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Author Topic: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands  (Read 106475 times)

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Archetype

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #200 on: September 10, 2013, 12:41:59 am »
0

I just realized there are like 10.8 typos in my fan card reviewing, but that thing took too long to write anyway. So hopefully everything makes sense.
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nopawnsintended

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #201 on: September 10, 2013, 01:35:38 am »
+1

I will pick three five eight (couldn't resist) cards that I like.  A couple of notes:
  • I like the idea of having a workshop variant for Hinterlands.  It's one of the easiest ways to fatten a deck, and if the problem is that Hinterlands doesn't have a lot of <$4 cost cards to gain, that's not such a problem in the Treasure Chest expansion.  Thus, I judge the cards Hinterlandsy'ness on the basis of whether it feels good in the general universe of cards, but also has that special Hinterlands flair that I have all grown to love.
  • I think a card is better if the above and below the line tend to synergize.  This isn't necessary, but when it happens, or if there's a theme, I'm a sucker for that

Other than that, let's get onto my favorites.

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.


Don't hate me for liking this, but I like the idea of having an Apprentice that uses renewable energy.  Get a deck full of actions, and you'll maybe be able to play more of them than if you had Apprentice.  Sometimes it helps to not trash the card... kinda like the difference between Throne Room and Procession.

Quote
River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

"The only water in the forest is the river."  I like the on gain effect here.  I think people have been missing that this is on gain. For fun, imagine we're in a Colony game with Border Village, River, and Ironworks.  I get a hand of Border Village, Ironworks, Ironworks, Copper, Copper.  Play BV, draw Copper.  Play Ironworks, gain River, draw Silver.  Play Ironworks, gain BV, gain River.  Now, I have $5 in hand and Platinum costs $5.  Rock on, River Song!

Quote
Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.

Pretty nice.  I would like it better if the on gain effect were to use its effect fully -- i.e., "Put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile.  Reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curses.  Shuffle."

Quote
Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, eachthoer player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

I like the self synergy, and the incentive to try and pile these by oneself.

Quote
Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
Yes. Please. Just swingy enough and messes up how curses work counters cursers, ruiners, and copper flooders.  Note: This doesn't say to gain a Gold instead of a Curse, so you gain both.  Thus, I'm not sure if I want Trader or this in hand when my opponent hits me with Mountebank.  I like how this does to Cursers and Junkers what Tunnel does to discard attacks.

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
I like this lots.  As a Dominion fanboy, I like the separation between buy and gain.

Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

I like what this card does to the deck composition.  It floods Silver if you are clogged.  It gains cheap victory cards when you are not clogged (Tunnel, Silk Road, etc).  Seems like a good Alt-VP enabler.  More than that it is cheap to pick up if there are any sub-$5 Actions you would like to play next turn.

Quote
Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.

I like that the effect goes with the name.  Clever idea.  Makes me want to build a Pyramid Scheme deck.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #202 on: September 10, 2013, 01:46:14 am »
0

Quote
Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.
While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province instead.

So, now this has become a Witch with a Thief-bane, and a conditional +2$... Seeing it like this, i think it's... Okay. I guess it's one of the cards that will be at the bottom end of the voting, though it's not actually that bad. I think it's one of those cards that had more thought flow in them than you see.

The "Thief" bane is not quite correct.  Thief can whiff and even help opponents by trashing Copper, and it doesn't touch opponents' hands.  This one would hit something that costs good, and it pulls the card from the hand.  It's going to be really rare when it would be worth it to give you a free Silver while losing a Silver from my next hand (and from my deck as a whole).  Most cards costing more than $2 will be good enough that losing them would hurt a lot, and if they are in my deck then I probably wanted them.  Just accepting the Curse is probably going to be the right move almost all the time.  The choice is really not interesting.
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Nic

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #203 on: September 10, 2013, 01:55:12 am »
0

Quote
Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Choose one: Gain a Silver, putting in on your Hinterland mat; or swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.


Those changes make it an entirely different card. In fact, the Silver gaining is probably now the most important part of the card. In its original form, it was probably worse than Scout, and even the +1 Action only gets it into the Scout territory. Sure, I'm all for voting for cards with interesting concepts, but this seems like too big of a change to assume to vote for, and would feel entirely different than the submitted card.

That's fair. I'm guessing it won't win, but I hope the author resubmits an updated version for the second Hinterlands contest.
Ditto. The non-terminal Hinterland I had in my head was my favorite card from the bunch, but that wasn't submitted to the actual contest. I guess I just assumed that would be changed, because it's just so sad otherwise. I do hope someone figures out what will make this card work in time for the second contest.

Now the only card I'm willing to vote for in this bunch is Clairvoyant, and even then I'd like it more giving spice to two other bland cards. Perhaps it'd be nicer with less superfluous choices?
Quote
Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.
It doesn't combo with Mystic or other cards in that vein, but it really didn't before. Still makes Pearl Diver useful, though!

There's an entry I totally omitted (again). Another card named Wayfarer, which I will add to the bottom of the ballot. I would be well chuffed if Tables and WW (and everyone else) would weigh in on it.

Ehh, I like it. It gives you a way to recover from junking attacks, and the cards it gains for you will break up your Wayfarer draws in later turns. It'd be more fun if it was nonterminal, but then the card would in fact be terribroken. I'll probably vote for it.
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GwinnR

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #204 on: September 10, 2013, 01:56:19 am »
+1

Is there the theme for the contest #3 yet?
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #205 on: September 10, 2013, 01:59:09 am »
0

Just playtested Wagon Raider. It was dominating. I think the alternative to the Curse should be less awfull, like "discard a card costing 3$ or more that is not a victory card". Gaining cards your opponents becomes a big deal after a while.

Also playtested Artefact. A double Artefact opening with Big Money after that lost against a Bridge/Oasis engine, but not by much (3 points). Maybe raise the cost to 3$? A 2/5 split is too much of an advantage otherwise, i think.


I'm horrible at playtesting, more so when i'm tired.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 12:28:12 pm by Asper »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #206 on: September 10, 2013, 02:15:31 am »
0

Just playtested Wagon Raider. It was dominating. I think the alternative to the Curse should be less awfull, like "discard a card costing 3$ or more that is not a victory card". Gaining cards your opponents becomes a big deal after a while.

Also playtested Artefact. A double Artefact opening with Big Money after that lost against a Bridge/Oasis engine, but not by much (3 points). Maybe raise the cost to 3$? A 2/5 split is too much of an advantage otherwise, i think.

In what way was Wagon Raider dominating?  The attack is weaker than Sea Hag.  The bottom part only helps when you start buying Provinces, and even then it's just a terminal Silver.  I guess the bottom gets better if you also have +Buy.

Artefact into BM doesn't sound great.  It's strong trashing, which will shine more with engines.  Definitely think optional non-terminal trashing is too strong for $2, even with the delay.  I expect too strong for $3 as well.
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GwinnR

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #207 on: September 10, 2013, 02:40:25 am »
0

Quote
Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.
________________________________________
When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.
I like this, but I think you should not put it onto deck, when you react. As it is now you can do this every turn.
Also a problem: If there are no gainers the Factory is nearly useless, because putting the gained card into your hand only meens it goes to your discard pile as normal.

Quote
Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.
________________________________________
While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.
Here I think the opponents should not have the chance to get Victory-cards.

Same here:
Quote
Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.
________________________________________
When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
Plus discarding Coppers for +2 cards seems very strong. May be overpowered.

Quote
Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.
________________________________________
When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.
Should this be "When you would gain a card other than COURIER (A)"?

Quote
Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.
Not that it would be interesting for the vote, but maybe for improving the card: I think this should cost $5. Most cards you wnat to play often cost 5$ or more. The Midnight Gathering should cost more, because you have the choice which card you want to play (like Band of Misfits, which only allows to "play" a card that costs less) and you have the cycling-effect.

Same here:
Quote
Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.
________________________________________
When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.

Quote
Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.
________________________________________
When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.
I like this idea, but I think this is way to strong. Expand does nearly the same thing with "Gain a card costing up to 3$ more" and it costs 7$ and gains no other cards. The discarding-clause seems not really weaken the card. Normally you only have 3 cards in your hand after playing one and trashing one.
But again this does not interest for the votes.

Quote
Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.
________________________________________
When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.
Could lead to really strange games, but I love this idea of pseudo-embargoing.

Quote
Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.
________________________________________
When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.
I also don't like the idea of copying Duchies (and Dukes ;-)). This should exclude Victory cards I think.

Quote
Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.
________________________________________
Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.
"If you do, gain a Victory card costinGGG less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses."
"You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse." Is this right for the card its own? So, if I buy a Victory card and trash the Painful Journey, may I get 2 Painful Journeys?
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #208 on: September 10, 2013, 03:35:50 am »
0

I was looking through peoples' comments and was suprised how little people liked Hinterland and Shaman, two of my favorite cards submitted. I agree Sham is underpriced, but at $5 it should be perfectly balanced, kind of like Band of Misfits but requires you to have the card in your deck. It really isn't a good card in the opening. It also boosts filtering, both for you and your opponants and hasn't really been explored. (Sage doesn't count because it gives you a good card, not the good card)
Hinterland also seems quite interesting with the silver thing added and really seems quite different and interesting.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #209 on: September 10, 2013, 03:45:09 am »
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It's a slight nerf because you can discard junk pretty often.  Usually discarding an Estate and keeping an Estate in hand amount to the same thing.
No. It's an enormous nerf which totally changes what the card can be used for - not even just in games with Estate-trashing (which are very common). When was the last time you only wanted to play one Laboratory per turn? If you play five Laboratories, you get a ten-card hand, which typically does not contain five junk cards that you don't mind discarding.

The Unstoppable Alchemist Stack draws your deck, because each one of them is a Laboratory. If you nerfed Alchemists in this way, it would just draw your preferred five card starting hand.

With this nerf, the card is no longer for drawing, it's for filtering, and often Warehouse will just be better at filtering because it lets you see more cards.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #210 on: September 10, 2013, 03:45:31 am »
+1

I find all this love for Hinterland totally mystifying. I grant that what it does is novel, but it's also just not very good as written, and has no easy fix. And really, it's not THAT Novel--it's similar to Native Village Yeah, I just don't think it's exciting at all. Or good.
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Aidan Millow

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #211 on: September 10, 2013, 06:43:54 am »
0

Potential fix for Quagmire (which I love but, as people have pointed out, is totally broken): add "other than a Victory card pile."
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #212 on: September 10, 2013, 07:01:58 am »
0

Potential fix for Quagmire (which I love but, as people have pointed out, is totally broken): add "other than a Victory card pile."

It still ends the game turn 1 with Catacombs if you have at least $3, which you usually do.  Also too strong with Squire, Cultist, and Fortress in my opinion.  Maybe say the three cards are put into the trash pile, rather than saying they are trashed?
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andwilk

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #213 on: September 10, 2013, 07:26:55 am »
+1

Potential fix for Quagmire (which I love but, as people have pointed out, is totally broken): add "other than a Victory card pile."

It still ends the game turn 1 with Catacombs if you have at least $3, which you usually do.  Also too strong with Squire, Cultist, and Fortress in my opinion.  Maybe say the three cards are put into the trash pile, rather than saying they are trashed?

I think saying that is trying to circumvent how the trashing convention is supposed to work.  Cards only get into the trash pile by "trashing" them.  Regardless, I feel that Quagmire is a broken card as written, and only limiting it to non-Victory cards doesn't help it's cause because of all of the Dark Ages cards with on-trash effects.  Another one is Hunting Grounds... you can gain 3 Duchies or 9 Estates.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #214 on: September 10, 2013, 07:46:26 am »
+1

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.
Rounded down I guess? With a high enough $4+ action density this is easily "Draw your whole deck including the cards originally discarded". Quite probably too strong.

Quote
Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
The bottom part is probably okay-ish for $3, but probably more on the $2 side (compared to Squire for example). With the bottom part it actually only costs $1, AND it adds a buys. So, I think a bit too cheap and a bit too similar to Border Village.

Quote
Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.
Utterly broken. $9 with 3 Buys ends the game...

Quote
Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.
Argh... new components I really don't like. Regardless, this feels extremely weak... so you need to buy 4 of these to actually have a Province hand to swap into? And before you get bascially... nothing?

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Buying this multiple times in a turn does reduce costs each time.
At first glance this felt a bit strong, but after some thought I think I like it. I mean, this does not very much most of the game, but some of them can really help engines to catch up in points very effectively. Plus it might be nice for slogs (Silk Road, I look at you)... You yeah, nice.


Quote
Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
Hm... so the main effect is like a better Warehouse... The thing is, it is a MUCH better Warehouse for $4 (which is quite a good card for $3), so this alone is a bit strong.
The bottom part I can't really grasp. Is this good or bad for your opponents? Probably bad most of the times? Should this be an attack then? (of course not, since it's on-gain)
So yeah, overall not that interesting and a bit strong.

Quote
Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.
Well, first: I don't really think Hinterlands needs another Smithy variant. But second: I suppose this is fine. Of course this card is quite strong with good Villages around (Bazaar!), but without it's just an expensive Smithy.
The card on its own is fine probably, but it's not terribly exciting and Hinterlands already has Margrave and Embassy...

Quote
Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.
Interesting. So this is a Peddler variant that wants no Treasure trashing, but deals differently with this issue (so, nicely on-theme). The thing is, I suppose this is a bit swingy a slightly too weak. I mean, Peddler plus is usually $5, but the Plus is only on-buy here, which makes it rather mediocre, AND the issue of not maybe having 3 Treasures in hand really really nerfs it. So: Nice idea, but a bit weak I think.

Quote
Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.
Err... how does this card play? Like self-synergetic? Sure, with 5 Emeralds in hand you can buy another Emerald... but other than that?
Maybe I'm wrong, but this seems to be extremely weak.

Quote
Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.
The Super-Cellar. Probably fine, maybe a bit on the weaker side.

Quote
Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.
So this basically trades $1 for 2 Buys on all Action cards in the supply. Probably adds some nice variability, but the card itself is only like a middle man and not a factor on its own. I guess I sort of like it, but I don't know whether this is enough to justify a cards slot.

Quote
Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).
Very strong main effect with a very serious nerf to it. I suppose it's still a great opening buy, but the issue of trashers that it gets worse the later you get it is even more severe here, since it's delayed by a shuffle AND shuffles tend to get longer as the game progresses. More or less Chapel version 2, and therefore also viable at $2 (you need to be able to open this together with another card). Niche application, but probably fine.

Quote
Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.
Looks fine. I like it.

Quote
River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Well, another 2VP for $3... with the bottom part not really worth a lot. I mean, why would you like Remodel into or Ironworks a dead Victory card if you don't intend to buy Victory cards yet. Sort of an anti-synergy, which leaves it with only the top part. Which is... boring.

Quote
Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.
A Workshop variant only for engine building basically. I don't know whether we need such a thing, but the card itself seems fine. The on-gain is interesting, since you can potentially draw the Factory back with the gained card, which could lead to quite some creative turns.

Quote
Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.
Do we really need an on-gain Island? I mean, there's not even a tabelau for that... Plus, the on-play is incredibly weak, so $5 costs sounds just WAY to high.

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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.
Probably weak. The top is sort of like Harvest mostly, with the +Buy traded for a potential $4. The bottom part, however, is quite a drawback, so the card would maybe be fine at $4? Don't know.

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Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.
Another Silver flooder. Buy 2 Silvers, gain 2 Silvers on top of your deck. Probably fine at $4, but do we really need another Silver generator in Hinterlands?

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
Now this is interesting. It obviously helps against Cursing and clogging, it might support slogs, and it is maybe even ok as an opener (?)... I think I like it.

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Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.
Fine card probably, but not all that exciting I guess.

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Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.
4VP for $6 alone is a lot (it at least requires some work for Fairgrounds), so maybe a bit strong? In any event it's just not very interesting, and on-gain +Buys dont' feel that attractive to me (especially for expensive cards like this one).

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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
Interesting and quite complicated card I suppose. I mean, you can of course gain more Mills, which is like a Margrave attack for your opponents, but in the end you have tons of Mills, which is sort of like tons of worse Universities. You probably want this in the same sort of games you want University, which makes one of those a bit obsolete I think. Apart from that I like it.

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
On first glance the bottom part seems a bit unconnected to the top part, but well, both are trade-off engine effects. So yeah, I really like the top part of the card, and maybe it would be enough to make it viable on its own.
The bottom part... hmmm... it helps a bit against an early greening opponent (the question is, would you dsicard the Salesman for that?), and in the endgame it's a bit like the "do I gain a Duchy off of that Province buy, or do I rather keep it and hope for something better".
So yeah, maybe the bottom thing is not necessary, but I sort of like both effects.
Edit: Maybe the bottom part would be better like "When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal this. If you do, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand" to make it more thematic and a bit weaker.


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Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.
A tricky and interesting Workshop variant. Maybe a bit on the strong side, but probably fine.

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Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.
Boring top part, complicated and swingy bottom part. I'm not a fan.

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Wayfarer (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to its cost in coins.
Looks a bit overpowered in the sense that the early game will often be a race for this card. So with a 4/3 opening you can buy two of those, trash 2 Estates and gain a Silver and a $4-cost off from it... That's like, awesome. Probably too strong.

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Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.
Looks like a decent Lab variant. Maybe not a power $5, but probably fine.

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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
Ok, this fits the theme, but it's SOOO similar to Tunnel. A Gold gainer with 2 VP for $3 and just a different trigger. Yeah, probably okay-ish card in a vacuum, but just too much like Tunnel.

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Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.
Interesting. The idea is intriguing (i.e. the trade-off between Victory cards and additional Actions), but I feel it's too swingy dependend on the additional pile. Maybe that's not too bad though.

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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.
Hard to tell whether this is worth $5. Maybe it is. Theme-wise not very Hinterlandsy though...

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Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.
The card itself would work I guess, but it's a bit wordy for my taste. Compared to Tunnel probably a bit weak, since the Reaction is useful less often I suppose.

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Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.
Yet another Workshop variant, this time with a filtering effect attached. Favors slogs and rushs a bit more than Armory for examply, but overall not terribly exciting.

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Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.
Uh... well... Estate trashing is super-strong, Copper trashing is often fine as well (depends on $2 cost cards available), $5-cost trashing is extremely strong (hello Expand). So ok, what's the drawback. Discard down to 2 hurts of course, especially if you add this to engines. On the other hand, there are engines that can handle that, and compared to the effect it's not THAT bad. The on-gain helps your oppoents, so that's a nerf as well. I guess this card can either be a good terminal addition or way overpowered. Overall a bit too strong I feel.

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Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.
Does the "Look..." part belong to the "Otherwise" clause? Anyway, up to "...put it back" the card looks more like a classic $2 cost, but fine. The rest sounds weak as well and a bit useless (why would you want to put a card from your hand at the bottom of your deck?). But even with this thing, quite probably a $2 cost, and not a very interesting one.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

EDIT: Changed from "when you gain a card" to "when you buy a card".
Hm... not terribly exciting, since something simliar already exists, but apart from that probably fine.

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Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.
The action seems quite strong, but probably ok? It's like a half-Golem with more control over what you draw. The on-gain is quite good, so this would probably work at $5 as well. I think.

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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.
Another Workshop with some freaky effect that has more or less nothing to do with the rest of the card. Don't like it that much.

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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.
So, let's assume we call the Thrift Shop mat "Trash". How would this change the card? Like... hardly? So, I think there is no use for another component. Apart from that, well... it's probably fine? Maybe this could cost $5, but I'm not sure.

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Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.
Another expensive Workshop variant. Not very good probably and not very exciting.

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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
Well, the main effect is probably ok... but with Remake and Develop around it feels sort of obsolete. The on-gain effect has nothing to do with the rest of the card, so yeah... I'm not very excited about it.

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Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.
The wording seems a bit off, but not terribly so. So what does this card do? Gain $2 actions? Gain $5 Actions late? Both doesn't seem too great. It might be fine for Duchy/Duke with decent $5 cost actions or treasures around, but otherwise it's pretty bad I suppose.

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Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
A rather interesting Lab variant that stacks quite nicely I guess. The on-buy/on-gain is interesting, since it provides filtering when you buy Chapterhouse and is a mild attack when you just gain it. The bottom part is probably not really necessary, but the top part I like.

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Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you buy this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

EDIT: Changed "When you gain this" to "When you buy this".
Ok, so either this is a weird Grand Market variant or a Victory card gainer... interesting. The on-play gains Treasure or Victory cards, the on-gain Actions... This card is probably fine, but it's quite a mess. It wants to be like everything at the same time, but I don't really see the purpose. The top part can be handy in slogs, but the bottom wants something else... So yeah, I'm missing the focus of this card. Otherwise ok I think.

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Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.
Ok, this also has the issue that the card itself doesn't do anything basically, with its mere purpose being some sort of expedient. Interesting concept, but I'm not convince it's worth it.

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Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.
I'm... confused. I really have a hard time judging this, and it's quite likely hard to balance. Wonky at best.

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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province instead.

EDIT: Added "instead" to the end of the text.
The top part feels extremely swingy (opponent gets rid of estate, gives you a Cellar or Silver, or gets a Curse) and potentially a bit political in multiplayer games. The bottom part is super strong, so all in all I don't like this very much.

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Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.
The bottom part looks a bit too strong, but otherwise fine I guess.

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Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Weak and swing I'd suppose.

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Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.
I see the purpose here, but it's still very very weak I think. I mean, when would you want to put it back really? This is so clearly clearly much worse than Herbalist for example, so I'd see me buying this card only if the +buy was absolutely necessary.

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Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.
Another mat thing... okay, this is similar to the one above, but certainly somewhat better. But well, not very exciting.

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Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.
Hm... looks fine to me.

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Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.
The IGG-Pillage merge... probably ok, but so not inventive.

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Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
Ok... +4 Cards is a bit strong for a $5 cost... so the bottom part is supposed to be a nerf? I mean yeah, maybe you don't want to buy Gold early... but probably you want to do it still? It's a bit like a reverse Hoard I guess, so I feel this is a bit strong, especially past midgame.

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Wayfarer (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one costing $1 or more. Put all the revealed cards into your hand.

When you discard this from play, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper you have in play.
So this draws 1 card plus all the Coppers/Curses on the way... and gains additional cards during clean-up. This looks like veeeery strong Copper strategy card. Draw 8 Coppers, gain 2 Provinces... I'm not sure how strong this card can really be, and how swingy it ends up to be, but it looks interesting at least.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 08:17:24 am by kn1tt3r »
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #215 on: September 10, 2013, 08:06:33 am »
+2

I think several people are incorrectly stating some cards should be an attack because of the below the line ability. On gain and on buy abilities that hurt opponents are not attacks (e.g. IGG).
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Tables

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #216 on: September 10, 2013, 10:18:17 am »
+1

There's an entry I totally omitted (again). Another card named Wayfarer, which I will add to the bottom of the ballot. I would be well chuffed if Tables and WW (and everyone else) would weigh in on it.

Oh all right.

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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #217 on: September 10, 2013, 11:03:50 am »
0

Another edit: Ring Leader should have +2 Cards when you play it. I'm fixing that now.

And so many workshops! Actually workshop itself is a bit Hinterlandsy to me, but whatever.

This caught my attention as well. Donald rejected a one-shot double workshop card because Hinterlands has precious few $4 cards you want several of. Pretty much it's just Silk Road. So all the "Gain a card costing up to $4" submissions don't really fit Hinterlands, in my opinion.

That's one of the many reasons I like Mill so much. It gains $5 cards, and there are a ton of $5 cards in Hinterlands you want a bunch of: Cartographer, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inn, Margrave, and Stables.

But wasn't on-gain Militia also dropped for being unfun?  I strongly remember reading something like that in a Secret History post, probably one of the more recent post-Guilds posts.

Yes, it was. However, comparing it to such cards in the outtakes, two things make Mill different. First, the card doesn't also attack when you play it, so the attack only happens 10 times max (barring Graverobber, etc.). Second, the on-play effect makes other players draw cards, which may very well balance it out. The main worry I have is that it can really exacerbate first-player advantage in the opening.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 11:05:32 am by LastFootnote »
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Schneau

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #218 on: September 10, 2013, 11:48:45 am »
0

Another edit: Ring Leader should have +2 Cards when you play it. I'm fixing that now.

Ring Leader probably doesn't need a line. See Noble Brigand.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #219 on: September 10, 2013, 11:54:03 am »
0

Agreed. No line. It has two on play effects, one of which is also an on buy effect.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #220 on: September 10, 2013, 12:25:19 pm »
0

Just playtested Wagon Raider. It was dominating. I think the alternative to the Curse should be less awfull, like "discard a card costing 3$ or more that is not a victory card". Gaining cards your opponents becomes a big deal after a while.

Also playtested Artefact. A double Artefact opening with Big Money after that lost against a Bridge/Oasis engine, but not by much (3 points). Maybe raise the cost to 3$? A 2/5 split is too much of an advantage otherwise, i think.

In what way was Wagon Raider dominating?  The attack is weaker than Sea Hag.  The bottom part only helps when you start buying Provinces, and even then it's just a terminal Silver.  I guess the bottom gets better if you also have +Buy.

Artefact into BM doesn't sound great.  It's strong trashing, which will shine more with engines.  Definitely think optional non-terminal trashing is too strong for $2, even with the delay.  I expect too strong for $3 as well.

Yeah, i wasn't thinking about what i wrote there, or, i was, but i was very tired... "Dominating" was certainly not the rigth word for the card as a whole. The curse choice was dominating, that's what i wanted to say... The other option was just so horrible. I think making it a stronger Cutpurse "discard an action or treasure card" would be better, but i think it doesn't really need the curse option, then.

I was talking nonsense about Artefact, too. Raising the cost does't change anything, except maybe that it's not possible to open Artefact/5$-attack. I think if you want to nerf the card, it should lose one of the options, for example the medium-use option, discard. Trashing is the main benefit it gives, but i wonder if it's necessary to make it a plain "+1 Card, +1 Action, Trash a card" to balance it.

I'll edit that post before more people read that half-sleep nonsense.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #221 on: September 10, 2013, 12:27:52 pm »
0

It's a slight nerf because you can discard junk pretty often.  Usually discarding an Estate and keeping an Estate in hand amount to the same thing.
No. It's an enormous nerf which totally changes what the card can be used for - not even just in games with Estate-trashing (which are very common). When was the last time you only wanted to play one Laboratory per turn? If you play five Laboratories, you get a ten-card hand, which typically does not contain five junk cards that you don't mind discarding.

The Unstoppable Alchemist Stack draws your deck, because each one of them is a Laboratory. If you nerfed Alchemists in this way, it would just draw your preferred five card starting hand.

With this nerf, the card is no longer for drawing, it's for filtering, and often Warehouse will just be better at filtering because it lets you see more cards.

Ehh, you may be right.  Nonetheless, I don't think piledriving Labs is great all that often, and you do often have enough junk for the number of times you'd play it in a turn that the discad doesn't hurt.  Alchemist is very different because the hope is that you topdeck those Labs every time.  You can expect to play all your Alchemists and have a huge hand, whereas Lab is much more of a support card that you only play a few of (and maybe you only have a few).

So OK, maybe it's a bigger nerf than I gave it credit for.  But I still really doubt it's as big a nerf as you are making it out to be.

Lab+discard is definitely way better than Warehouse.  Empirical evidence -- Donald X. tested it and it was way too strong for $4.  Warehouse lowers your hand size, which really is a big deal.  Lab+discard maintains your hand size, which is much better.


Another edit: Ring Leader should have +2 Cards when you play it. I'm fixing that now.

And so many workshops! Actually workshop itself is a bit Hinterlandsy to me, but whatever.

This caught my attention as well. Donald rejected a one-shot double workshop card because Hinterlands has precious few $4 cards you want several of. Pretty much it's just Silk Road. So all the "Gain a card costing up to $4" submissions don't really fit Hinterlands, in my opinion.

That's one of the many reasons I like Mill so much. It gains $5 cards, and there are a ton of $5 cards in Hinterlands you want a bunch of: Cartographer, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inn, Margrave, and Stables.

But wasn't on-gain Militia also dropped for being unfun?  I strongly remember reading something like that in a Secret History post, probably one of the more recent post-Guilds posts.

Yes, it was. However, comparing it to such cards in the outtakes, two things make Mill different. First, the card doesn't also attack when you play it, so the attack only happens 10 times max (barring Graverobber, etc.). Second, the on-play effect makes other players draw cards, which may very well balance it out. The main worry I have is that it can really exacerbate first-player advantage in the opening.

I found the quote I was thinking of.  It was in the History for Noble Brigands, as someone (Asper?) said above.

Quote
Maybe it's for the best that you'll never experience the joy of a when-gain discard-based attack just sitting there, promising that any hand you draw might be taken away, even if no-one has even bought the card yet.

The anecdote doesn't indicate that the problem was that it attacked on play.  It's just the on-gain discard that was problematic.  I imagine it to be more like IGG ("attack" on gain) than Noble Brigand (attack on buy and on play).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #222 on: September 10, 2013, 12:30:26 pm »
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Another edit: Ring Leader should have +2 Cards when you play it. I'm fixing that now.

Almost missed this hiding above the quote boxes. :P

I think I really like Ring Leader (except for the name).  My worry about it is whether it might be too slow.  But maybe it's not much slower than Spy, and it's certainly harder to chain.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #223 on: September 10, 2013, 12:30:55 pm »
0

Another edit: Ring Leader should have +2 Cards when you play it. I'm fixing that now.

Ring Leader probably doesn't need a line. See Noble Brigand.

Agreed. No line. It has two on play effects, one of which is also an on buy effect.

I seem to remember that Noble Brigand doesn't have a line because the line wouldn't fit on the card. If it wins and I mock up the card, I may omit the line. For now it stays.
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #224 on: September 10, 2013, 12:39:59 pm »
0

Another edit: Ring Leader should have +2 Cards when you play it. I'm fixing that now.

And so many workshops! Actually workshop itself is a bit Hinterlandsy to me, but whatever.

This caught my attention as well. Donald rejected a one-shot double workshop card because Hinterlands has precious few $4 cards you want several of. Pretty much it's just Silk Road. So all the "Gain a card costing up to $4" submissions don't really fit Hinterlands, in my opinion.

That's one of the many reasons I like Mill so much. It gains $5 cards, and there are a ton of $5 cards in Hinterlands you want a bunch of: Cartographer, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inn, Margrave, and Stables.

But wasn't on-gain Militia also dropped for being unfun?  I strongly remember reading something like that in a Secret History post, probably one of the more recent post-Guilds posts.

Yes, it was. However, comparing it to such cards in the outtakes, two things make Mill different. First, the card doesn't also attack when you play it, so the attack only happens 10 times max (barring Graverobber, etc.). Second, the on-play effect makes other players draw cards, which may very well balance it out. The main worry I have is that it can really exacerbate first-player advantage in the opening.

I didn't even think of first player advantage before... Imagine your 5/2 opening becomes a 3/2 because somebody else bought a Mill. Absolutely no.  :o
I think without the on-gain it's probably okay, but not a real Hinterlands card - more like Prosperity.
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