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Author Topic: Asper's Cards  (Read 323239 times)

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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1025 on: January 20, 2018, 02:20:12 pm »
0

Now you can play a card and remodel it on the same turn. You can play a Gold and use the coins from the Gold to remodel it into a province, with $1 left over, and it's non-terminal. Seems way too good compared to Salvager and Remodel.

It's good for Gold, and yes, I thought about the comparison to Remodel there. On the other hand, you can't trash Estates at all.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1026 on: January 20, 2018, 06:02:34 pm »
+1

Not being able to trash Estates is a hefty downside for sure, but it can trash Coppers much better than Salvager and is non-terminal. It can also trash itself like a super Death Cart or something, but if that's problematic it's easy to fix. It might be okay as is though, it doesn't seem like a great early buy any more - apart from the self-trashing.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1027 on: January 20, 2018, 09:27:08 pm »
+1

I feel pretty dumb for not thinking of this version before... It now can't trash Estates anymore, but can instead use the money of cards it trashes. I have absolutely no idea whether it's still too strong. Probably it is...?



I like this. The only comparison I can think of is to Bonfire, and it's quite different. The idea of putting the produced by a card into the upgrade itself is neat.
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Jeebus

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1028 on: January 21, 2018, 01:09:45 am »
+1

Removing "you may" will probably make it more balanced considering that it costs $4 and is non-terminal. It's a very cool idea though, kind of a mix of Salvager and Procession.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1029 on: January 21, 2018, 08:08:27 am »
0

Not being able to trash Estates is a hefty downside for sure, but it can trash Coppers much better than Salvager and is non-terminal. It can also trash itself like a super Death Cart or something, but if that's problematic it's easy to fix. It might be okay as is though, it doesn't seem like a great early buy any more - apart from the self-trashing.

Good point about the self-trashing. I think I will remove that.



Hm... Should I care about or exclude Durations? That'll be yet another nerf in case people are worried.

I kind of dislike the idea of removing the "you may", because to inexperienced players spending the 1$ of a Copper to "trick the card" might seem a bit unintuitive.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1030 on: January 21, 2018, 08:11:04 am »
+1

Convert needs wording to avoid tracking issues with Durations.

Notes:
- Cannot trash Estates
- Grants no inherent increment to the cost of the card
- Cannot Convert to cheaper cards
- Is a stop card (since it is a Night card)
+ Tempo-trash Coppers
+ Trashes cards played
+ "Non-terminal" (since it is a Night card)
+ Can Expand cards, or better (at a cost)
+ Can Convert itself
Losing Estate trashing is a huge weakness (though I think a major benefit in differentiating it from the similar Butcher), so I would not worry for Convert overpowering its peers. I suspect Convert's ability to target itself will be a huge boon to it.

I think its tempo-trashing and its inability to gain cards cheaper than the ones it trashes are both weird features. The card would be more intuitive if the gain was mandatory and "up to" the amount.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1031 on: January 21, 2018, 08:25:00 am »
+3

I like Fragasnap's suggestion.

If I make it both mandatory and "up to" there is no "card tricking", and it should also shift the card a bit from being a nonterminal Copper trasher to being a Remodel variant, which was the original intention. Therefore:

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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1032 on: January 22, 2018, 12:19:07 pm »
0

Somebody outlined to me today that Copper trashing is still perfectly possible with this as long as you forego your buy (you instead upgrade the Copper into what you would have bought). It's not the same if you play several Transforms or have too little money to buy anything, but it still feels kind of like tricking the card again. So perhaps I'll go back to "you may". "Up to" still seems fine. I guess I could cost it at five if necessary. It could even give a coin you can only use to upgrade stuff in this case, but I'd rather be careful here.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1033 on: January 22, 2018, 01:41:26 pm »
+1

I assumed that Copper trashing was intentional. It seems worse than Monastery at Copper trashing, but maybe it's too much given the other applications of the card.
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Jeebus

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1034 on: January 22, 2018, 01:51:33 pm »
+1

I don't see any "card tricking" in the current version. Butcher does the exact same thing (just with coin tokens instead of coins).

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1035 on: January 22, 2018, 04:15:10 pm »
0

I don't see any "card tricking" in the current version. Butcher does the exact same thing (just with coin tokens instead of coins).

I on the other hand don't see how it is any similar to Butcher... The thing was that the card said "if you trash, you must gain", but you can avoid having to gain a cheap card as a replacement for Copper by just using the money you would have normally spent buying a card on the Remodelling instead, which makes the mandatoryness obsolete. You can't trick Butcher this way, because if you have e.g. 3$ and then play Butcher, you can't remodel a Copper into a 5$. You can remodel it into a 2$ and have 3$ to spend, or buy the 5$ and keep the Copper (or replace it with another 0$). Convert DOES allow you to both get the 5$ and remove the Copper from your deck, as you can use the same amount you could have used to buy a card.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1036 on: January 22, 2018, 04:20:24 pm »
+2

I'm not sure what you mean by "card tricking"... you mean using it in a way other than what the designer (you) intended? I don't see any issue with the ability to turn a Copper into a when it also costs you your buy for the turn. If you made the gain "may", then you have a weird stupid decision to make between buying a and gaining nothing when you trash the Copper, or buying nothing and gaining a when you trash the Copper. Just force them to do the latter if they want the . Unless it turns out that the ability to trash Copper is too strong; (which it probably won't be if it can't trash Estates or Curses), then I don't the problem.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1037 on: January 22, 2018, 06:24:13 pm »
+1

I'm not sure what you mean by "card tricking"... you mean using it in a way other than what the designer (you) intended? I don't see any issue with the ability to turn a Copper into a when it also costs you your buy for the turn. If you made the gain "may", then you have a weird stupid decision to make between buying a and gaining nothing when you trash the Copper, or buying nothing and gaining a when you trash the Copper. Just force them to do the latter if they want the . Unless it turns out that the ability to trash Copper is too strong; (which it probably won't be if it can't trash Estates or Curses), then I don't the problem.

No, it's really not about whether I do or not do want the card to trash Coppers. I just don't want players to think "Aha, this is mandatory", when they can circumvent that. Why even make the wording act as if it was mandatory when it isn't? And it's not costing you your buy, it's actually netting you a buy, if you will. And then, if the Copper-replacing isn't actually mandatory (in the basic cases), I don't want to put a puzzle into the player's way to figure out how they can make that work. It's hard to put this in words, but I'd prefer if reading the card matched the way you can play it. I think the puzzle is much weirder than just allowing both ways to achieve the same thing. It's not like "do I play Copper or Silver first" is a stupid decision only because both options do the same thing. It's not a decision at all, because who cares, and at least that's how I feel about this. I feel this forces people to care about something just because I want them to care, when I could just let them do it their way. I mean, there's still a lot to think about and consider as soon as you don't want to spend all your money on the same card, which I feel is the more interesting case, either way. I wonder how often it'll just be either a nonterminal Copper trasher or a nonterminal Salvager that plays the card, though. Maybe the card has too many applications.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1038 on: January 22, 2018, 06:33:06 pm »
+1

No, it's really not about whether I do or not do want the card to trash Coppers. I just don't want players to think "Aha, this is mandatory", when they can circumvent that.
It matters when you have multiple Converts since only the first Convert can Convert your Copper into the thing you wanted to buy. Since different Converts can target each other, I imagine that acquiring multiple Converts will be optimal.
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Jeebus

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1039 on: January 22, 2018, 10:44:39 pm »
+1

No, it's really not about whether I do or not do want the card to trash Coppers. I just don't want players to think "Aha, this is mandatory", when they can circumvent that. Why even make the wording act as if it was mandatory when it isn't?

This is why I compared it to Butcher. If you trash a Copper with Butcher, you have to gain a card. If you have coin tokens from before, you can use them to gain a card costing more than $2 (or it might be that a $2-cost is fine). I don't see any difference, rules-wise, between this and Convert letting you get rid of the Copper by paying coins. Either you have coins enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. With Buther, either you have coin tokens enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. And the coins/coin tokens you use can't then be used for your buy.

Yes, this situation will be more common for Convert, but it's certainly not unusual for Butcher.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 10:48:23 pm by Jeebus »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1040 on: January 23, 2018, 02:19:40 am »
0

No, it's really not about whether I do or not do want the card to trash Coppers. I just don't want players to think "Aha, this is mandatory", when they can circumvent that. Why even make the wording act as if it was mandatory when it isn't?

This is why I compared it to Butcher. If you trash a Copper with Butcher, you have to gain a card. If you have coin tokens from before, you can use them to gain a card costing more than $2 (or it might be that a $2-cost is fine). I don't see any difference, rules-wise, between this and Convert letting you get rid of the Copper by paying coins. Either you have coins enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. With Buther, either you have coin tokens enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. And the coins/coin tokens you use can't then be used for your buy.

Yes, this situation will be more common for Convert, but it's certainly not unusual for Butcher.

My point is that for Convert the question "can I transform the Copper intto card X" and "Can I buy card X" are equal (in the base case of having enough money and only one Convert, as I already stated). This is not the case for Butcher.

I am kind of surprised so many people disagree with me here, so I'll have to reconsider where we get to different conclusions. Admittedly I don't see it yet, but my experience tells me there's something I'm missing.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 02:22:08 am by Asper »
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1041 on: January 23, 2018, 02:53:45 am »
+2

No, it's really not about whether I do or not do want the card to trash Coppers. I just don't want players to think "Aha, this is mandatory", when they can circumvent that. Why even make the wording act as if it was mandatory when it isn't?

This is why I compared it to Butcher. If you trash a Copper with Butcher, you have to gain a card. If you have coin tokens from before, you can use them to gain a card costing more than $2 (or it might be that a $2-cost is fine). I don't see any difference, rules-wise, between this and Convert letting you get rid of the Copper by paying coins. Either you have coins enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. With Buther, either you have coin tokens enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. And the coins/coin tokens you use can't then be used for your buy.

Yes, this situation will be more common for Convert, but it's certainly not unusual for Butcher.

My point is that for Convert the question "can I transform the Copper intto card X" and "Can I buy card X" are equal (in the base case of having enough money and only one Convert, as I already stated). This is not the case for Butcher.

I am kind of surprised so many people disagree with me here, so I'll have to reconsider where we get to different conclusions. Admittedly I don't see it yet, but my experience tells me there's something I'm missing.

I understand where you're coming from on this. I'm not sure that I agree that trashing Coppers into something using your money is a hidden puzzle like you seem to be describing it as though. I mean you're trashing a card and spending your money to gain one, it's exactly what the card says to do and with this trashing from Play, Copper is probably the first thing you think of when you're deciding whether to buy one of these during the opening. It seems more obvious to me than say that you can return zero cards to Ambassador and still give out cards (this is more a problem with Ambassador though tbh). Adding a "you may"  to it increases word count, which I like to avoid where possible and can also lead to weird things like spending all your money and then declining to gain - which is probably harmless, but is still strange.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1042 on: January 23, 2018, 08:42:46 am »
0

No, it's really not about whether I do or not do want the card to trash Coppers. I just don't want players to think "Aha, this is mandatory", when they can circumvent that. Why even make the wording act as if it was mandatory when it isn't?

This is why I compared it to Butcher. If you trash a Copper with Butcher, you have to gain a card. If you have coin tokens from before, you can use them to gain a card costing more than $2 (or it might be that a $2-cost is fine). I don't see any difference, rules-wise, between this and Convert letting you get rid of the Copper by paying coins. Either you have coins enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. With Buther, either you have coin tokens enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. And the coins/coin tokens you use can't then be used for your buy.

Yes, this situation will be more common for Convert, but it's certainly not unusual for Butcher.

My point is that for Convert the question "can I transform the Copper intto card X" and "Can I buy card X" are equal (in the base case of having enough money and only one Convert, as I already stated). This is not the case for Butcher.

I am kind of surprised so many people disagree with me here, so I'll have to reconsider where we get to different conclusions. Admittedly I don't see it yet, but my experience tells me there's something I'm missing.

I understand where you're coming from on this. I'm not sure that I agree that trashing Coppers into something using your money is a hidden puzzle like you seem to be describing it as though. I mean you're trashing a card and spending your money to gain one, it's exactly what the card says to do and with this trashing from Play, Copper is probably the first thing you think of when you're deciding whether to buy one of these during the opening. It seems more obvious to me than say that you can return zero cards to Ambassador and still give out cards (this is more a problem with Ambassador though tbh). Adding a "you may"  to it increases word count, which I like to avoid where possible and can also lead to weird things like spending all your money and then declining to gain - which is probably harmless, but is still strange.

I think I see your point, but as the card (base case) isn't mandatory, I feel that while it increases the word count to spell this out it actually decreases complexity. Maybe I need to ask someone less versed in Dominion about this, e.g. "Do you think this can be used to get rid of Coppers easily?". Maybe I'm imagining it much less obvious than it is. I can just say, I didn't see it at first. And, well, I guess you can spend money on nothing. I don't see that being an issue on an actual card, though. I guess online it would make for rather unenjoyable misclicks, but that's nothing that'll ever matter. And in the end, whether you do or don't spend the money, it's not like it'll be worth anything in your Night phase either way.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1043 on: January 23, 2018, 03:14:04 pm »
+2

Ok, now I'm having trouble seeing how this isn't just a non-terminal Salvager that trashes cards in play rather than from hand. The difference between buying and gaining in this case seems meaningless. If that is what it is; then it's probably much stronger than Salvager... although Salvager can trash Estates, and has some nice end-game tricks with Provinces also, the ability to trash treasures and actions that you've already played; as well as being a Night card instead of an Action, sound much more powerful.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 06:23:58 pm by GendoIkari »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1044 on: January 23, 2018, 08:56:29 pm »
0

Hum... Alright, I guess I'll try to think about this again. Maybe I can use the "pay to get something" mechanic for something else, where I don't run into such proximity to existing cards in the first place.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1045 on: January 24, 2018, 11:22:30 am »
+3

I don't think it's too much like Salvager. Not being able to trash Estates is an enormous difference (and makes Convert much weaker).

I'm not saying Convert is definitely balanced at $4, but I wouldn't give up on it due to its similarities to Salvager. They're just not very similar.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1046 on: January 25, 2018, 11:59:20 am »
+1

I don't think it's too much like Salvager. Not being able to trash Estates is an enormous difference (and makes Convert much weaker).

I'm not saying Convert is definitely balanced at $4, but I wouldn't give up on it due to its similarities to Salvager. They're just not very similar.

Yeah I don't necessarily think it's too much like Salvager to be worth having. Just that in this case, "gain a card" happens to work almost exactly the same as "+1 buy" due to the ability to choose how much money you spend on your buy vs how much money you save for the gain. Of course, as a Night card, it can't be +1 buy instead. And if it were an action, it couldn't trash treasures. It could be a treasure with +1 buy instead though.

*Edit* Basically, the main difference between "+, +1 buy" and "gain a card costing up to " has always been that the +1 buy is stronger because it allows you to combine that with other you have, or split it up however you want. Convert uses the "gain a card" language, but functions a lot more like +1 buy.

So I would probably suggest this card with does 95% the same thing:

Convert - Treasure -

+1 buy
When you play this, trash a card you have in play.
+ per it costs.

The only real difference is that this version can't trash Night cards. (And whatever other things come with it being a Treasure vs a Night card).
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 12:19:09 pm by GendoIkari »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1047 on: January 25, 2018, 02:05:26 pm »
+1

The only real difference is that this version can't trash Night cards. (And whatever other things come with it being a Treasure vs a Night card).

And it can trash itself, which is potentially crazy.

But also, I think the Night version has easier tracking.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1048 on: January 25, 2018, 11:16:15 pm »
0

Well, I guess "You could do this Night card as a Treasure worth 0$" goes for Changeling, Exorcist, Vampire, Bat, Werewolf and Cobbler, too. Of course a Treasure version also could be worded to keep it from trashing itself. Hum...

I thought about other things it could do. If it always just upgraded itself, it would be too similar to Changeling.
If it converted coins into draw (for next turn), it would be a duration-Storyteller.
If it just gained a card, it would be a nonterminal +buy.
If it just trashes a card from hand, it would be Salvager.

Other things I could do would be having it be a Scheme for several cards, a Scavanger for several cards, or a Remake for several cards. Like:
"Pay any amount of $. Per 1$ you paid, trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing (up to/exactly) 1$ more."
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1049 on: January 28, 2018, 07:34:25 pm »
+2

I saw this image while looking for something completely unrelated today and decided it needed to be on a Victory card named "Lair". Ah well. Maybe it should cost 6$ and give 3 VP.



The Tournament-Style states aren't as fun to do as I figured, but maybe my interest just grew cold. Also, a version of Assassin that uses a State ("Vengeful") which gives +1 Action when you play an Attack card died when it choked on too many words. De mortuis nihil nisi bene.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 07:35:39 pm by Asper »
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