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Author Topic: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread  (Read 27229 times)

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Kirian

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GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« on: August 26, 2013, 01:11:00 pm »
0

Please post your results here, and add your commentary and/or discuss other players' matches!
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Geronimoo

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2013, 04:08:59 pm »
+1

Geronimoo 4 - Fabian 2

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130826/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1377543967913.txt
We both open Trader/Market Square. Fabian declines to buy a Witch with his first +$5 hand (I guess because of Trader), but later buys 2 Witches anyway. We both battle for Nobles and Provinces after that and later Duchies. Luck is on my side and I win this mirror match.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130826/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1377544244122.txt
A pretty boring Soothsayer BM game where we both open Militia/Silver. Fabian gets nice hands and wins this easily.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130826/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1377544605594.txt#Game%20Over
A blitz game with Cultists where he opens Cutpurse/Silver to my JoaT/Silver. I'm able to get 5 Cultist when Fabian only has 2. He concedes turn 9 when I play 3 Cultist in a row.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130826/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1377545646880.txt#Game%20Over
This game I got outplayed. I open Moneylender/Silver to his Market Square/Quarry on a Colony board which also features Soothsayer, Tactician/Vault and Laboratory. I'm mostly aiming for Soothsayer BM while Fabian quickly collects all but 2 Labs and transitions into Double Tact/Vault which easily beats my fair BM strategy. Well played!

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130826/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1377546053791.txt#Game%20Over
A Jack centered game with Fishing Villages and Swindlers. He's able to Swindle 4 of my Coppers into Curses, but I get a few nice turns collecting Golds in the early game which is ample economy to win the Province split.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130826/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1377546511256.txt
Now it was my turn to outplay Fabian, although on a much simpler board featuring Minions. I open Counterfeit to his Silver/Silver then start collecting Minions. For some reason Fabian initially doesn't contest me for the Minions, instead opting for Gold and Ghost Ship. Winning the Minions split wins me the game and the match!
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Fabian

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2013, 04:16:51 pm »
+1

I bought Witch as early as I could fwiw.
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2013, 04:58:14 pm »
0

New FAQ:

Question: Dude, why are you so grumpy about keeping the Results thread clear of discussion?

Answer: There are about 40 matches each round.  40 posts is a lot to go through.  56 posts, 16 of which are unimportant to calculating the spreadsheet, is more unwieldy, takes an extra page, and requires me to scroll past posts that aren't superfluous.
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Eevee

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2013, 05:14:51 pm »
+1

It's not good when you get thrown high skill boards against someone who is better than you.  :) Well played SCSN, I didn't have a shot today!
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2013, 05:26:31 pm »
+3

New FAQ:

Question: Dude, I've been matched against top players in all three of my rounds!  What gives?

Answer: Of 81 participants who have actually played a match, 38 of them are in the top 100 on the Isotropish leaderboard.  Chances are good that everyone will play at least one top-100 player.  And that's a good thing!

(Edited for better tone.)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 06:25:12 pm by Kirian »
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jsh357

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2013, 05:50:36 pm »
0

New FAQ:

Question: Dude, I've been matched against top players in all three of my rounds!  What gives?

Answer: Of 81 participants who have actually played a match, 38 of them are in the top 100 on the Isotropish leaderboard.  Do the math.

If it wasn't obvious I was joking.  ;_;
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SCSN

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2013, 06:06:11 pm »
0

It's not good when you get thrown high skill boards against someone who is better than you.  :) Well played SCSN, I didn't have a shot today!

Thanks :) Though your win in our second game was well-deserved.
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2013, 06:23:50 pm »
+1

New FAQ:

Question: Dude, I've been matched against top players in all three of my rounds!  What gives?

Answer: Of 81 participants who have actually played a match, 38 of them are in the top 100 on the Isotropish leaderboard.  Do the math.

If it wasn't obvious I was joking.  ;_;

Hmm... now that I look, my post comes off as standoffish rather than silly/joking.  Darned internet not transmitting facial expressions!
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2013, 07:18:15 pm »
+1

New FAQ:

Question: Dude, I've been matched against top players in all three of my rounds!  What gives?

Answer: Of 81 participants who have actually played a match, 38 of them are in the top 100 on the Isotropish leaderboard.  Chances are good that everyone will play at least one top-100 player.  And that's a good thing!

(Edited for better tone.)

^^ This is the reason why I play in these tournaments.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2013, 09:18:56 am »
+2

My confidence has been shaken to say the least after my first two matches. I lost them both 0-3, I mean they were both against top-20 players so there's no shame in that, but I really wanted to win at least one game in each match and I feel like I just wasn't playing well. Losing because I didn't play my best is something I'm really not OK with.

I went into this match trying to stay focused as much as possible. Play good Dominion and good things will happen to you; just make good choices. It may get repetitive on the videos but I really wanted to be at the top of my game for this match.

It almost seems unfair to me to be starting each game with 7 Coppers in my deck (!!) after playing Hinterlands Act 3 a lot recently. You mean I also don't have to overcome a 3-Duchy deficit on top of that? This game is easy!

uhh, anyways, here's the video playlist link:


Game 1: Archetype 11, AdamH 11

Kingdom: Great Hall, Trade Route, Ironworks, Plaza, Smithy, Throne Room, Margrave, Mountebank, Altar, Possession, with Colony/Platinum

Game 1 video:
Game 1 log: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130826/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1377555398257.txt

I open 2/5 on a Mountebank board, which sets the tone for most of the game. It appears he's playing some defense, and also wants to do some Ironworks/Great Hall stuff. I decide to punish him for opening Ironworks/Trade Route (not so good for getting to $5) by junking him profusely, which seems effective so he goes for a quick 3-pile ending. Unfortunately, I nab a Colony just before and we have a tie score, but I win on turns.


Game 2: AdamH 38, Archetype 36

Kingdom: Transmute, Develop, Tunnel, Gardens, Monument, Procession, Silk Road, Counting House, Laboratory, Tribute

Game 2 video:
Game 2 log: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130826/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1377556417112.txt

Not much going on in the way of engine shenanigans here. With all the Alt VP I want to get some Monuments early and bloat my deck to play a nice long slog. My opponent disagrees and goes for Develop into lots of Labs. I think that deck won't hold up against a slog, but I keep on getting Province hands, so I buy Provinces. Before I know it I'm counting the score many times because I can buy the last Province on a win.


Game 3: AdamH 30, Archetype 17

Kingdom: Swindler, Alchemist, Philosopher's Stone, Armory, Moneylender, Plaza, Procession, Scout, Horn of Plenty, Border Village, with Shelters

Game 3 video:
Game 3 log: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130826/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1377557832720.txt

I don't see much here other than Swindler and Big Money, which is pretty much what I do. He goes for (I think) a Horn megaturn, but without Alchemists to draw it doesn't work out. He goes Swindler-heavy in the end but hits enough Provinces that there's not enough VP left to catch up.


I'm just happy that I managed to stay focused and play some good Dominion. These weren't the most interesting boards, but this is probably what I needed to restore some of my confidence. I'm pretty sure I had some good draws in a lot of these games, but it wasn't perfect. Sort of like how I played.

Thanks for the match, Archetype. I'm glad we got to play it and good luck in the rest of the tournament!
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2013, 11:20:38 am »
+1

MarkowKette against Watno 3:0

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.505c626fa2e6c78ad2ed5aa6.1377612439701.txt
Game1:
Pretty dry BM Board with Marauder as Junker Ghostship and Cartographer
Quite a Mirror with the only difference being that he takes a second Marauder and a Ghostship as 3rd terminal later while i go for only one Marauder and one Ghostship early. We both get lucky in getting only very few terminal collisions and my early ghostship slows him down enough that i can tie the ruins split at 5-5 with a little luck. The key difference makes my higher number of Cartographers and i bring home the victory.

 
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.505c626fa2e6c78ad2ed5aa6.1377612959086.txt
Game2:
Another dry Board featuring Bridge Altar Treasury Upgrade and Farmland
We both open Silver/Bridge he goes for straight Money with 2 Upgrades and i get an Altar instead of the second Upgrade and the load up on treasuries. A very close game where the Farmlands made the small difference in the End.
 

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.505c626fa2e6c78ad2ed5aa6.1377613290642.txt
Game3:
Again no real Engine possibility due to a lack of +actions
But there is trashing and pseudo trashing in form of Ambassador and Steward
Its a shelters game, but i still open Ambassador/Silver while he opts for Steward/Potion (Scrying Pool and Phil Stone on the board)
I'm mainly Ambassadoring him copper and buying silver and go for a steward later to trash my ambassador an shelters.
He is taking the way of buying Phil Stones and Stables which works decently to hit $8.
We are quite even but in the end i have very fortunate shuffle luck buying 5 Provinces within 6Turns.

Thanks to Watno for the games though i hope next time we play we get more interesting boards
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yed

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2013, 02:03:48 pm »
0

Game 1: Archetype 11, AdamH 11
Kingdom: Great Hall, Trade Route, Ironworks, Plaza, Smithy, Throne Room, Margrave, Mountebank, Altar, Possession, with Colony/Platinum
Game 1 video:
Game 1 log: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130826/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1377555398257.txt
I open 2/5 on a Mountebank board, which sets the tone for most of the game. It appears he's playing some defense, and also wants to do some Ironworks/Great Hall stuff. I decide to punish him for opening Ironworks/Trade Route (not so good for getting to $5) by junking him profusely, which seems effective so he goes for a quick 3-pile ending. Unfortunately, I nab a Colony just before and we have a tie score, but I win on turns.
You could have bought Colony in turn 19 by TR-IW for 2 Silvers.
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Jdaki

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2013, 04:49:30 pm »
+2

Jdaki 3 - Gamesou 3
Game 1 42: 40
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1377620361619.txt
Very close game, with tournament pushing us away from the possibility of Duke. Things are very even and caravan makes it easier to win the tournaments- I take followers first, and shortly he matches his singular province and tournament for steed. i am scared then that the silver flood will make it easy to lose the duchy and duke race and regret followers for a few turns. In the end it goes to provinces alone and the two curses have made the difference.

game 2 25:40
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1377621414652.txt
He gets a 5:2 split with witch on the board but takes soothsayer. The extra card helps a little but I can't get to 6 for nobles for ages, he manages to block a couple witches with his trader rather annoyingly, and in the end game the gold in the deck pulls him far away from me.

game 3 32:44
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1377622871880.txt
We both open advisor - chapel. I get chapel drawn and blocked by advisor twice. He grabs another advisor and gets some great early trashing in. With KC and Conspirator there is a lovely engine which I get eventually, but no +buy and I am already 2 provinces behind. I can't be bothered to try and fight with gardens once he gets to 44 points and end it for another loss.

game 4 44:23
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1377623733683.txt
There is clearly a lovely engine possible here, but facing imminent defeat, I play it safe for BM-catacombs/hunting grounds draw. Taxman gets me my money density up, and although he manages some lovely forge- fortress play, he has trashed too hard and can't buy the second forge that would really trouble me. I get some luck with hamlets before big draw and power through.

game 5 37:43
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1377624582729.txt
Some nice cards here but no attacks. gamesou's opening smuggler partly wins it for him grabbing a gold and a duchy as well as storeroom seeming only to draw silvers and golds for him. I am one copper away from winning, and in retrospect think I would have won if I hadn't played the haven, and can't draw due to first player and he finishes it off in his turn.

game 6 35;25
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1377625198268.txt
No chance of a overall victory now and I'm mad at smugglers. Luckily I get some time to think at the start of this kingdom. Silk roads look alluring with fairgrounds and farmlands also available. I'm tempted by baron to get me there, but realise the shelters make this weak and decide to fight the curse war via mountebank first then settle into the silk road slog.
Promptly after I take mountebank with first 5, he follows with explorer! I'm about to ask if its a mislick, but then he buys another one.
He uses the silver on gain to immediately start taking silk roads and I'm worried.
I contest after taking a second mountebank. On turn 10 with SR 4-3 to him, he takes the last one with a hand of 4 silvers.
My hand afterwards is also 8 and I have no dilemma taking a province. The curses must hurt him eventually, and I take duchys over fairgrounds to begin with, until they are worth 4, either way I ensure I never fall behind, and the game isn't long enough for him.

All told some tough and hard fought games. Thanks for them, gamesou.
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Polk5440

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2013, 12:11:20 am »
0

jaybeez defeats Polk 4-2.
This is a series where I just don't think I could have played any better (given my current skills) and really felt like my luck run a little too dry. jaybeez played very well and took advantage of some great opportunities. I apologize I wasn't more gracious in my loss -- that match left me a bit frustrated. Good playing, jaybeez, and I hope to have another chance at playing you in the future! Good luck in future rounds!

Game 1:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1377655392130.txt

This was probably one of the more exciting games of the match even though we went for nearly identical strategies -- engine to Goons megaturn. The only major difference in strategies was I opted for Rabble over Governor on my first $5 (turn 5) while he picked up Governor (turn 4). I picked up Governor turn 6. My thinking was that since drawing was super important, I didn't want to give the draw externality so early in the match. I think I also more effectively used Hermit early to trash Estates and pick up Menageries and a Crossroads. Turn 7 was Goons, turn 8 Mint (trash 5 Coppers). I felt really good about this deck.

Then he's able to Mint away almost all of his Treasures on turn 11, and my deck doesn't fire as well as I would have hoped on turns 12 and 13. Here is where I maybe lost the game. I was up a little in points but was concerned about piles. Unless he got a near perfect turn, he couldn't end the game in one turn. Maybe I should have taken the time on turn 12 to pick up a couple of more Governors.

Anyway, he's able to get another big turn and out into a lead where I cannot catch up by emptying piles, and my deck is not built to handle so much green. I lose.

Game 2:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1377655914829.txt

I go Double Jack and pick up two Minions as well. Sea Hag is on the board, but we both avoid it. He opts for Golem. While he accidentally trashes a Nomad Camp at one point, I think this actually helps his deck.

He breaks PPR (I think incorrectly) and I win by buying out the last Province.

Game 3:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1377657246301.txt

Let the frustrations begin. We both open Ambassador-Ambassador. Both of mine end up as the bottom two cards in my deck missing the reshuffle. I lose the Ambassador war so badly there is nothing I can do in this game. On to game 4!

Game 4:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1377658289235.txt

I am proud of my opening plays here. Watchtower. I get a Nomad Camp and hit the $6 on turn 3 getting an Altar. I am able to load up on Minstrels and Torturers. He goes for a similar strategy (we have our eyes on Horn of Plenty).

Then turn 11 is a total dud. Given everything in my deck, this was not good luck to get any engine pieces. Maybe I brought it on myself with the HoPs too soon? I don't know. I don't think so, though. After his next turn cashing in his HoPs, I thought the match was over. I nearly resigned, but then realizing since the last turn was so bad, this has got to be good, right? I gain a 5th HoP from Altar just in case and sure enough, I am able to overdraw, get the fifth HoP and empty Duchies and Torturers with one HoP left over for a Province and the win. That was close!

Game 5:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1377658797855.txt

I opt for Torturer big money. He opts for Militia and Courtyard big money. I am shocked I lost this so convincingly. I really thought I had the better strategy. But my Torturers collided turns 7, 10, 14, 15, and 20; maybe 2 Torturers and a Courtyard would have been better. Maybe attacks don't matter so much in big money? Or I don't know my big money strategy rankings? I would like some input on this simple game.

Game 6:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1377659518062.txt

I am first. There is Cultist. What happened? We split the Ruins. How? I do not know. We both get Sea Hag. He flips my Sea Hag and is able to transition into Develop-Rats-Duchy. He's really just going Duchies and a third pile to end the game. That was my intention, but I was the one who fell behind, so I couldn't follow. I tried Ironmonger, Baker, and Hamlet with Develop to get an engine going and get Provinces  and hope for the best. Instead I got the worst and lost.

It was a good match. We had a good variety of kingdoms, and I enjoyed playing against a high quality opponent.

Good luck in future rounds, jaybeez.
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ftl

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2013, 12:29:41 am »
+3

Quote
I opt for Torturer big money. He opts for Militia and Courtyard big money. I am shocked I lost this so convincingly. I really thought I had the better strategy. But my Torturers collided turns 7, 10, 14, 15, and 20; maybe 2 Torturers and a Courtyard would have been better. Maybe attacks don't matter so much in big money? Or I don't know my big money strategy rankings? I would like some input on this simple game.

Courtyard BM is really quite good among BM enablers. On the simulator, courtyard-BM beats torturer-BM by about 55-35, so convincingly enough as far as BM mirrors go. 

Courtyard being able to handle collisions by putting back one of the colliding cards for next turn is a big deal, as is the ability to save good cards for next turn when you draw too many of your golds in one hand.

I mean, it's a BM mirror, so some of it is luck of the draw, but courtyard-BM does beat Torturer-BM on average.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 12:37:00 am by ftl »
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jaybeez

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2013, 03:34:31 am »
+1

jaybeez defeats Polk 4-2.
This is a series where I just don't think I could have played any better (given my current skills) and really felt like my luck run a little too dry. jaybeez played very well and took advantage of some great opportunities. I apologize I wasn't more gracious in my loss -- that match left me a bit frustrated. Good playing, jaybeez, and I hope to have another chance at playing you in the future! Good luck in future rounds!

Game 1:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1377655392130.txt

This was probably one of the more exciting games of the match even though we went for nearly identical strategies -- engine to Goons megaturn. The only major difference in strategies was I opted for Rabble over Governor on my first $5 (turn 5) while he picked up Governor (turn 4). I picked up Governor turn 6. My thinking was that since drawing was super important, I didn't want to give the draw externality so early in the match. I think I also more effectively used Hermit early to trash Estates and pick up Menageries and a Crossroads. Turn 7 was Goons, turn 8 Mint (trash 5 Coppers). I felt really good about this deck.

Then he's able to Mint away almost all of his Treasures on turn 11, and my deck doesn't fire as well as I would have hoped on turns 12 and 13. Here is where I maybe lost the game. I was up a little in points but was concerned about piles. Unless he got a near perfect turn, he couldn't end the game in one turn. Maybe I should have taken the time on turn 12 to pick up a couple of more Governors.

Anyway, he's able to get another big turn and out into a lead where I cannot catch up by emptying piles, and my deck is not built to handle so much green. I lose.

I think your Rabble should just have been a Governor.  Rabble's attack isn't that great here and using up a terminal slot for draw when the only village is Crossroads is just really suboptimal.  Well Ironmonger too.  But the point is, that terminal slot is crucial early, I think you want to focus on playing Goons as your terminals--because you can, you don't need to use up actions to draw.  And Governor's drawback is greatly ameliorated by Goons, so I think Gov really outclasses Rabble here.

And when I had that big T11 where I minted away all TEN of my Treasures, my 5 Governors enabled that.  At that point you had one Governor.  I think that's the difference here, my draw was way better.  You got to a multi-Goons turn first but I had the drawing power to enable the huge Mint turn and then continue to draw through the greening.  Which, by the way, was interesting: I wasn't really planning on greening (or buying Coppers) thinking I'd just pile out Governors, Ironmongers, and Menageries or something.  But then you started to green and buy Coppers for points and I felt I had to follow you since the piles were low and I needed to keep my score near or above yours.

Also it's funny, I had kind of forgotten about Mint until you bought yours.  There was a lot going on in this game, only the Tribute and Pirate Ship piles went untouched.  But Governor-Goons always makes for crazy-feeling games I think.

Quote
Game 2:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1377655914829.txt

I go Double Jack and pick up two Minions as well. Sea Hag is on the board, but we both avoid it. He opts for Golem. While he accidentally trashes a Nomad Camp at one point, I think this actually helps his deck.

He breaks PPR (I think incorrectly) and I win by buying out the last Province.

This game is just embarrassing (on my part I mean).  I got a lucky 5-Copper hand (after my first Jack play) on T3 and decided to get cute and go for Mint.  If I had switched to a BM strat there, Minting Silvers and Golds and just rushing Provinces I think it might have worked, I don't know.  But I tried my original plan anyway which was really stupid to begin with.  And yes, breaking PPR was dumb of me, I'm not sure why I did it.

Quote
Game 3:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1377657246301.txt

Let the frustrations begin. We both open Ambassador-Ambassador. Both of mine end up as the bottom two cards in my deck missing the reshuffle. I lose the Ambassador war so badly there is nothing I can do in this game. On to game 4!

Yeah, that's literally the worst possible shuffle luck you can have in that situation.  Can anyone recover from something like that?  I was delighted to Ambassador not one but two Provinces on my last turn so I could buy the last Provinces and win, but other than that, not a very gratifying victory.

Quote
Game 4:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1377658289235.txt

I am proud of my opening plays here. Watchtower. I get a Nomad Camp and hit the $6 on turn 3 getting an Altar. I am able to load up on Minstrels and Torturers. He goes for a similar strategy (we have our eyes on Horn of Plenty).

Then turn 11 is a total dud. Given everything in my deck, this was not good luck to get any engine pieces. Maybe I brought it on myself with the HoPs too soon? I don't know. I don't think so, though. After his next turn cashing in his HoPs, I thought the match was over. I nearly resigned, but then realizing since the last turn was so bad, this has got to be good, right? I gain a 5th HoP from Altar just in case and sure enough, I am able to overdraw, get the fifth HoP and empty Duchies and Torturers with one HoP left over for a Province and the win. That was close!

I thought you played that well, especially the last turn which was very canny of you.  But I think the difference was your second Altar on T5.  I thought it was a mistake at the time, but it really helped you trash more and build more quickly.  Your T3 helped too, that was pretty lucky to draw your Watchtower and your Necropolis, especially having just bought Nomad Camp.  You got your Altar and triggered your reshuffle, and I did the same thing but a full turn later.

Quote
Game 5:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1377658797855.txt

I opt for Torturer big money. He opts for Militia and Courtyard big money. I am shocked I lost this so convincingly. I really thought I had the better strategy. But my Torturers collided turns 7, 10, 14, 15, and 20; maybe 2 Torturers and a Courtyard would have been better. Maybe attacks don't matter so much in big money? Or I don't know my big money strategy rankings? I would like some input on this simple game.

Well I went for Militia and that advantages P1 so there's that.  Torturer-BM is fine, but sometimes the attack doesn't hurt that much--there were two turns where I could have discarded but took the Curse instead and was able to buy Provinces.  The Curse hurts a little but what I'm trying to do here is get to four Provinces as quickly as possible becuase there's no alt-VP and no viable engine, and then I can just coast to victory on Duchies.  I ended up having four Duchies by the time I bought my fourth Province, because of two (non-Tortured) $7 hands but hey the result is the same.

You definitely had some bad luck on Torturer collision but it's also partly because you bought Torturers on T3 and T5, you probably want to stick with one for a few more turns I think.  And you got a third on T10, that might've been too early for that.

I think Courtyard is just generally better for BM than any of the $5 +3 Cards terminals, regardless of the attack or whatever else you get (fake edit: what ftl said).  It went better with my Militia than your Torturers did together.  Yeah when you can't play multiple Torturers in a turn, it's still solid but just not all that great.  A poor man's Margrave I think.  Which is worse when you stack it.  Hm, interesting... someone do a Sudden Clarity Clarence meme for that please.

Quote
Game 6:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1377659518062.txt

I am first. There is Cultist. What happened? We split the Ruins. How? I do not know. We both get Sea Hag. He flips my Sea Hag and is able to transition into Develop-Rats-Duchy. He's really just going Duchies and a third pile to end the game. That was my intention, but I was the one who fell behind, so I couldn't follow. I tried Ironmonger, Baker, and Hamlet with Develop to get an engine going and get Provinces  and hope for the best. Instead I got the worst and lost.

You go first but we pursue virtually identical strategies through about T12, so it's not so weird that we split the Ruins evenly.  I'm helped by a phenomenal draw on T7, I have all three of my Cultists in my opening hand, and one of them I had just bought on the previous turn.  But if I had gotten those three Cultists on three consecutive turns instead (T7-9) or two on T7 and one on T9 or something, actually the split would have gone the same way--and given the draw from my Cultists and the size of my deck, such an outcome is not unlikely.

The Sea Hag thing on the other hand, that's just really really bad luck for you.  Putrid.  I mean, getting Hag-Hagged before the second reshuffle is bad but it's so much more likely than having it happen on T10 in a heavy junking game.  It basically just snowballs from there, but I don't think there was any way you were going to be able to build up to Provinces to overcome my Duchy points in time before the 3-pile ending anyway.

I did like the Develop/Rats/Cultist synergy here, it really pulled in those Duchies.  Speaking of which, when I Developed a Cultist it would always draw for me first.  Since all the effects happen simultaneously when Cultist is trashed, shouldn't I be able to choose to gain a $6 and a $4 and topdeck them, then draw them and the next card with Cultist's on-trash effect?

Quote
It was a good match. We had a good variety of kingdoms, and I enjoyed playing against a high quality opponent.

Good luck in future rounds, jaybeez.

I absolutely agree that this was a good match, you played well and IMO we had only one uninteresting kingdom, the other five were all great.  I think you had some bad luck for sure, and don't worry that you weren't "more gracious", I understand your frustration, we've all been there.

Thanks for the match.
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Polk5440

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2013, 09:47:13 am »
0

Courtyard BM is really quite good among BM enablers. On the simulator, courtyard-BM beats torturer-BM by about 55-35, so convincingly enough as far as BM mirrors go. 

Really?? Wow. I guess my intuition was just way off on this one. With those numbers, then yes, I definitely picked the inferior strategy.
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Polk5440

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2013, 09:55:22 am »
0

I think your Rabble should just have been a Governor.  Rabble's attack isn't that great here and using up a terminal slot for draw when the only village is Crossroads is just really suboptimal.  Well Ironmonger too.  But the point is, that terminal slot is crucial early, I think you want to focus on playing Goons as your terminals--because you can, you don't need to use up actions to draw.  And Governor's drawback is greatly ameliorated by Goons, so I think Gov really outclasses Rabble here.

And when I had that big T11 where I minted away all TEN of my Treasures, my 5 Governors enabled that.  At that point you had one Governor.  I think that's the difference here, my draw was way better.  You got to a multi-Goons turn first but I had the drawing power to enable the huge Mint turn and then continue to draw through the greening.  Which, by the way, was interesting: I wasn't really planning on greening (or buying Coppers) thinking I'd just pile out Governors, Ironmongers, and Menageries or something.  But then you started to green and buy Coppers for points and I felt I had to follow you since the piles were low and I needed to keep my score near or above yours.

Also it's funny, I had kind of forgotten about Mint until you bought yours.  There was a lot going on in this game, only the Tribute and Pirate Ship piles went untouched.  But Governor-Goons always makes for crazy-feeling games I think.

Yeah, I am just going to have to disagree. I never had a problem with actions or chaining because of Ironmongers and action density, and the reason I was able to get Goons turn 7 like you and a multi-Goons turns first from the second seat was because I had several 6 card hands at the start of the game.

Even if I had a Governor instead of the Rabble I still would have been down in Governors. And using the Governor for draw is worse than Rabble if I don't have an action constraint. On turn seven I drew a couple actions dead, but it didn't matter because I was going to buy Goons anyway. That was the only time I had an action constraint.

My mistake was not evening up the Governor count when I had the chance later.
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Polk5440

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2013, 10:16:47 am »
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Quote
Game 6:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1377659518062.txt

I am first. There is Cultist. What happened? We split the Ruins. How? I do not know.

You go first but we pursue virtually identical strategies through about T12, so it's not so weird that we split the Ruins evenly.  I'm helped by a phenomenal draw on T7, I have all three of my Cultists in my opening hand, and one of them I had just bought on the previous turn.  But if I had gotten those three Cultists on three consecutive turns instead (T7-9) or two on T7 and one on T9 or something, actually the split would have gone the same way--and given the draw from my Cultists and the size of my deck, such an outcome is not unlikely.

Actually, my impression is that it is weird to split the ruins since I went first. I should play one Cultist (chain) first which clogs you, which makes it harder to chain, etc.

For second player, it should be much harder to split Ruins with Cultist than it is to split curses with Witch, for example.

But maybe my intuition is off here, too.
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ftl

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2013, 11:29:29 am »
+3

Since all the effects happen simultaneously when Cultist is trashed, shouldn't I be able to choose to gain a $6 and a $4 and topdeck them, then draw them and the next card with Cultist's on-trash effect?

In this case, the effects are not simultaneous.

You follow the instructions on Develop in order - "Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly Coin1.png height=16 more than it and a card costing exactly Coin1.png height=16 less than it, in either order, putting them on top of your deck." So first you trash a card (resolving all on-trash effects, in any order). Then you gain cards.
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nopawnsintended

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2013, 12:11:03 pm »
+3

No Pawns Intended defeats Joseph2302 3-1

Game 1: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130828/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377703283245.txt Joseph 36, No Pawns 28

This game was kinda decided by my opponent's 5-2 opening.  Cultist is on the board, so is Death Cart.  Before seeing his 5-2, I had ideas that I might go Armory into Silvers and Feodumdumdums, but I changed my strategy into a zany "Hey! I'll take all the Ruins!" strategy where I use Death Carts to make good on ruins.  Guess what?  Ruins are bad.  I lose in a pile of Ruins.

Game 2: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130828/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377703806726.txt Joseph 23, No Pawns 30

This game was kinda decided by my 5-2 opening.  I open Butcher-Moat on a board with Young Witch and *Moat* is the Bane.  So, Young Witch is strong.  I Butcher my Estates into additional Moats and a Silver, and his Young Witch never hits.  That was probably lucky on my part, but I'll take it.  Butcher is good at accelerating my win by sealing the victory late game.  I <3 Butcher.

Game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130828/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377704230842.txt Joseph 29, No Pawns 34

This was an interesting IGG-pseudo rush game.  There was IGG-Gardens-Develop, and a couple of sources of +Buy - Woodcutter and Bridge.  Joseph2302 opens Woodcutter, Bridge - effectively announcing that he's going to be picking up some Gardens.  I go Silver/Bridge with the intent of hitting some IGGs, playing a rush and seeing where it goes.  I also pick up a Develop because IGG-into-Gardens is nice, too.  All in all, I slog it out.  I guess I had better economy because I lose the Gardens split, abandon buying IGGs, and just focus on piledriving Duchies.  I'm not quite sure why I won out on this one.  Maybe he didn't build much economy and with the Gardens and Curses, there wasn't much to do.  I felt like I could have played it better, but a win is a win.

Game 4: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130828/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377705138790.txt Joseph 32, No Pawns 43

A Black Market game!  I haven't played with Black Market on Goko, so I'm eager (perhaps too eager) to pick it up.  Scanning the black market, Mountebank is in there, and so is Hermit.  Both look enticing to me, and figure that if I could pick one or both up, that would be worth it.  So, I follow Joseph2302 by opening Marauder-Black Market.  I didn't have a better idea, and I didn't want to get all the ruins (see first game).  I pick up a Torturer for the draw, and get a stack of Native Villages.  My Black Market nets me an early Hermit, which I accidentally turn into a Madman (had no money that turn, and forgot... I wanted it for the trashing, oh well), and a midgame Mountebank.  City is on the board, and Joseph2302 picks up an early City, but I make it my mission to not let it become a City-draw-your-deck-game... mindful of piles, mindful of piles.  I get a couple of provinces from spreading money across turns with Native Village, a natural province, and I guess, a province from my Madman turn.  I wind up having about a 10 point lead with a few Provinces to go, and I milk it by junking with Mountebank.  I end the game on piles by buying the last Duchy for a comfortable win.

Thanks for the games Joseph2302!  I liked that the boards were pretty interesting, allowing for divergent strategies.  Plus, I felt like each of us had our share of luck (maybe me more than my opponent), and each game had a different flavor.  Good luck with the rest of the tourney, Joseph2302.
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Psyduck

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2013, 02:21:41 pm »
+1

Psyduck defeats dudeabides 3-0
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.506b5cfc0cf21d2313f966fe.1377631286811.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.506b5cfc0cf21d2313f966fe.1377632762121.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.506b5cfc0cf21d2313f966fe.1377634564405.txt

Some comments on the games from miy side:

First of all, I'd like to thank dudeabides for being a fantastic opponent. I really enjoyed playing this interesting series of games and discussing them afterwards. :)

Game 1
This one was truly designed for Vineyard. Candlestick Maker, Worker's Village, Highway, Spy, Lab, Stables, Cultist and thus Ruins. Both of us start CM/Silver. I concentrate on CM early on, while dudeabides gets a couple of Stables to get the draw on. Soon we get our potions (having plenty of +buy, I even buy a second one) and evenly split the Vineyards. dudeabides builds up to a very strong deck with some Labs and Highways, but the game is too short to take advantage of it. I use my buys to empty the ruins and win because of the additional action cards.
To be fair, both of us didn't realize the option to buy ruins until pretty late, luckily I got that idea a little bit before he did. ;)

Game 2
I really feel sorry about winning that game. It was by no means deserved, instead I should've been crushed..
Anyway, this was the most interesting game of the match, asking the big question: engine or BM? For me, the engine, featuring Inn, Merchant Guild and Hunting Grounds was just too expensive, also there wasn't any trashing. I thought it would take too long to build up against BM with Merchant Ship, so I started Silver/Scavenger. dudeabides went for the engine and started Sage/Scavenger. Soon he got his first engine components and his deck became stronger from turn to turn. I had to go ahead with Provinces and hope for the best.
In turn 15 he bought 5 Pawns and had like 35 coin tokens to spend. However, he got two ridiculous unlucky turns in a row, while I had $8/$6/$8 to spend. My lead was now just too big to overcome, so he couldn't really make use of his coin tokens.

After the game we agreed that engine was the way to go here, although it is hard to build up with Inn as only village and Hunting Grounds as only draw.
What do you guys think? Was engine the right strategy? How would you have approached it? Would a second Scavenger have helped to improve the reliability, preventing these two bad turns that turned the game upside down?

Game 3
This game featured Remake, Familiar and City as important cards. dudeabides went for Remake, and I was really tempted to follow suit, ignoring Familiar. But as second player I felt I needed to take some risk and bought a Potion. I got really lucky to get my Familiar in turn 4 (and a second one in turn 6), while his Remake missed the shuffle. This pretty much sealed the game, as he couldn't get rid of the Curses. Later we went for Cities, and I think he made a mistake buying Gold and Merchant Guild instead of Cities, so we split the Cities 5-5. I didn't have any problems to end it on piles, afterwards.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2013, 03:24:55 pm »
+2

kn1tt3r vs. hsiale - 3:0

Game 1
Video:
Log: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130828/log.50893139a2e67cff211cd7e5.1377714106922.txt
Maskerade/Money should be better than engine here, right? So I go for that, hsiale does something in between, and I catch a rather clean win.

Game 2:
Video:
Log: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130828/log.50893139a2e67cff211cd7e5.1377714623876.txt
Warehouse/Tunnel. Though I have some decent shuffle luck in the beginning, I think my opponent buys way too many Tunnels instead of more Warehouses to support them. I get an Adventurer, which is actually quite nice here. Maybe lucky draws for me, but also the overall better play I think.

Game 3:
Video:
Log: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130828/log.50893139a2e67cff211cd7e5.1377715490112.txt
Engine around Highway, Festival, Wandering Minstrel, maybe Bazaar, and of course Ambassador. My opponent has an unlucky 5/2 start, but somehow drifts towards Big Money as the game progresses. I "trash" aggressively, have my engine running quite smoothly, and finally hsiale just resigns.
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hsiale

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2013, 04:28:46 pm »
0

I think my opponent buys way too many Tunnels instead of more Warehouses to support them. I get an Adventurer, which is actually quite nice here.
While I agree I got too many Tunnels, I feel your Adventurer plays were really lucky. You played it 4 times to get 6 Gold and 2 Copper in total, while on each play your deck contained more Copper than Gold and additionally, while you had just one Tunnel most of the game and two at the end, half of your Adventurer plays revealed one.

Still I feel I was hugely outplayed games one and three, so definitely a fair outcome :) I still need to work on recognising engine viability.
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