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Author Topic: Remake-Feodum  (Read 3844 times)

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AHoppy

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Remake-Feodum
« on: September 08, 2013, 07:23:23 am »
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http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130908/log.50fa856de4b0b5f05eb41f19.1378639007760.txt




I know I made plenty of mistakes here, but what I really want to know is if it was a bad idea to remake the feodum into a duchy.  I'm really not sure what lost this one for me (apart from not being able to keep track of how many silvers I had).  I know turn 8 I probably should have gotten a masterpiece and overpaid 3, but instead I got a woodcutter, thinking the +buy would be best.  It turned out it was good (gave me double feodum T10), but would this have been the optimal play in general or was that lucky?  Overall though, I thought this was a very interesting board.  Thanks for the advice!

Warfreak2

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Re: Remake-Feodum
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2013, 08:58:49 am »
+1

The optimal strategy on this board is just to buy Silvers on <$5, Masterpieces until they are all gone, and then only Feodum (or Province if you got fewer than 18 Silvers, though that's a bad situation to be in). Any sort of trashing is just going to be far too slow to compete with Masterpiece/Feodum.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Remake-Feodum
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2013, 10:00:30 am »
+4

The optimal strategy on this board is just to buy Silvers on <$5, Masterpieces until they are all gone, and then only Feodum (or Province if you got fewer than 18 Silvers, though that's a bad situation to be in). Any sort of trashing is just going to be far too slow to compete with Masterpiece/Feodum.

I really don't think anyone knows what the "optimal strategy" is on this or any other board. And I'm doubtful that the strict buy order you've described is correct. Seems like you would lose the Feodum split very badly by only buying Masterpieces "until they are all gone" (or all the Silvers presumably). Though obviously every Feodum you can get will be worth a lot. It's not obvious to me at all what mix of Masterpiece/Feodum will give the most points when you are competing with your opponent for both of them. And Margrave looks like a must buy at some point for the attack, getting big money hands for overpaying Masterpiece, and the +buy for double Feodum.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Remake-Feodum
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2013, 11:08:05 am »
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You can let your opponent get the first three Feoda and only lose the split 3/5; if you bought more (and bigger) Masterpieces, you still easily have more points, and are in a better position to buy Provinces too. A Margrave looks like a good addition at some point, I'll concede that, but on pretty much any Masterpiece/Feodum board, it's hard to find anything that snowballs faster than just buying bigger Masterpieces with the Silver you got from the previous ones. If I just drop two Coppers to the discard attack, I get two fewer Silvers that turn, but you already sacrificed at least two Silvers one shuffle earlier by buying the Margrave, so it may be ignorable anyway.

For Trader/Feodum, the Feodum split matters - you never need to buy anything for more than $4. For Masterpiece/Feodum, the Silver split is more important - more Silvers now means more Silvers next shuffle, in an exponential feedback loop.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 11:10:15 am by Warfreak2 »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Remake-Feodum
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2013, 11:34:41 am »
+1

You can let your opponent get the first three Feoda and only lose the split 3/5; if you bought more (and bigger) Masterpieces, you still easily have more points, and are in a better position to buy Provinces too. A Margrave looks like a good addition at some point, I'll concede that, but on pretty much any Masterpiece/Feodum board, it's hard to find anything that snowballs faster than just buying bigger Masterpieces with the Silver you got from the previous ones. If I just drop two Coppers to the discard attack, I get two fewer Silvers that turn, but you already sacrificed at least two Silvers one shuffle earlier by buying the Margrave, so it may be ignorable anyway.

For Trader/Feodum, the Feodum split matters - you never need to buy anything for more than $4. For Masterpiece/Feodum, the Silver split is more important - more Silvers now means more Silvers next shuffle, in an exponential feedback loop.

This all sounds reasonable, my point was more that what you were describing was extraordinarily restrictive in terms of a strategy and it's likely that in many games you will need to deviate from the pattern you described depending on what your opponent does, what your draws are etc. It's misleading to describe such a strategy as "optimal".

edit: I'd still stand by Margrave as being good here, especially if it lets you grab a couple Feodum at a time to win the split big, or get a really nice overpay on Masterpiece which could be better than two separate Masterpiece overpays. There are scenarios like you describe where it doesn't work out for you, but I think on the whole it is a nice addition to the deck.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 11:39:14 am by Mic Qsenoch »
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Warfreak2

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Re: Remake-Feodum
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2013, 12:31:31 pm »
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Go players have a proverb - All proverbs are wrong.

Since I'm not being strict I guess I shouldn't use language like "optimal strategy"; but the simple buy order I described is going to beat any Remake opening here, hands down. In my book, Masterpiece/Feodum is one of the few combos where the absolute "ignore everything else on the board" is appropriate advice almost all of the time, and for a player who doesn't know about the power of it, sure there's better advice, but it's much longer.
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AHoppy

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Re: Remake-Feodum
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2013, 12:54:17 pm »
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The reason I picked up the remakes were also in defense against the torturers.  Also, to turn my estates into silvers.  I won the Feodum split, but was it detrimental to do so by remaking silvers into Feodoa?

DG

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Re: Remake-Feodum
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2013, 01:12:04 pm »
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With foedums you should certainly be trashing into them and trashing out of them. The maximum score comes from have as many triple silvers as foedums but going from 5-5 to 6-4, say, hardly loses you any points. Given you get a duchy and lots of silver for trashing a foedum it is usually worth it. 

I'd skip the opening warehouse here. It gets your remake played more often but each warehouse+remake turn leaves you with one card in hand. Whether or not you start with a remake you still need to get a 5 coin hand quickly for that margrave or torturer.
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mail-mi

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Re: Remake-Feodum
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2013, 04:52:53 pm »
+2

1. Overpay masterpiece, gain a stack of silvers.
2. Remake masterpieces into feoda
3. Profit.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Remake-Feodum
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2013, 01:40:03 pm »
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1. Overpay masterpiece, gain a stack of silvers.
2. Remake masterpieces into feoda
3. Profit.

If you have a stack of Silvers, it'll take some luck to match up Remake with the Masterpiece.
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achmed_sender

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Re: Remake-Feodum
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2013, 04:05:52 pm »
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1. Overpay masterpiece, gain a stack of silvers.
2. Remake masterpieces into feoda
3. Profit.

If you have a stack of Silvers, it'll take some luck to match up Remake with the Masterpiece.

Remaking Silver isnt bad either. But since you could get feoda instead if remakes, it's probably still bad
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