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Author Topic: Cities! :O  (Read 36454 times)

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AngelKurisu

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Cities! :O
« on: August 27, 2013, 01:19:58 pm »
+5

Doug has implemented the next expansion, Innovation: No Place Like Home on Isotropic, for beta testing. 

I am in the midst of moving my apartment, so I will and have been scarce in August, but I'll try and pop on there for some games at times :)

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Kirian

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 04:26:48 pm »
+10

"Istanbul3 was Constantinople3. Now it's Istanbul3, not Constantinople3. Why'd I change it? I can say. Because it fits on the card that way."

DougZ wins at life.
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popsofctown

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 05:18:09 pm »
0

The real beauty of this is that Constantinople is famous for having had multiple different names throughout the course of history, so swapping its name between the RL and online version is a flavorful echo of the name changes it had from regime changes.
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dougz

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 05:23:52 pm »
+5

Just for the record (in case it's not clear), the card is really "Constantinople", but that doesn't fit.  I generally avoid making arbitrary changes to the games I implement but this way seemed way more amusing than some awkward abbreviation (I'm looking at you, "Rio de J.".)

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Darthcaboose

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2013, 05:51:08 pm »
0

Just for the record (in case it's not clear), the card is really "Constantinople", but that doesn't fit.  I generally avoid making arbitrary changes to the games I implement but this way seemed way more amusing than some awkward abbreviation (I'm looking at you, "Rio de J.".)



Nifty!

Thanks for implementing Cities Dougz! Now my brain will burn for an eternity when I make sure I have exactly two top cards of... wait...
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ConMan

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2013, 07:37:35 pm »
+1

The real beauty of this is that Constantinople is famous for having had multiple different names throughout the course of history, so swapping its name between the RL and online version is a flavorful echo of the name changes it had from regime changes.
And also, there's a song "Istanbul (Not Constantinople)", which I believe dougz was specifically referencing.
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teasel

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2013, 08:33:49 pm »
0

i'm not sure i understand how attack cards work....

either that or the condition are absurdly hard to achieve

also i've seen people take a city action and ending up tucking a card... is that normal?

why not change the "city" button into something like "attack!!!" ?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 08:38:44 pm by teasel »
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dougz

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2013, 08:43:57 pm »
+1

City actions and Attack actions are different things.

The City action is, basically: at the start of your turn, if you have a city on top and a card of that city's age or less in your hand, you can tuck the card and then you get a free dogma action of any top card whose featured icon matches one of the icons on the city.  It's free because it doesn't count as one of your two actions for the turn.  The dogma part is actually optional; if you want you can only do the tuck.  (The tuck is required; if you don't have an eligible card to tuck then you can't do a City action.)

Attack actions are using the Pillage/Raze/Invade/Conquer/Annex cards you get for melding a city with a meld action.  If you have one of those cards and you meet its conditions for attacking a particular city (each one has different requirements), you can use it.  (The attack card will appear as a button if it is currently possible to use it on some city.)  This is not a free action; it counts as one of your two for the turn.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 08:47:25 pm by dougz »
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teasel

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2013, 08:46:49 pm »
0

ooooooohhhh i see,i skipped the part about the city action and assumed that was how you did attack since the attack button never popped out

now i feel like a dunce

EDIT: is there a reason why i can't take a city action even if i have an equal or lower value of that city age in my hand?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 08:54:49 pm by teasel »
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dougz

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2013, 08:58:29 pm »
+1

EDIT: is there a reason why i can't take a city action even if i have an equal or lower value of that city age in my hand?

It has to be the first thing you do on your turn.  If you've already taken an action it's not an option any more.  That and having a card of the appropriate age are the only requirements I think.
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teasel

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2013, 09:15:13 pm »
0

ah that has to be it then...

let me see if i understand the attacks

Red - get triple the icon of one of the kind of icon on the card,score that card and card of the same value in opponent hand
Purple - if i have double the top of card of that value,that's it,if you have a card of value 1 i need two cards of value 1 and if you have two cards of value 1 i need four cards of value 1... and if you have three cards that have the samue value this attack is impossible to use if you do score that card and card of the same value in opponent board
Green - if that color is splayed and i have 4 more card than you,achieve that card
Yellow - if all your cities have a total of 3 times bigger than opponent city (that's it,you have a 9 city and your opponent has a 3,or you have a 4 and 2 and your opponent has a 2) steal that card and card from your opponent hand
Blue - you need to have at least as many as that icons city and one of them you need them double,so if you want to steal a crown/castle city and your opponent has 2 castle and 3 crown you'd need 4 castle and 3 crown or 2 castle and 6 crown,if you do you steal the city and the highest card in your opponent hand like if you just used archery

isn't the purple attack pretty much impossible to use? and the green attack seems way to better than the others
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ConMan

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2013, 01:45:03 am »
0

ah that has to be it then...

let me see if i understand the attacks

Red - get triple the icon of one of the kind of icon on the card,score that card and card of the same value in opponent hand
Purple - if i have double the top of card of that value,that's it,if you have a card of value 1 i need two cards of value 1 and if you have two cards of value 1 i need four cards of value 1... and if you have three cards that have the samue value this attack is impossible to use if you do score that card and card of the same value in opponent board
Green - if that color is splayed and i have 4 more card than you,achieve that card
Yellow - if all your cities have a total of 3 times bigger than opponent city (that's it,you have a 9 city and your opponent has a 3,or you have a 4 and 2 and your opponent has a 2) steal that card and card from your opponent hand
Blue - you need to have at least as many as that icons city and one of them you need them double,so if you want to steal a crown/castle city and your opponent has 2 castle and 3 crown you'd need 4 castle and 3 crown or 2 castle and 6 crown,if you do you steal the city and the highest card in your opponent hand like if you just used archery

isn't the purple attack pretty much impossible to use? and the green attack seems way to better than the others
The purple attack should be doable more often than you think, and it encourages some tricky decision making about melding over certain values of card - if you've got an Age 1 city and Age 1 base card as two of your top cards, and I have a board of 3 Age 1 cards, a City (which may or may not be one of the Age 1s) and Pillage, then if you meld a 2 over the base card then I can score your City. Alternatively, you could use a blue card like Physics aggressively to force your opponent to cover up some of their cards, thus allowing you to use it - same goes for most of the attacks, really.

I must admit, looking at the v0.85 rules I have, some of the attacks seem to have been tweaked, or at least clarified. I also note the change to the ruling on Attacks - originally you could hold as many as you wanted, so I assume the "keep only one rule" was because they needed serious nerfing.

Edit: Also, I haven't looked to see if the attacks have changed between 0.85 and 0.95, but I do remember there being some confusion over the wording when I tried playing with them (not even counting a typo on the red one).
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 01:47:56 am by ConMan »
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Ref

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2013, 01:53:40 am »
0

If you are in a situation where you could draw a Figure or a City, and the figures of that age are exhausted, do you get a City or a Base card?
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popsofctown

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2013, 02:03:37 am »
0

Base, I think.
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timchen

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2013, 03:09:26 am »
0

The drawing rule is surely confusing!

And frankly speaking after a game I haven't found much appeal. There is no yee-ha moments for newbie players since the cities have no dogma and they are too similar to one another. Why do we need 10 city cards for every age? And I have to constantly track how many what age cards I have on the board just to draw correctly. The attacking conditions are fairly hard to keep track of too.

I think a worthwhile question to ask is that "suppose you have not yet played enough innovation, will you find the expansion more fun than base itself?" For the two previous expansions I would say yes. The added mechanics are fun. (Well, except echoes is somewhat broken with the current drawing rule...) This new expansion does not give me the justification of the more complicated rules.

 
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teasel

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2013, 09:36:37 am »
0

what i like

+ 6 icons card
+ reward icon dominance
+ getting a free action is awesome

what i don't like

- the cities having no dogma kinda makes them flavorless and lot of the cities feel the same even if they do have some subtle difference's
- not having any new instant victory condition (especialy not any new age 10 card)
- playing with all the expansion feels super complicated,i feel like a headless chicken running most of the time
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AJD

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2013, 10:34:33 am »
0

By contrast, I find it refreshing to have a new expansion in which I don't have to try to read and learn and understand a whole bunch of new dogma/echo/inspire effects. Not that I dislike the card effects from Echoes and Figures, you understand, but there sure are a lot of them and it's refreshing to have a break from so many new card effects.
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Kirian

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2013, 10:41:06 am »
0

Like timchen, I can't say I'm thrilled about this one.  The thing that strikes me most is the forced drawing mechanic.  One is forced to draw Echoes cards instead of Base cards under certain conditions, but one usually doesn't mind drawing Echoes cards; they're generally enough more powerful than Base cards that being able to draw them is restricted anyway.  Similarly, Figures are powerful enough that getting to draw one often requires a sacrifice--either falling behind, or letting an opponent share your dogma.

But drawing of Cities is entirely based on board state, and it's possible to get trapped in a loop where it becomes difficult to impossible to draw non-City cards for a turn or two.  And it's a double-whammy: if the Cities drawn are in the same color as your already-melded cards, not only would melding them cover one of your dogmas, but melding them doesn't help you draw anything but more Cities.

Now that wouldn't be so bad if Cities had dogmas on them... but they are, as teasel points out, individually flavorless, and the lack of a dogma means that a board full of Cities feels like spinning your wheels--especially if you can't draw anything but Cities for a turn or two!
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ksasaki

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2013, 11:18:25 am »
0

I dunno about you guys, but having three actions in a turn is pretty powerful.  I only did this in solitaire, but I managed to have industrialization and a factory city.  Being able to churn out three industrializations in one turn is pretty sick.  you keep drawing cities?  Just use a city action, even if you don't get to use the bonus "action" it is still a free tuck and more power on your board.  I agree about the rules about those five attack cards being confusing, but you can just not pay attention to it, because the icon actually changes when you can use it.  However, it is nice to know how they work so you can be prepared when your opponent suddenly achieves your board or steals your hand.  The conditions are pretty easy to comprehend though, and after playing a few games, I'm sure we'll get used to it. 
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teasel

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2013, 11:23:55 am »
+1

city a scoring dogma and then use your 2 action to achieve 2 ages,that's the best part of the expansion

another nice thing is that it makes the icon figures a lot more usefull... i had an hilarious game where i melded adam smith so i could conquer the opponent city so my opponent melded margaret thatcher and killed off adam smith ;D
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teasel

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2013, 02:29:12 pm »
0

playing more game i don't like this expansion... most of the time it's hard to use the free action or the attacks so in the end you just end up drawing more junk card than you should... if you play with all the expansion you have to get 9 achievements and 75% of the time the game will ends either by special victory condition or by someone teching up to 10 and ending the game by drawing eleven

changes that i think would be really needed

- add a rule to better control the city draw like the rule for drawing echoes card,the problem with the current rule is that i end up drawing a city card even when i don't want to draw a city card
- make it so that the city action can be used at any moment,one of the trouble that make city action hard to use is that it has to be your first action... sometimes the card you want to city is in your hand and sometimes you have no card in hand and therefore nothing to tuck and it just make the city sit there unused

maybe

- rework the purple attack,i've never seen it used... nerf the green attack,a free achievement is just too powerfull compared to the other which is weird because green is probably the easiest... maybe you could make the condition of each attack easier but they only affect the city instead of the opponent hand/board

lot of work

- put actual effect in those city card,yes i understand the point is to have a textless expansion but one of the thing that makes the game fun is that each card has it's own personality,A.I destroy the game by causing a robot uprising,banking buys the card from the opponent board by giving them money (score) the cities do nothing,they just sit there... maybe instead of having 5 different attack,you could have each city have it's own attack action,or each city action is different,for example sparta attack might count your castle's to return an opponent city since spartan have a fame as warmongers... washington might be higher on the list and be an age 9 card and have the effect of nuking the whole board if your opponent has more achievement than you since that's where the white house reside and we all know about the red button jokes

amsterdam is famous for their cheese so maybe when you city amsterdam on top of the free city dogma,you get another free dogma out of your yellow pile,or your score the top card of your yellow pile,or you transfer the yellow card from an opponent board to yours and so on... if it steal a card then i have a reason to use the city action even if i don't have any dogma that share an icon with the city

less work

- instead of having 5 attack per color,make 50 attacks and have an attack for each age and as age progress the attack gets better and more easier to use,this way you don't see stuff like "i meld singapore and then raze berlin" which is really silly,higher age attack might be stuff like "send tanks" or "cause stock crash" and of course they could be more thematicaly fit (stock crash eat all opponent crown cards for example) this way it still remains textless but still become more flavorfull


« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 05:51:53 pm by teasel »
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Jerk of All trades

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2013, 05:55:54 pm »
0

I'm loving cities, it adds a LOT of options and strategies.  The new options to tech-up and splay are amazing.  Too often I've been stuck, unspayed, at level 2, or level 6 with all of the good tech-up cards gone, and my opponent at level 5.  and I just keep drawing and drawing.  now I can meld 2, 2s (get a free city).  And draw cities until I get a + or even better a ++.

Play ++ (draw 2 next level cards)
Meld 2 next level cards (get a free city)
....
Profit!
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timchen

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2013, 06:33:24 pm »
0

That sounds slow. And one thing I like innovation is precisely that sometimes u will stuck at certain age. It's  all about doing the right things at the right time, not about endless techups.

Oh and one thing i also dislike is that those splay and tech effects only kick in when you meld them. Isn‘t this a bit excessive when the card already has no dogma? Draw and meld becomes quite undesirable as your dogma option becomes less.

Maybe the idea is to have an icon arm race? Not sure how it really pkays like...
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popsofctown

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2013, 09:51:38 pm »
0

Cities decreases choices, it literally removes choices by covering up cards with dogmas with cards with no dogmas.  Choices are what make games fun.
I think the city action is really bad for the game.  There's not enough downside, you almost always want to do it.  You just randomly might have bad icon sync, and will get disallowed from doing it that way.  It introduces variance without introducing a meaningful choice. 
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Kirian

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Re: Cities! :O
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2013, 10:37:02 pm »
0

Cities decreases choices, it literally removes choices by covering up cards with dogmas with cards with no dogmas.  Choices are what make games fun.

This is a much more succinct statement of what I was getting at.
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