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Author Topic: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands  (Read 106049 times)

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LastFootnote

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Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« on: September 02, 2013, 11:11:56 pm »
+8

The second contest is to design a card that would fit well in Hinterlands. I'll just repost all the rules and things here so that people don't have to hunt around for them.

Submission Rules

• Submit no more than one card per challenge.
• You are not obligated to submit a card for every challenge.
• Submit your card to me via this forum's messaging system.  Submissions made after each week's deadline cannot be accepted.
• Each card you submit must have a name, a cost, a list of types, and the exact wording that should appear on the card.  Also include a brief description of any special design considerations (e.g., Stash having a unique back), but do NOT include any other information, such as strategic commentary or examples about it would play.
• Unlike the previous set design contest, the name you give your card will appear on the ballot. If multiple cards with the same name are submitted, I will differentiate them with letters in a randomly chosen order, e.g. [Card Name] A, [Card Name] B, etc. Cards themselves will likewise be listed in a random order on the ballot.
• I will accept revisions to your contest entries provided they are submitted to me before the deadline.  If you submit a revision to an entry you have previously submitted to me, resubmit your revised card(s) in their entirety.  That is, don't tell me "Oh, can you make that +2 Cards say +3 Cards instead?"  Just resubmit the full card.
• Only submit cards that are your own design.
• You may submit cards that have been previously posted here in this forum, including those that have been refined by the community as a whole, provided you can still claim that the central conceit of the card -- and the majority of its final version -- is yours.
• A single card might conceivably qualify for multiple challenges within this series. If your card doesn't win the first challenge you submit it to, you may submit it for any and all future challenges (until it wins), provided the card fits those challenges. This is particularly pertinent for cards that don't win the first of two slots for a large expansion, although depending on which card does win, your card may not qualify for the second challenge.
• Do not disclose your submissions publicly, either in this thread or elsewhere!

For this Treasure Chest set, you may not submit cards that combine certain mechanics from multiple expansions. The idea is that you could simply slot the cards into their respective sets without needing components or rules specific to another set. Specifically:

• Duration cards may only be submitted as candidates for a Seaside slot.
• Potion-cost cards may only be submitted as candidates for the Alchemy slot.
• Cards that use VP tokens or cost $7 or more may only be submitted as candidates for a Prosperity slot.
• Cards that use Coin tokens and cards that use overpay may only be submitted as candidates for the Guilds slot.
• Cards that use Ruins (Looters) and cards that use Spoils may only be submitted as candidates for a Dark Ages slot.

Many mechanics are fair game for any submission. The following is an incomplete list.

• Victory/Action and Victory/Treasure hybrid cards.
• Cards that allow you to choose an ability from a list.
• Cards with on-buy, would-gain, on-gain, and on-trash abilities.

I will be putting some constraints on the set as a whole.

• No more than one Victory card (ideally an Intrigue or Hinterlands card).
• No more than one Treasure card (ideally a Prosperity card).
• The raw number of cards (including randomizers) must not exceed 150.



Challenge #2 : Hinterlands

Design a Kingdom card that would fit into the Hinterlands expansion. Ideally such a card will have one or more of the following qualities:

• Does something when you buy or gain it.
• Does something when you buy or gain another card.
- Lets you deal with having a large deck or increases the size of your deck.
- Cares about Victory cards.

The bullet points (•) are the set's major themes, and the hyphens (-) are the set's minor themes.

I'll talk a bit here about point #3: enables a large deck. You may have noticed that Hinterlands cards aren't geared around having a small, tightly run deck. In fact, the only Hinterlands card that is actually designed to shrink your deck is Spice Merchant. Perhaps it will be easiest to explain this with some examples.

• Hinterlands has a ton of filtering cards which allow you to cycle through your chaff to your good cards: Oasis, Oracle, Jack of all Trades, Cartographer, Embassy, Inn, Margrave, and Stables.
• Many Hinterlands cards improve your deck by allowing you to gain more good cards quickly, rather than removing bad cards: Duchess, Develop, Trader, Haggler, Border Village.
• Cache pushes filtering by increasing the variance of your deck.
• Scheme lets you play your key cards more often even when you're not drawing your entire deck.

You get the idea. Please keep this in mind when designing your Hinterlands cards. It may help them feel more Hinterlands-y.

The deadline for this week's challenge is Monday, September 9, 2013 at 8am CDT.

If you have any questions, please post them here or send me a private message and I will endeavor to answer them in a timely manner. Good luck!

Ballot
Results
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 06:16:02 pm by LastFootnote »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2013, 11:42:46 pm »
0

I have ideas pretty much set for some other expansions, but nothing for Hinterlands.

Maybe I will submit something a bit crazy, the balance of which I have absolutely no clue.

I hope to see some interesting card names with exotic flair.
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mail-mi

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2013, 11:58:04 pm »
0

/tag
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2013, 11:59:03 pm »
+2

• Does something when you buy or gain it.
• Does something when you buy or gain another card.
- Lets you deal with having a large deck or increases the size of your deck.
- Cares about Victory cards.

The bullet points (•) are the set's major themes, and the hyphens (-) are the set's minor themes.

Another minor theme of Hinterlands is "not just Actions"—it's got three Victory cards and three Treasure cards, one of each of which is also a Reaction; there are more Reaction kingdom cards in Hinterlands than any other expansion. Is this also something people should take into account?
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Aidan Millow

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2013, 12:19:08 am »
0

Well, I have a card name and a concept that I like. Now I just need to make it fit with the expansion themes...
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2013, 12:28:56 am »
0

tag
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2013, 12:36:00 am »
0

Yup, submitted.  It started out as something crazy, but I have convinced myself that it is a decent concept.  Still kind of crazy.

Here are some card names that I did not use which I think fit Hinterlands pretty well:

Monastery
Nomadic Monk (or some variation of this; I like it because airbenders)
Rock Garden
Emir
Sultan
Vizier (especially good if there is interaction with the player to your left)
Palanquin
Satrapy (especially good for a Victory card)
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ConMan

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 12:43:20 am »
+2

And another minor theme - Icebergs. By which I mean cards that are simple, maybe even vanilla, "above the line", but have a lot more going on "below the line" in terms of in-play or when-buy/gain or Reaction effects. This kind of ties in to the plan for Hinterlands to have been the third standalone set.

Also, Iceberg would be a great Victory-Reaction card.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 12:47:41 am »
0

And another minor theme - Icebergs. By which I mean cards that are simple, maybe even vanilla, "above the line", but have a lot more going on "below the line" in terms of in-play or when-buy/gain or Reaction effects. This kind of ties in to the plan for Hinterlands to have been the third standalone set.

Also, Iceberg would be a great Victory-Reaction card.

Nice terminology!  Hopefully Iceberg would synergize with Nomadic Monk.  Or should it anti-synergize?
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2013, 12:48:49 am »
0

Yup, submitted.  It started out as something crazy, but I have convinced myself that it is a decent concept.  Still kind of crazy.

Here are some card names that I did not use which I think fit Hinterlands pretty well:

Monastery
Nomadic Monk (or some variation of this; I like it because airbenders)
Rock Garden
Emir
Sultan
Vizier (especially good if there is interaction with the player to your left)
Palanquin
Satrapy (especially good for a Victory card)

I always thought Rock Garden would be a great name for a Victory card that cared how many Treasures you had in your deck. And then they named that card Feodum  :P
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ConMan

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 01:47:11 am »
0

And another minor theme - Icebergs. By which I mean cards that are simple, maybe even vanilla, "above the line", but have a lot more going on "below the line" in terms of in-play or when-buy/gain or Reaction effects. This kind of ties in to the plan for Hinterlands to have been the third standalone set.

Also, Iceberg would be a great Victory-Reaction card.

Nice terminology!  Hopefully Iceberg would synergize with Nomadic Monk.  Or should it anti-synergize?
Are you thinking that the Monk would cross the Iceberg, or be impeded by it? I think it would be better for Iceberg to protect against Pirate Ship and Ghost Ship.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2013, 02:28:32 am »
0

And another minor theme - Icebergs. By which I mean cards that are simple, maybe even vanilla, "above the line", but have a lot more going on "below the line" in terms of in-play or when-buy/gain or Reaction effects. This kind of ties in to the plan for Hinterlands to have been the third standalone set.

Also, Iceberg would be a great Victory-Reaction card.

Nice terminology!  Hopefully Iceberg would synergize with Nomadic Monk.  Or should it anti-synergize?
Are you thinking that the Monk would cross the Iceberg, or be impeded by it? I think it would be better for Iceberg to protect against Pirate Ship and Ghost Ship.

It's an Avatar: The Last Airbender reference. :P
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2013, 06:17:47 am »
+2

In all of these contest, can we have one extra voting stage of like 5? I want to playtest before I vote, but 40 cards is way too much for that.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2013, 07:06:20 am »
0

LastFootnote - you forgot to reserve posts for the cards and results! :( :(
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2013, 08:13:27 am »
0

Yup, submitted.  It started out as something crazy, but I have convinced myself that it is a decent concept.  Still kind of crazy.

Here are some card names that I did not use which I think fit Hinterlands pretty well:

Monastery
Nomadic Monk (or some variation of this; I like it because airbenders)
Rock Garden
Emir
Sultan
Vizier (especially good if there is interaction with the player to your left)
Palanquin
Satrapy (especially good for a Victory card)

I have some unused names that I could share, but I'm worried about posting the name someone else used.  I really like Wayfarer as a name.  Vagabond is sort of similar.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2013, 09:25:17 am »
+7

I decided that I would share a little bit of unsolicited advice about making cards.  I'm surely no expert, and other here are welcome to disagree, share their advice, and post edge cases.

First, your card should have a concise idea in it.  As you were reading through the Prosperity submissions, you may have noticed yourself having to strain at times to put together all of the details of a card, or having to reread it several times to parse everything.  Ideally, you would avoid that as much as possible, especially if you are looking for votes in a contest where it takes over an hour to go through the full list of submissions.  You want someone to read your card and immediately be intrigued, not just grow impatient and move on.  It can take a lot of thought about "what is the main point of this card?"  or "what is this card trying to do, and is there a cleaner way of reaching that goal?".  In that last question, start out by stating your goal in the broadest and most abstract terms appropriate, rather than pinning your concept to a particular mechanic from the start.  And once you are able to boil that idea down to its essence, try not to decorate it with too many distracting bells or whistles.

I think the latter was particularly difficult in the Prosperity contest since you may have found a simple concept that you loved, but was only worth costing $3, so you tried to buff it up by any means to reach $6 or $7.  Those higher price points are really hard to balance and judge, in part because we have so little experience with them, and also because that high price point can make them inherently swingy:  one player gets a lucky early spike to afford one, and then the card was made so grossly powerful to justify the price tag that now he is at a huge advantage for that lucky spike.

Hinterlands cards sometimes gets a bad rap for the tops and bottoms just being tacked on.  But consider, say, Inn.  Surely the essential idea is to stack the upcoming deck in your favor.  This could have been implemented in different ways (e.g. Scheme or Herald), but with Inn Donald chose to shuffle Actions into your deck.  That's probably too strong or too clunky to be an on-play effect, so Donald made it an on-gain.  Then what should the top effect be?  Well, the on-gain is mostly good with a deck which relies on Actions.  Decks which rely on Actions usually want a village.  So let's make Inn a village!  Cool, every set wants a village or two.  Should it just be plain old village?  Let's spice that up a little at least.  Well, this set has something of a filtering theme, and a bit of filtering can be about as good as drawing a single card.  It helps to deal with those few non Actions left in your deck when you shuffle in Inn.

As for what makes that "main point" of the card compelling, well that depends a lot on the person.  Personally, I want something which is not just a novel idea, but which encourages a novel strategy.  Something that makes games with that card have a unique if subtly different flavor.  I'd like the card to be usable in a wide range of boards and stategies, though not necessarily all, but not be the new King's Court or Rebuild which just steals the show.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2013, 09:29:19 am »
+8

Voting Rules

• I will not accept votes until Wednesday, September 11, 2013 at 8am CDT. There are two reasons for this. First, I've almost certainly made some mistakes and I want the card authors to have time to contact me so I can make fixes. Second, I want everybody to have the chance to critique and discuss the cards for a few days.
• The deadline for turning in your ballots is Monday, September 16, 2013 at 8am CDT.
• We are using an approval voting system. That means you can vote for as many of the cards as you like, but only once for each card. Feel free to vote for your own card if you submitted one. When you send in your ballot, simply list the cards you'd like to vote for.
• I will generally not accept revisions to ballots. I recommend you send your ballot in later rather than earlier in case you change your mind about some of your votes.
• The winning card may (and likely will) be revised, so I encourage you vote for a card if you think it could be great with a different cost or some slight tweaking.

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.


Quote
Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.


Quote
Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.


Quote
Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.


Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Gaining Victory cards multiple times in a turn while this is in play does reduce the cost of Victory cards each time.


Quote
Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.


Quote
Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.


Quote
Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.


Quote
Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.


Quote
Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.


Quote
Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.


Quote
Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).


Quote
Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.

When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

EDIT: Added +2 Cards to Ring Leader's on-play effect.


Quote
River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.


Quote
Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.


Quote
Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.


Quote
Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.


Quote
Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.


Quote
Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.


Quote
Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.


Quote
Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.


Quote
Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.


Quote
Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.


Quote
Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.


Quote
Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.


Quote
Wayfarer (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to its cost in coins.


Quote
Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.


Quote
Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.


Quote
Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.


Quote
Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.


Quote
Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.


Quote
Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.


Quote
Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.


Quote
Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.


Quote
Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

EDIT: Changed from "when you gain a card" to "when you buy a card".


Quote
Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.


Quote
Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.


Quote
Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.


Quote
Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.


Quote
Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.


Quote
Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.


Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.


Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you buy this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

EDIT: Changed "When you gain this" to "When you buy this".


Quote
Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.


Quote
Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.


Quote
Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province instead.

EDIT: Added "instead" to the end of the text.


Quote
Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.


Quote
Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.


Quote
Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.


Quote
Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.


Quote
Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.


Quote
Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.


Quote
Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.


Quote
Wayfarer (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one costing $1 or more. Put all the revealed cards into your hand.

When you discard this from play, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper you have in play.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 11:16:34 pm by LastFootnote »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2013, 09:30:01 am »
+10

Results

11 votes:

Quote from: jamespotter
Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.

10 votes:

Quote from: markusin
Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.

Quote from: ChocophileBenj
Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.

8 votes:

Quote from: dnkywin
Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.

Quote from: Schneau
Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.

7 votes:

Quote from: SirPeebles
River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Quote from: scott_pilgrim
Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

Quote from: RobertJ
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

6 votes:

Quote from: Jack Rudd
Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.

Quote from: andwilk
Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.

Quote from: A Drowned Kernel
Wayfarer (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one costing $1 or more. Put all the revealed cards into your hand.

When you discard this from play, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper you have in play.

5 votes:

Quote from: Robz888
Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.

Quote from: Eistee
Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.

Quote from: HeavyD
Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.

Quote from: Archetype
Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.

4 votes:

Quote from: Arkham Angel
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

Quote from: Polk5440
Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

Quote from: Asper
Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).

Quote from: Powerman
Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.

When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

Quote from: kn1tt3r
Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.

Quote from: market squire
Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.

Quote from: Tables
Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.

Quote from: Nicrosil
Wayfarer (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to its cost in coins.

Quote from: yuma
Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.

Quote from: nopawnsintended
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you buy this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

Quote from: shark_bait
Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.

Quote from: GwinnR
Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.

3 votes:

Quote from: Fragasnap
Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.

Quote from: heron
Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.

Quote from: Just a Rube
Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.

Quote from: Gveoniz
Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.

Quote from: dghunter79
Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.

Quote from: Kirian
Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.

Quote from: WanderingWinder
Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.

2 votes:

Quote from: Garth One-eye
Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.

Quote from: -Stef-
Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.

Quote from: eHalcyon
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Gaining Victory cards multiple times in a turn while this is in play does reduce the cost of Victory cards each time.

Quote from: cluckyb
Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.

Quote from: Titandrake
Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.

Quote from: SheCantSayNo
Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.

Quote from: sudgy
Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

Quote from: XerxesPraelor
Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.

Quote from: Wrclass
Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.

Quote from: Guy Srinivasan
Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

1 vote:

Quote from: Delirious Deleuze
Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.

Quote from: ConMan
Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

Quote from: Watno
Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.

Quote from: math
Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.

Quote from: Julle
Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.

Quote from: awildnoobappeared
Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.

Quote from: StrongRhino
Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province instead.

0 votes:

Quote from: mail-mi
Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.

Quote from: Beyond Awesome
Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.

Quote from: jackelfrink
Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 06:15:16 pm by LastFootnote »
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Wrclass

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2013, 09:37:46 am »
+2

Hinterlands also has sort of a "simple" card theme.
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2013, 02:22:28 pm »
+1

Hinterlands also has sort of a "simple" card theme.
Sort of. The top parts of the cards tend to be simple. A few are pretty wordy (Jack of all Trades, Noble Brigand, Oracle). The bottom parts also tend to be straightforward.

I plan to submit an entry for Hinterlands. Just need to think it over a little.
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ConMan

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2013, 07:27:01 pm »
0

Hinterlands also has sort of a "simple" card theme.
And another minor theme - Icebergs. By which I mean cards that are simple, maybe even vanilla, "above the line", but have a lot more going on "below the line" in terms of in-play or when-buy/gain or Reaction effects. This kind of ties in to the plan for Hinterlands to have been the third standalone set.

Also, Iceberg would be a great Victory-Reaction card.
:rolleyes:
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2013, 09:50:01 pm »
0

Hinterlands also has sort of a "simple" card theme.
And another minor theme - Icebergs. By which I mean cards that are simple, maybe even vanilla, "above the line", but have a lot more going on "below the line" in terms of in-play or when-buy/gain or Reaction effects. This kind of ties in to the plan for Hinterlands to have been the third standalone set.

Also, Iceberg would be a great Victory-Reaction card.
:rolleyes:

In my time zone, ConMan's post was at 12:43 am and Wrclass's post was at 9:37 am.  I got confused because I was thinking that 12:43 am comes after 9:37 am (12 > 9).  Sigh.
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Tables

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2013, 11:14:52 am »
+2

I don't know about anyone else, but Hinterlands seems much harder to think of a good card idea for than Prosperity was, for me. I had a Prosperity card made in about 5 minutes, while Hinterlands I'm still at square one.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

scott_pilgrim

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2013, 11:24:22 am »
0

I don't know about anyone else, but Hinterlands seems much harder to think of a good card idea for than Prosperity was, for me. I had a Prosperity card made in about 5 minutes, while Hinterlands I'm still at square one.
Same for me...When I heard of the contest, I came up with rough ideas for every expansion except Hinterlands.  I'm not sure that the card I have now is worth submitting.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2013, 11:59:47 am »
0

I don't know about anyone else, but Hinterlands seems much harder to think of a good card idea for than Prosperity was, for me. I had a Prosperity card made in about 5 minutes, while Hinterlands I'm still at square one.

I have an idea I like for Guilds (which was originally for Prosperity, but then it worked better for Guilds).  I have an idea I really like for Dark Ages, although the reasons I like it might be dumb.  I have a mediocre idea for Cornucopia which is surprisingly difficult to word properly.  I actually have two for Alchemy, but one is a joke... which I think could still be fairly interesting. :P

I didn't have anything for Hinterlands, but I just made something pretty funky.

I don't have anything for Intrigue, which I find difficult because the theme is very... open?  The main theme is just "choices", which doesn't provide a lot of direction.

I don't have anything for Seaside, which also feels very open to me.  But I find that most durations feel clunky unless they are simple, but vanilla durations are pretty well covered already.  Of course, Duration typing isn't necessary (but I expect that the first contest at least will have a Duration winner).




In all of these contest, can we have one extra voting stage of like 5? I want to playtest before I vote, but 40 cards is way too much for that.

Why not just pick your favourites and playtest those?  Or if you read the comments, you can get a sense of the frontrunners.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 12:01:02 pm by eHalcyon »
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2013, 12:02:45 pm »
0

I don't know about anyone else, but Hinterlands seems much harder to think of a good card idea for than Prosperity was, for me. I had a Prosperity card made in about 5 minutes, while Hinterlands I'm still at square one.

Truth be told, it's the opposite for me. I'll definitely not send in a second Prosperity card, but i allready have two for Hinterlands. For Intrigue i have three, two for Alchemy, three for Dark Ages and the correct number for the remaining sets.
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2013, 12:16:45 pm »
0

I don't know about anyone else, but Hinterlands seems much harder to think of a good card idea for than Prosperity was, for me. I had a Prosperity card made in about 5 minutes, while Hinterlands I'm still at square one.

I have an idea I like for Guilds (which was originally for Prosperity, but then it worked better for Guilds).  I have an idea I really like for Dark Ages, although the reasons I like it might be dumb.  I have a mediocre idea for Cornucopia which is surprisingly difficult to word properly.  I actually have two for Alchemy, but one is a joke... which I think could still be fairly interesting. :P

I didn't have anything for Hinterlands, but I just made something pretty funky.

I don't have anything for Intrigue, which I find difficult because the theme is very... open?  The main theme is just "choices", which doesn't provide a lot of direction.

I don't have anything for Seaside, which also feels very open to me.  But I find that most durations feel clunky unless they are simple, but vanilla durations are pretty well covered already.  Of course, Duration typing isn't necessary (but I expect that the first contest at least will have a Duration winner).


It's hard to come up with even one good card at a time, let alone a whole bunch of cards in advance. I'm still thinking about Seaside, and I have to playtest my current idea if I decide to stick with it. I noticed that the duration bonuses have so far been designed in such a way that there is never a need for resolving order, so they ended up  involving vanilla bonuses most of the time.

I doubt I can come up with anything good for Cornucopia. For me, designing for Dark Ages and Intrigue is quite intimidating. This contest is quite the distraction.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2013, 12:31:54 pm »
0

I have a really hard time coming up with anything good.
I made one Seaside and one Alchemy card I'm absolutely ( ;D) sure will be the best of the lot, but can't think of any more cards. I have one card I think is good, but it doesn't really fit any of the given expansions as much, so I'm submitting it in hinterlands and giving it an on-buy mechanic.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2013, 12:37:34 pm »
+3

I have a really hard time coming up with anything good.
I made one Seaside and one Alchemy card I'm absolutely ( ;D) sure will be the best of the lot, but can't think of any more cards. I have one card I think is good, but it doesn't really fit any of the given expansions as much, so I'm submitting it in hinterlands and giving it an on-buy mechanic.

Be careful with that.  Just tacking on an on-buy or on-gain mechanic is not the greatest idea.  Try to figure out how you can make it feel cohesive.

Also, I advise people to carefully consider whether your effect can be on gain or if it has to be on buy.  Most of the effects in Hinterlands are on gain, but some had to be on buy to prevent bad situations.  Noble Brigand and Haggler are the ones I can think of, off the top of my head.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2013, 12:43:32 pm »
0

I have one card I think is good, but it doesn't really fit any of the given expansions as much, so I'm submitting it in hinterlands and giving it an on-buy mechanic.

Don't do that. I tried a similar thing for Prosperity and failed miserably.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2013, 12:46:21 pm »
0

I made one Seaside and one Alchemy card I'm absolutely ( ;D) sure will be the best of the lot, but can't think of any more cards.
Argh...my Alchemy and Seaside cards are the ones that I feel like are my best also, so we will have competition...

I have one card I think is good, but it doesn't really fit any of the given expansions as much, so I'm submitting it in hinterlands and giving it an on-buy mechanic.
This sounds like a bad idea.  Most other on-buy/on-gain cards have their on-buy/on-gain effect being an integral part of the card.  Nomad Camp would be Woodcutter without the top-decking, Cache would be Gold without the Copper-gaining, the whole point of IGG is to be a one-shot curser and the main point of Inn is to stack your deck, Border Village would be Village without the gaining, and Farmland would be worse than Duchy without the trashing.  It seems like most Hinterlands on-buy/on-gain cards started with ideas for on-buy or on-gain effects, then worked the top half to fit with the bottom half.

Edit: Ninja'd by everyone.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2013, 01:03:29 pm »
0

I'm really, really happy with my Hinterlands card. (Now watch everyone hate it...)
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2013, 01:17:26 pm »
0

I like my Hinterlands card, but I'm worried that it looks too bland.  The price is possibly off by a coin: I've been going back and forth with myself on it.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2013, 01:22:15 pm »
0

Whoa, I guess I'll just submit it without the on-buy thing. It still supports big decks, so I hope that'll be enough. I had an idea for an only-reaction card, but couldn't find a way for it to be worth anything. I guess by the time the second one of these comes around, I'll have got it good enough, but until then I can use this one.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2013, 01:35:29 pm »
0

I think the card I submitted is better for a seaside/hinterlands hybrid. LFN, can I turn in a different card instead?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2013, 02:06:35 pm »
0

You can always re-submit.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2013, 03:58:53 pm »
0

I think the card I submitted is better for a seaside/hinterlands hybrid. LFN, can I turn in a different card instead?

Yes, feel free.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2013, 05:06:02 pm »
0

I like my Hinterlands card, but I'm worried that it looks too bland.  The price is possibly off by a coin: I've been going back and forth with myself on it.

I am in literally the exact same situation.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2013, 05:13:21 pm »
0

I think the card I submitted is better for a seaside/hinterlands hybrid. LFN, can I turn in a different card instead?

Yes, feel free.
My new one... I don't know. It could be horribly overpowered.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2013, 06:11:18 pm »
0

I think the card I submitted is better for a seaside/hinterlands hybrid. LFN, can I turn in a different card instead?

Yes, feel free.
My new one... I don't know. It could be horribly overpowered.
That's why we have voting!

Who knows, maybe it will work out; I was pleasantly surprised by some of the kind words people gave to my Prosperity card, even though it won't win, by a long-shot (and got some criticism to, but mostly things I expected). It gave me a good feeling and more feedback.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 06:13:29 pm by Just a Rube »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2013, 06:54:07 pm »
0

I have a card, but I'm already confused about a potential rules complexity. Is there anyone hot on Dominion rules who'd be willing to give me a quick hand (just say so here I suppose). As an incentive, I think the issue involves blue dogs and pink elephants.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2013, 06:59:03 pm »
+1

I have a card, but I'm already confused about a potential rules complexity. Is there anyone hot on Dominion rules who'd be willing to give me a quick hand (just say so here I suppose). As an incentive, I think the issue involves blue dogs and pink elephants.

I like fretting over weird rules.  And I like colorful animals.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2013, 07:04:25 pm »
+2

pink elephants.
When you gain this card, take a drink?

The interaction with Trader seems pretty clear to me.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2013, 08:13:00 pm »
0

Possible card names:

Horse
Forgotten Tribe
Treehouse
Foreign Colloqium
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2013, 08:19:02 pm »
+1

I'm always down to discuss any parts of a card with anyone if they want (though you shouldn't want me for flavor); I will give as clear advice as I can, and you can take it or leave it.

I also have I think at least a couple cards for every expansion, except maybe Cornucopia. Cornucopia makes me just think of many anti-diversity-promoting cards, which I think would nevertheless be interesting. Maybe I'll make a mini-fan-expansion of these once this is over.

I also find that I am designing really few actions compared to what would be expected - I am pretty sure fewer than a third of my designs are actions. Okay, some of this is me trying to break Donald's "there aren't many more interesting victory cards left to do" mold, because my gut tells me it shouldn't be true; but this is difficult.


Edit: Does anyone know where that Donald X post is? I can't seem to find it...

Edit2: Here: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12631281#12631281
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 10:18:41 pm by WanderingWinder »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2013, 08:30:45 pm »
+5

Possible card names:

Horse
Forgotten Tribe
Treehouse
Foreign Colloqium

Make it "Lost Tribes" and it's a Small World reference. :P

And maybe "Horse" should be "Mostly Reliable Steed".
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2013, 09:25:23 pm »
+4

Right, after a bit of work on my ideas, dropping clauses, adding extra bits, changing things etc. I've managed to get a card which I'm happy with - it's at least kind of interesting, and seems mostly balanced with a few notable combos. Oh, and it's also now totally unrelated to Hinterlands. Whoops.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2013, 10:11:17 pm »
0

I have a card, but I'm already confused about a potential rules complexity. Is there anyone hot on Dominion rules who'd be willing to give me a quick hand (just say so here I suppose). As an incentive, I think the issue involves blue dogs and pink elephants.

I'd be happy to.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2013, 11:21:53 pm »
0

Right, after a bit of work on my ideas, dropping clauses, adding extra bits, changing things etc. I've managed to get a card which I'm happy with - it's at least kind of interesting, and seems mostly balanced with a few notable combos. Oh, and it's also now totally unrelated to Hinterlands. Whoops.

If the notable combos are with Hinterlands cards, you could submit it anyhow.

I'm curious about what it is, so I wouldn't mind seeing it whether or not you actually submit it.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2013, 12:23:16 am »
0

Argh, I don't know what to call my card.  And I can't ask for advice because then everybody will know what my card is.

And it wouldn't be a normal name, so you can't suggest generic names...
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2013, 12:25:21 am »
0

Argh, I don't know what to call my card.  And I can't ask for advice because then everybody will know what my card is.

And it wouldn't be a normal name, so you can't suggest generic names...

green blob thing
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2013, 12:27:23 am »
0

Argh, I don't know what to call my card.  And I can't ask for advice because then everybody will know what my card is.

And it wouldn't be a normal name, so you can't suggest generic names...

green blob thing

The huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuud....ge
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2013, 05:38:05 am »
0

I'd like to have some feedback about my card before I submit it; is anyone willing to look at it?
P.S. This isn't public, so it's legal, right?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2013, 06:43:52 am »
0

I have a card, but I'm already confused about a potential rules complexity. Is there anyone hot on Dominion rules who'd be willing to give me a quick hand (just say so here I suppose). As an incentive, I think the issue involves blue dogs and pink elephants.

I'd be happy to.

Thanks, but I've asked Sir Peebles about it and decided to move away from the idea (it does indeed cause other cards to do weird things, which is what I'd feared).

I'd like to have some feedback about my card before I submit it; is anyone willing to look at it?
P.S. This isn't public, so it's legal, right?

I'm happy to, although I'm hardly an expert, and well this way I can play pass on the help, right :)?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2013, 02:53:24 pm »
0

Argh, I don't know what to call my card.  And I can't ask for advice because then everybody will know what my card is.

And it wouldn't be a normal name, so you can't suggest generic names...

It sounds like there are plenty of people willing to help by PM; I'll probably take WW up on his offer. It won't matter if one person out of fifty knows which card is yours.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2013, 03:00:31 pm »
0

More names:

Matador
Mountain Pass
Palace
Wagon
Strange Ritual
Grandee
Battleground
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2013, 03:06:53 pm »
0

More names:

Matador
Mountain Pass
Palace
Wagon
Strange Ritual
Grandee
Battleground

Mountain Pass is the name of a winner from the previous Mini-Set Design contest, so I would try to avoid that name.  Also, Palace is the name of a Prosperity submission.  Admittedly, we should probably not worry about submitted names until one wins.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #57 on: September 05, 2013, 03:18:18 pm »
+1

More names:

Matador
Mountain Pass
Palace
Wagon
Strange Ritual
Grandee
Battleground

Mountain Pass is the name of a winner from the previous Mini-Set Design contest, so I would try to avoid that name.  Also, Palace is the name of a Prosperity submission.  Admittedly, we should probably not worry about submitted names until one wins.



:)
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2013, 09:17:05 pm »
0

More names:

Matador
Mountain Pass
Palace
Wagon
Strange Ritual
Grandee
Battleground

Mountain Pass is the name of a winner from the previous Mini-Set Design contest, so I would try to avoid that name.  Also, Palace is the name of a Prosperity submission.  Admittedly, we should probably not worry about submitted names until one wins.



:)

Also, don't use Grandee. I am reserving that one for myself.  :)
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2013, 11:19:09 pm »
0

I was thinking it would be cool to have a card called "Khan" or "Khanate", possibly as a $6-cost, Action/Attack/Victory? Something to do with building up a big deck ("empire") for yourself while conquering or exacting tribute from your opponents? I think it could fit the flavor of Hinterlands well, and certainly the Mongolian presence outside Europe was very significant in the approximate timeframe of Dominion. For example, in establishing the Silk Roads!

Really just a vague conception though, and I don't really intend on submitting it, so if anyone wants to steal the idea and run with it be my guest.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2013, 06:24:17 am »
0

I just noticed something on LastFootNote's rules (first message). Not very important... or is it ?


Many mechanics are fair game for any submission. The following is an incomplete list.

• Victory/Action and Victory/Treasure hybrid cards.
• Cards that allow you to choose an ability from a list.
• Cards with on-buy, would-gain, on-gain, and on-trash abilities.


Cards on-trash are only in Dark ages. Even if "on-buy" is in Prosperity (Mint) and "on-gain" is in Dark ages (Death cart), and not only in Hinterlands.

+ what's "would-gain" abilities ? It might be original "If you would gain this card, you may gain a Silver/a card costing less than this/a Scout instead" ^^
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #61 on: September 06, 2013, 07:40:33 am »
0

Would gain is Trader and is exactly the first thing you said :P
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #62 on: September 06, 2013, 08:17:36 am »
0

Well, no cards have a "Would gain" clause referring to themselves.  Currently the only "would gain" clauses are on Possession and Trader, and refer to gains of other cards.  There is no card which says "when you would gain me, gain Silver instead".
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #63 on: September 06, 2013, 08:43:50 am »
0

That's true. Such a clause would make a card extremely different though.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #64 on: September 06, 2013, 09:03:32 am »
0

That's true. Such a clause would make a card extremely different though.

Well that particularly example is no good, but I could imagine a clause that says something like "When you would gain this, if you have a Gold in play, gain two less expensive Action cards instead."  But you know, with better wording.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #65 on: September 06, 2013, 10:45:54 am »
+2

I was thinking it would be cool to have a card called "Khan" or "Khanate", possibly as a $6-cost, Action/Attack/Victory? Something to do with building up a big deck ("empire") for yourself while conquering or exacting tribute from your opponents? I think it could fit the flavor of Hinterlands well, and certainly the Mongolian presence outside Europe was very significant in the approximate timeframe of Dominion. For example, in establishing the Silk Roads!

Really just a vague conception though, and I don't really intend on submitting it, so if anyone wants to steal the idea and run with it be my guest.

OK, now I need to find a way to create a custom card, just so I can make this:

KHAN
[shatner.jpg]

Khaaaaaaan!
Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #66 on: September 06, 2013, 02:46:04 pm »
0

Hey LF, can I submit my card without a name?  I can't think of anything.....
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #67 on: September 06, 2013, 02:51:41 pm »
+1

Hey LF, can I submit my card without a name?  I can't think of anything.....

And if people include a blank line in the ballot, that's a vote for you!

If you can't think of one that fits, you should just grab a stock one.  There are a bunch of suggestions in this thread, and there is still this list.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #68 on: September 06, 2013, 02:54:42 pm »
0

Hey LF, can I submit my card without a name?  I can't think of anything.....

And if people include a blank line in the ballot, that's a vote for you!

If you can't think of one that fits, you should just grab a stock one.  There are a bunch of suggestions in this thread, and there is still this list.

I've already looked at the list.  The card just doesn't seem to want a name...  I know what it should be, but asking for a suggestion with what it should be will give it away when the name comes up...

There is a name that would work but it's already a dominion card...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #69 on: September 06, 2013, 03:04:34 pm »
0

Hey LF, can I submit my card without a name?  I can't think of anything.....

I'll allow it…once.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #70 on: September 06, 2013, 03:07:37 pm »
+1

Hey LF, can I submit my card without a name?  I can't think of anything.....

I'll allow it…once.

I suppose that means that you'll pick a stock name?  I mean, if there is a card called "No Name" then I will have a decent idea of whose it is.  Like, 90% sure. :P

Unrelated: I now have too many ideas for Dark Ages.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #71 on: September 06, 2013, 03:15:54 pm »
+4

Unrelated: I now have too many ideas for Dark Ages.

Well then just them all together in one pile.  Sounds like Dark Ages to me.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #72 on: September 06, 2013, 03:29:48 pm »
+1

Come to think of it, I am a bit worried that someone will make a pile like Knights which would be a real strain on the ballot space-wise, particularly if several people submit such ideas.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #73 on: September 06, 2013, 03:40:18 pm »
+3

Come to think of it, I am a bit worried that someone will make a pile like Knights which would be a real strain on the ballot space-wise, particularly if several people submit such ideas.

Due to the ridiculous amount of work that would be for me, I won't allow it. I will allow a maximum number of two cards for any given submission. Either a stack of Kingdom cards with two different cards in it or a Kingdom card and a supplementary card (which can have no more than 5 copies, maybe less depending on how many Victory cards we have).

Please do not read this as a challenge! I prefer single-card submissions.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #74 on: September 06, 2013, 03:52:48 pm »
+2

I think it might be nice if we used those extra slots for new Prizes.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #75 on: September 06, 2013, 03:54:54 pm »
0

I think it might be nice if we used those extra slots for new Prizes.

That could really mess with Tournament's power level.  Would you play with all ten Prizes available, or would you add a new rule that five are selected at random?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #76 on: September 06, 2013, 03:57:57 pm »
+4

I think it might be nice if we used those extra slots for new Prizes.

I may have a 14th contest at the end for one new prize if we have room.

Or maybe I'll just sleep for a month. Who can say?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #77 on: September 06, 2013, 03:58:30 pm »
0

I think it might be nice if we used those extra slots for new Prizes.

That could really mess with Tournament's power level.  Would you play with all ten Prizes available, or would you add a new rule that five are selected at random?

Well, it wouldn't be necessary to use all 5 slots for new Prizes.  Maybe just 1 or 2.  I think randomized prizes would probably be fine, as would be using all of them.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #78 on: September 06, 2013, 03:59:21 pm »
+1

Come to think of it, I am a bit worried that someone will make a pile like Knights which would be a real strain on the ballot space-wise, particularly if several people submit such ideas.

Due to the ridiculous amount of work that would be for me, I won't allow it. I will allow a maximum number of two cards for any given submission. Either a stack of Kingdom cards with two different cards in it or a Kingdom card and a supplementary card (which can have no more than 5 copies, maybe less depending on how many Victory cards we have).

Please do not read this as a challenge! I prefer single-card submissions.

What if the cards were submitted in a format like:

Quote from: Knights
Knights
Action/Knight - $5
[unique effect depending on the Knight]. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from Coin3.png to Coin6.png, and discards the rest. If a Knight is trashed by this, trash this card
---
Unique effects:
+2 cards
+2 actions
+2 buys [costs $4]
+$2
Trash up to 2 cards from your hand
Gain a card costing up to $3
+1 card, +1 action
Each other player discards down to 3 cards
2 VPs [action/victory/knight type]
When this card is trashed, gain a gold [below line effect]

Not saying I want to do this, just wondering if that would be acceptable, should someone believe they have a cracking idea to utilise it?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #79 on: September 06, 2013, 04:01:10 pm »
0

Come to think of it, I am a bit worried that someone will make a pile like Knights which would be a real strain on the ballot space-wise, particularly if several people submit such ideas.

Due to the ridiculous amount of work that would be for me, I won't allow it. I will allow a maximum number of two cards for any given submission. Either a stack of Kingdom cards with two different cards in it or a Kingdom card and a supplementary card (which can have no more than 5 copies, maybe less depending on how many Victory cards we have).

Please do not read this as a challenge! I prefer single-card submissions.

What if the cards were submitted in a format like:

Quote from: Knights
Knights
Action/Knight - $5
[unique effect depending on the Knight]. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from Coin3.png to Coin6.png, and discards the rest. If a Knight is trashed by this, trash this card
---
Unique effects:
+2 cards
+2 actions
+2 buys [costs $4]
+$2
Trash up to 2 cards from your hand
Gain a card costing up to $3
+1 card, +1 action
Each other player discards down to 3 cards
2 VPs [action/victory/knight type]
When this card is trashed, gain a gold [below line effect]

Not saying I want to do this, just wondering if that would be acceptable, should someone believe they have a cracking idea to utilise it?

As cool as that might be, I don't think I'll allow it. I think we can let that be Knights's schtick, at least for the purposes of this Treasure Chest set.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #80 on: September 06, 2013, 05:00:06 pm »
0

Victory cards might eat up some of those free card spaces anyway....

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #81 on: September 06, 2013, 05:42:46 pm »
0

Victory cards might eat up some of those free card spaces anyway....

Well, I haven't been submitting victory cards, so obviously there won't be any...  ;D
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #82 on: September 06, 2013, 06:31:43 pm »
0

I was thinking it would be cool to have a card called "Khan" or "Khanate", possibly as a $6-cost, Action/Attack/Victory? Something to do with building up a big deck ("empire") for yourself while conquering or exacting tribute from your opponents? I think it could fit the flavor of Hinterlands well, and certainly the Mongolian presence outside Europe was very significant in the approximate timeframe of Dominion. For example, in establishing the Silk Roads!

Really just a vague conception though, and I don't really intend on submitting it, so if anyone wants to steal the idea and run with it be my guest.

I predict you will see something like this that is totally different than this. ;)
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #83 on: September 06, 2013, 08:25:38 pm »
+14

I was thinking it would be cool to have a card called "Khan" or "Khanate", possibly as a $6-cost, Action/Attack/Victory? Something to do with building up a big deck ("empire") for yourself while conquering or exacting tribute from your opponents? I think it could fit the flavor of Hinterlands well, and certainly the Mongolian presence outside Europe was very significant in the approximate timeframe of Dominion. For example, in establishing the Silk Roads!

Really just a vague conception though, and I don't really intend on submitting it, so if anyone wants to steal the idea and run with it be my guest.

OK, now I need to find a way to create a custom card, just so I can make this:

KHAN
[shatner.jpg]

Khaaaaaaan!
Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #84 on: September 06, 2013, 10:11:30 pm »
+6



I suppose that means that you'll pick a stock name?  I mean, if there is a card called "No Name" then I will have a decent idea of whose it is.  Like, 90% sure. :P
I've been through the contest with a card with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #85 on: September 06, 2013, 10:41:55 pm »
+4



I suppose that means that you'll pick a stock name?  I mean, if there is a card called "No Name" then I will have a decent idea of whose it is.  Like, 90% sure. :P
I've been through the contest with a card with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain

In the contest, I can't remember your name, 'cause the cards on the ballot don't show me your name.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #86 on: September 07, 2013, 10:47:21 pm »
0

I just got a wacky idea for Intrigue.  Not sure whether or not I can make it work.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #87 on: September 07, 2013, 11:25:59 pm »
0

I just submitted. I hate hate hate my name though, all the fitting ones are used.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #88 on: September 07, 2013, 11:33:21 pm »
0

I just submitted. I hate hate hate my name though, all the fitting ones are used.
Don't worry, mine is worse.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #89 on: September 07, 2013, 11:38:12 pm »
+9

I just submitted. I hate hate hate my name though, all the fitting ones are used.
Don't worry, mine is worse.

Hey.  It is a decent name, despite the confusions with mint.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #90 on: September 07, 2013, 11:39:10 pm »
0

Mine is even worse...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #91 on: September 08, 2013, 12:26:07 am »
+1

I just submitted. I hate hate hate my name though, all the fitting ones are used.
Don't worry, mine is worse.

Hey.  It is a decent name, despite the confusions with mint.

This is the new Scout joke now, isn't it?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #92 on: September 08, 2013, 12:28:37 am »
0

I just submitted. I hate hate hate my name though, all the fitting ones are used.
Don't worry, mine is worse.

Hey.  It is a decent name, despite the confusions with mint.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #93 on: September 08, 2013, 04:24:58 am »
0

The theme isn't nearly as easy to do for Hinterlands as for Prosperity or Alchemy, for example, and that adds difficulty as well.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #94 on: September 08, 2013, 09:09:01 am »
0

Well, most of the sets have cards with off-theme names (what does a Caravan have to do with the Seaside?). Hinterlands itself has a far-travel/touch of the exotic theme (Crossroads, Mandarin, etc.), but plenty of cards that don't really fit (Jack-of-all-Trades is a great name for the card, but has little to do with the broader theme).

On the other hand, I am really struggling to come up with a theme for Cornucopia names. The cards themselves are fine, but the naming is less tight a fit than, say, Seaside or Alchemy.

Incidentally, do we know which expansion is coming after Hinterlands?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #95 on: September 08, 2013, 09:19:09 am »
+1

Incidentally, do we know which expansion is coming after Hinterlands?

I don't think LastFootnote has said.  He's already getting Prosperity ballots and Hinterlands submissions, so I don't blame him.  But we are going through the large expansions, then small expansions, then back through the large expansions for second cards.  So next up is either Intrigue, Seaside, or Dark Ages.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #96 on: September 08, 2013, 09:58:52 am »
+2

On the other hand, I am really struggling to come up with a theme for Cornucopia names. The cards themselves are fine, but the naming is less tight a fit than, say, Seaside or Alchemy.

The harvest festival! Farming Village, Harvest, and Horn of Plenty refer specifically to the crops themselves; Fortune Teller, Menagerie, Tournament, Jester, and Fairgrounds (and arguably Hunting Party and Horse Traders) refer to the autumn fair thrown in celebration of the harvest, and the many delightful events and attractions to be found there. ("Autumn, a time of celebration!")
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #97 on: September 08, 2013, 10:09:51 am »
+4

On the other hand, I am really struggling to come up with a theme for Cornucopia names. The cards themselves are fine, but the naming is less tight a fit than, say, Seaside or Alchemy.

The harvest festival! Farming Village, Harvest, and Horn of Plenty refer specifically to the crops themselves; Fortune Teller, Menagerie, Tournament, Jester, and Fairgrounds (and arguably Hunting Party and Horse Traders) refer to the autumn fair thrown in celebration of the harvest, and the many delightful events and attractions to be found there. ("Autumn, a time of celebration!")

So...for Cornucopia names:

Cotton Candy Machine
Rickety Ferris Wheel
Fried Dough (or Funnel Cake)
Bumper Cars
That Ride with the Spinning Teacups that I Don't Know What it's Called

Feel free to use any of these names for your submissions for Cornucopia cards.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #98 on: September 08, 2013, 06:36:45 pm »
0

So, question: if we have a card which is self-referrential (and don't read too much into this, I am typing up like 30 different cards for different expansions right now), how should we format that? Like,

"If this is the first time you played a Fool’s Gold this turn, this is worth $1, otherwise it’s worth $4."
Or
"If this is the first time you played a CARDNAME this turn, this is worth $1, otherwise it’s worth $4."
?

There are other situations (like the below the line of FG) where "this" is obviously correct - namely when it is the particular copy of a card you are worried about - but there are some which are not so clear.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #99 on: September 08, 2013, 07:17:38 pm »
+1

So, question: if we have a card which is self-referrential (and don't read too much into this, I am typing up like 30 different cards for different expansions right now), how should we format that? Like,

"If this is the first time you played a Fool’s Gold this turn, this is worth $1, otherwise it’s worth $4."
Or
"If this is the first time you played a CARDNAME this turn, this is worth $1, otherwise it’s worth $4."
?

There are other situations (like the below the line of FG) where "this" is obviously correct - namely when it is the particular copy of a card you are worried about - but there are some which are not so clear.

Aren't those two examples the same?  I mean, obviously you would include the real name rather than "CARDNAME", unless your card has some sort of weird variable name.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #100 on: September 08, 2013, 07:36:15 pm »
0

So, question: if we have a card which is self-referrential (and don't read too much into this, I am typing up like 30 different cards for different expansions right now), how should we format that? Like,

"If this is the first time you played a Fool’s Gold this turn, this is worth $1, otherwise it’s worth $4."
Or
"If this is the first time you played a CARDNAME this turn, this is worth $1, otherwise it’s worth $4."
?

There are other situations (like the below the line of FG) where "this" is obviously correct - namely when it is the particular copy of a card you are worried about - but there are some which are not so clear.

Aren't those two examples the same?  I mean, obviously you would include the real name rather than "CARDNAME", unless your card has some sort of weird variable name.
No, they aren't the same. It's just that you think that the answer is obvious. It is NOT obvious to me at all - in fact, my strong inclination is to use the CARDNAME template, probably from long looking at the design of Magic cards.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #101 on: September 08, 2013, 07:48:53 pm »
0

So, question: if we have a card which is self-referrential (and don't read too much into this, I am typing up like 30 different cards for different expansions right now), how should we format that? Like,

"If this is the first time you played a Fool’s Gold this turn, this is worth $1, otherwise it’s worth $4."
Or
"If this is the first time you played a CARDNAME this turn, this is worth $1, otherwise it’s worth $4."
?

There are other situations (like the below the line of FG) where "this" is obviously correct - namely when it is the particular copy of a card you are worried about - but there are some which are not so clear.

Aren't those two examples the same?  I mean, obviously you would include the real name rather than "CARDNAME", unless your card has some sort of weird variable name.
No, they aren't the same. It's just that you think that the answer is obvious. It is NOT obvious to me at all - in fact, my strong inclination is to use the CARDNAME template, probably from long looking at the design of Magic cards.

OK, I've never played Magic.  Transmute, Golem, Fool's Gold, Duchess,  Rats, and Cultist each refer to their own name.  Spoils and Madman refer to their pile as "Spoils pile" and "Madman pile" respectively.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #102 on: September 08, 2013, 07:56:44 pm »
0

So, question: if we have a card which is self-referrential (and don't read too much into this, I am typing up like 30 different cards for different expansions right now), how should we format that? Like,

"If this is the first time you played a Fool’s Gold this turn, this is worth $1, otherwise it’s worth $4."
Or
"If this is the first time you played a CARDNAME this turn, this is worth $1, otherwise it’s worth $4."
?

There are other situations (like the below the line of FG) where "this" is obviously correct - namely when it is the particular copy of a card you are worried about - but there are some which are not so clear.

Aren't those two examples the same?  I mean, obviously you would include the real name rather than "CARDNAME", unless your card has some sort of weird variable name.
No, they aren't the same. It's just that you think that the answer is obvious. It is NOT obvious to me at all - in fact, my strong inclination is to use the CARDNAME template, probably from long looking at the design of Magic cards.

OK, I've never played Magic.  Transmute, Golem, Fool's Gold, Duchess,  Rats, and Cultist each refer to their own name.  Spoils and Madman refer to their pile as "Spoils pile" and "Madman pile" respectively.

Once it gets to final cards, it always switches to the actual card's name - as in Dominion. But when they are designing/testing/playtesting/etc., they use CARDNAME, because things are liable to change, and that way it's standardized and easier.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #103 on: September 08, 2013, 08:09:49 pm »
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Presumably, that's because they have physical copies of the card they're using and tweaking. Here we'd only ever use substitutes anyway, so just using the genuine name seems better to me.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #104 on: September 08, 2013, 08:33:44 pm »
0

Presumably, that's because they have physical copies of the card they're using and tweaking. Here we'd only ever use substitutes anyway, so just using the genuine name seems better to me.
While they do have physical copies they're using, they just make new ones whenever they make a change. They generally have a whole bunch of blank cards, then they print up stickers they slap on. All the references I'm referring to are there, but mostly I'm thinking of the electronic files.

Maybe it's because some massive percentage of cards get re-named by their thematic/flavor department.

Anyway, it's looking pretty clear that the consensus is using the actual testing name, so if I end up submitting such a card, that is what I'll do.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #105 on: September 08, 2013, 08:46:26 pm »
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I just got a wacky idea for Intrigue.  Not sure whether or not I can make it work.
I also came up with an idea that I thought was super awesome for Intrigue. Now I'm not sure about it after playtesting it a bit. I'm trying to tweak it so it's not totally unbalanced without making it ultimately too dull.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #106 on: September 08, 2013, 10:09:48 pm »
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I was thinking it would be cool to have a card called "Khan" or "Khanate", possibly as a $6-cost, Action/Attack/Victory? Something to do with building up a big deck ("empire") for yourself while conquering or exacting tribute from your opponents? I think it could fit the flavor of Hinterlands well, and certainly the Mongolian presence outside Europe was very significant in the approximate timeframe of Dominion. For example, in establishing the Silk Roads!

Really just a vague conception though, and I don't really intend on submitting it, so if anyone wants to steal the idea and run with it be my guest.

OK, now I need to find a way to create a custom card, just so I can make this:

KHAN
[shatner.jpg]

Khaaaaaaan!
Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!



Thank you!
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #107 on: September 09, 2013, 01:29:07 am »
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Well, I came up with an idea at the last minute, but I don't think it was particularly good.

In the future, if anyone wants help naming a card then I'd be happy to help through PMs.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #108 on: September 09, 2013, 12:00:49 pm »
0

So, question: if we have a card which is self-referrential (and don't read too much into this, I am typing up like 30 different cards for different expansions right now), how should we format that? Like,

"If this is the first time you played a Fool’s Gold this turn, this is worth $1, otherwise it’s worth $4."
Or
"If this is the first time you played a CARDNAME this turn, this is worth $1, otherwise it’s worth $4."
?

There are other situations (like the below the line of FG) where "this" is obviously correct - namely when it is the particular copy of a card you are worried about - but there are some which are not so clear.

Use the name you gave the card, not "CARDNAME".
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #109 on: September 09, 2013, 12:24:01 pm »
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Is the deadline past?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #111 on: September 09, 2013, 01:54:22 pm »
+1

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

Didn't even get past the first one yet, OMG this is so ridiculously unbalanced. You just buy this and only this. Play Palanquin, discard Palanquin, get +1 Action +5 Cards??? You will be drawing your whole deck with like 3 of these. It's not even terribroken, it's just broken.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #112 on: September 09, 2013, 01:56:09 pm »
+1

Quote
Quagmire
Types: Victory
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.

Cost?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #113 on: September 09, 2013, 02:05:20 pm »
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Hey, thanks for naming my card...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #114 on: September 09, 2013, 02:08:10 pm »
+4

Quote
Quagmire
Types: Victory
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.

Cost?

I assume the cost is low, though it has to be more than $2, or it's strictly superior to Estate.

Although, man, if this WERE cheap, it can really, really tip the game in favor of the first guy to get a Province.

Or actually, hang on, this is 1 VP.

Three gains of this ends the game. Assuming the other guy didn't get any VP, you win.

Yeah... bad, bad card. Unless you can't trash Provinces, or something.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #115 on: September 09, 2013, 03:05:42 pm »
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Factory is also missing cost.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #116 on: September 09, 2013, 03:11:32 pm »
0

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

This seems dangerously broken, as mentioned by Robz888.

Quote
Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.

Very crazy, not in a good way.  The first player to set up a triple-Workshop turn, or a double-Workshop with $3, or a $9 and 3 buy turn, just wins.

Quote
Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.

So these can just auto-pile?  I don't like that...it means that if you have $5 and a Trade Agreement in play at the right time, the game ends one pile early.  I mean I guess that's a pretty specific situation, but that might make it even weirder...do I empty the second pile, hoping my opponent doesn't have $5 and a Trade Agreement?  I don't really like it, but maybe it's not broken.

Quote
Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.

This seems like a dead card on most boards.  Trade off $1 for an extra buy and a dead card in your deck.  I doubt that that is almost ever worthwhile.  Obviously there are some cases where it is, but the odds that you get one of those cases while this is actually on the board seems really, really unlikely.

Quote
Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.

This needs a cost.  This is actually pretty interesting, and I think I like it.  I think I've seen the top half before, but the bottom half makes it feel a little more exciting.

Quote
Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.

This has problems with gaining not on your turn.  It should probably say "When you gain this during your turn, +1 Buy."

Quote
Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than it.

Is "it" the Travelling Salesman, or the victory card that another player gained?  I would guess the latter.  I think I like this.  I thought it was strong at first glance but thinking about it a little more it seems reasonable.

Quote
Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.

So the Reinforcement cards are in the supply and can be gained by other cards, just not bought.  I think I've seen this card or something very similar to it somewhere before, and I like it a lot.

Quote
Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You my put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.

I think this is too strong, but I'm not sure.  It makes it very easy to make sure your engine goes off whenever this is in hand.  Actually this seems very similar to Band of Misfits.  It's whatever you need it to be at the time.  BoM can be any card costing $4 or less, while Midnight Gathering can be any card in your deck but not in your hand.  But most of the cards in your deck are in your deck because you want them in your deck (at least most of the cards that you would want to draw from your deck), so it almost seems like this has to be better than BoM.  I guess for BoM you don't have to take the time to buy the cards that you want, and you can't whiff by already having the card (but if you already have the card, then you most likely don't need a second copy of it right away), but it can whiff by having the supply pile empty.  I don't know, I guess there are a lot of small differences between Midnight Gathering and BoM but I would guess Midnight Gathering is better about 80% of the time.

Quote
Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.

This sounds bonkers strong.  You trash Estates with it, gain a $3 and a $5, and a Bargain to trash a Copper from your hand.  Then the discarding down to 2 doesn't matter, and you've replaced a Copper and Estate in your deck with a $3, a $5, and another Bargain.  Granted, everyone else gets to trash too when you gain it.  It is interesting though.  I don't think that the discard down to 2 penalty really fits, maybe it would be good with some other penalty.  I'm also not sold on the on-gain effect.  It might be interesting if it gained Estates on-gain, like how Death Cart gains ruins on gain.  It gives you stuff that you normally wouldn't like, and probably overall you don't like, but if you collide it with your Bargain, you can make good use of it.  I'm not sure whether that would be a buff or nerf.

Quote
Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.

This seems like a different way of doing what Midnight Gathering did, but cheaper and limited to action cards.  But the restriction to action cards probably doesn't make almost any difference, since it's really an engine card anyway.  Since I was worried that Midnight Gathering was too strong at $5, I really think this is too strong at $4.  The on-gain is a nerf, but I don't think it's big enough.

Quote
Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.

This is kind of interesting and could be a lot of fun.  Really not sure on the balance, I could see it being really weak or really strong or just right...

Quote
Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.

This is really swingy in games without good Estate trashing and really strong in games with good Estate trashing.  I would guess that it's actually pretty weak overall though, since by the time you want it, Gold-gaining is not spectacular.  So actually it's probably fine.  Not sure about the on-buy though.

Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

It's worth noting that these can auto-pile with just one Highway or Bridge in play, and even top-deck themselves while doing it.

Quote
Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.

I think this is too weak.  Normally I won't want it on top of my deck, even if I have the chance to.  It's just a limited Pawn, or a Candlestick Maker without the coin token, that I can do several turns in a row.  Might be important in draw-to-X engines that have no other +buy, but that's kind of specific.  I don't know, not every card has to be a power card...

Quote
Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.

Actually identical above-the-line text to the previous card.  I would guess this is even weaker just because of the higher cost, where it competes with Silver.  The below-the-line text is significantly better than Courier (B)'s below-the-line text, but I doubt it's worth it for $3 on most boards.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #117 on: September 09, 2013, 03:12:52 pm »
0

A few edits:

Quagmire now has a cost: $3! Sorry about that.

Factory also has a cost: $4. Apologies.

At the request of the author, I have changed Artefact's wording back such that when you buy it, it will eventually make its way into your discard pile without you actually ever gaining it.

I am currently talking to the author of Midnight Gathering about that card, which I changed because the original version lacked accountability (did not make you reveal the Action card you put into your hand to prove that it is indeed an Action card). It may change soon depending on how that resolves. I'll keep you posted.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 03:23:57 pm by LastFootnote »
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #118 on: September 09, 2013, 03:14:15 pm »
+1

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

Didn't even get past the first one yet, OMG this is so ridiculously unbalanced. You just buy this and only this. Play Palanquin, discard Palanquin, get +1 Action +5 Cards??? You will be drawing your whole deck with like 3 of these. It's not even terribroken, it's just broken.

I was going to say "Strictly better than Apprentice" but then I would have to qualify it with "when there are no Potion cards in the kingdom" and also be prepared for all those edge cases where you actually want to trash a card instead of discarding it (Rats, etc.). So I'll just almost say it, instead.

Edit: misread. I agree with Robz, though.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 03:19:40 pm by Polk5440 »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #119 on: September 09, 2013, 03:17:29 pm »
+1

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

Didn't even get past the first one yet, OMG this is so ridiculously unbalanced. You just buy this and only this. Play Palanquin, discard Palanquin, get +1 Action +5 Cards??? You will be drawing your whole deck with like 3 of these. It's not even terribroken, it's just broken.

I was going to say "Strictly better than Apprentice" but then I would have to qualify it with "when there are no Potion cards in the kingdom" and also be prepared for all those edge cases where you actually want to trash a card instead of discarding it (Rats, etc.). So I'll just almost say it, instead.
Apprentice doesn't have to trash action cards...
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #120 on: September 09, 2013, 03:19:02 pm »
0

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

Didn't even get past the first one yet, OMG this is so ridiculously unbalanced. You just buy this and only this. Play Palanquin, discard Palanquin, get +1 Action +5 Cards??? You will be drawing your whole deck with like 3 of these. It's not even terribroken, it's just broken.

I was going to say "Strictly better than Apprentice" but then I would have to qualify it with "when there are no Potion cards in the kingdom" and also be prepared for all those edge cases where you actually want to trash a card instead of discarding it (Rats, etc.). So I'll just almost say it, instead.
Apprentice doesn't have to trash action cards...

Oh, I totally missed this was restricted to Actions cards! Anyway, Robz's comment still holds.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #121 on: September 09, 2013, 03:22:25 pm »
0

Quote
Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.

This seems like a different way of doing what Midnight Gathering did, but cheaper and limited to action cards.

Midnight Gathering is also limited to Action cards (for the time being).
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #122 on: September 09, 2013, 03:25:48 pm »
0

Quote
Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.

This seems like a different way of doing what Midnight Gathering did, but cheaper and limited to action cards.

Midnight Gathering is also limited to Action cards (for the time being).
Oh, right.  I think I even took that into account while commenting on it, but then somehow forgot it when I got to Shaman.
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andwilk

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #123 on: September 09, 2013, 03:28:22 pm »
0

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

Didn't even get past the first one yet, OMG this is so ridiculously unbalanced. You just buy this and only this. Play Palanquin, discard Palanquin, get +1 Action +5 Cards??? You will be drawing your whole deck with like 3 of these. It's not even terribroken, it's just broken.


I was going to say "Strictly better than Apprentice" but then I would have to qualify it with "when there are no Potion cards in the kingdom" and also be prepared for all those edge cases where you actually want to trash a card instead of discarding it (Rats, etc.). So I'll just almost say it, instead.

Edit: misread. I agree with Robz, though.


To defend Palanquin a bit here... I don't see how it is broken, maybe a little overpowered.  Play Palanquin, discard Palanquin is like trying to line up Treasure Maps, not to mention the opportunity cost of not buying other $5-costers.  It's not as easy to use (early-game anyways) as Stables, for example, since you don't start with any actions in your deck.  It's a strong card for sure, but I think with a small nerf it would be an interesting drawing card.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #124 on: September 09, 2013, 03:31:46 pm »
0

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

Didn't even get past the first one yet, OMG this is so ridiculously unbalanced. You just buy this and only this. Play Palanquin, discard Palanquin, get +1 Action +5 Cards??? You will be drawing your whole deck with like 3 of these. It's not even terribroken, it's just broken.


I was going to say "Strictly better than Apprentice" but then I would have to qualify it with "when there are no Potion cards in the kingdom" and also be prepared for all those edge cases where you actually want to trash a card instead of discarding it (Rats, etc.). So I'll just almost say it, instead.

Edit: misread. I agree with Robz, though.


To defend Palanquin a bit here... I don't see how it is broken, maybe a little overpowered.  Play Palanquin, discard Palanquin is like trying to line up Treasure Maps, not to mention the opportunity cost of not buying other $5-costers.  It's not as easy to use (early-game anyways) as Stables, for example, since you don't start with any actions in your deck.  It's a strong card for sure, but I think with a small nerf it would be an interesting drawing card.

Totally disagree. This will be a must-buy, and strategically uninteresting. Just keep buying this, and other actions if you can't afford this, and you will be drawing your deck in no time at all. It's much easier to line up then TMap, because the card itself draws cards even when they don't connect (presuming you have other actions). And the thing with TMap is, extra copies make it more likely that you connect once, but then you get rid of the primaries and probably won't connect again. Here, you will keep connecting over and over again.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #125 on: September 09, 2013, 03:43:33 pm »
0

This is a sort of stream of consciousness type thing, so I may say one thing and then change my mind by the end of the paragraph. (One of these is mine) Lots of people posted while I was typing this, so I may repeat some things...

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Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

EDIT:I agree with Robz...way OP.


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Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.

I really like the top, but I think the bottom makes the card a bit too powerful for its price point. Essentially, it means: if you have a victory card in hand, you can pick up a valuable engine piece for $1, without using a buy.


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Quagmire
Types: Victory
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.

This doesn't have a cost, so I don't know exactly how I feel about it, but I have never been a fan of cards that are straight up game tempo manipulation.


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Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.

This is an interesting concept, essentially saving a whole hand for later, but I feel that in practice it won't be very useful, and the best strategy will be to avoid Hinterland entirely.


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Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.

This card confuses me. I understand the purpose of the "when you gain a victory card" clause, but it seems a clunky solution. Also, I think this card might be too good in multiples, or in combination with other cost reducers. The +1 action makes it easily playable, and the +2 buys is really good, especially at $3. Now that I think about it though, the card itself is fairly weak, and is almost useless except late in the game, when the low price won't matter to you as much. Overall, I think I like this card, but it will need some playtesting to see if it creates broken combos.


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Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

I think this card might be balanced. At first I thought it was overpowered, but after rereading the bottom and realizing the copper goes to hand, I think it could be okay. The idea doesn't excite me much, though, as it feels to much like Warehouse.


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Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.

This is cool, but I am wary of cards that want you to buy themselves on the card. I think this would be interesting, though, in that a lot of terminal draw could really mess you up, so the timing of purchases would have to be carefully planned out. I think I like this card because it causes some interesting tactical decisions.


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Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing excatly $3 more than it.

Oooh, this is interesting. It may promote big money just a tad too much for my taste, but I love the bottom part of the card. I think if the top were tweaked slightly to be less "Yay Big Money!" It would be a great card.


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Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.

SCOUT! Actually, though, I personally don't like the +$1 per VP card concept, but that is just personal preference. The card seems fine.


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Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.

A better Cellar with a weird on-gain mechanic. I like this one, as it blends Cellar and Border Village while not straying too far into either's territory. This may be too much better than Cartographer, although I suppose they fulfill different functions.


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Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.

This type of thing has been tried before, and I think Tribe executes the same idea a lot better. This card is just too vanilla for me.


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Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Gain it after you next shuffle (or when the game ends).

Cool idea, but I will either accidentally add this card into my deck, or forget about it. I have enough trouble with durations already.


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Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

Seems okay.


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River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

This is interesting, and could drive a lot of oddball strategies that might work. It is sleek and seems balanced. This is my favorite so far.


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Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.

Again, no price, but I would assume $5. This seems too swingy, as a lucky draw of this with King's Court could make a huge difference. Things like the top have been tried before, by myself included, and they always seem to not be very interesting. I like the bottom though, especially if it were on a weaker card.


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Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.

Feels like Island, except maybe worse and it costs $5.


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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

A reboot of Charity (A)? I liked that, but I like this slightly less, because I feel that being a treasure really made Charity (A) exciting. Still, it is a cool concept.


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Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.

This feels boring, but seems balanced.


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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.

Look through and shuffle your deck. That line makes this card not fun for me. On the top part of an action, this could be happening 2-3 times a turn, and that is ridiculously slow.


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Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.

This card is interesting. It seems similar to Smelter, but fits the Hinterlands cycling theme more and has more of a strategic niche. I like it.


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Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.

Again, I am not a fan of this type of +1 buy on the bottom.


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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

This is a nerfed University, but easier to get, with an Attack when you buy it. I don't think this is balanced at any cost, even without the attack.


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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than it.

Less than Travelling Salesman or less than the Victory Card? If it is the former, I think this is a neat little card, which would have its place in some games, but not all.


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Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.

The top seems too good with engines. Drawing your deck is often easy to set up when you don't care about having money, and this card makes that work even faster by making getting the components easy, too. The bottom might work, but on a much weaker card.


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Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.

I have no clue if this breaks anything, but I feel like it does. The self limiting might help, but overall, I don't think this card is good enough for me to want to buy, 90% of the time.


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Wayfarer
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ euqal to its cost in coins.

Seems cool, and fairly balanced. I would probably mostly use this as an early copper trasher, but it could have other uses. I like it.


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Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.

Lab with a slight nerf, but an on-gain effect. It is probably fine, but doesn't excite me all that much. It would be a good buy most of the time, like Lab.


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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.

This feels a lot like tunnel, with the whole "Victory card that gains gold" thing. It might be overpowered, however, because it lets me buy a gold+copper for $0, when gold+2 coppers costs $5.


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Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.

Problem: when the reinforcement card is a brutal attack, a 5-2 opening becomes way too good in comparison to a 3-4. Cool idea, though, and an anti-attack clause might fix this card.


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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You my put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.

This is an elegant execution of the "search you deck" mechanic, and I think it may actually be balanced, unlike many cards in a similar vein. I would be interested to see how it played.



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Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.

This is an interesting idea, but I would probably ignore it in most games, except as cheap VP at the end. 


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Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.

This combination of Scout and Workshop seems dull. It's balanced, but I would only buy it in the circumstances I would buy Workshop.


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Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.

This seems way too good, as it is a way better Remodel with "Discard a card" thrown in on the end. THe on-gain is fine, but the card is still overpowered.


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Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.

This is interesting, and combines a lot of effects that are marginally useful to make one good card. It is a clever idea.


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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you gain a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

This is broken, as it will allow you to gain a whole pile of $5s and the Border Village pile. It is also odd because it has no "Action effect".


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Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.

The same concept as Midnight Gathering, but I don't think it is as cleanly executed. It could also cause a lot of waiting around while a player flips over 20 cards.


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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.

This is just weird. It could be and interesting card, but I don't have any idea if it is overpowered, broken, or good.


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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.

This card is another one that encourages gaining a lot of itself, for no reason other than to activate the card. I am not a fan of that mechanic.


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Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.

This is too powerful. A $4 action that comes with a gold is not offset by by the silver gain. Embassy also gives other players a silver, and that's just because the action is good.


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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.

This card is balanced and neat. I like it.

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Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.

The action is powerful enough in the right deck without the mediocre on-buy effect. I would like this card at $5.


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Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

I have no idea if this is balanced, but the thrown together concepts actually form an interesting and cohesive card. This needs play testing, but I like it.

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Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

There is a lot going on here, and I am not sure if the card is interesting enough for it to be worth it.


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Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.

As I said before, +Buys on the bottom is not my thing. This card is well-made, though.


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Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.

The Curse-type debate has waged for a long time, and this card does not seem worth bringing it up again. I am confused as to why I would buy this card.


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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province.

The top attack is already one of the strongest $4s available. It definitely does not need the bottom to make it better. I don't like the bottom, as it encourages BM too much, and doesn't add much interest to the game.


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Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.

I am wary of the gain into hand clause, as it seems broken. Other than that, this seems like a fun card.

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Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Cool cost reduction mechanism, but I actually think this encourages gaining not as good cards in the same vein as Indulgence, albeit through different means. The card seems balanced, though. I like it, just maybe not for the set as a whole.


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Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.

This card is a so weak I would almost never buy it. I don't think it is worth having an entire card for the few situations where I would. Also, it is just the Walled Village of buys, so it doesn't feel very original to me.


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Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.

I like this "buys on demand" concept better. This card would cause some interesting strategic and tactical decisions, and it is well designed too. I really like this card.


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Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.

Another card where you want a ton of copies of it, only to power it up. The bottom mechanic also means the pile will empty very quickly, which I think causes tempo and fairness issues, as it exacerbates the first player advantage in some cases.


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Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.

Basically an on-gain Pillage. I also don't know if I would really buy this, as I don't think wasting a buy and money on a copper is worth the onetime attack.

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Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.

Seems way overpowered, as the top is Hunting Grounds, which costs $6, and the bottom is a nerd, but not a very effective one. I could be completely wrong about this card, though.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 03:47:58 pm by jamespotter »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #126 on: September 09, 2013, 03:59:59 pm »
+1

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Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.

Feels like Island, except maybe worse and it costs $5.

I'm not sure whether it's worse than Island or not, but I'm pretty sure it compares unfavorably to both Inn and Young Witch. You don't benefit that much by enisling a Victory card when you gain this, seeing as how you have to end up with this in your deck instead.

...Okay, it's probably worse than Island.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 04:02:46 pm by AJD »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #127 on: September 09, 2013, 04:23:37 pm »
0

Reading Painful Journey was a painful journey.

Another video on it's way. I didn't speed up or anything during this one, instead I just waffled on for about 100 minutes :D. But it's probably about 1-2 minutes of processing and uploading per minute content, so don't expect the video for a few hours :(.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #128 on: September 09, 2013, 04:52:56 pm »
0

I didn't submit a card to this contest, but I was looking through these anyway and I had some opinions, so I figured I'd type them up.

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Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

Really similar to Apprentice. Better in that you only have to discard, worse in that it is only for actions and doesn't give a bonus for potion costs. But too similar and surely better, because trashing good stuff actually hurts.

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Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.

Man, this has some cool parts, but the part I bolded will make it so, so painfully slow. It's a village, and thus spammable, meaning this might take forEVER. But I like the rest of the card for the most part!

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Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.

This has some cool niche applications and is nice for 3-piling in certain instances, but in a whole lot of games this is just another estate pile, and that's not that fun. Interesting tactics involved but not an exciting effect.

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Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.

Is there no other way to put cards on your Hinterland mat? I don't know, I don't see the use of buying 4 of these just to gain a province down the road. And if the hand you put on the mat was too weak to buy province, I'm unlikely to want to take it off the mat again?


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Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.

I can't quite wrap my mind around whether this is balanced, but it seems fine and fairly interesting.

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Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

This is really, really strong. It's a warehouse that keeps a card and has a situational buff/nerf on gain. That extra card in hand makes this way better than warehouse, and warehouse is strong.

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Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.

This is...interesting. It has use for both BM and engines, I'd guess. I think it seems fine? Obviously depends on the kingdom. I'm curious how it'd play.

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Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.

A variation on cantrip mine, this seems like a theme in this contest. This seems really good! It's got a mix of a bunch of other stuff but feels fairly unique and cohesive.

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Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.

I smell a Robz. But seriously, variations of this have been circulating for a while; this seems like a good permutation. I guess one of these is bound to stick eventually. :P

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Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.

Variation on cellar that won't reduce your hand size with a semi-interesting on-gain. Really nice when you've drawn an action dead, have lots of excess money, or are gaining in the middle of your turn, but otherwise I'm not sure how often I'd really want to use it. Maybe those cases are enough.

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Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.

Maybe this would be cool as an extra pile when something else is in the kingdom, but this doesn't do enough on its own. I never really want this in my deck, having the card is just a penalty for a cute trick.

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Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Gain it after you next shuffle (or when the game ends).

Hmmmm. Cantrip trashing is powerful, but gaining it after shuffling it is a big penalty since you want this early. If you double open with this, it's as if you're gaining both on turn 3 and then turns 3/4 you can again make opening buys. This is pretty interesting but I do have doubts that it's balanced as is.

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Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

That's a lot of revealing and putting back... Idk probably too much AP. It doesn't excite me. Could trigger unwanted reshuffles for everybody.

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River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

You can only activate the bottom half with gainers in the kingdom but I guess tunnel has a similar issue. This is somewhat interesting but I think it's too good when it's good and too bland without gainers.

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Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.

Pretty cool.

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Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.

This feels, way, way underpowered for $5. Trashing one card is nice but not great (unless maybe you get a 5/2 split) and the bonus is not so strong at all. Like a LOT weaker than warehouse and it's terminal. This would probably be quite interesting at like...$2? It might be a nice opener.

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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

Too weak. The bottom line is a huge, huge penalty and the top half is not much better than like Mandarin and Harvest.

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Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.

This is likely a fine approach to a silver flooder but silver flooding doesn't interest me all that much, sorry. :-\

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.

I expected that this would have something to do with junking or trashing, but discarding vp and curses is cool territory. This does feel a little swingy due to when you might draw it but I think the bottom half is meant to offset that.

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Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.

This is actually pretty cool. If you just bought something nice, this lets you cycle to get to it faster, which is a theme of Hinterlands. Not sure exactly how it'd stack but I like this.

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Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.

Not a huge fan of the simple 4 VP for $6.

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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

If this is a pun on mil(l)itia, well done. This seems reasonably comparable to University, I think it's alright.

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than it.

The person with the lucky 5/2 buys this and on turn 3 draws 8 cards. Too swingy.

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Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.

This is kinda cool. Note that the reaction effectively only nets one more $ since you have to keep the card in hand to get it. Still, this is neat.

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Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.

It's probably fine.

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Wayfarer
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ euqal to its cost in coins.

This is neat, I like this. It gives extra money on play but not an extra buy, which means having more of these in play is good for getting the full benefit of the on-gain.

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Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.

This doesn't feel like a thrilling lab variant.

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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.

Pretty similar to tunnel, but this still seems really cool! It's a nice "defense" against junkers but also might tempt you to buy a copper to get the Gold as well. I'd have to test it to see whether it's worth getting as a defense

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Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.

This seems neat and not probably not broken, except for maybe the scaling thing in multiplayer.

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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You my put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.

Super Sage. Let's you draw one copy of whatever action you what. That's too unrestricted, this is a lot better than Lab. Also, AP.

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Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.

Broken. A high enough density of this will let you draw your entire deck pretty reliably whenever your opponent gains a victory card, since you can keep revealing Pastures in reaction to the same gain as long as you have them.

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Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.

Workshop Scout. Not much new going on, though Scout's main effect does sorta lend itself to being a bottom line of something...

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Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.

Very strong, but with a huge penalty. Hard to gauge its power but it probably is verging on too much in things like draw-to-x. Still, kinda makes me want to try it.

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Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.

This is neat. The top and bottom half are both interesting and unique effects. I feel like the bottom could be worded better, but I like this card. Totally good for setting up megaturns but you'd have to have like a lot of copies of this, and it's not that strong on its own. Still might be a concern, tough to tell.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you gain a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

Sorta like a reverse haggler that can whiff and doesn't give you any vanilla bonus. It might be good but I'm not a huge fan.

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Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.

Essentially lets you pick up a copy of anything in your deck, I just think this is way too much for a $4 card.

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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.

So you can ideally actually gain a card costing up to $6 with this if you plan it out right. Pretty cool I suppose. Some neat tactics there, though it might get confusing.

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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.

I think there's a mistake here, this should cost $.99.

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Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.

Not super interesting.

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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.

Ok, seems like a nice little TfB.

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Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.

Top half is maybe ok for gaining but it is pretty unreliable unless you have just provinces, and then it's so good. As for the bottom half, besides duchies how often am I going to want to withhold something just to gain another copy? Maybe if I drew something dead or was overpaying.

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Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

Doesn't thrill me but probably fine.

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Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

This is usually going to be gaining estates, which is really not strong. Really unsure this needs to cost $5...

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Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.

This is a lot like Vendor. It might be better but I still don't think it does enough on its own to really justify a kingdom slot.

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Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.

This is a mess on a number of levels...It's maybe a nice idea but doing more with curse "subtype" would take a LOT of careful playtesting to get just right, and would likely still be situational.

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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province.

Wow this is so strong. And doesn't scale well. Free provinces thrown in with Gold buys? This should not cost $4...

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Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.

This might just work! Feels like a nice direction to take the village-with-a-bonus.

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Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Interesting, but pretty swingy. I play this and reveal curse, you play it and reveal province.

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Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.

If this were a cantrip it might be great, if a little boring. As it is this would only be good if it were the only +Buy on an engine board.

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Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.

Ok there are at least like 3 cards with the vanilla bonus +1 Action +1 Buy. That's like the most boring vanilla bonus there is! A cool bottom half isn't enough to really redeem a super boring card. But without another way of getting something else onto your sawmill mat it's not exciting. This might be ok at $1.

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Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.

This is pretty cool, I like it.

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Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.

I've used this name! :D This is a really strong attack, but it IS a one-shot that puts a copper into your deck. In a multiplayer game this might get wonky with the first player to buy this getting to hit everyone and then later buys in the same round being much weaker. This seems alright though.

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Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory card costing less than it.

This seems usually better than Hunting Grounds, for $5. You can usually buy province after +4 cards, so the bottom line is usually a buff (not sure this was the intention).
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #129 on: September 09, 2013, 05:00:51 pm »
+1

I think I will skip the attempt at formatting responses that I used last time.  I also forgot to put in a disclaimer for the first contest, but it was OK because I didn't talk up my own card at all.  But hey, disclaimer -- one of these cards is mine.  And I might actually talk it up, I haven't decided yet. :P

(Now, after having gone through all the cards, I'll say that there were many that I think looked alright but which I just did not like personally.  No knock on the card -- it's just a matter of personal taste.  Also, I just don't like Workshop variants. :P)

Edit: And I see that some cards have been updated... I will look into those a bit later.

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Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

Apprentice that discards instead of trashes (and doesn't care about Potion cost).  Not that much on theme... I suppose it helps deal with a large deck?  It's probably too powerful.  Yeah trashing is good, but TfB do better when they trash expensive things.  The drawback is, of course, that most expensive things are cards you'd prefer to keep.  Palanquin lets you have the benefit without the drawback of losing those good cards.

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Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.

Village with filtering and on-buy -- fits Hinterlands.  Putting a card anywhere in the deck is fairly novel -- Stash, but for whatever card you find.  Probably you would put a good card back on top, or a bad card on the bottom if you flipped two bad cards.  But still, neat.

The on-buy is a fairly popular idea, but it has a different function here.  Usually this concept is used on a cheap card such that the bonus gives you a net increase in money.  Here, the card costs $3 but only gives you back $2.  Effectively, you get Tribe for $1 without needing a buy.  But for that effect you do need to discard a card.  I wonder if this is too strong, but the discard certainly helps temper it.

All in all, pretty neat.

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Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.

I saw Robz already pointed it out, but this is broken.  Trashing 3 Provinces is just ridiculously powerful and swingy.  An easy fix is to not allow it to trash Victory cards.  With that change, I am not sure of its power, but it would be fairly interesting.

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Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.

Odd, and a bit similar to another fan card I have seen recently.  Not much else to say.  It is fairly interesting and probably difficult to use optimally.  I like this implementation though.

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Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.

So this is just non-terminal buys at first.  After you gain a Victory card, it is like a Bridge for Victory cards.  But if you gain more Victory cards after that, it further reduces cost.  Seems like it could be very powerful.  It's a weak opener though (don't want to buy VP early), so the $3 cost is fine.

A potential problem is how quickly it can snowball.  Highway-Highway-3x Pilgrimage gives a total of 7 Buys.  Buy an Estate (free from Highways) and the Pilgrimages reduce VP card cost by $3.  Now Duchy is free.  Buy that and Province is free.  So those 5 cards would allow you to buy Estate, Duchy, 5 Provinces.  This seems nearly as potent as the classic KC-Bridge megaturn, but easier to put together.  Maybe not an issue -- you still need a way to get the cards together.  But if it is a problem, it can be fixed by making it non-terminal or providing fewer Buys.  I like the concept.

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Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

A non-terminal mini-Embassy.  It is questionable whether the Copper gift is an attack... but since it's on-gain, it sidesteps that whole debate, ha!  It would play differently from Embassy in that it doesn't increase your hand size, but the heavy filtering is nice.  It looks pretty good.

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Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.

So TA lets you get more TAs easily.  I don't know how to feel about that.  I suppose one would want to use it to gain villages to create a draw engine?  Might be alright, but it doesn't click for me.

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Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing excatly $3 more than it.

On-buy Mine.  Once in your deck, it's a cantrip that is sometimes a Peddler.  Looks alright, and the name fits (recalling Mine).  Maybe "Mountaineer" would be better.

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Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.

Probably works fine, but I am just not personally a fan of "VP cards for money".  Not sure why I don't like that concept.

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Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.

Cellar with +1 Card to start.  The extra card should actually make a fairly big difference.  I think that's a fine effect that hasn't been used yet.  Not sure if I like the on-gain though.

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Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.

Once in your deck, it is just a Ruined Village.  Why do that?  Ruined Mine or Ruined Market fit the concept better, I think.  The on-buy is a little more interesting, in that it just lets you buy more things that turn (net +1 Buy).  Pretty handy, and I like the idea. 

I am worried that it may be broken.  Of course the cost needs to be low (if it's expensive, the cost to get Vendor probably means you don't have enough money left to make use of your extra Buy).  But if the cost is low, it might be too easy to use it to run out piles.  With just two Highways in play, you can empty Vendor and Estates.  Raising the cost only makes the Highway trick slightly harder to pull off while decreasing the value of Vendor on boards where it isn't otherwise broken.  Tough call, hm.

Maybe if it had a clause that limited how often you could buy it in one turn.

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Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Gain it after you next shuffle (or when the game ends).

Cantrip trashing is just too powerful for $2 without some sort of penalty.  This is even better because you are not forced to trash -- you can discard or top-deck as well.  There actually is a penalty -- you gain it one shuffle late.  I don't think this is enough of a penalty to justify such a low cost.  Increasing the cost is a fine fix.

But even with that, the card itself just isn't that interesting to me.

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Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

Spy variant, but it's a terminal.  The filtering is better than on Spy especially because it also reorganizes, and the attack is more likely to hit a key card.  Can enable some other cards like Mystic or Wishing Well (though a village would be needed).

Overall I think it is a little weak, but it has enough niche cases for it to work.  More importantly, the attack feels different than anything already existing without feeling overly complicated.  I like this a lot.

The name could be better.

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River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

The on-gain effect is only useful if you have +Buy to take advantage of it (or gain River with Ironworks or something).  River itself costs $3, which means you don't get net savings unless you buy at least two non-Victory cards after you gain River.  The problem I see is that if you want River for the VP, you are already greening and you're less likely to want to buy non-Victory cards.  But if you are still building your deck up, you don't want River to clog up your deck.  This contradiction makes the on-gain feel out of place to me.

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Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.

The cost is currently missing...

I think the card works, but I don't like it.  I don't really like that you can just duplicate a card -- feels swingy.  Admittedly, gaining a good card requires that you discard it, losing it for the round.  Still doesn't work for me.  A card that lets you gain cards to hand (be it a reaction or the gainer itself) is something else I've seen before which I am not fond of, though this implementation of it may work well.  So I don't think the card is broken (assuming an appropriate cost, and I'm not actually sure what that would be) but it's just not one that I like.

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Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.

The on-play effect is really weak filtering, but that's fine.  The main reason to buy this is the on-gain, which lets you Island a card.  I think that's a fine idea, but it is a little boring to me considering that Island already exists, and Astrolabe from the first expansion also performs a similar function.  I think this is a fine card and decently balanced already (may work at a lower cost actually), but I am looking for things that feel more unique.

For what it is, the name is nice.  Kind of a reference to Inn, Haven and Island all at once.  And I may still vote for this, depending on how many other cards are here that I like.

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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

Haggler for others... probably too weak at $5.  This same concept appeared in the Prosperity contest as well, on a Treasure card named Charity IIRC.  Somehow I like the concept less now.  Oh, how the mind works.

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Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.

It's a Silver flooder.  I think Trader and Masterpiece are enough for that niche.

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.

Takes the niche effect of Chancellor and gives it on-gain, allowing greater control of when trigger it.  That's cool.  Epic-level filtering, but swingy because it's onl good if you draw it early in the shuffle.  Mediocre effect.

Possible broken combo: Tunnel.  If I do not vote for it, Tunnel will be the reason.

I like the name a lot though.  Saw it recently (in the Bad Ideas thread?) but it actually works very well for this concept and this expansion.

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Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.

Simple enough, and probably fine.

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Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.

4VP for $6 is fine by itself.  +1 Buy on gain is marginally useful on such an expensive card.  It should probably be on-buy, to avoid confusion with Swindler.  This is boring though.

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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

Another on-gain "attack" in the vein of IGG, now Militia instead of Witch.  The effect seems too powerful though.  Gaining a $5 card is already quite good, and this is non-terminal to boot.

I am not sure but I recall reading in the Secret Histories that this concept was actually tested.  The problem is that it makes the game unfun because there is this persistent threat of a hand size attack.  I imagine that Mill on the board feels a lot more oppressive than Militia.

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than it.

Action seems neat and well balanced for $5.  Reaction seems OK as well, though maybe a little bit swingy.  I like that this hits many of the Hinterlands themes without feeling particularly contrived -- there is filtering, an on-gain effect of sorts, and it cares about Victory cards.  I'm a fan.

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Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.

You can gain a card costing up to $5 if you discard your hand (or more if you have draw).  It has self-synergy in that it "discards" other Couriers for an extra $1.  Seems decent.  Maybe a bit too similar to Vault/Secret Chamber.  Yeah this is a gainer instead of just giving +$1, but it's still pretty close.

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Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.

This is a terminal +$4, with the caveat that the money has to be distributed over other Buys.  It can combo further if you have more than 2 Buys.  They stack extremely well, almost as good as Bridge.  There is a catch built-in -- if it flips a Victory card (which includes another copy of it), it gets trashed.  That also kills the bonus, since it's "while in play".

I think it might be too similar to Merchant Guild, but having money this turn rather than coin tokens for later probably makes a big difference in how it plays.

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Wayfarer
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ euqal to its cost in coins.

Poor man's Salvager?  You need to have +Buy first, maybe from another copy of Wayfarer.  When you have +Buy, you can first buy a Wayfarer to Salvage something else.  You need to have that +Buy or else the money is wasted (though you could, of course, use it just to trash junk).  The main issue is that there is $2 of opportunity cost -- your Salvage is less efficient than an actual Salvager.  Still, this introduces some new strategic considerations.  I like it.

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Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.

Weaker lab, but it makes up for it with an on-gain effect.  The effect is just minor filtering though.  I don't think that's strong enough to justify $5, but the Lab-lite effect is too strong for $4.  Not a fan.

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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.

Tunnel variant, in that it is a 2VP Victory-Reaction also lets you gain Gold.  The reaction here is neat in that it allows you to buy a better Cache (that is, buy one Copper to gain Gold).  But it also functions as a reaction against most junkers, while also making some cute combos.  Buy Cache, get an extra two Gold.  Gain a Spoils, also gain a Gold.  The reaction is more interesting than it looks.

My biggest hang up is that Tunnel is already in Hinterlands, so I don't think the Hinterlands card should be so similar.  I will probably still vote for this though.

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Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.

Wording issue -- if the Reinforcement card cannot be bought, then it's not in the Supply.

Basically you can get Reinforcement cards by gaining Commander.  You can imagine it as if you are getting the Reinforcement card and getting a 2VP along with it.  Whether that's a bonus or a penalty is up to you to decide.  Seems OK, but not that exciting to me.

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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You my put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.

Basically "put any action card you want into your hand".  Too powerful, I think.

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Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.

Simple enough effect.  The reaction works out to be Lab+Cellar.  If you have multiple Pastures in hand, the correct play is actually to reveal and discard only one Pasture, plus any other cards you want to Cellar.  Then you can reveal the next Pasture afterwards, sifting even more through what you just drew back.  This could actually chain pretty far, because you may also draw into more Pastures.  It's probably not a big issue.  I like it.

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Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.

Workshop with on-gain filtering.  Not that exciting.

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Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.

Seems too good.  Maybe in practice it is not, but I am doubtful.  This is basically Expand, but you can't gain cards costing equal to or less than the trashed card and you sometimes gain extra cards.  There are probably some other minor differences too (e.g. it doesn't play well with Potion costs).  But yeah, it's Expand that gives you MORE cards.  Now, those cards might actually be a negative.  Maybe you get forced into some junk.  But it's doubtful.  At $4 you can get more Bargains.  At $5 you can get Duchy.  At $6 there is Gold.  At $8 you can get Province.  The worst of those is probably Duchy in the early game, except that you can just feed it to Bargain for Gold and Province and maybe a KC if it's on the board.

This just seems way better than Expand to me.

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Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.

Feels very messy, like a bunch of disparate effects thrown together.  Looks almost like an imitation of JoaT, except all the different parts of Jack actually do go together to form an after-the-fact Moat.  Maybe I am missing something here.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you gain a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

An odd kind of Haggler variant.  I don't like the name (whether it refers to dividers, swordsmen or black market dealers) but the effect is neat.  Might need some vanilla benefit, but the concept is solid.  I will likely vote for this.

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Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.

Another "find any action" card.  Not a fan of the concept.

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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.

I just don't like Workshop enough to like seeing it used as another card top. :P

The main concept is the on-gain though.  I don't like it here either.  This kind of trick sounds interesting but I think it has too much potential for confusion.  If there are 2 or more piles with an Estate on top, what happens when I Ambassador Estate -- can I return my Estate on top of the faux Estate, and from which pile do opponents gain Estates?  I also don't really like how this can mess with cursing attacks (I'll just put an Estate on top of the Curse pile).

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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.

I have no idea how this would play.  It's an interesting concept though.  Will have to think more on this later.

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Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.

Why is Workshop being used for so many of these card tops? :o

On-gain Governor for Gold... not interesting to me.

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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.

The on-gain feels out of place.  Um, I guess you can Construct an Estate into a Construct or two to make use of the benefit.  That's probably the intent.  I guess it's OK!

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Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.

I believe there is already a Missionary from the first MSDC.

The action looks too swingy.  The on-buy is another clone effect, which I'm not a fan of.

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Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

Aw man.  I read the below-the-line stuff before the rest of the card.  First thought was that the idea was really clever.  If you buy the card, it benefits opponents (net effect is that they sift a card).  But if you gain it in some other way, it's an attack!  Although on-gain Militia feels oppressive, I think the way this is done works really well.

But the card top is completely unrelated and actually kind of boring.  And a cost of $5 removes a good chunk of gainers.  This might actually be a card where the Workshop top is tolerable, especially if Chapterhouse itself cost $4.

I really love the clever on-buy and on-gain... but the top is more than just vanilla, so it might be too big a change to allow for a vote from me.  Hm.

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Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

Feels very messy to me when reading it, but it does seem to have a direction.  How would this play... even though you discard a card, you gain another card into hand.  If you sift out a Victory or Curse, you get Silver (or better) in hand, making this like an activated Conspirator.  If you [have to] discard something else, you get an Estate.  Or if Gardens or Silk Road is on the board, you just rush those.

Might be just too good an enabler for SR/Gardens.  Cantrip silver gaining is also really good, and it doesn't much mind even gaining Estates because they can be sifted away.  I might be overestimating it though?

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Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.

I think I like this.  It is similar to Vendor above, but the top portion of the card fits better and the on-gain implementation is self-limiting.  You can get your extra Buy, but you'll have a tough time emptying piles because the cost of Huntsmen increases.  There may be some rules confusion with cost reduction, but I don't think there's anything super problematic that can't be dealt with by FAQ.  I don't think the name fits.  But I like this a lot.

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Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.

Nope nope nope.

Curse type is just a terrible idea.  It requires that clarification, and then there's confusion over whether "Curses" in the action text refers to itself or regular Curses or both.  Probably both.  And the clarification says "another card" -- so if you trigger the reaction, can you gain another Painful Journey?  It's not *another* card, right?  Confusing.

Even without those issues, I am still not a fan of these cards that give you benefit for Curses.

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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province.

This is probably just a plain Curser.  Most cards costing more than $2 are too good for other players to just hand them to you.  I am not going to lose $2 from my hand AND give you a Silver to boot.  The in-play effect just makes this a Hoard for Provinces.  Overall not interesting.

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Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.

This also does the "find an action" thing, but it does it as a reaction.  That makes it far more tolerable.  Even so, it's a reaction to a pretty common occurrence and pushes players into playing more BM.  Not sure I like that.

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Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Too swingy, and I think it would be hard to track.

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Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.

This is to +Buy what Walled Village is for +Actions.  I actually quite like Walled Village, and I like this a lot too.  It's a weak $2 card that provides +Buy when you need it.  It's a good niche to fill and an appropriate level of power for a $2 card.  Definitely a fan of this.

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Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.

Remarkably similar to Courier (B) right above it.  It is also just non-terminal +Buy and it also tries to let you have it when you need it.  Sawmill costs a bit more but it is stronger in that you can get it at any time you need without hurting your hands in the meanwhile (whereas Courier is a weak card that keeps filling up a slot until you use the +Buy).  It is weaker in that Sawmill only gives you the flexibility once, after which it is just a junky vanilla card.  This is probably weak enough that it could also cost $2.

I like Courier more.  It is just more interesting, IMO.

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Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.

Stacks strongly with itself.  It's a Copper that also sifts, more so when you play multiples.  I'm not a great fan of stacking cards like this though.

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Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.

Eeep.  Pillage is so powerful that it is a one-shot terminal $5 action.  This is a $4 version of it on-gain.  It is stronger than Pillage in that it costs less and you get the attack immediately, plus being on-gain makes it easier to time it for maximum damage (not to mention not requiring an action play).  It is weaker in that it ends up as a Copper in your deck, and you don't get any Spoils out of it.  But I think it is stronger overall.  Moreover, this probably feels even more oppressive than on-gain Militia.

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Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.

Interesting.  While the in-play effect can be a benefit (late game buy Province, gain Duchy), it is mostly a hindrance.  Very simple, very elegant.  I like it.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 05:02:41 pm by eHalcyon »
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #130 on: September 09, 2013, 05:04:28 pm »
0

I don't feel like saying too much, as the number of cards here is overwhelming, but there are some serious designs concerns on a few cards.

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Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.
This is probably too strong (especially with a bunch of Tournaments in the deck or something), but even this isn't my main focus here.

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Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
While I'm scanning through these cards, I'll just say now that I think this is too strong for $4, especially with the copper thing on gain.

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Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.
Auto-pile depletion with Trade Agreement. Huge problem, especially with Watchtower, or with Graverobber or apprentice or something.

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Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.
This isn't broken, but I want to say that this is just the Secret Chamber with +1 action and Worth 1VP. Good thing this isn't the Intrigue, or else we'd have to deal with the amazing Scout synergy.

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Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.
Gaining an extra buy when you buy this makes this devastating in Goons games and Merchant Guild games. Otherwise, I mean, it costs something, so there's a limit to how many of these you can get.

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Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.
It's been pointed out that this can be gained outside your turn (say, though Swindler). The +buy (as well as +action and +coin) have this ambiguity problem with on gain effects. It can just be changed to be an on Buy effect and all is good. An okay card, btw.

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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.
Okay here! Dominion outtakes Herald issue. Donald X. had such a hard time balancing the +1 action Herald that got to be choosy about the drawn action card. This doesn't automatically play the drawn action, but with the discard-your-deck thing I expect this to be too strong.

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Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.
Wait, do you get +2 Cards just by discarding the revealed Pasture? The problem with this is that it punishes your opponent indirectly for trying to obey PPR or something.

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Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.
Remake, move over! Replacing a starting Estate with a $5, a $4, and a $3 cost card sounds way too good.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you gain a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Must be on-buy, otherwise It's broken with Border village. Buy Border village, gaining duchy, gaining border Village, gaining Duchy, gaining Border Village...A 2 pile piledrive with 1 Buy.

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Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.
Still Broken Herald.

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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
Here's the Remake that only trashes one card instead of 2. It's not imbalanced, I don't think, due to the reduced trashing, but something important to consider.

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Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.
I assume you can discard a Painful Journey for the +2 Cards. This this incorrect?

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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province.
Terrifying with a discard attack. Reminds me of Masquerade-Militia. Though, then you just get a curse instead.

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Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
Kinda strong with the free +4 cards on a $5 cost, especially for Big Money. Probably fine with +3 Cards.
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Kirian

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #131 on: September 09, 2013, 05:07:00 pm »
0

What the heck, this time I'll actually post some thoughts.

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Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

This card makes Rebuild look as weak as Scout.


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Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.

This just seems terribly complex, and I really dislike all of the "when you gain this, +1 Buy" cards... this one no less.

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Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.

No.  Interesting idea, but no.

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Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.

Interesting idea.  But unless you buy several, the first time you play the action, it's "trade your whole hand for a Silver," and it's not much better than that the following times.  It's a less flexible terminal Native Village.

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Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.

Bridge variant.  Bland but OK.

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Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

This is probably better than Lab on average, even before the attack.

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Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.

As noted above, this auto-piles itself unless re-worded.  With any village on the board, this becomes as good as Border Village.

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Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing excatly $3 more than it.

Now this... this I like.  It's a Peddler variant that's not great if you have no treasure, and it's a one-time Mine.  Interesting!

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Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.

I'm just going to buy all of these.  This might be OK if it were terminal.

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Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.

Souped-up Cellar, plus a one-time gain.  I like it.

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Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.

"I really dislike all of the "when you gain this, +1 Buy" cards... this one no less."

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Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).

I like the card without what's below the line.  I just think that part is unnecessary...

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Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

Cool mechanic.  Devastating attack when stacked, but that requires villages.

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River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Does this also cost $2 less when you gain it?  Do you have to gain it first to get the effect?  Confusing...

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Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.

I like the part below the line.  I think the part above the line needs a cost limit.

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Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.

I want a mat for this, like Island.  Otherwise, bland but OK.

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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

Another charity card.  Probably works.

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Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.

I like it, though I question whether we need another Silver flooder.

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.

Amazing in a slog, though it has the same problem as Counting House--it sucks if you draw it late (early in Counting House's case).

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Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.

Way undercosted, just the part above the line should be $3 or even $4.  This gets a bit nutty when played in quantity.

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Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.

"I really dislike all of the "when you gain this, +1 Buy" cards... this one no less."

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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

A one-time attack, plus an interesting Soothsayer-like non-attack portion.  I like it.

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.

When I read the card's name, I fully assumed it was going to be something like "gain three cards costing a total of exactly $7."  I think the reaction may be overpowered.

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Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.

I like the part above the line, but I want to know how the part below the line works.  Does it stack?  Because if so, having two of these in play is a guaranteed Province, and they're a lot easier to line up than, say, Treasure Map.  Maybe at $5?

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Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.

The part below the line seems really swingy.  Often, you don't want the effect.  Oh, and it's usually +$4 because of that effect... that's really crazy powerful.

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Wayfarer
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ euqal to its cost in coins.

More of the "add cash/buys during your Buy phase."

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Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.

Almost always better than Cartographer, and not different enough to warrant a new card.

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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.

Neat reaction.  Great against junkers, but also "gain a Copper and a Gold" is better than Cache.  I like it.

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Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.

I really don't like the extra clarification, though I can see why it's needed.  I think this will be awful on average though until the endgame, as you're buying a $5 and a dead card.

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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.

Demonic Tutor?  Probably worth $5, but not exactly novel.

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Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.

This makes buying Victory cards exceedingly dangerous; you're often (though not always) handing your opponent a $6-plus hand.  Even worse if you're buying more than one Victory card.

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Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.

A Workshop, plus a terminal one-shot Scout.  [Insert Scout joke here.]

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Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.

Trash a $5 to gain a Gold, a Province, and possibly a $7?  This is ridiculous in the endgame.  Trash an Estate to gain a Silver, one of these, and a $5?  Trash a Silver to get one of these, a $5, and a Gold?  I'll take two, please.  Way overpowered.

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Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.

I think there is a line where adding complexity to a card for the sake of novelty becomes absurd.  I think this card crosses that line.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you gain a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

A terminal, better Talisman, that sometimes fails, or a Bridge that substitutes being a Workshop for its +Buy?  Either way, I think it's interesting.

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Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.

Demonic Tutor, with a one-shot Cellar for others.  I'm just not feeling it.

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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.

Embargo-ish, though only once.  What happens when I try to Ambassador a card that is under this?  This also feels like a desperation move in the endgame:  put a Silver on top of the last Province because you only had $7 instead of $8.

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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.

Once again this is going to empty Supply piles, though at least not Provinces.  But how often are you going to play two of these?  It's all right, but I'm not feeling it.

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Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.

Interesting.  I think the +Buy is a bit superfluous, but otherwise I like it.

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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.

So, I open with two of these, then use one to trash an Estate, gain two of these, and get +2 Actions, +2 Cards, and if I'm lucky, do it a second time.  If there's a good spammable $4 on the board, this becomes crazy.

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Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.

I think this one crosses that complexity line I mentioned earlier.

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Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

Yeah, there's that complexity line again.  My brain hurts trying to sort this one out.

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Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

We've gone far beyond that complexity line now.

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Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.

"I really dislike all of the "when you gain this, +1 Buy" cards... this one no less."

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Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.

I just can't bring myself to vote for a card that has the Curse type on it.  Can you discard copies of this to itself?

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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province.

That is an incredibly powerful attack.  And it allows you to gain a Province + Gold for $6.  Not as ridiculous as Rebuild, but still OP.

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Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.

Trade a discarded +Cards for this when I have two in my hand?  Yes.  But that's not going to be common... I like this more than the other Demonic Tutor variants, but does everyone think Demonic Tutor belonged in Hinterlands?

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Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

An interesting Bridge variant.  Could be great, could be lousy... I like it.  Needs something to help track it though as it's a cantrip.

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Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.

Walled Village, but for +Buy.  I wonder if it needs something more.  Simple but OK.

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Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.

A very odd conditional +Buy.  Stockpile these if there's megaturn potential?  I'm not sure how to best use this.

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Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.

Big cycling, but doesn't increase your hand size, like Cellar and Warehouse, but gives $1 so it's like adding a Copper to your hand.  Interesting, I like it.

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Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.

I open with this every single time.  If I'm lucky, I'm P1.

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Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.


I don't think the part below the line on Hunting Grounds is enough better than this to make this only worth $5.

----

Holy crap, that took a long time to type out.  I don't think I'll do that again.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

ChocophileBenj

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #132 on: September 09, 2013, 05:07:37 pm »
0

Disclaimer : one of those are mine !
I've read all of them first, and I encourage you to write over my thoughts.
What I've seen :
=>some of 'em which get improved after time should belong to Seaside, which is the "opposite" of Hinterlands to me : Seaside is everything about "see you later" (Durations, Treasury, Sea hag, Island that improves deck for rest of game without trashing)
=>beware of "when you gain/buy this, +1 buy" effects !

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Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.
KC-Palanquin, discard province, draw it again, re-discard, re-draw, re-discard, re-draw, trashing nothing. WHAAAAT ?


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Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
I hate the on-buy part. The action part "put the other anywhere in your deck" is pretty boring : good, it will be on top. If you draw two dead cards, you will put it on bottom... and then ?


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Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.
Not for me, sorry !

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Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.
Funny name ! But seems pointless to me... if you have a mega-hand, then you won't play this. Otherwise, just grab 4 of these thingies, then 4 silvers into your hand for a Province... yes, but you need to gain those 4 hinterlands first ! How boring !

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Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.
I'm afraid too many of'em can lower the price of Province too fast !
3 of them in play + $7 + any victory card gained this turn : I buy a province for $5, another for $2, and 5 others for free !

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Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
I hate forced copper-gaining !
Action part is kinda classical.

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Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.
Gain all the trade aggrements ? Even assuming it is "another card"... might be cool if really needed and for an engine, weak on villageless boards.

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Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing excatly $3 more than it.
...a peddler that needs treasures to work. I'm not sure. Too bad the on-buy part couldn't also be on gain, with trashing a card from hand.

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Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.
Again ? ^^ I didn't like the one from the previous contest...

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Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.
Cellar + 1 card seems legit at $5, but it may be too much of a mix between it and Border Village. And, like jamespotter said, isn't that better than Cartography ? Yes, but they have different purposes, and it's mostly weaker with discard attacks !

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Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.
Ruined village that lets you trade $1 for 2 buys ? ... not for a kingdom card, sorry !

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Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).
So you take longer to gain it. Assuming you don't lose track of it, it's interesting, but better in Seaside.

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Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.
Seems legit, but boring !

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River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Could be interesting... great idea, a mix between green and non-green !

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Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.
Assuming "it" in "put it onto your deck" is the Factory, reaction part is wordy for something simple.
Action part lets me afraid for $4. How to pillage the wharves...

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Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.
Like some said, it's a weaker island on-gain, even worse it's forced !
And the action part being even weaker than Moat (except edge-cases, lol !)... you trade a dead card for a bad card !

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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.
Why an action ?

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Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.
Why not in Seaside, which is all about your next turn ?

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
Looking through deck is mostly boring. And the purpose leads to boring games, too ! Victory and Curse are there to trap you after all, deal with them when they are in your hand !

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Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.
A simple and nice card. Should be "look at the top 2 cards" maybe.

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Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.
Hate the "+1 buy", and not a huge fan of so simple-cards.

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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
Another kind of Governor except it can grant you Golds only through cost-reducers. Okay...

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
Legit to me...

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Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.
I already tried the action part of this card, and you could discard your hand for a $5 at beginning.
The reaction part is classical, so you like it, or you don't. I personally would like it at $1 only.

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Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.
Not for me, sorry !

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Wayfarer
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ euqal to its cost in coins.
Not for me, too !

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Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.
A worse laboratory with a not interesting enough on-buy effect, except sometimes in late-game...

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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
This + Watchtower = epic win ! I don't like this principle of gaining/buying a copper of a gold !

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Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.
But can they be gained in another way of gaining Reinforcement ?
I dislike adding new cards into deck, so... not for me, sorry !

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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.
+1 action, put any action card from your deck into your hand... warps too much game for $5.

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Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.
Interesting reaction part, but maybe too swingy... sometimes you hope he is gonna buy it, he won't !

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Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.
Lol ! A workscout !

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Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.
Whaaat ? So you trash a starting estate for a silver (or a $3), a $4 and a $5 ? And you are not allowed to have big hands ? ... not for me, sorry !

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Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.
Lots of words for something simple. I like the "discard to bottom" part, though.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you gain a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Wooow, no action part, only a "while this is in play", the first time I see this !
Should be "buy" instead of "gain", otherwise, just check out Border village...
But if you compare it to Haggler, you exchange $2 to gain for free a card costing up to $1 less than the card you bought, which isn't even a victory card. But you don't benefit from +$2. Okay... what is better ?

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Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.
Just like Midnight Gathering... warps too much game, too !

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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.
Mechanical, I hate this mecanical !

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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.
Who will even buy this ? Gain it, lose one card, play it, lose another card, replay it, at least you gain a card...
And 2 another thingies : "when you gain this" means if you gain this without wanting it (Swindler, Jester...), then you'll look foolish + on-play part should be above the line.

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Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.
The most powerful "cheaper gold" (cache, contraband, mandarin) I've seen so far, even though the gold isn't the card itself !

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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
A KC into two provinces ? A scout into 2 powerful $5 ?
On-gain effect isn't interesting enough to me...

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Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.
Swingyness again...

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Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
Action part is interesting ! First time I see "draw until you have X" and then "discard" !
I hate on-part, though !

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Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.
... too complicated action part !

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Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.
Not for me !

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Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.
Breaking rules with cursed types ? Well...  not for me !

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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province.
Oddly enough, I like the action part, even with no bonus. But the in-play part is just a joke !

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Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.
Like the action and reaction part, but not the on-gain part.

Quote
Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Should be an attack. And too swingy, too, because you have to get cards that make you interested.

Quote
Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.
So you keep this nearly-dead card in hand until you want to use your 2nd buy ? Is it a joke ?
Should belong to Seaside.

Quote
Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.
Like above but in reverse... and may be interesting only in big-big-money games with no other source of +buy !

Quote
Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.
Oasis that grows up when played several times. I don't like it...

Quote
Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.
Pillage again !!!

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Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
[/quote]
Could be interesting (junk your deck at start) if it were "when you buy a card that is not a victory card"


LOL ! While I was writing it, 5 replies, and when I re-clicked to submit it, another reply !
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #133 on: September 09, 2013, 05:13:44 pm »
0

Quote
Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.

Lab with a slight nerf, but an on-gain effect. It is probably fine, but doesn't excite me all that much. It would be a good buy most of the time, like Lab.
"Discard a card" is more than a slight nerf to Laboratory, whose only function is to increase your handsize.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #134 on: September 09, 2013, 05:15:28 pm »
0

Quote
Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.

Very strong, but with a huge penalty. Hard to gauge its power but it probably is verging on too much in things like draw-to-x. Still, kinda makes me want to try it.
The penalty doesn't seem all that huge.  If you're starting from a 5-card hand, then you're only discarding one card.  And unless you trashed Copper, then you gained at least 3 decent cards on your turn, and maybe bought a fourth.  I think this card will be too strong.
Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

This is usually going to be gaining estates, which is really not strong. Really unsure this needs to cost $5...
I think $5 is a very reasonable price here.  Whenever it connects with a victory card, it gains a Silver to hand, and it's a cantrip, which is pretty strong.  Plus it's like a $5 Border Village in terms of the on-gain effect.  The jump from $4 to $5 is bigger than the jump from $5 to $6, but the top-decking is nice.  And if you don't have a victory card/curse in hand and it's not end game, no one's making you play it to gain Estate.  Also, there's a weird crazy strategy you could do where you get a lot of Barns, then get Estates whenever they whiff, so that they're more likely to hit.  Probably not a good idea though.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #135 on: September 09, 2013, 05:21:07 pm »
0

Is Palanquin really as overpowered as people are making it out to be?

If you discard a $3 is a Stables where you lose an average action instead of a copper. If you discard a $2, its even worse.

If you discard a $4+, sure its better but you are now probably losing a reasonable strong card.

I mean yes, its too strong. Put Peddlers in the game and it is crazy powerful. But I don't think it would always be a game breaking must buy like some people are claiming here.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #136 on: September 09, 2013, 05:23:41 pm »
0

This is really just a list of cards that sounded unbalanced to me, and could be easily compared to something familiar. I have most likely been scooped on everything I've written.

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.
Okay, you can't say strictly better around this crowd without first defining a poset on all Dominion cards, but come on. 90% of Apprentice's job is crazy nonterminal draw for putting your deck into your hand, and 80-90% of the cards that will help you do that are actions. This removes the interesting part of Apprentice, but doesn't add anything in return.



Quote
Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.
I really like this card, but the more I think about how I'd use it, the less useful it seems. Native Village gives me the option to keep stacking cards before I pull them out, and gives me +2 Actions for my current. For $4, I'd want this to be nonterminal and gain me Silver on play (perhaps to the mat after the swap, so I'm tempted to play it more than once). It's wonky enough that you could only use it to boost a future turn at the expense of your current one, and they certainly don't stack well in multiples. I don't think either change would be out of line, and doing both would make the cost appropriate.



Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.
Does this need "in your Buy phase" anywhere? It just doesn't sound right as written.



Quote
Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.
Does not compare favorably to Island or Inn/YW.



Quote
Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
A lot of people like IGG in this contest, and now I wonder if they were really looking for a legal way to make an unmoatable attack. Here the self-synergy is pretty obvious (Militia them the first time, then Margrave until the Mills are gone) but with an attack like this, I'm worried that every game will turn into 'piledrive Mills, then turn on Duchys and Estates'. It's certainly interesting, but it needs a playtest more than Philanthropist did.



Quote
Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.
Does the one-time mini Cartographer really justify pricing this the same as Lab? Same as above, not rhetorical, I'm honestly curious. It sounds like the sort of thing you buy for the effect, and take the card as a bonus.



Quote
Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
I thought this was very clever as an alternative Tunnel, but I don't think there's any room for it with an identical card already.



Quote
Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.
Pretty cool. I would actually like this better if the number of cards did scale; both for uniformity and to avoid the main problem with IGG games. If someone in a two-player game wanted to piledrive 8 Commanders, then there would still be two reinforcements, and no one would be snorting up two piles twice as fast as they should. Similarly if three players all really wanted the bonus cards, there'd still be two Commanders you'd have to buy before the second pile ran out.



Quote
Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.
Not only can this turn $5 cards into Provinces, but it gives you a Gold as well. If you play Expand as your first action, you'd end up with three cards anyway instead of two. again I do math for a living I know what a poset is okay



Quote
Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.
Love this. I can honestly say my only complaint is that I would rather this be two cards because that would be twice as good as one. I like $2 cards, and each effect could probably support a $2 cantrip or something similar on its own.



Quote
Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.
Not even going to try to figure out which edge cases break the rules, and clean-up could turn into a nightmare. My main concern is that it does Embargo's job worse. If somebody Embargos Mountebank or some other power $5, you have to make the decision of whether that Curse is worth it. Here, the decision isn't even available. Sure, you could buy the top card, but that helps the next player, not you. You buy the Rats, player 3 buys that Mountebank, and then player 1 buys another Wagon just to piss you off. If there's anything on the board Rats level or worse, then the Embargo penalty is '-$4 -1Buy gain a crap card' instead of 'gain a Curse'.



Quote
Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.
Unmoatable cheap Pillage that gives you a junk card in return . . . not sure that's entirely balanced. Could be, I just have no guess for it.


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Tables

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #137 on: September 09, 2013, 05:30:59 pm »
+5

I didn't think Palanquin was quite as broken as people are making out. Being limited to actions is a big penalty - while it might well eventually lead to deck-drawing goodness, it'll take a bit of time to get the action density for it. I do think it's probably a little too good though, especially as a mid-late game pickup.

Also I notice that LFN actually changed my card a little in the re-wording, and made it better as a result. A shame he didn't rebalance it...

Oh, and I do suggest people are careful about reading cards. When you have something complex like Barn it's easy to get confused with what the card does and pretty forgiveable, but calling a card broken because you didn't read a single word out of 10 words is kind of bad. It happens to everyone, sure, just make sure to pick up on it before you vote I suppose.

Edit: Also remember that cards can be tweaked! If you think a card idea is really awesome but the card itself is broken because it's Silver + benefit at $4 instead of $5, or instead of being Copper + benefit, go ahead and vote for it. Those tweaks are easy. Better to have interesting cards which are adjusted later than just mediocre ideas that are balanced immediately.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 05:33:37 pm by Tables »
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #138 on: September 09, 2013, 05:37:36 pm »
+1

Woah, look at the third definition of fence (from thefreedictionary.com:

3.
a. One who receives and sells stolen goods.
b. A place where stolen goods are received and sold.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #139 on: September 09, 2013, 05:38:13 pm »
0

Edit: Also remember that cards can be tweaked! If you think a card idea is really awesome but the card itself is broken because it's Silver + benefit at $4 instead of $5, or instead of being Copper + benefit, go ahead and vote for it. Those tweaks are easy. Better to have interesting cards which are adjusted later than just mediocre ideas that are balanced immediately.

I am going to second this with one caveat. Cost tweaks are in some sense the easiest changes to make, but if you think the cost needs adjusting by more than $1, something is wrong and that can reflect poorly on the idea.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #140 on: September 09, 2013, 05:38:57 pm »
0

Edit: Also remember that cards can be tweaked! If you think a card idea is really awesome but the card itself is broken because it's Silver + benefit at $4 instead of $5, or instead of being Copper + benefit, go ahead and vote for it. Those tweaks are easy. Better to have interesting cards which are adjusted later than just mediocre ideas that are balanced immediately.
This, this, a thousand times this. My favorite card here is Hinterland, not because it's good as-is but because of what it could be. I'll post in more detail about my favorites later.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #141 on: September 09, 2013, 05:43:01 pm »
0

Also, I have updated Fence so that it activates when you buy a card rather than when you gain one. This time it wasn't a typo on my part, but it's an obvious mistake that I should have caught and I'd rather have a reasonable card on the ballot than an obviously-broken one. "Obviously-broken" as in it can run out a few piles with Border Village, not "obviously-broken" like Palanquin. That kind of "obviously broken" is valid.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #142 on: September 09, 2013, 05:45:06 pm »
0

Edit: Also remember that cards can be tweaked! If you think a card idea is really awesome but the card itself is broken because it's Silver + benefit at $4 instead of $5, or instead of being Copper + benefit, go ahead and vote for it. Those tweaks are easy. Better to have interesting cards which are adjusted later than just mediocre ideas that are balanced immediately.
This, this, a thousand times this. My favorite card here is Hinterland, not because it's good as-is but because of what it could be. I'll post in more detail about my favorites later.

Well that's fair I guess, but I think Hinterland needs like a lot more than mere tinkering. It's just flatly terrible as written.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #143 on: September 09, 2013, 05:47:45 pm »
0

Edit: Also remember that cards can be tweaked! If you think a card idea is really awesome but the card itself is broken because it's Silver + benefit at $4 instead of $5, or instead of being Copper + benefit, go ahead and vote for it. Those tweaks are easy. Better to have interesting cards which are adjusted later than just mediocre ideas that are balanced immediately.
This, this, a thousand times this. My favorite card here is Hinterland, not because it's good as-is but because of what it could be. I'll post in more detail about my favorites later.

Well that's fair I guess, but I think Hinterland needs like a lot more than mere tinkering. It's just flatly terrible as written.

Agreed, agreed. But even with a lot of tinkering, the core mechanic is what I find compelling, and that wouldn't change. If it wins (and I hope it does), it would almost definitely be changed (after a cursory test to make sure it actually sucks in practice).
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #144 on: September 09, 2013, 05:48:10 pm »
0

Quote
Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.

So these can just auto-pile?  I don't like that...it means that if you have $5 and a Trade Agreement in play at the right time, the game ends one pile early.  I mean I guess that's a pretty specific situation, but that might make it even weirder...do I empty the second pile, hoping my opponent doesn't have $5 and a Trade Agreement?  I don't really like it, but maybe it's not broken.

Totally missed that.  TA in play, gain a TA, gain another TA, etc.  Easy fix for this issue is to make it "when you buy".

Quote
Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.

So the Reinforcement cards are in the supply and can be gained by other cards, just not bought.  I think I've seen this card or something very similar to it somewhere before, and I like it a lot.

Oh, they can still be gained.  So the wording issue I thought I had found is not actually an issue. :P

Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

It's worth noting that these can auto-pile with just one Highway or Bridge in play, and even top-deck themselves while doing it.

Nice catch.  I think that's an issue.

At the request of the author, I have changed Artefact's wording back such that when you buy it, it will eventually make its way into your discard pile without you actually ever gaining it.

Weird... I can't think of an interaction where that even matters.  I guess you can't Trader it away.  You can't Watchtower it.  Anything else?

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

Didn't even get past the first one yet, OMG this is so ridiculously unbalanced. You just buy this and only this. Play Palanquin, discard Palanquin, get +1 Action +5 Cards??? You will be drawing your whole deck with like 3 of these. It's not even terribroken, it's just broken.

I was going to say "Strictly better than Apprentice" but then I would have to qualify it with "when there are no Potion cards in the kingdom" and also be prepared for all those edge cases where you actually want to trash a card instead of discarding it (Rats, etc.). So I'll just almost say it, instead.
Apprentice doesn't have to trash action cards...

I missed that too, but it still seems too good to me.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #145 on: September 09, 2013, 05:49:19 pm »
0

Edit: Also remember that cards can be tweaked! If you think a card idea is really awesome but the card itself is broken because it's Silver + benefit at $4 instead of $5, or instead of being Copper + benefit, go ahead and vote for it. Those tweaks are easy. Better to have interesting cards which are adjusted later than just mediocre ideas that are balanced immediately.
This, this, a thousand times this. My favorite card here is Hinterland, not because it's good as-is but because of what it could be. I'll post in more detail about my favorites later.

Well that's fair I guess, but I think Hinterland needs like a lot more than mere tinkering. It's just flatly terrible as written.

It's a one shot Chapel that gains you a Silver, and gives you +$ endgame if you really need it, doesn't seem terrible to me. If anything it might be a bit too good.

Unless you mean effect wise, and effect wise it's tricky to change it nicely.
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jamespotter

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #146 on: September 09, 2013, 06:04:12 pm »
0

What is it that people see in Hinterland? (That's a serious question.) To me, the concept seems really weak, even for a $2 card.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #147 on: September 09, 2013, 06:08:08 pm »
0

Edit: Also remember that cards can be tweaked! If you think a card idea is really awesome but the card itself is broken because it's Silver + benefit at $4 instead of $5, or instead of being Copper + benefit, go ahead and vote for it. Those tweaks are easy. Better to have interesting cards which are adjusted later than just mediocre ideas that are balanced immediately.
This, this, a thousand times this. My favorite card here is Hinterland, not because it's good as-is but because of what it could be. I'll post in more detail about my favorites later.

Well that's fair I guess, but I think Hinterland needs like a lot more than mere tinkering. It's just flatly terrible as written.

It's a one shot Chapel that gains you a Silver, and gives you +$ endgame if you really need it, doesn't seem terrible to me. If anything it might be a bit too good.

Unless you mean effect wise, and effect wise it's tricky to change it nicely.

I'm not sure 1-shot Chapel IS very good. And it lacks Chapel's flexibility, sine you just have to send your hand over to the mat. The Silver in puts in your hand on that turn is probably useless, unless you play other coin-generating cards before terminal Hinterland.

Assuming you put a band hand onto the mat, Hinterland is now a totally dead card (you probably won't ever prefer that hand to the one you have).

Trying to tuck a good hand away on to the mat seems like a whole lot of trouble for no reason.

Yeah, I still say pointlessly weak.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #148 on: September 09, 2013, 06:25:31 pm »
0

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.

This card confuses me. I understand the purpose of the "when you gain a victory card" clause, but it seems a clunky solution. Also, I think this card might be too good in multiples, or in combination with other cost reducers. The +1 action makes it easily playable, and the +2 buys is really good, especially at $3. Now that I think about it though, the card itself is fairly weak, and is almost useless except late in the game, when the low price won't matter to you as much. Overall, I think I like this card, but it will need some playtesting to see if it creates broken combos.

I think it does create a possibly broken combo with Highway (see my post), but it should be easy to fix by tweaking the vanilla bonuses.

Quote
Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.

This feels a lot like tunnel, with the whole "Victory card that gains gold" thing. It might be overpowered, however, because it lets me buy a gold+copper for $0, when gold+2 coppers costs $5.

That's a good point, hm.

Quote
Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you gain a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

This is broken, as it will allow you to gain a whole pile of $5s and the Border Village pile. It is also odd because it has no "Action effect".

Whoa, totally missed this bug with Border Village.  Easy fix is "when you BUY a card".

Quote
Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

This is really, really strong. It's a warehouse that keeps a card and has a situational buff/nerf on gain. That extra card in hand makes this way better than warehouse, and warehouse is strong.

Hmm, maybe it IS too strong.  I thought it looked OK at first, but the comparison with Warehouse makes it iffier.  $3 and $4 are not so far apart.  It might be too weak for $5 though.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #149 on: September 09, 2013, 06:31:03 pm »
+1

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.

This card confuses me. I understand the purpose of the "when you gain a victory card" clause, but it seems a clunky solution. Also, I think this card might be too good in multiples, or in combination with other cost reducers. The +1 action makes it easily playable, and the +2 buys is really good, especially at $3. Now that I think about it though, the card itself is fairly weak, and is almost useless except late in the game, when the low price won't matter to you as much. Overall, I think I like this card, but it will need some playtesting to see if it creates broken combos.

I think it does create a possibly broken combo with Highway (see my post), but it should be easy to fix by tweaking the vanilla bonuses.

You don't even need Highway.  Play four Pilgrimages.  You have 9 buys.  Buy an Estate, reducing Victory cards by $4.  Buy another Estate (for free this time).  Now Provinces are free.  Buy 7 of them.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #150 on: September 09, 2013, 06:32:33 pm »
+1

About Hinterland:

Without +1 Action, it's boring card. Even if buying a bunch of them and then using them to trade out for a Province hand were a good idea (unlikely), the fact is you'd be playing a boring, monolithic strategy. With +1 Action, you can afford to buy other interesting terminal Actions and Hinterland becomes a support card. In short, Hinterland seems like a supporting card to me, and it needs +1 Action to fill that role. With +1 Action, you aren't afraid to put Action cards on your mat, because you know you'll be able to take them off and play them (or at least one of them).

It should also do something when you don't want to swap so that it's not just a dead card in your hand when you don't swap. The author was thinking of adding an option to gain another Silver to your Hinterland mat, and I think that sounds great.

So I'm going to operate under the assumption that Hinterland actually looks like this:

Quote
Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Choose one: Gain a Silver, putting in on your Hinterland mat; or swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.

This version seems potentially very interesting to me. You can buy a couple of them (or buy one and play it) and get two Silvers on your mat. At that point, swapping starts to be an interesting decision. Although you could just leave crap on your Hinterland mat, using like a pseudo-Chapel, that's probably not optimal. For one thing, eventually you'll have enough Silver built up that you're willing to take the crap back with it. For another, you can start using the mat for more interesting things, like storing terminals until you have a village to go with them.

Example: On one turn, you have a hand of [Silver, Copper, Copper, Hinterland, Smithy] and you have three Silvers on your mat. You might want to store your Torturer because before long you'll get a hand that contains a Village and a Hinterland, at which point you can play the Village, then play the Hinterland to swap the Smithy (and other cards) into your hand.

It's such an exotic card that I think I'll have to playtest it before deciding whether or not to vote for it. But I think it has a lot of potential.

Soon I'll type up something on my other favorite submission, Mill.
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Tables

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #151 on: September 09, 2013, 06:37:52 pm »
+1

Video!



Note: One of my cards is in there, and this was made before a few edits were added.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #152 on: September 09, 2013, 06:52:02 pm »
0

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

Didn't even get past the first one yet, OMG this is so ridiculously unbalanced. You just buy this and only this. Play Palanquin, discard Palanquin, get +1 Action +5 Cards??? You will be drawing your whole deck with like 3 of these. It's not even terribroken, it's just broken.


I was going to say "Strictly better than Apprentice" but then I would have to qualify it with "when there are no Potion cards in the kingdom" and also be prepared for all those edge cases where you actually want to trash a card instead of discarding it (Rats, etc.). So I'll just almost say it, instead.

Edit: misread. I agree with Robz, though.


To defend Palanquin a bit here... I don't see how it is broken, maybe a little overpowered.  Play Palanquin, discard Palanquin is like trying to line up Treasure Maps, not to mention the opportunity cost of not buying other $5-costers.  It's not as easy to use (early-game anyways) as Stables, for example, since you don't start with any actions in your deck.  It's a strong card for sure, but I think with a small nerf it would be an interesting drawing card.

Totally disagree. This will be a must-buy, and strategically uninteresting. Just keep buying this, and other actions if you can't afford this, and you will be drawing your deck in no time at all. It's much easier to line up then TMap, because the card itself draws cards even when they don't connect (presuming you have other actions). And the thing with TMap is, extra copies make it more likely that you connect once, but then you get rid of the primaries and probably won't connect again. Here, you will keep connecting over and over again.

Sure, Palanquin is probably a little broken as-is, but I don't think as much as you make it out to be, as others have commented. Also, this is one card that could maybe be more balanced (and weaker) if it cost less instead of more. If this costed $3, it wouldn't be near as OP to stack your deck with them - you couldn't discard them to themselves for as good of an effect. If that's not enough, you could take away the +Action, but that might be overkill.

I'm not saying the card is good or even that I like the card, but I don't think it's more broken than a lot of the other submissions.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #153 on: September 09, 2013, 06:52:31 pm »
+1

Quote
Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you gainbuy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

I think mended Fence is almost strictly worse than Haggler? With mended Fence, you can buy an X and gain an X+1. With Haggler, you can afford to buy an X+1, and gain an X—or gain an X–1, or buy an X+2, or.... The only cases where Haggler's not strictly better are if X is a Victory card, and edge cases where it matters whether you're buying something or gaining it (e.g., X is Noble Brigand).

Fence might be more interesting with +1 Buy.

Quote
Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.

This is strictly better* than Develop.

(*I mean, not technically, but you know what I mean.)

Quote
Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.

Walled Village, but for +Buy.  I wonder if it needs something more.  Simple but OK.

I think the something more that it needs is +1 Card, and to cost $3? (I mean, Walled Village and Treasury also have +1 Card.)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 06:54:51 pm by AJD »
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #154 on: September 09, 2013, 06:56:55 pm »
+1

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

Didn't even get past the first one yet, OMG this is so ridiculously unbalanced. You just buy this and only this. Play Palanquin, discard Palanquin, get +1 Action +5 Cards??? You will be drawing your whole deck with like 3 of these. It's not even terribroken, it's just broken.


I was going to say "Strictly better than Apprentice" but then I would have to qualify it with "when there are no Potion cards in the kingdom" and also be prepared for all those edge cases where you actually want to trash a card instead of discarding it (Rats, etc.). So I'll just almost say it, instead.

Edit: misread. I agree with Robz, though.


To defend Palanquin a bit here... I don't see how it is broken, maybe a little overpowered.  Play Palanquin, discard Palanquin is like trying to line up Treasure Maps, not to mention the opportunity cost of not buying other $5-costers.  It's not as easy to use (early-game anyways) as Stables, for example, since you don't start with any actions in your deck.  It's a strong card for sure, but I think with a small nerf it would be an interesting drawing card.

Totally disagree. This will be a must-buy, and strategically uninteresting. Just keep buying this, and other actions if you can't afford this, and you will be drawing your deck in no time at all. It's much easier to line up then TMap, because the card itself draws cards even when they don't connect (presuming you have other actions). And the thing with TMap is, extra copies make it more likely that you connect once, but then you get rid of the primaries and probably won't connect again. Here, you will keep connecting over and over again.

Sure, Palanquin is probably a little broken as-is, but I don't think as much as you make it out to be, as others have commented. Also, this is one card that could maybe be more balanced (and weaker) if it cost less instead of more. If this costed $3, it wouldn't be near as OP to stack your deck with them - you couldn't discard them to themselves for as good of an effect. If that's not enough, you could take away the +Action, but that might be overkill.

I'm not saying the card is good or even that I like the card, but I don't think it's more broken than a lot of the other submissions.

I may have overstated how "broken" it is in terms of "warped." I still think it is quite "broken" in that you are really just going to want to buy this, this, and more of this, and it will be really strategically uninteresting.

Of course there ARE other $5 cards where you do want to generally buy as many as possible--your Governors and Hunting Parties and Minions--but I think all those are at least a little (or in Governor and Minion's case, a lot) more complicated than Palanquin.

I mean, this card is just an Apprentice where you don't eat through your deck. And you get to use each Palanquin as both a discarded-card-for-+5-cards, and as a card that activates that.

Actually, I think I have the answer for this guy. It can't discard other Palanquins. That probably fixes it, right?

You're welcome.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #155 on: September 09, 2013, 06:57:03 pm »
0

Quote
Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Should be an attack. And too swingy, too, because you have to get cards that make you interested.

Quote
Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.
So you keep this nearly-dead card in hand until you want to use your 2nd buy ? Is it a joke ?
Should belong to Seaside.

Why should Stranger be an attack?  It does not harm the other players at all.  It's like Tribute.

Courier fits fine in Hinterlands.  It helps you deal with a big deck, like Scheme.  It has an effect related to gaining other cards, but it's a different take on it.  Rather than doing something when you buy another card, it does something UNLESS you buy another card -- that is, it can top-deck itself unless you've used an extra Buy.  It's subtle, but it fits just fine.

Quote
Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.

Lab with a slight nerf, but an on-gain effect. It is probably fine, but doesn't excite me all that much. It would be a good buy most of the time, like Lab.
"Discard a card" is more than a slight nerf to Laboratory, whose only function is to increase your handsize.

It's a slight nerf because you can discard junk pretty often.  Usually discarding an Estate and keeping an Estate in hand amount to the same thing.
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #156 on: September 09, 2013, 06:58:15 pm »
0

Incidentally, I think I know who made Palanquin, based on the name. We shall see if I am right.  ;D
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #157 on: September 09, 2013, 07:01:07 pm »
+1

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.

This card confuses me. I understand the purpose of the "when you gain a victory card" clause, but it seems a clunky solution. Also, I think this card might be too good in multiples, or in combination with other cost reducers. The +1 action makes it easily playable, and the +2 buys is really good, especially at $3. Now that I think about it though, the card itself is fairly weak, and is almost useless except late in the game, when the low price won't matter to you as much. Overall, I think I like this card, but it will need some playtesting to see if it creates broken combos.

I think it does create a possibly broken combo with Highway (see my post), but it should be easy to fix by tweaking the vanilla bonuses.

You don't even need Highway.  Play four Pilgrimages.  You have 9 buys.  Buy an Estate, reducing Victory cards by $4.  Buy another Estate (for free this time).  Now Provinces are free.  Buy 7 of them.

Well, you still need $2 to start it off. :P

But I absolutely think it's fixable with simple tweaks, either making it terminal or limiting it to +1 Buy.

Incidentally, I think I know who made Palanquin, based on the name. We shall see if I am right.  ;D

I don't think the name gives any clue.  I posted Palanquin (along with several others) as a name suggestion in this thread. :P
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #158 on: September 09, 2013, 07:02:54 pm »
0

Ah, ok.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #159 on: September 09, 2013, 07:03:12 pm »
0

"It's so hard to find good palanquin bearers these days."
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Schneau

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #160 on: September 09, 2013, 07:06:42 pm »
+3

Quote
Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Choose one: Gain a Silver, putting in on your Hinterland mat; or swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.

Those changes make it an entirely different card. In fact, the Silver gaining is probably now the most important part of the card. In its original form, it was probably worse than Scout, and even the +1 Action only gets it into the Scout territory. Sure, I'm all for voting for cards with interesting concepts, but this seems like too big of a change to assume to vote for, and would feel entirely different than the submitted card.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #161 on: September 09, 2013, 07:09:43 pm »
0

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

Sadly too much of a monolithic strategy. If you have it say "an action card other than Palanquin" i think it's too expensive.


Quote
Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.

Classic on-buy-new-buy card. Too good with cost reducers, obviously. Would have to say "if you payed 3$ for this" or something along those lines.


Quote
Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.

Interesting idea, but i would have wished for something different on top.


Quote
Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.

Interesting, but strange. And weak, i'm pretty sure. It resembles Native Village a bit, and if i'm not mistaken cards with Mats weren't allowed...?


Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.

So this is essentially a worse, but nonterminal Bridge. It's okay for megaturns, i guess, and if you were planning to flood your deck with Victories.


Quote
Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

Aha, the other Embassy :)
I kind of like it, though it's obvious where the inspiration came from.


Quote
Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.

So, this works like Border Village, just that you have to pay 1$ less for it and get a card worth 4$, instead of one worth 3$... I'm not sure whether this should be considered unbalanced or whether enough 5$s are terminal to make this seem about as bad. Hm... I think it's too good.


Quote
Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.

Interesting. A Smithy on buy and a Cantrip/Peddler depending on your treasure-ratio. It seems to encourage big money a bit, but as it itself is an action i guess it's okay. The fact that the treasure can be in play makes it nice. I kinda like it.


Quote
Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.

Self-synergy is a nice thing, but i feel this should be a Treasure. I also think i have seen a few cards with that idea before, and i'm still not perfectly convinced it works... Meh, i guess i should give it a chance and maybe playtest it.


Quote
Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.

Whoever came up with that name? :D
So, this is a better Celler, i see the thematic cave reference. Like stuff like that. It's also a bit like a worse Border Village effect on gain. Oh, and it's also a sifter, very Hinterlandish. So it fits nicely, i just don't know how this would play. Interesting.


Quote
Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.

Ah, reminds me of one of my cards. Buy this for an additional buy. Hmm... I think it can easily cost 0$ and will still be a tad too weak, though. After all, you give yourself junk for that buy - it could at least be less horrible than Ruined Village (as that is a Ruins i don't count if for "strictly better" consideration).


Quote
Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).

Hmm... So if i buy this, i have to wait an additional reshuffle to claim it. I guess as a nonterminal, nonmandatory trasher, it is really too good for a regular 2$. A bit like Inn or Border Village, where price and on-play also don't match up - just the opposite way. Also, you want to gain this without buying it, which i think is pretty "hinterlandish".


Quote
Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

So this is to Spy what Noble Brigand is to Thief. Quite different than Spy, though. Hm... I think it's probably too weak.


Quote
River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Funny, this is the counterpart to that other card that reduced costs when you gained it... I think i like the other a little bit better.


Quote
Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.

A bit like Mint, just for Actions too, without discarding and nonterminal. I guess it's okay... The self-synergy is nice.


Quote
Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.

An instant island, i see. I think the on-play is a bit too weak, though. Also it kind of resembles Inn, which is funny considering the card's name :)
I'm just kidding, i think it's okay. Doesn't introduce new things, but still nice.


Quote
Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

I feel this is a bit too weak. Considering Mandarin offers +3$ with something that can be a strategic option and an on-gain that can work as one, too, this doesn't compare too good. it also kind of reminds me of one Prosperity card. Maybe for 4$?


Quote
Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.

Simple. No concerns. Maybe could even do as a 3$, considering it's not "strictly" better than Woodcutter. Ah, probably better not.


Quote
Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.

Nice name. Interestingly, the on-gain counters the on-play. It's probably not worse than Navigator, but i'm not exactly sure how big your deck has to be for this to pay off more...


Quote
Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.

Up to now i didn't notice any card where the on-gain felt tacked on, personally. Here i'm not absolutely sure, but as it draws and also gives a buy, i think it's okay. Not thrilling, but not bad.


Quote
Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.

Even another on-buy-buy? Has the same issues with cost reducers, i'm afraid, and the top is... standard.


Quote
Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

I think Donald said something about the horrors of on-gain discard attacks... I've come to acknowledge it's probably not the best idea...


Quote
Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.

This definately has to be more complex ;)
I'm not so sure the halves synergize, actually.


Quote
Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.

Too good, and also probably makes for a monolithic strategy. Play this, discard all, gain this. Repeat, then use it to gain Duchies. Repeat for third pile (preferably Labs or sifters).


Quote
Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.

What is this wickedness? A foreign game? Seriously though, i have no clue how this works out. If you buy two cards, it's +4$, if not, it's a Woodcutter. The danger of it trashing itself is not very nice to play with, i think.


Quote
Wayfarer
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to its cost in coins.

What's up with all this money and buy during the buy phase? I think the name needs something economic to fit. Other than that, probably balanced... I guess...


Quote
Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.

Another top-decker on gain... I don't even know what Sultan and Laboratory have in common. If it was Vezir, okay... Don't get me wrong, i guess it's fine, it's just not... the card i have been eagerly awaiting, you know... It's not the only one here that feels like that.


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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.

Another Tunnel, just for junkers instead of discarding... What i don't like is that, regardless of my money, i can always just buy a Copper and discard this. Provided good trashing, this leads to a game where money doesn't matter until it's time to get the Provinces, i'm afraid...


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Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.

I know this, i'm pretty sure. Basically this is "when you buy a randomly chosen 5$, gain a little Duchy for free"... I think it feels less confusing with this approach, but i guess it doesn't become more interesting, either...


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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.

So like a Band of Misfits that can impersonate 5$+ cards but in order to do that, you have to own them... I wanted to say no to this, but i guess it's not so bad after all. :)


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Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.

Meh. Another 2VP-Reaction... I guess it's okay, but again, it doesn't feel like something we have been missing up to now.


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Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.

Hmm, a Workshop with a Scout effect. Balanced, i guess. Again, not thrilling, but it would be unfair to say anything's wrong with this entry. Other than it being not really needed, that is.


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Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.

It's interesting, but i think it might be too weak. Then again, i've been wrong about things like this before.


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Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.

I don't really get what this does. Also i'd like to know whether the last part is still under the condition of not putting the card in your hand... If it is not, i think it's probably a bit too strong (compared to Chancellor or even Scheme), if it is, i guess it's okay.


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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you gain a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

Endless circle. All i have to say. I gain a Silver, and because of that, a Jack of all Trades, and because of that, a Duchy... and a Gold, and a Forge, and a Province, and a Platinum...
Make it on-buy and maybe give it a +1$ or even an additional +1 Buy, and it's probably allright.


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Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.

Hmm, so it allows playing a better card that you have every time you play it. Considering the on-gain is an advantage for other players, i think it's fine. I guess i kind of like it...


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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.

Why would i want to do that? To force somebody to buy that Scout before getting his City...? I think it's a pretty unfair thing to do, and if it's intended to synergize with the top - it doesn't (unless you count the card can gain itself). I'm all for wacky things, don't get me wrong, this just is a bit too unfair. It causes a player who really wants that City to think whether he actually wants to buy that Scout - leaving the possibly last City for somebody else or maybe have it covered by another Scout again - or just not go for it anymore. For that matter, it's much worse than Embargo, where you still get what you want, just wih a penalty. Sorry.


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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.

I don't think its going to be better than Woodcutter often enough. Of course, in a perfectly greased engine you can play loads of these, but then again, somebody who has a perfectly greased engine even though some of it's parts are weak, terminal 6$ cards, doesn't really need any more support, does he?


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Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.

Another gainer... I somehow feel some of the themes here appear a bit to often... Here, the halves don't synergize. It's also not that interesting.


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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.

Hmm... It trashes less cards than Remake, but still gains two... When you trash a Copper with this, it's better than Remodel. When you trash an Estate with it, it's about as good... For cards costing more than 2$, it's not actually striclty worse. I kind of like the idea, even though it's another gainer. I'm just not convinced it's balanced, yet.


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Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.

Whenever i see a card with a religious motive, i think it has to be a trasher, because Bishop and Chapel (and somehow Altar) are. On the card: I think it's too weak. Reveal an Estate, and it basically junks yourself. Reveal a Duchy and this is a Workshop that doesn't give you a choice. So in order for this to somehow work, you need to either get many Provinces, Nobles, Harems and whatnot, or trash your starting Estates and at least get some of them. I think getting expensive Victory cards is usually the goal anyway, so what this card does is not helping you get there, but further rewarding you for being successful. I kind of like the on-gain, though.


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Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

Is this meant to be Charterhouse?
It somehow resembles Margrave on-buy, and i guess having many of this is a nice way to sift through your cards. I guess it could do with a few words less, though. For example, i'd combine on-buy and on-gain, and if only to save a dividing line.


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Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

So, if i discard a Victory or Curse card, this is a better Oasis. If i don't, this is a weaker Oasis, as long as you consider "gain an Estate" (which this card is usually going to be) a penalty. Ah, i just saw this makes the next Barn better than Oasis again... I'm still not convinced it needs to cost 5$. it's probably fine without the on gain-which feels a bit tacked on, anyhow. As a sifter (and gainer), i think it's hinterlandish enough.


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Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.

Ah, a on-gain-buy that does not ignore the problems of cost-reducers. I think it's still a bit problematic with cost reducers, especially Highway and Princess which are not event-triggered like Bridge, but condition-triggered. So even if i play princess and then gain a Huntsmen, she's still in play. I guess rules could just adress those things directly and say the order of play matters, but it's definately a drawback... I still think it's the best try to solve the on-buy-buy concept here.


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Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.

First of all, can a Painful Journey make you gain a Painful Journey? It's "another card", just not "a differently named card". Also, the clarification would have to be on the card, because unlike "there is one Chromosome Mat for each player" it's not something you could know from having the actual card and material in hand. Also, it's weak, like almost all curse-supporting cards i have seen yet. Even when constantly junked with Curses, i wouldn't want to buy this. Sorry.


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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province.

First i thought they just discarded it and wondered whether the wording was to not trigger Tunnel... Then i saw it actually steals cards... I guess the top part would arguably be okay, because after all it's weaker than Sea Hag, which is a (very powerful) 4$. The bottom part is absurd, though. Going from 6$ to 8$ is immensely much to do, and just giving that to you just for having a 4$ in play... Then again, if it gave +2$, you could buy it yourself, but then it would have to be a 5$... Considering this card not only curses opponents (or steals their cards), but also is even better than +2$ on several occasions, i'd make it a 5$ at least.


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Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.

I think the reaction alone would have done it. It wouldn't be hinterlandish, but a better card. Like this it has two dividing lines and feels like... Too much. The on-gain feels too much like it will be useless most of the time.


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Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Scales very much with increasing number of players. A very interesting concept, but i really don't like that it's swingy and the mentioned scaling. I guess it can be changed in a way that preserves the spirit and works, though. Maybe make the player to your left reveal 2, like with Tribute?


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Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.

I think this would work nicely as a cantrip for 3$. A lot like walled Village, but nice. Just not very hinterlandish, i'm afraid.


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Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.

Another one with a mat... I was so sure they weren't allowed for this contest... Ah well...
This is yet another on-buy-buy, just so that you can keep it for later turns. Hm... I think the fact that you have to spend 3$ on it makes it a bit too weak, though. For 1$ or maybe 2$, i'd definately buy it sometimes. welp, probably even 3$ will be okay sometimes... I'd still rather price it at 2$, though.


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Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.

Okay, a Copper that lets you sift if you have more of them... The first is basically an Oasis... Ah, now i see the theme :)
Fancy that. Yeah, i think i really like it.


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Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.

Argh, Pillage meats Ill-Gotten-Gains... Another one of Donalds-rejected on-gain discard-attacks, only worse than the other... I know i'd hate playing with this card, even though it's probably correctly priced. Just so anti-fun...


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Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.

Not "strictly" better than Council Room, but very, very close to it. I guess all those Victories can be a liability, but i still think it's too good... Also the name should reflect the similarity.
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #162 on: September 09, 2013, 07:10:37 pm »
0

At the request of the author, I have changed Artefact's wording back such that when you buy it, it will eventually make its way into your discard pile without you actually ever gaining it.

Weird... I can't think of an interaction where that even matters.  I guess you can't Trader it away.  You can't Watchtower it.  Anything else?

Possession?

Edit: Oh, and Haggler. But definitely Possession, where the possessor may steal all your Artefacts.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 07:32:45 pm by Asper »
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Aidan Millow

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #163 on: September 09, 2013, 07:17:50 pm »
+2

My thoughts (prior to reading everyone elses):
Disclaimer: None of these cards is mine, what happened to my submission will be explained later.

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Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.
Much too strong.

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Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.
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When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
As a village you want to be playing this a lot, it would be very annoying to put one of the cards anywhere in your deck again and again. Also the on buy is probably too strong.


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Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.
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When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.
I love this.


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Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.
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When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.
Weird and probably marginal.

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Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.
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While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.
I don't like on-gain cost changing

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Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.
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When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
I submitted: "$4, +2 cards, +1 action, discard a card" but asked LFN to pull it after he pointed out that DXV had already tested it and found it too strong. This is quite a lot stronger.

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Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.
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While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.
First person to play this and hit $5 gets the entire pile if they want it. Probably needs to be “less than this” but then it’s just border smithy.

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Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.
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When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.
I like the idea but it could be too strong.

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Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.
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Worth 1 VP.
I want a hand of 5 of these to give me enough for Colony. It’s interesting enough though, if maybe somewhat weak at $5.

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Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.
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When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.
I like the idea of a non-terminal sifter that retains hand size and this looks like a good way for it to work. The on gain seems a little tacked on though.

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Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action
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When you buy this, +2 Buys.
I find this cute and I want to like it but it’s still too easy to empty the pile with cost reduction.

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Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.
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When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).
Should be “gain” rather than “discard,” otherwise I like it.
Edit: Oh, right, Possession. That makes sense.

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Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.
Marginal effect and slow to resolve, I don’t like this one.

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River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.
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When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
I still don’t like on gain cost reduction, nor do I like 2 Vp cards for $3.

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Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.
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When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.
It’s interesting but it’s a lot of hoops to jump through for gaining copies of cards.

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Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.
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When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.
You want to use this to replace a victory card with a card with a marginal effect. Seems like a $3 cost to me.

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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.
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While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.
It’s Charity [A] (after the fix that most of us wanted) with a lesser effect on a (cheaper) terminal action. Seems too weak to me.

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Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.
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While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.
I don’t see anything wrong with it but I’m just not enthused.

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.
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When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
Probably shouldn’t exist (or should at least be reworded in an awkward manner) because Tunnel. Also seems a bit weak when compared to Scavenger.

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Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.
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While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.
Pretty sure choosing how many to discard with an effect like this hasn’t been done at less than 5. I’d personally prefer this if it was the Survivors effect.

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Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.
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When you gain this, +1 Buy.
I don’t like having a large chunk of unconditional Vp at $6 like this.

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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.
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When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
Should this really be nonterminal? Otherwise I quite like it.

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.
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When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
I feel like a couple of these could draw your deck too easily.

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Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.
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When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.
This has even less reason to be non-terminal than Mill. I like the effect less overall as well.

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Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.
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Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.
Interesting but possibly too swingy.

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Wayfarer
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.
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When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to its cost in coins.
I don’t like having cantrip +buy at $2. Possibly at $3.

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Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.
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When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.
At $5 this effect is probably a tad weak but the on gain makes it reasonable.

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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.
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When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
Is this the third $3, 2vp card in this contest?  That aside: Tunnel and Market square need help from at least another card to trigger. This doesn’t and when you get multiples the drawback of having to buy a copper quickly becomes negligible.

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Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP
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When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.
This is pretty cool. I feel like the reinforcement pile shouldn’t be part of the supply though.

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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.
I like this a lot at $6. I think it’s too strong at $5.

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Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.
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When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.
I like this.

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Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.
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When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.
I’m not sure workshop is the right on play effect for this card. I like the scouting on gain though… Oh wait, Gardens/Silk Road rush, that works.

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Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.
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When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.
Given that playing a card and trashing one already leaves you with 3 cards in hand (unless you’ve already drawn, which is feasible), I don’t feel that the drawback is enough to cost this at $4 (and I’m sceptical at $5 too).

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Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.
As written this is much stronger than vanilla peddler and should probably cost $6. The writing should definitely change though: as it stands there’s no reason to initially put the card you reveal into your hand as opposed to discarding it and picking it up after getting the money; 3 options here, remove the +$ outright, move it to after the + action or set the card aside then discard it after getting a card from your discard pile (and forbid getting copies of it from the discard pile too). Whichever way this is turning into something very similar to Midnight Gathering and I like it less.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
I’m conflicted here: On the one hand, the action without an on-play effect is horrifying. On the other, it’s kind of awesome. What I’m not conflicted about is that this is much worse than Haggler; it’s probably okay at $4.

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Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.
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When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.
This is like Midnight Gathering (including needing to cost more) but less interesting to me (whoever designed Midnight Gathering is pretty lucky that it turned up first of these things in the Ballot).

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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.
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When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.
An effect like this seems like it should be on a promo card to me. I think this might be something that would be fun the first time you played with it and just get annoying afterwards.

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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.
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When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.
I like this but I’m unsure about the balance.

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Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.
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When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.
Feels bland and disjointed to me.

Quote
Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
Interesting, possibly a bit too strong but you can’t really change it without wrecking it.

Quote
Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.
Probably too strong if you can trash your estates.

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
Might be a little too strong, more importantly it’s convoluted and the potential to actually reduce your opponents’ hand sizes won’t come up often.

Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.
This just has too much going on for the sake of going on.

Quote
Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.
Insert cost increaser argument here.
I’d rather this was only ruined village on play (see vendor) but the increasing cost fixes the “buy them all” problem quite nicely. Finally I don’t really like the flavour here: I imagine the designer got to Huntsmen from woodcutter via snow white but then, woodcutter doesn’t fit the +buy flavour very well either.

Quote
Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.
Do we really need a card that gives us power for having curses?

Quote
Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province.
Over the line: I’d rather it say “costing three or more” but this is an interesting attack (if maybe a little too strong).
Under the line: What?! What?! No!

Quote
Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.
I don’t like the name or the on gain effect (the latter is only relevant with a non-terminal gainer (or a village followed by a gainer I suppose) and the former is a bit oxymoronic and too much like nomad camp)). With a different name and the on gain effect gone, it might be a bit too powerful at $4 but it’s worth looking at.

Quote
Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Swingy but pretty cool.

Quote
Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.
Using the walled village mechanic for +buy is a good idea but the card needs to be something that you actually want in your hand. This isn’t.

Quote
Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.
This is a novel idea for a +buy card. It could probably cost 2 though.

Quote
Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.
It’s a hand size reducer that get better (buy sifting more) in multiples; that isn’t going to work out well.

Quote
Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.
You junk yourself with what is effectively a copper to do the pillage attack. This seems really weak for $4. The problem is, if it cost less I think it would let whoever got an engine running first run everyone else out of the game by buying 1 each turn.

Quote
Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
This is interesting. It’s a powerful effect that sabotages you while you build but turns into an advantage when you start greening. I’m a bit concerned about the balance.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 07:19:23 pm by Aidan Millow »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #164 on: September 09, 2013, 07:23:04 pm »
0

At the author's bequest, I'm adding a clarification to Pilgrimage. It reduces costs each time you gain a Victory card, even within the same turn.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #165 on: September 09, 2013, 07:25:27 pm »
+1

Quote
Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Choose one: Gain a Silver, putting in on your Hinterland mat; or swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.

Those changes make it an entirely different card. In fact, the Silver gaining is probably now the most important part of the card. In its original form, it was probably worse than Scout, and even the +1 Action only gets it into the Scout territory. Sure, I'm all for voting for cards with interesting concepts, but this seems like too big of a change to assume to vote for, and would feel entirely different than the submitted card.

That's fair. I'm guessing it won't win, but I hope the author resubmits an updated version for the second Hinterlands contest.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #166 on: September 09, 2013, 07:31:24 pm »
+2

Quote
Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you gain a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

This is broken, as it will allow you to gain a whole pile of $5s and the Border Village pile. It is also odd because it has no "Action effect".

Whoa, totally missed this bug with Border Village.  Easy fix is "when you BUY a card".

It doesn't even need Border Village for that. You gain a card, react to that gaining - by what? By gaining. What stops you to react to that, too?

Quote
Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.
It’s a hand size reducer that get better (buy sifting more) in multiples; that isn’t going to work out well.

Not a handsize reducer, but an Oasis.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #167 on: September 09, 2013, 07:34:13 pm »
0

Quote
Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you gain a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

This is broken, as it will allow you to gain a whole pile of $5s and the Border Village pile. It is also odd because it has no "Action effect".

Whoa, totally missed this bug with Border Village.  Easy fix is "when you BUY a card".

It doesn't even need Border Village for that. You gain a card, react to that gaining - by what? By gaining. What stops you to react to that, too?

The lack of cards for $7, or failing that $10.  ;D
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #168 on: September 09, 2013, 07:46:14 pm »
0

OK, yeah, Consulate is way too powerful for $4.  Wonder if it works at $5.

Possession for Artefact -- good call.

River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
I still don’t like on gain cost reduction, nor do I like 2 Vp cards for $3.
[/quote]

What's wrong with 2VP for $3?  There's Tunnel.  Or do you mean that you don't like there being two different VP cards costing $3 in the same [Hinterlands] set?

Quote
Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you gain a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

This is broken, as it will allow you to gain a whole pile of $5s and the Border Village pile. It is also odd because it has no "Action effect".

Whoa, totally missed this bug with Border Village.  Easy fix is "when you BUY a card".

It doesn't even need Border Village for that. You gain a card, react to that gaining - by what? By gaining. What stops you to react to that, too?

Yeah.  Yeah.  "When you Buy a card" fixes that too though.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #169 on: September 09, 2013, 08:06:31 pm »
+4

The real issue with the old Fence is if you had multiple in play.  Play x Fences.  Buy 1 Estate.  Gain x $3 cards.  Gain x^2 $4 cards.  Gain x^3 $5 cards...
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #170 on: September 09, 2013, 08:13:15 pm »
0

The real issue with the old Fence is if you had multiple in play.  Play x Fences.  Buy 1 Estate.  Gain x $3 cards.  Gain x^2 $4 cards.  Gain x^3 $5 cards...

And, with Border Village...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #171 on: September 09, 2013, 08:19:35 pm »
+5

The real issue with the old Fence is if you had multiple in play.  Play x Fences.  Buy 1 Estate.  Gain x $3 cards.  Gain x^2 $4 cards.  Gain x^3 $5 cards...

And, with Border Village...

Along with Death Cart, Cache, and Poor House.

Also, Quagmire is ridiculous with on-trash bonuses. 
Quote
Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.
Tear through Fortresses, adding them to your hand.  Cultists, drawing 9 cards.  Or Catacombs, gaining more Quagmires.

If I'm player 1 and open with at least $3, I'll buy a Quagmire.  Trash 3 Catacombs.  Gain 3 Quagmires.  Trash 6 Catacombs and 3 Provinces.  Gain 2 Quagmires and 4 Estates.  Trash the remaining 5 Provinces.  I win 7 to 3.

Edit:  Oh, Quagmires are worth Victory points themselves?  I don't even need to bother with the Estates.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 08:25:49 pm by SirPeebles »
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #172 on: September 09, 2013, 08:38:36 pm »
0

I am not going to comment on all of the cards, but I do have some things to say about my favorites and some others.

General comments: First, I just don’t like most of the workshop-like cards this time. Not sure if it’s the cards aren’t interesting or it’s just my preferences this time. Second, I don’t like the cards that give cost reduction or extra buys upon gaining or buying the card. I’ve playtested a few cards in this category in the past and decided I don’t like the idea anymore. It doesn’t work as well as you think it should. This goes doubly for the cards where the ability only matters when you already have extra buys. Third, several of the cards or the below the line abilities are just way out of whack power-wise even if you try to pick an appropriate cost. I just don’t want to comment on them all. I am sure others will.

Quote
Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.

This is almost a favorite for me. I really, really like the “swap hand with mat” mechanic. It reminds me of Native Village, and you know what? I want the Native Village set-aside option and rules above the line, as well: “Choose one: Set aside the top card of your deck face down on your Hinterland mat; or swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.” And you have to add the bit about being able to look at your cards on your mat and adding them back to your deck (or not? -- not sure what the intent is) at the end of the game. And boy that’s a whole block of text, with a (necessary?) below the line ability to boot which is not a good thing.

This will be very tricky to make work, but I like the idea.

Other than having a below the line ability, I am not sure if it feels Hinterland-y enough, either. Whether I vote for this will depend on how much I decide to weigh “interesting experiment” versus “represents Hinterlands.” Also, this is uses a new mat for each person -- another negative.

Quote
Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

I like several of the sifting cards this time around. I think sifting represents Hinterlands well. This one is Embassy x Warehouse with an interesting on gain externality. It’s like giving your opponents +$1, but more interestingly since there is clog potential as well. It’s sometimes good for your opponents and sometimes bad.

The potential concerns noted above about power are easy fixes in playtesting: if it’s too strong, either make it $5 or kill the +1 Action. This is not obviously overpowered to me, though. (Based on comments below, this is probably overpowered at $4 and one of the tweaks will be needed.)

Quote
Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.

The wording is awkward and I shy away from cards that make you reveal your hand every time. This would be better if it read “You may reveal 3 Treasures from your hand, if you do, +$1.” Even so, I don’t know if the one time Mine is interesting enough to add to this sometimes-Peddler. And really, who wants a Peddler in a treasure deck, anyway? I don’t think adding this to any kingdom really adds much of anything.

Quote
Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.

Ok. So this is very similar to many ideas that were submitted to last year’s contest at various points in time, and very similar to cards I either created, or really liked. I think the consensus was that it worked best as a Treasure, but I do personally like it as an Action, too.

The problem is that as an Action that gives +1 Action every time, this is crazy strong with cards like Crossroads. I playtested a variant of this last year that only gave the action the first time you played the card (granted, at a much lower cost), and still, it was just broken with Crossroads. Crossroads-that card was always the backbone of the best strategy on the board. So while I really like the idea, I am concerned that even at $5, Emerald Vein is just not ever going to be balanced. In practice, making a balanced non-terminal secret chamber/vault is harder than it looks.

But, as this is one of the few fan card concepts I have enjoyed playtesting and the situations in which it’s just too strong (Crossroads on the board) is sufficiently small, as a fan card, it will probably get my vote, anyway.

Maybe make it 0 VP to weaken it some? I do like the Victory card dual flavor.

Quote
Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.

This is another sifter I really like. I am not so sure about the on-gain ability, though. I am not sure it’s enough to make this card worth $5. But cost adjustments are an easy fix. Definitely feels like Hinterlands.

Quote
Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.

The main ability seems really, really good. Like better than Inn’s on-gain ability good in too many cases. Maybe I don’t get it.

Also, I thought this was going to be a joke submission.

Quote
Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.

Another interesting great sifter. I like this, too. Might be too similar to Cartographer, though. 

Quote
Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.

This reminds me too much in a negative way of IGG. Either this is going to be really good, and you go for the rush (emptying two $5 piles) or uninteresting because the $5 card is Explorer and you will buy Duchy on $5. Actually allowing you to buy Reinforcements would fix that problem, but in any case, I think we can do better for Victory cards.

Quote
Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.

So this is in the Chancellor/Scavenger category? I like this card, but I don’t know that it feels like Hinterlands enough for me.

Quote
Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.

I REALLY like the idea of putting a card on the bottom of your deck. But I have a better idea on how to implement that mechanic and am planning on submitting it to a future week. So I won’t be voting for this, sorry. :P

Quote
Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

EDIT: Changed from "when you gain a card" to "when you buy a card".

Is this instead? So it’s an automatic Upgrade? Or in addition? Either way there’s problems, I think.


Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

The above the line ability is clever. I don’t so much care for the on-buy/on-gain abilities.

Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you gainbuy this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

This is very nice! Definitely the best of the workshop variants.

As people have noted, there is an autopiling problem, but that is because of incorrect wording. If this used the Border Village language of “gain a Victory card costing less than this” and “when you gain this, gain an action costing less than this”, etc. that fixes that problem. Easy, peasy. Gain->buy fixes it, too.

Quote
Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

I think this is the best of the cost reducers, but I don’t know if it’s interesting enough to get my vote.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 12:44:26 pm by Polk5440 »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #173 on: September 09, 2013, 08:47:09 pm »
+1

The real issue with the old Fence is if you had multiple in play.  Play x Fences.  Buy 1 Estate.  Gain x $3 cards.  Gain x^2 $4 cards.  Gain x^3 $5 cards...

This is pretty much the first thing I say in my video about it:P. Play 2 Fences. Buy an Estate, gain 16 Golds. I don't see the problem with this  ::)
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #174 on: September 09, 2013, 08:54:06 pm »
+2

Perhaps happens Artefact is discarded rather than gained to avoid triggering on-gain effects after the game ends?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #175 on: September 09, 2013, 09:07:03 pm »
0

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

The above the line ability is clever. I don’t so much care for the on-buy/on-gain abilities.

This is the exact opposite thought I had.  I find below-the-line to be clever, while the top is quite boring to me.  Why do you think the top is clever?  I may be missing something.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #176 on: September 09, 2013, 09:11:44 pm »
+1

Perhaps happens Artefact is discarded rather than gained to avoid triggering on-gain effects after the game ends?

I think that's another good reason. Imagine Feodum and revealing Trader at the end. Or revealing Trader at all, anytime. I mean, where is the card going to be after that? Will it just stay set aside for the rest of the game? That would quickly become confusing when several Artefacts were bought. Also, as mentioned, possessing a player at his reshuffle will steal all his Artefacts. Or reveal a Watchtower several turns after buying the card. Or playing a Village, then a Haggler, then a Library, having to gain a Copper... I think just discarding the card works so much better.

And it's not like you can't gain it at all. I imagine buying a Stonemason for 4$, remodeling a Copper or playing Workshops/Ironworks would work nicely with Artefact. Actually, those interactions are pretty thematic, too.
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #177 on: September 09, 2013, 09:15:03 pm »
0

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

The above the line ability is clever. I don’t so much care for the on-buy/on-gain abilities.

This is the exact opposite thought I had.  I find below-the-line to be clever, while the top is quite boring to me.  Why do you think the top is clever?  I may be missing something.

I like that it's a "draw up to X" sifter. I don't think there is one of those yet. I think the sifters really feel like Hinterlands.

I don't like the bottom because the sometimes good/sometimes bad nature seems too... artificial? I'm not sure. If it made more sense thematically, then I would be more okay with it.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #178 on: September 09, 2013, 09:15:38 pm »
0

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

The above the line ability is clever. I don’t so much care for the on-buy/on-gain abilities.

This is the exact opposite thought I had.  I find below-the-line to be clever, while the top is quite boring to me.  Why do you think the top is clever?  I may be missing something.

The top is a sifter, fitting Hinterlands pretty well. A bit like Oasis, just with a variable amount of cards. The fact that the number of cards changes makes it interesting and strategic. I'm not so much a fan of the lower part, either.

Edit: Ninja'd.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #179 on: September 09, 2013, 09:30:24 pm »
+2


Video. I missed some stuff - this WAS the first time I had looked at the things.

Biggest overall note this week: many cards didn't feel Hinterlandsy. Also, several of them had on-buy or on-gain or whatever which seemed tacked-on just to make them fit, but I don't like that. And so many workshops! Actually workshop itself is a bit Hinterlandsy to me, but whatever.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #180 on: September 09, 2013, 09:38:48 pm »
0

Biggest overall note this week: many cards didn't feel Hinterlandsy. Also, several of them had on-buy or on-gain or whatever which seemed tacked-on just to make them fit, but I don't like that. And so many workshops! Actually workshop itself is a bit Hinterlandsy to me, but whatever.

I absolutely second this opinion. The high quantity of workshops can't really be held against the cards themselves, it's not like the designers could have expected there to be lots of workshop variants in there. But the first bits certainly ring true: Hinterlands is a bit of a hodge-pot, but the majority of the on-buy/gain effects fit directly with the card, or are the main purpose of the card. Here, lots of cards have big and somewhat interesting on-play effects, but then also big and totally different on-gain effects that don't really relate.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #181 on: September 09, 2013, 09:45:39 pm »
+3

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

The above the line ability is clever. I don’t so much care for the on-buy/on-gain abilities.

Personally, I like the on-buy/on-gain abilities as an effect, but... well. I'm not sure this is a valid concern, being as this is an expansion by and for f.ds people who understand rule interactions inside and out. However:

A card like this could never be printed in official Dominion. Too many casual players (I presume) don't pay enough attention to the timing difference between "buying" and "gaining" to be able to easily understand what's supposed to happen when this card is played. In official Dominion, the fact that on-buy effects trigger before on-gain effects at least requires a two-card combo to be relevant. With a card like this, a lot of people would misinterpret the text or argue about what's supposed to happen and have to read the FAQ even to just use the card once.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #182 on: September 09, 2013, 09:48:44 pm »
+1

In general I *think* I don't like it when the main action and the on-gain/buy are completely disconnected.  But that may be incorrect.  I think usually the on-gain/buy needs to be powerful or interesting.  Not always, but usually.  And then the regular action should be relatively simple, maybe even vanilla, or else it overshadows the other effect.

I don't know, maybe it's all just arbitrary.  Some things just click and others don't. :P
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #183 on: September 09, 2013, 09:50:30 pm »
+1

A card like this could never be printed in official Dominion. Too many casual players (I presume) don't pay enough attention to the timing difference between "buying" and "gaining" to be able to easily understand what's supposed to happen when this card is played. In official Dominion, the fact that on-buy effects trigger before on-gain effects at least requires a two-card combo to be relevant. With a card like this, a lot of people would misinterpret the text or argue about what's supposed to happen and have to read the FAQ even to just use the card once.

I think this is part of what bothered me and made it seem like an artificially clever effect.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #184 on: September 09, 2013, 09:52:03 pm »
0

Quote
Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
I submitted: "$4, +2 cards, +1 action, discard a card" but asked LFN to pull it after he pointed out that DXV had already tested it and found it too strong. This is quite a lot stronger.

Oh, yeah, I remember reading that. I am now thinking that yes, Consulate needs to be at $5 or lose the +1 Action.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #185 on: September 09, 2013, 09:52:29 pm »
0

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

The above the line ability is clever. I don’t so much care for the on-buy/on-gain abilities.

Personally, I like the on-buy/on-gain abilities as an effect, but... well. I'm not sure this is a valid concern, being as this is an expansion by and for f.ds people who understand rule interactions inside and out. However:

A card like this could never be printed in official Dominion. Too many casual players (I presume) don't pay enough attention to the timing difference between "buying" and "gaining" to be able to easily understand what's supposed to happen when this card is played. In official Dominion, the fact that on-buy effects trigger before on-gain effects at least requires a two-card combo to be relevant. With a card like this, a lot of people would misinterpret the text or argue about what's supposed to happen and have to read the FAQ even to just use the card once.

I think it's a valid concern.  It briefly occurred to me when I was going through the cards but I dismissed it.  It probably matters more than I gave it credit for.  Absolutely it could be confusing to a lot of people.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #186 on: September 09, 2013, 09:53:24 pm »
0

Watching WW's video, I realised I might have parsed Courier (A) incorrectly, and I'm pretty confident WW parsed it incorrectly. In retrospect it should be: "Gain a card costing ($1 per card discarded)" while I interpreted it as "(Gain a card costing $1) per card discarded." Either way needs a wording tweak, but I'm gonna have to reconsider it now...
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #187 on: September 09, 2013, 09:54:06 pm »
+1

Watching WW's video, I realised I might have parsed Courier (A) incorrectly, and I'm pretty confident WW parsed it incorrectly. In retrospect it should be: "Gain a card costing ($1 per card discarded)" while I interpreted it as "(Gain a card costing $1) per card discarded." Either way needs a wording tweak, but I'm gonna have to reconsider it now...

Gain all the Poor Houses!
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #188 on: September 09, 2013, 09:58:09 pm »
+1

Watching WW's video, I realised I might have parsed Courier (A) incorrectly, and I'm pretty confident WW parsed it incorrectly. In retrospect it should be: "Gain a card costing ($1 per card discarded)" while I interpreted it as "(Gain a card costing $1) per card discarded." Either way needs a wording tweak, but I'm gonna have to reconsider it now...

Gain all the Poor Houses!



Y u no image?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #189 on: September 09, 2013, 10:01:02 pm »
0

You should go watch me rip into the card as a result of my misparsing ::). Explaining why the reaction won't trigger because there's normally nothing to gain etc.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #190 on: September 09, 2013, 10:06:46 pm »
+1

In general I *think* I don't like it when the main action and the on-gain/buy are completely disconnected.  But that may be incorrect.

Well, let's see.

Mint:
Mild synergy between on-buy and on-play: trashing your Coppers helps you line Mint up with your (Fool's) Gold and Platinum. On the other hand, antisynergy in that you can't just go trashing your Treasures willy-nilly on buy; Mint needs some Treasure in the deck to work at all. Interestingly, the on-play and on-buy were designed separately and combined on a single card only when Donald X realized that Mint without Treasure-trashing was underpowered and Mountebank with it was overpowered.

Noble Brigand:
On-buy and on-play are the same effect.

Farmland:
Weak synergy: the fact that it's a weak dead card (weaker than Duchy but more expensive) gives you incentive to Farmland your Farmlands that you wouldn't have if the card that had that on-buy effect was one you actually wanted.

Nomad Camp:
Mild synergy, maybe? I dunno.

Cache:
Strong synergy. The whole point of this card is to be cheap Gold with an on-gain penalty; the on-gain penalty is diluting your Gold with Copper.

Embassy:
No particular synergy, I guess.

Ill-Gotten Gains:
Strong synergy. On-gain depletes two piles at the same time; on-play facilitates a Duchy rush.

Inn:
Strong synergy. On-gain gives you a deck with a lot of Action cards concentrated in one place; on-play gives you the +Actions to play them.

Mandarin:
Similar effects, but I'm not sure how they synergize.

Border Village:
Pretty strong synergy: If you want villages, you probably want a bunch of good $5 terminals as well.

Death Cart:
Strong synergy: on-play gives you incentive to trash Action cards; on-gain gives you Action cards you want to trash.

Not going to worry about overpay on-buy effects right now.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #191 on: September 09, 2013, 10:09:07 pm »
0

It's funny, i've read several opinions about my card now. At least one was saying it was too weak, at least another one it was too strong. Personally, i didn't go into this contest without playtesting, and have come to believe it is neither.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #192 on: September 09, 2013, 10:28:04 pm »
0

Some more notes:

Quote
    Quagmire
    Types: Victory
    Cost: $3
    Worth 1 VP.
    When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.
Okay, this has been noted. But actually, the game is probably turn 1 buy this, trash 3 province; If opponent buys one, turn 2, buy this, trash 3 province. If not, still do that, then win game as soon as you can buy 3rd of these, unless opponent can get duchy first (unlikely). Best way to combat this is open 5/2. Most games ending around turn 3.

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.
While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Buying this multiple times in a turn does reduce costs each time.
So, the issue with this is that it's absolutely terrible until you hit a critical mass, where it just wins the game. Say it with me - terribroken.

Quote
Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.
When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
Someone said that this is really swingy and gave the example of a 5/2 discarding to draw 8 on turn 3. Well, if you are doing that (and you need it with 4 coppers to do so...), then you are drawing to exactly 5 copper and 3 estates (with 2 coppers left in the draw pile) on turn 3 - doesn't seem broken to me at all, from that...

Quote
Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.
When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
So, there was a comment about how cache is gold with 2 coppers, and what gives? Well, you have to have a green card around rather than the 2nd copper... still, should probably cost a little more than this, then, as you can re-use it, defend, do more than one at a time, the victory isn't always a drawback... I would really try to make sure it gets to stay at 4, because it's no fun at 5. But as cache isn't super strong, this is delayed, and there are drawbacks, I think this could work there.

Quote
    Wagon Raider
    Types: Action – Attack
    Cost: $4
    Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.
    While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province.

People keep talking about the top like it's incredibly ridiculously strong, but even if you ALWAYS take the curse (and having the option not to means it can't be as bad for your opponents as that), it isn't as good as Sea Hag.
Okay, there is the bottom.

Quote
Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.
When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.
People talk about this like it is insanely powerful, but I don't get it. You only get the attack one time. You only get the attack *one time*. Now, you do get it when you want, but it is a copper - aren't junking attacks generally considered worse than discard, even targeted? I dunno, doesn't seem better than pillage to me, and nobody cries about that. Well, let's look at it; happens right away vs later... that's a little better here, but on the other hand, you usually don't know when to time it on the opponent anyway. 4 vs 5... this is huge here. Treasure vs terminal action... well, this is good here. But. Copper vs one-shot gaining two spoils... waaaaay better for the pillage. I mean, two spoils is enough to just get pillage for to start with (though that wouldn't be stellar), plus the terminal only gets played/stuck in your hand once, this clogs you forevermore.
I don't know that I like this effect like here, but it's not at all obviously broken here.

Quote
Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
The more I think about this, the more I think it is just pretty weak. Not sure it isn't terribroken, but don't think it can be really strong. Here's the deal: let's say I buy a 6 or 7-cost. Okay, I gain a duchy. Now, would I want the duchy, straight up? Would I add duchy to my deck for free, if given the choice? Well, I think for most of the game the answer is no. But, you say, the draw helped me get to have enough money to buy such an expensive card, no? Well, for $1 less, smithy got you almost as far - and most other $5 smithy variants have some other boon. And if I'm going for an engine, the duchy gain is particularly worse. Buying anything 3-5 is even much worse - you have to gain an estate. That is so bad, I don't know - maybe you just don't even buy. Of course, there is some upside, too, endgames mostly, or slogs, but this sort of anti-synergizes with itself, and I sort think almost any other 5-cost smithy is better.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #193 on: September 09, 2013, 11:18:22 pm »
0

Some more notes:

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.
While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Buying this multiple times in a turn does reduce costs each time.
So, the issue with this is that it's absolutely terrible until you hit a critical mass, where it just wins the game. Say it with me - terribroken.

Quote
Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
The more I think about this, the more I think it is just pretty weak. Not sure it isn't terribroken, but don't think it can be really strong. Here's the deal: let's say I buy a 6 or 7-cost. Okay, I gain a duchy. Now, would I want the duchy, straight up? Would I add duchy to my deck for free, if given the choice? Well, I think for most of the game the answer is no. But, you say, the draw helped me get to have enough money to buy such an expensive card, no? Well, for $1 less, smithy got you almost as far - and most other $5 smithy variants have some other boon. And if I'm going for an engine, the duchy gain is particularly worse. Buying anything 3-5 is even much worse - you have to gain an estate. That is so bad, I don't know - maybe you just don't even buy. Of course, there is some upside, too, endgames mostly, or slogs, but this sort of anti-synergizes with itself, and I sort think almost any other 5-cost smithy is better.

Do you think Pilgrimage is completely broken, or can it be fixed with tweaks to the vanilla bonuses?

I agree on the Used Land Salesman.  I think the below-the-line functions as an adequate penalty.  Not sure if it's actually weak, but it definitely does not look too strong to me.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #194 on: September 09, 2013, 11:33:59 pm »
+1

Three more corrections:

Wagon Raider is apparently supposed to gain you a Province instead of a Gold. The original PM didn't have "instead", but I'm updating it anyway.

There's an entry I totally omitted (again). Another card named Wayfarer, which I will add to the bottom of the ballot. I would be well chuffed if Tables and WW (and everyone else) would weigh in on it.

Finally, Barn's on-gain clause has become on-buy to avoid piling issues.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 11:37:28 pm by LastFootnote »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #195 on: September 09, 2013, 11:43:21 pm »
0

And so many workshops! Actually workshop itself is a bit Hinterlandsy to me, but whatever.

This caught my attention as well. Donald rejected a one-shot double workshop card because Hinterlands has precious few $4 cards you want several of. Pretty much it's just Silk Road. So all the "Gain a card costing up to $4" submissions don't really fit Hinterlands, in my opinion.

That's one of the many reasons I like Mill so much. It gains $5 cards, and there are a ton of $5 cards in Hinterlands you want a bunch of: Cartographer, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inn, Margrave, and Stables.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #196 on: September 09, 2013, 11:55:06 pm »
0

And so many workshops! Actually workshop itself is a bit Hinterlandsy to me, but whatever.

This caught my attention as well. Donald rejected a one-shot double workshop card because Hinterlands has precious few $4 cards you want several of. Pretty much it's just Silk Road. So all the "Gain a card costing up to $4" submissions don't really fit Hinterlands, in my opinion.

That's one of the many reasons I like Mill so much. It gains $5 cards, and there are a ton of $5 cards in Hinterlands you want a bunch of: Cartographer, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inn, Margrave, and Stables.

But wasn't on-gain Militia also dropped for being unfun?  I strongly remember reading something like that in a Secret History post, probably one of the more recent post-Guilds posts.



On the newly added Wayfarer:


Quote
Wayfarer (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one costing $1 or more. Put all the revealed cards into your hand.

When you discard this from play, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper you have in play.

This usually just draws Copper (plus one of something else).  In some games it will also draw Curses and Ruins and non-Supply cards like prizes, and you can also combo with cost reduction.  Then it gains a card based on the Copper that you were hopefully able to pull up.  Seems fairly swingy -- if you draw a lot of Copper then Wayfarer can gain some decent cards.  If you whiff completely and get no Coppers, you gain another Copper.  OK, that's sort of self-synergistic.

Neat idea.  Maybe a little too luck-driven for my taste, but it's probably not too hard to mitigate that luck.  Hmm.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #197 on: September 10, 2013, 12:07:08 am »
+2

Alright, I'll do this.

I'm judging by the card's idea, since the cost can be change post-contest, but the idea can't. I'll als o be looking for how it relates to Hinterlands. I apologize in advance if I bash your card. Please don't take it personally!

Disclaimer: One of these cards is mine.

Now go! Scroll down to your card!


Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.
[/quote]
I like Apprentice, but I don't like this. Apprentice works because the card is trashed, but since the card stays in your deck, I can see a viable strategy being to just piledrive these. You could argue that this is different from Apprentice since its restricted to just actions, but not different enough for me. Also, has nothing to do with Hinterlands.

Quote
Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
That bolded part really is the card's problem. It'll take too long to resolve and has very little affect overall, I feel. The on-buy seems very tacked on and I'm not really sure what the card is trying to accomplish.

Quote
Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.
The idea isn't novel, but it could work.  The on-buy way to activate it is unique, but the top part just kills it. I'd never buy it for the effect if I was trying for an engine, and if I was trying for the rush I'd just go hardcore on these. Needs a lot of tweaks.

Quote
Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.
Hah! I like this one! A bit goofy, but unique! I can see the connection to the theme and its effect, the on-buy doesn't seem tacked on. Cool idea!

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Buying this multiple times in a turn does reduce costs each time.
Hm. A bit clunky with the whole gain then reduce, but I could see it working. Needs a few tweaks.

Quote
Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
I feel it's too similar to Warehouse to be included in the set. The Hinterland relation is there, but its an obvious knock-off of Embassy. Which may not be a bad idea.

Quote
Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.
Needs to say 'Besides Trade Agreement'. It's a cool idea, but I don't know if others will like it.

Quote
Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.
An on-buy Mine. That's cool! The action makes sense and but seems difficult to use well. I'd almost say it should cost $4 to use the action portion to it's full potential, but that may make the on-buy too good.

Quote
Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.
Really shouldn't be an Action. The effect is nice, but the synergy seems a bit too obvious. Needs to have 2 VP cards in hand to be worth the cost, and I don't see that happening until late game. And at that point you'd rather grab Duchies. Maybe it'd work at a lower cost?

Quote
Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.
So an improved Celler on top and a pseudo Border Village down below. It's alright. The two effects have no real relation as far as I can tell, but I like the top. I also don't know how often you'd have a card in your hand that you'd want to gain another copy of at the time of gaining this (especially during the buy phase. Only a couple of cases when you'd have a card in your hand that went unplayed that you'd want to duplicate).

Quote
Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.
*yawn* I've seen it before. It needs +1 Card and then a bump up $2 to be worth the purchase. And even then, I don't know if I'd buy it in most games.

Quote
Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).
So a delayed gaining. I almost decided that this should belong in Seaside, but it seems like it'd work good here too. That 'Trash it' clause makes me suspect it's too powerful since that's what Rats does, but at a much greater cost (both monetary and result of playing it). And this also has that flexibility of those other options.

I love the bottom, but the top needs to be change I think.

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Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.
Huh. Cool. A pure attack card that works both when playing in gaining like Noble Brigand. I'd rather it give a bonus too, but that may need to be a change made if it wins.

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River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.
On buy cost reducer. Neat-o! I see the interaction between effect and on-buy and the card seems like one I'd normally buy not only because on the 2VP. With lots of buys, this could be deadly, which I like.

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Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.
Sorry, but I don't think this can work. I've tried out this idea in various forms, and I've found you need an upperlimit for gaining rather than 'not a Victory card'. Plus I don't know if I'd want to discard my King's Court to gain a copy of it. The on-gain looks fun, so kudos for that!

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Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.
There was a card last contest that is very similar to this and I like it a lot better. Not much else to say.

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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.
Name's weird, but I like to effect. May need some tweaking, but there is something there and I like it.

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Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.
Well that's cool. Would I buy a bunch of coppers to topdeck some Silvers? I think yes. Synergy between effect and on-gain is there and the relation to Hinterlands is easily seen (Silver and gaining things). Fun ca!

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
Oh man I've got to hurry along. Um, I don't really like it. Seems a bit too messy and cumbersome to use IRL.

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Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.
And I thought Secret Chamber was annoying! haha, um. Yeah. Allows you to setup a better next hand the more cards you buy. Cool idea, but seems like it'd take a while to carry out.

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Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.
Nice and simple. Maybe a bit too simple. It has that funky 'This doesn't cost a buy', which is interesting on a Victory card. But I still like it alright.

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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, eachthoer player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
Hah! I have a feeling this could be eHalc's purely from the pun. Puts a nice spin on the 'Gain a card costing up to $5' idea. The bottom part obvious synergizes, but I feel like it could degrade into to Mill, you draw a card, gain a Mill, you discard a card, until the pile is empty. But maybe that is what the created intended for it to do. But I do like it.

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
The top card seems O.K. powerwise. The bottom part is interesting, but I'd probably only use it to pick up Duchy's. Which may not be too terrible. So it could work.


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Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.
I could never see myself using the top part. It simply seems to weak. The bottom part, however, seems like it could work, but may be too powerful.

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Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.
nt
Woah. Too much for me. Intended to lose its use later in the game, but has a weird way of doing it. But maybe it's not tooo bad. Overall cool card, but has a lot going on.

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Wayfarer
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to its cost in coins.
Love this on-gain! Sort of like a cheaper but delayed Salvager. The top may need some changes.

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Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.
Boring lab top part. The real meat is at the bottom. But I can see straight to the bone- this just sets up half of your next hand? That's nice, but I wish the top part was smoother.

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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
Nope. Sorry. Too swingy and messes up how curses work.

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Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.
I like this quite a bit. Its intended to pile out this and the Reinforcement pile and then something else. I like the concept of it a lot.

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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.
Nope. Sorry. Same thing as Safe House. Warps the game too much to my liking and is too OP at any cost, I'm afraid.

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Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.
Woah. This is quite nifty. Wants you to stock up on these to get them discarded, but buying them activates opponent's Pastures. Love the concept and how it synergizes.


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Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.
$4 Workshop with a scout affect on-gain. I'd probably never ever buy it, so it's a no-go from me.

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Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from their hand.
I don't like the (including you) part. The gaining this is cool, but probably OP.

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Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.
Has no relation to Hinterlands in my mind and could probably cost $2 if you knock off the last sentence, which you should anyways.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

EDIT: Changed from "when you gain a card" to "when you buy a card".
Hm. Like a Haggler, but with no bonus. I think this is too similar to Haggler to exist, sadly.

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Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.
Sage does it better and simpler.

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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.
Neat-o and can toy with the kingdom piles. I like goofy cards that aren't game breaking, but are fun. And this looks fun. I don however think the card isn't good for this contest since the top part looks tacked on.

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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.
ooooooo I like it! A community pool of cards where you grab what you need. Optimal way to play it is one after another to immediately gain that card you grabbed earlier, but even then you have to leave a card for the next player. And since the stockpile continually grows because of the on gain, it's not going to be just one card on the mat constantly swapped out. I like it!
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Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.
Bottom or top is tacked on. I can't tell. And even then, I don't know how much I like it.

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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
Similar to Develop, but synergizes with itself by increasing your handsize and action limit. I'd almost wish it'd cost $4 to allow you to trash Silvers to gain Constructs and gain that sweet bonus because as it stands you need to trash Estates or $2 cards bought earlier. Overall, I like the concept.

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Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.
uuuh no comment. I honestly don't know what to say besides it could run into the problem of Chancelloring your deck.

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Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
Clever little card. That top and bottom part rocks my socks when placed together and the separation of buy/gain is so unique. Looks fun!

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Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.
Lots going on. A bit too much for me that I can't really review it. Plus, I tend to like cards on the simpler spectrum.

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Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.
Now this is what I'm talking about. Self-balances with that continual cost influx and the top goes right along with the on-gain effect. My favorite of the 'gain this for an immediate buy'.

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Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costing less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.
Curse-type is a bad idea.

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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province.
Nope, sorry. Too swingy.

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Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.
Now this is cool. Sort of Walled Village-y with that first part, but that second part is intriguing too. Actually, it makes me think of what Walled Village should have been. Nice card!

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Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Too swingy for my taste. Should be one player that discards (to the left?) and even then tracking could be an issue.

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Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.
Hm. I wish this could be done a bit better. I like the idea of a buy when you need it, but this seems a bit too uncomfortable (for lack of a better word) by having it be placed into your next hand. I like the concept, however.

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Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.
Quite like this one. It's similar to the last one, but executed a bit better. By having it stay out of your deck until you need it, it doesn't have that awkward moment that Courier could have of all cards in hand being Courier and you can really get that buy when you need it. I really really love the concept, but I'd want it to cost $2 or give it a small boost at $3. Overall, looks like a really elegant card with some interesting tactical decisions.

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Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.
Almost needs that Rats thing of having 20 copies. But even then, this doesn't really seem Hinterlands-y and could grow in power too quickly.


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Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.
It's Pillage but without the Spoils gaining and leaves you with a Copper instead. Plus it doesn't cost an action. Naw, it's overpowered at $4 and can't work at $5 because of Pillage.

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Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
[/quote]
Good for lategame, but I wouldn't buy it early game. But man, +4 Cards is pretty good early. This actually makes it a bit tough in my mind, especially since the Victory card gain is mandatory. Nice card with an interesting choice.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #198 on: September 10, 2013, 12:07:42 am »
+1

I guess maybe the reason behind the workshop love is because it's one of the few basic card-types that's not really present in Hinterlands? Haggler is the closest to that slot mechanically, but feels somewhat different, even if it isn't per se.

Also, trying to meld on-plays with on-gains/buys is hard; a $4 or less workshop variant can always use it's on-play to provide a terminal version of it's on-gain (by gaining a copy of itself). Given that a lot of people (including me) thought of the on-gain effect first and tried to design a card around it, the appeal of "let people do the cool on-gain thing more" should be obvious.

Really, this contest has made me realize how difficult the Hinterlands design-space is to work in; leaving aside rules issues (and note that we've already had several submitted cards reveal themselves as having major rules problems as written) it's interesting to note how many of the ideas submitted have clear parallels with rejected cards from the Hinterlands Secret History. We also seem to have a lot fewer "wacky" submissions in this contest than the Prosperity contest (by which I mean cards that have somewhat strange effects, even leaving the workshop-variants aside, it seems we have a lot more vanillaesque cards).
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #199 on: September 10, 2013, 12:18:27 am »
0

But wasn't on-gain Militia also dropped for being unfun?  I strongly remember reading something like that in a Secret History post, probably one of the more recent post-Guilds posts.

Yup, i read that too. and i absolutely believe it. I think it was in an article about Noble Brigand.


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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.
While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province instead.

So, now this has become a Witch with a Thief-bane, and a conditional +2$... Seeing it like this, i think it's... Okay. I guess it's one of the cards that will be at the bottom end of the voting, though it's not actually that bad. I think it's one of those cards that had more thought flow in them than you see.


Now go! Scroll down to your card!

+1 for this alone, even though you didn't tell everyone to vote for my card (which you obviously should have).
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Archetype

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #200 on: September 10, 2013, 12:41:59 am »
0

I just realized there are like 10.8 typos in my fan card reviewing, but that thing took too long to write anyway. So hopefully everything makes sense.
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nopawnsintended

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #201 on: September 10, 2013, 01:35:38 am »
+1

I will pick three five eight (couldn't resist) cards that I like.  A couple of notes:
  • I like the idea of having a workshop variant for Hinterlands.  It's one of the easiest ways to fatten a deck, and if the problem is that Hinterlands doesn't have a lot of <$4 cost cards to gain, that's not such a problem in the Treasure Chest expansion.  Thus, I judge the cards Hinterlandsy'ness on the basis of whether it feels good in the general universe of cards, but also has that special Hinterlands flair that I have all grown to love.
  • I think a card is better if the above and below the line tend to synergize.  This isn't necessary, but when it happens, or if there's a theme, I'm a sucker for that

Other than that, let's get onto my favorites.

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Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.


Don't hate me for liking this, but I like the idea of having an Apprentice that uses renewable energy.  Get a deck full of actions, and you'll maybe be able to play more of them than if you had Apprentice.  Sometimes it helps to not trash the card... kinda like the difference between Throne Room and Procession.

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River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

"The only water in the forest is the river."  I like the on gain effect here.  I think people have been missing that this is on gain. For fun, imagine we're in a Colony game with Border Village, River, and Ironworks.  I get a hand of Border Village, Ironworks, Ironworks, Copper, Copper.  Play BV, draw Copper.  Play Ironworks, gain River, draw Silver.  Play Ironworks, gain BV, gain River.  Now, I have $5 in hand and Platinum costs $5.  Rock on, River Song!

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.

Pretty nice.  I would like it better if the on gain effect were to use its effect fully -- i.e., "Put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile.  Reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curses.  Shuffle."

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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, eachthoer player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

I like the self synergy, and the incentive to try and pile these by oneself.

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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
Yes. Please. Just swingy enough and messes up how curses work counters cursers, ruiners, and copper flooders.  Note: This doesn't say to gain a Gold instead of a Curse, so you gain both.  Thus, I'm not sure if I want Trader or this in hand when my opponent hits me with Mountebank.  I like how this does to Cursers and Junkers what Tunnel does to discard attacks.

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Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
I like this lots.  As a Dominion fanboy, I like the separation between buy and gain.

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Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

I like what this card does to the deck composition.  It floods Silver if you are clogged.  It gains cheap victory cards when you are not clogged (Tunnel, Silk Road, etc).  Seems like a good Alt-VP enabler.  More than that it is cheap to pick up if there are any sub-$5 Actions you would like to play next turn.

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Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.

I like that the effect goes with the name.  Clever idea.  Makes me want to build a Pyramid Scheme deck.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #202 on: September 10, 2013, 01:46:14 am »
0

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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.
While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province instead.

So, now this has become a Witch with a Thief-bane, and a conditional +2$... Seeing it like this, i think it's... Okay. I guess it's one of the cards that will be at the bottom end of the voting, though it's not actually that bad. I think it's one of those cards that had more thought flow in them than you see.

The "Thief" bane is not quite correct.  Thief can whiff and even help opponents by trashing Copper, and it doesn't touch opponents' hands.  This one would hit something that costs good, and it pulls the card from the hand.  It's going to be really rare when it would be worth it to give you a free Silver while losing a Silver from my next hand (and from my deck as a whole).  Most cards costing more than $2 will be good enough that losing them would hurt a lot, and if they are in my deck then I probably wanted them.  Just accepting the Curse is probably going to be the right move almost all the time.  The choice is really not interesting.
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Nic

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #203 on: September 10, 2013, 01:55:12 am »
0

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Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Choose one: Gain a Silver, putting in on your Hinterland mat; or swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.


Those changes make it an entirely different card. In fact, the Silver gaining is probably now the most important part of the card. In its original form, it was probably worse than Scout, and even the +1 Action only gets it into the Scout territory. Sure, I'm all for voting for cards with interesting concepts, but this seems like too big of a change to assume to vote for, and would feel entirely different than the submitted card.

That's fair. I'm guessing it won't win, but I hope the author resubmits an updated version for the second Hinterlands contest.
Ditto. The non-terminal Hinterland I had in my head was my favorite card from the bunch, but that wasn't submitted to the actual contest. I guess I just assumed that would be changed, because it's just so sad otherwise. I do hope someone figures out what will make this card work in time for the second contest.

Now the only card I'm willing to vote for in this bunch is Clairvoyant, and even then I'd like it more giving spice to two other bland cards. Perhaps it'd be nicer with less superfluous choices?
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Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.
It doesn't combo with Mystic or other cards in that vein, but it really didn't before. Still makes Pearl Diver useful, though!

There's an entry I totally omitted (again). Another card named Wayfarer, which I will add to the bottom of the ballot. I would be well chuffed if Tables and WW (and everyone else) would weigh in on it.

Ehh, I like it. It gives you a way to recover from junking attacks, and the cards it gains for you will break up your Wayfarer draws in later turns. It'd be more fun if it was nonterminal, but then the card would in fact be terribroken. I'll probably vote for it.
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GwinnR

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #204 on: September 10, 2013, 01:56:19 am »
+1

Is there the theme for the contest #3 yet?
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #205 on: September 10, 2013, 01:59:09 am »
0

Just playtested Wagon Raider. It was dominating. I think the alternative to the Curse should be less awfull, like "discard a card costing 3$ or more that is not a victory card". Gaining cards your opponents becomes a big deal after a while.

Also playtested Artefact. A double Artefact opening with Big Money after that lost against a Bridge/Oasis engine, but not by much (3 points). Maybe raise the cost to 3$? A 2/5 split is too much of an advantage otherwise, i think.


I'm horrible at playtesting, more so when i'm tired.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 12:28:12 pm by Asper »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #206 on: September 10, 2013, 02:15:31 am »
0

Just playtested Wagon Raider. It was dominating. I think the alternative to the Curse should be less awfull, like "discard a card costing 3$ or more that is not a victory card". Gaining cards your opponents becomes a big deal after a while.

Also playtested Artefact. A double Artefact opening with Big Money after that lost against a Bridge/Oasis engine, but not by much (3 points). Maybe raise the cost to 3$? A 2/5 split is too much of an advantage otherwise, i think.

In what way was Wagon Raider dominating?  The attack is weaker than Sea Hag.  The bottom part only helps when you start buying Provinces, and even then it's just a terminal Silver.  I guess the bottom gets better if you also have +Buy.

Artefact into BM doesn't sound great.  It's strong trashing, which will shine more with engines.  Definitely think optional non-terminal trashing is too strong for $2, even with the delay.  I expect too strong for $3 as well.
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GwinnR

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #207 on: September 10, 2013, 02:40:25 am »
0

Quote
Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.
________________________________________
When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.
I like this, but I think you should not put it onto deck, when you react. As it is now you can do this every turn.
Also a problem: If there are no gainers the Factory is nearly useless, because putting the gained card into your hand only meens it goes to your discard pile as normal.

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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.
________________________________________
While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.
Here I think the opponents should not have the chance to get Victory-cards.

Same here:
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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.
________________________________________
When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
Plus discarding Coppers for +2 cards seems very strong. May be overpowered.

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Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.
________________________________________
When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.
Should this be "When you would gain a card other than COURIER (A)"?

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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.
Not that it would be interesting for the vote, but maybe for improving the card: I think this should cost $5. Most cards you wnat to play often cost 5$ or more. The Midnight Gathering should cost more, because you have the choice which card you want to play (like Band of Misfits, which only allows to "play" a card that costs less) and you have the cycling-effect.

Same here:
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Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.
________________________________________
When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.

Quote
Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.
________________________________________
When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.
I like this idea, but I think this is way to strong. Expand does nearly the same thing with "Gain a card costing up to 3$ more" and it costs 7$ and gains no other cards. The discarding-clause seems not really weaken the card. Normally you only have 3 cards in your hand after playing one and trashing one.
But again this does not interest for the votes.

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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.
________________________________________
When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.
Could lead to really strange games, but I love this idea of pseudo-embargoing.

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Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.
________________________________________
When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.
I also don't like the idea of copying Duchies (and Dukes ;-)). This should exclude Victory cards I think.

Quote
Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.
________________________________________
Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.
"If you do, gain a Victory card costinGGG less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses."
"You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse." Is this right for the card its own? So, if I buy a Victory card and trash the Painful Journey, may I get 2 Painful Journeys?
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #208 on: September 10, 2013, 03:35:50 am »
0

I was looking through peoples' comments and was suprised how little people liked Hinterland and Shaman, two of my favorite cards submitted. I agree Sham is underpriced, but at $5 it should be perfectly balanced, kind of like Band of Misfits but requires you to have the card in your deck. It really isn't a good card in the opening. It also boosts filtering, both for you and your opponants and hasn't really been explored. (Sage doesn't count because it gives you a good card, not the good card)
Hinterland also seems quite interesting with the silver thing added and really seems quite different and interesting.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #209 on: September 10, 2013, 03:45:09 am »
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It's a slight nerf because you can discard junk pretty often.  Usually discarding an Estate and keeping an Estate in hand amount to the same thing.
No. It's an enormous nerf which totally changes what the card can be used for - not even just in games with Estate-trashing (which are very common). When was the last time you only wanted to play one Laboratory per turn? If you play five Laboratories, you get a ten-card hand, which typically does not contain five junk cards that you don't mind discarding.

The Unstoppable Alchemist Stack draws your deck, because each one of them is a Laboratory. If you nerfed Alchemists in this way, it would just draw your preferred five card starting hand.

With this nerf, the card is no longer for drawing, it's for filtering, and often Warehouse will just be better at filtering because it lets you see more cards.
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #210 on: September 10, 2013, 03:45:31 am »
+1

I find all this love for Hinterland totally mystifying. I grant that what it does is novel, but it's also just not very good as written, and has no easy fix. And really, it's not THAT Novel--it's similar to Native Village Yeah, I just don't think it's exciting at all. Or good.
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Aidan Millow

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #211 on: September 10, 2013, 06:43:54 am »
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Potential fix for Quagmire (which I love but, as people have pointed out, is totally broken): add "other than a Victory card pile."
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #212 on: September 10, 2013, 07:01:58 am »
0

Potential fix for Quagmire (which I love but, as people have pointed out, is totally broken): add "other than a Victory card pile."

It still ends the game turn 1 with Catacombs if you have at least $3, which you usually do.  Also too strong with Squire, Cultist, and Fortress in my opinion.  Maybe say the three cards are put into the trash pile, rather than saying they are trashed?
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andwilk

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #213 on: September 10, 2013, 07:26:55 am »
+1

Potential fix for Quagmire (which I love but, as people have pointed out, is totally broken): add "other than a Victory card pile."

It still ends the game turn 1 with Catacombs if you have at least $3, which you usually do.  Also too strong with Squire, Cultist, and Fortress in my opinion.  Maybe say the three cards are put into the trash pile, rather than saying they are trashed?

I think saying that is trying to circumvent how the trashing convention is supposed to work.  Cards only get into the trash pile by "trashing" them.  Regardless, I feel that Quagmire is a broken card as written, and only limiting it to non-Victory cards doesn't help it's cause because of all of the Dark Ages cards with on-trash effects.  Another one is Hunting Grounds... you can gain 3 Duchies or 9 Estates.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #214 on: September 10, 2013, 07:46:26 am »
+1

Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.
Rounded down I guess? With a high enough $4+ action density this is easily "Draw your whole deck including the cards originally discarded". Quite probably too strong.

Quote
Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
The bottom part is probably okay-ish for $3, but probably more on the $2 side (compared to Squire for example). With the bottom part it actually only costs $1, AND it adds a buys. So, I think a bit too cheap and a bit too similar to Border Village.

Quote
Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.
Utterly broken. $9 with 3 Buys ends the game...

Quote
Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.
Argh... new components I really don't like. Regardless, this feels extremely weak... so you need to buy 4 of these to actually have a Province hand to swap into? And before you get bascially... nothing?

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Buying this multiple times in a turn does reduce costs each time.
At first glance this felt a bit strong, but after some thought I think I like it. I mean, this does not very much most of the game, but some of them can really help engines to catch up in points very effectively. Plus it might be nice for slogs (Silk Road, I look at you)... You yeah, nice.


Quote
Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
Hm... so the main effect is like a better Warehouse... The thing is, it is a MUCH better Warehouse for $4 (which is quite a good card for $3), so this alone is a bit strong.
The bottom part I can't really grasp. Is this good or bad for your opponents? Probably bad most of the times? Should this be an attack then? (of course not, since it's on-gain)
So yeah, overall not that interesting and a bit strong.

Quote
Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.
Well, first: I don't really think Hinterlands needs another Smithy variant. But second: I suppose this is fine. Of course this card is quite strong with good Villages around (Bazaar!), but without it's just an expensive Smithy.
The card on its own is fine probably, but it's not terribly exciting and Hinterlands already has Margrave and Embassy...

Quote
Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.
Interesting. So this is a Peddler variant that wants no Treasure trashing, but deals differently with this issue (so, nicely on-theme). The thing is, I suppose this is a bit swingy a slightly too weak. I mean, Peddler plus is usually $5, but the Plus is only on-buy here, which makes it rather mediocre, AND the issue of not maybe having 3 Treasures in hand really really nerfs it. So: Nice idea, but a bit weak I think.

Quote
Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.
Err... how does this card play? Like self-synergetic? Sure, with 5 Emeralds in hand you can buy another Emerald... but other than that?
Maybe I'm wrong, but this seems to be extremely weak.

Quote
Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.
The Super-Cellar. Probably fine, maybe a bit on the weaker side.

Quote
Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.
So this basically trades $1 for 2 Buys on all Action cards in the supply. Probably adds some nice variability, but the card itself is only like a middle man and not a factor on its own. I guess I sort of like it, but I don't know whether this is enough to justify a cards slot.

Quote
Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).
Very strong main effect with a very serious nerf to it. I suppose it's still a great opening buy, but the issue of trashers that it gets worse the later you get it is even more severe here, since it's delayed by a shuffle AND shuffles tend to get longer as the game progresses. More or less Chapel version 2, and therefore also viable at $2 (you need to be able to open this together with another card). Niche application, but probably fine.

Quote
Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.
Looks fine. I like it.

Quote
River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Well, another 2VP for $3... with the bottom part not really worth a lot. I mean, why would you like Remodel into or Ironworks a dead Victory card if you don't intend to buy Victory cards yet. Sort of an anti-synergy, which leaves it with only the top part. Which is... boring.

Quote
Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.
A Workshop variant only for engine building basically. I don't know whether we need such a thing, but the card itself seems fine. The on-gain is interesting, since you can potentially draw the Factory back with the gained card, which could lead to quite some creative turns.

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Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.
Do we really need an on-gain Island? I mean, there's not even a tabelau for that... Plus, the on-play is incredibly weak, so $5 costs sounds just WAY to high.

Quote
Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.
Probably weak. The top is sort of like Harvest mostly, with the +Buy traded for a potential $4. The bottom part, however, is quite a drawback, so the card would maybe be fine at $4? Don't know.

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Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.
Another Silver flooder. Buy 2 Silvers, gain 2 Silvers on top of your deck. Probably fine at $4, but do we really need another Silver generator in Hinterlands?

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
Now this is interesting. It obviously helps against Cursing and clogging, it might support slogs, and it is maybe even ok as an opener (?)... I think I like it.

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Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.
Fine card probably, but not all that exciting I guess.

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Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.
4VP for $6 alone is a lot (it at least requires some work for Fairgrounds), so maybe a bit strong? In any event it's just not very interesting, and on-gain +Buys dont' feel that attractive to me (especially for expensive cards like this one).

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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
Interesting and quite complicated card I suppose. I mean, you can of course gain more Mills, which is like a Margrave attack for your opponents, but in the end you have tons of Mills, which is sort of like tons of worse Universities. You probably want this in the same sort of games you want University, which makes one of those a bit obsolete I think. Apart from that I like it.

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
On first glance the bottom part seems a bit unconnected to the top part, but well, both are trade-off engine effects. So yeah, I really like the top part of the card, and maybe it would be enough to make it viable on its own.
The bottom part... hmmm... it helps a bit against an early greening opponent (the question is, would you dsicard the Salesman for that?), and in the endgame it's a bit like the "do I gain a Duchy off of that Province buy, or do I rather keep it and hope for something better".
So yeah, maybe the bottom thing is not necessary, but I sort of like both effects.
Edit: Maybe the bottom part would be better like "When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal this. If you do, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand" to make it more thematic and a bit weaker.


Quote
Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.
A tricky and interesting Workshop variant. Maybe a bit on the strong side, but probably fine.

Quote
Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.
Boring top part, complicated and swingy bottom part. I'm not a fan.

Quote
Wayfarer (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to its cost in coins.
Looks a bit overpowered in the sense that the early game will often be a race for this card. So with a 4/3 opening you can buy two of those, trash 2 Estates and gain a Silver and a $4-cost off from it... That's like, awesome. Probably too strong.

Quote
Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.
Looks like a decent Lab variant. Maybe not a power $5, but probably fine.

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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
Ok, this fits the theme, but it's SOOO similar to Tunnel. A Gold gainer with 2 VP for $3 and just a different trigger. Yeah, probably okay-ish card in a vacuum, but just too much like Tunnel.

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Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.
Interesting. The idea is intriguing (i.e. the trade-off between Victory cards and additional Actions), but I feel it's too swingy dependend on the additional pile. Maybe that's not too bad though.

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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.
Hard to tell whether this is worth $5. Maybe it is. Theme-wise not very Hinterlandsy though...

Quote
Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.
The card itself would work I guess, but it's a bit wordy for my taste. Compared to Tunnel probably a bit weak, since the Reaction is useful less often I suppose.

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Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.
Yet another Workshop variant, this time with a filtering effect attached. Favors slogs and rushs a bit more than Armory for examply, but overall not terribly exciting.

Quote
Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.
Uh... well... Estate trashing is super-strong, Copper trashing is often fine as well (depends on $2 cost cards available), $5-cost trashing is extremely strong (hello Expand). So ok, what's the drawback. Discard down to 2 hurts of course, especially if you add this to engines. On the other hand, there are engines that can handle that, and compared to the effect it's not THAT bad. The on-gain helps your oppoents, so that's a nerf as well. I guess this card can either be a good terminal addition or way overpowered. Overall a bit too strong I feel.

Quote
Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.
Does the "Look..." part belong to the "Otherwise" clause? Anyway, up to "...put it back" the card looks more like a classic $2 cost, but fine. The rest sounds weak as well and a bit useless (why would you want to put a card from your hand at the bottom of your deck?). But even with this thing, quite probably a $2 cost, and not a very interesting one.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

EDIT: Changed from "when you gain a card" to "when you buy a card".
Hm... not terribly exciting, since something simliar already exists, but apart from that probably fine.

Quote
Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.
The action seems quite strong, but probably ok? It's like a half-Golem with more control over what you draw. The on-gain is quite good, so this would probably work at $5 as well. I think.

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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.
Another Workshop with some freaky effect that has more or less nothing to do with the rest of the card. Don't like it that much.

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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.
So, let's assume we call the Thrift Shop mat "Trash". How would this change the card? Like... hardly? So, I think there is no use for another component. Apart from that, well... it's probably fine? Maybe this could cost $5, but I'm not sure.

Quote
Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.
Another expensive Workshop variant. Not very good probably and not very exciting.

Quote
Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
Well, the main effect is probably ok... but with Remake and Develop around it feels sort of obsolete. The on-gain effect has nothing to do with the rest of the card, so yeah... I'm not very excited about it.

Quote
Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.
The wording seems a bit off, but not terribly so. So what does this card do? Gain $2 actions? Gain $5 Actions late? Both doesn't seem too great. It might be fine for Duchy/Duke with decent $5 cost actions or treasures around, but otherwise it's pretty bad I suppose.

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
A rather interesting Lab variant that stacks quite nicely I guess. The on-buy/on-gain is interesting, since it provides filtering when you buy Chapterhouse and is a mild attack when you just gain it. The bottom part is probably not really necessary, but the top part I like.

Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you buy this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

EDIT: Changed "When you gain this" to "When you buy this".
Ok, so either this is a weird Grand Market variant or a Victory card gainer... interesting. The on-play gains Treasure or Victory cards, the on-gain Actions... This card is probably fine, but it's quite a mess. It wants to be like everything at the same time, but I don't really see the purpose. The top part can be handy in slogs, but the bottom wants something else... So yeah, I'm missing the focus of this card. Otherwise ok I think.

Quote
Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.
Ok, this also has the issue that the card itself doesn't do anything basically, with its mere purpose being some sort of expedient. Interesting concept, but I'm not convince it's worth it.

Quote
Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.
I'm... confused. I really have a hard time judging this, and it's quite likely hard to balance. Wonky at best.

Quote
Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province instead.

EDIT: Added "instead" to the end of the text.
The top part feels extremely swingy (opponent gets rid of estate, gives you a Cellar or Silver, or gets a Curse) and potentially a bit political in multiplayer games. The bottom part is super strong, so all in all I don't like this very much.

Quote
Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.
The bottom part looks a bit too strong, but otherwise fine I guess.

Quote
Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Weak and swing I'd suppose.

Quote
Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.
I see the purpose here, but it's still very very weak I think. I mean, when would you want to put it back really? This is so clearly clearly much worse than Herbalist for example, so I'd see me buying this card only if the +buy was absolutely necessary.

Quote
Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.
Another mat thing... okay, this is similar to the one above, but certainly somewhat better. But well, not very exciting.

Quote
Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.
Hm... looks fine to me.

Quote
Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.
The IGG-Pillage merge... probably ok, but so not inventive.

Quote
Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
Ok... +4 Cards is a bit strong for a $5 cost... so the bottom part is supposed to be a nerf? I mean yeah, maybe you don't want to buy Gold early... but probably you want to do it still? It's a bit like a reverse Hoard I guess, so I feel this is a bit strong, especially past midgame.

Quote
Wayfarer (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one costing $1 or more. Put all the revealed cards into your hand.

When you discard this from play, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper you have in play.
So this draws 1 card plus all the Coppers/Curses on the way... and gains additional cards during clean-up. This looks like veeeery strong Copper strategy card. Draw 8 Coppers, gain 2 Provinces... I'm not sure how strong this card can really be, and how swingy it ends up to be, but it looks interesting at least.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 08:17:24 am by kn1tt3r »
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #215 on: September 10, 2013, 08:06:33 am »
+2

I think several people are incorrectly stating some cards should be an attack because of the below the line ability. On gain and on buy abilities that hurt opponents are not attacks (e.g. IGG).
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Tables

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #216 on: September 10, 2013, 10:18:17 am »
+1

There's an entry I totally omitted (again). Another card named Wayfarer, which I will add to the bottom of the ballot. I would be well chuffed if Tables and WW (and everyone else) would weigh in on it.

Oh all right.

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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #217 on: September 10, 2013, 11:03:50 am »
0

Another edit: Ring Leader should have +2 Cards when you play it. I'm fixing that now.

And so many workshops! Actually workshop itself is a bit Hinterlandsy to me, but whatever.

This caught my attention as well. Donald rejected a one-shot double workshop card because Hinterlands has precious few $4 cards you want several of. Pretty much it's just Silk Road. So all the "Gain a card costing up to $4" submissions don't really fit Hinterlands, in my opinion.

That's one of the many reasons I like Mill so much. It gains $5 cards, and there are a ton of $5 cards in Hinterlands you want a bunch of: Cartographer, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inn, Margrave, and Stables.

But wasn't on-gain Militia also dropped for being unfun?  I strongly remember reading something like that in a Secret History post, probably one of the more recent post-Guilds posts.

Yes, it was. However, comparing it to such cards in the outtakes, two things make Mill different. First, the card doesn't also attack when you play it, so the attack only happens 10 times max (barring Graverobber, etc.). Second, the on-play effect makes other players draw cards, which may very well balance it out. The main worry I have is that it can really exacerbate first-player advantage in the opening.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 11:05:32 am by LastFootnote »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #218 on: September 10, 2013, 11:48:45 am »
0

Another edit: Ring Leader should have +2 Cards when you play it. I'm fixing that now.

Ring Leader probably doesn't need a line. See Noble Brigand.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #219 on: September 10, 2013, 11:54:03 am »
0

Agreed. No line. It has two on play effects, one of which is also an on buy effect.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #220 on: September 10, 2013, 12:25:19 pm »
0

Just playtested Wagon Raider. It was dominating. I think the alternative to the Curse should be less awfull, like "discard a card costing 3$ or more that is not a victory card". Gaining cards your opponents becomes a big deal after a while.

Also playtested Artefact. A double Artefact opening with Big Money after that lost against a Bridge/Oasis engine, but not by much (3 points). Maybe raise the cost to 3$? A 2/5 split is too much of an advantage otherwise, i think.

In what way was Wagon Raider dominating?  The attack is weaker than Sea Hag.  The bottom part only helps when you start buying Provinces, and even then it's just a terminal Silver.  I guess the bottom gets better if you also have +Buy.

Artefact into BM doesn't sound great.  It's strong trashing, which will shine more with engines.  Definitely think optional non-terminal trashing is too strong for $2, even with the delay.  I expect too strong for $3 as well.

Yeah, i wasn't thinking about what i wrote there, or, i was, but i was very tired... "Dominating" was certainly not the rigth word for the card as a whole. The curse choice was dominating, that's what i wanted to say... The other option was just so horrible. I think making it a stronger Cutpurse "discard an action or treasure card" would be better, but i think it doesn't really need the curse option, then.

I was talking nonsense about Artefact, too. Raising the cost does't change anything, except maybe that it's not possible to open Artefact/5$-attack. I think if you want to nerf the card, it should lose one of the options, for example the medium-use option, discard. Trashing is the main benefit it gives, but i wonder if it's necessary to make it a plain "+1 Card, +1 Action, Trash a card" to balance it.

I'll edit that post before more people read that half-sleep nonsense.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #221 on: September 10, 2013, 12:27:52 pm »
0

It's a slight nerf because you can discard junk pretty often.  Usually discarding an Estate and keeping an Estate in hand amount to the same thing.
No. It's an enormous nerf which totally changes what the card can be used for - not even just in games with Estate-trashing (which are very common). When was the last time you only wanted to play one Laboratory per turn? If you play five Laboratories, you get a ten-card hand, which typically does not contain five junk cards that you don't mind discarding.

The Unstoppable Alchemist Stack draws your deck, because each one of them is a Laboratory. If you nerfed Alchemists in this way, it would just draw your preferred five card starting hand.

With this nerf, the card is no longer for drawing, it's for filtering, and often Warehouse will just be better at filtering because it lets you see more cards.

Ehh, you may be right.  Nonetheless, I don't think piledriving Labs is great all that often, and you do often have enough junk for the number of times you'd play it in a turn that the discad doesn't hurt.  Alchemist is very different because the hope is that you topdeck those Labs every time.  You can expect to play all your Alchemists and have a huge hand, whereas Lab is much more of a support card that you only play a few of (and maybe you only have a few).

So OK, maybe it's a bigger nerf than I gave it credit for.  But I still really doubt it's as big a nerf as you are making it out to be.

Lab+discard is definitely way better than Warehouse.  Empirical evidence -- Donald X. tested it and it was way too strong for $4.  Warehouse lowers your hand size, which really is a big deal.  Lab+discard maintains your hand size, which is much better.


Another edit: Ring Leader should have +2 Cards when you play it. I'm fixing that now.

And so many workshops! Actually workshop itself is a bit Hinterlandsy to me, but whatever.

This caught my attention as well. Donald rejected a one-shot double workshop card because Hinterlands has precious few $4 cards you want several of. Pretty much it's just Silk Road. So all the "Gain a card costing up to $4" submissions don't really fit Hinterlands, in my opinion.

That's one of the many reasons I like Mill so much. It gains $5 cards, and there are a ton of $5 cards in Hinterlands you want a bunch of: Cartographer, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inn, Margrave, and Stables.

But wasn't on-gain Militia also dropped for being unfun?  I strongly remember reading something like that in a Secret History post, probably one of the more recent post-Guilds posts.

Yes, it was. However, comparing it to such cards in the outtakes, two things make Mill different. First, the card doesn't also attack when you play it, so the attack only happens 10 times max (barring Graverobber, etc.). Second, the on-play effect makes other players draw cards, which may very well balance it out. The main worry I have is that it can really exacerbate first-player advantage in the opening.

I found the quote I was thinking of.  It was in the History for Noble Brigands, as someone (Asper?) said above.

Quote
Maybe it's for the best that you'll never experience the joy of a when-gain discard-based attack just sitting there, promising that any hand you draw might be taken away, even if no-one has even bought the card yet.

The anecdote doesn't indicate that the problem was that it attacked on play.  It's just the on-gain discard that was problematic.  I imagine it to be more like IGG ("attack" on gain) than Noble Brigand (attack on buy and on play).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #222 on: September 10, 2013, 12:30:26 pm »
0

Another edit: Ring Leader should have +2 Cards when you play it. I'm fixing that now.

Almost missed this hiding above the quote boxes. :P

I think I really like Ring Leader (except for the name).  My worry about it is whether it might be too slow.  But maybe it's not much slower than Spy, and it's certainly harder to chain.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #223 on: September 10, 2013, 12:30:55 pm »
0

Another edit: Ring Leader should have +2 Cards when you play it. I'm fixing that now.

Ring Leader probably doesn't need a line. See Noble Brigand.

Agreed. No line. It has two on play effects, one of which is also an on buy effect.

I seem to remember that Noble Brigand doesn't have a line because the line wouldn't fit on the card. If it wins and I mock up the card, I may omit the line. For now it stays.
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #224 on: September 10, 2013, 12:39:59 pm »
0

Another edit: Ring Leader should have +2 Cards when you play it. I'm fixing that now.

And so many workshops! Actually workshop itself is a bit Hinterlandsy to me, but whatever.

This caught my attention as well. Donald rejected a one-shot double workshop card because Hinterlands has precious few $4 cards you want several of. Pretty much it's just Silk Road. So all the "Gain a card costing up to $4" submissions don't really fit Hinterlands, in my opinion.

That's one of the many reasons I like Mill so much. It gains $5 cards, and there are a ton of $5 cards in Hinterlands you want a bunch of: Cartographer, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inn, Margrave, and Stables.

But wasn't on-gain Militia also dropped for being unfun?  I strongly remember reading something like that in a Secret History post, probably one of the more recent post-Guilds posts.

Yes, it was. However, comparing it to such cards in the outtakes, two things make Mill different. First, the card doesn't also attack when you play it, so the attack only happens 10 times max (barring Graverobber, etc.). Second, the on-play effect makes other players draw cards, which may very well balance it out. The main worry I have is that it can really exacerbate first-player advantage in the opening.

I didn't even think of first player advantage before... Imagine your 5/2 opening becomes a 3/2 because somebody else bought a Mill. Absolutely no.  :o
I think without the on-gain it's probably okay, but not a real Hinterlands card - more like Prosperity.
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #225 on: September 10, 2013, 12:48:56 pm »
+2

Another edit: Ring Leader should have +2 Cards when you play it. I'm fixing that now.

Ring Leader probably doesn't need a line. See Noble Brigand.

Agreed. No line. It has two on play effects, one of which is also an on buy effect.

I seem to remember that Noble Brigand doesn't have a line because the line wouldn't fit on the card. If it wins and I mock up the card, I may omit the line. For now it stays.

Yes, sure. But only because with a line, Noble Brigand would look like this:

Noble Brigand
+1$
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Silver or Gold that you choose and discards the rest. If he didn't reveal a treasure, he gains a Copper. You gain the trashed cards.
----------
When you buy this, each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Silver or Gold that you choose and discards the rest. If he didn't reveal a treasure, he gains a Copper. You gain the trashed cards.


Ring Leader has to be either:

Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.
When you play or buy this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

or:

Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.
Each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.
------------
When you buy this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.


Also: Dark Ages :D
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #226 on: September 10, 2013, 01:00:59 pm »
0

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
A rather interesting Lab variant that stacks quite nicely I guess. The on-buy/on-gain is interesting, since it provides filtering when you buy Chapterhouse and is a mild attack when you just gain it. The bottom part is probably not really necessary, but the top part I like.

So, thinking more about Chapterhouse, how do you think building a Chapterhouse deck compares to building a Minion deck?

My guess is that it will be comparable, but usually stronger. And it seems like the below the line ability being sometimes an attack makes it really strong.

Would it ruin the card if it just gave the sifting externality on gain which would always be a positive for your opponents?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #227 on: September 10, 2013, 01:26:02 pm »
0

It gives you a lot more cards, but allows for less filtering, and because of that I prefer minion. This seems even less hinterlandy than that.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #228 on: September 10, 2013, 03:51:18 pm »
0


A few I'm interested in.


Quote
Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

I think this is too strong. Not to mention it's not at all Hinterlandsy


Quote
Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.

I like this! The "put anywhere in your deck" may be too slow and annoying. The on-buy is really interesting although I can't see how it fits in with the top.

Quote
Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

Is the on-gain a buff or a nerf?


Quote
Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.

Doesn't this allow to piledrive Trade Agreements with just one in play? And it draws 3 cards, with increases the chances of you having a $5 hand. I think it needs to fixed.

Quote
Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.

On buy is interesting. Not sure what to say about the on-play.

Quote
Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.

This is too weak. You get 2 Buys in exchange for $1 and a junk card in your deck. The only time I would buy it is to empty the 3rd pile.



Quote
Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D I really like this card! The player interaction is so interesting and unique, with a terminal gold thingy for you and a Haggler thingy for your opponents. It may be better at $4 price point though.



Quote
Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

I love this one too! The on-gain attack is compensated by the benefit for your opponents. $5 gaining is really strong, but it doesn't stack too well. Seems balanced.



Quote
Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.

I've seen this card before, and I think I know who submitted it. (But I won't say it here) Like Young Witch, this card's strength is tied to that of the Reinforcement card. If it's something like Counting House, Commander is almost strictly worse than Duchy. But if the Reinforcement is Wharf, Commander is REALLY STRONG!



Quote
Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.

I like the on-gain, but the top doesn't feel related. Needs a different play effect.
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I play Lookout, revealing a Fortress, a Tunnel and a Gold.

Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #229 on: September 10, 2013, 04:32:46 pm »
+1

Quote
Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D I really like this card! The player interaction is so interesting and unique, with a terminal gold thingy for you and a Haggler thingy for your opponents. It may be better at $4 price point though.


While others have mentioned that this is too weak, I think it's worth pointing out that it's so weak that changing its cost won't fix the problem. This doesn't work at any price.

The issue is that your opponents essentially get a free turn. Unless you are building a Crossroads-Secret Chamber deck or something and then don't play the card when you buy green. You buy a Gold? I'll take a Lab for free please. Province? Duchy. Or Bank. Played two of these and bought Gold? I'll take TWO Labs! This isn't a Haggler externality. It's practically giving your opponent a Possession!

I'll let you buy this so I can win.

(I seem to remember a secret history about opponents gaining cards costing less -- but maybe that was about reactions to attacks? I don't remember.)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #230 on: September 10, 2013, 04:47:20 pm »
+1

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River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

"The only water in the forest is the river."  I like the on gain effect here.  I think people have been missing that this is on gain. For fun, imagine we're in a Colony game with Border Village, River, and Ironworks.  I get a hand of Border Village, Ironworks, Ironworks, Copper, Copper.  Play BV, draw Copper.  Play Ironworks, gain River, draw Silver.  Play Ironworks, gain BV, gain River.  Now, I have $5 in hand and Platinum costs $5.  Rock on, River Song!

I didn't miss it, but I still think that the card's purpose is somewhat conflicted, in that you have to green in order to make use of cost reduction for non-green cards.  If I am in greening mode, I am less likely to be interested in those components.  When I most want the cost reduction, I probably don't want to be greening.  That said, I could see this card being a Hoard-ish card, in that it promotes earlier greening by allowing you to keep building your deck with good stuff to compensate for the dead cards.

A minor quibble is that River's on gain is nothing at all in games without gainers or +Buy.  But that's not actually a huge deal.

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.

Pretty nice.  I would like it better if the on gain effect were to use its effect fully -- i.e., "Put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile.  Reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curses.  Shuffle."

If it were worded that way, you discard your deck, take out the dead cards, discard them back into the discard pile with everything else, and then shuffle it all again.  What you want is to set aside the Victory and Curse cards, shuffle, then discard the set aside cards.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #231 on: September 10, 2013, 06:28:46 pm »
0

So I'll talk about half of these cards now and half later. I'll start with the second half because I suspect they tend to get overlooked by people who started at the top and are now running out of patience towards the end. Plus, I have a point about Sultan specifically that I want to make. I'll do the first half later.

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Sultan
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Discard a card.

When you gain this, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard any number of them and put the rest back in any order.
The top half is probably too strong for $4 (I think someone mentioned that Donald X. playtested a version at $4 and found it too strong?) and almost (e.g. tunnel) strictly weaker than Lab at $5. But still maybe an ok $5 if Lab didn't exist.

So, one concern to think about with on-gains is: what if I open with it? Nomad Camp and Inn both mess with the opening split in different ways. IGG and Noble Brigand mess with your opponents. Farmlands is too expensive. I'm probably missing some others, but the trend is clear: if they mess with your opening split, they have fairly weak on-play effects (sure I can maybe get a 4/5 split with Nomad camp, but only if I commit to using an opening $4 on Woodcutter, and even then it's not likely; Inn is similar). Opening Sultan? I'm discarding at least one estate (and frankly, I'm likely discarding all of them to get an earlier reshuffle) and thus likely getting at least a $4.5/$4 opening, which is probably too strong?
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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
So, similar to Cache (instead of 2 coppers and a Gold, you get a copper, a gold, and a Victory card), but you have to spend an extra buy and can stack oddly. I'll have to think about it.

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Commander
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP

When you gain this, gain a Reinforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.
Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing $5 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Reinforcement cards and cannot be bought.

Clarification: Unlike most Victory cards, there are always 10 copies of Commander in the Supply regardless of the number of players.
Instead of IGG emptying IGG and Curse piles, this empties the Reinforcement and Commander piles simultaneously. On the other hand, a VP card doesn't help buy more Commanders, so rushing will be difficult, unless the Reinforcement card is something like Vault. I'd probably like this more if it were a half-Harem (1VP-$1) instead, but it might be too strong. Obviously much weaker if there is anyway of gaining the Reinforcement cards without buying them (e.g. a Remodel).

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Midnight Gathering
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Action card from it; put it into your hand.
So it becomes an action card of your choice? I don't know, it seems too much like Band of Misfits, but limited by the number of other actions in your deck. Now that I think about it, that makes it probably way worse than Band of Misfits; a huge part of Band of Misfits is the flexibility (I can use this as a Sea Hag/Moneylender now, but later it becomes a valuable engine component). Here, you still need to have that number of the engine components and any opening-game cards are dead). I don't think being able to grab bigger actions makes up for that? How many big actions will you be getting with enough money to spam $5 cost cards left over?

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Pasture
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal and discard this along with any number of cards from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards per Pasture and +1 Card per other card discarded.
So, effectively a cellar/lab when your opponent gains a Victory card, and a dead card otherwise. Could be interesting, I suppose, but I wouldn't buy it early, and by the time I want it, I'll probably only see it once or twice? Although cellaring during the green stage would be nice. I'll have to think about this card some more.

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Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.
So, there are a lot of Workshop variants, and people tend to group them all together and say "another workshop variant", but I want to try to look at each of them separately, because they deserve to be considered individually on their merits.

As I said with Sultan, this can mess with the opening split similar to Nomad Camp or Inn. I don't mind it as much here, because a) everyone can buy it (it's a $4 not a $5, which is a big difference for an opener), and b) once you've done that, it's a Workshop, not an almost $5 in its own right. Still, an interesting effect.

Obviously, likes Silk Roads/Garden rushes a lot. Can also be a terminal Scout (gaining itself), if you ever want a terminal Scout. Maybe an end-game engine as a (very) poor man's Wandering Minstrel effect?
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Bargain
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, a card costing exactly $2 more than it, and a card costing exactly $3 more than it. Discard down to 2 cards in hand.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.
Probably better than Expand, and at $4. This card seems far too strong. Open this, hit an estate next shuffle, gain a Silver, another Bargain (trashing a copper), and a $5. That's way too strong.

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Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.
So, can be a cantrip (if you hit a decent card or a Copper) or a peddler (for cards you don't want anyway). Not sure how useful putting cards back on the bottom of your deck will turn out to be in practice, but it's a novel effect.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

EDIT: Changed from "when you gain a card" to "when you buy a card".
Without the edit, this was ludicrous. With the edit, it's a much weaker Haggler.

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Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.
Similar to Midnight Gathering above. Cheaper than it or Band of Misfits, but with an on-gain penalty. I like this somewhat better (just because of that difference) but I'll want to see some playtesting to see if it works

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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.
Another workshop variant. You cover up a card, then later use the Tinker's Wagon to uncover that pile and then normally buy the card. Alternatively, you can use the Tinker's Wagon to gain itself, covering a card that you don't want but your opponent might early, sort of like an embargo. So that's the synergy between the effects.

I'm not sure how I feel about the mechanic itself; can you cover an empty pile, thus making it unempty? What if you (using highway/bridge) move the last Province to another pile, thus ending the game early?

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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.
So, you need to stack it to do something with it. Which is tough to do with a $6, even one that acts as a Silver. I have a similar rules concern (do cards on the mat count as not being in the suppy at the same time?

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Grandee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, gain a Gold; each other player gains a Silver.
So a Grandee is sort of like a foreign governor, which I assume is the motivation behind the name (which I like). The rest of the card doesn't really seem to  "click". It can't gain itself without Highway, bridge, etc. None of the effects really synergize together, and a $5 needs to be powerful.

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Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
I like the on-play. It's a weaker Remake, which is fine. The obvious synergy with the on-gain is to make it like Rats, but gaining another $3 along with the second Construct.  You can even make it into a partially powered up City that trashes and gains two Constructs. I like this card.

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Missionary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Gain an Action or Treasure card costing up to the Victory card's cost, putting it onto your deck. Discard the revealed cards.

When you buy this, reveal a card from your hand. If that card costs $6 or less, gain a copy of it.
This is swingy in most decks. Seems like it would be nice with Alt-VP. Maybe too nice; buy this, reveal Gardens in hand, gain a Gardens. So a slightly better workshop in that respect, but riskier in non-Rushes. On the other hand, if you can trash your Estates, gain a Duchy at some point, and this becomes a workshop that goes up to $5. I'm not sure if I like that swinginess.

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Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
So, a sifting copper with an on-buy sift or an on-gain urchin for your opponents. I guess that's thematic, although I'm not sure about the name. Obviously more powerful with the ability to gain $5 cards, at which point it becomes an on-gain discard attack (although a weak one). Which I don't like. I feel like there ought to be some reason behind an on-gain attack beyond just hey, let's make an on-gain attack. Noble Brigand is a Thief variant which is (a) a weak class of attacks in general (so it's not overpowering) and (b) has fun interactions with e.g. Fool's Gold. IGG isn't technically an attack, but the combination of running out 2 piles at once is a key component of the card. This card just possibly attacks.

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Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you buy this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

EDIT: Changed "When you gain this" to "When you buy this".
So, a somewhat more complicated workshop variant. More precisely, it's a cantrip that turns another card into a non-terminal Workshop that can't gain actions. And you get a little money if you decide to discard an action or treasure. And the on-buy gives you an action that gets top-decked. But it can't gain itself w/o Highway/Bridge etc.  Not that the on-buy would trigger anyway. Maybe a bit too complicated?


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Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.
Don't like this. I don't like the concept of getting extra buys by buying a card, I don't like the tracking it requires ("wait, what order did I buy my cards in; do I have $2 or $4 left? I can't look through my discard pile to check"), and I don't like the on-play either.

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Painful Journey
Types: Action – Curse – Reaction
Cost: $4
Discard any number of Curses. +2 Cards for each Curse discarded.

Worth –1 VP. When you would buy a Victory card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costin less than the bought card and gain 2 Curses.

Clarification: You cannot gain this card when another card instructs you to gain a Curse.
Why is this a curse type? If the idea is to let it take advantage of it's own abilities, just say "+2 Cards for each Curse or Painful Journey discarded." And the penalties seem too harsh; I can't think of a situation I would ever buy this.

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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province instead.

EDIT: Added "instead" to the end of the text.

So, a weaker Sea Hag (no one will pretty much ever give you a $3 or greater card voluntarily outside of something like Moneylender), that becomes a terminal silver that can only buy Provinces and doesn't stack (but does make it easier to buy more provinces). So it creates a slog, and then occasionally helps you spike to Provinces.


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Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.
Village that goes straight to hand (I'd honestly prefer it being top-decked, because with no gainers "to hand" is essentially the same as being gained normally). If your opponent gains an action card, you can discard it to do a Midnight Gathering effect, which is another reason I'd like it to go on top of the deck (so your opponent is on notice that you have it in hand this turn). But maybe that would be too oppressive. I'm not really sold on this card idea.

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Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

This seems like it would scale badly to multiple players. It also doesn't really feel "Hinterlands" to me. I suspect in practice you will usually be hitting Coppers and Estates early on, so it takes a while before it's good, and then you have the Smugglers problem ("stop copying me!").
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Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.
I like the idea of a "Walled Market", but this implementation is too weak; I'd almost never want it on top of my deck. Maybe if the top half were like Market Square instead.

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Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.

Very similar, but without clogging up the top of your deck. I think this is a much better implementation of this concept.
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Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.
So the pile runs out twice as fast. I don't like that, especially since it guarantees that there will be an uneven distribution of Pyramids (6-4), if you are in a situation where this card is good and you want to spam it. And it seems like whenever it's good, it will need to be at least semi-spammed; if you only play one per turn, you payed $4 for an Oasis.

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Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.
I don't like on-gain attacks, and this is only an on-gain attack ($4 for a Copper is just clogging up your deck).

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Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
This penalty is far too harsh early on, and then too good on the last turn.

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Wayfarer (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one costing $1 or more. Put all the revealed cards into your hand.

When you discard this from play, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper you have in play.
This seems like a cute Counting House variant. I suspect it will rarely draw more than a couple coppers per-play even early on, which means you will be gaining more coppers, which means you draw more coppers. Eventually you get a lot of coppers and then play them and discard them to double-Province. My only concern is that it makes Hunting Party-X seem like a flexible deck type. Literally everything that isn't a Copper, Curse, or Ruins (or have lots of Highways, etc. in play) hurts this deck; even multiple Wayfarers can block the draw and choke the deck.
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Wrclass

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #232 on: September 10, 2013, 06:39:22 pm »
0

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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D I really like this card! The player interaction is so interesting and unique, with a terminal gold thingy for you and a Haggler thingy for your opponents. It may be better at $4 price point though.


While others have mentioned that this is too weak, I think it's worth pointing out that it's so weak that changing its cost won't fix the problem. This doesn't work at any price.

The issue is that your opponents essentially get a free turn. Unless you are building a Crossroads-Secret Chamber deck or something and then don't play the card when you buy green. You buy a Gold? I'll take a Lab for free please. Province? Duchy. Or Bank. Played two of these and bought Gold? I'll take TWO Labs! This isn't a Haggler externality. It's practically giving your opponent a Possession!

I'll let you buy this so I can win.

(I seem to remember a secret history about opponents gaining cards costing less -- but maybe that was about reactions to attacks? I don't remember.)


Oh..... :( I like the idea though......
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ConMan

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #233 on: September 10, 2013, 07:31:40 pm »
0

Quote
Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D I really like this card! The player interaction is so interesting and unique, with a terminal gold thingy for you and a Haggler thingy for your opponents. It may be better at $4 price point though.


While others have mentioned that this is too weak, I think it's worth pointing out that it's so weak that changing its cost won't fix the problem. This doesn't work at any price.

The issue is that your opponents essentially get a free turn. Unless you are building a Crossroads-Secret Chamber deck or something and then don't play the card when you buy green. You buy a Gold? I'll take a Lab for free please. Province? Duchy. Or Bank. Played two of these and bought Gold? I'll take TWO Labs! This isn't a Haggler externality. It's practically giving your opponent a Possession!

I'll let you buy this so I can win.

(I seem to remember a secret history about opponents gaining cards costing less -- but maybe that was about reactions to attacks? I don't remember.)
Yeah that sounds like a pretty big argument against this one. Although, the top half kind of looks like Contraband so maybe it's meant to fill a similar niche - better for buying lots of cheap engine parts than trying to get one big one? Then I guess it's giving your opponent a Possession on a hand filled with Victory cards. Still probably weaker than Contraband, even if it were cheaper.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #234 on: September 10, 2013, 07:48:19 pm »
0

Quote
Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
I like the on-play. It's a weaker Remake, which is fine.

Everyone keeps describing this as a weaker Remake, so I feel like I should point this out again:

This is strictly better* than Develop at the same price.

*Yes, I know "gain a card costing X+2" is not strictly better than "gain a card costing X" in the standard sense. It's close enough for the purpose of evaluating card design though.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #235 on: September 10, 2013, 07:53:48 pm »
+2

Oh, no it's not, Develop gains to the deck, doesn't it.

But still, I think Develop's the relevant comparison here at least as much as Remake.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #236 on: September 10, 2013, 07:54:58 pm »
0

Quote
Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
I like the on-play. It's a weaker Remake, which is fine.

Everyone keeps describing this as a weaker Remake, so I feel like I should point this out again:

This is strictly better* than Develop at the same price.

*Yes, I know "gain a card costing X+2" is not strictly better than "gain a card costing X" in the standard sense. It's close enough for the purpose of evaluating card design though.

I think we need a strictly better phrase that doesn't mean "strictly better," but means what everyone think they mean when they say "strictly better."  How about "literally," another word that doesn't mean what it means?
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #237 on: September 10, 2013, 07:57:13 pm »
0

Quote
Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
I like the on-play. It's a weaker Remake, which is fine.

Everyone keeps describing this as a weaker Remake, so I feel like I should point this out again:

This is strictly better* than Develop at the same price.

*Yes, I know "gain a card costing X+2" is not strictly better than "gain a card costing X" in the standard sense. It's close enough for the purpose of evaluating card design though.
Surely the point is that it doesn't put them on deck, which Develop does. So Develop can do cute "perfect shuffle luck" tricks to set up your next turn.

But you raise a good point (which I missed while going through them, even though I had read your comment before posting), which I'll have to think about.

Edit: Notice that you posted the same thing immediately afterwards. Which brings up an obvious missing name for a Hinterlands card: Ninja
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 08:00:17 pm by Just a Rube »
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #238 on: September 10, 2013, 07:58:09 pm »
0

Quote
Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
I like the on-play. It's a weaker Remake, which is fine.

Everyone keeps describing this as a weaker Remake, so I feel like I should point this out again:

This is strictly better* than Develop at the same price.

*Yes, I know "gain a card costing X+2" is not strictly better than "gain a card costing X" in the standard sense. It's close enough for the purpose of evaluating card design though.

I think we need a strictly better phrase that doesn't mean "strictly better," but means what everyone think they mean when they say "strictly better."  How about "literally," another word that doesn't mean what it means?

How about "better"?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #239 on: September 10, 2013, 08:12:51 pm »
+1

I think we need a strictly better phrase that doesn't mean "strictly better," but means what everyone think they mean when they say "strictly better."  How about "literally," another word that doesn't mean what it means?

How about "better"?

"Usually better."
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #240 on: September 10, 2013, 08:17:15 pm »
0

I think we need a strictly better phrase that doesn't mean "strictly better," but means what everyone think they mean when they say "strictly better."  How about "literally," another word that doesn't mean what it means?

How about "better"?

"Usually better."

That's good.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #241 on: September 10, 2013, 09:02:35 pm »
0

I think we need a strictly better phrase that doesn't mean "strictly better," but means what everyone think they mean when they say "strictly better."  How about "literally," another word that doesn't mean what it means?

How about "better"?

"Usually better."

That's good.

"Usually better" doesn't seem to get at what's actually meant here. I mean, Swindler is usually better than Chancellor, but that's not an argument against pricing them the same, if you see what I mean.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #242 on: September 10, 2013, 09:12:20 pm »
0

I think we need a strictly better phrase that doesn't mean "strictly better," but means what everyone think they mean when they say "strictly better."  How about "literally," another word that doesn't mean what it means?

How about "better"?

"Usually better."

That's good.

"Usually better" doesn't seem to get at what's actually meant here. I mean, Swindler is usually better than Chancellor, but that's not an argument against pricing them the same, if you see what I mean.

Hmm.  "Almost strictly better"?  But that's a mouthful, and I'm still not sure it captures this particular case.  "Usually better for the same purpose" is the meaning we're looking for, right?  Swindler is usually better than Chancellor, but they serve different functions.  Both Develop and Construct trash and gain, but Construct is usually better at it because it gains two cards at the higher price point.  (Though as you point out later, this is not really true because Develop puts the cards on top.)

It's still a mouthful, but it's accurate.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #243 on: September 10, 2013, 10:32:00 pm »
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"Almost strictly better" is probably fine for this purpose.
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mail-mi

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #244 on: September 10, 2013, 10:42:40 pm »
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Quote
Construct
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain two cards each costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you gain this during your Action phase, +1 Card and +1 Action.
I like the on-play. It's a weaker Remake, which is fine.

Everyone keeps describing this as a weaker Remake, so I feel like I should point this out again:

This is strictly better* than Develop at the same price.

*Yes, I know "gain a card costing X+2" is not strictly better than "gain a card costing X" in the standard sense. It's close enough for the purpose of evaluating card design though.
Well, Noble Brigand is almost strictly better than thief. It is probably fine.
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #245 on: September 10, 2013, 10:43:45 pm »
+1

It's as I feared: Many of the Hinterlands card submissions ended being just convoluted, not cohesive, or just strange. This was definitely a harder set to design for than Prosperity.

Some thoughts on a few cards.

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Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
Of the +buy on-buy cards, this one seems the least likely to get out of hand. You have to discard a card to get the effect, so it's not an endless loop kind of thing. Unfortunately, this gets out of hand with a single Highway (a Hinterlands card) in play!

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Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.
Even with a no-victory card clause for the bottom, Dark Ages cards break this ability.

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Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.
Okay, there is a bunch talk about this card. I'll admit it's one the really unique submissions here, though it compares to Native Village. If any kind card form here belongs in Seaside, it's this one. I'd like to see a variation of this later on in the contest. As written, It just seems silly.

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Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Buying this multiple times in a turn does reduce costs each time.
What's up with the clarification here? Why would buying this reduce costs? Uh, seems too strong in the presence of gainers. One Stonemason that gives you 2 Estates makes Estates free during your buy phase.

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Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.
I like the concept, and I'm curious to see how strong it is. It can turn a Silver into a Gold for only $5, but I think you need to reliably activate the peddler on-play effect to make it truly effective. I think what it really needs is some sort of first-game engine.

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Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.
I like this one too. I noticed the "less that this" clause, Which helps with a bunch of balance issues. I don't mind that it's similar to Cartographer. We haven't seen a Cellar variant that doesn't reduce handsize yet.

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Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.
Don't remember if I talked about this one yet, but seriously. I have 1 Highway and a couple of Goons in play. Mega ownage.

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Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).
We should give this one a chance. Cantrip trashing is really strong, but this misses a shuffle. But then, if I open Nomad Camp...

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Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.

When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.
A good Spy effect, if such a thing exists. Sure, there is some AP involved, but this is terminal and actually has a good chance of being effective.

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River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
I notice the anti-synergy with itself and the on-gain effect. Worth a closer look.

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Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.
That on-gain effect is new, and I like it. But the on-play...that's something that should be on-gain, or on a terminal action.

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Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.
I like the allusion to both Island and Oasis in the name (am I missing one?). This compares unfavourably to Inn, I'm afraid

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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.
I don't think people realize just how much benefit this kind of thing is for your opponents. The 3-pile problem is especially relevant in multiplayer games.  But as it's been pointed out, Contraband also has a pretty big penalty, so perhaps it fills a very specialized role. Must it be terminal?

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Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.
I'm for this card. using 4 buys gets you a Province next turn, and all those Silvers help you get at least one Province in subsequent turns. I like this silver flooder with Gambit potential.

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
If you expect your card to be well received, you should distance your card from the stupidly swingy Chancellor and Counting House as much as possible.

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Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.
Reminds me of Scouting Party from the Dominion Outtakes, but this only applies to one player, so it's not such a mess in the end. This fits Seaside much better than Hinterlands, though.

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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
It's been mentioned that this is awful for the game when p1 opens 5/2, especially since this card is actually powerful.

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Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.
I like cards that benefit large handsizes. Weak with the top-only effect, but the bottom effect makes up for that, I think

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Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.
This gets trashed if it turns over a copy of itself, so no, not that broken. I might even vote for it.

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Wayfarer (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to its cost in coins.
Yes. Cool. Salvager in a pinch. Now this feels more like Hinterlands.

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Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
Powerful, but implemented as a reaction that has this card discarded. I don't see what's wrong with it, and I might make for less dreadful games in the end.

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Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.
Barring Pearl Diver, I expect the bottom-of-the-deck thing will be best for junk cards that you want to miss the reshuffle.
You know, sometimes simple and concise is better.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Though it looks like a worse Haggler, it's at least better for gaining cards at the $2 and $3 price range. I'm sure it can be rebalanced if needed. The real question is if Haggler makes it superfluous.

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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.
The issue with this card is that you'll be discouraged to get these if your opponent already has a few because the placing of a card onto the mat isn't optional.

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Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
The top part is cool. The bottom part has potential. Both parts have a draw-and-discard theme. Overall, it's nice, I guess.


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Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you buy this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.
A bunch of Workshop variants, and this one possibly has the most charm. You can't gain Schemes or other actions with it, but it's a cantrip so it's just as well that it doesn't. Silk Roads are fair game for this. Tricky to use right, but I approve.

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Wagon Raider
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Each other player may put a card costing more than $2 from their hand into your discard pile. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse.

While this is in play, when you buy a Gold, you may gain a Province instead.
It's become apparent that it's really a no-brainer to take the curse. Unlike Cultist and Torturer, this doesn't draw, so there's little risk of being flooded with curses. With the "instead" change, this should just make Provinces worth $2 less, no?

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Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.
Weirdly enough, I prefer this without the reaction bit, only because it would belong below a separate line. Or the on-gain can be removed. Either way makes this better.

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Stranger
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Each other player discards the top card of his deck. Copies of cards revealed this way cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
This scales so much with the number of players. It's a cantrip on top of that. This can't possibly work as a cantrip.

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Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.
Maybe this is bland, but it would have been a great addition to Hinterlands. Keep in mind that, unlike Walled Village, this doesn't have anti-synergy with itself. So you will eventually get the +buy when you need it, at the cost of 1 spot in your hand.

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Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.

When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.
I like how this card works, but I actually think this is too powerful at $4.

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Lucky Coin
Type: Treasure
Cost: $4
Worth $1.

When you gain this, each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose.
Why are people so against this card? At least this should be fine balance-wise. It's not like Mill above, where the card's on-play is actually good and getting it denies others from getting Mill. This sucks once in your deck, and it only costs $4. If anything, this saves someone with a 3/4 split from losing horribly to Mountebank/Chapel or something. I have no issues against it.

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Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
Now I'm wondering about how decent of a nerf the forced vicoty card gain is. It still looks too strong on board with hybrid victory cards, Crossroads, or Silk Road.

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Wayfarer (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one costing $1 or more. Put all the revealed cards into your hand.

When you discard this from play, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper you have in play.
This opens up a new copper-based strategy. The effect below the line is what elevates this to nifty/cool/interesting territory.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #246 on: September 10, 2013, 11:35:07 pm »
+1

Quote
Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
Of the +buy on-buy cards, this one seems the least likely to get out of hand. You have to discard a card to get the effect, so it's not an endless loop kind of thing. Unfortunately, this gets out of hand with a single Highway (a Hinterlands card) in play!

Huntsmen is unlikely to get out of hand, because its cost increases.  This one doesn't give any extra buys, and the discard requirement means it isn't even so problematic with Highway.

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Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).
We should give this one a chance. Cantrip trashing is really strong, but this misses a shuffle. But then, if I open Nomad Camp...

What about Nomad Camp?  You open NC, get 2 Artefacts after that... they still miss the reshuffle.  The question is whether the delay is enough to keep this from being too powerful.  I suspect not at $2, maybe at $3 or $4.

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
If you expect your card to be well received, you should distance your card from the stupidly swingy Chancellor and Counting House as much as possible.

The Counting House issue is a fair criticism, but Chancellor is not.  Chancellor is swingy because you draw it at the right time or you don't.  By putting the Chancellor effect on gain, it allows skilled players to trigger it at a good time.

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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Though it looks like a worse Haggler, it's at least better for gaining cards at the $2 and $3 price range. I'm sure it can be rebalanced if needed. The real question is if Haggler makes it superfluous.

I didn't notice the similarity to Haggler before, but it's been pointed out several times and it seems obvious now.  How is Fence better for gaining $2-$3 cards?  To do that, you need $2 in your hand.  With Haggler, you only need $1 in hand to do the same thing.  Haggler is almost always better.

The edge case where Fence is better is when the cheaper card that you want is a Victory card.  Haggler can't gain VP, but with Fence you can buy a green card and gain anything, including another green card.  So with Fence, you could buy Silk Road and gain a Fence or a Duchy.  With Haggler, you can buy Haggler or Duchy but you can't gain Silk Road off of that.

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Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.
Maybe this is bland, but it would have been a great addition to Hinterlands. Keep in mind that, unlike Walled Village, this doesn't have anti-synergy with itself. So you will eventually get the +buy when you need it, at the cost of 1 spot in your hand.

I wholeheartedly agree. :)
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #247 on: September 10, 2013, 11:49:01 pm »
0

Quote
Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
Of the +buy on-buy cards, this one seems the least likely to get out of hand. You have to discard a card to get the effect, so it's not an endless loop kind of thing. Unfortunately, this gets out of hand with a single Highway (a Hinterlands card) in play!

Huntsmen is unlikely to get out of hand, because its cost increases.  This one doesn't give any extra buys, and the discard requirement means it isn't even so problematic with Highway.
You're right about Huntsman. I must have been tired.

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Quote
Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).
We should give this one a chance. Cantrip trashing is really strong, but this misses a shuffle. But then, if I open Nomad Camp...

What about Nomad Camp?  You open NC, get 2 Artefacts after that... they still miss the reshuffle.  The question is whether the delay is enough to keep this from being too powerful.  I suspect not at $2, maybe at $3 or $4.
I guess a Nomad Camp opening isn't much worse than an Artefact/Artefact opening.

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Quote
Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
If you expect your card to be well received, you should distance your card from the stupidly swingy Chancellor and Counting House as much as possible.

The Counting House issue is a fair criticism, but Chancellor is not.  Chancellor is swingy because you draw it at the right time or you don't.  By putting the Chancellor effect on gain, it allows skilled players to trigger it at a good time.
Oddly enough, I was comparing the on-play of Witch Doctor to Chancellor, not the on-gain. If you draw Witch Doctor at the end of your shuffle, it's even more annoying than drawing Chancellor at the end of your reshuffle.

Edit: I mean close to the point when you would reshuffle. What do you call that anyway?

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Quote
Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Though it looks like a worse Haggler, it's at least better for gaining cards at the $2 and $3 price range. I'm sure it can be rebalanced if needed. The real question is if Haggler makes it superfluous.

I didn't notice the similarity to Haggler before, but it's been pointed out several times and it seems obvious now.  How is Fence better for gaining $2-$3 cards?  To do that, you need $2 in your hand.  With Haggler, you only need $1 in hand to do the same thing.  Haggler is almost always better.

The edge case where Fence is better is when the cheaper card that you want is a Victory card.  Haggler can't gain VP, but with Fence you can buy a green card and gain anything, including another green card.  So with Fence, you could buy Silk Road and gain a Fence or a Duchy.  With Haggler, you can buy Haggler or Duchy but you can't gain Silk Road off of that.
I meant that, with Fence, you gain a $3 cost card if you buy a $2, not a Curse/Copper/Poor House like you would with Haggler.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 11:50:37 pm by markusin »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #248 on: September 11, 2013, 12:00:08 am »
0

Quote
Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Though it looks like a worse Haggler, it's at least better for gaining cards at the $2 and $3 price range. I'm sure it can be rebalanced if needed. The real question is if Haggler makes it superfluous.

I didn't notice the similarity to Haggler before, but it's been pointed out several times and it seems obvious now.  How is Fence better for gaining $2-$3 cards?  To do that, you need $2 in your hand.  With Haggler, you only need $1 in hand to do the same thing.  Haggler is almost always better.

The edge case where Fence is better is when the cheaper card that you want is a Victory card.  Haggler can't gain VP, but with Fence you can buy a green card and gain anything, including another green card.  So with Fence, you could buy Silk Road and gain a Fence or a Duchy.  With Haggler, you can buy Haggler or Duchy but you can't gain Silk Road off of that.
I meant that, with Fence, you gain a $3 cost card if you buy a $2, not a Curse/Copper/Poor House like you would with Haggler.

But Haggler comes with +$2 while Fence has nothing.  When you can afford a $2 card with Fence, you would have been able to afford a $4 card with Haggler.  If you have to buy a $2 card with Haggler, you would only be able buy a Copper if you have Fence instead.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #249 on: September 11, 2013, 12:59:00 am »
+1

So, here's part 2 of my card reviews, where I cover the first half of the submissions, and pontificate for the 0 of you who care. I do have a card in this contest (although I won't say which half it was in), so if you feel I'm bashing your card unfairly, I can only say that my card has been bashed pretty heavily thus far.

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Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.
Others have described the balance problems, as well as the fact that this doesn't really fit in Hinterlands.


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Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
I don't  like "when you buy this, +X buy" cards. This one is better than most (and inherently somewhat self-limiting due to the discard factor), but still...

I'm not sure what to think of the on-play; the filter is like a Squire or a Bazaar that always draws a dead card, but the putting the other anywhere in your deck seems a bit strange. Not bad strange, mind you, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. It seems like most of the time, you'll put it on either the top or bottom of your deck; you can't really set up a mega-turn unless you happen to draw the mega-turn enablers in just the right way with this (i.e. spread out so that none are clumped). If you have multiple of these to play, I suppose you can place the cards so that they won't be seen again (or will, if you wanted to discard both) to avoid the Pearl Diver problem.

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Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.
This could just as easily read: Player 2 reveals a 5-2 split or a Baker in the kingdom. If he doesn't, he loses the game on turn 3. Even without letting you trash victory cards, this still has issues with Dark Ages cards. Also, I just don't like the mechanic.

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Hinterland
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Swap the cards in your hand with the cards on your Hinterland mat.

When you gain this, gain a Silver, putting it on your Hinterland mat.
As it stands, you will use the on-play exactly once. You will trade 4 cards of junk for a silver; basically a one-time chapel that gains a silver in-hand. This then becomes a dead card. You never want to play it again, because you are trading your new hand for a hand that you already decided to sacrifice a turn to get rid of. Early turns are more important than later turns, so that won't have been a decent hand. Plus it's a terminal, so you can't even store a powerful action that you for some reason didn't want to play that turn. You can't even use it to set-up a Native Village-Bridge type situation, because it only works if you already had all the NVs and Bridges in hand already; in which case why would you bother with the Hinterland.

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Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Buying this multiple times in a turn does reduce costs each time.
So, this quickly snowballs. Other people have already done the math. But that's a big problem, and not one that can really be fixed without making the card completely uninteresting.

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Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
So, this is strong. We know Draw 2, discard 1 nonterminal proved to be too strong for $4, and this is clearly stronger. Bump the price up.

I don't like the on-gain; it's not clearly a penalty or a bonus, just different. So it doesn't act to compensate for a too strong card (a la Embassy's silver gain penalty) and it doesn't really have an obvious synergy for the card itself, either thematically or mechanically.

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Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.
This needs to say "other than Trade Agreement" at the end of the below the line clause. With that change, it becomes sort of a Border Smithy. Which means it needs to go in engines of some sort (BM will use the in-play clause probably once) to gain engine pieces to go with its draw.

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Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.
I like the idea of an on-gain mine. Like it a lot. Probably more than I should. The top is a highly conditional Peddler. Seems fine.

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Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.
This is a non-terminal Secret Chamber variant. The original Vault/Secret Chamber read "your Victory Cards are also Coppers this turn" or words to that effect, according to the Secret Histories.

Yes, it can stack much more easily than Secret Chamber, but how many $5 VP cards are you planning on getting early?

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Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.

Cantrip Cellar. Seems reasonable. Not sure of the synergy with the on-gain, but maybe I'm missing something.
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Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.
Don't like this. I've already said that I don't like cards that give you +buy on gain, and that's essentially all this card does. And someone else already pointed out the concerns with Highway.

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Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).
Not sure the delay is enough to make a safe cantrip trasher at $2 reasonable. On the other hand, the Chapel problem (needs to be equally accessible to everyone at start, importance as escape hatch in completely junked decks) argues in favor of leaving it at $2.

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Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.

When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

EDIT: Added +2 Cards to Ring Leader's on-play effect.
Super-Spy. I don't like the added decisions/AP. On the other hand, it's terminal, so it's less likely to stack than Spy. In some ways, it's  like a Pillage for the next turn, in other ways it's a weakened Rabble.


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River
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this during your turn, all cards except Victory cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
I'm pretty sure all the good Dr. Who jokes have been made by now, so I'll just stick to analyzing the card. Without buys/gainers, it's just a $3 worth $2VP, like Tunnel w/o discarders. Even with buys, I'm not sure how often in the pre-greening phase I'd want another dead card just to increase my available money by one per non-Victory buy.

I think the idea is to do interesting things with TFB cards (Workshop this, then Remake it into a Gold), which is probably one reason why it's a Victory Card.

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Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.
This will likely be in my hand at the start of every turn (assuming I gain at least one card a turn). So matching up pairs of Factory to take advantage of the combo will be easy. Interesting.

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Sanctuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, set aside a card from your hand. Return that card to your deck at the end of the game.
The above-line effect is extremely weak. The bottom is potentially ok, but not enough to justify a $5 price tag on such a weak action, especially since a $5 hand is less likely to be available in an early hand with junk, anyway. Even when you lower the price, the on-buy is effectively replacing a junk card (probably Estate) with a slightly less junky card (+2 Cards, Discard 2 cards).

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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.
The penalty is way too strong. Unless you are running an engine based on ludicrously cheap ingredients, this will help your opponent almost as much as you with each play, and they still have their own turns to help themselves.

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Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.
A solid Silver-flooder. Very appropriate.

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
Back to my old point about opening. I open with this every time. I Chancellor my deck (and since I've just seen either my $4 or my $5 hand when I buy this, I'm almost certainly getting a better hand than I would normally). I have an excellent chance of skipping most of my Estates for the second shuffle (and note that this card itself gives +$1, which is above average for my deck at this point).

So it's super strong early on, in an unbalanced way. Later on (and really even from the beginning) it's super-swingy.

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Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.
Potentially lots of revealing/decision-making. Otherwise ok?

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Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.
I already said that I don't like +buy on gain, but here it's bad in a different way. $6 is just $2 less than a Province, and there is no reason to buy this if you aren't greening, so you would generally (PPR aside) prefer Province to this, and this to Duchy. That's it. This is just a slight tweak on PPR situations. That doesn't seem worth a kingdom slot.

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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
Once again, openings for on-gain cards. I open with this, all my opponents have their opening hands crippled. I can keep this up as long as it's in the supply, keeping my opponents crippled, while using my money/gainers (and note this is a gainer that can gain itself) to build up and win before they've even had a chance to start building an engine.

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
I am sure there is a joke about the Travelling Salesman Problem here, but I'm not getting it.

As for the card itself, it fuels its draw by discarding Treasures, which is somewhat strange (though again, strange doesn't necessarily mean bad). The reaction messes with end-game greening in a way that I'm not sure I like; I'd be tempted to disallow it to gain Victory cards, just to prevent me from gaining Duchy on all my opponents' Province buys.

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Courier (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. Gain a card costing exactly $1 per card discarded.

When you would gain a card other than during your Buy phase, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.
Another Workshop variant, with a twist. It can always gain $5 (at the cost of discarding your hand). If they collide, the other copies become effectively silvers for the purpose. So there is the synergy. If you can get a big enough hand, you can gain Provinces with it.

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Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.
So, I gave in and looked up Oicho-Kabu on Wikipedia, and apparently it's a Japanese card game resembling Black Jack and Baccarat. I'm now envisioning a player using this card, buying something, and saying "hit me". If they have multiple buys, they can keep doing this until they hit a Victory card, at which point they go bust. So kudos for the theme.


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Wayfarer (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to its cost in coins.

So, a Market Square with an on-buy Salvager effect (without the buy). Too strong for $2, especially since it synergizes strongly with itself (giving cantrip plus buy, which means this card is easy to amass and use to clean out your junk quickly). Not sure what the right cost is, but on-buy trashing, even without being able to spend the coins right away, seems very strong early on.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #250 on: September 11, 2013, 02:16:48 am »
0

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Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Buying this multiple times in a turn does reduce costs each time.
So, this quickly snowballs. Other people have already done the math. But that's a big problem, and not one that can really be fixed without making the card completely uninteresting.

If it only had +1 Buy, or if it was non-terminal, is it still such a big problem?  Or would that make it uninteresting?  Right now the problem I see with it is that non-terminal means it's easy to play multiple in one turn, and 2 extra Buys lets it explode too easily because multiple stack so well.  But even dropping to +1 Buy would slow it down a lot, and removing the +1 action would make it more difficult to play multiples and thus mitigate the scary potential.  Would the potential still be too great?

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Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.

When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

EDIT: Added +2 Cards to Ring Leader's on-play effect.
Super-Spy. I don't like the added decisions/AP. On the other hand, it's terminal, so it's less likely to stack than Spy. In some ways, it's  like a Pillage for the next turn, in other ways it's a weakened Rabble.

I don't really think it's comparable to Pillage.  Pillage removes the best card from your hand.  This replaces your second best card with an average card.  The other player will still get a 5 card hand next turn, so it's actually not that bad.  But I do worry that it could be very unfun to play against, as victims keep getting key cards discarded.  It can happen with Spy or Scrying Pool and that hurts, but it's way more likely with Ring Leader because it searches 4 cards instead of just 1.

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Wayfarer (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you buy this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to its cost in coins.

So, a Market Square with an on-buy Salvager effect (without the buy). Too strong for $2, especially since it synergizes strongly with itself (giving cantrip plus buy, which means this card is easy to amass and use to clean out your junk quickly). Not sure what the right cost is, but on-buy trashing, even without being able to spend the coins right away, seems very strong early on.

Gonna disagree here.  On-buy trashing can be nice, but Wayfarer would not be that powerful early on.  You only get to trash a single card, and unless you only have $2 in hand, you're skipping on Silver or something else.  It's worth doing once, maybe twice just so you have +Buy (and you use the trashing opportunistically) but you can't just buy this -- you also need to get some good cards to build economy.

The real strength of the card is in allowing you to Salvage something in an odd situation.  With that purpose in mind, the cost of the card reduces the effectiveness of the Salvage effect.  If you use Salvager on Gold, you get +$6.  If you buy Wayfarer and trash Gold to it, you only have a net gain of +$4.  Not to mention you need +Buy to take advantage of that money, so you'll need to have already played a Wayfarer (or other +Buy) that turn for it to do any good.

A potential problem is simply that it provides cantrip +Buy for $2.  I think this could work, but I think Tables said in his video that he's tested that before and it's not good for the game.  Presumably too good to get for $2?  I don't know.  But I think the on-gain Salvage effect would be too weak if it cost any more than $2.
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Titandrake

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #251 on: September 11, 2013, 03:07:53 am »
0

I haven't had the time to go through all the cards yet, but food for thought. From Donald X secret history of Dark Ages,

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Hovel is the only one that changed. Originally it was an action you could trash by discarding your hand. It turned out that trashing it turn 1-2 usually seemed like the correct play, even if you drew it with four Coppers. So that was no good. Hovel as printed has nice flavor going for it; you move out of your old Hovel and into a nice Duchy.

So if you consider Wayferer as an empty card (it's a cantrip), it has the potential to degenerate openings kinda badly. However, when you consider that opening Doctor by $1 gives a similar effect, I'm not sure. On-buy Salvager is an interesting effect; I'm just not sure how balanceable it is.

Edit: So hey, I actually have time. So let's review cards now! Once again looking at every other card here. I've skimmed some analysis beforehand, but I haven't read all of it.

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Palanquin
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card per $ it costs.

I don't think it's as good as it looks, the restriction is a bit tougher than it looks. At the same time, I still think the effect is far too strong and impossible to balance to make it worth it.

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Quagmire
Types: Victory
Cost: $3
Worth 1 VP.

When you gain this, trash 3 cards from a Supply pile.

I think this gives too much pile control. I mean, it doesn't sound too bad, until you get behind on a Wharf or Duchy split from luck and then suddenly that pile's empty.

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Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Clarification: Buying this multiple times in a turn does reduce costs each time.
So, in theory, it's +$1 for each Victory card you buy. It looks scary, but 1 copy is okay. And then I realize wait this stacks, and now it's dangerously good. Still, neat idea.

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Trade Agreement
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Trade Agreement, gain a card costing up to $5.
Needs tweaking to avoid draining a pile immediately. Feels like a retread of Border Village to me, with an explicit cost. BV has a "less than" clause for a reason.


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Emerald Vein
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Worth 1 VP.

I can just imagine having this in hand, and nothing else, and going oh come on I can't get +$1 off this to hit $8? Not inherently bad to act that way, but it hurts fun levels. Anyways, I can see it being very strong in engines and not really worth it otherwise.

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Vendor
Types: Action
Cost: $1
+1 Action

When you buy this, +2 Buys.
No, I think trying to add a strong bonus to an on-buy with a useless top half is the "Blood Diamond" problem all over again.

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Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.

When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

The attack seems a bit too good, actually. 4 cards is a lot to look through. Think of Cartographer, and how often you want to keep a card in the 4 you reveal. Now imagine you don't get that. If the sample space was smaller, maybe.

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Factory
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. If you do, gain a copy of it.

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand and put it onto your deck. If you do, put the gained card into your hand.

You can't Factory loop but you can sure gain a lot of copies, which actually start hurting you at some point. I like how it all comes together, it's a cool effect, but gaining with such low conditions is heuristically very worrisome.

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Workers' Co-operative
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$3.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, each other player may gain a card costing less than it.

Oh it's the fixed card! Although I'm going to pretend it's a Contraband variant for variety. Like Contraband, you play it, and then buy two cheap cards instead of the big card you wanted. Fills a similar niche, not bad, I think similarly weak but not all cards can be Ambassador.

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Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
I like the on play effect, the on-gain effect is a bit odd but I suppose it mechanically lets you get Witch Doctor earlier? It's not the best synergy; I play Witch Doctor, now I can't buy one or else I just shuffle all that stuff back in. Gains during turn would be interesting though.


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Shoreline
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 4 VP.

When you gain this, +1 Buy.

It's kind of boring but it's subtly game-warping. Does that make it a good card? Well, it's interesting to me.

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.

Reaction seems too annoying, just conceptually. Even if limited to non-Victory, it's so strong.

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Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.

I'm probably missing a reference. +$2 sounds strong, I suppose it's supposed to balanced out by the trash clause, but I'm not convinced it makes it any better. Pretty good in the building part of engines, very good actually if you pick it up around the middle.


Okay actually this is going to take a while, I'll start from Sultan later.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 03:34:25 am by Titandrake »
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #252 on: September 11, 2013, 06:59:28 am »
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Fence
Types: Action
Cost: $5
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Though it looks like a worse Haggler, it's at least better for gaining cards at the $2 and $3 price range. I'm sure it can be rebalanced if needed. The real question is if Haggler makes it superfluous.

I didn't notice the similarity to Haggler before, but it's been pointed out several times and it seems obvious now.  How is Fence better for gaining $2-$3 cards?  To do that, you need $2 in your hand.  With Haggler, you only need $1 in hand to do the same thing.  Haggler is almost always better.

The edge case where Fence is better is when the cheaper card that you want is a Victory card.  Haggler can't gain VP, but with Fence you can buy a green card and gain anything, including another green card.  So with Fence, you could buy Silk Road and gain a Fence or a Duchy.  With Haggler, you can buy Haggler or Duchy but you can't gain Silk Road off of that.
I meant that, with Fence, you gain a $3 cost card if you buy a $2, not a Curse/Copper/Poor House like you would with Haggler.

But Haggler comes with +$2 while Fence has nothing.  When you can afford a $2 card with Fence, you would have been able to afford a $4 card with Haggler.  If you have to buy a $2 card with Haggler, you would only be able buy a Copper if you have Fence instead.
With the clarity that comes with a nice long sleep, I now understanding and fully agree with what you're saying. I had this vision in my head that you'd be buying a whole bunch on $2s with multiple buys, but most of the time you'd just get a gold or something. The cases where you get 2 victory cards off 1 buy would be very rare.
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Schneau

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #253 on: September 11, 2013, 08:14:51 am »
+3

Here are some comments on some of my favorite cards or card ideas. None of these are mine. Also, none of these are Mine; that would be just silly.

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Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.

When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.

I really like the top of this card -- sort of like Fishing Village meets Wandering Minstrel. But, I really dislike the "When you buy this, +Buy" cards. So, I'm borderline here.

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Consulate
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Discard 2 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

This probably has to cost $5 to be balanced, but I like both the top and bottom. The bottom helps your opponents now, but hurts them later. I like that effect, and I think it works especially well on-gain.

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Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.

This card seems awfully weak, and I'd prefer if you only have to reveal 1 or 2 Treasure cards to get the +$1 to even it out a bit. But, I like the bottom, and it works on a sometimes-Peddler.

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Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.

When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.

This card seems solid and interesting and Hinterlands-y. Good!

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Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).

Optional cantrip trashing is quite strong, but I think the penalty here is really interesting. If this were to win, I might suggest making the top force you to trash a card, which would even it out slightly.

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Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

I like it. Now with the added +2 cards, this might be a little strong for $3, but I guess it's comparable to Oracle. The only bad part is that it could be a little slow to play.

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Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

This is one of my favorites. It has interesting synergy, and doesn't seem overpowered.

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.

Both parts of this card seem solid. I'm a bit worried about the top being too strong, but right now I don't think it's OP or terribroken.

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Tinker's Wagon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, move a card costing between $3 and $6 from the top of one Supply pile to the top of another.

I think this plays very differently from Embargo, and I like the concept. The card itself might need some tweaks, but the idea is there.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #254 on: September 11, 2013, 08:25:43 am »
0

Quote
Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.

When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

EDIT: Added +2 Cards to Ring Leader's on-play effect.
Super-Spy. I don't like the added decisions/AP. On the other hand, it's terminal, so it's less likely to stack than Spy. In some ways, it's  like a Pillage for the next turn, in other ways it's a weakened Rabble.

I don't really think it's comparable to Pillage.  Pillage removes the best card from your hand.  This replaces your second best card with an average card.  The other player will still get a 5 card hand next turn, so it's actually not that bad.  But I do worry that it could be very unfun to play against, as victims keep getting key cards discarded.  It can happen with Spy or Scrying Pool and that hurts, but it's way more likely with Ring Leader because it searches 4 cards instead of just 1.
Sure, but early on that isn't too dissimilar to Pillage; the power level of a key card missing the shuffle and being replaced by an average card (probably Copper or Estate) is not too much worse than just making you discard it. Add that it isn't a one-shot, and has +2 cards to help my economy when I play it; this seems degenerate. It also oddly has 2nd player advantage; I open Chapel, you buy a Ringleader, you have a 2/3 chance of my Chapel missing the shuffle. Admittedly it's a shortened shuffle, but I can play this again as a normal action. If Player 1 tries that on Player 2, s/he only gets a 1/3 chance.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 08:26:47 am by Just a Rube »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #255 on: September 11, 2013, 11:36:23 am »
0

Quote
Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.

When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

EDIT: Added +2 Cards to Ring Leader's on-play effect.
Super-Spy. I don't like the added decisions/AP. On the other hand, it's terminal, so it's less likely to stack than Spy. In some ways, it's  like a Pillage for the next turn, in other ways it's a weakened Rabble.

I don't really think it's comparable to Pillage.  Pillage removes the best card from your hand.  This replaces your second best card with an average card.  The other player will still get a 5 card hand next turn, so it's actually not that bad.  But I do worry that it could be very unfun to play against, as victims keep getting key cards discarded.  It can happen with Spy or Scrying Pool and that hurts, but it's way more likely with Ring Leader because it searches 4 cards instead of just 1.
Sure, but early on that isn't too dissimilar to Pillage; the power level of a key card missing the shuffle and being replaced by an average card (probably Copper or Estate) is not too much worse than just making you discard it. Add that it isn't a one-shot, and has +2 cards to help my economy when I play it; this seems degenerate. It also oddly has 2nd player advantage; I open Chapel, you buy a Ringleader, you have a 2/3 chance of my Chapel missing the shuffle. Admittedly it's a shortened shuffle, but I can play this again as a normal action. If Player 1 tries that on Player 2, s/he only gets a 1/3 chance.

I guess that depends on the disparity between your good cards and average cards. If it were to win, maybe a good tweak would be to look at top 3 instead of 4. 2 would be boring though.
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HeavyD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #256 on: September 11, 2013, 12:02:41 pm »
0

I really enjoy all the feedback and critique, but I feel that once we find a flaw in a card, we bash it rather than try to give some feedback on how to improve the card. If we are voting on cards we feel have a cool mechanic and fit the theme(s) of their set, I feel we should try to improve the ones we are interested in. For example, I will pick on eHalcyon (cause I know eHalcyon likes the extra attention)...


Quote
Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing excatly $3 more than it.

On-buy Mine.  Once in your deck, it's a cantrip that is sometimes a Peddler.  Looks alright, and the name fits (recalling Mine).  Maybe "Mountaineer" would be better.


Quote
Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.

Takes the niche effect of Chancellor and gives it on-gain, allowing greater control of when trigger it.  That's cool.  Epic-level filtering, but swingy because it's onl good if you draw it early in the shuffle.  Mediocre effect.

Possible broken combo: Tunnel.  If I do not vote for it, Tunnel will be the reason.

I like the name a lot though.  Saw it recently (in the Bad Ideas thread?) but it actually works very well for this concept and this expansion.



For Mountain Dwellers, there is a nice short summary with a suggested name change that I am all for. (Great job!)

For Witch Doctor, there is a noted broken combo with tunnel, but is there any way we could reword WD so it works?

LastFootNote told us that the winning card will likely go under revision/playtesting/etc., I haven't submitted a ballot for Hinterlands yet, and I don't want to nix WD if there are ideas for how it could be reworded.
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nopawnsintended

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #257 on: September 11, 2013, 01:39:19 pm »
+1

For Witch Doctor, there is a noted broken combo with tunnel, but is there any way we could reword WD so it works?

Easy enough.  Instead of "reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it." you could say "reveal any number of Victory and Curse cards, and place them in the discard pile."  that's a Chancellor-esque fix, but it might be a confusing subtlety. I think some people are confused by this existing distinction, anyway.
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #258 on: September 11, 2013, 01:42:42 pm »
0

For Witch Doctor, there is a noted broken combo with tunnel, but is there any way we could reword WD so it works?

Easy enough.  Instead of "reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it." you could say "reveal any number of Victory and Curse cards, and place them in the discard pile."  that's a Chancellor-esque fix, but it might be a confusing subtlety. I think some people are confused by this existing distinction, anyway.
I was about to suggest something similar. Instead of just "place them in the discard pile", you can write "reveal any number of Victory and Curse, setting them aside. Put the set aside cards into the discard pile.". Although, I'm not even sure it's a broken combo, considering you still have to draw it early in the shuffle. I mean, have you seen what happens when Rebuild names Tunnel?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #259 on: September 11, 2013, 01:56:18 pm »
0

For Witch Doctor, there is a noted broken combo with tunnel, but is there any way we could reword WD so it works?

Easy enough.  Instead of "reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it." you could say "reveal any number of Victory and Curse cards, and place them in the discard pile."  that's a Chancellor-esque fix, but it might be a confusing subtlety. I think some people are confused by this existing distinction, anyway.
I was about to suggest something similar. Instead of just "place them in the discard pile", you can write "reveal any number of Victory and Curse, setting them aside. Put the set aside cards into the discard pile.". Although, I'm not even sure it's a broken combo, considering you still have to draw it early in the shuffle. I mean, have you seen what happens when Rebuild names Tunnel?

This is part of the reason why I didn't suggest a fix.  The other reason is that there are too many cards to suggest changes for everything.

I only said it was potentially broken.  Golem can also flip a bunch of Tunnels.  If you don't have 2 Action cards in you deck, it can flip all of them.  Golem is tempered by an expensive Potion cost (not to mention you aren't getting full use out of it if you use it to flip Tunnels) while Rebuild is tempered by stalling on other VP cards.  This may be tempered by the Counting House issue where you draw it too late in the shuffle.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #260 on: September 11, 2013, 02:01:10 pm »
0

I think Witch Doctor is pretty cool.  I find it interesting that you generally won't want to buy a Witch Doctor after you've played one, since it will shuffle your junk back into the deck.  I like the idea of Swindling someone a Witch Doctor just after they cleaned out their deck.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #261 on: September 11, 2013, 03:28:59 pm »
0

Here are my favourites.  I will probably vote for most of these, probably not all.  Some cards I like but haven't included here for various reasons, e.g. others have pointed out how similar they are to existing cards when I didn't notice before.  I will not guarantee that one of these isn't mine. ;)

Quote
Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.

Many people have complained that this is too weak.  I like it for that very reason.  It's a $2 card, so weakness is perfectly acceptable.  I think that it can provide some nice benefit to certain deck archeypes.  Keep in mind that one, maybe two of these is likely all a deck needs.  That in itself makes it play differently than Walled Village.  Usually engines want 1, maybe 2 extra buys; any more are wasted.  Walled Village anti-synergizes with itself because you rarely want to play just two terminals; if you want a village, you probably want several, but multiple Walled Villages are liable to collide and get discarded.  But you don't need that much +Buy in most cases, so this works a bit better. 

Yes, Courier is very niche.  But it's neat to have weak cards that are sometimes helpful, and I think this is such a card.

Quote
Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.

I really do think the in-play clause is neat.  It's a penalty that sometimes is a bonus.  It could support unusual early-greening strategies.  Not much to say about it -- I just like it a lot.

Quote
Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than it.

I still think the main action is very interesting.  It's fresh but it feels classic, very simple and elegant.  I will probably vote for this based on the top part alone (and note that it dos hit a minor theme via filtering).

I am not sure about the reaction.  I like that it reacts to others gaining a Victory card, hitting a minor theme and a major theme.  Gaining a card costing less than it... that feels too swingy to me.  Maybe if it was non-Victory cards only?  But an important consideration is that the reaction does require discarding this, which is close to Pillaging yourself.  That helps to balance the reaction.

Quote
Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards
When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

The card has been updated with +2 Cards.  I think that makes this a decently powerful card, maybe enough to warrant a $4 cost.  I really like the attack concept.  It's a Spy/Oracle variant, but I think it feels fresh.  It's also nice that it can combo with Mystic and Wishing Well.

One concern with this is that it could potentially be very slow to resolve.  You're looking at 4 cards for each player and picking out the worst one.  Not sure how much time that would take; I suppose it depends on the players.  It is terminal, which makes it more difficult to play a bunch of these in succession.  And it's good that it has each player choose the order for their own cards, just like Oracle -- if the attacker had to choose for everyone, it would be much slower.

Another concern is that the card may be extremely annoying and too painful for the victims.  It stings a little when Spy flips a good card and makes it miss the reshuffle.  Ring Leader is 4 times as likely to flip that key card.  A possible tweak is dropping it to 3 cards.  2 cards would be too few, and at that point it feels too similar to Oracle.

Quote
Huntsmen
Type: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, +2 Buys. During your Buy phase, this costs $2 more for each card you've gained this turn.

The on-gain +Buy is a very popular fan card concept, and it's one that I think could work.  This is one of the most elegant implementations I've seen.  It very nicely mitigates any auto-pile issues.  The biggest issue I have with it is how it interacts with cost reduction.  To elaborate:

Suppose I have 1 Highway and 1 Bridge in play.  That's "while in play" cost reduction from Highway and just straight up cost reduction from Bridge.  Huntsmen starts at $0 anyway, so there it remains.  I buy a Huntsmen.  Now it should cost $2 more.  But what about Highway and Bridge?  Since Highway is "while in play", I think that it would apply and reduce the cost of Huntsmen to $1.  But the Bridge is not "while in play" so I am unsure about what happens there.  I believe that it would have no further effect, but it's not really intuitive.  So the next Huntsmen costs $1.  If I buy it, then the third Huntsmen would cost $3.

As long as this is clarified, I think this card works pretty well.

Quote
Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.

I like the idea of on-gain Chancellor, as the effect can be good but takes skill to utilise.  As an on-gain, it is not as luck-dependent as Chancellor itself.  A measure of luck is still needed for the top action to be beneficial.  But similar official cards do exist, so it's not like it's broken.  I imagine that this could be an interesting niche card.
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #262 on: September 11, 2013, 03:48:52 pm »
+1

I really, really don't get where all the love for Mill comes from. The only thing hinterlands-y about this card is at the same time the biggest first player advantage you can imagine. Picture having a 5/2 opening with the first player buying a Mill and tell me you still think it's a good idea.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #263 on: September 11, 2013, 04:17:02 pm »
0

Here are my favourites.  I will probably vote for most of these, probably not all.  Some cards I like but haven't included here for various reasons, e.g. others have pointed out how similar they are to existing cards when I didn't notice before.  I will not guarantee that one of these isn't mine. ;)

Quote
Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.

Many people have complained that this is too weak.  I like it for that very reason.  It's a $2 card, so weakness is perfectly acceptable.  I think that it can provide some nice benefit to certain deck archeypes.  Keep in mind that one, maybe two of these is likely all a deck needs.  That in itself makes it play differently than Walled Village.  Usually engines want 1, maybe 2 extra buys; any more are wasted.  Walled Village anti-synergizes with itself because you rarely want to play just two terminals; if you want a village, you probably want several, but multiple Walled Villages are liable to collide and get discarded.  But you don't need that much +Buy in most cases, so this works a bit better. 

Yes, Courier is very niche.  But it's neat to have weak cards that are sometimes helpful, and I think this is such a card.


You've convinced me that this is more interesting than I had thought, but here are two things against it:
1. This card is almost always significantly weaker and less interesting than Candlestick Maker, let alone other $2 cards like Squire and Hamlet. The topdecking not only isn't that strong, but is probably the wrong move in many situations even when you need the +Buy. Having an essentially dead card to start your hand hurts engines a lot -- you'd much rather draw your +Buy dead card much later in your turn. You could potentially make this cost $1 to make it a bit more interesting, but then you run into issues with it being too easy to empty this pile, since it also offers +Buy. Either way, I don't see buying this in a game that doesn't have Gardens or Counting House in it.
2. It's not very Hinterlandsy. The closest you could come to arguing it is that it does something when you don't buy a card. But, that's a stretch.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #264 on: September 11, 2013, 04:20:37 pm »
0

Here are my favourites.  I will probably vote for most of these, probably not all.  Some cards I like but haven't included here for various reasons, e.g. others have pointed out how similar they are to existing cards when I didn't notice before.  I will not guarantee that one of these isn't mine. ;)

Quote
Courier (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you discard this from play, if you bought no more than one card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.

Many people have complained that this is too weak.  I like it for that very reason.  It's a $2 card, so weakness is perfectly acceptable.  I think that it can provide some nice benefit to certain deck archeypes.  Keep in mind that one, maybe two of these is likely all a deck needs.  That in itself makes it play differently than Walled Village.  Usually engines want 1, maybe 2 extra buys; any more are wasted.  Walled Village anti-synergizes with itself because you rarely want to play just two terminals; if you want a village, you probably want several, but multiple Walled Villages are liable to collide and get discarded.  But you don't need that much +Buy in most cases, so this works a bit better. 

Yes, Courier is very niche.  But it's neat to have weak cards that are sometimes helpful, and I think this is such a card.


You've convinced me that this is more interesting than I had thought, but here are two things against it:
1. This card is almost always significantly weaker and less interesting than Candlestick Maker, let alone other $2 cards like Squire and Hamlet. The topdecking not only isn't that strong, but is probably the wrong move in many situations even when you need the +Buy. Having an essentially dead card to start your hand hurts engines a lot -- you'd much rather draw your +Buy dead card much later in your turn. You could potentially make this cost $1 to make it a bit more interesting, but then you run into issues with it being too easy to empty this pile, since it also offers +Buy. Either way, I don't see buying this in a game that doesn't have Gardens or Counting House in it.
2. It's not very Hinterlandsy. The closest you could come to arguing it is that it does something when you don't buy a card. But, that's a stretch.

It definitely hits a minor theme in that it lets you deal with a large deck.  It's like Scheme that way, although it's always self-Scheming in this case.  Since it has +Buy, it also helps you increase the size of your deck.

I believe it does hit the minor theme of "donig something when you buy another card".  I don't think it's a stretch at all.  It's subtle though, sure.

As far as weakness goes... well, maybe it is too weak.  But I think the Walled Village effect is underrated and interesting, and it is a great fit for +Buy.  Walled Village loses out on it a bit because multiple WVs anti-synergize.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 04:22:00 pm by eHalcyon »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #265 on: September 11, 2013, 04:52:10 pm »
+1

I really, really don't get where all the love for Mill comes from. The only thing hinterlands-y about this card is at the same time the biggest first player advantage you can imagine. Picture having a 5/2 opening with the first player buying a Mill and tell me you still think it's a good idea.
If player one opens 5/2 (a 1/12 chance of happening), then there's only a 1/2 chance it even affects player 2.  Only 1/6 of that 1/2 chance will actually hit a 5 opening (granted that does really suck).  The other 5/6 of the 1/2 chance that it matters will only change a 4/3 opening to a 3/3 opening, which usually is not a huge difference (especially considering how big of a difference the opening draws often make with things like Mountebank, Chapel, etc.).  If player 2 opens 5/2 and player one 2/5, then that also hits it down to a 2/3 opening (again, really sucks), but that's also only a 1/144 chance of happening.  Actually, this is the worst case, because then player 2 knows (usually) to get a Mill since his opponent opened with $2.  The other case is that player 2 gets 5/2 and player 1 gets 3/4, which reduces player 1's split to 3/3.

The opening discard attack only matters in 1/12 games with Mill in them, and in 5/6 of those 1/12 games (5/72 games total), it only reduces a 3/4 opening to 3/3.  Often times that doesn't make a difference at all, even in those 5/72 games; opening double $3's on a 3/4 split is not uncommon.  It's only 1/72 games where one player can have a 5/2 split crushed to 3/2.

Remember that cards can be tweaked as well.  It would be easy to fix it with "When you gain this during your action phase", or something similar.  Then you also don't have weird things like Swindler making you discard during your own turn (although that would be funny).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #266 on: September 11, 2013, 05:12:09 pm »
0

Remember that cards can be tweaked as well.  It would be easy to fix it with "When you gain this during your action phase", or something similar.  Then you also don't have weird things like Swindler making you discard during your own turn (although that would be funny).

IMO, changing from "when you gain" to "when you gain this during your action phase" is a really big difference.  Maybe it's OK for Mill because it itself is a gainer, but it's a stretch.

As for Swindler, you can usually just toss them a Duchy instead.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #267 on: September 11, 2013, 05:13:46 pm »
+2

Ultimately, even if you can balance an on-gain discard attack, it still isn't a good idea. Cards are supposed to be fun to play with, not just balanced.
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #268 on: September 11, 2013, 07:31:11 pm »
+2

Quote
Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.

I really do think the in-play clause is neat.  It's a penalty that sometimes is a bonus.  It could support unusual early-greening strategies.  Not much to say about it -- I just like it a lot.
So your attention to this card has enhanced my own interest in this card. I find it fairly balanced as is in the context of an early-greening card in Terminal Draw BM. Gaining a Duchy every time you gain a Gold bloats your deck with a card that gets in the way of the draw, quickly making this as effective as Smithy for drawing treasure. Without good deck filtering, you choke hard.

But, I want to talk about its endgame potential now. Seen in another way, this is a Hunting Grounds fused with a Haggler that forces you to gain Victory cards. The Massive draw looks great for an engine, but the Haggler effect looks great for payload. So I see a big balance issue regarding its megaturn potential. In games using this, I'll want to build up a strong engine, then get a whole bunch of these. The next turn, I put 3 or 4 of these in play, and now I get a bunch of Duchies if I buy a card over $5 and a bunch of estates when I buy a card over $2. It could be bonkers. Just like with Bridge, Goons, and Merchant Guild, this is a terminal action that you want as many copies of in play as possible. But Bridge, Goons, and Merchant Guild act as obstacles to your draw. This is the opposite; it gives 4 cards on play! That's enough to make you Throne your village over this to ensure you have the actions to get as many of these in play as possible.

So I'm thinking that the part below the line is ill-suited for a card that draws more cards, at least as many as this one does. If this must be a draw card, it should give at most 3 cards on play. +2 cards might end up being the balanced number in the end, with a drop in cost if necessary.

With all that said, I like the bottom effect enough to consider voting for this.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #269 on: September 11, 2013, 10:18:24 pm »
+5

Cross-posted: One thing I'd like to note is about themedness. I think rather than trying to shoehorn into the noted themes, just make the card feel like it belongs in the expansion. Someone made a comment that they didn't vote for one of the prosperity cards because it only had the two minor themes. Well, this may be more than enough for me, but the point is, it used VP tokens, and to my mind, any card using VP tokens is Prosperity-feeling, even if that was only originally on three cards. Likewise, any duration card will feel seaside, most choice cards are going to feel intrigue, on-gain or on-buy stuff will feel Hinterlands; of course, whether these effects feel like they fit on the card or have been tacked on is another important issue, but I don't think some strict 'it isn't on the list' thing makes for a fun game. Just my two cents.

Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #270 on: September 12, 2013, 04:09:46 am »
+2

I really, really don't get where all the love for Mill comes from. The only thing hinterlands-y about this card is at the same time the biggest first player advantage you can imagine. Picture having a 5/2 opening with the first player buying a Mill and tell me you still think it's a good idea.
If player one opens 5/2 (a 1/12 chance of happening), then there's only a 1/2 chance it even affects player 2.  Only 1/6 of that 1/2 chance will actually hit a 5 opening (granted that does really suck).  The other 5/6 of the 1/2 chance that it matters will only change a 4/3 opening to a 3/3 opening, which usually is not a huge difference (especially considering how big of a difference the opening draws often make with things like Mountebank, Chapel, etc.).  If player 2 opens 5/2 and player one 2/5, then that also hits it down to a 2/3 opening (again, really sucks), but that's also only a 1/144 chance of happening.  Actually, this is the worst case, because then player 2 knows (usually) to get a Mill since his opponent opened with $2.  The other case is that player 2 gets 5/2 and player 1 gets 3/4, which reduces player 1's split to 3/3.

The opening discard attack only matters in 1/12 games with Mill in them, and in 5/6 of those 1/12 games (5/72 games total), it only reduces a 3/4 opening to 3/3.  Often times that doesn't make a difference at all, even in those 5/72 games; opening double $3's on a 3/4 split is not uncommon.  It's only 1/72 games where one player can have a 5/2 split crushed to 3/2.

Remember that cards can be tweaked as well.  It would be easy to fix it with "When you gain this during your action phase", or something similar.  Then you also don't have weird things like Swindler making you discard during your own turn (although that would be funny).

I forgot this forum doesn't care about games with more than two players...

If you change it to "during your action phase", Mill itself will usually be the only card that triggers that. Just a few cards can make you gain a 5$ during your action phase, and all of them either make you trash a non-starting card for it or are difficult to get (edit: Or need cost reduction/need opponent to gain Mill/need to save up Coin tokens). So effectively, "when you gain this during your action phase" equals changing Mill's action part to:
"+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to 5$. If it is a Mill, each other player discards down to 3 cards.".
The real difference is that this would at least give it the attack type and make it possible to use reactions against it.

Everything else is just trying to make it a hinterlands fit.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 03:22:51 am by Asper »
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #271 on: September 12, 2013, 08:26:57 am »
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I did some playtesting, and Shaman actually seems balanced when its cost is boosted to $5. I used it as a way to get to Margraves all the time, someone else used it as an enabler of crossroads/embassy, and the third person ignored it completely and went for spice merchant / IGG. The third person won. It's only one game, but it doesn't seem too powerful, and I think it's different enough from sage in that it lets you choose which you get to be interesting.

Playtesting inn now.
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Gveoniz

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #272 on: September 12, 2013, 09:52:37 am »
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Quote
Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. Otherwise, +$1 and either discard it or put it back. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it or your hand at the bottom of your deck.
I play tested this and set up a KC-KC-bridge-bridge-bridge hand in about 17 turn with minor support from cellar, but no trashing. All of the card used are non hinterland cards so I don't know how it work in the set itself. In a trimmed deck it is not so useful though so I think it can be said to fit hinterland for dealing with larger deck.

I think it is more complicated than necessary, It can be fix if it is just cantrip or some other simple effects. The first half as it is now seems to be slightly weaker than oasis but with more flexibility to put back cards or use it as cantrip. The bottom part seems to be mainly for setting up combo but I can't think of any more major use s for that.

(The putting back thing is also useful for shuffle control, so as not to draw 2 KC with one bridge and draw the rest of the bridge next hand which misses the reshuffle when I forgot to count the deck the first time I tried it.)

scott_pilgrim

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #273 on: September 12, 2013, 11:29:44 am »
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I really, really don't get where all the love for Mill comes from. The only thing hinterlands-y about this card is at the same time the biggest first player advantage you can imagine. Picture having a 5/2 opening with the first player buying a Mill and tell me you still think it's a good idea.
If player one opens 5/2 (a 1/12 chance of happening), then there's only a 1/2 chance it even affects player 2.  Only 1/6 of that 1/2 chance will actually hit a 5 opening (granted that does really suck).  The other 5/6 of the 1/2 chance that it matters will only change a 4/3 opening to a 3/3 opening, which usually is not a huge difference (especially considering how big of a difference the opening draws often make with things like Mountebank, Chapel, etc.).  If player 2 opens 5/2 and player one 2/5, then that also hits it down to a 2/3 opening (again, really sucks), but that's also only a 1/144 chance of happening.  Actually, this is the worst case, because then player 2 knows (usually) to get a Mill since his opponent opened with $2.  The other case is that player 2 gets 5/2 and player 1 gets 3/4, which reduces player 1's split to 3/3.

The opening discard attack only matters in 1/12 games with Mill in them, and in 5/6 of those 1/12 games (5/72 games total), it only reduces a 3/4 opening to 3/3.  Often times that doesn't make a difference at all, even in those 5/72 games; opening double $3's on a 3/4 split is not uncommon.  It's only 1/72 games where one player can have a 5/2 split crushed to 3/2.

Remember that cards can be tweaked as well.  It would be easy to fix it with "When you gain this during your action phase", or something similar.  Then you also don't have weird things like Swindler making you discard during your own turn (although that would be funny).

I forgot this forum doesn't care about games with more than two players...

If you change it to "during your action phase", Mill itself will usually be the only card that triggers that. Just a few cards can make you gain a 5$ during your action phase, and all of them either make you to trash a non-starting card for it or are difficult to get (edit: Or need cost reduction/need opponent to gain Mill/need to save up Coin tokens). So effectively, "when you gain this during your action phase" equals changing Mill's action part to:
"+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to 5$. If it is a Mill, each other player discards down to 3 cards.".
The real difference is that this would at least give it the attack type and make it possible to use reactions against it.

Everything else is just trying to make it a hinterlands fit.

Hmm...For reference, here are the probabilities that at least one player has a 5/2 opening (or 2/5 opening) reduced to a 3/2 (or 2/3) opening:

2-player: 2*(1-(11/12)^1)/12=0.013889
3-player: 3*(1-(11/12)^2)/12=0.039931
4-player: 4*(1-(11/12)^3)/12=0.076582
5-player: 5*(1-(11/12)^4)/12=0.122472
6-player: 6*(1-(11/12)^5)/12=0.176386

I don't really think any cards were designed taking 5-6 players into consideration.  The 3-4 player odds still seem very low to me, not something that I would hate the card for.  The 13.9% chance that only one player opens 5/2 (in a 2-player game) on a board with a dominating $5 card is much more common, and I feel like that's almost always a bigger concern than getting a $3 card rather than a Mill.

The suggestion to only trigger the gain during the action phase was probably a bad one, I didn't really put much thought into it.

Quote
Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.

I really do think the in-play clause is neat.  It's a penalty that sometimes is a bonus.  It could support unusual early-greening strategies.  Not much to say about it -- I just like it a lot.
So your attention to this card has enhanced my own interest in this card. I find it fairly balanced as is in the context of an early-greening card in Terminal Draw BM. Gaining a Duchy every time you gain a Gold bloats your deck with a card that gets in the way of the draw, quickly making this as effective as Smithy for drawing treasure. Without good deck filtering, you choke hard.

But, I want to talk about its endgame potential now. Seen in another way, this is a Hunting Grounds fused with a Haggler that forces you to gain Victory cards. The Massive draw looks great for an engine, but the Haggler effect looks great for payload. So I see a big balance issue regarding its megaturn potential. In games using this, I'll want to build up a strong engine, then get a whole bunch of these. The next turn, I put 3 or 4 of these in play, and now I get a bunch of Duchies if I buy a card over $5 and a bunch of estates when I buy a card over $2. It could be bonkers. Just like with Bridge, Goons, and Merchant Guild, this is a terminal action that you want as many copies of in play as possible. But Bridge, Goons, and Merchant Guild act as obstacles to your draw. This is the opposite; it gives 4 cards on play! That's enough to make you Throne your village over this to ensure you have the actions to get as many of these in play as possible.

So I'm thinking that the part below the line is ill-suited for a card that draws more cards, at least as many as this one does. If this must be a draw card, it should give at most 3 cards on play. +2 cards might end up being the balanced number in the end, with a drop in cost if necessary.

With all that said, I like the bottom effect enough to consider voting for this.
I like this card a lot as well, but I agree that the endgame potential could make it too strong.  In particular, I think Colony games make it dominating; the ability to gain a Province when buying Colony seems like too much.

I understand the problem with it being a big draw card, but if it becomes a terminal money card as you suggest, then it may be too similar to Haggler.  So here's something else that I'm thinking: "While this is in play, when you buy a card that is not a victory card, gain a victory card costing less than it."  Then you can't rake in quite as many victory points by having multiple of them in play.  With four of them in play, you could still get a Gold and four Duchies, but this doesn't feel nearly as bad as a Province and four Duchies (12 VP instead of 18).  Or compared to maybe the double Province turn you would have had which could have been 36 VP, it's only 24 VP.  Actually that's a lot still, so maybe that's not the best fix...just a thought.

Another interesting case to consider is Duke, where you really want as many $5 victory cards as you can get.


Edit: My probabilities can't be right, because a 50-player game has higher than 100% chance that that happens...I'll try to fix that (I think what I did is an overestimate though).

Edit 2: The probabilities I gave are definitely overestimates, but I don't think they overestimate by much (there are a few cases that get counted multiple times).  I can't think of a clever way to count those cases, but I don't think it affects my argument...
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 11:43:38 am by scott_pilgrim »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #274 on: September 12, 2013, 03:07:56 pm »
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Commenting on two other cards.  I also want to talk more about Used Land Salesman, since many people here still say it's too strong but I am still unconvinced about that.  Hm.

Quote
Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.

When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.

I previously said that this was interesting and that I'd have to think more on it.

So, this is an action Silver.  It lets you gain $5s, but to do that you need at least two Thrift Shops (or TR/KC/Proc) and you need to line them up together.

There is some confusion for me on timing.  Suppose I am playing Thrift Shop for the second time this turn.  It says "when you gain or play this"... so can I place a card on the mat first, because executing the top portion of the card?  I guess it doesn't matter so much in the long run.  If I am playing TS for the second time, I could have used the first time to mat the card I want.

I'm thinking now that the chance to gain $5s is great, but you have to jump through too many hoops with Thrift Shop.  Make it $5, maybe?

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.

I really liked the concept at first.  It's wacky, but I felt like it could work.  Not with +1 Action and +2 Buys, as I and others have pointed out, but maybe as a terminal or with just a single Buy.

Recent comments have me rethinking it though.  Tables called it a "win more" card in his video.  The player who is already winning gets this card and just wins more by being better able to use it.  The player who is behind gets this and can't do anything with it.  I am not fully convinced though.  I can see one player ignoring this and pulling ahead while another player falls behind, with the intention of using this later to jump back in with a big turn.

But overall, maybe the power curve is just too much.  The in-play effect stacks spectacularly.  I don't think this is "terribroken" but maybe it's just too narrow an effect and not as interesting as I first thought.  Since it only helps with buying Victory cards, maybe it doesn't really change strategies in general.  Pilgrimage would play best in engines geared towards a megaturn that can play multiples of these with enough +Buys to close out the game.  It doesn't really do much else... in games where only 1 copy or two helps you out, existing cost reducers already fill the same niche.
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Schneau

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #275 on: September 12, 2013, 03:21:03 pm »
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Commenting on two other cards.  I also want to talk more about Used Land Salesman, since many people here still say it's too strong but I am still unconvinced about that.  Hm.

I'm not really sure if it's too strong or not, but I don't really care -- to me, it's just not interesting enough. It feels like a worse Hunting Grounds early, and a better Hunting Grounds late. Given the fact that it could very well be terribroken, I'm just not into it.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #276 on: September 12, 2013, 03:37:27 pm »
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Quote
Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.

I really do think the in-play clause is neat.  It's a penalty that sometimes is a bonus.  It could support unusual early-greening strategies.  Not much to say about it -- I just like it a lot.
So your attention to this card has enhanced my own interest in this card. I find it fairly balanced as is in the context of an early-greening card in Terminal Draw BM. Gaining a Duchy every time you gain a Gold bloats your deck with a card that gets in the way of the draw, quickly making this as effective as Smithy for drawing treasure. Without good deck filtering, you choke hard.

But, I want to talk about its endgame potential now. Seen in another way, this is a Hunting Grounds fused with a Haggler that forces you to gain Victory cards. The Massive draw looks great for an engine, but the Haggler effect looks great for payload. So I see a big balance issue regarding its megaturn potential. In games using this, I'll want to build up a strong engine, then get a whole bunch of these. The next turn, I put 3 or 4 of these in play, and now I get a bunch of Duchies if I buy a card over $5 and a bunch of estates when I buy a card over $2. It could be bonkers. Just like with Bridge, Goons, and Merchant Guild, this is a terminal action that you want as many copies of in play as possible. But Bridge, Goons, and Merchant Guild act as obstacles to your draw. This is the opposite; it gives 4 cards on play! That's enough to make you Throne your village over this to ensure you have the actions to get as many of these in play as possible.

So I'm thinking that the part below the line is ill-suited for a card that draws more cards, at least as many as this one does. If this must be a draw card, it should give at most 3 cards on play. +2 cards might end up being the balanced number in the end, with a drop in cost if necessary.

With all that said, I like the bottom effect enough to consider voting for this.
I like this card a lot as well, but I agree that the endgame potential could make it too strong.  In particular, I think Colony games make it dominating; the ability to gain a Province when buying Colony seems like too much.

I understand the problem with it being a big draw card, but if it becomes a terminal money card as you suggest, then it may be too similar to Haggler.  So here's something else that I'm thinking: "While this is in play, when you buy a card that is not a victory card, gain a victory card costing less than it."  Then you can't rake in quite as many victory points by having multiple of them in play.  With four of them in play, you could still get a Gold and four Duchies, but this doesn't feel nearly as bad as a Province and four Duchies (12 VP instead of 18).  Or compared to maybe the double Province turn you would have had which could have been 36 VP, it's only 24 VP.  Actually that's a lot still, so maybe that's not the best fix...just a thought.

Another interesting case to consider is Duke, where you really want as many $5 victory cards as you can get.

Right then.

markusin compared this card to a Haggler, which I think is a poor comparison.  Haggler explicitly cannot gain Victory cards, ULS can ONLY gain Victory cards.  This is a very important difference.

markusin notes that he would want to build a strong engine and then get a bunch of ULS in order to have a big turn of gaining tons of Duchies, and that the potential of this makes him think that the card is too powerful with +cards.  I disagree. First, it's fairly difficult to get a *whole bunch* of ULS after building a strong engine, because ULS is a $5 card, and if you already have a strong engine then you could probably go for green immediately.  Second, if you can build a strong enough engine that this strategy works and gives you the win, you totally deserve that win.

There is an interesting comparison to cards where you want a bunch of them in play at once -- Bridge, Goons, Merchant Guild.  You want a lot of these because their bonuses stack so well.  Depending on your goal, you may want to stack a bunch of ULS as well to empty piles in a blaze of glory.  But markusin argues that the former 3 are obstacles to draw while ULS helps with its big draw.  But this is missing an important fact -- ULS may not itself be an obstacle, but it adds an obstacle to your deck every time you use it.  Bridge, Goons and MG all help you build your engine by making it easier to buy more pieces, or giving you VP tokens so you never have to buy a single dead green card.  But each play of ULS clogs your deck further.  +4 cards from ULS is great the first time, but your deck may have an early Estate or Duchy the next time around, clogging up that +4 cards.  And the time after that you have even more green.  Big draw is awesome, but it's less awesome when you're just drawing Estates and Duchies.

scott_pilgrim brings up Colony games as a situation where they might be particularly powerful.  This may be the case.  But Colony games tend to be longer which means you want ULS even less in the early game, because it just means more turns where you are forced to gain a junk card.  And note that gaining a Duchy is even worse in a Colony game than in a Province game.

I don't think the problems you guys point out are actually problematic.  It is not trivial to get 4 of these in play at once.  These are still $5 cards, and they counter their own big draw by self-junking.  And if you are able to do it, you are probably running a decent engine.  It's OK for engines to give you nice results.

I actually think the most powerful use of ULS would be in decks that actually want the extra green.  Crossroads doesn't mind it.  Silk Roads loves it.  Gardens may appreciate the extra points and the help in emptying piles.  But these are combos, and I don't think they sound particularly broken.

Since I am defending this so much, I'll go ahead and state that this isn't my card.

Commenting on two other cards.  I also want to talk more about Used Land Salesman, since many people here still say it's too strong but I am still unconvinced about that.  Hm.

I'm not really sure if it's too strong or not, but I don't really care -- to me, it's just not interesting enough. It feels like a worse Hunting Grounds early, and a better Hunting Grounds late. Given the fact that it could very well be terribroken, I'm just not into it.

That's perfectly fair.  I personally find it extremely interesting, because the clause could be read as either penalty or reward and it depends so much on the board and how close the game is to ending.  I think it adds some nice strategy with a very simple concept.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #277 on: September 12, 2013, 09:53:02 pm »
0

Do you think Pilgrimage is completely broken, or can it be fixed with tweaks to the vanilla bonuses?

Well, of course changing the vanilla bonuses can make it to where the card isn't too powerful, but I don't know if it can be any interesting as well.
I mean the problem isn't that it's broken, it's that it's terribroken. The vanilla bonuses are already quite bad, to the pont that the card overall is really bad the vast majority of the time. But then you get to a situation where you can like play 3 of them, and BOOM, you are looking at huge gains. Actually even then, you need some money to get started. And since it doesn't help you build the engine to get to that point, it's very much a go verrrrry deep strategy. It HAS to be. The problem is there's no middle-ground where it just feels like a reasonable card. I mean, there are cards which are like that to some extent (cough KC cough), but this is even more so. So, what you need to do is change it so that it's better most of the time, first of all. Even if you don't actually make it worse in the play a million category, that's not as big a problem, because it's actually pretty hard to pull off, and it tends to end the game quickly. But ideally you'd make it a little less crazy in that situation as well. So, let's assume we want to keep the green-cheapening ability. First, might want to change it to on-buy rather than gain, so it doesn't have random spike interaction with gainers, though this isn't a HUGE deal. But more than that, probably reduce the number of buys it gives. Right now, 4 and a silver gets you 2 estates and SEVEN provinces. Okay, four of these is hard to do, but seven is an awful lot - three seems much more reasonable. On the other hand, the real problem is stacking these things. One of these, even with the buys, isn't that great - if you buy three victory cards, it provides $3, and that is a lot of work, that's not so crazy. The more you stack, it starts to explode quadratically. So if you notice, the other cards that do similar things are either terminal, or in highway's case don't give their own +buy. So maybe the simpler answer is to just make it a terminal.

Okay, any of these nerf changes, whatever comes down, you are gonna need to buff it, too, or else it will just be bad. So you look at vanilla bonuses to help it. If you give it $1, it starts looking a lot like Candlestick Maker (particularly if you get rid of a buy, which you probably need to, but which would make it fine). Or you can make it terminal and give it some money, but probably that needs to be $2, at which point it is just better than woodcutter, but maybe you can put it at 4? But anyway there it is pretty similar to woodcutter even with the buys. So you could terminalize it and give it cards. But even two cards and you start making it potentially very very good with most villages. So my best thought is to make it terminal, give it $1 and 1 card, make it buy rather than gain, and then test to see if you need to shift it to 4 or 2 or knock it down to 1 buy.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #278 on: September 12, 2013, 10:12:50 pm »
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Okay, new comments:
Courier (A)  - I misread this as a secret chamber effect rather than discard-to-increase-the-cost-of-card-you're-gaining effect that it is. I actually think I liked it better as the SC/Vault effect. It's certainly less novel, but it's also certainly stronger that way (in general, yes yes there are cases where not).

Wagon Raider - the instead certainly makes this a lot weaker, and *basically* reduces the price of provinces (embargo, Contraband, playing cost-caring or adjusting cards notwithstanding) as opposed to doing the same but also giving you gold with your province, which was WAY better. This is a lot closer to balanced now, but I still don't think it's that interesting.

Wayfarer (B) - the new card! And a sorta nifty sneaky one. I wonder how often you just gain copper with the second ability after 'missing'. This card is pretty deceptive - it looks like it wants you to play it straightforward, going for it and copper. But because you have your other starting cards, that won't really work. It's actually just a nice engine card. It starts off as terminal draw which doubles as an early workshop to help you grab components. And then by the time you are drawing your deck, (it's particularly good in sifting engines - can grab a whole bunch of discarded coppers...), it just gains you an extra province (okay, you have to get an 8th copper). So, I *really* like this card, though I think it might be a bit too good for $4.

New Ring Leader - I am pretty certain that this is now the very strongest card in the game, by a good margin (read: totally broken). I think that if you made it cost 5 (not 4, but 5), it would still be in the top 10% of cards overall. Yeah, it's really THAT good. I mean, spy attacks are at their best not when they leave you with a bad card (which you were going to draw anyway), but when they discard your good. Their drawback is that you sometimes basically have to leave a bad card and get no benefit, because you don't want to actually skip their bad cards for them. This nullifies that disadvantage and gives only good. So, it's like you are forcing them to take the worst bit of advisor without the handsize increase. Or you're anti-cartographer-ing them. And particularly in decks where there are just a few key cards (like... in the early game for every single deck), you can just hurt them very very badly. And there are just no counters at all, except moat and lighthouse (okay, stacking the top of your deck with 4 tunnels, you got me). On top of all this, if you take the attack away, it's still a reasonable (if slightly weak) 3-cost, and compares not totally unfavorably to oracle. But most of all, just not being able to play your good cards ever is not fun.

markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #279 on: September 12, 2013, 10:34:32 pm »
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So Used Land Salesman probably isn't as OP as I made it out to be after all, though the argument I thought of to come to that conclusion is different from eHalcyon's. Basically, if you magically have 8 Used Land Salesman in play, you don't necessarily have a megaturn like you would with 8 Bridges/Goons/Merchant Guilds, because it doesn't give coin like those other cards do. You still need coin-generating cards from the rest of your deck. Having those cards in your deck while at the same time being able to get a whole bunch of these super-late is an impressive feat.

That leaves the edge cases where green cards improve your deck (hybrid-victory, crossroads) or games with Silk Roads. Those cases still might be enough to warrant reducing this to +3 cards instead. Only playtesting can say for sure.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #280 on: September 12, 2013, 11:45:20 pm »
+2

Quote
Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.
So, I want to like this card. I really do. It is my kind of card. And I think the power level is pretty good. But the thing which bugs me - and I think it's a fine card anyway, but this bugs me - is that if you want this card, you are ALWAYS going to buy that copper with your spare buy. Even if we forget the top-decking, it brings your money density towards 1.5, which is just always better then you're going to do in the province-centric treasure-based decks that are all that would ever make you buy this.
So I dunno, I like choices, interesting play choices, so maybe you make this be able to hit any 3-cost-or-less, and then you probably need to make it cost 5, which probably means you can bump it to $2. I mean, there is some itneresting tension this card wants to have "Do I want to buy copper to give myself another top-decked card my deck wants?" But right now, the tension isn't there - it's just always a yes.


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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.
When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
Okay, this one also interests me. Top part: if you have:
2 coppers - moat with filtering. (which is also how you'd describe Adventurer)
3 coppers - smithy with filtering. Not bad (compare Journeyman)
4 coppers - you get the idea.
Of course, you can also pitch other treasures, but you get the ballpark idea here, and I don't think it's unreasonable. So then there's the bottom. The bottom is fine, it's sorta interesting, it obviously makes the card better, since it's not compulsory AND you get to see the opportunity cost at every stage, and... I don't really like it? I mean, it's quite a strong reaction, totally messing with your opponent's ability to come back, mostly. They have to worry about buying the last province, because you just react this and get a duchy, and now you're ahead. Or you react 3 of these and get 3 duchies.... So I don't like that, and I don't think the card needs it anyway.


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Thrift Shop
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Action. +$2. If this is not the first time you played Thrift Shop this turn, you may gain a card from the Thrift Shop mat.
When you gain or play this, place a card costing up to $5 from the Supply onto the Thrift Shop mat.

Clarification: There is only one community Thrift Shop mat. Each player does not have his own.
Ah, so this one is really interesting. I have to assume that the author didn't want you to be able to gain the card you put on there with the same play of the card, as that almost totally takes away the main strategic point of having a communal mat.
I really wish it didn't have to be on the second play in a turn. I mean, as it is, you really need to get a critical mass of these for them to be any good, because otherwise it's an action-silver for 6 which trashes piles. The bigger point, though, is that if it didn't have to be the second play, you have to worry much more about your opponent hopping in if you put juicy stuff there, and I like that kind of decision-making. So this is so close to being something I'm very intrigued by (of course I intend the pun), but it's just not quite there.


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Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.
When you buy this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.
I love the top of this. It's baron-like in a way I quite enjoy. It's self-feedback mechanism is just really nice... except that it mostly works one way - I mean, if you want to gain green, you nearly always can, so this is just really really really good with gardens, silk road et al. But whatever, silver-flooding sort of activated conspirator is pretty nice, gaining estates sometimes not the worst thing ever. Maybe too strong, but I love the idea.
Then there's a below-the-line. Man, card just doesn't need it. Feels tacked on. Okay, I know, it gives it all three main types. That just doesn't sell it for me. Also probably really pushes it over the $5 bump, sadly.

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Pyramid
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. +1 Card per Pyramid you have in play. Discard one card per Pyramid you have in play.
When you buy this, gain an extra copy of it.
I sorta wish this gave an extra copy to every player rather than just you. That's still a net good for you, because extra copies are better here, but it ought to be a bit less strong. You will have an early-pile-running problem anyway though.

kn1tt3r

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #281 on: September 13, 2013, 04:17:40 am »
0

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.
When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
Okay, this one also interests me. Top part: if you have:
2 coppers - moat with filtering. (which is also how you'd describe Adventurer)
3 coppers - smithy with filtering. Not bad (compare Journeyman)
4 coppers - you get the idea.
Of course, you can also pitch other treasures, but you get the ballpark idea here, and I don't think it's unreasonable. So then there's the bottom. The bottom is fine, it's sorta interesting, it obviously makes the card better, since it's not compulsory AND you get to see the opportunity cost at every stage, and... I don't really like it? I mean, it's quite a strong reaction, totally messing with your opponent's ability to come back, mostly. They have to worry about buying the last province, because you just react this and get a duchy, and now you're ahead. Or you react 3 of these and get 3 duchies.... So I don't like that, and I don't think the card needs it anyway.

If feel like the reaction part is a bit overvalued. I mean, you have to discard a good $5 cost for the effect, so that's quite a trade-off. Sure, it tensens endgame play, but so does Governor trashing for example, or Smugglers, especially together with TR/KC. I agree though that the reaction is probably not really necessary.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #282 on: September 13, 2013, 07:30:14 am »
0

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Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.
When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
Okay, this one also interests me. Top part: if you have:
2 coppers - moat with filtering. (which is also how you'd describe Adventurer)
3 coppers - smithy with filtering. Not bad (compare Journeyman)
4 coppers - you get the idea.
Of course, you can also pitch other treasures, but you get the ballpark idea here, and I don't think it's unreasonable. So then there's the bottom. The bottom is fine, it's sorta interesting, it obviously makes the card better, since it's not compulsory AND you get to see the opportunity cost at every stage, and... I don't really like it? I mean, it's quite a strong reaction, totally messing with your opponent's ability to come back, mostly. They have to worry about buying the last province, because you just react this and get a duchy, and now you're ahead. Or you react 3 of these and get 3 duchies.... So I don't like that, and I don't think the card needs it anyway.

If feel like the reaction part is a bit overvalued. I mean, you have to discard a good $5 cost for the effect, so that's quite a trade-off. Sure, it tensens endgame play, but so does Governor trashing for example, or Smugglers, especially together with TR/KC. I agree though that the reaction is probably not really necessary.
The point isn't really that the bottom - by itself- is overpowered. Indeed, my first thought was you just aren't going to use it often, it's not going to be worth it. But because you can use it, it only makes the card better. Particularly because while sometimes it's a good 5 effect, sometimes you have like 0 or 1 treasures you'd want to discard, and it's just very good to trade that play in. As for the endgame thing, I thought about governor, and that has the same problem to an extent, but this is a bit worse because of the problem of multiples.
I mean, overall, tl;dr I'm not sure it's too much of a problem in general, I just think that on *this card* it makes it too strong without tying into things well enough.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #283 on: September 14, 2013, 10:29:15 am »
0

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Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
I would raise that with just 2 Pilgrimage cards and $4, a player can buy 3 Estates and 2 Provinces. That is certainly not an unreasonable random occurence in a deck of cards with 3 or 4 Pilgrimage cards in it.

The issue is that if you give Pilgrimage anything different Vanilla effects, it's going to look too much like another card. If you drop that buying Victory-cards stacks the effect (so just a flat $1 decrement for Victory cards) or draw cards, it looks an awful lot like Highway. If you make it terminal or give coins, it looks like Bridge.

Quote
Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.
Interesting. So this is a Peddler variant that wants no Treasure trashing, but deals differently with this issue (so, nicely on-theme). The thing is, I suppose this is a bit swingy a slightly too weak. I mean, Peddler plus is usually $5, but the Plus is only on-buy here, which makes it rather mediocre, AND the issue of not maybe having 3 Treasures in hand really really nerfs it. So: Nice idea, but a bit weak I think.
Great analysis here. I don't like the swing to this one: If I have a lot of Mountain Dwellerses, they will impede each other. If you remove the condition to the Peddler effect, I wouldn't like that it's nothing more than a Peddler on play.
Flavorwise, I kind of like that we can assume the Mountain Dwellers do a lot of mining when commissioned but get pretty lazy thereafter.

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Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.
So, I want to like this card. I really do. It is my kind of card. And I think the power level is pretty good. But the thing which bugs me - and I think it's a fine card anyway, but this bugs me - is that if you want this card, you are ALWAYS going to buy that copper with your spare buy. Even if we forget the top-decking, it brings your money density towards 1.5, which is just always better then you're going to do in the province-centric treasure-based decks that are all that would ever make you buy this.
So I dunno, I like choices, interesting play choices, so maybe you make this be able to hit any 3-cost-or-less, and then you probably need to make it cost 5, which probably means you can bump it to $2. I mean, there is some itneresting tension this card wants to have "Do I want to buy copper to give myself another top-decked card my deck wants?" But right now, the tension isn't there - it's just always a yes.
I like this idea, but I think you're right that right now it's too much of a no-brainer.
I don't understand the name though. What am I smelting to get all this Silver? Sounds like I should be trashing stuff.

Quote
Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
I would worry about this being too strong at filtering for alternate Victory and simple end-game variance at possibly drawing a Witch Doctor just after the last shuffle. I'd like this card a lot more if its discard was capped-- maybe to 4 or something. Probably one of my favorite submissions here for theme and effect. I like that it's a weak on play, so you won't want to put more than one or two into your deck which mitigates how fiddly shuffling each time you play it is.
Takes the niche effect of Chancellor and gives it on-gain, allowing greater control of when trigger it.  That's cool.  Epic-level filtering, but swingy because it's onl good if you draw it early in the shuffle.  Mediocre effect.

Possible broken combo: Tunnel.  If I do not vote for it, Tunnel will be the reason.
Good point about Tunnel being broken. It could easily be fixed by name dropping cards ("Curses, Duchies, Estates, and Provinces" rather than "Victory and Curse cards"). It would make it weaker with alternate Victory cards though, but I like the thing enough without synergizing with Gardens.

Quote
Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
I like the Action, but don't like the Reaction. The ability to gain Provinces in response to game-ending Colony buys seems too swingy to me and it's on a card that isn't bad to begin with.
Edit: Maybe the bottom part would be better like "When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal this. If you do, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand" to make it more thematic and a bit weaker.
I love this suggested change (though the wording right now lets me gain the Copper pile). "When another player gains a Victory card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand. At the start of your next turn, put this into your hand." Would be better wording.

Quote
Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.
This is an awesome Woodcutter variant. A little bit swingy, maybe too strong, yes, but just because of this:
So, I gave in and looked up Oicho-Kabu on Wikipedia, and apparently it's a Japanese card game resembling Black Jack and Baccarat. I'm now envisioning a player using this card, buying something, and saying "hit me". If they have multiple buys, they can keep doing this until they hit a Victory card, at which point they go bust. So kudos for the theme.
I love it. I hope whoever made the card posts after the results come up so I can give him +1's for theme.

Quote
Nomadic Village
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, put it into your hand.
When an opponent gains an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, search your discard pile for an Action card and put it into your hand.
I don't really like the on-gain effect putting it into hand. It seems too niche to be worthwhile.
This also does the "find an action" thing, but it does it as a reaction.  That makes it far more tolerable.  Even so, it's a reaction to a pretty common occurrence and pushes players into playing more BM.  Not sure I like that.
I thought this too. I'd love it if the Reaction was in response to Attacks instead-- especially because you could hunt for another Reaction.

Quote
Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
...
So I'm thinking that the part below the line is ill-suited for a card that draws more cards, at least as many as this one does. If this must be a draw card, it should give at most 3 cards on play. +2 cards might end up being the balanced number in the end, with a drop in cost if necessary.

With all that said, I like the bottom effect enough to consider voting for this.
This in Big Money seems to pretty handily beat BM+Smithy, for what it's worth.
The way Goons, Bridge, and Merchant Guild stack are good enough for me. I don't need a card that's awesome when it stacks that enables its own stacking.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #284 on: September 14, 2013, 11:21:16 am »
0

Quote
Travelling Salesman
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Discard any number of Treasure cards from your hand. +2 Cards per card discarded.

When another player gains a Victory card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing less than the gained Victory card.
I like the Action, but don't like the Reaction. The ability to gain Provinces in response to game-ending Colony buys seems too swingy to me and it's on a card that isn't bad to begin with.
Edit: Maybe the bottom part would be better like "When another player gains a Victory card, you may reveal this. If you do, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand" to make it more thematic and a bit weaker.
I love this suggested change (though the wording right now lets me gain the Copper pile). "When another player gains a Victory card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand. At the start of your next turn, put this into your hand." Would be better wording.

You're perfectly right of course.
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #285 on: September 14, 2013, 12:40:20 pm »
0

Quote
Witch Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Look through your deck; reveal and discard any number of Victory and Curse cards from it. Shuffle your deck.

When you gain this, put your deck into your discard pile.
I would worry about this being too strong at filtering for alternate Victory and simple end-game variance at possibly drawing a Witch Doctor just after the last shuffle. I'd like this card a lot more if its discard was capped-- maybe to 4 or something. Probably one of my favorite submissions here for theme and effect. I like that it's a weak on play, so you won't want to put more than one or two into your deck which mitigates how fiddly shuffling each time you play it is.
Takes the niche effect of Chancellor and gives it on-gain, allowing greater control of when trigger it.  That's cool.  Epic-level filtering, but swingy because it's onl good if you draw it early in the shuffle.  Mediocre effect.

Possible broken combo: Tunnel.  If I do not vote for it, Tunnel will be the reason.
Good point about Tunnel being broken. It could easily be fixed by name dropping cards ("Curses, Duchies, Estates, and Provinces" rather than "Victory and Curse cards"). It would make it weaker with alternate Victory cards though, but I like the thing enough without synergizing with Gardens.
You know, I was worried about this being too strong, but as you said, it's rather weak on play. There's only so many times that you'd want to reshuffle your deck with the on-gain ability before it stops being worth it. This one could grow on me.

Voting is going to be tricky for me. I've changed my mind about a whole bunch of cards since the start.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #286 on: September 14, 2013, 02:08:22 pm »
0

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Used Land Salesman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+4 Cards.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Victory cards costing less than it.
...
So I'm thinking that the part below the line is ill-suited for a card that draws more cards, at least as many as this one does. If this must be a draw card, it should give at most 3 cards on play. +2 cards might end up being the balanced number in the end, with a drop in cost if necessary.

With all that said, I like the bottom effect enough to consider voting for this.
This in Big Money seems to pretty handily beat BM+Smithy, for what it's worth.
The way Goons, Bridge, and Merchant Guild stack are good enough for me. I don't need a card that's awesome when it stacks that enables its own stacking.

Is that from testing, or from theory?  I would say that it's fine if it handily beats Smithy considering that this is a $5 card and Smithy is a $4.  Wharf also handily beats Smithy!

But I still question it.  When you play Smithy-BM, you'll still buy Silver and Gold through the game.  Are you going to do that with ULS?  Late in the game it's fine, but it's really bad early.  And consider -- the first time you play ULS you get an extra card over Smithy.  But then you buy something, and now there is an extra dead green card in your deck.  The next time you play ULS you might get +4 cards, but since you have an extra dead card you can imagine that it lowers the effectiveness of ULS' draw to that of Smithy (I know it's not the same, but it's close).  Subsequent plays are even worse.

I would not say that ULS enables self-stacking that much better than Bridge or Goons, since it is still a terminal card.  It helps sure, but you still need villages.  I'm also unconvinced that ULS stacks as well as Bridge and Goons, and I've explained my reasoning before.  Stacking ULS just gives you more dead cards.  Occasionally you get to use it to great effect and build a strong lead, but I think those are rare cases where it's a cool combo, not a broken one.  If it does stack, it does so in a way that I think would feel very different from Bridge, Goons or Merchant Ship.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #287 on: September 14, 2013, 02:25:28 pm »
+1

I noticed that there seems to be much smaller a gap between the cards that are good and bad, and I expect the votes to show that. Hinterlands has just not as obvious a theme as Prosperity or Dark ages, for that matter.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #288 on: September 14, 2013, 02:55:36 pm »
+1

I think BM/ULS would be pretty good, normally the question on $6 for BM is "Gold or Duchy?", with this you get both. If it's time for green, getting a Duchy free with your Province is also a plus. One more green card in your deck isn't such a big deal when ULS draws one more card than Smithy anyway, though I expect that at +3 Cards it would still beat BM/Smithy.

As for buying Silver, how are you going to draw 4 cards (or even 3 cards) and not have $6? If it's late enough that you're going to draw so many green cards to not hit $6, it's late enough that you do want that free Estate with your Silver (or Duchy).
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #289 on: September 14, 2013, 02:57:03 pm »
+4

How much does one have to use land before it becomes "used"? Am I using my land right now???
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Fragasnap

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #290 on: September 14, 2013, 03:06:13 pm »
0

I think BM/ULS would be pretty good, normally the question on $6 for BM is "Gold or Duchy?", with this you get both. If it's time for green, getting a Duchy free with your Province is also a plus. One more green card in your deck isn't such a big deal when ULS draws one more card than Smithy anyway, though I expect that at +3 Cards it would still beat BM/Smithy.

As for buying Silver, how are you going to draw 4 cards (or even 3 cards) and not have $6? If it's late enough that you're going to draw so many green cards to not hit $6, it's late enough that you do want that free Estate with your Silver (or Duchy).
This precisely. So much this.
It makes buying Gold or Duchy a boring decision in an already boring strategy and discourages buying fun $5 cards and instead buying boring, functional Gold. You want to talk about assisting Big Money: How about practically requiring it? Wharf is powerful, but is powerful in both engines and big money. I don't think Used Land Saleman is worth dealing with its power in big money for the times its going to do something more interesting.

I also really don't like the name, but that can be fixed in post.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #291 on: September 14, 2013, 03:11:33 pm »
0

I think BM/ULS would be pretty good, normally the question on $6 for BM is "Gold or Duchy?", with this you get both. If it's time for green, getting a Duchy free with your Province is also a plus. One more green card in your deck isn't such a big deal when ULS draws one more card than Smithy anyway, though I expect that at +3 Cards it would still beat BM/Smithy.

As for buying Silver, how are you going to draw 4 cards (or even 3 cards) and not have $6? If it's late enough that you're going to draw so many green cards to not hit $6, it's late enough that you do want that free Estate with your Silver (or Duchy).
This precisely. So much this.
It makes buying Gold or Duchy a boring decision in an already boring strategy and discourages buying fun $5 cards and instead buying boring, functional Gold. You want to talk about assisting Big Money: How about practically requiring it? Wharf is powerful, but is powerful in both engines and big money. I don't think Used Land Saleman is worth dealing with its power in big money for the times its going to do something more interesting.

I also really don't like the name, but that can be fixed in post.
How often do you buy Duchy to get the Gold when you have Hoard?  I feel like this is exactly the same situation.  Obviously there are a lot of other ways that ULS differs from Hoard, but Hoard isn't game-breaking because it gives you Gold and Duchy at the same time.  That's not really something you want to do until after you've started greening usually.

I'm still wondering why you think BM+ULS is better than BM Smithy, because it's not at all obvious to me which is better.  If you have simulations to back it up, or at least some play testing, I would believe it, but you just asserted it without explaining where it came from.
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dghunter79

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #292 on: September 14, 2013, 03:23:11 pm »
0

I'm still wondering why you think BM+ULS is better than BM Smithy, because it's not at all obvious to me which is better.  If you have simulations to back it up, or at least some play testing, I would believe it, but you just asserted it without explaining where it came from.

To be fair, he didn't assert anything, he just hypothesized.

Fragasnap

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #293 on: September 14, 2013, 03:34:37 pm »
0

How often do you buy Duchy to get the Gold when you have Hoard?  I feel like this is exactly the same situation.  Obviously there are a lot of other ways that ULS differs from Hoard, but Hoard isn't game-breaking because it gives you Gold and Duchy at the same time.  That's not really something you want to do until after you've started greening usually.
Hoard is a Treasure that produces $2 at a cost of $6. Used Land Salesman is an Action that draws 4 cards (which needs a money density of 0.5 to be worse than +$2 on average) at a cost of $5. Opportunity cost is a lot higher on Hoard.

I'm still wondering why you think BM+ULS is better than BM Smithy, because it's not at all obvious to me which is better.  If you have simulations to back it up, or at least some play testing, I would believe it, but you just asserted it without explaining where it came from.

To be fair, he didn't assert anything, he just hypothesized.
Apologies. I'm extrapolating my hypothesis from a very small sample of real play tests, thus my noncommittal statement of it seeming to best Smithy Big Money.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #294 on: September 14, 2013, 03:44:50 pm »
+1

Actually I always take the Duchy with Hoard, otherwise what did I want the Hoard for? I'll even take an Estate if that's the best I can do. With two Hoards, my deck generally doesn't stall, because I can buy more money with other hands, and sometimes you get both Hoards in play at once.

I think Fragasnap is probably right that ULS is practically unusable outside of BM, to the detriment of the game. The only exceptions I can think of are the obvious combo with Silk Road, and taking a free Great Hall or Island (or, when buying a Province, a free Nobles or Harem). Maybe you could play it with Watchtower trashing the Estates, just because you want the +4 Cards...
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #295 on: September 14, 2013, 03:45:52 pm »
+3

Ugh.  I have no idea which cards to vote for.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #296 on: September 14, 2013, 03:47:26 pm »
0

How often do you buy Duchy to get the Gold when you have Hoard?  I feel like this is exactly the same situation.  Obviously there are a lot of other ways that ULS differs from Hoard, but Hoard isn't game-breaking because it gives you Gold and Duchy at the same time.  That's not really something you want to do until after you've started greening usually.
Hoard is a Treasure that produces $2 at a cost of $6. Used Land Salesman is an Action that draws 4 cards (which needs a money density of 0.5 to be worse than +$2 on average) at a cost of $5. Opportunity cost is a lot higher on Hoard.

I'm still wondering why you think BM+ULS is better than BM Smithy, because it's not at all obvious to me which is better.  If you have simulations to back it up, or at least some play testing, I would believe it, but you just asserted it without explaining where it came from.

To be fair, he didn't assert anything, he just hypothesized.
Apologies. I'm extrapolating my hypothesis from a very small sample of real play tests, thus my noncommittal statement of it seeming to best Smithy Big Money.

Initial opportunity cost doesn't matter here. After you have Hoard, is it game breaking that you can buy a Duchy to get a Gold? No; in fact it may be inadvisable. Likewise, buying Gold  and being forced to take a Duchy is not actually amazing early on.

If ULS only gave +3 cards, i would actually think Smithy-BM has a better chance of winning.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 03:52:17 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #297 on: September 14, 2013, 05:31:29 pm »
+1

Ugh.  I have no idea which cards to vote for.

Vote for mine. ;)
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #298 on: September 14, 2013, 05:31:55 pm »
+4

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #299 on: September 14, 2013, 05:39:12 pm »
+5

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #300 on: September 14, 2013, 06:10:37 pm »
0

I think Fragasnap is probably right that ULS is practically unusable outside of BM, to the detriment of the game. The only exceptions I can think of are the obvious combo with Silk Road, and taking a free Great Hall or Island (or, when buying a Province, a free Nobles or Harem). Maybe you could play it with Watchtower trashing the Estates, just because you want the +4 Cards...

So from what I can see, this is a really simple card that is extremely interesting already because opinion on it is so divergent.  There were people who thought it would be too strong in an engine, stacking like Goons or Bridge.  There are people who think it is unusable for engines.  There are people who think it is too good for BM -- and on this note, I will say that however strong it is, I'm pretty sure Wharf-BM is still better.

I think that it often will be pretty weak for engines.  Warfreak points out a few exceptions with alt VP and Watchtower.  I have one more that I think is very cool -- "Remodel" style engines.  That is to say, engines that have an emphasis on Remodeling (or Expanding or Developing).  That fits pretty nicely with Hinterlands, where there are several cards that you want just for the on-gain and would be happy to Remodel.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #301 on: September 14, 2013, 06:54:12 pm »
+1

It is obviously terrible for engines. The first thing an engine needs is draw, normally it adds a payload (e.g. 7 Bridges, or 90 Saboteurs) once it can reliably draw itself. ULS is a draw card, so it wants to be bought and played early, but it gives you Estates every time you buy engine components, so it's just totally unfit for purpose.

I don't think it's "too" good for BM, the problem is that it's pretty good for BM but nothing else. I don't know if it's as good as Wharf/BM (I suspect it is competitive), but Wharf is a good card because it's even more powerful in an engine. You don't see Wharf on the board and think "well, looks like a BM game", but on many boards where an engine is possible, the addition of ULS would make it a clear BM board. That's detrimental to the game.

The Watchtower thing is nothing more than a gimmick, you either need enough junk Watchtowers, or draw your deck, to be sure you'll get one in hand. If you can't draw your deck yet, it's not safe to add a ULS, and if you can, another draw card is superfluous. The only engine where it seems like a good idea would be a Conspirator engine which is activated by Great Halls, hoping to draw your deck by the time the Great Halls have run out; but for a four-card combo, that's not very spectacular.

Turbo-Remodel is generally not a good strategy; junking yourself with the whole Estate pile isn't going to improve it.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #302 on: September 14, 2013, 07:19:46 pm »
0

Not so much talking about "turbo Remodel" as games without +Buy but extra gaining in the form of Remodel-family cards.  I remember an isotropic log where (I think) Stef or Marin managed to play an engine game when there wasn't any +Buy thanks to Cache and Expand, IIRC.  Cache was used to gain more cards from a single Buy, giving more fodder for Expand.

Rather than considering ULS as primary draw, maybe it should be considered part draw, part payload.  If it was the only draw, yeah that's probably not so good for an engine.  But it does help engines by letting you gain multiple VP cards in a turn.

It still seems to me that this simple card has some really interesting strategic implications.  I think people are having conflicting evaluations of it because the strategy for it would end up being quite different from existing cards, and that's a plus in my book.

As far as BMX goes... I really doubt that this is competitive with Wharf-BM.  ULS will clog more quickly from early Duchies, and Wharf can make up for those points without much trouble since it has +Buy built in.  I really think that ULS would be closer to Smithy-BM, where it gets some advantage from the extra VP cards but loses out in the extra dead cards from early plays.  Maybe that's wrong, I don't know.  Even if ULS is strong BM, I don't see a big problem with that.  Other engines could still outrace it, possibly making use of ULS, possibly ignoring it.  It's not terrible to have a BM-ish card sometimes either.

Whoever designed this card, I hope you appreciate all the defense you're getting from me. ;)
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #303 on: September 14, 2013, 09:05:13 pm »
0

I think Fragasnap is probably right that ULS is practically unusable outside of BM, to the detriment of the game. The only exceptions I can think of are the obvious combo with Silk Road, and taking a free Great Hall or Island (or, when buying a Province, a free Nobles or Harem). Maybe you could play it with Watchtower trashing the Estates, just because you want the +4 Cards...

So from what I can see, this is a really simple card that is extremely interesting already because opinion on it is so divergent.  There were people who thought it would be too strong in an engine, stacking like Goons or Bridge.  There are people who think it is unusable for engines.  There are people who think it is too good for BM -- and on this note, I will say that however strong it is, I'm pretty sure Wharf-BM is still better.

I only commented on cards that I liked to this point, but given all the attention paid to ULS, I'll give a comment.  I'm not a huge fan of this one.  In particular, the issue of how crazy it is in Colony games is worth emphasizing.  People have mentioned that you get a Province with your Colony if you hit $11 with this, but equally important is that you get a Province with your Platinum, and no longer have to choose between Plat and Province.  That seems to me to be a big deal.

Also, I have to agree with previous comments (I forget who made them) that the gaining Victory cards feels odd for a mega-terminal draw card (i.e., +4, rather than +3 Cards).  If I'm going for BM-terminal draw, I like to get lots of money density.  The fact that the "bonus" on the card hurts that objective makes this less interesting to me.  That's a matter of taste.  I can see people liking having to fight the card to get the money density up, but that's just not for me (sorry).

Most of all, this just doesn't feel like Hinterlands to me.  Hinterlands has a lot of gainers, but they gain things that tend to help you with big, ugly decks (usually treasure, thinking IGG, Trader, Jack, Tunnel, Cache), rather than junk them up.  The gain here is supposed to be junk, so there's that.  Plus, none of these are primarily payload gainers like ULS (maybe with the exception of using Haggler to gain a Border Village to gain a Duchy, but that involves two cards, not just playing one).  So, in my view, ULS has a different feel than Hinterlands.  Maybe that's a plus for people out there, but it is a minus for me.

*FWIW: Divergent opinions on the strength of cards might be worth liking a card more, but divergent opinions on the interestingness are not.  By my reading, the commentary about ULS has been equal parts disagreement about strength and interestingness/taste.  I could be reading the comments incorrectly though.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #304 on: September 14, 2013, 09:09:04 pm »
0

If I'm going for BM-terminal draw, I like to get lots of money density.  The fact that the "bonus" on the card hurts that objective makes this less interesting to me.
If you're playing BM-terminal draw, your average hand (after playing the draw card) will be larger, so your money density can be lower than if you just played straight BM.
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nopawnsintended

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #305 on: September 14, 2013, 09:42:04 pm »
0

If I'm going for BM-terminal draw, I like to get lots of money density.  The fact that the "bonus" on the card hurts that objective makes this less interesting to me.
If you're playing BM-terminal draw, your average hand (after playing the draw card) will be larger, so your money density can be lower than if you just played straight BM.

For this comment, my baseline feeling was not a pure BM deck (rather, other BM terminal draw decks), but your point is fair enough.  Maybe that's the purpose for the extra card draw, but my objections to the card pertain more to whether I would enjoy playing with it and whether it feels like Hinterlands (to me) than if the card would be a good BM enabler. My point here was that it doesn't feel like my kind of bm;td card.  If I were to try playing with it, I could be wrong about its feel though.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #306 on: September 14, 2013, 10:12:37 pm »
0

My point here was that it doesn't feel like my kind of bm;td card.

What does "bm;td" stand for?  Big Money...?

On a different note -- is the voting period for this contest also extended?  I haven't sent votes in for this one yet.

Also, any other cards people want to talk about?
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nopawnsintended

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #307 on: September 14, 2013, 10:25:45 pm »
0

My point here was that it doesn't feel like my kind of bm;td card.

What does "bm;td" stand for?  Big Money...?

On a different note -- is the voting period for this contest also extended?  I haven't sent votes in for this one yet.

Also, any other cards people want to talk about?

Big Money; Terminal Draw.  bm;td is my own, unless someone else independently discovered it.
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Lhurgoyf

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #308 on: September 14, 2013, 10:29:18 pm »
0

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
I would raise that with just 2 Pilgrimage cards and $4, a player can buy 3 Estates and 2 Provinces. That is certainly not an unreasonable random occurence in a deck of cards with 3 or 4 Pilgrimage cards in it.

The issue is that if you give Pilgrimage anything different Vanilla effects, it's going to look too much like another card. If you drop that buying Victory-cards stacks the effect (so just a flat $1 decrement for Victory cards) or draw cards, it looks an awful lot like Highway. If you make it terminal or give coins, it looks like Bridge.

What about this change:

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards with the same name cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

So you can chain-buy Duchies or Estates, but two estate-buys don't affect Provinces at all. Hm this makes it very unhelpful in Province buys, but at least it isn't overpowered. What do you think?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #309 on: September 14, 2013, 10:31:16 pm »
0

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
I would raise that with just 2 Pilgrimage cards and $4, a player can buy 3 Estates and 2 Provinces. That is certainly not an unreasonable random occurence in a deck of cards with 3 or 4 Pilgrimage cards in it.

The issue is that if you give Pilgrimage anything different Vanilla effects, it's going to look too much like another card. If you drop that buying Victory-cards stacks the effect (so just a flat $1 decrement for Victory cards) or draw cards, it looks an awful lot like Highway. If you make it terminal or give coins, it looks like Bridge.

What about this change:

Quote
Pilgrimage
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +2 Buys.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, Victory cards with the same name cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

So you can chain-buy Duchies or Estates, but two estate-buys don't affect Provinces at all. Hm this makes it very unhelpful in Province buys, but at least it isn't overpowered. What do you think?

I think it's a very interesting change.  Maybe too big a change though, for this contest.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #310 on: September 14, 2013, 10:31:44 pm »
0

It'd still be somewhat broken, you'd only need four of them and $12 to buy all the Provinces. Three and $15 would get 7, only 1 Buy short of all 8.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 10:33:31 pm by Warfreak2 »
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nopawnsintended

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #311 on: September 14, 2013, 10:58:01 pm »
0

My point here was that it doesn't feel like my kind of bm;td card.
Also, any other cards people want to talk about?

How about these three?

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you buy gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

Quote
Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.

These are my favorites on the list of 8 that I mentioned before.

On Chapterhouse, I like the split between Buy and Gain.  It also seems like a nice sifter for small hand strategies, which fits the Hinterlands theme well.  People tend to be split on liking the top and/or bottom.  I like it all.

On Barn, I like the fact that the gaining combos with the sifting to handle and enable big, junky decks that are good for Alt VP.  Also, there's a Hinter-combo people haven't brought up: with two Barns, you can gain and discard a Tunnel in the same turn.  Also, if you like that people seem conflicted on its cost, some have called it strong and some have called it weak.  On the commentary, people have called this card too complicated while others have liked it.  As others have mentioned, the card could probably do without the below the line effect for those who don't like complexity.

On Safe House, I have a soft spot for Tunnel, and this is Tunnel for junking attacks.  I like that a lot.  On the other hand, others have mentioned that this enables buying a "better Cache" for $0 at the cost of having a victory card in the deck.  Viewed that way, it might be too strong.  I don't know.  I still like it, but maybe that's because I don't like curses... so I appreciate strong defenses to them.  Also, others have called this too similar to Tunnel.  I'm not sure it is too similar, but I can see that point too.  I guess my favorite part of Hinterlands is the Tunneling. 
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GwinnR

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #312 on: September 15, 2013, 01:22:31 am »
+3

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Warfreak2

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #313 on: September 15, 2013, 05:40:42 am »
0

Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you buy gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

Autopile with one Bridge in play? I'll take 10 of these and rush Silk Roads, thanks. Broken.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #314 on: September 15, 2013, 09:30:15 am »
0

Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you buy gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

Autopile with one Bridge in play? I'll take 10 of these and rush Silk Roads, thanks. Broken.

Oops, I crossed out the wrong word.  I guess this had been fixed, and I unfixed it. :-/ 

Finally, Barn's on-gain clause has become on-buy to avoid piling issues.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #315 on: September 15, 2013, 10:10:29 am »
+1

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.
The on-buy\on-gain effect is cute, but I think it's too technical where Hinterlands is so easy to explain for the most part. The Action effect is a fun little variant on Peddler, but looks too much like a big-Oasis unless you have the few cards you can easily use to drop your handsize down (and this stacks properly as opposed to Oasis, obviously).

Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you buy this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.
This seems so fiddly to me. When I first read it, I didn't catch that it gives +$1 because there's so much going on here. Discarding Victory cards for Silver into hand makes this basically better than Explorer and discarding anything else turns this into a sort of Oasis, except that it junks you up with Estates (and that they go into hand is important for stacking Barns).
I'd love to gain Silk Roads, Gardens, Tunnels, or Great Halls with this stuff. That would be stupidly strong.

Quote
Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.
I don't like how similar this is to Tunnel. In fact, I'd say it's often better than Tunnel since it turns Coppers into half-Caches. Tunnel is already Tunnel. Tunnel is strong. We don't really need another Tunnel.
I'm also not excited about having a Victory card from Hinterlands rather than Intrigue. Furthermore, we already have Tunnel, Island, Farmland, Harem, and Nobles that give flat 2VP. If we're going to have another Victory card, I'd rather it be something more interesting than that.
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Schneau

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #316 on: September 15, 2013, 08:08:43 pm »
+4

• The deadline for turning in your ballots is Monday, September 16, 2013 at 8am CDT.

Voting closes tomorrow! Get in your votes if you want them to count!
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #317 on: September 15, 2013, 08:43:04 pm »
0

My point here was that it doesn't feel like my kind of bm;td card.
Also, any other cards people want to talk about?

How about these three?

Quote
Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.

When you buy gain this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

Quote
Safe House
Types: Victory – Reaction
Cost: $3
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain a card costing $0, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Gold.

I also really like the on-buy/gain of Chapterhouse, but it was pointed out that this may be quite confusing for players not on f.ds.  It's a point of practicality, but I think a very valid one.  The main action did not click for me, but I'm starting to like it a little more.  Thinking more on it though, I am concerned about the power.  It gives $1, then it's a Lab (from 5 card hand) followed by a discard.  If chained, the draw is as strong as Governor.  Kind of hard to get a feel for how good that is.

Overall though, my favourite part of the card is also the thing that kills it.


I don't like Barn because it feels very fiddly.  Not really looking for another silver gainer.  Some people were speculating that ULS would only be viable in BM; well there's pretty much no question for this one.  It usually just gives you Silvers and Estates, neither of which are conducive to an engine.  It's not so great with alt treasure -- you'll only want a single copy of most of the treasures at $4 or less, and you'll want them on t1 if at all.  It is likely to be extremely powerful with several alt VPs, but not in an interesting way.


On Safe House, I do like the reaction as a response to junkers.  I don't like it as a way to get $0 half-Caches.  And I do think that it is too similar to Tunnel.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #318 on: September 16, 2013, 02:30:50 am »
0

Some last thoughts i had:

Midnight Gathering and Shaman are basically the same idea, but differently balanced. I like Midnight Gathering a bit more, and i also think it's not such a bad idea. Of course it's basically a 5$ that only later decides which of your cards it will be, but it still needs you buying those originals.

Stranger should use the Tribute method to find the cards which should become cheaper. I like the general idea and so i'll vote for it. Same goes for Artefact which probably should just be "+1Card, +1Action, Trash a card from your hand"  on play.

Mill and Lucky coin are both no-fun cards that can wreck even your opening buys and leave you with a serious disadvantage early on. Lucky Coin is the worse.

I feel Troglodyte Cave might work better costed at 6$ with a little bonus, so gaining Duchies would be possible.

Ring Leader, if played in an engine, can wreck your next hand, leaving you with only one valuable card. I considered voting for it before, but i guess i won't.

Cards i consider voting for:
Consulate, Artefact, Troglodyte Caves, Sanctuary, Witch Doctor, Midnight Gathering, Stranger


Oh, i just see i don't have much time left :P
Better decide now...

Edit: Oh yeah, cards should fit Hinterlands... Guess that narrows my choice a bit.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 02:35:57 am by Asper »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #319 on: September 16, 2013, 11:55:11 am »
+2

I'll post the full results later today, but the winning card is Diviner, submitted by jamespotter! It got 11 votes.

Full disclosure: I cast the tiebreaking vote in this contest, rather than running another poll. This wasn't a vote in addition to my normal vote; it was just that I totaled all the other votes before casting my own.

Here is the winning card, for reference:

Quote from: jamespotter
Diviner
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.

Congratulations, jamespotter!
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #320 on: September 16, 2013, 12:02:05 pm »
0

Interesting that there was way less consensus for the Hinterlands cards. Or maybe we just had way fewer ballots submitted.

Either way, congratulations to jamespotter.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #321 on: September 16, 2013, 12:04:45 pm »
+2

Interesting that there was way less consensus for the Hinterlands cards. Or maybe we just had way fewer ballots submitted.

It was both. There were 31 ballots submitted, which isn't way fewer, but it's definitely fewer.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #322 on: September 16, 2013, 12:05:36 pm »
0

Wow, it's surprising that the card that won wasn't any of the cards that was talked about the most. I was pretty much expecting ULS to win. Congrats!
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #323 on: September 16, 2013, 12:10:38 pm »
0

Wow, it's surprising that the card that won wasn't any of the cards that was talked about the most. I was pretty much expecting ULS to win. Congrats!

I feel like the ones that generate a lot of discussion are bound to get some votes, but the fact that they are getting discussed means they have possible flaws or super interesting mechanics, whereas the card that one is rather plain but still works.

course I shouldn't talk cause I forgot to vote. now watch my card have been the tied one  ;)
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #324 on: September 16, 2013, 01:27:01 pm »
0

Hmm... I admit i would have liked a more interesting mechanic to win. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Diviner, and most of my votes had to have some things changed (including my own card), but still...

Anyhow, Diviner is a fine card, so congratulations jamespotter :)
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #325 on: September 16, 2013, 01:42:41 pm »
+1

Whew* I'm happy that the winner is at least an all around fine card. Congratulations, jamespotter! I feel a bit bad for not voting for it, but I was hesitant to vote for so many cards. Personally, my opinion on this card is pretty neutral. So much disagreement this time around.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #326 on: September 16, 2013, 02:54:19 pm »
+1

So I'm curious if people have ideas on how to make the "reaction that lets you gain a card into hand" part of Factory work cause I thought it was pretty cool when I made it

Clearly the reaction needs to leave your hand after use. Otherwise you can use it to piledrive ironworks. Set aside doesn't really work, cause when would you return it. I like topdeck better than discard because it makes it still marginally useful in your buy phase because you can save the factory for next turn. That being said, using the reaction just to save the card for the next turn is pretty weak and thus the top half clearly needs to be a gainer so that it works in games without other in-turn gainers.

The +1 action on the top half is also pretty important to the self-combo (and it needs to self combo because there aren't necessarily other gainers). Otherwise, without villages gaining an action into hand doesn't help because you don't have any actions to play the gained card with. Now having the +1 action, it needs to be harder to spam thus being a straight up workshop isn't a good choice. Which is why I wanted the discard and that lent itself perfectly with the mint style gaining. Can't let it gain victory cards though, as that is really strong in the end-game.

So yeah, this certainly isn't meant to be a "my card was perfectly thoughtout and everyone should be ashamed for not voting for it". I'm just curious what people didn't like about it. I'm also wondering what the best way to defend our cards is during the discussion session. Like, one guy said the on-play needed to be terminal but I didn't want to reply pointing out why it was non-terminal cause that would give away which card I made which I can't do.
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jamespotter

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #327 on: September 16, 2013, 03:20:25 pm »
+13

@cluckyb The bottom seemed interesting enough, I just wasn't a fan of the top, mostly because I have seen (and made) way too many "Discard a card, gain a copy" clauses on cards, and they always just end up seeming boring. I would have liked the bottom on a much weaker, cheaper card.

I am really surprised Diviner won, but I guess I  will follow SirPeebles example, though mine will probably end up a lot more boring:

Secret History of Diviner

This card started out as an on-buy attack, with the wording "When you buy this, each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the other back." I read the Secret Histories around that time, and realized that on-buy attacks usually end up being painful and unfun, and also, I had created an effect that would be really hard to balance. That got rid of the attack. Now, unfortunately, the sifting was boring, and overall too weak, so I finally came up with the idea of changing of it to the similar "When you buy a card". Thus, the bottom.

I now approached the top, knowing it had to have a +buy, and should probably be terminal, because this card can stack and become slightly obnoxious, and I didn't want it to be a "no-brainer" type of buy. I decided to go for +2 cards with the buy because it had been used less than coins, and it fit Hinterlands "Cycling" theme. I decided to cost it at $3 because on an average turn (one where you buy one thing) it is a Oracle that draws first, cycles second, and doesn't hurt anyone else, with a buy tacked on. I realize that is not its intended use, but it was certainly not a $5, and I saw no reason to prevent someone from opening double Diviner, especially since it was not strictly better than Oracle. The name was something I came up with last minute, and I am certainly open to changes.


There you have it, in case anyone was interested.  :P

EDIT: And, of course, thank you to LastFootNote for organizing and administrating this great contest.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 03:25:00 pm by jamespotter »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #328 on: September 16, 2013, 03:37:28 pm »
0

Congrats, James. Diviner was one of the cards which got my vote. I think it's an interesting mechanic, and the card is nice and simple.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #329 on: September 16, 2013, 04:47:33 pm »
0

Congrats, James. Diviner was one of the cards which got my vote. I think it's an interesting mechanic, and the card is nice and simple.

Thanks! I have noticed that simple design mechanics often get chosen over complex ones simply because they are easier to analyze and understand...I think that may be due to the sheer number of submissions for each contest. It's definitely the way my vote skews...
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #330 on: September 16, 2013, 05:32:09 pm »
0

Congrats, James. Diviner was one of the cards which got my vote. I think it's an interesting mechanic, and the card is nice and simple.

Thanks! I have noticed that simple design mechanics often get chosen over complex ones simply because they are easier to analyze and understand...I think that may be due to the sheer number of submissions for each contest. It's definitely the way my vote skews...

You are correct in this.  But I don't care and I am trying to submit weird and funky cards rather than simple ones.  They may get crazier as time goes by.

My entry this time was Pilgrimage.  As I said when the contest opened, I had trouble with Hinterlands.  I came up with something on the fly.  I didn't think too much about it until the ballot was up, and it was only then that I realized +2 Buys was too good and it stacked really powerfully.  I think it can be fixed with simple tweaks, but the card really is quite narrow and not as interesting as it seemed to me at first.  Discussion about it convinced me not to vote for my own card.  Oh well. :)
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #331 on: September 16, 2013, 05:37:11 pm »
0

I had a card submitted, but I figured it would work better in a seaside/hinterlands combined contest, and made Bargain on the fly.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #332 on: September 16, 2013, 05:48:50 pm »
+4

Secret History of Safe House

It's Tunnel, only for junking attacks rather than discard attacks. Congratulations to everyone who figured that out. Oh, that would be everyone.

And yes, it does have rather strong interactions with Peddler, Tournament and the special-card piles.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #333 on: September 16, 2013, 06:32:53 pm »
+3

Any idea when the results are going to go up, LFN?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #334 on: September 16, 2013, 07:00:50 pm »
+1

Quote
Artefact
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it, or put it on top of your deck.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it after you next shuffle your discard pile (or when the game ends).

I made Artefact and was surprised that when i playtested it once during the contest, it seemed much stronger than during my playtests before that. I'm probably changing the card to a simple cantrip with forced trashing, instead of the discard and top-deck options:

Artefact
Action, $2
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.

When you buy this, set it aside instead of gaining it. Discard it when you shuffled your discard pile the next time (or when the game ends).

Edit: Or i'll cost it at 4$, instead. Will have to see...

The wording below the line caused some discussion, and when i submitted it LastFootnote reworded it on his own, probably thinking he did the card a favour. It (mostly) has to be how it is, though, and so i asked him to change it back. For those wondering why:

  • "When you buy this" provided a nice and sometimes thematic way to get your Artefact earlier (Workshop, Stonemason, Ironworks). This way, the card also became more relevant for Hinterlands, because it got a "gain me, don't buy me" theme. Furthermore, cards like Armory would allow top-decking your Artefact if it triggered "on gain", which is a bit confusing for newer players.
  • "Instead of gaining it" is unnecessary normally because of the lose-track rule, but it makes clear Trader cannot be revealed when buying Artefact.
  • "Discard this" instead of "gain this" had some reasons, too. If it was "gain", three things would cause trouble:
    • You could reveal Trader and Watchtower to a card you bought several turns ago, or even at the end of the game (imagine a Feodum game with only one Silver in the supply as the game ends).
    • You will wonder where your Artefact is supposed to be after revealing Trader for it, and whether it will be discarded later or whether you will have to keep in mind which of your Artefacts can still be gained and which not.
    • Possession, if timed correctly, could effectively steal all your Artefacts.
    Edit: I feel "put it in your discard pile" is even better, but maybe people would argue you could put it in your freshly shuffled discard pile, then.
  • "After you next shuffle your discard pile" instead of simply "after your next shuffle" was necessary, because otherwise Inn triggers the discard and then a 2/5 opening would be much better than a 5/2 opening. Also i have no idea whether it's correct english, my original wording was "when you shuffled your discard pile the next time", which also avoided the ambiguous "after" (because, you know, six turns later is still "after"). That got lost somehow.
  • Edit: "Or when the game ends" is probably necessary, because unlike Horse Traders and such cards there's no real connection between Artefact and your deck until you put it in your discard pile.

I'm still curious whether anyone voted for it. The "gain me, don't buy me" concept seemed like my best idea for Hinterlands.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 07:36:54 am by Asper »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #335 on: September 16, 2013, 07:47:19 pm »
+7

Quote
Oicho-Kabu
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$2.

Worth 1 VP. While this is in play, when you buy a card, +$2 and discard the top card of your deck. If it's a Victory card, trash this.

This was mine (not Mine however). In retrospect, I think I may have overdone the numbers. Even though it's obviously a really simple tweak, I think a lot of people saw this and went "Terminal +$4, too strong, move on." Really, it should have been +$1, +1 buy I think, or perhaps +$1 after buying.

The thing I most love about the card is the theme. As Just a Rube pointed out, it's the name of a traditional Japanese card game. The card was originally conceived as a Highway variant that's more powerful, but comes with a risk. The risk part I knew always had to be a really big factor on the card, and I pretty quickly settled on "top deck = victory card" for a few reasons - firstly you can control the risk sometimes, giving the card a strategic element, secondly it's got generally low-medium chance of hitting, but is high over the course of a game if you use it a lot. Thirdly, it has a distinct effect during megaturns. Buy a victory card at the end? Bam, say goodbye to your Oicho-Kabu's.

I was never entirely satisfied with the card. At first it ended your buy phase if you revealed a victory card. I thought that might be a little too harsh, but in retrospect it might have worked better. The card is likely too strong currently anyway. Secondly I felt it was too easy to avoid the trigger while building an engine, so I made it a victory card worth 1 VP so if you wanted to use multiple, you better be damn careful. Weakening a card by making it worth points, now that's a trick you don't see often. It also fit thematically in two ways - firstly it fit the set by being a dual type card, and secondly now this exotic foreign game could earn you some of renown - provided you didn't lose at it and tarnish your reputation, at least. The third issue is one I only realised after it came out which is that it has slightly weird timing. You buy a card, then trigger your OKs, THEN gain the card. Notice that means you can definitely buy e.g. two Provinces before you start trashing your OKs on a megaturn. That's weird. I also would have liked the card to fail if you had NO cards in deck, i.e. negative wording - "reveal a card, if it's not a victory card +$2, otherwise trash this" but decided to simplify when I submitted. In retrospect that was a bad move. Both of these problems could have been fixed by changing the wording, and also the trigger to when you gain a card, but I missed that option when I made the card.

I'm going to guess the card didn't do that well - there were a number of issue I still needed to eke out, which collectively dragged the card down. Which is a shame - personally I like this more than my Prosperity submission (Philanthropist) which came 5th, but I reckon this will be much lower. But it was largely my own fault, I suppose.

Oh and Fragasnap, I'll claim that respect now, thank you very much.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #336 on: September 16, 2013, 08:21:37 pm »
+2

Troglodyte Caves
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded.
When you gain this, you may reveal a card from your hand costing less than this. Gain a copy of it.


This was mine (no, I won't do the same joke).
Action part and price were still the same since the beginning.
At first, I had another on-gain effect the first day. It was : "when you gain this, you may set aside an action card from your hand and then, play it during your action phase" with rules clarifications "it isn't counted as in your hand for any purpose" clause (reactions, draw until you have X cards in hand and so on...) and "it still requires an action ; at end of game, return this to your deck".
It was inspirated by "Iron Defense" from Puzzle Strike, if you know.
At first, everything I change was wording, swapping "+1 action, +1 card" written in this order, then something about whether should be cards face up or face down. Okay, face down they are, and if you don't play them to end of game, you still reveal them to show you didn't cheat.
And later the same day, I changed my on-gain effect, because I was afraid of this being too complicated.
But the action part was still the same !
And I still wonder how much votes it got, but many people seemed to like it.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #337 on: September 16, 2013, 08:57:28 pm »
+10

I created Wagon Raider.
SECRET HISTORY OF WAGON RAIDER:
I thought it up in final form while eating a grilled cheese.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #338 on: September 16, 2013, 09:15:58 pm »
+7

Mine was this:
Quote
Action    
$5    
Trash a Treasure card from your hand. Gain a Treasure card costing up to $3 more; put it into your hand.

My entry was the much-debated Used Land Salesman. As you can tell, I am rubbish at coming up with names.
I also find it quite hard to believe that it would be too strong for BM. I mean, it just can't be better than even something like courtyard or Jack for BM, and those don't totally break the game - I guess some of you might disagree - but I think it's even most often just worse than those. Like, you don't really want a free duchy in a BM deck until reasonably late. More importantly, it's even later if you aren't in a BM vs BM matchup, so while it in some ways helps BM a bit, it doesn't dissuade engines, if that makes sense. Well anyway, I am even more surprised that people thought it would win, between all the people who were confident it was broken, those who felt it was terrible, and those who just found it boring - only a couple actually said they liked it.

As for crazy effects, crazy new effects are fine and awesome, but you don't want like 4 of them slapped together randomly. A little bit at a time, and cards that have different parts which make sense together.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #339 on: September 16, 2013, 09:19:33 pm »
0

Mine was this:
Quote
Action    
$5    
Trash a Treasure card from your hand. Gain a Treasure card costing up to $3 more; put it into your hand.

My entry was the much-debated Used Land Salesman. As you can tell, I am rubbish at coming up with names.
I also find it quite hard to believe that it would be too strong for BM. I mean, it just can't be better than even something like courtyard or Jack for BM, and those don't totally break the game - I guess some of you might disagree - but I think it's even most often just worse than those. Like, you don't really want a free duchy in a BM deck until reasonably late. More importantly, it's even later if you aren't in a BM vs BM matchup, so while it in some ways helps BM a bit, it doesn't dissuade engines, if that makes sense. Well anyway, I am even more surprised that people thought it would win, between all the people who were confident it was broken, those who felt it was terrible, and those who just found it boring - only a couple actually said they liked it.

As for crazy effects, crazy new effects are fine and awesome, but you don't want like 4 of them slapped together randomly. A little bit at a time, and cards that have different parts which make sense together.

I +1 because ULS was definitely one of my favourites.  Not because of another Mine joke. ;)
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #340 on: September 16, 2013, 10:01:14 pm »
+3

Quote
Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

So, my card was Mill.  Some people said they didn't like it because DXV said he had tried on-gain discard attacks and they didn't work.  Well, in general I'm always at least a little skeptical of DXV's playtesting (how did Rebuild get through?), but even so, I think Mill is a lot less painful than the on-gain discarders that DXV tried.  The cards that DXV tried either had a much more painful on-gain attack (put a random card from your hand on top of your deck), or also attacked on play, or both.  This can attack on play if you use it to gain another Mill (or IGG or Noble Brigand), but either way it gives each other player a card first, so that's at least not quite as bad.  And if you don't use it to gain another Mill, then it's friendly rather than painful.  And if you keep using it to load up on Mills, the idea was that later on in the game, you would just end up being super-friendly to the other players to make up for how mean you were to them early on.

The biggest concern that I had with Mill was that there might be some kind of Duchy rush thing you could do by just constantly attacking early on while piledriving Mills, then piledrive Duchies and something else.  But my intuition (and I haven't playtested it, so I don't know whether this is correct) is that the benefit of card-drawing that you're giving to your opponent in that process will be plenty for them to take the lead during your Duchy piledriving phase.

People also talked about the opening "problem", which, even though I told myself I wasn't going to comment on my own cards until after the voting, I couldn't resist talking about.  Yeah, it's ugly, but it only comes up in 1/72 (or is it 1/48?) 2-player games, and still not terribly often in 3- or 4-player games.  There are a lot of painful things that can happen with bad luck in Dominion, even in the opening, like getting a Curse on your first shuffle with IGG, or Noble Brigand reducing you to a $4/$2 opening.  I don't feel like a $3/$2 opening is game-breaking, and it's pretty rare anyway.

As for the name, I was looking through a thesaurus under workshop, since that's another gainer, and then hey there's mill which makes an awesome pun on Militia.  Also a pretty generic name that sounds like something a Dominion card would be.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #341 on: September 16, 2013, 10:13:25 pm »
0

(how did Rebuild get through?)

It was the last card made. On buy discard attacks would have gotten a lot more testing, and I don't think Mill looks to fix the problems.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #342 on: September 16, 2013, 10:26:36 pm »
+1

Quote
Mill
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Each other player draws a card. Gain a card costing up to $5.

When you gain this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

So, my card was Mill.  Some people said they didn't like it because DXV said he had tried on-gain discard attacks and they didn't work.  Well, in general I'm always at least a little skeptical of DXV's playtesting (how did Rebuild get through?), but even so, I think Mill is a lot less painful than the on-gain discarders that DXV tried.  The cards that DXV tried either had a much more painful on-gain attack (put a random card from your hand on top of your deck), or also attacked on play, or both.  This can attack on play if you use it to gain another Mill (or IGG or Noble Brigand), but either way it gives each other player a card first, so that's at least not quite as bad.  And if you don't use it to gain another Mill, then it's friendly rather than painful.  And if you keep using it to load up on Mills, the idea was that later on in the game, you would just end up being super-friendly to the other players to make up for how mean you were to them early on.

The biggest concern that I had with Mill was that there might be some kind of Duchy rush thing you could do by just constantly attacking early on while piledriving Mills, then piledrive Duchies and something else.  But my intuition (and I haven't playtested it, so I don't know whether this is correct) is that the benefit of card-drawing that you're giving to your opponent in that process will be plenty for them to take the lead during your Duchy piledriving phase.

People also talked about the opening "problem", which, even though I told myself I wasn't going to comment on my own cards until after the voting, I couldn't resist talking about.  Yeah, it's ugly, but it only comes up in 1/72 (or is it 1/48?) 2-player games, and still not terribly often in 3- or 4-player games.  There are a lot of painful things that can happen with bad luck in Dominion, even in the opening, like getting a Curse on your first shuffle with IGG, or Noble Brigand reducing you to a $4/$2 opening.  I don't feel like a $3/$2 opening is game-breaking, and it's pretty rare anyway.

As for the name, I was looking through a thesaurus under workshop, since that's another gainer, and then hey there's mill which makes an awesome pun on Militia.  Also a pretty generic name that sounds like something a Dominion card would be.

Well, even if you doubt DXV's playtesting, this tidbit is not about power but about fun.  And I can imagine pretty easily how this can become really un-fun.  Granted, that also exists with official cards like Saboteur.

Anyway, in the Noble Brigand secret histories, he says this:

Quote
Maybe it's for the best that you'll never experience the joy of a when-gain discard-based attack just sitting there, promising that any hand you draw might be taken away, even if no-one has even bought the card yet.

This says nothing about the type of discard attack.  He mentions elsewhere the random-topdeck one that you talk about, but he also implies that he tried a lot of on-gain attacks.  It's pretty reasonable to assume that he tried an on-gain Militia as well as the random topdeck one.

The fact that some of these cards may have also attacked on play is not a big deal.  The pain is from the on-gain attack, not from on-play which already exists on other cards anyway.

Your concept is still pretty interesting though.  The idea of being friendly later to make up for early rudeness -- I like that.  And the name was pretty great, I have to give that to you. :)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 10:28:38 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #343 on: September 16, 2013, 10:32:39 pm »
0

Ill-Gotten Goons
$5 Action

When you buy this, all other players gain a Curse and discard down to three cards.  +1 VP, and you may gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #344 on: September 16, 2013, 10:37:08 pm »
0

I made Sanctuary. I think on-gain Island is actually pretty powerful, but I went way overboard in trying to balance it.

The issue is that it
1. Probably shouldn't be easy to open T1/T2, because that's similar to old Hovel.
2. Probably shouldn't be an easy buy, in that there needs to be tension in whether you want another Sanctuary or not.

So I tried to resolve it by making it terminal + non-hand size increasing, when I really only needed one or the other. If it was terminal draw, maybe it'd be too good in engines, but it'd be more interesting.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #345 on: September 17, 2013, 12:39:43 am »
0

I made Fence (which LastFootnote named, btw), it originally was just thinking of how to make gaining a card costing $1 more would work.  If I were to remake it now, it would either cost $4 or have +1 Buy +$1.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #346 on: September 17, 2013, 08:30:29 am »
+4

Mine was this one:
Quote
Mountain Dwellers
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal your hand. If you revealed 3 or more Treasure cards, +$1.

When you buy this, you may trash a Treasure card you have in play. Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more than it.
Okay, this is actually Mountain Dwellers, but it's based on Mine. It's also mine. I was going to wait for the results before talking about it, but who knows when they'll be released.

Do we have a Secret History of Mountain Dwellers?
Not too much to say here. I didn't want to make another treasure flooder (we Had Trader and Cache already), but an on-gain Mine effect seemed like a cool idea. Engines aren't as averse to the Mine effect as they are to the treasure gainer effect, so perhaps it could have made everyone happy. I wanted the top part to at least be a cantrip, so that you wouldn't be afraid to get multiples of these. It needed a bit more than that, but a simple $1 coin would be too strong. I figured I can make the coin conditional so as to favour large handsizes and sifting. It made sense to me to have it activate with treasure in your hand, since you probably have treasure in your deck if you bought this in the first place.

My mistake was making it activate a 3 treasures in hand. That's overkill. Activating at 2 treasures would have been enough to drive home the point that it wants you to have at least some treasures in your deck, but even 1 treasure can possibly work.

Balance wise, I made it on-buy because I was worried it would be too strong with Border Village and Haggler, let alone if it could Mine cards from your hand when gained. I knew it had to at least be able to work on treasures in play for it not to suck. I liked that it was an early game accelerator, turning a copper into a silver before the first reshuffle, just like IGG can give a curse before the first reshuffle. Mining a Silver into a Gold is neat. Perhaps the best use of this card is to provide fodder for TfB.

This card had a relatively easy design stage compared to the card I'm preparing for Intrigue. You'd think all that work would make my Intrigue card better, but at this rate it's looking like it will be one of the weirdest Intrigue submissions.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #347 on: September 17, 2013, 10:09:57 am »
+4

This was my card.

Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4. Otherwise, +$1 and gain a Victory card costing up to $4. Put the gained card into your hand.
When you buy this, gain an Action card costing up to $4, putting it onto your deck.

The secret history of this card.  The card's idea was conceived as a card that would have a fun interaction with Tunnel, my favorite Hinterlands card.  And, that is probably where the opposition to the card began.  So, I designed a card that could gain Tunnel to hand, and then discard it if you happened to have another one of these to play.  How to do that?  Well, make it Oasis with a gain that depends on the discard.  I guess that's complicated, or has a lot going on, or so people say.  Anyway, the Victory-Curse discard started Silver, and the non Victory-Curse discard started with cost up to $4.  That didn't feel parallel enough -- so I made both $4. 

Then, I thought... this card is too SIMPLE, too vanilla... not enough going on for my taste.  What can I do to make it even more Hinterlandsy?  Well, I can break it by giving it an on-gain autopile problem below the line.  OK.  That works, and the card is what it came to be.  Actually, the idea was to allow the card to gain all types of cards, so it was thematic, but as others have pointed out, gaining actions atop your deck is after something else entirely than the top part of the card (which is a nice sifty-gainy mix by itself).  Even after fixing the autopile issue (and then unfixing it myself in a comment), the card had complexity issues.

So, what would the card be if I could rewrite it?

Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back on top in any order.

OK, that's not mine (or my card), but in all honestly, congrats jamespotter.  Simplicity won the day... today.

In all seriousness, I still like my card, and I appreciate the genuine criticism that others have given it.  Here's how I would change my card based on the feedback.

Quote
Barn
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Discard a card. If you discarded a Victory or Curse card, gain a Treasure costing up to $4 to your hand. Otherwise, gain a Victory card costing up to $4 to your hand.

Back to the drawing board.  I'm dreaming up my next broken trainwreck right now....
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #348 on: September 18, 2013, 08:10:49 am »
0

Shaman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card with that name. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain this, each other player discards any number of cards from his hand then draws a card per card discarded.

This was my card, if you couldn't tell. I'll make sure not to promote my own card next time as much. :)
I wasn't very interested in on-buy or on-gain effects, so I decided to work more on the filtering aspect of Hinterlands. After brainstorming a bit, I realized I'd made a card that could do that amazingly, which I had called Magician. The main idea of it is that you can get to your good actions easily despite perhaps having a bloated deck. I was worried the opportunity cost of getting it rather than a power-5 was too big, so I dropped it to 4. The deadline was getting closer, and then I figured out it would be way too powerful like that with no drawback, so added on an on-buy nerf and submitted. From the comments it seems it would still be too powerful, and I thought of another way to phrase it that would be much more elegant, so here's what I would have submitted. I'm still surprised that most people didn't like the idea, which I think is a niche just begging to be filled, and even though I knew it was hard to balance, it still deserves a card.

Shaman
Action - $5
Discard your deck. Play a card from your discard pile.

is what I would have it at now.

Any reasons it wasn't liked? I was really hoping this one would do well.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #349 on: September 18, 2013, 08:18:30 am »
+3

Shaman
Action - $5
Discard your deck. Play a card from your discard pile.

is what I would have it at now.

Any reasons it wasn't liked? I was really hoping this one would do well.

It is a card idea has been discussed many times on this forum, and is usually referred to as Demonic Tutor after a similar card from Magic.  It just enables some really ridiculous combos.  Scavenger is the official card which has tread a bit on this design space.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 10:15:19 am by SirPeebles »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #350 on: September 18, 2013, 11:08:41 am »
0

Then would it work at $6 and with the gain penalty? That's pretty high opportunity cost, and the combo-enabling is the cool part about it.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #351 on: September 18, 2013, 11:41:20 am »
0

Shaman
Action - $5
Discard your deck. Play a card from your discard pile.

is what I would have it at now.

Any reasons it wasn't liked? I was really hoping this one would do well.

It is a card idea has been discussed many times on this forum, and is usually referred to as Demonic Tutor after a similar card from Magic.  It just enables some really ridiculous combos.  Scavenger is the official card which has tread a bit on this design space.
If a Demonic Tutor (what I tend to call Broken Herald because I never played Magic:tG) belongs anywhere, it would be Alchemy. Thing is, Alchemy already has Golem. I`m guessing that a non-broken version of such a card would end up looking too much like Golem, with its prohibitive cost and lack of vanilla bonuses.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #352 on: September 18, 2013, 12:00:38 pm »
0

The thing is: it only gets you half as many actions as Golem, but lets you choose, and it helps with deck sifting. If you have it, you want a few key actions in as big a deck as you want, which is Hinterlands's theme or one particular combo, not lots and lots of them like you want with alchemy.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #353 on: September 18, 2013, 12:27:10 pm »
0

The thing is: it only gets you half as many actions as Golem, but lets you choose, and it helps with deck sifting. If you have it, you want a few key actions in as big a deck as you want, which is Hinterlands's theme or one particular combo, not lots and lots of them like you want with alchemy.
In my mind, seeing your key actions very often is still playing lots of actions, especially if the card you fish out helps you play your other actions (for example, a key village/throne room or a powerful draw card). It also seems like a broken-looking-but-actually-balanced ability, which I associate with Alchemy.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #354 on: September 18, 2013, 12:32:15 pm »
0

The thing is: it only gets you half as many actions as Golem, but lets you choose, and it helps with deck sifting. If you have it, you want a few key actions in as big a deck as you want, which is Hinterlands's theme or one particular combo, not lots and lots of them like you want with alchemy.

If you use King's Court, you can find 3 cards.  Name KC, KC and another copy of this.  Now you can put together pretty much any super power combo in the game with incredible ease.  Find-any-action is pretty easy to abuse.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #355 on: September 18, 2013, 05:32:04 pm »
0

Ultimatum to Lastfootnote : if you don't give the results, I put back my green arrow for the message "RESERVED FOR RESULTS". Deadline... let's say in 48 hours ?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #356 on: September 18, 2013, 05:39:29 pm »
0

Ultimatum to Lastfootnote : if you don't give the results, I put back my green arrow for the message "RESERVED FOR RESULTS". Deadline... let's say in 48 hours ?

Luckily for both of us, I finally have some time. Results soonish.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #357 on: September 18, 2013, 06:16:43 pm »
+6

Results are up! Sorry for the loooooooooong wait!
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #358 on: September 18, 2013, 06:50:43 pm »
+2

Ugh...I just KNEW my card was one of the cards tied for first! No hard feelings, LastFootnote.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #359 on: September 18, 2013, 07:05:21 pm »
+2

Ugh...I just KNEW my card was one of the cards tied for first! No hard feelings, LastFootnote.

I'm wishing I voted, too, I loved Mountain Dwellers but I feel Diviner is ridiculously overpowered.

I give jet lag as an excuse.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #360 on: September 18, 2013, 07:39:32 pm »
0

Ugh...I just KNEW my card was one of the cards tied for first! No hard feelings, LastFootnote.

I'm wishing I voted, too, I loved Mountain Dwellers but I feel Diviner is ridiculously overpowered.

I give jet lag as an excuse.
That's too bad. I was counting on your vote. No matter, I'll have other chances.

So yeah, the consensus was really low this time.

EDIT: Oh yeah, so it was you who made Courier(B). I liked that one, and even voted for it. Unfortunately, it had a hard time competing with the much less subtle cards in the ballot.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 07:50:18 pm by markusin »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #361 on: September 18, 2013, 07:43:55 pm »
+1

Ugh...I just KNEW my card was one of the cards tied for first! No hard feelings, LastFootnote.

I'm wishing I voted, too, I loved Mountain Dwellers but I feel Diviner is ridiculously overpowered.

I give jet lag as an excuse.

If it seems overpowered, it can be tweaked. Power isn't too huge an issue, the idea is interesting.

As it turns out I voted for all the top three, and neither of the two after that.
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But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #362 on: September 18, 2013, 08:07:59 pm »
0

I voted for 4 of the top 5. I'm happy with that!
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #363 on: September 18, 2013, 08:10:30 pm »
+3

It's interesting that two of the most debated cards were submitted by WanderingWinder (Used Land Salesman) and -Stef- (Hinterland).
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #364 on: September 18, 2013, 08:12:00 pm »
0

It's interesting that two of the most debated cards were submitted by WanderingWinder (Used Land Salesman) and -Stef- (Hinterland).
I also noticed that. Where is -Stef- to comment anyway?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #365 on: September 18, 2013, 08:15:00 pm »
0

I wonder if -Stef-'s name influenced LastFootnote's interest in the card.  It certainly makes me give the strategic implications a second thought.  I'm not seeing it, but maybe it is obvious to -Stef-.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #366 on: September 18, 2013, 08:34:26 pm »
+1

I wonder if -Stef-'s name influenced LastFootnote's interest in the card.

It's impossible for me to give a 100% objective answer to this, but I doubt it. In my experience, skill at playing Dominion does not directly correlate to making good Dominion cards. I'm not in love with most of WanderingWinder's cards, for instance (Nothing personal, WW).

The reason I like it so much is that it's got a very unique, yet elegant and compelling mechanic.

It certainly makes me give the strategic implications a second thought.  I'm not seeing it, but maybe it is obvious to -Stef-.

I wouldn't read too much into it. According to -Stef-, this is his first fan card. I messaged him back, asking if he wanted to at least add +1 Action to it. He said had considered both that and allowing you to gain another Silver onto the mat when played (instead of swapping). He was afraid that those would make the card too powerful. That's a common mistake among new fan card developers: erring on the side of cards that are too weak. I've certainly done my share of that.

EDIT: I thought the same thing, by the way: that there might be something I was missing about the card. That's why I contacted -Stef- about it. It's possible that there's something we're both missing.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 08:37:53 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #367 on: September 18, 2013, 08:44:47 pm »
0

Quote from: Archetype
Sawmill
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. +1 Buy.

When you gain this, set it aside onto your Sawmill mat. At the start of each of your turns, you may put any number of cards from your mat into your hand.
Well, here's Sawmill. Probably should've cost $2, but I've tested it out at $3 and it works fine. Fun little niche card. Could probably be less game specific if it had +1 Card, but I like it how it is. I also don't use a mat IRL, I just set them aside. But I was afraid that people wouldn't like just setting them aside so I added the mat thing. Turns out some people didn't like it because it had a mat, so go figure.
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jamespotter

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #368 on: September 18, 2013, 09:24:24 pm »
+1

I'm wishing I voted, too, I loved Mountain Dwellers but I feel Diviner is ridiculously overpowered.

I give jet lag as an excuse.

I'm genuinely curious as to why you (and others) feel it is so drastically overpowered. Could someone please explain, because I feel it is very similar in power to Oracle.
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Tables

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #369 on: September 18, 2013, 09:26:39 pm »
0

Personally, I think +2 cards, +1 buy is pretty similar to +$2, +1 buy, and this has a powerful extra effect on top. I think if you removed the +buy it would be similar to Oracle. That's actually where I would start with balancing, is removing that.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #370 on: September 18, 2013, 09:31:13 pm »
+1

Personally, I think +2 cards, +1 buy is pretty similar to +$2, +1 buy, and this has a powerful extra effect on top. I think if you removed the +buy it would be similar to Oracle. That's actually where I would start with balancing, is removing that.
The problem is, filtering cards right before you draw them is typically a bit better than filtering cards for what must be (barring black market) the next turn. And you don't get the attack. Okay, you get +buy and the filtering is better (though it stacks worse); overall, I think it compares pretty nicely to oracle, but I would start where it is (it's not like oracle is the greatest card ever) or possibly bumping it up to 4, which is where I expect it would end up.

jamespotter

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #371 on: September 18, 2013, 09:31:51 pm »
0

I wonder if -Stef-'s name influenced LastFootnote's interest in the card.

It's impossible for me to give a 100% objective answer to this, but I doubt it. In my experience, skill at playing Dominion does not directly correlate to making good Dominion cards. I'm not in love with most of WanderingWinder's cards, for instance (Nothing personal, WW).

I completely agree that skill at Dominion has almost no correlation to skill at designing cards. I am actually really mediocre at Dominion, and my cards have always done well in these contests. I think there is a definite difference between being good at strategic theory and being good at strategic implementation.

@Tables- My thinking had been that the buy was important to the card cohesion, so perhaps a cost increase or change in effect is more natural? I understand the OP idea now, though, so thanks for clarifying  :)

EDIT:semi-ninja'd by WW
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 09:33:15 pm by jamespotter »
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Powerman

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #372 on: September 18, 2013, 10:57:04 pm »
0

Quote from: Powerman
Ring Leader
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.
When you buy or play this, each player (including you) reveals the top 4 card of his deck, discards one that you choose, and puts the rest back in an order he chooses.

Well, this was my card.  As WW pointed out, at $3 this is almost certainly too strong.  I do really like the mechanic however, so which of the following would keep the "feel" of the card while making it less OP.

A) Raising the price to $4 or $5
B) Eliminating the +2 Cards
C) Reducing the card space to 3 cards
D) Other (please specify!)

Thanks!
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #373 on: September 18, 2013, 11:08:57 pm »
+3

Definitely reduce to 3 cards.  I'm still worried that this is too annoying to play against, but I like the idea too.  Not sure if anything else needs to be done.  With +2 Cards, maybe raise the price.
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dnkywin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #374 on: September 18, 2013, 11:52:30 pm »
0

Quote from: dnkywin
Smelter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck.

Eh, so I designed Smelter (the name was arbitrary). I wanted to do something with gaining silver on top of deck on buy, and thus I just stuck the +1$ and the +1 Buy on (to encourage more topdecking). It used to be +$2, +1 Buy for $5 cost but I decided that there were already enough woodcutters in Hinterlands. It definitely is a money card, but I don't think it's a game-warper like Jack is.

I'm not so sure about always wanting to buy copper to get a topdecked silver - it does contributes towards $1.5 average but it also decreases variance as well as delaying those key golds.

Eh, I'm just glad that this didn't lose by one vote (since I didn't vote  :P)
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RobertJ

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #375 on: September 19, 2013, 08:17:55 am »
+1

Chapterhouse
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. +$1. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Discard 2 cards.

When you buy this, each other player draws a card. When you gain this, each other player with at least 4 cards in hand discards a card.

My card, chapterhouse, got a bit of discussion and moderate success. In case anyone cares here is its Secret History.

I like cards that give a positive benefit to opponents but there aren't many which do this kind of thing on buy/gain (only Embassy?). The first thought was allowing opponents to trash something when you gain the card, but filtering seemed more in the spirit of Hinterlands. Having thought of that, splitting the draw+discard of filtering to correspond to the buy+gain of buying is a natural thing to do and gives an interesting effect when the card is gained in other ways. Possibly in retrospect separating the on buy and on gain is both confusing and makes the card hard to balance. I should probably have left it as an on gain filter one card for opponents. Now, what top works with that bottom? It needs to be strong so that you would be happy to get it despite the opponents filtering, but not super strong because of the potential on gain attack. The first thoughts were something like: Warehouse with +$1, +1 Buy, or Filter 2 cards with +$2. I'd like the on buy/gain effect to happen several times per game so I'd also like the card to stack a bit better that these (incidentally I certainly want it to be non-terminal because of this). A filtering card which maintains hand size (eg +2 Cards, +$1, Discard 1 Card) looks too strong, but the "draw up to x, discard y" idea keeps some of this hand size maintaining feel in a more manageable way and would work better in multiples than say warehouse variants. An extra feature is that the card can counter discard attacks, in particular its own on gain attack. The name is supposed to have a communal feel to it (matching the opponents benefit), also an ecclesiastical one because trashers often do and I thought of it at the same time as the opponent may trash on gain benefit. I'm rubbish at thinking of good card names and didn't have the imagination to come up with anything better as the card evolved.

Anyway thanks to everyone who commented on or voted for the card. Happy to hear other comments.

Looking forward to reading all the dark age submissions. So far I've got two ideas; one which is probably unworkable, and one which doesn't feel quite Dark Agey enough!
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #376 on: September 19, 2013, 09:06:06 am »
0

I'm wishing I voted, too, I loved Mountain Dwellers but I feel Diviner is ridiculously overpowered.

I give jet lag as an excuse.

I'm genuinely curious as to why you (and others) feel it is so drastically overpowered. Could someone please explain, because I feel it is very similar in power to Oracle.

As I mentioned in my critique way back on page 6 or 7, the top is worth $3 all by itself.  In a thinned deck, that +1 Buy makes it very powerful if you're likely to draw $3 or $4.  The bottom part, though, is just so, so powerful, not because of the similarity to Oracle, but because it's repeatable, can happen multiple times on the same buy if there are multiples in play (with villages available), and self-synergizes with its own +Buy.  This feels to me like a $5 card.

This isn't a "being too powerful" issue, but like Oracle this card suffers from what I'll call the T4 problem:  it is much, much better to draw this on T3 than T4 if you open Diviner/Silver.  Draw this on T3, hopefully get a $5, discard your top two cards, and you have a (small) chance to draw your $5 or your Diviner on T4.  Draw it on T4, and not only will your $5 miss the shuffle, Diviner will miss the shuffle.  With Oracle that problem is mitigated by the attack.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #377 on: September 19, 2013, 08:40:55 pm »
0

Quote
Wayfarer (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one costing $1 or more. Put all the revealed cards into your hand.
When you discard this from play, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper you have in play.

My card was Wayfarer B, which was posted a bit late due to a mixup. It started out as an alchemy card that was just the top, gave +1 action, and cost 0P, which meant it wouldn't stop for copies of itself. I decided that was too similar to scrying pool and probably too good, and then when I was working on the Hinterlands contest I thought, what if you had a card that revealed cards and then gained you a card based on how many your revealed? I worked on the idea and decided to delay the gain effect and change it to how many coppers you ended up with total, and there you have it.

Out of curiosity, did people not vote for it because they didn't like it or because it was posted late and they didn't know it existed? I'm rather fond of the card and would consider re-entering it for the second Hinterlands contest with maybe some tweaking.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #378 on: September 20, 2013, 12:25:33 am »
0


Quote
Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.
Since the card got an understandable amount of mockery for being a workshop-scout (which it is), I figured I might as well explain the thought process behind it (which actually was more than "let's paste 2 cards together").

My second attempt to create an on-gain Scout. My first attempt, which was posted on these forums, had a Woodcutter top; I figured that was too similar to Nomad Camp for a Hinterlands card. I really like the effect when you open with it (improving your opening split at the cost of adding a Workshop your deck; I was disappointed that no one else made the Nomad Camp connection), and late-game during the greening stage it lets you improve your next hand (and can even gain itself with the effect to avoid spending a buy). As I mentioned, I came up with the bottom first, and then needed a top-half. It had to be something that you might want early on (so the opening would be more than just a cute trick), that retained some utility through the mid-game (so you hadn't just clogged up your deck with an entirely useless card), while still being cheap enough to be opened with and readily obtainable during the greening stage. A Workshop effect seemed like a good fit for these, and also guaranteed that someone wanting to use it's scout effect during the greening phase wouldn't have to waste money and a buy to do so. Plus it gave an obvious synergy with rushes.

Sadly, taking two boring effects and combining them still leads to a boring card. The glut of Workshop variants this time around didn't help either. I'm still trying to make the on-gain scout idea work, but this card doesn't seem the right way to go about it. Tricky.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #379 on: September 20, 2013, 01:04:41 am »
0


Quote
Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.
Since the card got an understandable amount of mockery for being a workshop-scout (which it is), I figured I might as well explain the thought process behind it (which actually was more than "let's paste 2 cards together").

My second attempt to create an on-gain Scout. My first attempt, which was posted on these forums, had a Woodcutter top; I figured that was too similar to Nomad Camp for a Hinterlands card. I really like the effect when you open with it (improving your opening split at the cost of adding a Workshop your deck; I was disappointed that no one else made the Nomad Camp connection), and late-game during the greening stage it lets you improve your next hand (and can even gain itself with the effect to avoid spending a buy). As I mentioned, I came up with the bottom first, and then needed a top-half. It had to be something that you might want early on (so the opening would be more than just a cute trick), that retained some utility through the mid-game (so you hadn't just clogged up your deck with an entirely useless card), while still being cheap enough to be opened with and readily obtainable during the greening stage. A Workshop effect seemed like a good fit for these, and also guaranteed that someone wanting to use it's scout effect during the greening phase wouldn't have to waste money and a buy to do so. Plus it gave an obvious synergy with rushes.

Sadly, taking two boring effects and combining them still leads to a boring card. The glut of Workshop variants this time around didn't help either. I'm still trying to make the on-gain scout idea work, but this card doesn't seem the right way to go about it. Tricky.

I used to have a pseudo on-gain Scout in my Enterprise expansion.

Quote
Aqueduct
Types: Victory
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this, reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Actions and Treasures back in any order and discard the rest.

It was fine, but not terribly exciting. I eventually replaced it with a similar, but more useful and compelling card.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #380 on: September 20, 2013, 12:50:03 pm »
+2

I voted for none of the top 3.

Tribe was my submission:
Quote
Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +$1. Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Discard one and put the other anywhere in your deck.
When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$2.
I know that on-buy +Buy aren't terribly popular, but I thought this was a rather elegant solution to a lot of the problems that on-buy +Buy cards have and it's an obvious on-buy effect that Hinterlands doesn't have.
See: Being able to empty a pile when you drive its cost down to $0 is no fun, so it needs to be capped some way. One could simply say: "When you buy this, if it's the first [CARDNAME] you've bought this turn, +1 Buy," but that somehow seems to require more parsing than a simple discard. Tribe has an obvious cap to it: The number of cards in your hand. Players will never really ask or consider why, they'll just accept that they get buys if they have cards to discard.

It started with its on-buy effect giving two Buys, but otherwise being the same (It lost the second buy in testing with Highway). Then it needed a top effect. It either needed to give +Buy or +Actions (both of which Hinterlands needed). I figured an engine piece would be a nice component to be able to buy without expending buys, so +2 Actions it was. Since I set it up to give coins when you bought it, it made more sense for it to give coins when you played it so I could put it at a cost of $3 (rather than with +1 Card which would make it strictly better than Village).
I had to give it some other effect, so I started trying to think up a name: A gathering of people (for the splitter effect) with an emphasis of either a market (for the +Buy) or a celebratory event (such as Festival). Tribe seemed to make a lot of sense: The tribe has a big hoopla when you buy them if you bring gifts and give you actions and coins later. From there, a Tribe sounds somewhat like Native Village, so its extra effect needed to be a way to get cards in your deck to collide (which is great for Hinterlands). It started out top-decking one card and putting the other anywhere, but that was annoying, so I made it discard the other and, in retrospect, that's too strong for $3.
Making it give coins with its on-buy seemed cute. When it gave $2, you could buy 2 of them for $4 with an extra card in hand. Clearly too much. Dropping that down to $1 would probably have fixed that problem. Having it net you coins when you drop its price to $0 I thought was a nice combo. With it giving only $1, it could transform your useless cards into +$1 when you nullify its price.
So here's what it would change to:
Quote
Tribe
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +2 Actions. +$1. Put a card from your hand anywhere in your deck.
When you buy this, you may discard a card. If you do, +1 Buy and +$1.
That's enough of my card though.

Oh and Fragasnap, I'll claim that respect now, thank you very much.
I am nothing if not truthful. +1.
I ended up not voting for your card only because the number of Victory cards allowed in the set is limited.

I wanted the top part to at least be a cantrip, so that you wouldn't be afraid to get multiples of these. It needed a bit more than that, but a simple $1 coin would be too strong. I figured I can make the coin conditional so as to favour large handsizes and sifting.
I don't think a simple $1 would be too strong (Peddlers at $5 are moderately weak but infinitely practical), but a flat +$1 would have made it into nothing more than a Peddler on play, for which I also would not have voted favorably.

I'm wishing I voted, too, I loved Mountain Dwellers but I feel Diviner is ridiculously overpowered.

I give jet lag as an excuse.

I'm genuinely curious as to why you (and others) feel it is so drastically overpowered. Could someone please explain, because I feel it is very similar in power to Oracle.

As I mentioned in my critique way back on page 6 or 7, the top is worth $3 all by itself.  In a thinned deck, that +1 Buy makes it very powerful if you're likely to draw $3 or $4.  The bottom part, though, is just so, so powerful, not because of the similarity to Oracle, but because it's repeatable, can happen multiple times on the same buy if there are multiples in play (with villages available), and self-synergizes with its own +Buy.  This feels to me like a $5 card.

This isn't a "being too powerful" issue, but like Oracle this card suffers from what I'll call the T4 problem:  it is much, much better to draw this on T3 than T4 if you open Diviner/Silver.  Draw this on T3, hopefully get a $5, discard your top two cards, and you have a (small) chance to draw your $5 or your Diviner on T4.  Draw it on T4, and not only will your $5 miss the shuffle, Diviner will miss the shuffle.  With Oracle that problem is mitigated by the attack.
The Turn 4 problem is quite prominant with Smithy as well, isn't it?
The fact that it synergizes with its own +Buy is largely moot because you have to be buying cards in order to use it. If I have $5 and 2 Buys, I often will want a $5 card anyway. Flooding my deck with Coppers only to use a sifting effect would be poor long-term planning.

Quote
Wayfarer (B)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one costing $1 or more. Put all the revealed cards into your hand.
When you discard this from play, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper you have in play.
...
Out of curiosity, did people not vote for it because they didn't like it or because it was posted late and they didn't know it existed? I'm rather fond of the card and would consider re-entering it for the second Hinterlands contest with maybe some tweaking.
I don't like it much for how variable it is. Sometimes I'll only draw my Mountebank dead (+1 Card) or I'll get 4 Coppers, 2 Curses, and a Silver (+7 Cards). Then I get to use all my Coppers twice which can get pretty silly. LastFootnote has a great Workshop\Village in his Enterprise expansion called Mill Town and using all your Coppers more than once is a strong effect on boards in which you can draw your deck. Though this one is terminal, it lets you wait until the end of your turn to use those Coppers.

Quote
Trailblazer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you gain this, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put any number of the revealed Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the other cards back in any order.
...
Sadly, taking two boring effects and combining them still leads to a boring card. The glut of Workshop variants this time around didn't help either. I'm still trying to make the on-gain scout idea work, but this card doesn't seem the right way to go about it.
You hit the nail on the head: I like the idea, but it's overall rather boring and I voted for interesting ideas. Armory is one of my most loathed Dominion cards, not because its impractical, but because it's so boring.
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #381 on: September 20, 2013, 01:09:02 pm »
0

I wanted the top part to at least be a cantrip, so that you wouldn't be afraid to get multiples of these. It needed a bit more than that, but a simple $1 coin would be too strong. I figured I can make the coin conditional so as to favour large handsizes and sifting.
I don't think a simple $1 would be too strong (Peddlers at $5 are moderately weak but infinitely practical), but a flat +$1 would have made it into nothing more than a Peddler on play, for which I also would not have voted favorably.
But, when you consider that mining a Copper into a Silver increases the net coin in your deck by 1 without adding any additional bloat, it's as if you're buying 2 Peddlers for 5, at least early, except 1 of them can only draw treasure and is tied to the mined treasure card. I think the on-play has to be pretty weak to make that work. It also has to cost 5, otherwise a Mountain Dwellers/Silver opening eclipses a Silver/Silver opening.

I only playtested it after submitting it. What would really make this better is to make the effect on-gain and give it the ability to mine cards in hand as well, but with the mined card being discarded. I don't feel much like resubmitting the card for the next challenge without popular demand, though.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #2: Hinterlands
« Reply #382 on: September 20, 2013, 03:00:05 pm »
+3

I'm wishing I voted, too, I loved Mountain Dwellers but I feel Diviner is ridiculously overpowered.

I give jet lag as an excuse.

I'm genuinely curious as to why you (and others) feel it is so drastically overpowered. Could someone please explain, because I feel it is very similar in power to Oracle.

As I mentioned in my critique way back on page 6 or 7, the top is worth $3 all by itself.  In a thinned deck, that +1 Buy makes it very powerful if you're likely to draw $3 or $4.  The bottom part, though, is just so, so powerful, not because of the similarity to Oracle, but because it's repeatable, can happen multiple times on the same buy if there are multiples in play (with villages available), and self-synergizes with its own +Buy.  This feels to me like a $5 card.

This isn't a "being too powerful" issue, but like Oracle this card suffers from what I'll call the T4 problem:  it is much, much better to draw this on T3 than T4 if you open Diviner/Silver.  Draw this on T3, hopefully get a $5, discard your top two cards, and you have a (small) chance to draw your $5 or your Diviner on T4.  Draw it on T4, and not only will your $5 miss the shuffle, Diviner will miss the shuffle.  With Oracle that problem is mitigated by the attack.

I don't it's too powerful.  Consider:

+2 Cards alone is not even worth $2, let alone $3.  Moat gets a pretty strong reaction attached to it and it's still $2.  I contend that +1 Buy is not a strong enough effect to make it worth $3.

Also consider that Market Square is cantrip +Buy for $3, and it's still weak enough that a decent reaction is attached to it.  For lots of bonuses (including +Buy), I think cantrip is better than terminal +2 Cards.

On Diviner specifically -- yes the effect can stack, but now you have multiple terminal +2 Cards in your deck, and that's generally not very good.  If you're going to invest in villages to support it, you'd rather be playing much stronger terminals than this.  The sifting is still contingent on a Buy, and you're not going to be making use of your +Buys unless you also have economy from somewhere else, because Diviner certainly isn't giving you any.  If you manage to pull together an engine that stacks multiples of these and can still buy multiple useful cards... well, I think you deserve some good sifting then.  Except, of course, most of your engine pieces will be in play anyway so is that sifting really doing that much for you?

There's no way that Diviner is powerful enough to be a $5 card.  $4, maybe, but $3 is probably fine.  I doubt I'd want to open two of these.


I used the same vanilla bonuses on Landfall (code name: Euchre), my submission to the MSDC #18 (Reaction Cards).  Everyone who commented agreed that it's really weak. 

As an aside, looking back on those comments, it's surprising that most of them were basically, "not exciting" even though it tied for first in the end.  Maybe it was because it was "safer" than other cards?  I'm submitting crazy cards this time around though. :P  Or possibly it's because the set desperately wanted a +Buy.  Also likely that voters liked it enough but didn't comment, which is a shame.  Analysing and commenting on fan cards really helps you improve your own design process, I think.
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