clause I believe exists due to multiple scum factions or town PRs.

I see it as meaning if you had 2 scum vs 1 VT and 1 Town Vig going into night, the clause kicks in and you play out the night, whereas if it were 2 VTs, game over.

Whether town needs to survive to win probably needs to be explicitedly mentioned.

I agree with the nothing can prevent that from happening clause, it's the "half of town" bit I disagree with because for instance, it gives mafia the win in the scenario you mentioned.

[ashersky]

The "nothing can prevent that from happening" clause I believe exists due to multiple scum factions or town PRs.

I see it as meaning if you had 2 scum vs 1 VT and 1 Town Vig going into night, the clause kicks in and you play out the night, whereas if it were 2 VTs, game over.

Whether town needs to survive to win probably needs to be explicitedly mentioned.

I agree with the nothing can prevent that from happening clause, it's the "half of town" bit I disagree with because for instance, it gives mafia the win in the scenario you mentioned.

How about "You win when mafia control half the town, and nothing can stop that from happening."  The "and" instead of "if" would make it mean you have to be sure nothing can take away that control.

[Voltaire]

I personally don't see how town can win if they're all dead. If they need to control half the town, and the town is dead, they don't win. It's my take that the "meta" is that all participating town players represent the entire town, not some subset.

That's my take on it. Open to other arguments.

[liopoil]

I too think that if everyone dies, everyone should lose.

ash: I don't quite understand. If scum controls half the town, of course nothing can stop that from happening, it's true already! maybe something like: you win if mafia controls town if there is no way for this to later no longer be the case. But really, I think that's more clunky than just "you win when only mafia-aligned players remain, or nothing can prevent that from happening.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

What if everybody is killed except for one person, but then he drops his eyeglasses and breaks them?

[ashersky]

What if everybody is killed except for one person, but then he drops his eyeglasses and breaks them?

I like this guy, even if he beat me in GokoDom.

[Archetype]

What if everybody is killed except for one person, but then he drops his eyeglasses and breaks them?

I like this guy, even if he beat me in GokoDom.

He's, like, my new favorite poster.

Can't we just stick to the MafiaScum versions of the alignments and their wincons?

[Jimmmmm]

What if everybody is killed except for one person, but then he drops his eyeglasses and breaks them?

I like this guy, even if he beat me in GokoDom.

He's, like, my new favorite poster.

Can't we just stick to the MafiaScum versions of the alignments and their wincons?

Says the mod who used different wincons in the game that sparked this discussion.

[Archetype]

I was just being facetious!

But in my defense the wincons were posted there in the OP. I realize that players were referring to the mafiascum version, but they could still check the thread since they were playing from there and not mafiascum.

I think sudgy should edit in the Mafia and Town win conditions, that ashersky posted earlier in the thread, into the rules. Then if they mod wishes to make changes to those alignments or adds new ones, they specify that in their own thread.

I think Town can win if they are all dead. Of course, there are a few exceptions, but it helps to mitigate that 'Happily Ever After' situation by letting Town have that as a win.

[Voltaire]

But in my defense the wincons were posted there in the OP. I realize that players were referring to the mafiascum version, but they could still check the thread since they were playing from there and not mafiascum.

I think sudgy should edit in the Mafia and Town win conditions, that ashersky posted earlier in the thread, into the rules. Then if they mod wishes to make changes to those alignments or adds new ones, they specify that in their own thread.

I think Town can win if they are all dead. Of course, there are a few exceptions, but it helps to mitigate that 'Happily Ever After' situation by letting Town have that as a win.

And I want to make it clear - it was my fault I didn't understand them, and no-one else's.

That said, sudgy shouldn't edit in ash's version - he should edit in whatever we decide collectively is the best "default" option once we've talked this out, which is the point of the thread.

[ashersky]

That said, sudgy shouldn't edit in ash's version - he should edit in whatever we decide collectively is the best "default" option once we've talked this out, which is the point of the thread.

I don't know if we'll get a collectively agreed version.  For example, I don't see consensus on whether town needs to have a member alive or not being reached.  Mods will always have the wincons they want in their games anyway.  My versions above are a good starting point.

[Jimmmmm]

That said, sudgy shouldn't edit in ash's version - he should edit in whatever we decide collectively is the best "default" option once we've talked this out, which is the point of the thread.

I don't know if we'll get a collectively agreed version.  For example, I don't see consensus on whether town needs to have a member alive or not being reached.  Mods will always have the wincons they want in their games anyway.  My versions above are a good starting point.

I don't think it matters that much if we collectively agree. I think what matters is that each for the things that we don't necessarily agree on the mods make sure to specify.

[yuma]

I really don't like games that have an ending of "everyone loses." To me that is far away sillier than a "shared win" or a "draw."

Everyone loses? What the hell did I just play this game for then?