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Author Topic: Asper's Cards  (Read 97337 times)

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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1100 on: May 07, 2018, 01:52:39 pm »
+1

Was going to comment, but canít seem to find Mountain village in the OP, what does it currently do?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1101 on: May 07, 2018, 02:56:07 pm »
0

Was going to comment, but canít seem to find Mountain village in the OP, what does it currently do?

He he ^^
I don't know what it is today... First I confuse Outpost with Lookout, and now I'm confusing my own Cliffside Village with a card that probably somebody else made... ;D

Cliffside Village is a Village for 5$ that also allows you to trash a card. Sorry for this. I forgot my own card name ^^'

Shows that I haven't played Dominion in ages.

Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1102 on: May 08, 2018, 11:48:50 am »
+1

Was going to comment, but canít seem to find Mountain village in the OP, what does it currently do?

He he ^^
I don't know what it is today... First I confuse Outpost with Lookout, and now I'm confusing my own Cliffside Village with a card that probably somebody else made... ;D

Cliffside Village is a Village for 5$ that also allows you to trash a card. Sorry for this. I forgot my own card name ^^'

Shows that I haven't played Dominion in ages.

It's much worse when you do this while playing a game of Dominion!

So I looked back to when you first posted Cliffside Village (btw I love the idea of people throwing things off a cliff as trashing) it didn't seem to get much feedback apart from that it was "boring" (Simple? Boring? Depends on how you look at it?) I did notice that you proposed this as a potential fix:
Cliffside Village, 5$, Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one:
+1 Action;
Trash a card from your hand
Did you ever try this? I understand that it somewhat eliminates the charm of how simple the original is and on on-gain penalty would still preserve the simple on-play effect but it does seem like a fairly appealing change to me. With this version you'd have to be more careful about adding terminals to your deck early if you're planning on Cliffside being your only source of +Action so it makes for more interesting decisions? Or it forces you to add other Villages to your deck so you're not spending those gains on other cards like you could if you were using the original version, if that makes any sense?

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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1103 on: May 09, 2018, 11:13:44 am »
+1

Hi Gazbag,

I never tried it, although now that you mention it it seems like a fine fix. It seems more bland than an on-gain bonus at first glance, but probably leads to interesting decisions still. (EDIT: Actually probably more interesting than when-gain).
That said, I will test it against some on-gain options simply because I like player interaction and positive interaction between players. It speeds the game up and suits the multiplayer IRL games that my (recently rare) Dominion sessions usually are.

Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1104 on: May 09, 2018, 02:03:04 pm »
+1

Hey!
That sounds like a fair assessment, it's kind of hard to say which on-gain looks like the best fit without playing any games with them. I do usually prefer an on-gain drawback to an on-play one though. I'd be up for some testing games in about a month or so when I'm not quite so busy with things if you're interested.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1105 on: May 09, 2018, 04:41:09 pm »
+1

I decided to add an interactive clause to Mountain (er, I mean Cliffside) Village to have it be better balanced. My considerations were giving the other players a coin token on gain (much too strong) or letting them trash a card on gain (already has been there). Also I thought about allowing them to gain a cheaper card (reverse Border Village) or allowing to discard cards to draw cards (either on gain or play, but on play seemed too slow, also it was there already). And then I thought about allowing them to gain a Copper in hand, which they'll probably just use to buy another copy, trashing the Copper later... Maybe allow them to discard two cards to put a Silver in hand on gain? That bonus combos much more poorly with other Mountain (Cliffside!) Villages, as you can sift junk away and Silver isn't the worst card ever to have in your deck. Only problem is it kind of was there already, but it has a nice theme.

Any ideas? Is there one you guys like?
Personally I like the Silver one and the gaining of cheaper cards most right now, although both have some special implications I'm not sure I like that much...

I think trashing a card is too good for others. Gaining a silver to hand, discarding two cards, is arguably better than Explorer early on, since you only end up with one less card in hand than with Explorer, but it doesnít cost an Action. I donít think the Copper one would ever be taken, aside from weird boards. A free 4$ of their choice also seems like too much, maybe if they had to discard two cards for it. Is Cliffside village really *that* strong at 5$?

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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1106 on: May 09, 2018, 05:05:57 pm »
+1

Is Cliffside village really *that* strong at 5$?
I think it is. At the first glance Junk Dealer looks stronger: Peddler is better than Village, especially when you trash early and run into economy problems. But in the later part of the game you might need a Village more and unlike Junk Dealer Cliffside Village can still be played when you are perfectly thin. Something that is of similar strength as Junk Dealer is definitely a powerhouse. Whether it warrants a nerf is a different question.

One simple Nocturnish (Blessed Village / Fool) idea would be: When you gain this, discard the top Boon. Each other player may (discard a card to) receive that Boon.
There is a 1/6 chance this does nothing (Field, Forest) and Sky is also not the greatest Boon to get when it is not your turn.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1107 on: May 10, 2018, 04:29:20 am »
0

Is Cliffside village really *that* strong at 5$?
I think it is. At the first glance Junk Dealer looks stronger: Peddler is better than Village, especially when you trash early and run into economy problems. But in the later part of the game you might need a Village more and unlike Junk Dealer Cliffside Village can still be played when you are perfectly thin. Something that is of similar strength as Junk Dealer is definitely a powerhouse. Whether it warrants a nerf is a different question.

One simple Nocturnish (Blessed Village / Fool) idea would be: When you gain this, discard the top Boon. Each other player may (discard a card to) receive that Boon.
There is a 1/6 chance this does nothing (Field, Forest) and Sky is also not the greatest Boon to get when it is not your turn.

I considered Boons for a brief time, but I really don't like them. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1108 on: May 10, 2018, 04:40:04 am »
0

I decided to add an interactive clause to Mountain (er, I mean Cliffside) Village to have it be better balanced. My considerations were giving the other players a coin token on gain (much too strong) or letting them trash a card on gain (already has been there). Also I thought about allowing them to gain a cheaper card (reverse Border Village) or allowing to discard cards to draw cards (either on gain or play, but on play seemed too slow, also it was there already). And then I thought about allowing them to gain a Copper in hand, which they'll probably just use to buy another copy, trashing the Copper later... Maybe allow them to discard two cards to put a Silver in hand on gain? That bonus combos much more poorly with other Mountain (Cliffside!) Villages, as you can sift junk away and Silver isn't the worst card ever to have in your deck. Only problem is it kind of was there already, but it has a nice theme.

Any ideas? Is there one you guys like?
Personally I like the Silver one and the gaining of cheaper cards most right now, although both have some special implications I'm not sure I like that much...

I think trashing a card is too good for others. Gaining a silver to hand, discarding two cards, is arguably better than Explorer early on, since you only end up with one less card in hand than with Explorer, but it doesnít cost an Action. I donít think the Copper one would ever be taken, aside from weird boards. A free 4$ of their choice also seems like too much, maybe if they had to discard two cards for it. Is Cliffside village really *that* strong at 5$?

Hum, I kind of assumed everyone with 4$ in hand would take the Copper in hand. After all, it's easy to get rid of it again once you have that Cliffside Village.

Personally I originally thought it was fine - after all unlike Junk Dealer, the additional Action isn't all that valuable early on. Gazbag insists it's too good. He's a better player than me and I decided that nerfing it a tiny bit couldn't hurt it enough to make it actively bad, while also potentially making it less bland. Two birds with one stone, eh? Unless you prefer that simple elegance. Tbh I believe a Cliffside Village could just as well stay as it is in the respect that it creates interesting strategies even if it is OP strong. I mean, it enables great engines, but doesn't do that much itself. But a little extra doesn't hurt and possibly makes it more fun for people who like things slightly more exciting and/or even.

Hey!
That sounds like a fair assessment, it's kind of hard to say which on-gain looks like the best fit without playing any games with them. I do usually prefer an on-gain drawback to an on-play one though. I'd be up for some testing games in about a month or so when I'm not quite so busy with things if you're interested.
Cool, I'm looking forward to it  :D

Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1109 on: May 10, 2018, 01:43:43 pm »
+1

I think Clifftop Village is in a position where it could be quite a bit weaker and it would still be strong. I do think it can stand to be this powerful though, as a trashing+Village card it'll never dominate in a scripted way like e.g. Rebuild can, it's just a very efficient card imo. But some kind of nerf should make the game play more diverse and fun I think.

I don't think there's much disagreement about it being a strong card, but maybe it's also worth mentioning that trashing and village are quite synergistic which I do think is quite significant here.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1110 on: May 10, 2018, 02:24:25 pm »
+1

The problem is that you rarely want to pay 5$ for your villages. So the first two or so are really good buys, but afterwards you are paying a lot to enable your engine, assuming there are no other villages around.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1111 on: May 10, 2018, 02:30:55 pm »
+2

The problem is that you rarely want to pay 5$ for your villages. So the first two or so are really good buys, but afterwards you are paying a lot to enable your engine, assuming there are no other villages around.

That's a big assumption, though. If there are other villages around, Clifftop Village is a no-brainer, since it's a cantrip trasher that also functions as a village, and then remains a village afterward. Junk Dealer doesn't turn into a Peddler once you're done with it, and it's one of the strongest $5 cards in the game.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1112 on: May 10, 2018, 02:55:28 pm »
+1

Yes and you have absolutely no reason to buy Junk Dealer when you're done with it, so even though $5 for a Village is overpriced it's still better than nothing.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1113 on: May 10, 2018, 03:59:30 pm »
+2

The problem is that you rarely want to pay 5$ for your villages. So the first two or so are really good buys, but afterwards you are paying a lot to enable your engine, assuming there are no other villages around.

That's a big assumption, though. If there are other villages around, Clifftop Village is a no-brainer, since it's a cantrip trasher that also functions as a village, and then remains a village afterward. Junk Dealer doesn't turn into a Peddler once you're done with it, and it's one of the strongest $5 cards in the game.

The difference is that the village part (of Cliffsde) is doing nothing at the beginning of the game, while the Peddler part (of Junk Dealer) is doing something. At the beginning of the game, Cliffside village is just a barely better 5$ ratcatcher.

Donít get me wrong, I am not arguing that Cliffside shouldnít cost 5$, I am arguing that I donít think it needs an extra cost/disadvantage on gain.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1114 on: May 12, 2018, 04:37:22 am »
+1

To me, it's like this: I mostly believe that Cliffside Village is fine as is. However, some people think it's too strong and some people think it's too bland. Adding some small (!) Disadvantage is an attempt to please these people.

Alternatively, I could add a setup clause that changes the game in a way which makes Cliffside Village less relevant without harming the card itself. Like "each player puts their plan token on (some base card pile like Gold)." or "each player replaces a starting Estate (or Shelter of their choice) with a Copper."

That would be more gentle as a nerf, simply because it makes getting this trasher slightly less useful (and more accessible). If none of these is satisfying, well, I'm fine with it being Village-Chapel.

Asper

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Asper's dice game prototype wants YOU!
« Reply #1115 on: May 28, 2018, 10:37:47 am »
0

Cheerio, dear forumites.

As some of you might already know, I have started working on my own board game a few months ago - a silly, light dice game called "Dinner Party".
While I made good progress in the past, right now I'm hitting a wall, and what I need is some honest feedback to help me see where I want to go from here. I'll probably open up a thread on BGG and some other places too (suggestions on how/where to do that are more than welcome), but as you guys have always been incredibly helpful, I hope you won't hold it against me if I ask here, too. So:

If anybody wants to try my neat prototype on Tabletop Simulator and give some feedback (whatever level) in the next weeks, I'd be terribly grateful.

We're not talking weekly hour-long play sessions here, just a quick game or two (play time is about half an hour). Just be aware that, unlike my Dominion cards, this game doesn't have the comfort of sitting in a well-established system where I'm just adding content, so it may be a bit rough around the edges. On the other hand, this is why any level of feedback is very much appreciated, from elaborate analysis to "my guts don't like this".

Sadly, there's not much I can offer in return, but I'm all ears for any suggestions on how I can pay you back. If the game ever becomes more than just a fantasy, I'll make sure to print your names into whatever rules thing comes with it, but that goes without saying IMO.

pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1116 on: May 28, 2018, 06:15:07 pm »
+1

Any way to get a hold of the rules? I donít have tabletop simulator. I probably wonít be able to playtest it, but can give some thoughts.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1117 on: May 29, 2018, 02:56:46 am »
0

Any way to get a hold of the rules? I donít have tabletop simulator. I probably wonít be able to playtest it, but can give some thoughts.

Sure, just let me go over them before I send them to you. Thanks!

Kudasai

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1118 on: June 12, 2018, 07:41:51 pm »
+1

Hello Asper!

I was going through some old Dominion notebooks and found this Village concept. I thought I'd share in case you're still looking for possible alternatives for Cliffside Village. It slows the trashing down a bit so you might even be able to price it at $4 Coin.


« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 07:52:51 pm by Kudasai »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1119 on: June 13, 2018, 01:32:27 pm »
0

Hello Asper!

I was going through some old Dominion notebooks and found this Village concept. I thought I'd share in case you're still looking for possible alternatives for Cliffside Village. It slows the trashing down a bit so you might even be able to price it at $4 Coin.



Hey, thanks for the suggestion!  :)
I still haven't figured out a satisfying fix for Cliffside Village, which is largely due to not having the time and energy to work on Dominion fan cards, recently. So I appreciate the input.

Personally I don't really like cards that punish you for not using up all your buys, actions or other resources, though. The main reason for this is that when you have unused resources, you already suffered a disadvantage: You wasted part of your potential. And punishing players for that adds insult to injury in my book, which is why I prefer cards that instead reward you for not using (or perhaps rather "trade") resources.

A second reason for that is that, in general, I think cards with a payoff are more interesting than cards that make you want something you already want harder - as is the case with spending and generating resources effeciently.

Such a tradeoff card would be Gazbag's suggestion of a simple "choose one", but of course there's a wide variety of options here.

Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1120 on: June 14, 2018, 06:32:22 am »
+1

I don't percive Kudasai's idea to be about punishing. It is rather a buff of your version that lets you choose between the trashing and the extra Action. Now the the choice is delayed, it comes at the end of your turn when you have potentially drawn more cards and thus have a larger selection of junk to trash from.
I think that it is the best idea to make Cliffside Village feel less vanillaish. I would keep the price of $5 though, $4 would be too cheap for a cantrip trasher and this is better.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1121 on: June 14, 2018, 11:07:29 am »
0

I don't percive Kudasai's idea to be about punishing. It is rather a buff of your version that lets you choose between the trashing and the extra Action. Now the the choice is delayed, it comes at the end of your turn when you have potentially drawn more cards and thus have a larger selection of junk to trash from.
I think that it is the best idea to make Cliffside Village feel less vanillaish. I would keep the price of $5 though, $4 would be too cheap for a cantrip trasher and this is better.

Kudasai's version lets me trash if I did use the Action, though, not when I did not use it. This isn't Walled Village, where you might choose to not use the Action in order to do something else. It's the opposite - it allows you to trash only if you used the Action. Gazbag's suggestion was "Village OR Cantrip trasher". This is "Cantrip OR Village-Trasher". You never want the cantrip, you always want the trashing Village. No decision involved, just an all-or-nothing bet.

Edit: Thinking about it, I believe you just missed the "no" on the card? Sure, a delayed version would work. It's a legitimate option.

Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1122 on: June 15, 2018, 03:10:51 am »
+1

I don't percive Kudasai's idea to be about punishing. It is rather a buff of your version that lets you choose between the trashing and the extra Action. Now the the choice is delayed, it comes at the end of your turn when you have potentially drawn more cards and thus have a larger selection of junk to trash from.
I think that it is the best idea to make Cliffside Village feel less vanillaish. I would keep the price of $5 though, $4 would be too cheap for a cantrip trasher and this is better.

Kudasai's version lets me trash if I did use the Action, though, not when I did not use it. This isn't Walled Village, where you might choose to not use the Action in order to do something else. It's the opposite - it allows you to trash only if you used the Action. Gazbag's suggestion was "Village OR Cantrip trasher". This is "Cantrip OR Village-Trasher". You never want the cantrip, you always want the trashing Village. No decision involved, just an all-or-nothing bet.

Edit: Thinking about it, I believe you just missed the "no" on the card? Sure, a delayed version would work. It's a legitimate option.
Yeah, I totally read over the no. Now it is a totally different card, a village that rewards you for not doing what you usually want to do (at least in an ordinary draw engine): slightly over-villaging.

I still like it but it doesn't have much to do with Cliffside Village. As I said, I also like the Walled Village version without the no but it is not an automatic nerf: as the trashing comes Sauna-style after the drawing if you are lucky or play well you can use every copy of the card for trashing. Not necessarily but it can happen.

So it depends on whether you wanna nerf Cliffside Village or make it more interesting.
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