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Author Topic: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands  (Read 106398 times)

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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #225 on: September 10, 2013, 12:48:56 pm »
+2

Another edit: Ring Leader should have +2 Cards when you play it. I'm fixing that now.

Ring Leader probably doesn't need a line. See Noble Brigand.

Agreed. No line. It has two on play effects, one of which is also an on buy effect.

I seem to remember that Noble Brigand doesn't have a line because the line wouldn't fit on the card. If it wins and I mock up the card, I may omit the line. For now it stays.

Yes, sure. But only because with a line, Noble Brigand would look like this:

Noble Brigand
+1$
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Silver or Gold that you choose and discards the rest. If he didn't reveal a treasure, he gains a Copper. You gain the trashed cards.
----------
When you buy this, each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Silver or Gold that you choose and discards the rest. If he didn't reveal a treasure, he gains a Copper. You gain the trashed cards.


Ring Leader has to be either:

Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.
When you play or buy this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

or:

Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.
Each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.
------------
When you buy this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.


Also: Dark Ages :D
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #226 on: September 10, 2013, 01:00:59 pm »
0

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
A rather interesting Lab variant that stacks quite nicely I guess. The on-buy/on-gain is interesting, since it provides filtering when you buy Chapterhouse and is a mild attack when you just gain it. The bottom part is probably not really necessary, but the top part I like.

So, thinking more about Chapterhouse, how do you think building a Chapterhouse deck compares to building a Minion deck?

My guess is that it will be comparable, but usually stronger. And it seems like the below the line ability being sometimes an attack makes it really strong.

Would it ruin the card if it just gave the sifting externality on gain which would always be a positive for your opponents?
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #227 on: September 10, 2013, 01:26:02 pm »
0

It gives you a lot more cards, but allows for less filtering, and because of that I prefer minion. This seems even less hinterlandy than that.
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Wrclass

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #228 on: September 10, 2013, 03:51:18 pm »
0


A few I'm interested in.


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Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

I think this is too strong. Not to mention it's not at all Hinterlandsy


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Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.

I like this! The "put anywhere in your deck" may be too slow and annoying. The on-buy is really interesting although I can't see how it fits in with the top.

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Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

Is the on-gain a buff or a nerf?


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Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.

Doesn't this allow to piledrive Trade Agreements with just one in play? And it draws 3 cards, with increases the chances of you having a $5 hand. I think it needs to fixed.

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Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.

On buy is interesting. Not sure what to say about the on-play.

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Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.

This is too weak. You get 2 Buys in exchange for $1 and a junk card in your deck. The only time I would buy it is to empty the 3rd pile.



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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D I really like this card! The player interaction is so interesting and unique, with a terminal gold thingy for you and a Haggler thingy for your opponents. It may be better at $4 price point though.



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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

I love this one too! The on-gain attack is compensated by the benefit for your opponents. $5 gaining is really strong, but it doesn't stack too well. Seems balanced.



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Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.

I've seen this card before, and I think I know who submitted it. (But I won't say it here) Like Young Witch, this card's strength is tied to that of the Reinforcement card. If it's something like Counting House, Commander is almost strictly worse than Duchy. But if the Reinforcement is Wharf, Commander is REALLY STRONG!



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Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.

I like the on-gain, but the top doesn't feel related. Needs a different play effect.
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #229 on: September 10, 2013, 04:32:46 pm »
+1

Quote
Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D I really like this card! The player interaction is so interesting and unique, with a terminal gold thingy for you and a Haggler thingy for your opponents. It may be better at $4 price point though.


While others have mentioned that this is too weak, I think it's worth pointing out that it's so weak that changing its cost won't fix the problem. This doesn't work at any price.

The issue is that your opponents essentially get a free turn. Unless you are building a Crossroads-Secret Chamber deck or something and then don't play the card when you buy green. You buy a Gold? I'll take a Lab for free please. Province? Duchy. Or Bank. Played two of these and bought Gold? I'll take TWO Labs! This isn't a Haggler externality. It's practically giving your opponent a Possession!

I'll let you buy this so I can win.

(I seem to remember a secret history about opponents gaining cards costing less -- but maybe that was about reactions to attacks? I don't remember.)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #230 on: September 10, 2013, 04:47:20 pm »
+1

Quote
River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

"The only water in the forest is the river."  I like the on gain effect here.  I think people have been missing that this is on gain. For fun, imagine we're in a Colony game with Border Village, River, and Ironworks.  I get a hand of Border Village, Ironworks, Ironworks, Copper, Copper.  Play BV, draw Copper.  Play Ironworks, gain River, draw Silver.  Play Ironworks, gain BV, gain River.  Now, I have $5 in hand and Platinum costs $5.  Rock on, River Song!

I didn't miss it, but I still think that the card's purpose is somewhat conflicted, in that you have to green in order to make use of cost reduction for non-green cards.  If I am in greening mode, I am less likely to be interested in those components.  When I most want the cost reduction, I probably don't want to be greening.  That said, I could see this card being a Hoard-ish card, in that it promotes earlier greening by allowing you to keep building your deck with good stuff to compensate for the dead cards.

A minor quibble is that River's on gain is nothing at all in games without gainers or +Buy.  But that's not actually a huge deal.

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.

Pretty nice.  I would like it better if the on gain effect were to use its effect fully -- i.e., "Put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile.  Reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curses.  Shuffle."

If it were worded that way, you discard your deck, take out the dead cards, discard them back into the discard pile with everything else, and then shuffle it all again.  What you want is to set aside the Victory and Curse cards, shuffle, then discard the set aside cards.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #231 on: September 10, 2013, 06:28:46 pm »
0

So I'll talk about half of these cards now and half later. I'll start with the second half because I suspect they tend to get overlooked by people who started at the top and are now running out of patience towards the end. Plus, I have a point about Sultan specifically that I want to make. I'll do the first half later.

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Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.
The top half is probably too strong for $4 (I think someone mentioned that Donald X. playtested a version at $4 and found it too strong?) and almost (e.g. tunnel) strictly weaker than Lab at $5. But still maybe an ok $5 if Lab didn't exist.

So, one concern to think about with on-gains is: what if I open with it? Nomad Camp and Inn both mess with the opening split in different ways. IGG and Noble Brigand mess with your opponents. Farmlands is too expensive. I'm probably missing some others, but the trend is clear: if they mess with your opening split, they have fairly weak on-play effects (sure I can maybe get a 4/5 split with Nomad camp, but only if I commit to using an opening $4 on Woodcutter, and even then it's not likely; Inn is similar). Opening Sultan? I'm discarding at least one estate (and frankly, I'm likely discarding all of them to get an earlier reshuffle) and thus likely getting at least a $4.5/$4 opening, which is probably too strong?
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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
So, similar to Cache (instead of 2 coppers and a Gold, you get a copper, a gold, and a Victory card), but you have to spend an extra buy and can stack oddly. I'll have to think about it.

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Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.
Instead of IGG emptying IGG and Curse piles, this empties the Reinforcement and Commander piles simultaneously. On the other hand, a VP card doesn't help buy more Commanders, so rushing will be difficult, unless the Reinforcement card is something like Vault. I'd probably like this more if it were a half-Harem (1VP-$1) instead, but it might be too strong. Obviously much weaker if there is anyway of gaining the Reinforcement cards without buying them (e.g. a Remodel).

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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.
So it becomes an action card of your choice? I don't know, it seems too much like Band of Misfits, but limited by the number of other actions in your deck. Now that I think about it, that makes it probably way worse than Band of Misfits; a huge part of Band of Misfits is the flexibility (I can use this as a Sea Hag/Moneylender now, but later it becomes a valuable engine component). Here, you still need to have that number of the engine components and any opening-game cards are dead). I don't think being able to grab bigger actions makes up for that? How many big actions will you be getting with enough money to spam $5 cost cards left over?

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Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.
So, effectively a cellar/lab when your opponent gains a Victory card, and a dead card otherwise. Could be interesting, I suppose, but I wouldn't buy it early, and by the time I want it, I'll probably only see it once or twice? Although cellaring during the green stage would be nice. I'll have to think about this card some more.

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Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.
So, there are a lot of Workshop variants, and people tend to group them all together and say "another workshop variant", but I want to try to look at each of them separately, because they deserve to be considered individually on their merits.

As I said with Sultan, this can mess with the opening split similar to Nomad Camp or Inn. I don't mind it as much here, because a) everyone can buy it (it's a $4 not a $5, which is a big difference for an opener), and b) once you've done that, it's a Workshop, not an almost $5 in its own right. Still, an interesting effect.

Obviously, likes Silk Roads/Garden rushes a lot. Can also be a terminal Scout (gaining itself), if you ever want a terminal Scout. Maybe an end-game engine as a (very) poor man's Wandering Minstrel effect?
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Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.
Probably better than Expand, and at $4. This card seems far too strong. Open this, hit an estate next shuffle, gain a Silver, another Bargain (trashing a copper), and a $5. That's way too strong.

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Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.
So, can be a cantrip (if you hit a decent card or a Copper) or a peddler (for cards you don't want anyway). Not sure how useful putting cards back on the bottom of your deck will turn out to be in practice, but it's a novel effect.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

EDIT: Changed from "when you gain a card" to "when you buy a card".
Without the edit, this was ludicrous. With the edit, it's a much weaker Haggler.

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Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.
Similar to Midnight Gathering above. Cheaper than it or Band of Misfits, but with an on-gain penalty. I like this somewhat better (just because of that difference) but I'll want to see some playtesting to see if it works

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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.
Another workshop variant. You cover up a card, then later use the Tinker's Wagon to uncover that pile and then normally buy the card. Alternatively, you can use the Tinker's Wagon to gain itself, covering a card that you don't want but your opponent might early, sort of like an embargo. So that's the synergy between the effects.

I'm not sure how I feel about the mechanic itself; can you cover an empty pile, thus making it unempty? What if you (using highway/bridge) move the last Province to another pile, thus ending the game early?

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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.
So, you need to stack it to do something with it. Which is tough to do with a $6, even one that acts as a Silver. I have a similar rules concern (do cards on the mat count as not being in the suppy at the same time?

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Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.
So a Grandee is sort of like a foreign governor, which I assume is the motivation behind the name (which I like). The rest of the card doesn't really seem to  "click". It can't gain itself without Highway, bridge, etc. None of the effects really synergize together, and a $5 needs to be powerful.

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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
I like the on-play. It's a weaker Remake, which is fine. The obvious synergy with the on-gain is to make it like Rats, but gaining another $3 along with the second Construct.  You can even make it into a partially powered up City that trashes and gains two Constructs. I like this card.

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Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.
This is swingy in most decks. Seems like it would be nice with Alt-VP. Maybe too nice; buy this, reveal Gardens in hand, gain a Gardens. So a slightly better workshop in that respect, but riskier in non-Rushes. On the other hand, if you can trash your Estates, gain a Duchy at some point, and this becomes a workshop that goes up to $5. I'm not sure if I like that swinginess.

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Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
So, a sifting copper with an on-buy sift or an on-gain urchin for your opponents. I guess that's thematic, although I'm not sure about the name. Obviously more powerful with the ability to gain $5 cards, at which point it becomes an on-gain discard attack (although a weak one). Which I don't like. I feel like there ought to be some reason behind an on-gain attack beyond just hey, let's make an on-gain attack. Noble Brigand is a Thief variant which is (a) a weak class of attacks in general (so it's not overpowering) and (b) has fun interactions with e.g. Fool's Gold. IGG isn't technically an attack, but the combination of running out 2 piles at once is a key component of the card. This card just possibly attacks.

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Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you buy this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

EDIT: Changed "When you gain this" to "When you buy this".
So, a somewhat more complicated workshop variant. More precisely, it's a cantrip that turns another card into a non-terminal Workshop that can't gain actions. And you get a little money if you decide to discard an action or treasure. And the on-buy gives you an action that gets top-decked. But it can't gain itself w/o Highway/Bridge etc.  Not that the on-buy would trigger anyway. Maybe a bit too complicated?


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Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.
Don't like this. I don't like the concept of getting extra buys by buying a card, I don't like the tracking it requires ("wait, what order did I buy my cards in; do I have $2 or $4 left? I can't look through my discard pile to check"), and I don't like the on-play either.

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Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.
Why is this a curse type? If the idea is to let it take advantage of it's own abilities, just say "+2 Cards for each Curse or Painful Journey discarded." And the penalties seem too harsh; I can't think of a situation I would ever buy this.

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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province instead.

EDIT: Added "instead" to the end of the text.

So, a weaker Sea Hag (no one will pretty much ever give you a $3 or greater card voluntarily outside of something like Moneylender), that becomes a terminal silver that can only buy Provinces and doesn't stack (but does make it easier to buy more provinces). So it creates a slog, and then occasionally helps you spike to Provinces.


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Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.
Village that goes straight to hand (I'd honestly prefer it being top-decked, because with no gainers "to hand" is essentially the same as being gained normally). If your opponent gains an action card, you can discard it to do a Midnight Gathering effect, which is another reason I'd like it to go on top of the deck (so your opponent is on notice that you have it in hand this turn). But maybe that would be too oppressive. I'm not really sold on this card idea.

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Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

This seems like it would scale badly to multiple players. It also doesn't really feel "Hinterlands" to me. I suspect in practice you will usually be hitting Coppers and Estates early on, so it takes a while before it's good, and then you have the Smugglers problem ("stop copying me!").
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Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.
I like the idea of a "Walled Market", but this implementation is too weak; I'd almost never want it on top of my deck. Maybe if the top half were like Market Square instead.

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Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.

Very similar, but without clogging up the top of your deck. I think this is a much better implementation of this concept.
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Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.
So the pile runs out twice as fast. I don't like that, especially since it guarantees that there will be an uneven distribution of Pyramids (6-4), if you are in a situation where this card is good and you want to spam it. And it seems like whenever it's good, it will need to be at least semi-spammed; if you only play one per turn, you payed $4 for an Oasis.

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Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.
I don't like on-gain attacks, and this is only an on-gain attack ($4 for a Copper is just clogging up your deck).

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Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
This penalty is far too harsh early on, and then too good on the last turn.

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Wayfarer (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one costing $1 or more. Put all the revealed cards into your hand.

When you discard this from play, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper you have in play.
This seems like a cute Counting House variant. I suspect it will rarely draw more than a couple coppers per-play even early on, which means you will be gaining more coppers, which means you draw more coppers. Eventually you get a lot of coppers and then play them and discard them to double-Province. My only concern is that it makes Hunting Party-X seem like a flexible deck type. Literally everything that isn't a Copper, Curse, or Ruins (or have lots of Highways, etc. in play) hurts this deck; even multiple Wayfarers can block the draw and choke the deck.
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Wrclass

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #232 on: September 10, 2013, 06:39:22 pm »
0

Quote
Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D I really like this card! The player interaction is so interesting and unique, with a terminal gold thingy for you and a Haggler thingy for your opponents. It may be better at $4 price point though.


While others have mentioned that this is too weak, I think it's worth pointing out that it's so weak that changing its cost won't fix the problem. This doesn't work at any price.

The issue is that your opponents essentially get a free turn. Unless you are building a Crossroads-Secret Chamber deck or something and then don't play the card when you buy green. You buy a Gold? I'll take a Lab for free please. Province? Duchy. Or Bank. Played two of these and bought Gold? I'll take TWO Labs! This isn't a Haggler externality. It's practically giving your opponent a Possession!

I'll let you buy this so I can win.

(I seem to remember a secret history about opponents gaining cards costing less -- but maybe that was about reactions to attacks? I don't remember.)


Oh..... :( I like the idea though......
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ConMan

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #233 on: September 10, 2013, 07:31:40 pm »
0

Quote
Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D I really like this card! The player interaction is so interesting and unique, with a terminal gold thingy for you and a Haggler thingy for your opponents. It may be better at $4 price point though.


While others have mentioned that this is too weak, I think it's worth pointing out that it's so weak that changing its cost won't fix the problem. This doesn't work at any price.

The issue is that your opponents essentially get a free turn. Unless you are building a Crossroads-Secret Chamber deck or something and then don't play the card when you buy green. You buy a Gold? I'll take a Lab for free please. Province? Duchy. Or Bank. Played two of these and bought Gold? I'll take TWO Labs! This isn't a Haggler externality. It's practically giving your opponent a Possession!

I'll let you buy this so I can win.

(I seem to remember a secret history about opponents gaining cards costing less -- but maybe that was about reactions to attacks? I don't remember.)
Yeah that sounds like a pretty big argument against this one. Although, the top half kind of looks like Contraband so maybe it's meant to fill a similar niche - better for buying lots of cheap engine parts than trying to get one big one? Then I guess it's giving your opponent a Possession on a hand filled with Victory cards. Still probably weaker than Contraband, even if it were cheaper.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #234 on: September 10, 2013, 07:48:19 pm »
0

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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
I like the on-play. It's a weaker Remake, which is fine.

Everyone keeps describing this as a weaker Remake, so I feel like I should point this out again:

This is strictly better* than Develop at the same price.

*Yes, I know "gain a card costing X+2" is not strictly better than "gain a card costing X" in the standard sense. It's close enough for the purpose of evaluating card design though.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #235 on: September 10, 2013, 07:53:48 pm »
+2

Oh, no it's not, Develop gains to the deck, doesn't it.

But still, I think Develop's the relevant comparison here at least as much as Remake.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #236 on: September 10, 2013, 07:54:58 pm »
0

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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
I like the on-play. It's a weaker Remake, which is fine.

Everyone keeps describing this as a weaker Remake, so I feel like I should point this out again:

This is strictly better* than Develop at the same price.

*Yes, I know "gain a card costing X+2" is not strictly better than "gain a card costing X" in the standard sense. It's close enough for the purpose of evaluating card design though.

I think we need a strictly better phrase that doesn't mean "strictly better," but means what everyone think they mean when they say "strictly better."  How about "literally," another word that doesn't mean what it means?
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #237 on: September 10, 2013, 07:57:13 pm »
0

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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
I like the on-play. It's a weaker Remake, which is fine.

Everyone keeps describing this as a weaker Remake, so I feel like I should point this out again:

This is strictly better* than Develop at the same price.

*Yes, I know "gain a card costing X+2" is not strictly better than "gain a card costing X" in the standard sense. It's close enough for the purpose of evaluating card design though.
Surely the point is that it doesn't put them on deck, which Develop does. So Develop can do cute "perfect shuffle luck" tricks to set up your next turn.

But you raise a good point (which I missed while going through them, even though I had read your comment before posting), which I'll have to think about.

Edit: Notice that you posted the same thing immediately afterwards. Which brings up an obvious missing name for a Hinterlands card: Ninja
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 08:00:17 pm by Just a Rube »
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #238 on: September 10, 2013, 07:58:09 pm »
0

Quote
Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
I like the on-play. It's a weaker Remake, which is fine.

Everyone keeps describing this as a weaker Remake, so I feel like I should point this out again:

This is strictly better* than Develop at the same price.

*Yes, I know "gain a card costing X+2" is not strictly better than "gain a card costing X" in the standard sense. It's close enough for the purpose of evaluating card design though.

I think we need a strictly better phrase that doesn't mean "strictly better," but means what everyone think they mean when they say "strictly better."  How about "literally," another word that doesn't mean what it means?

How about "better"?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #239 on: September 10, 2013, 08:12:51 pm »
+1

I think we need a strictly better phrase that doesn't mean "strictly better," but means what everyone think they mean when they say "strictly better."  How about "literally," another word that doesn't mean what it means?

How about "better"?

"Usually better."
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #240 on: September 10, 2013, 08:17:15 pm »
0

I think we need a strictly better phrase that doesn't mean "strictly better," but means what everyone think they mean when they say "strictly better."  How about "literally," another word that doesn't mean what it means?

How about "better"?

"Usually better."

That's good.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #241 on: September 10, 2013, 09:02:35 pm »
0

I think we need a strictly better phrase that doesn't mean "strictly better," but means what everyone think they mean when they say "strictly better."  How about "literally," another word that doesn't mean what it means?

How about "better"?

"Usually better."

That's good.

"Usually better" doesn't seem to get at what's actually meant here. I mean, Swindler is usually better than Chancellor, but that's not an argument against pricing them the same, if you see what I mean.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #242 on: September 10, 2013, 09:12:20 pm »
0

I think we need a strictly better phrase that doesn't mean "strictly better," but means what everyone think they mean when they say "strictly better."  How about "literally," another word that doesn't mean what it means?

How about "better"?

"Usually better."

That's good.

"Usually better" doesn't seem to get at what's actually meant here. I mean, Swindler is usually better than Chancellor, but that's not an argument against pricing them the same, if you see what I mean.

Hmm.  "Almost strictly better"?  But that's a mouthful, and I'm still not sure it captures this particular case.  "Usually better for the same purpose" is the meaning we're looking for, right?  Swindler is usually better than Chancellor, but they serve different functions.  Both Develop and Construct trash and gain, but Construct is usually better at it because it gains two cards at the higher price point.  (Though as you point out later, this is not really true because Develop puts the cards on top.)

It's still a mouthful, but it's accurate.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #243 on: September 10, 2013, 10:32:00 pm »
0

"Almost strictly better" is probably fine for this purpose.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #244 on: September 10, 2013, 10:42:40 pm »
0

Quote
Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
I like the on-play. It's a weaker Remake, which is fine.

Everyone keeps describing this as a weaker Remake, so I feel like I should point this out again:

This is strictly better* than Develop at the same price.

*Yes, I know "gain a card costing X+2" is not strictly better than "gain a card costing X" in the standard sense. It's close enough for the purpose of evaluating card design though.
Well, Noble Brigand is almost strictly better than thief. It is probably fine.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #245 on: September 10, 2013, 10:43:45 pm »
+1

It's as I feared: Many of the Hinterlands card submissions ended being just convoluted, not cohesive, or just strange. This was definitely a harder set to design for than Prosperity.

Some thoughts on a few cards.

Quote
Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
Of the +buy on-buy cards, this one seems the least likely to get out of hand. You have to discard a card to get the effect, so it's not an endless loop kind of thing. Unfortunately, this gets out of hand with a single Highway (a Hinterlands card) in play!

Quote
Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.
Even with a no-victory card clause for the bottom, Dark Ages cards break this ability.

Quote
Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.
Okay, there is a bunch talk about this card. I'll admit it's one the really unique submissions here, though it compares to Native Village. If any kind card form here belongs in Seaside, it's this one. I'd like to see a variation of this later on in the contest. As written, It just seems silly.

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Buying this multiple times in a turn does reduce costs each time.
What's up with the clarification here? Why would buying this reduce costs? Uh, seems too strong in the presence of gainers. One Stonemason that gives you 2 Estates makes Estates free during your buy phase.

Quote
Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.
I like the concept, and I'm curious to see how strong it is. It can turn a Silver into a Gold for only $5, but I think you need to reliably activate the peddler on-play effect to make it truly effective. I think what it really needs is some sort of first-game engine.

Quote
Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.
I like this one too. I noticed the "less that this" clause, Which helps with a bunch of balance issues. I don't mind that it's similar to Cartographer. We haven't seen a Cellar variant that doesn't reduce handsize yet.

Quote
Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.
Don't remember if I talked about this one yet, but seriously. I have 1 Highway and a couple of Goons in play. Mega ownage.

Quote
Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).
We should give this one a chance. Cantrip trashing is really strong, but this misses a shuffle. But then, if I open Nomad Camp...

Quote
Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.

When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.
A good Spy effect, if such a thing exists. Sure, there is some AP involved, but this is terminal and actually has a good chance of being effective.

Quote
River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
I notice the anti-synergy with itself and the on-gain effect. Worth a closer look.

Quote
Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.
That on-gain effect is new, and I like it. But the on-play...that's something that should be on-gain, or on a terminal action.

Quote
Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.
I like the allusion to both Island and Oasis in the name (am I missing one?). This compares unfavourably to Inn, I'm afraid

Quote
Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.
I don't think people realize just how much benefit this kind of thing is for your opponents. The 3-pile problem is especially relevant in multiplayer games.  But as it's been pointed out, Contraband also has a pretty big penalty, so perhaps it fills a very specialized role. Must it be terminal?

Quote
Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.
I'm for this card. using 4 buys gets you a Province next turn, and all those Silvers help you get at least one Province in subsequent turns. I like this silver flooder with Gambit potential.

Quote
Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
If you expect your card to be well received, you should distance your card from the stupidly swingy Chancellor and Counting House as much as possible.

Quote
Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.
Reminds me of Scouting Party from the Dominion Outtakes, but this only applies to one player, so it's not such a mess in the end. This fits Seaside much better than Hinterlands, though.

Quote
Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
It's been mentioned that this is awful for the game when p1 opens 5/2, especially since this card is actually powerful.

Quote
Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.
I like cards that benefit large handsizes. Weak with the top-only effect, but the bottom effect makes up for that, I think

Quote
Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.
This gets trashed if it turns over a copy of itself, so no, not that broken. I might even vote for it.

Quote
Wayfarer (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to its cost in coins.
Yes. Cool. Salvager in a pinch. Now this feels more like Hinterlands.

Quote
Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
Powerful, but implemented as a reaction that has this card discarded. I don't see what's wrong with it, and I might make for less dreadful games in the end.

Quote
Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.
Barring Pearl Diver, I expect the bottom-of-the-deck thing will be best for junk cards that you want to miss the reshuffle.
You know, sometimes simple and concise is better.

Quote
Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Though it looks like a worse Haggler, it's at least better for gaining cards at the $2 and $3 price range. I'm sure it can be rebalanced if needed. The real question is if Haggler makes it superfluous.

Quote
Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.
The issue with this card is that you'll be discouraged to get these if your opponent already has a few because the placing of a card onto the mat isn't optional.

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
The top part is cool. The bottom part has potential. Both parts have a draw-and-discard theme. Overall, it's nice, I guess.


Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you buy this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.
A bunch of Workshop variants, and this one possibly has the most charm. You can't gain Schemes or other actions with it, but it's a cantrip so it's just as well that it doesn't. Silk Roads are fair game for this. Tricky to use right, but I approve.

Quote
Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province instead.
It's become apparent that it's really a no-brainer to take the curse. Unlike Cultist and Torturer, this doesn't draw, so there's little risk of being flooded with curses. With the "instead" change, this should just make Provinces worth $2 less, no?

Quote
Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.
Weirdly enough, I prefer this without the reaction bit, only because it would belong below a separate line. Or the on-gain can be removed. Either way makes this better.

Quote
Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
This scales so much with the number of players. It's a cantrip on top of that. This can't possibly work as a cantrip.

Quote
Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.
Maybe this is bland, but it would have been a great addition to Hinterlands. Keep in mind that, unlike Walled Village, this doesn't have anti-synergy with itself. So you will eventually get the +buy when you need it, at the cost of 1 spot in your hand.

Quote
Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.
I like how this card works, but I actually think this is too powerful at $4.

Quote
Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.
Why are people so against this card? At least this should be fine balance-wise. It's not like Mill above, where the card's on-play is actually good and getting it denies others from getting Mill. This sucks once in your deck, and it only costs $4. If anything, this saves someone with a 3/4 split from losing horribly to Mountebank/Chapel or something. I have no issues against it.

Quote
Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
Now I'm wondering about how decent of a nerf the forced vicoty card gain is. It still looks too strong on board with hybrid victory cards, Crossroads, or Silk Road.

Quote
Wayfarer (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one costing $1 or more. Put all the revealed cards into your hand.

When you discard this from play, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper you have in play.
This opens up a new copper-based strategy. The effect below the line is what elevates this to nifty/cool/interesting territory.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #246 on: September 10, 2013, 11:35:07 pm »
+1

Quote
Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
Of the +buy on-buy cards, this one seems the least likely to get out of hand. You have to discard a card to get the effect, so it's not an endless loop kind of thing. Unfortunately, this gets out of hand with a single Highway (a Hinterlands card) in play!

Huntsmen is unlikely to get out of hand, because its cost increases.  This one doesn't give any extra buys, and the discard requirement means it isn't even so problematic with Highway.

Quote
Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).
We should give this one a chance. Cantrip trashing is really strong, but this misses a shuffle. But then, if I open Nomad Camp...

What about Nomad Camp?  You open NC, get 2 Artefacts after that... they still miss the reshuffle.  The question is whether the delay is enough to keep this from being too powerful.  I suspect not at $2, maybe at $3 or $4.

Quote
Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
If you expect your card to be well received, you should distance your card from the stupidly swingy Chancellor and Counting House as much as possible.

The Counting House issue is a fair criticism, but Chancellor is not.  Chancellor is swingy because you draw it at the right time or you don't.  By putting the Chancellor effect on gain, it allows skilled players to trigger it at a good time.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Though it looks like a worse Haggler, it's at least better for gaining cards at the $2 and $3 price range. I'm sure it can be rebalanced if needed. The real question is if Haggler makes it superfluous.

I didn't notice the similarity to Haggler before, but it's been pointed out several times and it seems obvious now.  How is Fence better for gaining $2-$3 cards?  To do that, you need $2 in your hand.  With Haggler, you only need $1 in hand to do the same thing.  Haggler is almost always better.

The edge case where Fence is better is when the cheaper card that you want is a Victory card.  Haggler can't gain VP, but with Fence you can buy a green card and gain anything, including another green card.  So with Fence, you could buy Silk Road and gain a Fence or a Duchy.  With Haggler, you can buy Haggler or Duchy but you can't gain Silk Road off of that.

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Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.
Maybe this is bland, but it would have been a great addition to Hinterlands. Keep in mind that, unlike Walled Village, this doesn't have anti-synergy with itself. So you will eventually get the +buy when you need it, at the cost of 1 spot in your hand.

I wholeheartedly agree. :)
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #247 on: September 10, 2013, 11:49:01 pm »
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Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
Of the +buy on-buy cards, this one seems the least likely to get out of hand. You have to discard a card to get the effect, so it's not an endless loop kind of thing. Unfortunately, this gets out of hand with a single Highway (a Hinterlands card) in play!

Huntsmen is unlikely to get out of hand, because its cost increases.  This one doesn't give any extra buys, and the discard requirement means it isn't even so problematic with Highway.
You're right about Huntsman. I must have been tired.

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Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).
We should give this one a chance. Cantrip trashing is really strong, but this misses a shuffle. But then, if I open Nomad Camp...

What about Nomad Camp?  You open NC, get 2 Artefacts after that... they still miss the reshuffle.  The question is whether the delay is enough to keep this from being too powerful.  I suspect not at $2, maybe at $3 or $4.
I guess a Nomad Camp opening isn't much worse than an Artefact/Artefact opening.

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
If you expect your card to be well received, you should distance your card from the stupidly swingy Chancellor and Counting House as much as possible.

The Counting House issue is a fair criticism, but Chancellor is not.  Chancellor is swingy because you draw it at the right time or you don't.  By putting the Chancellor effect on gain, it allows skilled players to trigger it at a good time.
Oddly enough, I was comparing the on-play of Witch Doctor to Chancellor, not the on-gain. If you draw Witch Doctor at the end of your shuffle, it's even more annoying than drawing Chancellor at the end of your reshuffle.

Edit: I mean close to the point when you would reshuffle. What do you call that anyway?

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Though it looks like a worse Haggler, it's at least better for gaining cards at the $2 and $3 price range. I'm sure it can be rebalanced if needed. The real question is if Haggler makes it superfluous.

I didn't notice the similarity to Haggler before, but it's been pointed out several times and it seems obvious now.  How is Fence better for gaining $2-$3 cards?  To do that, you need $2 in your hand.  With Haggler, you only need $1 in hand to do the same thing.  Haggler is almost always better.

The edge case where Fence is better is when the cheaper card that you want is a Victory card.  Haggler can't gain VP, but with Fence you can buy a green card and gain anything, including another green card.  So with Fence, you could buy Silk Road and gain a Fence or a Duchy.  With Haggler, you can buy Haggler or Duchy but you can't gain Silk Road off of that.
I meant that, with Fence, you gain a $3 cost card if you buy a $2, not a Curse/Copper/Poor House like you would with Haggler.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 11:50:37 pm by markusin »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #248 on: September 11, 2013, 12:00:08 am »
0

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Though it looks like a worse Haggler, it's at least better for gaining cards at the $2 and $3 price range. I'm sure it can be rebalanced if needed. The real question is if Haggler makes it superfluous.

I didn't notice the similarity to Haggler before, but it's been pointed out several times and it seems obvious now.  How is Fence better for gaining $2-$3 cards?  To do that, you need $2 in your hand.  With Haggler, you only need $1 in hand to do the same thing.  Haggler is almost always better.

The edge case where Fence is better is when the cheaper card that you want is a Victory card.  Haggler can't gain VP, but with Fence you can buy a green card and gain anything, including another green card.  So with Fence, you could buy Silk Road and gain a Fence or a Duchy.  With Haggler, you can buy Haggler or Duchy but you can't gain Silk Road off of that.
I meant that, with Fence, you gain a $3 cost card if you buy a $2, not a Curse/Copper/Poor House like you would with Haggler.

But Haggler comes with +$2 while Fence has nothing.  When you can afford a $2 card with Fence, you would have been able to afford a $4 card with Haggler.  If you have to buy a $2 card with Haggler, you would only be able buy a Copper if you have Fence instead.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #249 on: September 11, 2013, 12:59:00 am »
+1

So, here's part 2 of my card reviews, where I cover the first half of the submissions, and pontificate for the 0 of you who care. I do have a card in this contest (although I won't say which half it was in), so if you feel I'm bashing your card unfairly, I can only say that my card has been bashed pretty heavily thus far.

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Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.
Others have described the balance problems, as well as the fact that this doesn't really fit in Hinterlands.


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Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
I don't  like "when you buy this, +X buy" cards. This one is better than most (and inherently somewhat self-limiting due to the discard factor), but still...

I'm not sure what to think of the on-play; the filter is like a Squire or a Bazaar that always draws a dead card, but the putting the other anywhere in your deck seems a bit strange. Not bad strange, mind you, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. It seems like most of the time, you'll put it on either the top or bottom of your deck; you can't really set up a mega-turn unless you happen to draw the mega-turn enablers in just the right way with this (i.e. spread out so that none are clumped). If you have multiple of these to play, I suppose you can place the cards so that they won't be seen again (or will, if you wanted to discard both) to avoid the Pearl Diver problem.

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Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.
This could just as easily read: Player 2 reveals a 5-2 split or a Baker in the kingdom. If he doesn't, he loses the game on turn 3. Even without letting you trash victory cards, this still has issues with Dark Ages cards. Also, I just don't like the mechanic.

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Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.
As it stands, you will use the on-play exactly once. You will trade 4 cards of junk for a silver; basically a one-time chapel that gains a silver in-hand. This then becomes a dead card. You never want to play it again, because you are trading your new hand for a hand that you already decided to sacrifice a turn to get rid of. Early turns are more important than later turns, so that won't have been a decent hand. Plus it's a terminal, so you can't even store a powerful action that you for some reason didn't want to play that turn. You can't even use it to set-up a Native Village-Bridge type situation, because it only works if you already had all the NVs and Bridges in hand already; in which case why would you bother with the Hinterland.

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Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Buying this multiple times in a turn does reduce costs each time.
So, this quickly snowballs. Other people have already done the math. But that's a big problem, and not one that can really be fixed without making the card completely uninteresting.

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Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
So, this is strong. We know Draw 2, discard 1 nonterminal proved to be too strong for $4, and this is clearly stronger. Bump the price up.

I don't like the on-gain; it's not clearly a penalty or a bonus, just different. So it doesn't act to compensate for a too strong card (a la Embassy's silver gain penalty) and it doesn't really have an obvious synergy for the card itself, either thematically or mechanically.

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Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.
This needs to say "other than Trade Agreement" at the end of the below the line clause. With that change, it becomes sort of a Border Smithy. Which means it needs to go in engines of some sort (BM will use the in-play clause probably once) to gain engine pieces to go with its draw.

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Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.
I like the idea of an on-gain mine. Like it a lot. Probably more than I should. The top is a highly conditional Peddler. Seems fine.

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Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.
This is a non-terminal Secret Chamber variant. The original Vault/Secret Chamber read "your Victory Cards are also Coppers this turn" or words to that effect, according to the Secret Histories.

Yes, it can stack much more easily than Secret Chamber, but how many $5 VP cards are you planning on getting early?

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Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.

Cantrip Cellar. Seems reasonable. Not sure of the synergy with the on-gain, but maybe I'm missing something.
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Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.
Don't like this. I've already said that I don't like cards that give you +buy on gain, and that's essentially all this card does. And someone else already pointed out the concerns with Highway.

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Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).
Not sure the delay is enough to make a safe cantrip trasher at $2 reasonable. On the other hand, the Chapel problem (needs to be equally accessible to everyone at start, importance as escape hatch in completely junked decks) argues in favor of leaving it at $2.

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Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.

When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

EDIT: Added +2 Cards to Ring Leader's on-play effect.
Super-Spy. I don't like the added decisions/AP. On the other hand, it's terminal, so it's less likely to stack than Spy. In some ways, it's  like a Pillage for the next turn, in other ways it's a weakened Rabble.


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River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
I'm pretty sure all the good Dr. Who jokes have been made by now, so I'll just stick to analyzing the card. Without buys/gainers, it's just a $3 worth $2VP, like Tunnel w/o discarders. Even with buys, I'm not sure how often in the pre-greening phase I'd want another dead card just to increase my available money by one per non-Victory buy.

I think the idea is to do interesting things with TFB cards (Workshop this, then Remake it into a Gold), which is probably one reason why it's a Victory Card.

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Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.
This will likely be in my hand at the start of every turn (assuming I gain at least one card a turn). So matching up pairs of Factory to take advantage of the combo will be easy. Interesting.

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Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.
The above-line effect is extremely weak. The bottom is potentially ok, but not enough to justify a $5 price tag on such a weak action, especially since a $5 hand is less likely to be available in an early hand with junk, anyway. Even when you lower the price, the on-buy is effectively replacing a junk card (probably Estate) with a slightly less junky card (+2 Cards, Discard 2 cards).

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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.
The penalty is way too strong. Unless you are running an engine based on ludicrously cheap ingredients, this will help your opponent almost as much as you with each play, and they still have their own turns to help themselves.

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Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.
A solid Silver-flooder. Very appropriate.

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
Back to my old point about opening. I open with this every time. I Chancellor my deck (and since I've just seen either my $4 or my $5 hand when I buy this, I'm almost certainly getting a better hand than I would normally). I have an excellent chance of skipping most of my Estates for the second shuffle (and note that this card itself gives +$1, which is above average for my deck at this point).

So it's super strong early on, in an unbalanced way. Later on (and really even from the beginning) it's super-swingy.

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Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.
Potentially lots of revealing/decision-making. Otherwise ok?

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Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.
I already said that I don't like +buy on gain, but here it's bad in a different way. $6 is just $2 less than a Province, and there is no reason to buy this if you aren't greening, so you would generally (PPR aside) prefer Province to this, and this to Duchy. That's it. This is just a slight tweak on PPR situations. That doesn't seem worth a kingdom slot.

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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
Once again, openings for on-gain cards. I open with this, all my opponents have their opening hands crippled. I can keep this up as long as it's in the supply, keeping my opponents crippled, while using my money/gainers (and note this is a gainer that can gain itself) to build up and win before they've even had a chance to start building an engine.

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
I am sure there is a joke about the Travelling Salesman Problem here, but I'm not getting it.

As for the card itself, it fuels its draw by discarding Treasures, which is somewhat strange (though again, strange doesn't necessarily mean bad). The reaction messes with end-game greening in a way that I'm not sure I like; I'd be tempted to disallow it to gain Victory cards, just to prevent me from gaining Duchy on all my opponents' Province buys.

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Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.
Another Workshop variant, with a twist. It can always gain $5 (at the cost of discarding your hand). If they collide, the other copies become effectively silvers for the purpose. So there is the synergy. If you can get a big enough hand, you can gain Provinces with it.

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Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.
So, I gave in and looked up Oicho-Kabu on Wikipedia, and apparently it's a Japanese card game resembling Black Jack and Baccarat. I'm now envisioning a player using this card, buying something, and saying "hit me". If they have multiple buys, they can keep doing this until they hit a Victory card, at which point they go bust. So kudos for the theme.


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Wayfarer (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to its cost in coins.

So, a Market Square with an on-buy Salvager effect (without the buy). Too strong for $2, especially since it synergizes strongly with itself (giving cantrip plus buy, which means this card is easy to amass and use to clean out your junk quickly). Not sure what the right cost is, but on-buy trashing, even without being able to spend the coins right away, seems very strong early on.
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