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Author Topic: Asper's Cards  (Read 323353 times)

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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #900 on: August 19, 2017, 02:43:45 pm »
+2

It just occured to me that I can only use the "play this again" wording if Assassin uses the token.

By the way, I'm especially grateful for feedback that will help me decide which version to print. Of course I could also do TTS tests, but I don't have any play partners for that right now.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #901 on: September 02, 2017, 06:19:39 pm »
+3

I just read through all of these cards and I found it thoroughly enjoyable.                                                                                                                                                         Seriously, everyone should give some respect to asper.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #902 on: September 07, 2017, 03:59:59 pm »
+1

I recently started considering this under-the-line effect for a simple Season card to replace Mistress, but couldn't think of a nice upper half to go with it. My idea was that a pile that removes itself from the game completely at some point would be interesting for 3-piling, and so I figured such a card should be able to pick up cards and help control the 3-pile. LastFootnote also recently remarked that he felt Adventurer could cost 2$, and his reasoning convinced me it was true. My card still needed a buy for 3-piling and be cheap enough to pick up early, but I figured a cost of 3$ or 4$ for Buydventurer would be fine. I went with the more conservative option for now, as you can see... Given that the Adventurer effect benefits from a well-prepared deck, there's also a slight downside in that you need to get this by turn 10 latest, which technically means this card is not strictly better than Adventurer.



Edit: Lumbermen it is.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 05:23:12 pm by Asper »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #903 on: September 07, 2017, 04:10:12 pm »
+1

I think you mean Fearnaught. Personally, I prefer the theme of Lumbermen.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #904 on: September 07, 2017, 04:27:43 pm »
0

I think you mean Fearnaught. Personally, I prefer the theme of Lumbermen.

My information was that both spellings exist, but of course I'm not a native speaker and my information might be wrong/outdated.
I absolutely agree Lumbermen is the more season-y theme. The problem was mostly finding art - this was the best I found.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #905 on: September 07, 2017, 04:44:56 pm »
+1

I think you mean Fearnaught. Personally, I prefer the theme of Lumbermen.

My information was that both spellings exist, but of course I'm not a native speaker and my information might be wrong/outdated.
I absolutely agree Lumbermen is the more season-y theme. The problem was mostly finding art - this was the best I found.
I love the art for Lumbermen though.

About the spelling, Fearnaught seems to be the spelling more commonly associated with a fearless person, though a completely different word might be best. Fearnaught is a bit archaic.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #906 on: September 07, 2017, 04:53:39 pm »
0

I think you mean Fearnaught. Personally, I prefer the theme of Lumbermen.

My information was that both spellings exist, but of course I'm not a native speaker and my information might be wrong/outdated.
I absolutely agree Lumbermen is the more season-y theme. The problem was mostly finding art - this was the best I found.
I love the art for Lumbermen though.

About the spelling, Fearnaught seems to be the spelling more commonly associated with a fearless person, though a completely different word might be best. Fearnaught is a bit archaic.

Lumbermen it is then. Or woodsmen. But certainly something like that.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #907 on: September 10, 2017, 04:56:47 pm »
+2

So, I was considering a card that just always goes back on your deck during Autumn and Winter, but I have a hard time deciding what it should be. Obviously a nonterminal, but what else? I considered:



Please don't pay too much attention to names and pictures for now.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 04:57:59 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #908 on: September 11, 2017, 09:55:24 am »
+1

Cool idea. Meat Market is quite similar to Treasury but the fact Treasury will more likely be topdecked early in the game could be a crucial difference.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #909 on: September 11, 2017, 10:18:00 am »
0

Cool idea. Meat Market is quite similar to Treasury but the fact Treasury will more likely be topdecked early in the game could be a crucial difference.

Yes, both ideas came up because of the fact that Trade Port, a card from the original Season set, behaved very similar to Treasury. I thought about how I could fix Trade Port, an in the end I felt: Well, why not just swap Treasury's timing around.
Other ideas I considered were an attack (but it still would have had to be a cantrip, which narrowed it down too much) or a Treasure worth e.g. 2$ (which seemed boring). I considered a variant of Meat Market that attacked and costed 8 debt instead, which I named Viking Ship. I wasn't looking all that fun.

Perhaps the Village is the best of these variants, and Seasons could stomach another Village. It's very slightly redundant to Champion in that you get free Actions late, but that's about it. My biggest worry is that good players may find it to be pointless because "I draw my deck either way". Then again, I would hope you can green much earlier with this before you feel it, but II'd have to playtest to be sure.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #910 on: September 11, 2017, 12:34:30 pm »
0

I reconsidered, and I think "Glacier Village" might be nicer, as - even though glaciers are a northern thing - it makes it feel less "regional".
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #911 on: September 11, 2017, 01:09:46 pm »
+2

I think Nordic Village is fine. We have things like Mandarin and Gladiator, after all.

I would maybe make it a Duration instead and make it say something like:

Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
Now and at the beginning of every Autumn or Winter turn, <bonus>

which would make it a bit sexier and distinguish it further from Treasury or what have you.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #912 on: September 11, 2017, 01:26:48 pm »
+1

I think Nordic Village is fine. We have things like Mandarin and Gladiator, after all.

I would maybe make it a Duration instead and make it say something like:

Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
Now and at the beginning of every Autumn or Winter turn, <bonus>

which would make it a bit sexier and distinguish it further from Treasury or what have you.
Hmm, but then it's very simmilar to Trade Port.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #913 on: September 11, 2017, 01:55:03 pm »
+1

I don't know Trade Post, which one is that?

If you want to make it even more different, then something like this works, and is also thematic (can't build villages while it's cold):

Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
If it's Spring or Summer, put this on your Tavern Mat

In games using this, at the beginning of each Fall or Winter turn, <bonus> per Nordic Village on your Tavern Mat.

Dunno if that's too far from the initial concept though.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #914 on: September 11, 2017, 02:14:19 pm »
+3

I would guess Nordic Village is a good bit stronger, due to the fact that villages are the types of cards you really need to draw reliably, unlike Peddlers. The difference between getting your Peddler out or not on a turn is more to spend that turn. The difference between having a village in a hand full of terminals and not having a village in a hand full of terminals is huge.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #915 on: September 11, 2017, 02:17:00 pm »
+2

Hmm, but then it's very simmilar to Trade Port.

That's because it's a replacement for Trade Port, which was too similar to Treasury for my tastes. I still liked the idea of a Season-Duration, I just didn't like that it was coin that lingers for the first half of the game.


I think Nordic Village is fine. We have things like Mandarin and Gladiator, after all.

I would maybe make it a Duration instead and make it say something like:

Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
Now and at the beginning of every Autumn or Winter turn, <bonus>

which would make it a bit sexier and distinguish it further from Treasury or what have you.

Considering that Duration cards are by now a staple of Dominion, it probably wouldn't hurt to do that. I mean, it's still one more type, but on the other hand you wouldn't forget what it does on discarding it. My only issue is that it's another type and color to add, where Seasons already has a type and color. Not that this kept Peltmonger from happening. As I mentioned, the card idea started when thinking about Trade Port, which was indeed a duration card. So  it's probably down to preference. A minor rules issue is that in games with both such a duration and Plantation, you wouldn't ever technically be able to discard the card during the turn you play it, because technically speaking, a player could repeatedly gain Plantations to make the game return to Winter, and therefore the card wouldn't know what Season the next turn is when it's time to discard it. We'd have similar issues as the old version of Outpost had, in that the card can't know whether it'll do something next turn. Making it depend on this turn solves this issue.

Alternatively, I could change the on-discard effect slightly, for example to shuffle the card in your deck instead. That way, it would be mechanically different enough from a duration and even allow me to spice the card up a bit more.

Either way, I'll consider a possible duration wording.

I don't know Trade Post, which one is that?

If you want to make it even more different, then something like this works, and is also thematic (can't build villages while it's cold):

Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
If it's Spring or Summer, put this on your Tavern Mat

In games using this, at the beginning of each Fall or Winter turn, <bonus> per Nordic Village on your Tavern Mat.

Dunno if that's too far from the initial concept though.

I tried a Reserve that counted copies of itself before with Barkeep, but didn't manage to find a way to make it fun. Maybe that's just me not knowing how to do it right, though. In any case, Seasons already has a Reserve, and I don't really feel adding a second one would be as interesting.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #916 on: September 11, 2017, 02:26:53 pm »
0

I would guess Nordic Village is a good bit stronger, due to the fact that villages are the types of cards you really need to draw reliably, unlike Peddlers. The difference between getting your Peddler out or not on a turn is more to spend that turn. The difference between having a village in a hand full of terminals and not having a village in a hand full of terminals is huge.

I think both are really strong (possibly too strong). Meat Market allows me to buy Victory card without caring all that much about my deck composition, and unlike Treasury never fails me. Either way, I do get why you think Nordic Village is stronger. I also feel it's the more interesting card though, so I might just try it without the buy if it turns out to strong, and then possibly take the "shuffle it in" route worst case. Although I believe a Village really wants to be reliable in this case, especially as it would be awful if you drew this one dead (after shuffling it in) and then never saw it again.

Or I could just always shuffle it back in if it gets discarded in Autumn and Winter, regardless of whether it was in play or not. Although then it would be pretty extreme with Rebuild-like cards. Not that there are that many of them which would skip it.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #917 on: September 11, 2017, 02:31:36 pm »
0

I don't know Trade Post, which one is that?

Trade Port said:

At the start of each of your turns in Spring, Summer and Autumn: +1$, +1 Buy
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #918 on: September 11, 2017, 02:41:04 pm »
+1

A minor rules issue is that in games with both such a duration and Plantation, you wouldn't ever technically be able to discard the card during the turn you play it, because technically speaking, a player could repeatedly gain Plantations to make the game return to Winter, and therefore the card wouldn't know what Season the next turn is when it's time to discard it. We'd have similar issues as the old version of Outpost had, in that the card can't know whether it'll do something next turn. Making it depend on this turn solves this issue.

I am confused by this statement. The way I phrased it, it would always stay in play, because nothing can stop Autumn or Winter from potentially happening again (short of the game ending). So since the card would still have an effect in the future, it stays in play.

Quote
I tried a Reserve that counted copies of itself before with Barkeep, but didn't manage to find a way to make it fun. Maybe that's just me not knowing how to do it right, though. In any case, Seasons already has a Reserve, and I don't really feel adding a second one would be as interesting.

The second wording is actually more of a Duration card than a Reserve, but trying to phrase it as a Duration makes it very clunky. Basically, the "Duration" part of the card only happens if you play it in Spring or Summer. It's otherwise (more or less) identical to the other phrasing. It's also weaker, which gives more leeway with the choice of bonus.


The "shuffle it in" version is cute though!
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #919 on: September 11, 2017, 03:12:33 pm »
+1

A minor rules issue is that in games with both such a duration and Plantation, you wouldn't ever technically be able to discard the card during the turn you play it, because technically speaking, a player could repeatedly gain Plantations to make the game return to Winter, and therefore the card wouldn't know what Season the next turn is when it's time to discard it. We'd have similar issues as the old version of Outpost had, in that the card can't know whether it'll do something next turn. Making it depend on this turn solves this issue.

I am confused by this statement. The way I phrased it, it would always stay in play, because nothing can stop Autumn or Winter from potentially happening again (short of the game ending). So since the card would still have an effect in the future, it stays in play.

Ah, okay, I misunderstood your intention there. Yes, this kind of effect is absolutely a contender, although I'd probably use Hireling's wording and check the Season as part of the "each turn" effect.

Quote
I tried a Reserve that counted copies of itself before with Barkeep, but didn't manage to find a way to make it fun. Maybe that's just me not knowing how to do it right, though. In any case, Seasons already has a Reserve, and I don't really feel adding a second one would be as interesting.

The second wording is actually more of a Duration card than a Reserve, but trying to phrase it as a Duration makes it very clunky. Basically, the "Duration" part of the card only happens if you play it in Spring or Summer. It's otherwise (more or less) identical to the other phrasing. It's also weaker, which gives more leeway with the choice of bonus.

The "shuffle it in" version is cute though!

Right, I misunderstood you again  :-[
That's actually a cute idea. The only downside is that we already have a few Season cards that push you to buy them earlier than you actually want them (Student, Sanitarium, Timberland and the recently added Woodsmen/Lumbermen).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #920 on: September 11, 2017, 03:25:25 pm »
+2

My main problem with both Nordic Village and Meat Market is that they aren't new. I know not everything has to be cool and unique, but Nordic Village seems like it doesn't really do anything Worker's Village and Walled Village don't try to do already. While using the Seasons mechanic is cool, it seems to be more of a gimmick to make a boring card slightly more interesting. I think changing the boni on Nordic Village could make it a lot more interesting:
Quote
+2 Actions
+2 Buys
-------------
When you discard this from play in Autumn or Winter, you may put it onto your deck.
I don't know of balance, but it seems more unique and offer's more strategic depth with optional topdecking and an extra +buy!
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #921 on: September 11, 2017, 04:14:56 pm »
+1

I don't disagree with ThetaSigma12 here. If going with a Duration or Reserve wording, it can be made more "different" by giving a different bonus on the turn it's played.

For example (crazy example to illustrate the idea):

Code: [Select]
+4 Actions
At the start of each of your turns until the end of the game, if it's Fall or Winter, +1$ +1 buy

I am now aware that the second half is basically identical to Trading Post though.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 04:16:06 pm by pacovf »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #922 on: September 11, 2017, 05:51:08 pm »
+1

My main problem with both Nordic Village and Meat Market is that they aren't new. I know not everything has to be cool and unique, but Nordic Village seems like it doesn't really do anything Worker's Village and Walled Village don't try to do already. While using the Seasons mechanic is cool, it seems to be more of a gimmick to make a boring card slightly more interesting. I think changing the boni on Nordic Village could make it a lot more interesting:
Quote
+2 Actions
+2 Buys
-------------
When you discard this from play in Autumn or Winter, you may put it onto your deck.
I don't know of balance, but it seems more unique and offer's more strategic depth with optional topdecking and an extra +buy!

While I like the idea of making the card more unique, I'm not convinced you would ever want a Necropolis+ so badly you'd topdeck it. Firstly, if you use more than one of these, changes are you won't draw enough terminals to actually use them. Generally, I'm pretty convinced that this either needs to stay out Hireling-style or be a cantrip. About effects, I would like to have it cost 5$, as Seasons has a fair share of cheap cards already. That means it can't be too situational. Also, for a 5$ it obviously doesn't make much sense to let it do something special during Spring or Summer. Another option would be a debt cost, and I in fact considered a card using debt for a while.

I don't disagree with ThetaSigma12 here. If going with a Duration or Reserve wording, it can be made more "different" by giving a different bonus on the turn it's played.

For example (crazy example to illustrate the idea):

Code: [Select]
+4 Actions
At the start of each of your turns until the end of the game, if it's Fall or Winter, +1$ +1 buy

I am now aware that the second half is basically identical to Trading Post though.

This is a cool concept, especially if you make both effects complementary - but I think that doesn't really need to be a Season card. Something like "Trash your hand. At the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game, gain a card costing up to 4$" might be fine on its own.

---

I'll be back and write a bit more soon. Also, I thought I mentioned it before, I also considered a Treasury-style attack. Imagine Vikings returning every turn in Winter ;)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 05:52:29 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #923 on: September 11, 2017, 06:35:43 pm »
+1

By the way, here's the attack variant. The problem is that, you can't do an attack that's a duration for tracking issues, so it has to be nonterminal. You don't want them to harm your turn just for attacking, as that drags out the game, so they have to be cantrips. They can't attack handsize because that harms cantrips, can't attack the deck because that harms the topdecking ability, and can't deal out junk because that would become horrible with cantrips. So, what remains are Bureaucrat (already on Raiders, but worst case you have to reconsider Raiders), or dealing out tokens. So, tokens it is. I originally had this always go on deck, but then it seemed too good for 5$. So I costed it at <8>, but that seemed weird if it had the -1$ token from another expansion, so instead it gave out <1> if the other players didn't have <> yet. Then I figured I could do the shuffling and reduce the cost to 5$ to avoid the all-too-obvious self-synergy (receive no <> if you already bought this), and then of course I could do the Adventures token again. It has a bit too much going on for my liking though, but just so you see some of the other ideas I pondered.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 08:40:23 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #924 on: September 11, 2017, 09:14:06 pm »
+1

I think it's cute! Power level is probably ok too. Note that, after drawing your whole deck, during Clean up you will just form a deck with all your Viking Ships. The "shuffle" thing could possibly be attached to a more interesting card, but not all cards can be the most interesting ever.
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