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Author Topic: Request: Soothsayer  (Read 11926 times)

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Beyond Awesome

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Request: Soothsayer
« on: September 03, 2013, 02:15:15 am »
+2

Seriously, I just don't understand this attack. Some games, it is just very weak and helps your opponent more than it helps you. Other games, it is worth buying over Witch. Now, I have won a fair share of Soothsayer games, but when it comes to attacks, I feel this is one of them that I understand the least.
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Davio

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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2013, 04:01:29 am »
0

It's probably best when there is no trashing, giving your opponent that extra card makes it that much easier to line up the Curse and trasher.

Also when there is no trashing, having a decent economy becomes more important and the Golds from SS become quite helpful.

Now I don't exactly know what the cutoff point of "decent trashing" here is, and obviously it depends on what you could possibly transition into, but you get the idea.

Soothsayer is a card for slogs, where giving an extra card to your opponent hurts less, and giving yourself an extra Gold gives more benefit.

It's also important to note that Soothsayer gives no immediate benefit to you, like Witch's +2 Cards or Mountebank's +$2; the Gold is a delayed benefit. It only gives the other player the immediate benefit of the extra card. So it's comparable to Sea Hag for the benefit it gives you, but a bit worse in the Cursing department (no topdecking). This also points to SS being more of a sloggy card.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 05:12:50 am by Davio »
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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2013, 08:07:15 am »
+1

Card sifters like a warehouse are obviously good in soothsayer games. Although soothsayer hurts your spending it does give you gold so it's clearly good in treasure based decks or other decks where gold is a good card. It is bad against engines that can use the extra card draw and clean up rapidly. After the curses have gone it continues to be useful in gaining gold, probably favoring a longer game. You probably don't want to overload on terminals due to the large hand sizes and the longevity of the soothsayers. In multiplayer games the soothsayers can push a game along quickly, as with council rooms, so decks will cycle quickly with large hands until the curses run out. Making the most of those large hands is important before the game grinds to halt with five card hands.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2013, 08:29:21 am »
+5

While it is true that the Gold gain is not an immediate bonus like "+2 Cards" or "+$2", if you are building the sort of deck where you would want to be buying Gold anyhow, then it sort of is an immediate bonus.  I mean, if I were going to use Mountebank's +$2 towards a Gold purchase anyhow, well Soothsayer jumped straight to the chase and has left me to my spend my buy and $4 on something else.  This is especially nice if I want to use the Gold in TfB, say with Remodel, Apprentice, or Bishop.

But yeah, slogs is the other big case.
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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2013, 09:19:32 am »
0

Also, it's a card that you have to get as soon as possible or ignore entirely. If you can get it before your first reshuffle, it's sick.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2013, 10:08:37 am »
0

Also, it's a card that you have to get as soon as possible or ignore entirely. If you can get it before your first reshuffle, it's sick.

This is bad advice, Soothsayer is a good card to add to engines once you've established some draw consistency, especially if certain TfB cards are on the board (Salvager, Bishop, Remodel etc.). Anytime you can make good use of Golds. Soothsayer is an interesting curser in that the attack aspect (curse + opponent draw) might actually be the weakest part of the card (will depend on board).
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Davio

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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2013, 10:35:42 am »
0

I think it compares more closely to Marauder than our regular Cursers which provide some kind of immediate benefit to us or an immediate hindrance to our opponent (Sea Hag).

Marauder has weak junking (Ruins vs Curses) and a delayed benefit as well (Spoils).
The long term effect of Soothsayer in both the junking and Gold-gaining is probably a bit better, hence it's a $5 and not a $4.

Of course it's not a pure slog card, but I think it does respectably well in those.
Any Curser can be good in engines, but you have to answer this question: Is it better to skip the Curser initially and (try to) build the engine first or is the Curser's short term impact big enough that you want it asap? For most Cursers, the answer is more often the latter regardless of the rest of the kingdom, but with Soothsayer it might depend a bit more on the other parts.
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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 10:38:07 am »
0

Also, it's a card that you have to get as soon as possible or ignore entirely. If you can get it before your first reshuffle, it's sick.

This is bad advice, Soothsayer is a good card to add to engines once you've established some draw consistency, especially if certain TfB cards are on the board (Salvager, Bishop, Remodel etc.). Anytime you can make good use of Golds.
No, it's still good advice. Building an engine is sometimes so important that getting a Soothsayer isn't possible until you've established some draw consistency. And when you have, you should either go for Soothsayer as soon as possible or choose to ignore it entirely. If you don't, you'll end up helping your opponent more than hurting him and hurting yourself more than helping yourself.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 10:45:26 am »
+6

Also, it's a card that you have to get as soon as possible or ignore entirely. If you can get it before your first reshuffle, it's sick.

This is bad advice, Soothsayer is a good card to add to engines once you've established some draw consistency, especially if certain TfB cards are on the board (Salvager, Bishop, Remodel etc.). Anytime you can make good use of Golds.
No, it's still good advice. Building an engine is sometimes so important that getting a Soothsayer isn't possible until you've established some draw consistency. And when you have, you should either go for Soothsayer as soon as possible or choose to ignore it entirely. If you don't, you'll end up helping your opponent more than hurting him and hurting yourself more than helping yourself.

This is just word games, it's silly and it makes your original statement a tautology equivalent to "buy Soothsayer whenever it's the right card to buy".

The natural interpretation of "get as soon as possible or ignore entirely" does not imply anything about engine building first. It suggests that Soothsayer is a good card in the early game and not worth adding later. That isn't true and it's bad advice.

It would be great advice for cards like Chapel and Trading Post.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 10:52:44 am by Mic Qsenoch »
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Awaclus

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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2013, 12:10:35 pm »
0

The natural interpretation of "get as soon as possible or ignore entirely" does not imply anything about engine building first. It suggests that Soothsayer is a good card in the early game and not worth adding later. That isn't true and it's bad advice.

It would be great advice for cards like Chapel and Trading Post.
I believe it is true that Soothsayer is a good card in the early game and not worth adding later. Engine decks might take a while before they move out of the early game. In the late game, the cursing doesn't hurt a lot and the draw helps a lot, and the sooner you start gaining Golds, the more you get to use them.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 12:12:07 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 01:27:16 pm »
0

Actually, the simulators would be really useful for this...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Davio

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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2013, 03:39:42 pm »
0

I don't think Soothsayer is very useful in engines, let me rephrase that, the Cursing part isn't very useful in engines. This is because in most engine games, your opponent is building an engine as well and can deal with incoming Curses pretty well, especially with increased hand sizes.

The Gold gaining could come in handy for a late game push, but I don't know, seems unlikely to be a real thing.

This doesn't mean you should never use Soothsayer in engine games, depends on the engine of course, but I don't consider Marauder an engine card. Soothsayer has the added problem of being at the quite competitive price point of $5.
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Robz888

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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2013, 03:58:55 pm »
+2

So, Soothsayer.

The unconditional Gold gain is just really nice, a lot of the time. You don't have to reveal a Province, or buy a Victory card, or jump through any of the other hoops that Gold-gainers impose on you.

Giving your opponent an extra card is really good for them, but okay, you also give them a Curse. If they can deal with Curses really easily--Hermit springs to mind--this is not a good tradeoff, and you are probably better off without Soothsayer.

The big question, I think, is Soothsayer vs. its competitors, Mountebank and Witch. I would you think you want Mountebank/Witch first, and then a Soothsayer on your next $5 (if this is a ripe set for Cursing). The reason is, you'll deal some of your Curses with your primary Junker, and then use the Soothsayer primary for the Gold gaining and some additional Cursing--you won't give them the extra card as much. That's what feels right to me, at least.

A word of caution: You might not want to play Soothsayer in the end-game! If there are Curses left, but like 1 VP is not going to make a difference, and you aren't going to see that Gold, and you're racing for the last Province, you are severely hurting yourself if you play it.
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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2013, 06:09:29 pm »
+13

Yesterday I pulled of an edgecase: my Soothsayer deactivated my opponent's Menagerie.
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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2013, 06:15:13 pm »
+3

Yesterday I pulled of an edgecase: my Soothsayer deactivated my opponent's Menagerie.

Nice! But I think I hold the ultimate edge case now: I didn't play my Lighthouses (a couple times, actually), because I knew my opponent was about to play like 4 Cultists. I wanted those Ruins... for my Vineyards :)
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Re: Request: Soothsayer
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2013, 07:15:08 pm »
0

Yesterday I pulled of an edgecase: my Soothsayer deactivated my opponent's Menagerie.

This game also serves as an example of building the engine first, then adding soothsayer.  I was the unfortunate recipient of this experience, and at that point the game was already well in hand.  Junk Dealer cleared out SCSN's deck,  with menagerie working nicely for draw, and by that point SCSN had a couple Grand Markets and was well ahead.  In fact, Soothsayer might have never been used if not for Squire, which was trashed to gain the Soothsayer rather than buying it (when you could be buying Grand Markets).

It was an obliteration, but if you want to see the log the edge case occured when SCSN played Soothsayer T11: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130902/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1378149216048.txt
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