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Author Topic: Asper's Cards  (Read 323147 times)

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Deadlock39

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #550 on: September 01, 2016, 12:16:02 am »
+1

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.

I like Investor too. It isn't exciting, and is pretty similar in usage to Capital, but it is something that would definitely be useful on the right board, but doesn't seem like an automatic buy. Then again, maybe it is.  It shares some space with Tactician too I just realized.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #551 on: September 01, 2016, 12:28:11 am »
0

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.

I like Investor too. It isn't exciting, and is pretty similar in usage to Capital, but it is something that would definitely be useful on the right board, but doesn't seem like an automatic buy. Then again, maybe it is.  It shares some space with Tactician too I just realized.

I did not think much about investor. Actually the idea to give both tokens at once started as something i would give to other players as a drawback, but that seemed too complicated. The Tactician comparison is actually pretty good, i didn't consider that. About Capital, maybe it is a bit more similar than i thought. The order is different, but you will alternate spending money and paying off debt. Probably it's also much too strong for $4.
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tristan

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #552 on: September 01, 2016, 12:39:38 am »
0

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.
The reason that this Event would be more interesting at a cost of 1 or 2 is simply Bonfire. Bonfire is "terminal" and costs 3 and I cannot imagine a situation in which you would ever go for Bonfire in the presence of Blessing. So Blessing is overpowered and should cost 1 or 2.
The usual caveat is of course that if you want to emulate a rule change with a zero cost Event these balance and power considerations are moot.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #553 on: September 01, 2016, 01:00:27 am »
+1

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.

I like Investor too. It isn't exciting, and is pretty similar in usage to Capital, but it is something that would definitely be useful on the right board, but doesn't seem like an automatic buy. Then again, maybe it is.  It shares some space with Tactician too I just realized.

I did not think much about investor. Actually the idea to give both tokens at once started as something i would give to other players as a drawback, but that seemed too complicated. The Tactician comparison is actually pretty good, i didn't consider that. About Capital, maybe it is a bit more similar than i thought. The order is different, but you will alternate spending money and paying off debt. Probably it's also much too strong for $4.

One nice thing is that if it is too strong, it is probably easy to nerf by reducing the number of tokens it gives out.  If it is still too strong, you could even give like 3 debt/2 coin tokens.

Deadlock39

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #554 on: September 01, 2016, 01:02:13 am »
+1

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.
The reason that this Event would be more interesting at a cost of 1 or 2 is simply Bonfire. Bonfire is "terminal" and costs 3 and I cannot imagine a situation in which you would ever go for Bonfire in the presence of Blessing. So Blessing is overpowered and should cost 1 or 2.
The usual caveat is of course that if you want to emulate a rule change with a zero cost Event these balance and power considerations are moot.

I mean Blessing is only once per turn, so any situation where Bonfire is good move, you would probably still use it to trash even faster.

pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #555 on: September 01, 2016, 02:23:24 am »
+3

Ugh, i know, the name isn't that good. Who wants to read about a Scientist directly after reading about a Scholar, right? Either way:



What about making it give 1 Debt per scientist in play? And just keep it as a straight double lab. Maybe that would be enough to balance it out. I like cards with strong effects.



About the Event: This is another one from the "this was just too obvious not to try" fraction. Probably LastFootnote already experienced something similar and it was no fun in playtesting. If not, hooray, finally you can have a game where junkers and trashers are actually skippable. On the other hand, maybe it helps big money, who knows. We wouldn't like that, would we?

I kinda wish there were some cost associated to this. Borrow has one, for example, and so does Alms, etc. It doesn't have to be a coin cost. Maybe something like adding a "discard a card from your hand" before the trashing.
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tristan

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #556 on: September 01, 2016, 03:22:48 am »
0

Maybe something like adding a "discard a card from your hand" before the trashing.
It would have to be conditional though "Discard a card from your hand. If you did, trash a card from your hand.". Otherwise you could e.g. play all Treasures but 1 Copper and then trash the Copper from your hand without having to "pay" the discard cost.
I like the idea. Early on it could be cheaper than a coin cost of 1 as you'd still have junk to discard but as you quickly thin your deck with Blessing you will have to discard something better than Copper during the later part of the game which is not a big issue as trashing becomes weaker anyway.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 03:24:24 am by tristan »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #557 on: September 01, 2016, 03:29:14 am »
+1

Ugh, i know, the name isn't that good. Who wants to read about a Scientist directly after reading about a Scholar, right? Either way:


What about making it give 1 Debt per scientist in play? And just keep it as a straight double lab. Maybe that would be enough to balance it out. I like cards with strong effects.

I will certainly drop the money part, but somehow i am more attracted to the "small Lab" variant right now, because it might be easier to balance (and putting debt on both the cost and the effect seems a bit meh to me).

About the Event: This is another one from the "this was just too obvious not to try" fraction. Probably LastFootnote already experienced something similar and it was no fun in playtesting. If not, hooray, finally you can have a game where junkers and trashers are actually skippable. On the other hand, maybe it helps big money, who knows. We wouldn't like that, would we?

I kinda wish there were some cost associated to this. Borrow has one, for example, and so does Alms, etc. It doesn't have to be a coin cost. Maybe something like adding a "discard a card from your hand" before the trashing.

Well, i always considered Alms' effect to be a rule change along the lines of "You'll never have less than $4 this game" - not an Event tht said "get a free $4 under certain conditions". Borrow has a cost, that's true - i guess "you always have $1 more" didn't seem fun. Maybe it would have been, who knows. Delve is another one which costs absolutely nothing, and is still fine. The thing with Blessing is, it's not supposed to be an interesting decision whether you buy Blessing or not. The interesting decision is supposed to be what cards you go for on a Blessing board.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #558 on: September 01, 2016, 10:51:33 am »
+1

Maybe something like adding a "discard a card from your hand" before the trashing.
It would have to be conditional though "Discard a card from your hand. If you did, trash a card from your hand.". Otherwise you could e.g. play all Treasures but 1 Copper and then trash the Copper from your hand without having to "pay" the discard cost.
I like the idea. Early on it could be cheaper than a coin cost of 1 as you'd still have junk to discard but as you quickly thin your deck with Blessing you will have to discard something better than Copper during the later part of the game which is not a big issue as trashing becomes weaker anyway.

Well, the only way how you could fail to discard a card when instructed to would be if your hand is empty, and then you couldn't trash a card either way (provided discard happens before trash). I'll try Blessing as is first. If i find it affects the game in an unfun way, i might change or drop it. Right now i feel that "every turn, i can trash a card from my hand" is a nice and easy thing to remember, but which still has strong implications on the board.
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Limetime

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #559 on: September 01, 2016, 05:05:39 pm »
+1

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.
The reason that this Event would be more interesting at a cost of 1 or 2 is simply Bonfire. Bonfire is "terminal" and costs 3 and I cannot imagine a situation in which you would ever go for Bonfire in the presence of Blessing. So Blessing is overpowered and should cost 1 or 2.
The usual caveat is of course that if you want to emulate a rule change with a zero cost Event these balance and power considerations are moot.
Blessing isn't to overpowered. It takes at least ten turns to trash all your starting cards.
I would consider opening blessing, bonfire /silver variant on a three/four.
Another cool thing you could do is take off both the +buy and the once per turn part.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #560 on: September 01, 2016, 05:11:39 pm »
+1

To be honest, I always thought you would make Town/Road into a split pile once empires came out. Tribunal/Scholar does seem cool though.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #561 on: September 01, 2016, 05:23:38 pm »
0

To be honest, I always thought you would make Town/Road into a split pile once empires came out. Tribunal/Scholar does seem cool though.

Huh, it's not Tribunal. I think i once had a card called Tribunal that used that image.

I kind of like that you can go for Town just to get a Village, and that get Road for free. Road is really not such a power card. It does, however, go totally bananas with a +1 Action token - s that one can only be put on supply piles, i prefer the current version. Of course Champion does the same, but i am willing to accept that as it is only a slight increase of ludicrousness from town-less Champion. I rarely play with Champion, to be honest, because the Page line also contains Warrior, which i don't want to play with.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #562 on: September 01, 2016, 05:59:29 pm »
+1

To be honest, I always thought you would make Town/Road into a split pile once empires came out. Tribunal/Scholar does seem cool though.

Huh, it's not Tribunal. I think i once had a card called Tribunal that used that image.

I kind of like that you can go for Town just to get a Village, and that get Road for free. Road is really not such a power card. It does, however, go totally bananas with a +1 Action token - s that one can only be put on supply piles, i prefer the current version. Of course Champion does the same, but i am willing to accept that as it is only a slight increase of ludicrousness from town-less Champion. I rarely play with Champion, to be honest, because the Page line also contains Warrior, which i don't want to play with.
Oh yeah, it's Inquisition. I played a game or 2 with Tribunal though, so now that name is stuck.
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tristan

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #563 on: September 02, 2016, 12:50:35 am »
0

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.
The reason that this Event would be more interesting at a cost of 1 or 2 is simply Bonfire. Bonfire is "terminal" and costs 3 and I cannot imagine a situation in which you would ever go for Bonfire in the presence of Blessing. So Blessing is overpowered and should cost 1 or 2.
The usual caveat is of course that if you want to emulate a rule change with a zero cost Event these balance and power considerations are moot.
Blessing isn't to overpowered. It takes at least ten turns to trash all your starting cards.
Ten turns to start all your starting hands is incredibly quick. Only multi-trashers like Chapel or Remak can beat that but with cantrip trashers like Junk Dealer you usually need longer

It would be overpowered relative to Bonfire at a cost of 0 instead of 1 or 2 if it were intended to be an ordinary Event.
But as it is meant to be an Event that simulated a rule change power and balance considerations are moot.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #564 on: September 02, 2016, 02:35:06 am »
0

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.
The reason that this Event would be more interesting at a cost of 1 or 2 is simply Bonfire. Bonfire is "terminal" and costs 3 and I cannot imagine a situation in which you would ever go for Bonfire in the presence of Blessing. So Blessing is overpowered and should cost 1 or 2.
The usual caveat is of course that if you want to emulate a rule change with a zero cost Event these balance and power considerations are moot.
Blessing isn't to overpowered. It takes at least ten turns to trash all your starting cards.
Ten turns to start all your starting hands is incredibly quick. Only multi-trashers like Chapel or Remak can beat that but with cantrip trashers like Junk Dealer you usually need longer

It would be overpowered relative to Bonfire at a cost of 0 instead of 1 or 2 if it were intended to be an ordinary Event.
But as it is meant to be an Event that simulated a rule change power and balance considerations are moot.

It's not even Bonfire i would care about, to be honest. You can get Bonfire in addition to Blessing, and trashing 3 cards instead of 1 is a pretty huge boost. Plan is more of a loser here.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #565 on: September 02, 2016, 04:16:25 pm »
0

Another small remark about the cost of Blessing: If you have a 5 Coppers in hand, you can't both trash a Copper and buy a $5. So if the only junk you have in hand is Copper, Blessing at least has you choose whether you play or trash that. Having -$1 for 7 turns isn't the world, but it's not free.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #566 on: September 02, 2016, 04:23:40 pm »
+2

Another small remark about the cost of Blessing: If you have a 5 Coppers in hand, you can't both trash a Copper and buy a $5. So if the only junk you have in hand is Copper, Blessing at least has you choose whether you play or trash that. Having -$1 for 7 turns isn't the world, but it's not free.

I don't think Blessing makes sense as an event. It feels much more like a Landmark, except that Landmarks by convention always deal with VP. But it's more of just a rule change that exists for a given game, like Shelters or Colonies, than an event you should have to buy. ("During this game, each player may trash 1 card in their hand during each of their buy phases").

I guess the exception is Debt. But I don't know if it's a good thing that this becomes unavailable if you have Debt.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #567 on: September 02, 2016, 05:27:59 pm »
+3

Another small remark about the cost of Blessing: If you have a 5 Coppers in hand, you can't both trash a Copper and buy a $5. So if the only junk you have in hand is Copper, Blessing at least has you choose whether you play or trash that. Having -$1 for 7 turns isn't the world, but it's not free.

I don't think Blessing makes sense as an event. It feels much more like a Landmark, except that Landmarks by convention always deal with VP. But it's more of just a rule change that exists for a given game, like Shelters or Colonies, than an event you should have to buy. ("During this game, each player may trash 1 card in their hand during each of their buy phases").

I guess the exception is Debt. But I don't know if it's a good thing that this becomes unavailable if you have Debt.

Well, Alms and Advance are unavailable when you have Debt, too. Even Borrow is. Man, i have debt and can't borrow money, what's up with that? And Donald X himself has described Alms like this on the Wiki:
Quote
As you can see instead it is a more sane thing that just means, you're never doing worse than a $4.
To me this means, Alms is a rules change. Events can be rule changes. Some of my favourite Events are.

Now you can argue Alms doesn't give a buy, so it's basically skipping your card buy for an Event buy - it's not additional. And right, obviously at some point you're going to play with someone who buys a Silver and then remembers and says "Oh, and oops, i trash this card with Blessing". And then you'll have to decide whether you want to argue with him that he couldn't have done that, because he would have had to buy Blessing first to have that additional buy, etc.. Let's just say i don't take things like this serious enough to worry about them. If i did, i would have to make the rule change in non-Event form and probably invent a new type of card-shaped-thing. Instead i just assume that people either play for fun and accept Blessing to be basically a rule change, or that they will take the game serious and be fine with an Event that has an effect that approaches a rule change as long as the players don't forget to buy it first. Either way, neither is worth breaking it for me.

In the end, maybe it's really just that i don't share your opinion that "rule changes" wouldn't belong on events - as i mentioned, i think several official events are basically just that.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #568 on: September 02, 2016, 05:43:18 pm »
+2

All that said and done, like save, I think it gets even more interesting/difficult if it costs $1. Or, well <1>. Or: 'Trash a card. Gain <1> during clean up.' Or something.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #569 on: September 02, 2016, 06:50:28 pm »
0

All that said and done, like save, I think it gets even more interesting/difficult if it costs $1. Or, well <1>. Or: 'Trash a card. Gain <1> during clean up.' Or something.

I guess the problem here lies with the fact that i don't want it to be difficult. I want it to be free. I assume Save has to cost something for fun reasons. Maybe getting $7 and being able to buy Gold and topdeck Copper supports Big Money to an unfun extend, i don't know. Either way, i will of course consider alternatives if the Event should be boring (most likely i'll throw it away). However, as it has rather strong implications on the board and which decisions you make, either way, i don't think it adds anything when buying the Event itself is a conscious decision. In fact, the more you have to decide whether to get the Event, the less it's a rule change, and that implies it matters less for the board in general, which takes away part of the first kind of decision (which general strategy you go for). Also, if it costs something, it's only a small step to Blessing being just Bonfire II.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #570 on: September 02, 2016, 07:03:18 pm »
0

Let's consider Blessing at $1. How much does it cost me to trash a Copper with Blessing? Yes, $1, but don't forget that i didn't play the Copper. So, $2. But trashing Coppers with an overhead of $1, that's exactly what Bonfire does. Sure, there i can't trash Estates, and here i have to pay the overhead for every single Copper, not sets of two. But still, it's much too similar for me. Also i don't like the implication for the opening. Trash 2 Estates, have a $3 and a $2 turn? Yuk. Trash one Estate, have a $5 and a $1 turn? Nice. I prefer a variant that pushes the 3/4 opening instead, as that's quite often the worse one, either way.
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Limetime

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #571 on: September 02, 2016, 11:08:15 pm »
+2

Another cool thing you could do is take off both the +buy and the once per turn part.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #572 on: September 03, 2016, 12:19:57 am »
+6

I'm sorry i have to say this, but no. I don't want the event to be witty or requiring clever play. I don't want you to lose an additional $1, or have to decide between buying it or another card. I want it to be straightforward, in your face, no shennanigans, "you can trash a card per turn for free". And it will stay like this until i play it. And if i find that's no fun, well, i guess it wasn't a good idea.

We have trashers that cost something. Every trasher costs something. I want free trashing. We don't have free trashing yet. And trashing dominates. Junking dominates. Can you ever skip Witch? No, you can't. Can you ever skip Chapel? No, you can't. (I know this isn't actually true). Donald X himself has stated once that he wasn't aware how extremely strong cursing and trashing are, and that he might have thought about ways to "remedy" that if he had noticed in time. Well, we all know that Dominion is the way it is, and trashing and cursing just are that important.

The event is the attempt to open up another world of Dominion. Not to replace the old one, heavens no. Blessing won't be in many games. But when it's there, i want Dominion to be a game where you can a bit more often consider skipping Witch. A world where you can consider skipping Chapel. And i don't want this world to be available to only those that produce excess money, or those with excess cards, or those with excess buys. I want it for everyone.

If somebody plays a game with Blessing and says, "man, that's genuinely unfun", i'm all ears. But if the worst you can say is "Well, it played really different", then cool, because that's what it's about. Nobody minds Chapel being just "trash up to 4 cards". It's not "discard X, trash Y". Chapel isn't interesting. The games Chapel creates are.

I have made it "once per turn" to make sure neither trashing nor junking become really useless. You can still trash faster with Junk Dealer. You can still keep somebody busy using his Blessings for your Curses. But it's a different game now, and you don't have to "pull something off" to have that. That's how i want it. No "pulling it off".

I know i'm a lame guy who orders his pizza with just salami, even if he could have had additional ham for free. When i want a chocolate muffin and somebody puts sprinkles on it, i say "I would have mentioned if i had wanted sprinkles". If i want an event that trashes a card per turn for free, then that's what i want. I will gladly offer everybody the template to do their own version if they prefer it different. But this is my version. Let me have it without sprinkles.

Edit: Also, i really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings with this. But please try it out as is, or give me the time to do that, before changing it to be more clever. Please.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 12:30:06 am by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #573 on: September 03, 2016, 12:29:02 am »
0

Also, i realize i'm ungrateful posting things like above. I know you all are giving me feedback to help me improve my cards, not to spite me or pressure me into changing. And nobody's paying you to do that, either. So thank you, sincerely.

Edited because staying awake until 10 in the morning doesn't improve your writing skills...
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 04:04:56 am by Asper »
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tristan

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #574 on: September 03, 2016, 01:04:56 am »
+1

Another small remark about the cost of Blessing: If you have a 5 Coppers in hand, you can't both trash a Copper and buy a $5. So if the only junk you have in hand is Copper, Blessing at least has you choose whether you play or trash that. Having -$1 for 7 turns isn't the world, but it's not free.

I don't think Blessing makes sense as an event.
Delve is also an Event that simulates a rule change and as you pointed out, Landmarks are not global permaevents but global permaevents that relate to VPs so you cannot implement a rule change via Landmarks.


Let's consider Blessing at $1. How much does it cost me to trash a Copper with Blessing? Yes, $1, but don't forget that i didn't play the Copper. So, $2. But trashing Coppers with an overhead of $1, that's exactly what Bonfire does. Sure, there i can't trash Estates, and here i have to pay the overhead for every single Copper, not sets of two. But still, it's much too similar for me. Also i don't like the implication for the opening. Trash 2 Estates, have a $3 and a $2 turn? Yuk. Trash one Estate, have a $5 and a $1 turn? Nice. I prefer a variant that pushes the 3/4 opening instead, as that's quite often the worse one, either way.
Great analysis. I totally agree with you now that you should test this Event at a cost of zero.


I'm sorry i have to say this, but no. I don't want the event to be witty or requiring clever play. I don't want you to lose an additional $1, or have to decide between buying it or another card. I want it to be straightforward, in your face, no shennanigans, "you can trash a card per turn for free". And it will stay like this until i play it. And if i find that's no fun, well, i guess it wasn't a good idea.
I think this is partly influenced by game design philosophy. Do you want your game to be complex due to rule and play complexity (e.g. wargames or basically anything from 'What's your Game') or complex in spite of simple rules (Knizia, Kramer, abstracts like Chess)?
In general I am agnostic about this but in the case of DOminion I lean more towards complex cards while being very well aware that more often than not simpler cards achieve much more in terms of making the game more complex.
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