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werothegreat

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Guilds Strategy
« on: September 02, 2013, 02:15:53 pm »
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You may have noticed I haven't posted in a while - well, I'm back.  Let's discuss Guilds!

-Stonemason/Border Village is probably my favorite thing ever right now, particularly paired with Journeyman.  Overpaying $6 on Stonemason nets you two Border Villages (along with two extra things), and in the late game, SM can crack open BVs into two Duchies.  Awesome!

-Advisor requires a very homogeneous deck.  Lots of Silver, lots of Advisors.  Or transition into the SM/BV/JM deck, using SM to turn Advisors into Silvers or cheap Actions.

-Has anyone gotten comfortable with using Coin tokens yet?  I still haven't figured out when to hoard them and when to spend like crazy.  I do like what they add to strategy, though.

-Post your own thoughts!
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Awaclus

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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2013, 02:27:55 pm »
+1

You should hoard coin tokens when you have an engine that plays a lot of coin token producers every turn and lots of buys (Scrying Pool + Candlestick Maker is a great example), but usually you should just spend them whenever spending it helps you over the $4-$5 threshold or another important threshold, and as soon as possible.

In the end game you usually want to spend more tokens than you normally would for obvious reasons, such as spending 4 tokens to go from $4 to $8, but this should be relatively easy to figure out.

I wouldn't claim that I'm totally comfortable with coin tokens on every board, but I'm pretty comfortable with them in Base+Guilds games since I don't own any other expansions on Goko.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 02:31:41 pm by Awaclus »
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jaybeez

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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2013, 07:23:00 pm »
+1

Advisor requires a very homogeneous deck.  Lots of Silver, lots of Advisors.  Or transition into the SM/BV/JM deck, using SM to turn Advisors into Silvers or cheap Actions.
It works with a homogeneous deck, but it also works with a very well-trimmed deck, which can be heterogeneous too.
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Titandrake

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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2013, 07:56:18 pm »
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Advisor is good when you want more cards in hand and don't particularly care what cards those are. So, you don't use Advisor as a main +Cards source. It's a supplement to a more traditional engine deck.

Edit: Every time I've tried saving coin tokens, it's ended badly. Most of the time you want to spend it early on a card you want but can't quite get.

Edit 2: Stonemason/Soothsayer is a pretty fun interaction. Use Soothsayer to gain lots of Golds and hand out Curses, and then Stonemason gives you a surprising amount of control during the endgame. Trashing Gold for 2 Duchies is always fun, but it also lets you trash errant Curses and can be emptied very quickly if you overpay Stonemason by $2.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 07:58:53 pm by Titandrake »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2013, 08:20:57 pm »
+1

One fairly new experience I've had with Guilds cards is the concept of a entire "setup" turn. Usually this involves Taxman and Coin token producers like Candlestick Maker and Baker. Often enough I'll play some cards that get Coin tokens, then trash a Silver (or something) with Taxman, resulting in a $0 or $1 hand. I could play a few Coin tokens and buy a $3 card, but often I just save them and buy nothing.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2013, 08:42:06 pm »
+2

Every time I've tried saving coin tokens, it's ended badly. Most of the time you want to spend it early on a card you want but can't quite get.
Here is my take on coin tokens:

In general in Dominion, you want to be building up your deck (duh), and the faster you get good cards, the faster you'll get good cards.  That sounded like a tautology, but what I mean is that getting good cards sooner will make your deck stronger sooner so that you can more easily pick up more good cards.  So the natural thought it "Why would I save coin tokens?  If I spend them sooner, I accelerate faster."  I think there are two main reasons that saving coin tokens can be a good thing:

1. The obvious and more common reason for saving coin tokens is because you hit say $3, and you don't particularly care for any of the $4's, so you don't gain much utility by spending the token now.  In the extreme case maybe there are no $4 cards on the board, in which case it's a trivial decision to hang onto the token for later.  In other words, they help smooth out buys.

2. The less obvious thing that saving coin tokens can do is they can postpone your greening.  Dominion feels like a positive feedback game for a while, but when you need to start buying victory cards, it becomes a negative feedback game.  In general, negative feedback means you want to not be winning for as long as possible, except at the end of the game when you want to win.  If you could have your way, you'd prefer to never buy a green card until the game is over, and then buy them all at once.  Coin tokens give you the option to do that.  You can build up a deck that does things and gives you coin tokens.  Just watch your coin tokens pile up and ignore victory cards and keep building up your deck to generate as many coin tokens per turn as you can.  Then when you're ready, cash them all in at once and buy all the victory cards.

The trouble with this is that most boards just aren't the sort of board where you can do that.  The reason why most boards can't do that is because you need to be able to build an engine that can generate so many coin tokens per turn that the money you can spend on what would otherwise be green card buys you instead spend buying more engine pieces, while still having enough coin tokens leftover to do all of the green card buying you would normally have done.  In other words, you want most of the coin you generate to be in the form of coin tokens.

As an extreme example, imagine that instead of starting with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates in their deck, each player started with 7 Candlestick Makers and 3 Estates.  If you just did nothing for the entire game except play Candlestick Makers, and then at the end of the game cash in for a big green card buying frenzy, you would hit 4 Provinces in 9-10 turns; 5 Provinces would take 11-12 turns.  If your friend is just playing some normal BM strategy, using the coin tokens only to smooth out buys, then I have no idea how long he would take because I don't have a Guilds simulator.  But it would probably be a lot slower.

So yeah, if you're considering going for a "build up a pile of coin tokens" strategy, you should ask yourself how high of a ratio of coin tokens to total coin you will be producing each turn.  I'm not sure where the cutoff point is, but if it feels very high, then it's more likely to be a viable approach to the kingdom.
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sudgy

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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2013, 08:54:03 pm »
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Probably the best megaturn: Play a bajillion Merchant Guilds, buy a bajillion Coppers, trashing them all with Watchtower.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

blueblimp

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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 04:32:16 pm »
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Probably the best megaturn: Play a bajillion Merchant Guilds, buy a bajillion Coppers, trashing them all with Watchtower.
Definitely not the best megaturn. Try the same thing with Goons (VP this turn instead of next turn? yes please) or Bridge (I'll just win this turn thanks, no need to wait).

(And yes, I know that playing a small number of MGs is a better mini-megaturn than playing a small number of Bridges.)
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sudgy

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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 04:48:37 pm »
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Probably the best megaturn: Play a bajillion Merchant Guilds, buy a bajillion Coppers, trashing them all with Watchtower.
Definitely not the best megaturn. Try the same thing with Goons (VP this turn instead of next turn? yes please) or Bridge (I'll just win this turn thanks, no need to wait).

(And yes, I know that playing a small number of MGs is a better mini-megaturn than playing a small number of Bridges.)

I was more saying the best MG megaturn, and I didn't even think it through too much...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Witherweaver

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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2013, 05:07:39 pm »
+2

I feel that, as other have said, coin tokens are best used to hit thresholds.  An unlucky $7 or $6 draw could kill you late in the game if you and your opponent are both rushing Provinces, but having a few extra coin tokens can turn each of those turns into a Province turn, which could be the difference between buying 1-2 Provinces in four turns vs. four provinces in four turns.

If multiple buys are possible, then I guess the question of a megaturn comes into play, but I think in general smoothing out buys are useful more often than a Coin Token megaturn.  I would guess that in most cases you don't generate enough Coin Tokens for a megaturn, and the card that seems like its designed for massive coin-token generation, Merchant Guild, is not really a megaturn card, since it delays its bonus. 

Of course, it depends on the board.  But my guess is that in general it's more useful to spend a few at a time for important things than it is to hoard them.
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Wrclass

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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 09:03:05 pm »
+3

Probably the best megaturn: Play a bajillion Merchant Guilds, buy a bajillion Coppers, trashing them all with Watchtower.
Definitely not the best megaturn. Try the same thing with Goons (VP this turn instead of next turn? yes please) or Bridge (I'll just win this turn thanks, no need to wait).

(And yes, I know that playing a small number of MGs is a better mini-megaturn than playing a small number of Bridges.)

I was more saying the best MG megaturn, and I didn't even think it through too much...

There's only 10 Merchant Guilds in the supply, you can't play a bajillion of them.
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DG

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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2013, 09:38:34 pm »
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The bad news about coin tokens is that you can use them in a number of different ways. Yep, it all depends upon the kingdom.

The stonemason is the most difficult card in the expansion. Lots of tricks with purchasing. Lots of tricks with card play. Very easy to play it badly. It's challenging the governor as the #1 headache in Dominion.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2013, 10:14:48 am »
+5

There's only 10 Merchant Guilds in the supply, you can't play a bajillion of them.
1 bajillion < 10 (for very small values of 1 bajillion)
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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2013, 11:27:57 am »
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Quote
There's only 10 Merchant Guilds in the supply, you can't play a bajillion of them.
Its only different by a few orders of magnitude, which can be safely ignored for our purposes. Proof left as an exercise.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2013, 11:39:20 am »
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Quote
There's only 10 Merchant Guilds in the supply, you can't play a bajillion of them.
Its only different by a few orders of magnitude, which can be safely ignored for our purposes. Proof left as an exercise.

A simple scaling argument will show this.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Guilds Strategy
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2013, 11:41:58 am »
+3

The bad news about coin tokens is that you can use them in a number of different ways. Yep, it all depends upon the kingdom.

The stonemason is the most difficult card in the expansion. Lots of tricks with purchasing. Lots of tricks with card play. Very easy to play it badly. It's challenging the governor as the #1 headache in Dominion.

No tricks with playing it:

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