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Author Topic: Asper's Cards  (Read 323183 times)

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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #700 on: January 26, 2017, 08:47:25 pm »
+2

Another fun fact that I'll say whether you care or not: Minister's art is actually by Patrick William Adam, which is based on Giovanni Battista Moroni's work a Portrait of Antonio Navagaro.
Thanks for this bit of info. It should be changed, I guess.

Also, yes, Inquisitor uses just 10 tokens. You could experiment with 12 or something like that, too. And finally, Hospital certainly isn't my best balanced card. You could add a trashing ability (on buy, for example) and cost it higher, make it a split pile with a Outpost-level trasher (although I dislike split piles, Carrier/Nightwatch being rather atypical), or something like that. Just nerfing it without otherwise changing the card seems bad to me.

Edit: Nurse, Action, $3
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck, trash the matches and discard the rest.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 08:54:36 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #701 on: February 02, 2017, 03:00:56 pm »
+1

I pondered about Sultan, and decided it belongs in the outtakes section. I just don't happen to find any suitable fix to make it anything but a good Gold gainer that requests you go for Provinces first. Meh. An idea was:

Quote
Sultan, 4$, Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a card to gain a Treasure costing up to 1$ more than it.

It's more expensive and allows gaining Silver for Estates or Gold for Duchies, but also to pseudo-Mint cash or put that second Smithy to good use. Hum. Maybe it would be more interesting if it was terminal?

I'm not sure whether I should also put Investor into outtakes. It just doesn't seem that interesting of a card. Either way, I went back to the old wording that just took both Debt and Coin Tokens. ThetaSigma's mockup made me realize the simplicity was worth mashing up expansion mechanics, after all.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 03:05:08 pm by Asper »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #702 on: February 02, 2017, 03:18:01 pm »
+1

Investor is a great card! If you think it's unbalanced, that's different. But if you just think that it's not interesting, I'd beg to differ.

For Sultan, what if it was a Treasure? It would need a rename but could it work as:
Quote
Treasure,

+
When you play this, you may discard a card, to gain a Treasure costing exactly more than it.
Maybe too good? I like the price of though, as you can turn Sultans into Golds and your spare smithies into Sultans. I think that DBnator's Offertory covers your Current Sultan's ground pretty well, although that may be too good. But that's a discussion for later.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #703 on: February 02, 2017, 07:43:32 pm »
+1

Investor is a great card! If you think it's unbalanced, that's different. But if you just think that it's not interesting, I'd beg to differ.

For Sultan, what if it was a Treasure? It would need a rename but could it work as:
Quote
Treasure,

+
When you play this, you may discard a card, to gain a Treasure costing exactly more than it.
Maybe too good? I like the price of though, as you can turn Sultans into Golds and your spare smithies into Sultans. I think that DBnator's Offertory covers your Current Sultan's ground pretty well, although that may be too good. But that's a discussion for later.

The main advantage would be that my version could do Estate to Silver and Duchy to Gold. And my main problem is that I don't know what exactly I want Sultan to do. It was born to interact with Harem, but it just goes to tell that creating a card to fit a name still isn't such a great idea.

And yes, the issue with Investor is mostly balance. I didn't have time to really test it yet, but I feel it might be off.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #704 on: February 03, 2017, 07:30:00 am »
0

For Investor, you should just play around with and the Coin tokens. Like maybe , 2 Coin tokens, and cost . There should be some configuration that works.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #705 on: February 03, 2017, 09:29:39 am »
0

Well, maybe it's not really balance that's the issue, either. I'm probably just not sure it's actually fun to play.
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weety4

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #706 on: February 03, 2017, 03:57:02 pm »
0

For Investor, you should just play around with and the Coin tokens. Like maybe , 2 Coin tokens, and cost . There should be some configuration that works.
I think that there are other parameters one can play around with besided the values.
You could also make the card a Reaction that triggers when you discard it from hand or play. Non-terminality makes it stronger and Clean-up discarding changes the timing, i.e. Investor doesn't "ruin" (conditional on you not spending the Coin tokens) your buy power for the current move but only for the next move.

"Coin-ification" respectively Capital in the other direction is definitely an interesting design space.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 03:59:20 pm by weety4 »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #707 on: February 10, 2017, 01:47:24 pm »
+3

So, I decided to make Investor a Treasure card to ramp it up a bit. Ta-dah!
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #708 on: February 10, 2017, 02:08:51 pm »
+1

Doesn't need the , see Charm.

It's better now, though, but I don't know how much.

EDIT: I see you moved Sultan to Outtakes, moved Extortioner from outtakes into your set, and changed Mage (formerly trickster) and Sorceress (formerly sorcerer). Anything else?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 02:47:07 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #709 on: February 10, 2017, 02:17:30 pm »
+2

Doesn't need the , see Charm.

It's better now though, but I don't know by how much.

Interesting, does this mean that we can expect the Horn of Plenty reprint to not have the ?
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #710 on: February 10, 2017, 02:19:55 pm »
+1

Doesn't need the , see Charm.

It's better now though, but I don't know by how much.

Interesting, does this mean that we can expect the Horn of Plenty reprint to not have the ?
Hmm, the ShuffleIT one doesn't according to the Seprix's card texts.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #711 on: February 10, 2017, 06:11:40 pm »
+1

Doesn't need the , see Charm.

It's better now, though, but I don't know how much.

EDIT: I see you moved Sultan to Outtakes, moved Extortioner from outtakes into your set, and changed Mage (formerly trickster) and Sorceress (formerly sorcerer). Anything else?

No, that's all. Except I added Mage in addition to Trickster, which is still there. I should probably also do a Spellcaster that attacks on gain and call it Warlock :P
I wouldn't like to change Investment's coin icon until I know they changed Horn of Plenty, too. Either way, as I said, consider these old-school prints.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 06:13:46 pm by Asper »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #712 on: February 11, 2017, 09:19:25 am »
+1

Apparently, HoP does have a large 0 on it in ShuffleIT, my bad. I wonder why it does and Charm doesn't?


EDIT: I like the old Investment better I decided. This one just seems too similar to Capital as a Treasure, and the Action version just seemed cooler. I think I'd like it costing , giving and 2 Tokens. But whatever.

Regarding Spellcasters, Trickster and Mage seem too similar.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 10:09:50 am by ThetaSigma12 »
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Gubump

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #713 on: February 11, 2017, 11:28:38 am »
+3

Apparently, HoP does have a large 0 on it in ShuffleIT, my bad. I wonder why it does and Charm doesn't?


EDIT: I like the old Investment better I decided. This one just seems too similar to Capital as a Treasure, and the Action version just seemed cooler. I think I'd like it costing , giving and 2 Tokens. But whatever.

Regarding Spellcasters, Trickster and Mage seem too similar.

I think that it's because Charm has an option of giving money, so they didn't add the big $0 so that it wouldn't give conflicting information.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #714 on: February 11, 2017, 02:35:11 pm »
+1

Apparently, HoP does have a large 0 on it in ShuffleIT, my bad. I wonder why it does and Charm doesn't?


EDIT: I like the old Investment better I decided. This one just seems too similar to Capital as a Treasure, and the Action version just seemed cooler. I think I'd like it costing , giving and 2 Tokens. But whatever.

Regarding Spellcasters, Trickster and Mage seem too similar.
I hear your points but must admit I don't agree to them. Especially not to Mage and Trickster. I considered letting you overpay for Mage to prepare a Spell, but honestly I think it might be stronger than Trickster as is. Try them out in a game, see if they play similar. I don't think they will. Especially with an inherently complex mechanic like Spells, where small differences get amplified fast, I believe less iss better to start from. I can still apply sprinkles later.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #715 on: February 11, 2017, 08:06:22 pm »
+1

"Coin Token + Debt" would be an interesting overpay effect.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #716 on: February 11, 2017, 09:29:27 pm »
+1

Well, I tried an Event that translated 2$ into a  coin token, and it was automatic. Your idea seems reasonable in that it makes gathering tokens more of a challenge. However, I'm not sure whether paying twice and having to use a specific kingdom card doesn't go a bit too far. Also, gaining both tokens at once is already not a trivial effect, and as overpay cards have both a play and overpay effect, I'm not sure whether it would be a bit too much for my tastes.

By the way I don't disagree that Investment as a Treasuse card is a bit similar to Capital, Theta. I just don't feel that Investment was better as a terminal Action. It makes it much harder to get it to work in an engine, so its main application to me seems to be slog games, or the trivial strategy of playing Investment and then amassing tokens until you can buy a few Provinces. Maybe that will be an okay working strategy, but it's also really boring. I'd rather balance it as a nonterminal card so the number of strategies it goes with is more broad, or perhaps it even demands a more interesting strategy to be played. So if Investment turns out too similar to Capital, I'd probably rather kill the card than revert back to terminal. I hope this is more insightful than when I just said "Nah!" before. Sorry for that, I was in a hurry. :)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 09:30:51 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #717 on: February 18, 2017, 02:59:50 pm »
+4

So, I originally wanted to post this in the "Very bad card ideas" thread.

Then I figured, maybe I can make this not quite a very bad idea? Probably something in this direction has already been done, but I'm not exactly sure. What I'm sure of is that I heard "Message in a Bottle" as a suggested card name before. So, if I stole one of you guys' idea, I'd be glad to learn about it - at the very least it feels like it's slightly familiar... Either way:



Remarks:
  • Yes, apparently there are a lot of artists out there who draw Messages in Bottles. Hooray. And yes, if this turns out to be a good idea, I'm going to credit them individually.
  • It might not be necessary to give the cards different names, but better save than sorry, right?
  • In case it wasn't clear, the pile can be shuffled without any change in functionality. Of course the story of our lonely little bottle making it over the ocean won't be told as well. Who's that lady finding it in the end? How did the letter change shape? Who's the poor shmuck who felt he had to throw 10 messages in the water? Where did he get those bottles from?
  • As the cards are never referenced (unlike with Knights or Castles) I don't think an extra type is necessary.
  • It might be reasonable to always have the card gained by the player to your left to avoid "political" decisions in who gets it. However I doubt the harm done would be extremely big, as you WANT the other player be able to play the card, not draw it dead in their terminal draw + Treasure deck. It actually reduces the influence of whom you sit next to, so maybe it's good this way?
  • If you read this, thank you for spending your time with my ramblings :-) I draw my hat to your kindness.
  • For a while I thought it would be funny to have it passed to a player's left right once it gets bought/played, making the message return to you after a while. Then I realized that in a 2 player game, the bottle will be passed back and forth, ideally drawing you 2 extra cards per turn of your opponent. In other words, it would scale inversely with the player count. Wasn't worth it.
  • Also, polygon art!
  • Edit: Of course you have to take the token on gain, not buy, and put it in another player's discard pile... D'oh!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 06:46:41 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #718 on: February 18, 2017, 06:54:58 pm »
0

Huh, maybe it should instead say "This is gained into another player of your choice's discard pile instead of yours, whereas you take Bottle Token #X."
That would implement the "no-visit" rule to make sure it doesn't get covered up, although Watchtower would still work (if you choose to do WT first).

Maybe "When you gain this, put it in another player's discard pile, and if you do, take Bottle Token #X."?

What's better?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #719 on: February 18, 2017, 07:08:23 pm »
0

I think I got it!  ;D



Edit: To clarify why I'm happy: This doesn't visit your discard pile (new Nomad Camp wording) and therefore can't be covered up. If you topdeck it with Watchtower or Travelling Fair, however, you also don't get the token. Also you can put it in another player's discard even if it's gained in your action phase, etc.

Edit 2: I guess it gets a bit weird with Inheritance (I buy an Estate and put it in your discard pile), but a lot of cards do. I can live with it.
FAQ: Estates put in my discard pile are my Estates, not Estates of the player who gained them.

Edit 3: Probably this is much too strong for 2$. After all, it's a Lab, even though it's not me who plays it. Maybe 4$ would be more appropriate? Just don't buy them on trash-for-benefit boards :P
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 10:32:01 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #720 on: February 19, 2017, 02:47:52 am »
+1

I don't think you need to worry about the no-visit rule, cf Nomad Camp, no?

2$ does seem cheap for its effect. 4$ might be ok. I have a feeling people will not like it though, getting their deck flooded with cards that help another player. I feel like the passing version would be better in that sense.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #721 on: February 19, 2017, 08:26:46 am »
0

Maybe it's too much like a directed attack when other players refuse to play it. Hum. The most relevant idea is that the tokens identify another player. Maybe I can do something different that uses the idea.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #722 on: February 19, 2017, 08:55:16 am »
+1

In the german forum, someone suggested this much simpler version which can do without tokens and different art:

Message in a Bottle, Action, 3$
+1 Card
+1 Action
The player to your right draws a card.
---
This is gained into the player to your left's discard pile.

Edit: Alternative:
Message in a Bottle, Action, 2$
+1 Card
+1 Action
The player to your right may gain a card costing up to 4$ that is not a Message in a Bottle.
---
This is gained into the player to your left's discard pile.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 09:32:37 am by Asper »
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trivialknot

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #723 on: February 19, 2017, 09:58:53 am »
+1

So, I actually tested a card similar to Message in a Bottle.  My card is somewhere on f.ds, but I'll just dig it out of my files.

Quote
Generous Gift, Action, $2
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
The player to your right may discard a card to draw a card.

When you gain this card, put it in the discard pile of a player of your choice.

First, I'll say that this was a really fun card. It led to passive-aggressive gift-giving battles, and they were just intrinsically fun.

Second, unfortunately there is some politics.  Receiving a gift usually hurts you, for several reasons: a) Cantrips on their own are often bad when there's sifting, and Generous Gift itself provides sifting b) Often you'd rather treat it as a dead card than give your opponent an extra card, and c) You might take the effort to trash the card.

My card has a few differences, and I don't mind if you borrow some or all of the ideas from it.  It gives +Buy, which somewhat offsets the disadvantage of receiving a Generous Gift, and enables you to retaliate with more Gifts.  It requires the player to your right to discard a card first, which moderates its strength (often you might just discard a Generous Gift).  The precise mechanics of gaining is different, although I don't know that it is better.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #724 on: February 19, 2017, 01:48:50 pm »
0

So, I actually tested a card similar to Message in a Bottle.  My card is somewhere on f.ds, but I'll just dig it out of my files.

Quote
Generous Gift, Action, $2
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
The player to your right may discard a card to draw a card.

When you gain this card, put it in the discard pile of a player of your choice.

First, I'll say that this was a really fun card. It led to passive-aggressive gift-giving battles, and they were just intrinsically fun.

Second, unfortunately there is some politics.  Receiving a gift usually hurts you, for several reasons: a) Cantrips on their own are often bad when there's sifting, and Generous Gift itself provides sifting b) Often you'd rather treat it as a dead card than give your opponent an extra card, and c) You might take the effort to trash the card.

My card has a few differences, and I don't mind if you borrow some or all of the ideas from it.  It gives +Buy, which somewhat offsets the disadvantage of receiving a Generous Gift, and enables you to retaliate with more Gifts.  It requires the player to your right to discard a card first, which moderates its strength (often you might just discard a Generous Gift).  The precise mechanics of gaining is different, although I don't know that it is better.

I feared I had seen it before...

The only real purpose of the (admittedly more complicated) Nomad Camp wording was to avoid scenarios where you use some obscure interaction to put the card in your deck AND take the token. Of course, there's no reason for this if the bonus always goes to the player to your right.

But the point about not playing the card to avoid letting another player draw a card is indeed a thing I worried about, myself. Maybe if the bonus is something more harmless, the "gifted" player won't mind it as much, like in the alternative described above?

I guess this card idea was twofold: First, tokens to connect players with individual copies of a card. Maybe I can make something out of this. Second, a card you put in another player's deck to get a bonus when it's played. This is exactly what your original idea is about, so I guess the current version of Message in a Bottle is just my take on your idea. It's a nice idea, though. Thank your for linking to your thread :)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 01:56:10 pm by Asper »
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