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Author Topic: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands  (Read 106527 times)

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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #175 on: September 09, 2013, 09:07:03 pm »
0

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

The above the line ability is clever. I don’t so much care for the on-buy/on-gain abilities.

This is the exact opposite thought I had.  I find below-the-line to be clever, while the top is quite boring to me.  Why do you think the top is clever?  I may be missing something.
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #176 on: September 09, 2013, 09:11:44 pm »
+1

Perhaps happens Artefact is discarded rather than gained to avoid triggering on-gain effects after the game ends?

I think that's another good reason. Imagine Feodum and revealing Trader at the end. Or revealing Trader at all, anytime. I mean, where is the card going to be after that? Will it just stay set aside for the rest of the game? That would quickly become confusing when several Artefacts were bought. Also, as mentioned, possessing a player at his reshuffle will steal all his Artefacts. Or reveal a Watchtower several turns after buying the card. Or playing a Village, then a Haggler, then a Library, having to gain a Copper... I think just discarding the card works so much better.

And it's not like you can't gain it at all. I imagine buying a Stonemason for 4$, remodeling a Copper or playing Workshops/Ironworks would work nicely with Artefact. Actually, those interactions are pretty thematic, too.
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #177 on: September 09, 2013, 09:15:03 pm »
0

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

The above the line ability is clever. I don’t so much care for the on-buy/on-gain abilities.

This is the exact opposite thought I had.  I find below-the-line to be clever, while the top is quite boring to me.  Why do you think the top is clever?  I may be missing something.

I like that it's a "draw up to X" sifter. I don't think there is one of those yet. I think the sifters really feel like Hinterlands.

I don't like the bottom because the sometimes good/sometimes bad nature seems too... artificial? I'm not sure. If it made more sense thematically, then I would be more okay with it.
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #178 on: September 09, 2013, 09:15:38 pm »
0

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

The above the line ability is clever. I don’t so much care for the on-buy/on-gain abilities.

This is the exact opposite thought I had.  I find below-the-line to be clever, while the top is quite boring to me.  Why do you think the top is clever?  I may be missing something.

The top is a sifter, fitting Hinterlands pretty well. A bit like Oasis, just with a variable amount of cards. The fact that the number of cards changes makes it interesting and strategic. I'm not so much a fan of the lower part, either.

Edit: Ninja'd.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #179 on: September 09, 2013, 09:30:24 pm »
+2


Video. I missed some stuff - this WAS the first time I had looked at the things.

Biggest overall note this week: many cards didn't feel Hinterlandsy. Also, several of them had on-buy or on-gain or whatever which seemed tacked-on just to make them fit, but I don't like that. And so many workshops! Actually workshop itself is a bit Hinterlandsy to me, but whatever.

Tables

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #180 on: September 09, 2013, 09:38:48 pm »
0

Biggest overall note this week: many cards didn't feel Hinterlandsy. Also, several of them had on-buy or on-gain or whatever which seemed tacked-on just to make them fit, but I don't like that. And so many workshops! Actually workshop itself is a bit Hinterlandsy to me, but whatever.

I absolutely second this opinion. The high quantity of workshops can't really be held against the cards themselves, it's not like the designers could have expected there to be lots of workshop variants in there. But the first bits certainly ring true: Hinterlands is a bit of a hodge-pot, but the majority of the on-buy/gain effects fit directly with the card, or are the main purpose of the card. Here, lots of cards have big and somewhat interesting on-play effects, but then also big and totally different on-gain effects that don't really relate.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #181 on: September 09, 2013, 09:45:39 pm »
+3

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

The above the line ability is clever. I don’t so much care for the on-buy/on-gain abilities.

Personally, I like the on-buy/on-gain abilities as an effect, but... well. I'm not sure this is a valid concern, being as this is an expansion by and for f.ds people who understand rule interactions inside and out. However:

A card like this could never be printed in official Dominion. Too many casual players (I presume) don't pay enough attention to the timing difference between "buying" and "gaining" to be able to easily understand what's supposed to happen when this card is played. In official Dominion, the fact that on-buy effects trigger before on-gain effects at least requires a two-card combo to be relevant. With a card like this, a lot of people would misinterpret the text or argue about what's supposed to happen and have to read the FAQ even to just use the card once.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #182 on: September 09, 2013, 09:48:44 pm »
+1

In general I *think* I don't like it when the main action and the on-gain/buy are completely disconnected.  But that may be incorrect.  I think usually the on-gain/buy needs to be powerful or interesting.  Not always, but usually.  And then the regular action should be relatively simple, maybe even vanilla, or else it overshadows the other effect.

I don't know, maybe it's all just arbitrary.  Some things just click and others don't. :P
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #183 on: September 09, 2013, 09:50:30 pm »
+1

A card like this could never be printed in official Dominion. Too many casual players (I presume) don't pay enough attention to the timing difference between "buying" and "gaining" to be able to easily understand what's supposed to happen when this card is played. In official Dominion, the fact that on-buy effects trigger before on-gain effects at least requires a two-card combo to be relevant. With a card like this, a lot of people would misinterpret the text or argue about what's supposed to happen and have to read the FAQ even to just use the card once.

I think this is part of what bothered me and made it seem like an artificially clever effect.
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #184 on: September 09, 2013, 09:52:03 pm »
0

Quote
Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
I submitted: "$4, +2 cards, +1 action, discard a card" but asked LFN to pull it after he pointed out that DXV had already tested it and found it too strong. This is quite a lot stronger.

Oh, yeah, I remember reading that. I am now thinking that yes, Consulate needs to be at $5 or lose the +1 Action.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #185 on: September 09, 2013, 09:52:29 pm »
0

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

The above the line ability is clever. I don’t so much care for the on-buy/on-gain abilities.

Personally, I like the on-buy/on-gain abilities as an effect, but... well. I'm not sure this is a valid concern, being as this is an expansion by and for f.ds people who understand rule interactions inside and out. However:

A card like this could never be printed in official Dominion. Too many casual players (I presume) don't pay enough attention to the timing difference between "buying" and "gaining" to be able to easily understand what's supposed to happen when this card is played. In official Dominion, the fact that on-buy effects trigger before on-gain effects at least requires a two-card combo to be relevant. With a card like this, a lot of people would misinterpret the text or argue about what's supposed to happen and have to read the FAQ even to just use the card once.

I think it's a valid concern.  It briefly occurred to me when I was going through the cards but I dismissed it.  It probably matters more than I gave it credit for.  Absolutely it could be confusing to a lot of people.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #186 on: September 09, 2013, 09:53:24 pm »
0

Watching WW's video, I realised I might have parsed Courier (A) incorrectly, and I'm pretty confident WW parsed it incorrectly. In retrospect it should be: "Gain a card costing ($1 per card discarded)" while I interpreted it as "(Gain a card costing $1) per card discarded." Either way needs a wording tweak, but I'm gonna have to reconsider it now...
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #187 on: September 09, 2013, 09:54:06 pm »
+1

Watching WW's video, I realised I might have parsed Courier (A) incorrectly, and I'm pretty confident WW parsed it incorrectly. In retrospect it should be: "Gain a card costing ($1 per card discarded)" while I interpreted it as "(Gain a card costing $1) per card discarded." Either way needs a wording tweak, but I'm gonna have to reconsider it now...

Gain all the Poor Houses!
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #188 on: September 09, 2013, 09:58:09 pm »
+1

Watching WW's video, I realised I might have parsed Courier (A) incorrectly, and I'm pretty confident WW parsed it incorrectly. In retrospect it should be: "Gain a card costing ($1 per card discarded)" while I interpreted it as "(Gain a card costing $1) per card discarded." Either way needs a wording tweak, but I'm gonna have to reconsider it now...

Gain all the Poor Houses!



Y u no image?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #189 on: September 09, 2013, 10:01:02 pm »
0

You should go watch me rip into the card as a result of my misparsing ::). Explaining why the reaction won't trigger because there's normally nothing to gain etc.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #190 on: September 09, 2013, 10:06:46 pm »
+1

In general I *think* I don't like it when the main action and the on-gain/buy are completely disconnected.  But that may be incorrect.

Well, let's see.

Mint:
Mild synergy between on-buy and on-play: trashing your Coppers helps you line Mint up with your (Fool's) Gold and Platinum. On the other hand, antisynergy in that you can't just go trashing your Treasures willy-nilly on buy; Mint needs some Treasure in the deck to work at all. Interestingly, the on-play and on-buy were designed separately and combined on a single card only when Donald X realized that Mint without Treasure-trashing was underpowered and Mountebank with it was overpowered.

Noble Brigand:
On-buy and on-play are the same effect.

Farmland:
Weak synergy: the fact that it's a weak dead card (weaker than Duchy but more expensive) gives you incentive to Farmland your Farmlands that you wouldn't have if the card that had that on-buy effect was one you actually wanted.

Nomad Camp:
Mild synergy, maybe? I dunno.

Cache:
Strong synergy. The whole point of this card is to be cheap Gold with an on-gain penalty; the on-gain penalty is diluting your Gold with Copper.

Embassy:
No particular synergy, I guess.

Ill-Gotten Gains:
Strong synergy. On-gain depletes two piles at the same time; on-play facilitates a Duchy rush.

Inn:
Strong synergy. On-gain gives you a deck with a lot of Action cards concentrated in one place; on-play gives you the +Actions to play them.

Mandarin:
Similar effects, but I'm not sure how they synergize.

Border Village:
Pretty strong synergy: If you want villages, you probably want a bunch of good $5 terminals as well.

Death Cart:
Strong synergy: on-play gives you incentive to trash Action cards; on-gain gives you Action cards you want to trash.

Not going to worry about overpay on-buy effects right now.
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #191 on: September 09, 2013, 10:09:07 pm »
0

It's funny, i've read several opinions about my card now. At least one was saying it was too weak, at least another one it was too strong. Personally, i didn't go into this contest without playtesting, and have come to believe it is neither.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #192 on: September 09, 2013, 10:28:04 pm »
0

Some more notes:

Quote
    Quagmire
    Types: Victory
    Cost: $3
    Worth 1 VP.
    When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.
Okay, this has been noted. But actually, the game is probably turn 1 buy this, trash 3 province; If opponent buys one, turn 2, buy this, trash 3 province. If not, still do that, then win game as soon as you can buy 3rd of these, unless opponent can get duchy first (unlikely). Best way to combat this is open 5/2. Most games ending around turn 3.

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.
While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Buying this multiple times in a turn does reduce costs each time.
So, the issue with this is that it's absolutely terrible until you hit a critical mass, where it just wins the game. Say it with me - terribroken.

Quote
Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.
When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
Someone said that this is really swingy and gave the example of a 5/2 discarding to draw 8 on turn 3. Well, if you are doing that (and you need it with 4 coppers to do so...), then you are drawing to exactly 5 copper and 3 estates (with 2 coppers left in the draw pile) on turn 3 - doesn't seem broken to me at all, from that...

Quote
Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.
When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
So, there was a comment about how cache is gold with 2 coppers, and what gives? Well, you have to have a green card around rather than the 2nd copper... still, should probably cost a little more than this, then, as you can re-use it, defend, do more than one at a time, the victory isn't always a drawback... I would really try to make sure it gets to stay at 4, because it's no fun at 5. But as cache isn't super strong, this is delayed, and there are drawbacks, I think this could work there.

Quote
    Wagon Raider
    Types: Action – Attack
    Cost: $4
    Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.
    While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province.

People keep talking about the top like it's incredibly ridiculously strong, but even if you ALWAYS take the curse (and having the option not to means it can't be as bad for your opponents as that), it isn't as good as Sea Hag.
Okay, there is the bottom.

Quote
Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.
When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.
People talk about this like it is insanely powerful, but I don't get it. You only get the attack one time. You only get the attack *one time*. Now, you do get it when you want, but it is a copper - aren't junking attacks generally considered worse than discard, even targeted? I dunno, doesn't seem better than pillage to me, and nobody cries about that. Well, let's look at it; happens right away vs later... that's a little better here, but on the other hand, you usually don't know when to time it on the opponent anyway. 4 vs 5... this is huge here. Treasure vs terminal action... well, this is good here. But. Copper vs one-shot gaining two spoils... waaaaay better for the pillage. I mean, two spoils is enough to just get pillage for to start with (though that wouldn't be stellar), plus the terminal only gets played/stuck in your hand once, this clogs you forevermore.
I don't know that I like this effect like here, but it's not at all obviously broken here.

Quote
Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
The more I think about this, the more I think it is just pretty weak. Not sure it isn't terribroken, but don't think it can be really strong. Here's the deal: let's say I buy a 6 or 7-cost. Okay, I gain a duchy. Now, would I want the duchy, straight up? Would I add duchy to my deck for free, if given the choice? Well, I think for most of the game the answer is no. But, you say, the draw helped me get to have enough money to buy such an expensive card, no? Well, for $1 less, smithy got you almost as far - and most other $5 smithy variants have some other boon. And if I'm going for an engine, the duchy gain is particularly worse. Buying anything 3-5 is even much worse - you have to gain an estate. That is so bad, I don't know - maybe you just don't even buy. Of course, there is some upside, too, endgames mostly, or slogs, but this sort of anti-synergizes with itself, and I sort think almost any other 5-cost smithy is better.

eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #193 on: September 09, 2013, 11:18:22 pm »
0

Some more notes:

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.
While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Buying this multiple times in a turn does reduce costs each time.
So, the issue with this is that it's absolutely terrible until you hit a critical mass, where it just wins the game. Say it with me - terribroken.

Quote
Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
The more I think about this, the more I think it is just pretty weak. Not sure it isn't terribroken, but don't think it can be really strong. Here's the deal: let's say I buy a 6 or 7-cost. Okay, I gain a duchy. Now, would I want the duchy, straight up? Would I add duchy to my deck for free, if given the choice? Well, I think for most of the game the answer is no. But, you say, the draw helped me get to have enough money to buy such an expensive card, no? Well, for $1 less, smithy got you almost as far - and most other $5 smithy variants have some other boon. And if I'm going for an engine, the duchy gain is particularly worse. Buying anything 3-5 is even much worse - you have to gain an estate. That is so bad, I don't know - maybe you just don't even buy. Of course, there is some upside, too, endgames mostly, or slogs, but this sort of anti-synergizes with itself, and I sort think almost any other 5-cost smithy is better.

Do you think Pilgrimage is completely broken, or can it be fixed with tweaks to the vanilla bonuses?

I agree on the Used Land Salesman.  I think the below-the-line functions as an adequate penalty.  Not sure if it's actually weak, but it definitely does not look too strong to me.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #194 on: September 09, 2013, 11:33:59 pm »
+1

Three more corrections:

Wagon Raider is apparently supposed to gain you a Province instead of a Gold. The original PM didn't have "instead", but I'm updating it anyway.

There's an entry I totally omitted (again). Another card named Wayfarer, which I will add to the bottom of the ballot. I would be well chuffed if Tables and WW (and everyone else) would weigh in on it.

Finally, Barn's on-gain clause has become on-buy to avoid piling issues.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 11:37:28 pm by LastFootnote »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #195 on: September 09, 2013, 11:43:21 pm »
0

And so many workshops! Actually workshop itself is a bit Hinterlandsy to me, but whatever.

This caught my attention as well. Donald rejected a one-shot double workshop card because Hinterlands has precious few $4 cards you want several of. Pretty much it's just Silk Road. So all the "Gain a card costing up to $4" submissions don't really fit Hinterlands, in my opinion.

That's one of the many reasons I like Mill so much. It gains $5 cards, and there are a ton of $5 cards in Hinterlands you want a bunch of: Cartographer, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inn, Margrave, and Stables.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #196 on: September 09, 2013, 11:55:06 pm »
0

And so many workshops! Actually workshop itself is a bit Hinterlandsy to me, but whatever.

This caught my attention as well. Donald rejected a one-shot double workshop card because Hinterlands has precious few $4 cards you want several of. Pretty much it's just Silk Road. So all the "Gain a card costing up to $4" submissions don't really fit Hinterlands, in my opinion.

That's one of the many reasons I like Mill so much. It gains $5 cards, and there are a ton of $5 cards in Hinterlands you want a bunch of: Cartographer, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inn, Margrave, and Stables.

But wasn't on-gain Militia also dropped for being unfun?  I strongly remember reading something like that in a Secret History post, probably one of the more recent post-Guilds posts.



On the newly added Wayfarer:


Quote
Wayfarer (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one costing $1 or more. Put all the revealed cards into your hand.

When you discard this from play, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper you have in play.

This usually just draws Copper (plus one of something else).  In some games it will also draw Curses and Ruins and non-Supply cards like prizes, and you can also combo with cost reduction.  Then it gains a card based on the Copper that you were hopefully able to pull up.  Seems fairly swingy -- if you draw a lot of Copper then Wayfarer can gain some decent cards.  If you whiff completely and get no Coppers, you gain another Copper.  OK, that's sort of self-synergistic.

Neat idea.  Maybe a little too luck-driven for my taste, but it's probably not too hard to mitigate that luck.  Hmm.
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Archetype

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #197 on: September 10, 2013, 12:07:08 am »
+2

Alright, I'll do this.

I'm judging by the card's idea, since the cost can be change post-contest, but the idea can't. I'll als o be looking for how it relates to Hinterlands. I apologize in advance if I bash your card. Please don't take it personally!

Disclaimer: One of these cards is mine.

Now go! Scroll down to your card!


Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.
[/quote]
I like Apprentice, but I don't like this. Apprentice works because the card is trashed, but since the card stays in your deck, I can see a viable strategy being to just piledrive these. You could argue that this is different from Apprentice since its restricted to just actions, but not different enough for me. Also, has nothing to do with Hinterlands.

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Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
That bolded part really is the card's problem. It'll take too long to resolve and has very little affect overall, I feel. The on-buy seems very tacked on and I'm not really sure what the card is trying to accomplish.

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Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.
The idea isn't novel, but it could work.  The on-buy way to activate it is unique, but the top part just kills it. I'd never buy it for the effect if I was trying for an engine, and if I was trying for the rush I'd just go hardcore on these. Needs a lot of tweaks.

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Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.
Hah! I like this one! A bit goofy, but unique! I can see the connection to the theme and its effect, the on-buy doesn't seem tacked on. Cool idea!

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Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Buying this multiple times in a turn does reduce costs each time.
Hm. A bit clunky with the whole gain then reduce, but I could see it working. Needs a few tweaks.

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Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
I feel it's too similar to Warehouse to be included in the set. The Hinterland relation is there, but its an obvious knock-off of Embassy. Which may not be a bad idea.

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Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.
Needs to say 'Besides Trade Agreement'. It's a cool idea, but I don't know if others will like it.

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Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.
An on-buy Mine. That's cool! The action makes sense and but seems difficult to use well. I'd almost say it should cost $4 to use the action portion to it's full potential, but that may make the on-buy too good.

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Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.
Really shouldn't be an Action. The effect is nice, but the synergy seems a bit too obvious. Needs to have 2 VP cards in hand to be worth the cost, and I don't see that happening until late game. And at that point you'd rather grab Duchies. Maybe it'd work at a lower cost?

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Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.
So an improved Celler on top and a pseudo Border Village down below. It's alright. The two effects have no real relation as far as I can tell, but I like the top. I also don't know how often you'd have a card in your hand that you'd want to gain another copy of at the time of gaining this (especially during the buy phase. Only a couple of cases when you'd have a card in your hand that went unplayed that you'd want to duplicate).

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Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.
*yawn* I've seen it before. It needs +1 Card and then a bump up $2 to be worth the purchase. And even then, I don't know if I'd buy it in most games.

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Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).
So a delayed gaining. I almost decided that this should belong in Seaside, but it seems like it'd work good here too. That 'Trash it' clause makes me suspect it's too powerful since that's what Rats does, but at a much greater cost (both monetary and result of playing it). And this also has that flexibility of those other options.

I love the bottom, but the top needs to be change I think.

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Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.
Huh. Cool. A pure attack card that works both when playing in gaining like Noble Brigand. I'd rather it give a bonus too, but that may need to be a change made if it wins.

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River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.
On buy cost reducer. Neat-o! I see the interaction between effect and on-buy and the card seems like one I'd normally buy not only because on the 2VP. With lots of buys, this could be deadly, which I like.

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Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.
Sorry, but I don't think this can work. I've tried out this idea in various forms, and I've found you need an upperlimit for gaining rather than 'not a Victory card'. Plus I don't know if I'd want to discard my King's Court to gain a copy of it. The on-gain looks fun, so kudos for that!

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Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.
There was a card last contest that is very similar to this and I like it a lot better. Not much else to say.

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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.
Name's weird, but I like to effect. May need some tweaking, but there is something there and I like it.

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Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.
Well that's cool. Would I buy a bunch of coppers to topdeck some Silvers? I think yes. Synergy between effect and on-gain is there and the relation to Hinterlands is easily seen (Silver and gaining things). Fun ca!

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
Oh man I've got to hurry along. Um, I don't really like it. Seems a bit too messy and cumbersome to use IRL.

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Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.
And I thought Secret Chamber was annoying! haha, um. Yeah. Allows you to setup a better next hand the more cards you buy. Cool idea, but seems like it'd take a while to carry out.

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Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.
Nice and simple. Maybe a bit too simple. It has that funky 'This doesn't cost a buy', which is interesting on a Victory card. But I still like it alright.

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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, eachthoer player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
Hah! I have a feeling this could be eHalc's purely from the pun. Puts a nice spin on the 'Gain a card costing up to $5' idea. The bottom part obvious synergizes, but I feel like it could degrade into to Mill, you draw a card, gain a Mill, you discard a card, until the pile is empty. But maybe that is what the created intended for it to do. But I do like it.

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
The top card seems O.K. powerwise. The bottom part is interesting, but I'd probably only use it to pick up Duchy's. Which may not be too terrible. So it could work.


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Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.
I could never see myself using the top part. It simply seems to weak. The bottom part, however, seems like it could work, but may be too powerful.

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Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.
nt
Woah. Too much for me. Intended to lose its use later in the game, but has a weird way of doing it. But maybe it's not tooo bad. Overall cool card, but has a lot going on.

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Wayfarer
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to its cost in coins.
Love this on-gain! Sort of like a cheaper but delayed Salvager. The top may need some changes.

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Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.
Boring lab top part. The real meat is at the bottom. But I can see straight to the bone- this just sets up half of your next hand? That's nice, but I wish the top part was smoother.

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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
Nope. Sorry. Too swingy and messes up how curses work.

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Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.
I like this quite a bit. Its intended to pile out this and the Reinforcement pile and then something else. I like the concept of it a lot.

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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.
Nope. Sorry. Same thing as Safe House. Warps the game too much to my liking and is too OP at any cost, I'm afraid.

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Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.
Woah. This is quite nifty. Wants you to stock up on these to get them discarded, but buying them activates opponent's Pastures. Love the concept and how it synergizes.


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Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.
$4 Workshop with a scout affect on-gain. I'd probably never ever buy it, so it's a no-go from me.

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Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from their hand.
I don't like the (including you) part. The gaining this is cool, but probably OP.

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Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.
Has no relation to Hinterlands in my mind and could probably cost $2 if you knock off the last sentence, which you should anyways.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

EDIT: Changed from "when you gain a card" to "when you buy a card".
Hm. Like a Haggler, but with no bonus. I think this is too similar to Haggler to exist, sadly.

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Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.
Sage does it better and simpler.

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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.
Neat-o and can toy with the kingdom piles. I like goofy cards that aren't game breaking, but are fun. And this looks fun. I don however think the card isn't good for this contest since the top part looks tacked on.

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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.
ooooooo I like it! A community pool of cards where you grab what you need. Optimal way to play it is one after another to immediately gain that card you grabbed earlier, but even then you have to leave a card for the next player. And since the stockpile continually grows because of the on gain, it's not going to be just one card on the mat constantly swapped out. I like it!
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Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.
Bottom or top is tacked on. I can't tell. And even then, I don't know how much I like it.

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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
Similar to Develop, but synergizes with itself by increasing your handsize and action limit. I'd almost wish it'd cost $4 to allow you to trash Silvers to gain Constructs and gain that sweet bonus because as it stands you need to trash Estates or $2 cards bought earlier. Overall, I like the concept.

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Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.
uuuh no comment. I honestly don't know what to say besides it could run into the problem of Chancelloring your deck.

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Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
Clever little card. That top and bottom part rocks my socks when placed together and the separation of buy/gain is so unique. Looks fun!

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Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.
Lots going on. A bit too much for me that I can't really review it. Plus, I tend to like cards on the simpler spectrum.

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Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.
Now this is what I'm talking about. Self-balances with that continual cost influx and the top goes right along with the on-gain effect. My favorite of the 'gain this for an immediate buy'.

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Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costing less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.
Curse-type is a bad idea.

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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province.
Nope, sorry. Too swingy.

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Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.
Now this is cool. Sort of Walled Village-y with that first part, but that second part is intriguing too. Actually, it makes me think of what Walled Village should have been. Nice card!

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Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Too swingy for my taste. Should be one player that discards (to the left?) and even then tracking could be an issue.

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Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.
Hm. I wish this could be done a bit better. I like the idea of a buy when you need it, but this seems a bit too uncomfortable (for lack of a better word) by having it be placed into your next hand. I like the concept, however.

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Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.
Quite like this one. It's similar to the last one, but executed a bit better. By having it stay out of your deck until you need it, it doesn't have that awkward moment that Courier could have of all cards in hand being Courier and you can really get that buy when you need it. I really really love the concept, but I'd want it to cost $2 or give it a small boost at $3. Overall, looks like a really elegant card with some interesting tactical decisions.

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Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.
Almost needs that Rats thing of having 20 copies. But even then, this doesn't really seem Hinterlands-y and could grow in power too quickly.


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Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.
It's Pillage but without the Spoils gaining and leaves you with a Copper instead. Plus it doesn't cost an action. Naw, it's overpowered at $4 and can't work at $5 because of Pillage.

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Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
[/quote]
Good for lategame, but I wouldn't buy it early game. But man, +4 Cards is pretty good early. This actually makes it a bit tough in my mind, especially since the Victory card gain is mandatory. Nice card with an interesting choice.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #198 on: September 10, 2013, 12:07:42 am »
+1

I guess maybe the reason behind the workshop love is because it's one of the few basic card-types that's not really present in Hinterlands? Haggler is the closest to that slot mechanically, but feels somewhat different, even if it isn't per se.

Also, trying to meld on-plays with on-gains/buys is hard; a $4 or less workshop variant can always use it's on-play to provide a terminal version of it's on-gain (by gaining a copy of itself). Given that a lot of people (including me) thought of the on-gain effect first and tried to design a card around it, the appeal of "let people do the cool on-gain thing more" should be obvious.

Really, this contest has made me realize how difficult the Hinterlands design-space is to work in; leaving aside rules issues (and note that we've already had several submitted cards reveal themselves as having major rules problems as written) it's interesting to note how many of the ideas submitted have clear parallels with rejected cards from the Hinterlands Secret History. We also seem to have a lot fewer "wacky" submissions in this contest than the Prosperity contest (by which I mean cards that have somewhat strange effects, even leaving the workshop-variants aside, it seems we have a lot more vanillaesque cards).
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #199 on: September 10, 2013, 12:18:27 am »
0

But wasn't on-gain Militia also dropped for being unfun?  I strongly remember reading something like that in a Secret History post, probably one of the more recent post-Guilds posts.

Yup, i read that too. and i absolutely believe it. I think it was in an article about Noble Brigand.


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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.
While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province instead.

So, now this has become a Witch with a Thief-bane, and a conditional +2$... Seeing it like this, i think it's... Okay. I guess it's one of the cards that will be at the bottom end of the voting, though it's not actually that bad. I think it's one of those cards that had more thought flow in them than you see.


Now go! Scroll down to your card!

+1 for this alone, even though you didn't tell everyone to vote for my card (which you obviously should have).
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