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Author Topic: Resistance VII: Avalon - Resistance Wins!  (Read 27909 times)

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Tables

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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2013, 08:42:45 pm »

The issue with all the advantages you're pointing out is they're just as likely to be disadvantages when the roles flip around. Just read this:

Say there is a rebel that comes online. He sees that someone proposed a mission. No one else has commented on it. He has to make a decision, accept or reject and say it publicly. And this is a pretty binding decision if you ask me because a reversal is going to bring a huge amount of scrutiny. Afterward others comment (a mixture of opinions) and maybe knowing this he would have changed his mind, but now he can't, or if he does again lots of scrutiny.

You can see the obvious change and hopefully you can see that the logic works basically exactly the same. Whoever's committing first has less information. But why should a rebel then want to commit early. Why not comment on the team, if he feels the need, then decide how to vote later. Maybe it's M2.4, he's not on the proposal, but he has an awkward choice of, vote yes to a mission that he knows has a decent chance of failing, or vote no hoping that the next mission is better. In that situation he won't want to go first, and likely a lot of people won't.

And actually now I think about it, another major advantage is that it gives spies more room to hide co-ordination messages, if they're being forced to justify votes BEFORE missions. One potential big breakthrough resistance can get is putting multiple spies on mission, if both fail, that's a lot of information at once, and the less room spies have to try and hide a co-ordination message, the better. This is why e.g. you'll notice everyone insisting on silence after a mission goes ahead. When you're explaining your votes before making it, then it's much easier to leave a subtle hint, and further, it's basically impossible to pick out from other resistance member posts, whose posts will also look very similar.

It wasn't discussed much last game, because there wasn't much need to discuss it. It's pretty well established in the Resistance meta that it's a bad thing. The advantages to the spies are huge whenever they're voting late, and it's pretty common that a few of them will be every now and again. The advantages to the resistance, I'm still not seeing. I did read your first post, and I really don't see the advantage, because everything I think you're saying is an advantage is just as big of a disadvantage when the roles swap around.

Regarding the last point: There's lots of different things you can do with proposals. Not putting yourself on mission is always an interesting one. That really forces people to think about if they want to vote for you. Another one is proposing a mission when you have multiple spy reads on it together. That can lead to some potentially interesting votes to look back at. It's a minor point, but the more you force people to commit pre-mission, the less able those kinds of game-opening plays work.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Jimmmmm

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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2013, 08:56:43 pm »

Wow, waking up to a maze of text.

I agree that in general revealing how you're voting is bad for Resistance. On the other hand, it could be imperative that the vote goes a particular way, so I think arguing one way or another is sometimes necessary. But just saying, "I'm accepting/rejecting this mission" is probably very unhelpful.
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yuma

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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2013, 10:15:52 pm »

Wow, waking up to a maze of text.

I agree that in general revealing how you're voting is bad for Resistance. On the other hand, it could be imperative that the vote goes a particular way, so I think arguing one way or another is sometimes necessary. But just saying, "I'm accepting/rejecting this mission" is probably very unhelpful.

Alright, I will concede to those that have more experience on this. I don't have any experience to back my points up (and maybe any experience with such an experiment would be thoroughly negative...). But I do ultimately agree with Jimmm, that just saying accept/reject has very little utility.
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2013, 11:05:40 pm »

I tend to agree that keeping votes secret makes more sense, for what it's worth. That's why I'm not going to tell you I voted to reject this mission.












Oh shoot!
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Tables

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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2013, 11:51:28 pm »

Wow, waking up to a maze of text.

I agree that in general revealing how you're voting is bad for Resistance. On the other hand, it could be imperative that the vote goes a particular way, so I think arguing one way or another is sometimes necessary. But just saying, "I'm accepting/rejecting this mission" is probably very unhelpful.

Alright, I will concede to those that have more experience on this. I don't have any experience to back my points up (and maybe any experience with such an experiment would be thoroughly negative...). But I do ultimately agree with Jimmm, that just saying accept/reject has very little utility.

Huh. I'm a little curious that you argued the point against me+Lio so adamantly, but as soon as Jimm says little more than 'it's generally unhelpful' you back down. Not making an accusation (yet...), just thought it was strange. I'm actually reading slightly pro-resistance on you currently because, even if your idea wasn't good, you brought up the idea and argued it, putting yourself in the spotlight. But then it's still early days, reads will change massively over the course of M1 and probably M2 as well.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

yuma

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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2013, 12:45:39 am »

Wow, waking up to a maze of text.

I agree that in general revealing how you're voting is bad for Resistance. On the other hand, it could be imperative that the vote goes a particular way, so I think arguing one way or another is sometimes necessary. But just saying, "I'm accepting/rejecting this mission" is probably very unhelpful.

Alright, I will concede to those that have more experience on this. I don't have any experience to back my points up (and maybe any experience with such an experiment would be thoroughly negative...). But I do ultimately agree with Jimmm, that just saying accept/reject has very little utility.

Huh. I'm a little curious that you argued the point against me+Lio so adamantly, but as soon as Jimm says little more than 'it's generally unhelpful' you back down. Not making an accusation (yet...), just thought it was strange. I'm actually reading slightly pro-resistance on you currently because, even if your idea wasn't good, you brought up the idea and argued it, putting yourself in the spotlight. But then it's still early days, reads will change massively over the course of M1 and probably M2 as well.

It had less to do with Jimmm's post, but more that it was the one at the bottom and so was the one that I quoted... That and I agreed with Jimmm's point about just saying accept/reject not being helpful.
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chairs

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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2013, 10:27:53 am »

Sorry to hold things up, guys.  Didn't realize I got to vote on my own proposals!

 :-[

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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2013, 10:38:59 am »

Mission 1.1

Leader: chairs
Proposed: Jimmmmm, Tables

Accept: Jimmmmm, Chairs
Reject: Tables, WalrusMcFishSr, Yuma, Mail-mi, Liopoil.

Mission rejected.

Walrus has 24 hours to propose a new team.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 04:46:06 pm by Twistedarcher »
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Tables

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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #83 on: September 13, 2013, 10:49:47 am »

Nothing too surprising. Chair's yes vote is perhaps slightly odd, but considering he proposed the mission it's pretty understandable.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

chairs

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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #84 on: September 13, 2013, 11:03:53 am »

Is there a concern that it wouldn't go through? I just assumed that even if one of them werea spy, they wouldn't burn themselves on a two man mission.

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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #85 on: September 13, 2013, 11:57:37 am »

Oh boy! My turn to be Proposer Guy.

I think I'm going to go ahead and Propose 1.2: WalrusMcFishSr and Tables.

Me because, well you know, Arthur's my bro! It would seem, uh, un-knightly not to volunteer for the mission myself.

Tables because he *appears* to be dispensing helpful advice, and he's got "the hammer" so it might come down to him anyway. Seems as good a choice as any for now.
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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #86 on: September 13, 2013, 12:16:46 pm »

Yes, I "appear" to be dispensing helpful advice  ;D.

But yeah, getting info on the hammer is always useful, from voting patterns and the like.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2013, 04:41:52 pm »

Mission 1, Proposal 2 has been proposed. Please send me your votes by 12:00 pm Saturday.
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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #88 on: September 14, 2013, 01:06:16 pm »

Mission 1.2

Leader: walrusmcfishsr
Proposed: walrus, Tables

Accept: Jimmmmm, Walrus, mail-mi
Reject: Tables, Chairs, Yuma, Liopoil.

Mission rejected.

Liopoil has 24 hours to propose a new team.
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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2013, 01:09:46 pm »

Jimmmm+mail-mi: why???
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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2013, 01:12:41 pm »

Yeah I was sort of wondering the same thing...this vote looks a little weird to me

But what do I know honestly
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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #91 on: September 14, 2013, 01:22:06 pm »

Jimmmm+mail-mi: why???
One of the first missions has to get through, right? I thought, why not this one? I don't have a problem with it.
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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #92 on: September 14, 2013, 02:40:44 pm »

They've both seemed pretty Towny to me so far.
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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2013, 02:50:58 pm »

Tables did you not want to go on the mission with me? ;(

Desiring to generally gather more information first perhaps? Or stalling until you'd get the hammer?
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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2013, 03:32:59 pm »

tables rejected because he has the hammer, and wants to be able to decide who else is most likely to be town.

mail-mi and jimmm: but by rejecting you have a chance of getting on the mission
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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2013, 05:21:06 pm »

mail-mi and jimmm: but by rejecting you have a chance of getting on the mission

Someone has to be willing to approve missions they're not on, or it devolves into waiting for the fifth leader to decide what we're doing. I mean, I'm not going to auto-accept all Mission 1 proposals, but I don't think auto-rejecting any proposal you're not on at this stage is the way to go.
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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #96 on: September 14, 2013, 05:48:56 pm »

well, you should be more and more willing to accept proposals you aren't on the later in the proposals it is. so 3 and 4 I can see it, 1 and 2, less so.
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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #97 on: September 14, 2013, 05:59:35 pm »

well, you should be more and more willing to accept proposals you aren't on the later in the proposals it is. so 3 and 4 I can see it, 1 and 2, less so.

Actually, the earlier we accept this proposal, the closer I will be to proposal 5 for Mission 2, so I'd rather this mission go through earlier.
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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #98 on: September 14, 2013, 06:04:16 pm »

I think I actually get a resistance read on mail-mi for his accept. That's because as a spy the last two games his mantra was "I reject all proposals I'm not on". pretty null on everyone else. might as well propose my mission now I guess, don't think much more is going to happen

Propose Mission 1.3: Liopoil, mail-mi
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Re: Resistance: Avalon II
« Reply #99 on: September 14, 2013, 06:17:04 pm »

might as well propose my mission now I guess, don't think much more is going to happen

Yep, let's get this game moving.
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