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Author Topic: Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)  (Read 7019 times)

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ta56636

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Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)
« on: August 27, 2013, 05:18:56 am »
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Introducing Band of Outcasts.  Thanks for help from all below.  I've up-ed it to +$3 but removed the 'may' from the buy option, forcing you to use at least $2 on an action (except in the very rare case when there's no actions less than $4).  It'll try and test it out now...


OLD INFO BELOW - PLEASE SEE ATTACHED CARD IMAGE INSTEAD

Code: [Select]
Played a great game last night:

Vagrant, Embargo
Shanty Town
Procession, Rats, Salvager, Armory
Band of Misfits, Count
Altar

And it inspired me with two new ideas (not sure they are that original):

First based on procession/throne room.  It is basically a throne room played over two turns.  It's worded this way as I think it'll still work (I think) when you play it on itself (for example). 


[b]$5? Action-Duration[/b]

Choose an action card from your hand.

Gain a copy of it, place it on this [name of this card] and play it at the start of your next turn,

Play the action card and return it to it's supply pile.


Second is based on Band of Misfits:

[b]$4? Action[/b]

Play any number of treasure cards from your hand as you would in your buy phase.

Play this as if it were an action card in the Supply costing the $ value generated by the treasure cards + $2.

This is that card until it leaves play.



NB: You then can't use those treasure cards to buy anything.  I'm not sure I've got the balance of this second card quite right, but I do really like the idea.  (I originally didn't have the +$2, but it seemed a bit weak then).
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 10:50:33 am by ta56636 »
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Two new card ideas
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 11:39:57 am »
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What about wording the second card this way:

+$2
You may buy an action card immediately. If you do, play it, then return it to the supply.

This cribs from Black Market, so it would let you play treasures during your action phase to pay for the action you're emulating. Then you don't have to worry about the weirdness of playing treasures that don't generate any money.
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ta56636

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Re: Two new card ideas
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 12:14:51 pm »
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Thanks Drab (after spending a little moment to read your id backwards),

I really like it at first, but there are a couple of issues:

1) I don't want the player to be able to just use the $2 in their buy phase
2) With your wording if you get something that trashes itself (e.g.) Feast you wouldn't lose [whatever I call this card] whereas with my wording you would.


P.S. Also the rules I think state that in order to count in the buy phase they have to be played from your hand.  Those already in play would not count, but they would still be in play for things like Bank.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 12:17:52 pm by ta56636 »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Two new card ideas
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 12:26:51 pm »
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I think I've seen the first concept before, possibly even in one of the Secret Histories.  Your execution is somewhat awkward.  There doesn't seem to be much point to gaining a copy and returning the one you played.  It would mean that it wouldn't give you a second play if the pile had been empty, you wouldn't be able to use it on Necropolis or any Knight, and usually it would fail on Ruins as well.

Better wording would be:

Delayed Throne Room
$4 - Action-Duration
You may choose an Action card in your hand.  Play it now and at the start of your next turn.

The FAQ should clarify that the chosen Action card remains in play between turns.  This should be fairly intuitive, given that Throne Room remains in play when it is used on a Duration.

Note that I put it at $4, but it could possibly work at $3 as well.  This is because the combined effect is just Throne Room, but the delay tends to weaken it.  This is why Caravan can cost just $4 despite it being equivalent to a delayed Laboratory.

The idea itself is quite interesting, but I don't think it plays very well.  The big thing is that it can lead to a lot of confusion.  Suppose I play DTR on a Wharf.  What should happen is:

- I play DTR-Wharf, getting +2 Cards and +1 Buy.
- Continue turn as normal.
- Next turn, I get +2 Cards and +1 Buy from Wharf as a Duration.
- I additionally play Wharf again, getting another +2 Cards and +1 Buy.
- Continue turn as normal.
- The turn after that, I get +2 Cards and +1 Buy from the second play of Wharf.

That may still seem simple enough, but it can become a nightmare to track if you play more DTR-X during those turns.  It can already be difficult to remember what Durations were played last turn and which ones were played this turn, but DTR can confuse it even more.

But that's not the end of it.  You could also play DTR-DTR.  My head hurts just thinking about it.

It is still an interesting idea though, so it may be neat to test it as an "online only" card, where the computer can help track everything correctly.




As for the second card, Drab's wording is definitely much better.  I may be mistaken, but I don't think I've seen this concept before (of paying to temporarily use a card).  I like the idea.

One potential problem is, again, Durations.  If you use this to put a Duration in play, what should happen is that it should still be returned to the Supply, but you get the bonuses next turn anyway.  This issue already occurs with Procession though, so it's not a huge deal.  (And it doesn't really affect your original wording, but Drab's is better despite this issue.)

Another item of concern is how it plays with cost reduction.  If you can freely copy King's Court with no limit, that gets kind of wild.  BoM is worded such that it can never copy King's Court.  But maybe this isn't much worse than other situations that can arise from the official cards.

Strategically, I have to say that this is probably far too weak.  BoM lets you copy a $4 card for free while this one costs you a Silver.  BoM's strength is flexibility, but this card gouges you terribly to achieve the same.  Drab's wording lets you get +$2 which can be a helpful fall back, but it's still not great.  The only way this beats BoM is that it can mimic more expensive cards, but again -- it's very expensive to do so.  While getting a play of those cards might be nice, consider the alternative -- you could just outright buy that card.  Sure you don't get to play it now, but then you have it.  You don't have to keep paying money to use it.

The idea is neat though.  Maybe there's still way to make it work.




PPE: The reason why Drab's wording is better is because it follows an official card.  You are trying to create your own mechanic for playing Treasure in the action phase, but that's already been done with the promo card Black Market.  Doing it a different way is messy and confusing.  If you aren't familiar with Black Market, you can read up about it on the f.ds wiki.

You seem to have a slight misunderstanding about how treasures work.  When you play a Treasure, it generates coin in the same way that an action card would.  Even though you play the Treasure in the action phase, the coin is still available to use in the Buy phase.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 12:27:52 pm by eHalcyon »
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AJD

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Re: Two new card ideas
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2013, 01:25:36 pm »
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Better wording would be:

Delayed Throne Room
$4 - Action-Duration
You may choose an Action card in your hand.  Play it now and at the start of your next turn.

Donald X playtested this for Seaside and cut it; it was too weak to cost even $3, aside from being confusing with Duration cards.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Two new card ideas
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2013, 02:53:26 pm »
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Better wording would be:

Delayed Throne Room
$4 - Action-Duration
You may choose an Action card in your hand.  Play it now and at the start of your next turn.

Donald X playtested this for Seaside and cut it; it was too weak to cost even $3, aside from being confusing with Duration cards.

Ah, I knew I'd seen it before.

Quote
- There was a now-and-later Throne Room variant. Play an Action, play it again next turn. It was both confusing and weak. What if you use it on a duration card? How long does it stay on the table? It could have said "non-duration," but that's pretty sad in a set with 8 duration cards. And did I mention it was weak? It left before development started.
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ta56636

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Re: Two new card ideas
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2013, 08:28:23 pm »
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Thanks - really interesting.


In relation to DTR:

Interesting - I can't imagine it being that weak at $3 - but what do I know!

As for the confusion - yeah - I can see the problems - I think I could solve DTR -> DTR with a DTR mat, but not DTR -> Wharf.

Maybe on the back burner for a bit:


As for the other card I see your points -> what about:

$4? Action

+$2
You may buy an action card immediately.
If you do, play it, then return it to the supply.
If you do not return it to the supply, trash this card.


Drabs wording also given some interesting events with on-gain abilities such as Ill-gotten-gains etc.

As regards the durations problem (which I can see is the same as procession) - could you use some kind of token to remind you to put it back in the supply after the last turn in which it does something (as a help rather than a requirement).

I would be surprised if it was super weak, just because of the flexibility (particularly in engines?) - maybe time to try and play test it.
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mail-mi

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Re: Two new card ideas
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2013, 08:34:12 pm »
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Thanks - really interesting.


In relation to DTR:

Interesting - I can't imagine it being that weak at $3 - but what do I know!

As for the confusion - yeah - I can see the problems - I think I could solve DTR -> DTR with a DTR mat, but not DTR -> Wharf.

Maybe on the back burner for a bit:


As for the other card I see your points -> what about:

$4? Action

+$2
You may buy an action card immediately.
If you do, play it, then return it to the supply.
If you do not return it to the supply, trash this card.


Drabs wording also given some interesting events with on-gain abilities such as Ill-gotten-gains etc.

As regards the durations problem (which I can see is the same as procession) - could you use some kind of token to remind you to put it back in the supply after the last turn in which it does something (as a help rather than a requirement).

I would be surprised if it was super weak, just because of the flexibility (particularly in engines?) - maybe time to try and play test it.
if you want to have the choice to keep the card, then it must say "you may return this to the supply."
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ta56636

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Re: Two new card ideas
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2013, 08:41:00 pm »
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I don't want them to have the option to keep it -> the clause is in their to stop you using feast and keeping this card.  Maybe it's not necessary.

Also on reflection I think Halcyon is right, and it might be a bit weak - I wonder if there is a way of it giving you +$3 but only to spend on the temporary card.  That might be the right balance...
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ta56636

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Re: Two new card ideas
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2013, 08:43:07 pm »
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Maybe

$4? Action

You may buy an action card immediately.
If you do, play it, then return it to the supply, +$3


That's just off the top of my head so maybe completely wrong

Nah - that doesn't work with Ruins or Poor house etc.  Hmmm
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 08:46:00 pm by ta56636 »
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Warfreak2

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Re: Two new card ideas
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2013, 04:30:46 am »
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You can avoid tracking issues by not splitting the plays over two turns. Here's one from my stash:

Queen's Court, Action/Duration, $6
You may set aside an Action card from your hand. At the start of your next turn, play it three times.

Not sure if the disadvantage of really slow QC->QC->... shenanegans pushes it down to $5.
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ta56636

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Re: Two new card ideas
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2013, 06:10:33 am »
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I quite like Queen's court - that is a clever way around the problem.

As to the other card - I think I have a solution now - will post later...
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2013, 12:23:27 pm »
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Can't use the money for real buys?

"+$3.
You may buy an action card immediately. If you do, play it, then return it to the supply.
-$3, to a minimum of $0."

This probably has some undesirable interactions with other actions that give money.

Alternative idea:

"You may buy an action card immediately for half it's cost (in coins, maybe?), rounded up.   If you do, play it, then return it to the supply."
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ta56636

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Re: Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2013, 12:48:00 pm »
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Hi Drab,

I think I've got a more elegant solution - cast your eye over the first post if you've got a sec - I've edited it there.

The way I've done it, the most you'll normally get is +1 I believe.
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Re: Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2013, 05:11:26 pm »
+1

Introducing Band of Outcasts.  Thanks for help from all below.  I've up-ed it to +$3 but removed the 'may' from the buy option, forcing you to use at least $2 on an action (except in the very rare case when there's no actions less than $4).  It'll try and test it out now...


Played a great game last night:

Vagrant, Embargo
Shanty Town
Procession, Rats, Salvager, Armory
Band of Misfits, Count
Altar

And it inspired me with two new ideas (not sure they are that original):

First based on procession/throne room.  It is basically a throne room played over two turns.  It's worded this way as I think it'll still work (I think) when you play it on itself (for example). 


$5? Action-Duration

Choose an action card from your hand.

Gain a copy of it, place it on this [name of this card] and play it at the start of your next turn,

Play the action card and return it to it's supply pile.


Second is based on Band of Misfits:

$4? Action

Play any number of treasure cards from your hand as you would in your buy phase.

Play this as if it were an action card in the Supply costing the $ value generated by the treasure cards + $2.

This is that card until it leaves play.



NB: You then can't use those treasure cards to buy anything.  I'm not sure I've got the balance of this second card quite right, but I do really like the idea.  (I originally didn't have the +$2, but it seemed a bit weak then).

Why is it 1-point size?
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ta56636

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Re: Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2013, 06:39:05 pm »
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Just so that people looking at the thread don't need to look at a load of stuff that is no longer relevant - but it is still their for anyone who, for whatever reason, as still interested.  I originally had it as strikethrough, but then the card itself wasn't so obvious...
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ta56636

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Re: Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2013, 06:24:35 am »
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Just managed to do the first play test of this card and - as it was only solo play - I decided to go for the first game kingdom (http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/07/30/building-the-first-game-engine/) substituting BoO for Workshop.

I decided to go for Village/Smithy type deck opening Village, BoO.

Throughout the game I bought 2 BoO total - and used them as Remodel (when drawn by itself at the start and later in the game), Smithy (when drawn with Village), Village (when drawn with Smithy) and Woodcutter for $ and extra buy.

I was drawing my deck by turn 7.  Although I would normally go for double province buys in a real game, I decided to go straight for provinces.  Provinces by turn 9, 10, 11.  Gold buy on 12, which got remodelled (by BoO) on turn 13 to Province with a Duchy buy also.

I stopped there: cards in deck:

4 Province
1 Duchy
2 Estates

3 Villages
3 Smithies
2 Band of Outcasts
2 Markets

7 Copper

Trash - Gold/Estate

Overall impressions.
It's a strong card.  I found it a really fun card (but them I'm biased  ::) )  It was interesting without being overwhelming and was (in this basic kingdom) straightforward enough to play (I didn't even find it necessary to physically take the card it was mimicking from the supply).  Very please so far :)  Next I'll maybe try it with a random kingdom.
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ta56636

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Re: Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2013, 07:05:15 am »
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P.S. I would add the following wording at the bottom of the card:

If you are unable to do so trash this card.

Otherwise it would interact too favourably with Feast, Pillage, Death Cart etc.
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Re: Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2013, 08:32:56 am »
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P.S. I would add the following wording at the bottom of the card:

If you are unable to do so trash this card.

Otherwise it would interact too favourably with Feast, Pillage, Death Cart etc.

Is it really necessary to add that complexity? I mean, Throne Room interacts well with those cards too. Some cards work well with other cards.
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ta56636

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Re: Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2013, 09:10:20 am »
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I just thought that BoO used exclusively on Death cart becomes a 4 value action giving +3$ while I can't see anyone buying Feast itself on a board with BoO as it basically allows you to to pay $1 to buy a 5 value card each time it comes up. With TR -> feast you only get to use it twice, and you have to have feast and TR in your hand at the same time.

But, maybe you're right and they would just be really good combos.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2013, 09:13:37 am »
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I think that the bigger issue with Death Cart is that it will immediately be covered by a pair of Ruins in your Discard Pile.  Thus Band of Outcasts will be unable to find it to put it into play, Death Cart will be unable to find itself to trash, and Band of Outcasts will be unable to find it to return it to the Supply.

There is a similar issue with Border Village, any Embargoed Action, or when Haggler is in play.

Lastly, what happens if you play this while Possessed?  Do you play the gained card from your opponent's Discard pile!?  And then the card would stay in that opponent's Discard pile.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2013, 09:29:25 am »
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Just so that people looking at the thread don't need to look at a load of stuff that is no longer relevant - but it is still their for anyone who, for whatever reason, as still interested.  I originally had it as strikethrough, but then the card itself wasn't so obvious...

The tiny text is pretty distracting.  It makes me jump through some extra hoops to find out whether I'm missing some sort of important information.  If you want to set aside obsolete text while making it available, try using the code tag:
Code: [Select]
Played a great game last night:

Vagrant, Embargo
Shanty Town
Procession, Rats, Salvager, Armory
Band of Misfits, Count
Altar

And it inspired me with two new ideas (not sure they are that original):

First based on procession/throne room.  It is basically a throne room played over two turns.  It's worded this way as I think it'll still work (I think) when you play it on itself (for example).


$5? Action-Duration

Choose an action card from your hand.

Gain a copy of it, place it on this [name of this card] and play it at the start of your next turn,

Play the action card and return it to it's supply pile.


Second is based on Band of Misfits:

$4? Action

Play any number of treasure cards from your hand as you would in your buy phase.

Play this as if it were an action card in the Supply costing the $ value generated by the treasure cards + $2.

This is that card until it leaves play.



NB: You then can't use those treasure cards to buy anything.  I'm not sure I've got the balance of this second card quite right, but I do really like the idea.  (I originally didn't have the +$2, but it seemed a bit weak then).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2013, 10:51:12 am »
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Spoiler tags are probably best.

Good catch on some weird interactions with Possession, Death Cart.

For playtesting, it sounds like it was only used on cards costing less than $5. That means it was basically BoM. To get an actual sense of it, you need to test it with more expensive cards. As it is, it may be too similar to BoM, especially if it is only ever used on cards that BoM can mimic for free.
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ta56636

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Re: Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2013, 11:01:45 am »
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Bear in mind that that kingdom has no power-5s (I wasn't even sure about both my market buys).  Also BoM is $5 so couldn't have been used in the same way and each time I played a 4 I had to play a copper.  I suspect it will hold up in terms of individuality, but will keep an open mind.

Not sure about the weird interactions - will have a think (although I don't have alchemy so have never played possession).

For the whole to trash on not to trash debate - I think it effects the following cards (so not actually that many in any case)

Feast
Mining Village
Embargo
Treasure Map
Death Cart
Pillage
and
Knights
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eHalcyon

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Re: Band of Outcasts (Two new card ideas)
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2013, 11:20:45 am »
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Huh, I thought your card also cost $5. It is not(?) significantly weaker than BoM. While you have to pay to mimic, it makes up for it by:

-letting you copy more expensive cards
-potentially generating money by copying a $2.
-playing well with cost reduction (to a point).

But yeah, my main suggestion was to play on a board with expensive cards, because that is where it differs from BoM the most.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 11:24:23 am by eHalcyon »
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