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nopawnsintended

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2013, 12:24:28 am »
0

Quote
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130828/log.5068c69551c38622de84eb0e.1377721728081.txt
Walrus 13 - TA 18

A Swindler-heavy game. His Ironworks is much more effective than my Talisman at picking up Ironmongers. In fact, that makes perfect thematic sense--why didn't I realize that before? How Ironic.

New idea for a Goko username: Ironic Ironmonger
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2013, 02:08:22 am »
+1

A Swindler-heavy game. His Ironworks is much more effective than my Talisman at picking up Ironmongers. In fact, that makes perfect thematic sense--why didn't I realize that before? How Ironic.

It's like ray-he-aaaain...
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2013, 11:53:06 am »
0

Game 4 Destierro 47-35 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130829/log.50a06f0fe4b0638b8d8e5da1.1377844806321.txt
I see Sea Hag. I ignore Sea Hag. Wharf / Counterfeit / Masterpiece BM is so strong here. Mainly the wharves, which Gwinnr decides not to pick up until turn 10, when I already had 4 and 2 counterfeits. My lighthouse maybe should have been a silver, but looking at the log it actually blocked a curse, so good enough.
This is pretty neat. Usually I think of skipping Sea Hag when there's another strong opening card that can help get into the engine better, but you don't usually think of even Silver/Silver being better. But with both of you going for fat-deck strategies, the Sea Hag doesn't get played a lot and the Curses don't get seen a lot, so even double Silver is better than Hag!
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2013, 02:42:41 pm »
+1

Robz888 wins 3.5 - 2.5 over TheMirrorMan. This was one of the tensest tournament rounds I have ever played. All very interesting games and razor-thin margins of victory. I do think luck decided a lot of these games, unfortunately.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1377968256148.txt
Transmute, Black Market, Lookout, Sage, Wishing Well, Feast, Procession, Worker's Village, Apprentice, Adventurer
Actually, this was the only not very interesting game. My strategy was fairly unfocused; there's just so little going on here. Of course the power vacuum makes Black Market a compelling purchase. He manages to pull Sir Michael (the discard Knight) from the BMarket which is sort of super strong since I have no Knights to counteract. I think that basically decided the game.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1377969320111.txt
Crossroads, Hamlet, Black Market, Scheme, Bishop, Throne Room, Bazaar, Ghost Ship, Hunting Party, Minion
A more interesting game, although Black Market luck decided it once again. Our strategies do diverge from the get-go, though. He opens Bishop/Silver. I don't think I like that--the trashing will help me, and hitting $5 is so important! So I'm BM/Silver. He does hit $5 though, and gets into gear pretty quickly. Luckily, I pull Goons for the BM deck, and my deck comes roaring back. I really, really make use of the extra buy VP chips (I'm getting like a Duchy's worth of extra points every turn), and he's in a bad way by the end.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1377970180115.txt
Courtyard, Lighthouse, Warehouse, Navigator, Spy, Wandering Minstrel, Golem, Library, Venture, Nobles
I lose this game, but I would play it exactly the same if we did this set again. The engine just looks so weak to me without +buy or gaining, and Venture should be pretty good for the Courtyard BM play. Well, I never got a Venture, just because I never hit $5 until Duchy time, but I don't think that's such a big deal. Hate to blame shuffle luck, but all my good cards clumped at the end of my last shuffle, and that allowed him to go Province-Province-Province. Maybe you guys can tell me if I am wrong, and the engine is actually better?

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1377970737437.txt
Courtyard, University, Steward, Bridge, Remodel, Talisman, Bazaar, Jester, Rogue, Grand Market
I love sets like these. I notice the Bridge/University for GMs interaction right away, and I plan to build my deck for that purpose. He focuses more on Rogues, which could just be a symptom of his draws. Anyway, I really prioritize Steward trashing, I draw my Bridges at the right times, and my engine goes off big time. I drain GMs, Bazaars, and $0 Courtyards all at once to end the game in a decisive win. I played well, but I also drew really well here. Think his Rogues wouldn't have helped him enough here, though--you really want to be playing more Bridges and Courtyards.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1377971395561.txt
Doctor, Masterpiece, Swindler, Conspirator, Farming Village, JackOfAllTrades, Throne Room, Inn, Mandarin, Adventurer
I get the 5/2, which is sort of manifestly worse here, I think. Should just be a Jack game. Again, there IS an engine here with Conspirators and Inns and Throne Rooms, but without +buy or gainers, it just seems too slow to me. So I'm Jack/nothing to his Jack/Swindler. I actually don't like the Swindler here against Jack. And then he ends up going for the engine anyway, which delights me. Well, maybe I underestimated it. What he CAN do is definitely Province every other turn (on the other turns, he buys Inn to set himself up). And he Swindles a bunch of my Silvers into Masterpieces, which is quite bad. But, I have enough of a lead that all he can do is take the tie.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1377972078694.txt
Poor House, Apothecary, Mining Village, Rats, Remake, Apprentice, Baker, Counting House, Outpost, Hoard
I see Remake, but then I see that Poor House obsoletes it here. Well, there's Rats, but is Remake/Rates really a thing? I think not. Then I notice Apprentice, and Apprentice/Rats is definitely a thing. The Baker token makes it sort of interesting, what order to do what. The presence of Shelters makes an opening Apprentice a little less appealing. I go for that anyway. He opens Baker instead. Yeah, Baker is pretty good, I've found. I spike an early $6 and grab Hoard--Gold trashing with Hoard and Apprentice is really nice. My Rats come a little unevenly, but soon I have it under control and my deck is going nicely. He has a bunch of Bakers, and that's good, too, but what I am doing is just a tad better. I play my last three turns very cautiously, taking Duchies instead of risky trashes, because I assume he can't Province-Province (he is too reliant on Baker tokens). That works out, I trash my Hoard, and win.

I think my opponent played really well; he definitely went for the zanier option a couple times, and was often rewarded for it. I do think most of the games came down to luck (specifically Black Market twice).
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 02:45:45 pm by Robz888 »
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TheMirrorMan

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2013, 03:07:04 pm »
+1

Quote
Robz888 wins 3.5 - 2.5 over TheMirrorMan. This was one of the tensest tournament rounds I have ever played. All very interesting games and razor-thin margins of victory. I do think luck decided a lot of these games, unfortunately.

Yeah I am honestly very happy with my way of playing against a higher rated opponent and I agree, it was razor sharp.

Quote
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1377968256148.txt
Transmute, Black Market, Lookout, Sage, Wishing Well, Feast, Procession, Worker's Village, Apprentice, Adventurer
Actually, this was the only not very interesting game. My strategy was fairly unfocused; there's just so little going on here. Of course the power vacuum makes Black Market a compelling purchase. He manages to pull Sir Michael (the discard Knight) from the BMarket which is sort of super strong since I have no Knights to counteract. I think that basically decided the game.

That Sir Michael pulled off everything and I got it often enough to slow down your strategy. Very lucky to draw that one.

Quote
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1377969320111.txt
Crossroads, Hamlet, Black Market, Scheme, Bishop, Throne Room, Bazaar, Ghost Ship, Hunting Party, Minion
A more interesting game, although Black Market luck decided it once again. Our strategies do diverge from the get-go, though. He opens Bishop/Silver. I don't think I like that--the trashing will help me, and hitting $5 is so important! So I'm BM/Silver. He does hit $5 though, and gets into gear pretty quickly. Luckily, I pull Goons for the BM deck, and my deck comes roaring back. I really, really make use of the extra buy VP chips (I'm getting like a Duchy's worth of extra points every turn), and he's in a bad way by the end.

Well the idea was to thin out the deck making it optimal for the Minions and picking up VPs on the way. But then I bought a throne room in between and the colliding started. I had a hand where I minioned enough only to receive throne room + nothing, then I got one hand with no Minions at all. When I see the Goons appearing, yeah, there go my VPs, especially with hamlets on the board. In the end, Robz pulls it off. Indeed, a bit of luck with BM but it counters my luck in the first game.

Quote
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1377970180115.txt
Courtyard, Lighthouse, Warehouse, Navigator, Spy, Wandering Minstrel, Golem, Library, Venture, Nobles
I lose this game, but I would play it exactly the same if we did this set again. The engine just looks so weak to me without +buy or gaining, and Venture should be pretty good for the Courtyard BM play. Well, I never got a Venture, just because I never hit $5 until Duchy time, but I don't think that's such a big deal. Hate to blame shuffle luck, but all my good cards clumped at the end of my last shuffle, and that allowed him to go Province-Province-Province. Maybe you guys can tell me if I am wrong, and the engine is actually better?

I was actually considering exactly the same thing (going for Big Money), but still decided to go for the engine. The main point was : how to pick up money here ? So lighthouse + navigator, although it seems slow, it seemed to pull it off. Unfortunately Robz drew terribly in the end - I thought I was lost.

Quote
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1377970737437.txt
Courtyard, University, Steward, Bridge, Remodel, Talisman, Bazaar, Jester, Rogue, Grand Market
I love sets like these. I notice the Bridge/University for GMs interaction right away, and I plan to build my deck for that purpose. He focuses more on Rogues, which could just be a symptom of his draws. Anyway, I really prioritize Steward trashing, I draw my Bridges at the right times, and my engine goes off big time. I drain GMs, Bazaars, and $0 Courtyards all at once to end the game in a decisive win. I played well, but I also drew really well here. Think his Rogues wouldn't have helped him enough here, though--you really want to be playing more Bridges and Courtyards.

Nah, I disagree. Luck had nothing to do with this. I didn't see the combo of bridge - university - big market and when I suddenly saw you buying it ... Well, game over. Too late. I thought the Rogue would help me trash your thinned out deck but it rewarded me with a talisman dropping and needing to be picked up. It also serves me right for not picking Steward. *Slap on the head*

Quote
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1377971395561.txt
Doctor, Masterpiece, Swindler, Conspirator, Farming Village, JackOfAllTrades, Throne Room, Inn, Mandarin, Adventurer
I get the 5/2, which is sort of manifestly worse here, I think. Should just be a Jack game. Again, there IS an engine here with Conspirators and Inns and Throne Rooms, but without +buy or gainers, it just seems too slow to me. So I'm Jack/nothing to his Jack/Swindler. I actually don't like the Swindler here against Jack. And then he ends up going for the engine anyway, which delights me. Well, maybe I underestimated it. What he CAN do is definitely Province every other turn (on the other turns, he buys Inn to set himself up). And he Swindles a bunch of my Silvers into Masterpieces, which is quite bad. But, I have enough of a lead that all he can do is take the tie.

Again, was doubting on going big money, but saw Swindler and Masterpiece on the board. Reducing your Silvers to masterpieces and then the engine (Inn - Jack - Conspirator) seemed plausible. I pulled it off a bit too late (bought an Inn when there were no actions in the deck - yuck).

Quote
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1377972078694.txt
Poor House, Apothecary, Mining Village, Rats, Remake, Apprentice, Baker, Counting House, Outpost, Hoard
I see Remake, but then I see that Poor House obsoletes it here. Well, there's Rats, but is Remake/Rates really a thing? I think not. Then I notice Apprentice, and Apprentice/Rats is definitely a thing. The Baker token makes it sort of interesting, what order to do what. The presence of Shelters makes an opening Apprentice a little less appealing. I go for that anyway. He opens Baker instead. Yeah, Baker is pretty good, I've found. I spike an early $6 and grab Hoard--Gold trashing with Hoard and Apprentice is really nice. My Rats come a little unevenly, but soon I have it under control and my deck is going nicely. He has a bunch of Bakers, and that's good, too, but what I am doing is just a tad better. I play my last three turns very cautiously, taking Duchies instead of risky trashes, because I assume he can't Province-Province (he is too reliant on Baker tokens). That works out, I trash my Hoard, and win.

Well the rats - apprentice engine was quite clear, but where to get the extra money from ? That's why I went for the baker. You were more than right to go for the hoard. The engine was soaring, also due to an "error" of my part - my two apprentices decided to trash my two remaining rats, leaving me a bit helpless.

All in all, like I said, very happy with the games.

Two sidenotes :

* For once, Goko decided that it would give out the starting player as it should (last time I had to restart games 7 times).
* We both forgot half the time to put VPON :)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 10:03:51 pm by TheMirrorMan »
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StrongRhino

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2013, 07:56:58 pm »
0

Kirian, whats the policy on freezes? My game just froze, said opponent has connection troubles. I'm afraid I'll time out because it was going into my turn.
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blueblimp

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #56 on: August 31, 2013, 08:59:24 pm »
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Kirian, whats the policy on freezes? My game just froze, said opponent has connection troubles. I'm afraid I'll time out because it was going into my turn.
Note for onlookers: we ended up replaying the game. (It was early on in the game, so the outcome was uncertain. I was maybe a little behind.)
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2013, 12:47:39 am »
+4

Replaying is probably the best thing for a freeze, anyway; it's reasonably safe to assume that no one here is going to try to scam their way into the top of the tournament by DCing multiple times in multiple rounds, especially since abuse would be reasonably obvious (game logs) and would get that person smacked by me.
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zporiri

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2013, 01:12:01 am »
+1

3.5 zporiri - beyond awesome 1.5


30 zporiri - beyond awesome 29
i feel like he has the best strategy here, but lost due to some misplays (like twice forgetting to leave something to discard for his tactician). i went for ironmonger+margrave+vault and he smartly added tactician to his since you can get virtual money from vault, something i completely overlooked til i saw him do it and by then it was too late. i wasnt paying too much attention in this game when one of my friends told me she had just lead her friend to Jesus (woohoo!) and i needed to debrief the experience with her, and beyond awesome very kindly agreed to finish the series on a later day (thanks again beyond awesome!). i was lucky to win this one.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130827/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1377660898124.txt

27 zporiri - beyond awesome 27
i played a hermit(for trashing and silver flooding) and embassy big money here, because i thought the board had no +buy. but there was salvager...awkward...anyways, it was so quick that even though my opponent started to get a really good engine going, he was probably one turn off from being able to pull off a win and had to settle for a tie.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1378007039333.txt

33 zporiri - beyond awesome 48
this one wasn't really that close, and i'm not sure why. i don't think i understand bandit camp very well yet. i didnt want to get a village that gets you a delayed gold when there wasnt an engine to be had, but his bandit camps (and spoils) seemed to work wonderfully for him. ill need to review this one a little more to figure out why my strategy was so much worse.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1378007437327.txt

31 zporiri - beyond awesome 29
i get the lucky 5/2 on a mountebank board here. typically in mountebank or witch games, i get two cursers and play big money for the most part. i notice my opponent immediately tries to go for a herald engine, with remodel as the only trashing. the only way to do that is for him to get A LOT of heralds. so i let him go uncontested, knowing he will run out that pile and that curses will run out soon. i green very very quickly so he cant get anything going, and with the edge in points and no +buy, he has to green as well to keep up with me, which ruins his deck, and which i have prepared for by getting harems for money and points, and draining out the great halls.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1378007945601.txt

39 zporiri - beyond awesome 31
a close game that couldve gone either way at the end. he had a chance to break PPR (which he correctly chooses not to, as i wouldve won on the next turn), but when he gets a duchy and i only get an estate, he then gets a chance to win. eventually i end up getting the last province to win. my opponent goes for mercenary with a couple of caravans and markets. i ignore mercenary, thinking that the forced trashing will eat up my deck with this board, which is eventually his downfall as he only had two gold, 1 mercenary, 1 market for money and lots of VPs that he cant trash. i instead went for remake with a couple caravans and tribute which worked great, and a single expand which comes in handy at the end.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1378008591260.txt

thanks to beyond awesome for the great games, and for being so flexible. i had like 5 hours of free time this week, and had to reschedule after game 1, and beyond awesome was a great sport about playing during my limited times. thanks again, and im sorry i had to ditch after game 1 earlier in the week!
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blueblimp

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #59 on: September 01, 2013, 03:40:05 am »
0

Replaying is probably the best thing for a freeze, anyway; it's reasonably safe to assume that no one here is going to try to scam their way into the top of the tournament by DCing multiple times in multiple rounds, especially since abuse would be reasonably obvious (game logs) and would get that person smacked by me.
I dunno, sometimes the game may be all but decided when a freeze happens, and in that case it seems best to give it to the likely winner. I figure in most cases the players will be able to agree on a reasonable action, but if not then posting the log for opinions might be the best way to proceed.
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2013, 11:24:43 am »
0

Replaying is probably the best thing for a freeze, anyway; it's reasonably safe to assume that no one here is going to try to scam their way into the top of the tournament by DCing multiple times in multiple rounds, especially since abuse would be reasonably obvious (game logs) and would get that person smacked by me.
I dunno, sometimes the game may be all but decided when a freeze happens, and in that case it seems best to give it to the likely winner. I figure in most cases the players will be able to agree on a reasonable action, but if not then posting the log for opinions might be the best way to proceed.

This is certainly true.  But it hasn't happened yet in several years of Isodom and Gokodom.  That's some 10000 games.  And with quite literally nothing at stake, I'm just not that worried.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2013, 03:36:26 pm »
+1

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1377970180115.txt
Courtyard, Lighthouse, Warehouse, Navigator, Spy, Wandering Minstrel, Golem, Library, Venture, Nobles
I lose this game, but I would play it exactly the same if we did this set again. The engine just looks so weak to me without +buy or gaining, and Venture should be pretty good for the Courtyard BM play. Well, I never got a Venture, just because I never hit $5 until Duchy time, but I don't think that's such a big deal. Hate to blame shuffle luck, but all my good cards clumped at the end of my last shuffle, and that allowed him to go Province-Province-Province. Maybe you guys can tell me if I am wrong, and the engine is actually better?

I agree with your assessment that the engine lacking +buy shouldn't be good enough. But I don't quite agree with your assessment of Courtyard BM. First, Venture doesn't really help at all, despite it being very good for other terminal draw BM strategies. You might think it's better for Courtyard since you can put green on top and draw through it, but that's not all that compelling, since you give up the ability to save money for next turn. And your not hitting 5 is not a freak occurrence. Courtyard is a good BM card because it makes you not hit 5 that often. You shape into 6s, 8s, and 3-4s. So having something good at 5 doesn't really help.

Also, I think your big tactical mistake was buying the third Courtyard. You don't have enough Gold in your deck to want a third Courtyard. You end up just drawing an extra one every turn and putting it back. Wouldn't it be nicer to have some actual money you could keep? By forcing yourself the return a Courtyard every turn, you lose out on the ability to use the card return to reshape you money. You're basically just getting 6-card hands every turn instead of getting effectively 8 and 4.
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2013, 03:54:58 pm »
0

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1377970180115.txt
Courtyard, Lighthouse, Warehouse, Navigator, Spy, Wandering Minstrel, Golem, Library, Venture, Nobles
I lose this game, but I would play it exactly the same if we did this set again. The engine just looks so weak to me without +buy or gaining, and Venture should be pretty good for the Courtyard BM play. Well, I never got a Venture, just because I never hit $5 until Duchy time, but I don't think that's such a big deal. Hate to blame shuffle luck, but all my good cards clumped at the end of my last shuffle, and that allowed him to go Province-Province-Province. Maybe you guys can tell me if I am wrong, and the engine is actually better?

I agree with your assessment that the engine lacking +buy shouldn't be good enough. But I don't quite agree with your assessment of Courtyard BM. First, Venture doesn't really help at all, despite it being very good for other terminal draw BM strategies. You might think it's better for Courtyard since you can put green on top and draw through it, but that's not all that compelling, since you give up the ability to save money for next turn. And your not hitting 5 is not a freak occurrence. Courtyard is a good BM card because it makes you not hit 5 that often. You shape into 6s, 8s, and 3-4s. So having something good at 5 doesn't really help.

Also, I think your big tactical mistake was buying the third Courtyard. You don't have enough Gold in your deck to want a third Courtyard. You end up just drawing an extra one every turn and putting it back. Wouldn't it be nicer to have some actual money you could keep? By forcing yourself the return a Courtyard every turn, you lose out on the ability to use the card return to reshape you money. You're basically just getting 6-card hands every turn instead of getting effectively 8 and 4.

I was thinking that since Courtyard can put Courtyard back, you would overbuy them more than you would other BM draw cards. But perhaps I'm wrong.
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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2013, 04:23:18 pm »
0

^You can. I mean you get the second one sooner, and can possibly get a 3rd if you have to go for a longer build-up based on your opponent's engine (or if you hit exactly $2). But collisions are still bad, and you don't want 3 Courtyards in a 15-card deck. If your extra Courtyard on turn 12 or 13 is a Silver instead, you buy a Province.
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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2013, 04:28:56 pm »
0

I was thinking about writing an article at one time about an entirely new topic, overworking your Dominion cards. This is a case in point where the kingdom suggests you can all sorts of clever cards back top of your deck with the courtyard but in reality you can only put one card back on top each turn. As soon as you overbuy courtyards (or buy ventures) you might find yourself unable to some expected courtyard benefits such as treasure smoothing. It can only deliver one benefit each turn. Unfortunately overworking your Dominion cards is a very theoretical topic, with few clear examples, so it's not an easy topic for practical advice.
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2013, 04:48:04 pm »
+2

Rabid 3-0 Kirian

So, going up against Rabid, a top-20 player, I was fully expecting to be crushed in 3 games and maybe half an hour.  Instead we had one game that was basically decided by player order (this from Rabid himself!), one nail-biter, and one tricky game that came down to PPR.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1378063270631.txt

This was one of the most boring boards I've ever played.  Trader-BM, with some other stuff of little consequence.  Hindsight shows that I actually had two chances to win--but both times I was stuck behind PPR and didn't know what Rabid was holding.  As Rabid said in chat, this was really P1's game to lose.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1378065823715.txt

This was an absolute nail-biter.  I lost the game and the match, but I was able to make a top-tier player think long and hard about many of his purchases.  This board has everything an engine player wants, including Vault-GM.  I win the GM split thanks in part to Navigator (no, really, stop laughing), and I decide to go green probably earlier than I should have, rather than building a mega-turn engine.  Rabid builds a very solid engine, but my initial greening forces him to back off of waiting to run the board, as I threaten to three-pile.  The last four turns took something like 20 minutes here as we both were forced to think about scores.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1378066837726.txt

I figure that I have to take the long-shot, being down 2-0 and up against a far superior player... so I open Death Cart/Chapel.  And do you know, Platinum on T7 and T9 feels really good, and I'm very nearly able to convert this to a win... but Rabid builds up with $5s, including Soothsayer, which puts me behind PPR and slows me down with Curses.

----

So yeah, I'm happy with the outcome, given I was expecting to barely be able to put up a fight, as all three games were close.  Good luck in the rest of the tourney, Rabid!
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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2013, 05:06:35 pm »
+2

pst defeats mail-mi 3-1
I'd say all of these were pretty close and pretty fun.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.50e20cf4e4b0a47150882831.1378066336214.txt
mail-mi 1-0
Lots of top-of-the-deck stuff. We both go for mystics, and I get a lucky hand in the end to pull off the win.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.50e20cf4e4b0a47150882831.1378067180675.txt
pst 1-1
We both open 5/2 with mountebank/fools gold, although I'm the only one to ever get more than 1 FG, then we transition into a margrave/fishing village engine, and I add in a few festivals.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.50e20cf4e4b0a47150882831.1378067955908.txt
pst 1-2
pst starts right off the bat going for Alchemists, while I open with taxman to hopefully deter his buying power. Another mirror match, but would opening potion have been better in this circumstance?

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.50e20cf4e4b0a47150882831.1378069136816.txt
pst 1-3
Young witch vs. Familiar. He gets a 5/2 which I thought wouldn't be the best for this board, but he still gets the win.

Good match, pst! I wish you luck in the rest of the tourney!
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Rabid

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2013, 05:29:38 pm »
+1

Rabid 3-0 Kirian

So, going up against Rabid, a top-20 player, I was fully expecting to be crushed in 3 games and maybe half an hour.  Instead we had one game that was basically decided by player order (this from Rabid himself!), one nail-biter, and one tricky game that came down to PPR.

Thanks for the match, hosting and running the event, definitely much much closer than the score would indicate.


http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1378063270631.txt

This was one of the most boring boards I've ever played.  Trader-BM, with some other stuff of little consequence.  Hindsight shows that I actually had two chances to win--but both times I was stuck behind PPR and didn't know what Rabid was holding.  As Rabid said in chat, this was really P1's game to lose.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1378065823715.txt
Terrible board, I think my mint buy put me a bit ahead, (3c 24s 0g, vs 7c 14s 1g).
But this was such a dry board was basically going to be shuffle luck.

This was an absolute nail-biter.  I lost the game and the match, but I was able to make a top-tier player think long and hard about many of his purchases.  This board has everything an engine player wants, including Vault-GM.  I win the GM split thanks in part to Navigator (no, really, stop laughing), and I decide to go green probably earlier than I should have, rather than building a mega-turn engine.  Rabid builds a very solid engine, but my initial greening forces him to back off of waiting to run the board, as I threaten to three-pile.  The last four turns took something like 20 minutes here as we both were forced to think about scores.

My lack of practice without point counter really shows here. (forgot to turn it on)
I could have won on turn 17, but forgot I already had 2 fairgrounds.
A very tricky board, Kirian won the GM split 7-3 so I was in real trouble.
I use the merchant guild to good effect on the last two turns, holding off on greening as long as I can.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1378066837726.txt

I figure that I have to take the long-shot, being down 2-0 and up against a far superior player... so I open Death Cart/Chapel.  And do you know, Platinum on T7 and T9 feels really good, and I'm very nearly able to convert this to a win... but Rabid builds up with $5s, including Soothsayer, which puts me behind PPR and slows me down with Curses.

Another tricky board, I was tempted to skip chapel here?
Not sure if Soothsayer helped me here or not.
Another really close game.

So yeah, I'm happy with the outcome, given I was expecting to barely be able to put up a fight, as all three games were close.  Good luck in the rest of the tourney, Rabid!

Yes really fun match thanks, good luck.
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yed

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2013, 05:29:51 pm »
+2

yed 3-1 shraeye

Lighthouse, Moat, Apothecary, Alchemist, Armory, Navigator, Cultist, Haggler, Grand Market, Expand
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1378062998893.txt
I think it was mistake to ignore Cultist and depend on Lighthouse only. Shraine was unlucky, once he had 3 lighthouses in hand but still sooner or later he would get all Ruins. I went for Expanding Cultist after Ruins was out. That helped in dealing with terminals in my deck. I wonder if straight Cultist Big money would be better that what I did.
yed 1-0 shraeye

Hamlet, Apothecary, Market Square, Menagerie, Spice Merchant, Laboratory, Stash, Vault, Wharf, Forge
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1378064216852.txt
Wharf,Hamlet engine. I think Vault was mistake here. I got my economy from Spiece Mechant + Market Square and I could have bought more engine components than shraeye.
yed 2-0 shraeye


Moat, Alchemist, Advisor, Thief, Young Witch, Council Room, Ghost Ship, Rebuild, Torturer, Vault, Possession
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1378065201495.txt
Rebuild mirror. I made an error in buying 3rd Rebuild instead of Duchy. I think that here was possibility in going for Possession and exploit Rebuild weakness for it.
yed 2-1 shraeye

Market Square, Storeroom, Thief, Young Witch, City, Festival, Highway, Hunting Party, Mine, Pillage, Upgrade, Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, Curse
Bane card: Market Square
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1378066212969.txt
I was quite lucky here. Still Upgrade should be the first 5. Piling out Market Squares helped for 3 pile ending and economy in golds.


Thank you shrayne for the match.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 05:31:04 pm by yed »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2013, 01:15:19 am »
+2

First of all, my hat's off to Loppo, who was just a really great opponent in getting things set up despite bad time zone problems, waiting around when Goko wasn't liking my connection on Firefox (don't know why that suddenly happened >:( ), and just generally being very nice to play against. Second, videos are all up on youtube. Okay, on to the games.

WanderingWinder 3-1 Loppo

Game 1: 1-0 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1378057385735.txt
Probably the obvious thing is HP/Mountebank, but neither of us really go for that. I don't think it's the best thing against Mountebank, plus Ironmonger is really good. So I load up on those, mainly playing a money-based strategy with ironmongers, planning to pick up HP with the 3rd $5, but preferring gold. Loppo goes for Scrying Pool, and it seems like he skips my important cards way too often, and with as much of the deck as he's skipping and my inability to attack him as much as I would like, he seems to be doing really well. But eventually luck turns against him and my money gets a spurt and comes through. I am not sure which luck is more indicative of what 'should' have been - his good luck early, or mine late - but it's probably somewhere in between. What do you guys think is best here?

Quote
Game 2: 2-0 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1378058567155.txt

This was a very nice, tense game, where he gets knights going faster and I move more into an engine. I feel like he hits cards of mine, particularly key ones, way more often than he should, but maybe this is a perception bias. Anyway, we are close coming down the stretch, dancing between 'they just barely can't three pile me and have me lose' while still needing to build a bit. But then he has an atrocious misclick which blows things out, though I do find a nice little pile-out sequence to seal it totally shut. And worse, he *probably* had it, too, as he needs 7+ buys with enough money, but he is most likely drawing his deck with enough money...

Quote
Game 3: 2-1 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1378059490991.txt
Lots of great 5s, duchy/duke, embargo. Cellar does a lot for me. And I think early on I am doing quite well, as cellar and stables are coming together well, he has seemingly wasted time embargoing dukes inconsequentially, etc. But I get a couple of nightmare 4-stables-and-4-green kind of messes, and his deck comes together nicely. I'm really not sure quite what went so wrong so fast. But he gets leads on provinces AND duchies, and I am totally locked out.

Quote
Game 4: 3-1 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1378060700688.txt
Young Witch/Tunnel with lighthouse pane. I think he gets fairly unlucky early on with lighthouses not doing him so many favors, and his spice merchant can't ever get him the 2 lighthouses he wanted, if I'm not mistaken. But I sort of like the more YW early, don't care about the SM much at all, and so I do like what I did a bit here. Also helps my eventual gardens, which is what puts it totally out of reach.

Robz888

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2013, 01:39:16 am »
+2

First of all, my hat's off to Loppo, who was just a really great opponent in getting things set up despite bad time zone problems, waiting around when Goko wasn't liking my connection on Firefox (don't know why that suddenly happened >:( ), and just generally being very nice to play against. Second, videos are all up on youtube. Okay, on to the games.

I did watch all the videos, so, some thoughts.

Game 1) I think everyone consistently understimates how powerful Spy-type attacks are against money decks, and money decks with a few key cards. Your early issues were a combination of that, and him get a little lucky, and then it sort of snowballed where you hadn't given him enough Curses + Coppers early enough (that early block of his really hurt) and he's doing the Spy-type attack, and you're getting bad luck. I may have taken a Hunting Party instead of your second Mountebank. I certainly wouldn't have taken the HPs later, but you didn't either. Your thing is probably better on average than his, but maybe it's closer than it would seem. I think just Ironmonger is so good, you can get lots of them with SP and have it work out, or get lots of them with a more money type thing and it ends up close--but it's really the IMs doing the work.

Game 2) I do actually like his plan better here. To a point, he definitely should have hit your Fortresses more often, but I don't think you had enough of them to really expect that. I actually thought he should have taken more Knights from the get-go--and you should have, too!--because they can just eat the whole deck alive here. That misclick was agonizing.

Game 3) I thought he played poorly (well, not really poorly, but the second Embargo was definitely a misplay), but things fell apart for you when you bought your first Lookout. I mean, one of them was I think fine for you at that point, not worth it, but not actively damaging. Then you get like a million more and of course your Stables-type deck is going to have problems then. I think an almost equally big thing is that Caravan is not all that good for your deck, and in fact inferior to Silver, just because of the Stables. I get in theory what you were thinking, but, Cellar is not Warehouse, sadly. Also, Procession made sense, but is in fact a way worse card than I initially thought.

Game 4) Yep, you just outplay him here. Spice Merchant just not a good purchase here, with the eventual Gardens pivot. I actually thought you got sub-optimal YW/Tunnel luck, and still did him in comfortably.
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loppo

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2013, 02:52:44 am »
+2

thx Wandering Winder for your kind words. I enjoyed our games (well the end of game 2 not so much...)

game 1: I have been on the receiving end so many times by Scrying pool that i tend to go for it more often than i probably should. I think here it may be to slow. they started well, but then the deck fell apart. I couldn't get the +buy in fast enough and in the end the engine never took off. With expert play SP might be the better strategie, but it's very hard to play it correctly. I think i get to many non-action cards into the deck (like smuggled golds) to make it work.

game 2: this is the best game of the series. A very tense game. My 5/2 start put WW at the ropes early with hitting key cards early. Then he finds Sir Michael and turns the table. My deck gets eaten alive, but i have 2 plats as a safe heaven. And then this missclick happens. AARRGHH. I'm still pissed of by this I tried to calculate how to end on piles this turn, as i felt this would be my last turn with a working deck, but it was not to be.

Game 3) I thought he played poorly (well, not really poorly, but the second Embargo was definitely a misplay),

game 3: I still consider WW as the grandfather of Duchy/Duke play. His article on it is still THE source of information. So i wanted to lock him out ot this option with double embargoing it. Why do you consider the second embargo there a mistake? There wasn't really anything else i wanted to embargo more than duke.

Game 4) Yep, you just outplay him here. Spice Merchant just not a good purchase here, with the eventual Gardens pivot. I actually thought you got sub-optimal YW/Tunnel luck, and still did him in comfortably.

game 4: I got the Spice merchant to thin my deck a little bit, so that i can eventually connect YW/Tunnel easier, while getting full protection from the lighthouses. It didn't work out. i get my first connection turn 13, which is way to late. so it was a bad idea i guess.

side note: this awful missclick game2 put me on tilt for most of game 3+4. That's no excuse, WW played better overall. Lesson to learn: plan ahead before you play your cards, not while you are playing them.
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2013, 03:06:05 am »
0

Game 3) I thought he played poorly (well, not really poorly, but the second Embargo was definitely a misplay),

game 3: I still consider WW as the grandfather of Duchy/Duke play. His article on it is still THE source of information. So i wanted to lock him out ot this option with double embargoing it. Why do you consider the second embargo there a mistake? There wasn't really anything else i wanted to embargo more than duke.


Because I don't actually think the double Embargo would have deterred him if that's what he had ended up going for, or at least not so much beyond a single Embargo, and as it turned out, you ended up in a better position to turn for Dukes than he was. Certainly, Embargo whatever you want on that first one, but you didn't need to buy another at all. It wasn't as if WW was clearly going for Duke and you were doing something else. So I think it was a clear overreaction.
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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2013, 08:15:44 am »
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Quote
Game 2: 2-0 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130901/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1378058567155.txt

This was a very nice, tense game, where he gets knights going faster and I move more into an engine. I feel like he hits cards of mine, particularly key ones, way more often than he should, but maybe this is a perception bias. Anyway, we are close coming down the stretch, dancing between 'they just barely can't three pile me and have me lose' while still needing to build a bit. But then he has an atrocious misclick which blows things out, though I do find a nice little pile-out sequence to seal it totally shut. And worse, he *probably* had it, too, as he needs 7+ buys with enough money, but he is most likely drawing his deck with enough money...

At least during your last turn and possibly at other moments too, you rapidly played your Fortresses with the Altar already in hand and only started wondering what to trash after you had played all your Fortresses and drawn your deck. Chopping the Copper obviously worked out fine so it wouldn't have mattered in this case, but you seemed entirely unaware of the possibility to Altar the Fortress and I think you should at least consider the option.

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2013, 08:21:14 am »
+1

Yeah, so I think my reputation helped me out a good bit in game 3, apparently. The thing is, it's almost always the objectively wrong play to get embargo so early (except on $2), because... well, let's look at why you are buying the embargo. It's because you are trying to change the strategic landscape. The reason to do that is to make the position you're in the strategically superior one, compared to your opponent. But that only works if you are in a better position for the new-strategic-best-thing than your opponent is. And if you are just buying embargoes so early, you are usually not doing anything that puts you in that kind of a position. So ok, if he is doing this because "I'm the duke guy", I am happy, because I think I am good enough to be able to do the other strategy and transition off. But especially here, since I wasn't planning on going duke anyway, really, or at least not something that was dependent on dukes.
The thing is, it's not so much that it WAS the second embargo, it's that it wasn't something else - you bought it with $3.

But let's go back to game 2. I know during the game I really felt it was bad luck - and really, yes, I underestimate the spy attack, I am sure. And I am sure there is some perception bias, I notice every little thing that goes wrong for me. I *still* think I got somewhat unlucky, but okay, maybe this is 40% luck, and even if I did get unlucky, okay, so what, this doesn't mean his strategy wasn't better than mine anyway. I am not sure whether it was or not. But the thing is, I find more and more with the knights that 'buy all the knights first to try to eat their deck and make sure yours doesn't get eaten, do other stuff later' is actually not all that good of a strategy - you generally want to build your engine first, and THEN maybe attack them. Maybe I'm wrong with that, but it's the conclusion I am more and more coming towards.

And certainly I played the ending badly here, on my penultimate turn, since he should have been able to end the game - I needed to get some points. But then, I suppose I am pretty close to lost anyway, probably. So I was in more of a hole than I thought.
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