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Author Topic: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages  (Read 100572 times)

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nopawnsintended

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #300 on: October 01, 2013, 01:34:11 am »
+2

I made Satan's Workshop.  Sorry.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #301 on: October 01, 2013, 01:51:21 am »
+8

I made Satan's Workshop.  Sorry.
Ehh... we all make cards that don't work out (I submitted a Workshop/Scout combo last contest that got almost universally panned).

The important thing is to figure out what went wrong, adjust, and submit a card for the next contest that is terrible/broken in a whole different way.
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RobertJ

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #302 on: October 01, 2013, 05:58:25 am »
0

There wasn't much enthusiasm for my card, which was:

Quote
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.

The evolution of it is a bit convoluted so I won't say much but here are a couple of comments. I thought the tension between trashing now for the benefit, or keeping to accumulate more ferrets could lead to some interesting decisions. I definitely wanted both buying it as a one shot $4 or as a way to breed more ferrets for a mega-turn to be viable depending on the board. Probably as the card is the incentive for keeping them is not enough. An earlier version had a + Buy (someone suggested this in a comment I think as well). At one stage I also allowed any action card to be ferreted out of the trash. I'm curious to know whether the card would have been more popular with these changes (as below),  or whether people think the whole concept is uninteresting.

Quote
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret or gain an action card from the trash.
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awildnoobappeared

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #303 on: October 01, 2013, 06:13:25 am »
0

I made this card, a few people liked it but not a lot of people talked about it:

Quote
Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.

I still think it's neat, it's not complicated but it still involves some uncomfortable decisions which is what I aimed for. If anything it may be a little too strong, as cards which achieve multiple aims in the early game tend to be really strong (examples: Ambassador, Masquerade, Jack, Junk Dealer)
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awildnoobappeared

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #304 on: October 01, 2013, 06:24:56 am »
0

I made Robber Baron.  I just sort of threw it together.  I hindsight, it's kinda shitty.

I like the basic idea of a card where you discard a Ruins for some sort of benefit, but it needed to be much stronger as this card was no better than Militia if you connect it with a Ruins (assuming the Ruins you gained would've been a Copper), and dead otherwise.

I can imagine it working if the discard wasn't contingent on discarding a Ruins, and discarding got you $4, though maybe that is too strong as it makes it easy to repeatedly get to $5 even with a rubbish hand.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #305 on: October 01, 2013, 06:27:19 am »
0

I made Sacrifice.
The hardest was to choose the name.
The card itself seemed pretty nice to me. I first thought to "trash a card from your hand => gain a spoils" but I didn't like it for $4 and I thought it needed a small bonus. Then I gave it +$2, raised it to $5.
Then I realized a card that gives you $2 in Dark ages, with theme of poverty, it's pretty rare. But hey, there's already Counterfeit that may give you many purchase power, and Altar, so why not ?
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GeoLib

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #306 on: October 01, 2013, 05:16:56 pm »
0

Any word on when the results will be up?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #307 on: October 01, 2013, 08:11:23 pm »
+7

Any word on when the results will be up?

Hmm, I could do that. Or I could play the demo for the new Ace Attorney game.

I love that series.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #308 on: October 02, 2013, 11:39:22 am »
+6

OK, I have tallied the votes. Full results later, but for now, the winner.

This time we had a tie between two cards. I once again broke it with my vote after the rest had been tallied.

The winner, with 14 votes, is Mortuary, by Markusin!

The runner up, with 13 votes, is Renovate, by Robz888!

In third place, with 11 votes, we have Incendiarist, by GwinnR!
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #309 on: October 02, 2013, 11:40:48 am »
+2

The Secret History of My Vote

I voted for Mortuary because Renovate is way too close to a Dark Ages outtake. A Dark Ages outtake which was itself called Renovate.

Renovate
Types: Action
Cost: $5
{+1 Action.} Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more than it, putting it into your hand.

Quote from: Donald X.
- There was a Remodel that put the card into your hand. Originally it didn't give +1 Action; then it did and was crazy.

I don't think Robz's Renovate really fixes the issues this card had. I don't think the issues are insurmountable, but I also don't think bumping the cost and effect down by $1 are enough to fix it.
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #310 on: October 02, 2013, 12:09:52 pm »
+2

Let my weeping commence.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #311 on: October 02, 2013, 12:14:52 pm »
0

Let my weeping commence.

I'm curious: did you intentionally try to fix up the Dark Ages outtake of the same name, or is it a coincidence that your card has the same name and function?
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #312 on: October 02, 2013, 12:50:28 pm »
+1

Let my weeping commence.

I'm curious: did you intentionally try to fix up the Dark Ages outtake of the same name, or is it a coincidence that your card has the same name and function?

Coincidence. I've never heard of or seen the card you mentioned!
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sudgy

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #313 on: October 02, 2013, 01:01:15 pm »
0

Wait, the results aren't up yet?
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GwinnR

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #314 on: October 02, 2013, 01:15:50 pm »
+7

I'm happy that you liked my card:

Quote
Incendiarist
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an… Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.

Secret History and my thoughts:

As someone assumed, I used a German-English-Dictionnary (http://dict.leo.org/) for the name. It should be someone who set fire to buildings and other things. The dictionnary says also incendiary, firebug, fire raiser, firestarter, arsonist and torch. I don't really care about the name, so if someone wants to use this card, feel free to rename it. But I don't think it needs "Iron" in his name, because it gives not the real "Iron-"effects like Ironmonger and Ironworks. It is more like Transmute and Tribute which have the same idea, but give other effects. Maybe this card should start with "T" ;-)
But for an attack and to have kind of iron, we can also name it "Arms Dealer".

To the pricing:
I don't understand, how this could be to strong. Every other Curser (Witch, Mountebank,...) or Looter (Cultist) slogs the deck much more. Normally you only distribute 3 Curses, don't want to trash action cards and Spoils are not so hot. Of course you can choose, which is nice, but I think not so important.
Maybe it is too weak (arguments above). I think this has to be tested. But it is interesting, that many people think it is too strong and many people think it is too weak. Maybe it is just right ;-)

I like cards like Ironmonger and Ironworks, where you get a profit of the cards you gain or have in deck. So why not making something similar with trashing cards? First i wanted to make it just like Ironmonger with +1 Action; +1 card; +$1, but it is not so Dark Age-like. So I decided to use Ruins and Spoils. And as "normal" action cards give actions cards (Ruins), treasure cards give money (Spoils) and it is something different with victory cards (normally cards, but here Curses).
Now I think it should be changed, to make it more interesting. Victories-->Ruins; Actions-->Curses; Treasures-->Spoils. So you get more, when you trash something better. Normally you don't want to trash actions, but if you do, the others get Curses. And you start trashing Estates, which distributes Ruins, which can be trashed for distributing Curses.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #315 on: October 02, 2013, 01:29:19 pm »
+1

Wait, the results aren't up yet?
Patience, young Padawan. Oh, and congrats to the winner (and runners up).

Also, because it seems like everyone else went through the "this was my card" post, I made Blood Feud. Never really liked the name, but I liked the idea that it signified that vengeance was destructive for both you and your opponent.

I seem to be good at picking obvious ideas; my card was one of the zillion woodcutter variants from the last contest, and now I was one of the several people who submitted "helpful ruins" cards. Ironically, I decided on a "helpful ruins" approach after my last card was criticized for being too boring and I wanted to do something "different."

The idea of a self-junker seems (and apparently was) obvious, but it runs into the problem that it needs some way of clearing away the ruins; that suggested letting it trash ruins as well (and play them while it's at it, so you get something). Once that's established, I figured "why not make it a power-trasher in it's own right". Which is how the "reveal up to 3 cards, play any actions, then trash the revealed cards" language came about. I toyed with the right number of cards to trash, and settled on 3; one less than Chapel but one more than Steward. I quickly realized that the "cannibal village" aspect was the most interesting part, but left the self-junking in mainly so it would still have some use (collide 2 Blood Feuds and it becomes a weak Junker for your opponents, and either way your deck is still getting some lint for you to clean out) later in the game (before your final mega-turn, when it's essentially "+3 actions"). That's why it has a few weak vanilla bonuses on the first option, so that you get something ok from colliding the 2 cards.

I like the "cannibal village" idea in the abstract, but feel like it needs some way of getting actions into your deck that you want to trash (either by self-junking, or by junking your opponent) or else it basically becomes a weak Chapel; that's honestly the main reason why I didn't dump the self-ruins effect.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #316 on: October 02, 2013, 01:52:39 pm »
+1

Congrats to Markusin and Mortuary!

Now I'm (sort of) sad that I submitted the card I did (Carpenter). I was planning on submitting a different card, but changed my mind after asking WW for advice (not blaming WW, he had good insights!). Anyway, here's the card I almost submitted, which is a lot like Mortuary:

Quote
Academy
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Actions
+$1
Trash a card from your hand. If you trash a card costing at least $3, then +3 Cards.

It's obviously somewhat different, but has a lot of the same ideas. I was planning on submitting this to DA Round 2, but now it would look too similar to Mortuary :(
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #317 on: October 02, 2013, 02:40:39 pm »
+1

My card was Barrister (and Claim). I knew a trashing attack would be a tough sell, but I wasn't expecting zero votes. :'(

Quote
Barrister
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.

Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.

Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.

Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.

Anyhow, as I mentioned in a previous thread, this wasn't a bona-fide submission, and I would have disqualified it had it won. It's actually for my expansion, Enterprise, where there is enough room for 6 copies of Claim. I submitted it to this contest for feedback because it seemed to fit the expansion (trashing Attack, starting deck change, gaining from the trash).

First of all, I want it to be known that I have nothing against Lawyers; I do not think they are all thieves. The card's pre-Guilds name was Tax Collector. Once Taxman was revealed, I needed another name that would work with the get-other-players'-Claims mechanic. "Historian" didn't sound Dominion-y to me. I had it named "Assessor" for a while, but I really didn't love that name either. Eventually I hit upon "Barrister" and went with it. I think it sounds more Dominion-y than "Lawyer", but that could just be because I live in the U.S. where "Barrister" isn't really in the vernacular.

As for the card itself… One day I hit upon a cool twist for a trashing attack: trying to get a card that you could only find in other players' decks. The smoothest way to make this happen was to have a Copper replacement that you needed two of to activate. Unfortunately, this naturally led to at Thief-like card, so already it's scoring low on the popularity ladder. Do you have any idea how hard it is to make a Thief variant that costs $4 and isn't strictly better than Thief? Noble Brigand should give you some idea. To differentiate it, I decided to make it cost $5 and beef it up a little. Unfortunately, this just led to everyone calling it a "Super-Thief".

The card has to be able to get any Treasure from the trash, rather than just the ones it trashed itself. Otherwise your opponents could just be all, "I just Upgraded my Claim, lolz, try to steal it now." Here's something nobody noticed: unlike Thief, Barrister can only gain a single card per play, even in a game with more than 2 players. So it's not really strictly better than Thief, even at $5.

Aaaaaanyhow, the version I have printed out has the +2 Cards, but doesn't allow you to trash your own Treasures and doesn't allow you to choose not to trash your opponent's Treasures. So it's even closer to Thief. Luckily this contest wasn't a total bust for Barrister in terms of feedback. WanderingWinder's analysis has convinced me that +2 Cards is too strong. I believe I'll try this version next:

Quote
Barrister
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.

+$2 instead of +2 Cards makes it less easy to build an engine that just spams Barristers. It might still be too strong, but hopefully not.

As for Claim, I was surprised to hear many people say that it wouldn't be worth gaining another "Copper". That seems ridiculous. If you already have a Claim and gain a second one, that second one is basically a Gold. Heck, if you have one Claim in your hand when you steal the other one, that's pretty much a free Gold (in your hand!) right there. That seems worth it to me. If you don't think stealing Gold with Thief is worth it, then I don't know what to tell you.

Anyhow, thanks to everybody who gave feedback on the card. At this point I'm honestly considering scrapping it from Enterprise, but I'm not sure yet. Some people like the concept and some just didn't think it belonged in Dark Ages, which is totally fine. It would be nice to have a trashing attack in my set and I haven't thought of a better one yet, so I'm on the fence.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 04:25:35 pm by LastFootnote »
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #318 on: October 02, 2013, 03:27:09 pm »
+7

OK, I have tallied the votes. Full results later, but for now, the winner.

This time we had a tie between two cards. I once again broke it with my vote after the rest had been tallied.

The winner, with 14 votes, is Mortuary, by Markusin!

The runner up, with 13 votes, is Renovate, by Robz888!

In third place, with 11 votes, we have Incendiarist, by GwinnR!
Oh gosh, wow I just felt it in my heart that the results would end up like this (tiebreaker with my card)! I'd like to thank LastFootnote for organizing this contest and not denying my card the tie breaking vote a second time. I owe you one for that. I also want to thank everyone who voted. YOU GUYS ARE THE BEST!

Now that my Oscar speech is over. I can talk about this card a bit.

The Secret History of Mortuary:
Its history is rather short, actually.

The first clear idea I came up with for a Dark Ages card was one that gave you a bonus when you trashed a card while it was in play. I thought about having it give coin for half the cost of the trashed card, but that seemed hard to balance and track in the end. Imagine buying a mint with 4 Platinums while 2 of these were in play. I settled on card draw in the end, because its arguably the easiest to balance and track. Card draw can't make your turn any better than the best that the rest of your deck can do, and card draw is a do-it-and-forget mechanic.

It's too bad that the "while in play" stack potential wasn't obvious on the card. A lot of people seemed to interpret it as an "if you do" effect on its own card trashing. I could have added a clarification saying "When you trash 2 or more cards simultaneously, draw a card for each trashed card".

The version I submitted is in fact the only version I playtested. I designed it that way because I wanted to balance the card around celebrating Dark Ages. You get a boost for doing crazy stuff with TfB, Fortress, Procession, Rats, and 1-shots. You're not rewarded to trashing a bunch of Coppers and Curses with Forge or something. If it did, I'd probably have to give it a watered down bottom effect like Alehouse's cycling. That's not so fun.

It also turns out that being able to trash from the discard non-terminally is itself a pretty decent ability. It wasn't too much worse than Junk Dealer (a really good card) when it's the only trasher, and it still kinda stacks over itself. A potentially good buy in junking games. When there are other cool trashers, having Mortuary be able to trash from the discard to help you get the ball rolling.

And about the $2-cost over 1$-cost restriction, well gosh Overgrown Estate gives you a card anyway when you trash it. Also, player's often keep their Necropolis. Hovel at least gives a way to trash it on it's own.

Someone suggested (I think it was Nic) that this card can maybe give the bonus whenever a non-Copper card is trashed. That might not be bad. I do suspect that activating the bottom effect for all card trashes is too strong, given this card's blitzing potential.
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #319 on: October 02, 2013, 03:32:48 pm »
0

Congrats to Markusin and Mortuary!

Now I'm (sort of) sad that I submitted the card I did (Carpenter). I was planning on submitting a different card, but changed my mind after asking WW for advice (not blaming WW, he had good insights!). Anyway, here's the card I almost submitted, which is a lot like Mortuary:

Quote
Academy
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Actions
+$1
Trash a card from your hand. If you trash a card costing at least $3, then +3 Cards.

It's obviously somewhat different, but has a lot of the same ideas. I was planning on submitting this to DA Round 2, but now it would look too similar to Mortuary :(
Sorry about that. Was that the card you preferred over the similar card in the ballot? It's similar, and seems pretty good for Dark Ages. I wonder what sort of criticisms it did/would have received.

Really, I'm surprised the only other card with a while in play effect that cared about trashed cards was Alehouse. That's some unexplored design space.
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #320 on: October 02, 2013, 03:35:12 pm »
0

Let my weeping commence.
I feel for you, man. I went through the same thing after the Hinterlands results were posted.
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cluckyb

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #321 on: October 02, 2013, 03:43:37 pm »
+1

I did Smelter (B). It was thrown together at the last minute when I decided I didn't really like my other ideas.

I spent a while trying to come up with a trash attack that didn't completely suck to be hit with. The idea I almost went with was a forced demodel (everyone else trashes a card from their hand and gains a card costing less than it or zero). Something like "Each other player draws up to 5 cards in their hand and then trashes a card from their hand and gains a card of their choice costing less than the trashed card or 0.". Giving them five cards to choose from stops the forced trashing from being really sucky.

The issue is that in the stated form, it'll probably just be a cutpurse. Could even help the other guy if they have curses in hand. Could add a "no trashing curses" rule, but that makes it wordy. Forcing the trashed card to cost $1 or $2 now makes the trash effect suckier. Draw KC C C C C and get hit with this and well damn. Maybe I could've done "Discards a curse from hand, or trashes a card other than a curse of their choice costing less than the trashed card or 0". That way you can't get rid of curses, but KC Curse Curse Curse Curse doesn't screw with you but ultimately I decided that forced trashing was just never much fun and I should go with the boring alternative.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #322 on: October 02, 2013, 03:51:49 pm »
0

Quote
Barrister
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a card from the trash.

Is this a typo, or are you really planning on having it be able to gain any card from the trash? Doesn't that have the "TFB-a-Province" problems that were discussed in this thread, except worse, since this card doesn't trash your own Province?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #323 on: October 02, 2013, 04:07:02 pm »
0

+1 to LF for the theme with Barrister.  I said I would do it. :P
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #324 on: October 02, 2013, 04:24:55 pm »
+1

Quote
Barrister
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a card from the trash.

Is this a typo, or are you really planning on having it be able to gain any card from the trash? Doesn't that have the "TFB-a-Province" problems that were discussed in this thread, except worse, since this card doesn't trash your own Province?

Ah, thanks. I typed that up quick from memory. Any Treasure card.
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