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[liopoil]

Can I claim to have made my choice when I really haven't? No no, that wouldn't be in the spirit of the game now would it...

I'm waiting for a rules clarification from tables.

[Tables]

I'll say at the end. I think my normal thoughts on Bilkis strategy work a little differently in 3 player games, though.

[liopoil]

Okay , I'm done now (for real)

[eHalcyon]

I'll say at the end. I think my normal thoughts on Bilkis strategy work a little differently in 3 player games, though.

Bilkis is a really weird leader.  Some people think it's overpowered (so flexible!) and some that it's really weak (so expensive!).  I find it very hard to pass on Bilkis, but also have to think carefully before actually using her.  Starting Age I with just $2 is tough, and Bilkis drains even more of that money.  I chose Bilkis on turn 1 of the leader draft and lucked into Macenas soon after that.  Croesus was also an option (in the final draft turn, I think) and it could have paired nicely with Bilkis to alleviate money concerns, but I also wanted Pythagoras so Macenas looked amazing there.





@lio, sending now.

[Voltgloss]

Bilkis is a natural fit for a Wonder that generates cash.

[Tables]

Sorry. When I said Bilkis, I meant Tomyris. Regarding Bilkis, I think a Bilkis play age I leaving you with 2 coins is only a good idea if you're going science. Otherwise your money is too limited in age I, and the effect just isn't useful age I.

[eHalcyon]

Bilkis is a natural fit for a Wonder that generates cash.

Definitely, but it doesn't make starting with $2 much better.

In my position, would you have started with Bilkis in Age I, considering that I had Macenas?  Also considering that Pythagoras was a choice too?  My final leader draft was Justinian vs. Croesus.  My thoughts were -- if I start with Bilkis, then Croesus is strictly better than Macenas in Age II.  Justinian and Pythagoras are both interesting VP leaders, with Justinian likely to be better if another player goes for Science.  China is a pretty good wonder for Science so that was a possibility (especially since I knew that Davio had a chance to take a good science leader).

In the end, I decided that starting with Bilkis was too risky.  Ideally I would get one of the choice browns, which costs $1.  with Bilkis, I would be left with only $1, and then if I use Bilkis (e.g. to get a green card) then I would be broke.  I don't want to be broke when debt is possible.  Yeah I could just build a wonder stage, but then I need to have those resources, which isn't always possible.

So I started with Macenas, planning to build early resources like usual, then get Bilkis unless my resource base was absolutely amazing.  I took Justinian over Croesus, so that in Age III I could choose one or the other depending on the situation.  If someone had contested on Science then I could have diversified into blues and reds, making Justinian worth a respectable amount.  As it happened, nobody else went Science and I got few reds and no blues, so Pythagoras was obvious.

[eHalcyon]

Sorry. When I said Bilkis, I meant Tomyris. Regarding Bilkis, I think a Bilkis play age I leaving you with 2 coins is only a good idea if you're going science. Otherwise your money is too limited in age I, and the effect just isn't useful age I.

Tomyris... Tomyris is a better with fewer players, I think.  But I also think I would try to win military even with Tomyris.  Lots of points there, and disincentive to opponents because they get a smaller prize for beating you.  I don't know, she's weird.

[Tables]

Sorry. When I said Bilkis, I meant Tomyris. Regarding Bilkis, I think a Bilkis play age I leaving you with 2 coins is only a good idea if you're going science. Otherwise your money is too limited in age I, and the effect just isn't useful age I.

Tomyris... Tomyris is a better with fewer players, I think.  But I also think I would try to win military even with Tomyris.  Lots of points there, and disincentive to opponents because they get a smaller prize for beating you.  I don't know, she's weird.

Well, now you've said it, that's pretty much what my thought was. In particular I've seen a few people fall into what I call the "Tomyris trap" where you play Tomyris, then totally ignore Military. The logic is you can go "lol, I don't care you can't hurt me, this card is worth 6 points pretty much." The issue is that, if you do follow that logic, then your neighbours can build just one military card and even if they lose to their other neighbour three times, they still end up with 6 points from military to your 0 - from one age I or age II card play, which is probably less costly than playing Tomyris was. In other words, playing Tomyris and then never competing military helps your neighbours more than it helps you. The obvious solution here is to not completely ignore military, but to be aware of it's implications in how military will play out.

In 3 player though, it gets much weirder, because Diplomacy is much stronger. And as an aside to that, I think Tomyris kind of combos with the other military leaders. Get an early military lead, then plonk down Tomyris, and your neighbours know they're fighting an uphill battle for fewer points than usual.

[eHalcyon]

Sorry. When I said Bilkis, I meant Tomyris. Regarding Bilkis, I think a Bilkis play age I leaving you with 2 coins is only a good idea if you're going science. Otherwise your money is too limited in age I, and the effect just isn't useful age I.

Tomyris... Tomyris is a better with fewer players, I think.  But I also think I would try to win military even with Tomyris.  Lots of points there, and disincentive to opponents because they get a smaller prize for beating you.  I don't know, she's weird.

Well, now you've said it, that's pretty much what my thought was. In particular I've seen a few people fall into what I call the "Tomyris trap" where you play Tomyris, then totally ignore Military. The logic is you can go "lol, I don't care you can't hurt me, this card is worth 6 points pretty much." The issue is that, if you do follow that logic, then your neighbours can build just one military card and even if they lose to their other neighbour three times, they still end up with 6 points from military to your 0 - from one age I or age II card play, which is probably less costly than playing Tomyris was. In other words, playing Tomyris and then never competing military helps your neighbours more than it helps you. The obvious solution here is to not completely ignore military, but to be aware of it's implications in how military will play out.

In 3 player though, it gets much weirder, because Diplomacy is much stronger. And as an aside to that, I think Tomyris kind of combos with the other military leaders. Get an early military lead, then plonk down Tomyris, and your neighbours know they're fighting an uphill battle for fewer points than usual.

So you want to save Tomyris for Age II?  I feel like, if I take Tomyris, I should do so in Age I.  Military lead isn't guaranteed, but you have a better shot with Tomyris discouraging others from building red.  But as for the other military leaders, why not just use them and skip Tomyris?  If I have 2 bonus shields in Age I, the others are probably already not so interested in competing.

Do you think that the strength of Diplomacy makes the Diplomacy wonder (Byzantium?) better in 3p?  I think I had it as a choice for this game, but I don't like to rule out military from the start, which is sort of what you do with Byzantium.

[Tables]

Sorry. When I said Bilkis, I meant Tomyris. Regarding Bilkis, I think a Bilkis play age I leaving you with 2 coins is only a good idea if you're going science. Otherwise your money is too limited in age I, and the effect just isn't useful age I.

Tomyris... Tomyris is a better with fewer players, I think.  But I also think I would try to win military even with Tomyris.  Lots of points there, and disincentive to opponents because they get a smaller prize for beating you.  I don't know, she's weird.

Well, now you've said it, that's pretty much what my thought was. In particular I've seen a few people fall into what I call the "Tomyris trap" where you play Tomyris, then totally ignore Military. The logic is you can go "lol, I don't care you can't hurt me, this card is worth 6 points pretty much." The issue is that, if you do follow that logic, then your neighbours can build just one military card and even if they lose to their other neighbour three times, they still end up with 6 points from military to your 0 - from one age I or age II card play, which is probably less costly than playing Tomyris was. In other words, playing Tomyris and then never competing military helps your neighbours more than it helps you. The obvious solution here is to not completely ignore military, but to be aware of it's implications in how military will play out.

In 3 player though, it gets much weirder, because Diplomacy is much stronger. And as an aside to that, I think Tomyris kind of combos with the other military leaders. Get an early military lead, then plonk down Tomyris, and your neighbours know they're fighting an uphill battle for fewer points than usual.

So you want to save Tomyris for Age II?  I feel like, if I take Tomyris, I should do so in Age I.  Military lead isn't guaranteed, but you have a better shot with Tomyris discouraging others from building red.  But as for the other military leaders, why not just use them and skip Tomyris?  If I have 2 bonus shields in Age I, the others are probably already not so interested in competing.

Do you think that the strength of Diplomacy makes the Diplomacy wonder (Byzantium?) better in 3p?  I think I had it as a choice for this game, but I don't like to rule out military from the start, which is sort of what you do with Byzantium.

No, not necessarily. It was more of an example - going the other way around would be fine, I think. That said, Tomyris costs 4 coins, so I'd usually be hesitant to play her in age I for largely the same reason I'd be hesitant to play Bilkis - although I suppose Tomyris has more potential to be effective during that age.

Diplomacy is definitely a bigger deal in 3 player, since a single diplomacy during an age halves the number of battles your neighbours fight. This can happen in 4 player, but you'd need two diplomacy to be played in an age, which is less likely. Halving your neighbours number of fights is a pretty huge deal, it considerably lowers the number points available from military. That said I don't have enough experience to tell you just how much better it is.

[Voltgloss]

I've had good success in RL playing Byzantium and playing red.  There's much less incentive for your opponents to contest you on red when they know you can just gut their winnings by suddenly building your wonder for insta-diplomacy.  Especially using the B side.

And if no one seriously contests you?  Then don't build your wonder.  Nothing says you have to build your wonder.

[eHalcyon]

I've had good success in RL playing Byzantium and playing red.  There's much less incentive for your opponents to contest you on red when they know you can just gut their winnings by suddenly building your wonder for insta-diplomacy.  Especially using the B side.

And if no one seriously contests you?  Then don't build your wonder.  Nothing says you have to build your wonder.

While it's true that you never have to build your wonder, and sometimes it is good not to, in general I don't want to go in with that plan.  There are almost always hands where you have nothing better to do, hands where there's something you really need to bury, and hands where both of those things are true.  My concern with Byzantium is that you either end up giving up on wonders or giving up on military immediately (something else I don't like to do).  I usually like to do both, so I don't really want to cut one out.  But I suppose in games where you play what you are dealt, you've got to make the best of it!

I have a few more thoughts on this, but it could affect others' choices this game so I'll put it in my QT instead.  PM for a link if you'd like.

[Tables]

eHalcyon - Builders Guild: 1 VP per wonder stage constructed by you and each of your neighbours. Cost: 2 Stone, 2 Brick, Glass. (Pays Bilkis 1 coin)
Davio - Arena: 3 Coins & 1 VP per wonder stage completed. Chain from: Dispensary. Cost: Ore, 2 Stone. (Earns 12 coins)
Liopoil - Palace: 8 VPs. Cost: Glass, Papyrus, Cloth, Brick, Wood, Ore, Stone. (Uses Wonder stage 2)


eHalcyon as The Temple of Artemis at Ephesos (B)
Coins: 13
Debt: 0
Strength: 4
Military tokens: {3}, {1}, {1}, {-1}, {-1}
Wonder stages built: 2
(1) 2 VPs, 4 Coins. Cost: 2 Stone - Built
(2) 3 VPs, 4 Coins. Cost: 2 Wood - Built
(3) 5 VPs, 4 Coins. Cost: Papyrus, Cloth, Glass

Tableau
Wonder Resource: Produce Papyrus.
Glassworks: Produce Glass.

Timber Yard: Produce Stone/Wood.
Clay Pool: Produce Brick.

Resource effects: Bilkis, Caravansery.

Macenas: All future leaders can be played for free.
Bilkis: Once per turn, may pay 1 coin to the bank to generate any one resource.
Pythagoras: Gear.

Caravansery: Produce Brick/Stone/Ore/Wood. Chain from: Marketplace. Chain to: Lighthouse.

Scriptorium: Tablet. Chain to: Courthouse & Library.
Apothecary: Compasses. Chain to: Stables & Dispensary.
Laboratory: Gear. Chain from: Workshop. Chain to: Siege Workshop & Observatory.
School: Tablet. Chain to: Academy & Study.
Dispensary: Compasses. Chain from: Apothecary. Chain to: Arena & Lodge.
Science effects: Gear (Pythagoras).

Walls: 2 Shields. Chain to: Fortifications.

Gambling Den: 6 Coins. Each neighbour gets 1 coin.
Militia: 2 Shields.

Builders Guild: 1 VP per wonder stage constructed by you and each of your neighbours.


Davio as The Great Wall of China (B)
Coins: 21
Tableau
Debt: 0
Strength: 1
Military tokens: {1}, {-1}, {-1}
Wonder stages built: A, B, C, D
(A) 8 Coins. Each neighbour gets 2 coins. Cost: Papyrus, Wood - Built
(B) Mask (Copy a science symbol). Cost: Ore, 2 Brick - Built
(C) Diplomacy, cause 2 debt. Cost: Papyrus, 2 Wood - Built
(D) Produce one resource not shown on your brown or gray cards/wonder. Cost: 2 Stone - Built
Reminder: Great Wall stages can be built in any order

Tableau
Wonder Resource: Produce Cloth.
Press: Produce Payrus.

Clay Pit: Produce Brick/Ore.
Quarry: Produce two Stone.

Resource effects: Wonder stage D, Forum, Architect Cabinet.

Imhotep: Wonder stages cost 1 resource less.
Hiram: 2 VPs per purple card.
Varro: 1 VP per yellow card.

Courthouse: 4 VPs. Chain from: Scriptorium.

Science effects: Mask (Wonder).

West Trading Post: Raw materials cost 1 to buy from the left. Chain to: Forum.
East Trading Post: Raw materials cost 1 to buy from the right. Chain to: Forum.
Forum: Produce Cloth/Glass/Paper. Chain from: West/East Trading Post. Chain to: Haven.
Vineyard: 1 Coin per brown card in yours+neighbours cities.
Arena: 3 Coins & 1 VP per wonder stage completed. Chain from: Dispensary.

Barracks: 1 Shield.

Architect Cabinet: 2 VPs. Your wonder stages no longer cost resources (but may still cost money).


Liopoil as The Statue of Zeus at Olympia (A)
Coins: 0
Debt: 0
Strength: 0
Military tokens: None
Wonder stages built: 2
(1) 3 VPs. Cost: 2 Wood - Built
(2) 1 free build per age. Cost: 2 Stone - Built
(3) 7 VPs. Cost: 2 Ore

Tableau
Wonder Resource: Produce Wood.
Ore Vein: Produce Ore.
Lumber Yard: Produce Wood.
Stone Pit: Produce Stone.
Brickyard: Produce two Brick.

Resource Effects: Black Market.

Tomyris: Reflect defeat tokens back to each city which beats you .
Hatshepsut: Once per turn per neighbour, earn one coin after buying a resource from a neighbour.
Nebuchadnezzar: 1 VP per blue card.

Marketplace: Manufactured Goods cost 1 to buy from both sides. Chain to: Caravansery.

Altar: 2 VPs. Chain to: Temple.
Baths: 3 VPs. Chain to: Aqueduct.
Aqueduct: 5 VPs. Chain from: Baths.
Statue: 4 VPs. Chain from: Theater. Chain to: Gardens.
Temple: 3 VPs. Chain from: Altar. Chain to: Pantheon.
Palace: 8 VPs.

Black Market: Produce one resource not shown on your brown or gray cards/wonder.


Hands pass left in age III, just as a reminder.

[eHalcyon]

I've picked.  I really want to know what's in Davio's hand.

[Tables]

eHalcyon - Lodge: Compasses. Chain from: Dispensary. Cost: 2 Brick, Cloth, Papyrus. (Chains from Dispensary)
Davio - Magistrates Guild: 1 VP per blue card in each of your neighbours cities. Cost: 3 Wood, Stone, Cloth. (Pays eHalc & Liopoil 1 coin each for Wood)
Liopoil - Haven: 1 Coin & 1 VP per brown card. Chain from: Forum. Cost: Cloth, Ore, Wood. (Earns 4 coins)


eHalcyon as The Temple of Artemis at Ephesos (B)
Coins: 14
Debt: 0
Strength: 4
Military tokens: {3}, {1}, {1}, {-1}, {-1}
Wonder stages built: 2
(1) 2 VPs, 4 Coins. Cost: 2 Stone - Built
(2) 3 VPs, 4 Coins. Cost: 2 Wood - Built
(3) 5 VPs, 4 Coins. Cost: Papyrus, Cloth, Glass

Tableau
Wonder Resource: Produce Papyrus.
Glassworks: Produce Glass.

Timber Yard: Produce Stone/Wood.
Clay Pool: Produce Brick.

Resource effects: Bilkis, Caravansery.

Macenas: All future leaders can be played for free.
Bilkis: Once per turn, may pay 1 coin to the bank to generate any one resource.
Pythagoras: Gear.

Caravansery: Produce Brick/Stone/Ore/Wood. Chain from: Marketplace. Chain to: Lighthouse.

Scriptorium: Tablet. Chain to: Courthouse & Library.
Apothecary: Compasses. Chain to: Stables & Dispensary.
Laboratory: Gear. Chain from: Workshop. Chain to: Siege Workshop & Observatory.
School: Tablet. Chain to: Academy & Study.
Dispensary: Compasses. Chain from: Apothecary. Chain to: Arena & Lodge.
Lodge: Compasses. Chain from: Dispensary.
Science effects: Gear (Pythagoras).

Walls: 2 Shields. Chain to: Fortifications.

Gambling Den: 6 Coins. Each neighbour gets 1 coin.
Militia: 2 Shields.

Builders Guild: 1 VP per wonder stage constructed by you and each of your neighbours.


Davio as The Great Wall of China (B)
Coins: 19
Tableau
Debt: 0
Strength: 1
Military tokens: {1}, {-1}, {-1}
Wonder stages built: A, B, C, D
(A) 8 Coins. Each neighbour gets 2 coins. Cost: Papyrus, Wood - Built
(B) Mask (Copy a science symbol). Cost: Ore, 2 Brick - Built
(C) Diplomacy, cause 2 debt. Cost: Papyrus, 2 Wood - Built
(D) Produce one resource not shown on your brown or gray cards/wonder. Cost: 2 Stone - Built
Reminder: Great Wall stages can be built in any order

Tableau
Wonder Resource: Produce Cloth.
Press: Produce Payrus.

Clay Pit: Produce Brick/Ore.
Quarry: Produce two Stone.

Resource effects: Wonder stage D, Forum, Architect Cabinet.

Imhotep: Wonder stages cost 1 resource less.
Hiram: 2 VPs per purple card.
Varro: 1 VP per yellow card.

Courthouse: 4 VPs. Chain from: Scriptorium.

Science effects: Mask (Wonder).

West Trading Post: Raw materials cost 1 to buy from the left. Chain to: Forum.
East Trading Post: Raw materials cost 1 to buy from the right. Chain to: Forum.
Forum: Produce Cloth/Glass/Paper. Chain from: West/East Trading Post. Chain to: Haven.
Vineyard: 1 Coin per brown card in yours+neighbours cities.
Arena: 3 Coins & 1 VP per wonder stage completed. Chain from: Dispensary.

Barracks: 1 Shield.

Architect Cabinet: 2 VPs. Your wonder stages no longer cost resources (but may still cost money).

Magistrates Guild: 1 VP per blue card in each of your neighbours cities.


Liopoil as The Statue of Zeus at Olympia (A)
Coins: 5
Debt: 0
Strength: 0
Military tokens: None
Wonder stages built: 2
(1) 3 VPs. Cost: 2 Wood - Built
(2) 1 free build per age. Cost: 2 Stone - Built
(3) 7 VPs. Cost: 2 Ore

Tableau
Wonder Resource: Produce Wood.
Ore Vein: Produce Ore.
Lumber Yard: Produce Wood.
Stone Pit: Produce Stone.
Brickyard: Produce two Brick.

Resource Effects: Black Market.

Tomyris: Reflect defeat tokens back to each city which beats you .
Hatshepsut: Once per turn per neighbour, earn one coin after buying a resource from a neighbour.
Nebuchadnezzar: 1 VP per blue card.

Marketplace: Manufactured Goods cost 1 to buy from both sides. Chain to: Caravansery.
Haven: 1 Coin & 1 VP per brown card. Chain from: Forum.

Altar: 2 VPs. Chain to: Temple.
Baths: 3 VPs. Chain to: Aqueduct.
Aqueduct: 5 VPs. Chain from: Baths.
Statue: 4 VPs. Chain from: Theater. Chain to: Gardens.
Temple: 3 VPs. Chain from: Altar. Chain to: Pantheon.
Palace: 8 VPs.

Black Market: Produce one resource not shown on your brown or gray cards/wonder.

[eHalcyon]

Choice made.

[liopoil]

I chose. Also, it was very painful to pass on all those blues last hand... I really needed coins.

[Tables]

eHalcyon - Capitol: 8 VPs. Cost: 2 Coins, 2 Brick, 2 Stone, Glass, Papyrus. (Pays Bilkis 1 coin)
Davio - Lighthouse: 1 Coin & 1 VP per yellow card (including this). Chain from: Caravansery. Cost: Glass, Stone. (Earns 6 coins)
Liopoil - Town Hall: 6 VPs. Cost: Glass, Ore, 2 Stone. (Pays eHalc 2 coins for stone, earns 1 coin from Hatshepsut)

eHalcyon as The Temple of Artemis at Ephesos (B)
Coins: 13
Debt: 0
Strength: 4
Military tokens: {3}, {1}, {1}, {-1}, {-1}
Wonder stages built: 2
(1) 2 VPs, 4 Coins. Cost: 2 Stone - Built
(2) 3 VPs, 4 Coins. Cost: 2 Wood - Built
(3) 5 VPs, 4 Coins. Cost: Papyrus, Cloth, Glass

Tableau
Wonder Resource: Produce Papyrus.
Glassworks: Produce Glass.

Timber Yard: Produce Stone/Wood.
Clay Pool: Produce Brick.

Resource effects: Bilkis, Caravansery.

Macenas: All future leaders can be played for free.
Bilkis: Once per turn, may pay 1 coin to the bank to generate any one resource.
Pythagoras: Gear.

Caravansery: Produce Brick/Stone/Ore/Wood. Chain from: Marketplace. Chain to: Lighthouse.

Scriptorium: Tablet. Chain to: Courthouse & Library.
Apothecary: Compasses. Chain to: Stables & Dispensary.
Laboratory: Gear. Chain from: Workshop. Chain to: Siege Workshop & Observatory.
School: Tablet. Chain to: Academy & Study.
Dispensary: Compasses. Chain from: Apothecary. Chain to: Arena & Lodge.
Lodge: Compasses. Chain from: Dispensary.
Science effects: Gear (Pythagoras).

Walls: 2 Shields. Chain to: Fortifications.

Gambling Den: 6 Coins. Each neighbour gets 1 coin.
Militia: 2 Shields.
Capitol: 8 VPs.

Builders Guild: 1 VP per wonder stage constructed by you and each of your neighbours.


Davio as The Great Wall of China (B)
Coins: 25
Tableau
Debt: 0
Strength: 1
Military tokens: {1}, {-1}, {-1}
Wonder stages built: A, B, C, D
(A) 8 Coins. Each neighbour gets 2 coins. Cost: Papyrus, Wood - Built
(B) Mask (Copy a science symbol). Cost: Ore, 2 Brick - Built
(C) Diplomacy, cause 2 debt. Cost: Papyrus, 2 Wood - Built
(D) Produce one resource not shown on your brown or gray cards/wonder. Cost: 2 Stone - Built
Reminder: Great Wall stages can be built in any order

Tableau
Wonder Resource: Produce Cloth.
Press: Produce Payrus.

Clay Pit: Produce Brick/Ore.
Quarry: Produce two Stone.

Resource effects: Wonder stage D, Forum, Architect Cabinet.

Imhotep: Wonder stages cost 1 resource less.
Hiram: 2 VPs per purple card.
Varro: 1 VP per yellow card.

Courthouse: 4 VPs. Chain from: Scriptorium.

Science effects: Mask (Wonder).

West Trading Post: Raw materials cost 1 to buy from the left. Chain to: Forum.
East Trading Post: Raw materials cost 1 to buy from the right. Chain to: Forum.
Forum: Produce Cloth/Glass/Paper. Chain from: West/East Trading Post. Chain to: Haven.
Vineyard: 1 Coin per brown card in yours+neighbours cities.
Arena: 3 Coins & 1 VP per wonder stage completed. Chain from: Dispensary.
Lighthouse: 1 Coin & 1 VP per yellow card (including this). Chain from: Caravansery.

Barracks: 1 Shield.

Architect Cabinet: 2 VPs. Your wonder stages no longer cost resources (but may still cost money).

Magistrates Guild: 1 VP per blue card in each of your neighbours cities.


Liopoil as The Statue of Zeus at Olympia (A)
Coins: 4
Debt: 0
Strength: 0
Military tokens: None
Wonder stages built: 2
(1) 3 VPs. Cost: 2 Wood - Built
(2) 1 free build per age. Cost: 2 Stone - Built
(3) 7 VPs. Cost: 2 Ore

Tableau
Wonder Resource: Produce Wood.
Ore Vein: Produce Ore.
Lumber Yard: Produce Wood.
Stone Pit: Produce Stone.
Brickyard: Produce two Brick.

Resource Effects: Black Market.

Tomyris: Reflect defeat tokens back to each city which beats you .
Hatshepsut: Once per turn per neighbour, earn one coin after buying a resource from a neighbour.
Nebuchadnezzar: 1 VP per blue card.

Marketplace: Manufactured Goods cost 1 to buy from both sides. Chain to: Caravansery.
Haven: 1 Coin & 1 VP per brown card. Chain from: Forum.

Altar: 2 VPs. Chain to: Temple.
Baths: 3 VPs. Chain to: Aqueduct.
Aqueduct: 5 VPs. Chain from: Baths.
Statue: 4 VPs. Chain from: Theater. Chain to: Gardens.
Temple: 3 VPs. Chain from: Altar. Chain to: Pantheon.
Palace: 8 VPs.
Town Hall: 6 VPs.

Black Market: Produce one resource not shown on your brown or gray cards/wonder.

I think everyone got something they're quite happy with that round.

[liopoil]

done.

[Tables]

Oh... so, Lio's just (kind of accidentally) noticed that I never applied the debt effects of Davio's wonder stage C.

eHalc would have obviously paid 2 coins, that one is easy. I think that considering he sent himself down to 0 coins anyway, the easiest way to resolve Lio is to give him two debt. While we can argue he should have spent the two coins going by the 'official' debt for PBF houserule, then things get awkward. So I think that should probably be done now. If anyone objects let me know.

[liopoil]

Well, what most likely would have happened is that I would have discarded the brickyard instead of building it, but that would have effected many future actions a lot. In fact, I probably would actually be better off. But giving me two debt is probably the best solution. Rewinding doesn't really work because age 3 hands have already been dealt.

[eHalcyon]

I always forget that the Diplomacy wonder of China also has debt on it.  If I had remembered, I would have called it out.  Sorry!

I agree that giving lio debt is probably the best solution.  I think having the Brickyard in play hurts me the most (would have loved it if I was the only one who could build Siege Workshop) but I don't mind.

I chose. Also, it was very painful to pass on all those blues last hand... I really needed coins.

I thought it was going to be a harder choice for you because of your wonder.  I didn't really expect you to use your free build on turn 1.  It was a good choice though, I think.

[liopoil]

I'm getting the sense that coins are much more important with cities/leaders. I really undervalued them this game...

[eHalcyon]

I'm getting the sense that coins are much more important with cities/leaders. I really undervalued them this game...

You've had a pretty tame game too -- no debt cards until this last age.  The very first time I played with Cities IRL, we had EVERY debt card as well as Petra and Catan (debt wonders).  Some of my friends really hate Cities now because of it, but the thing to keep in mind is that they are actually just nerfed blue cards. 

For example, Brotherhood is 4VP, cause 3 debt.  The most that this is worth is 7VP, if every opponent chose to take debt instead of pay for it.  If every opponent pays for it, it's only worth net 5VP to you.  But the choice makes it feel more painful than it is, especially to players who are low on coin.  It's kind of like Dominion's Torturer -- it would be significantly stronger if it always gave the Curse instead of giving the discard as an option, but the choice makes it feel much more oppressive.