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Author Topic: Asper's Cards  (Read 180365 times)

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tristan

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #400 on: November 29, 2015, 02:22:16 pm »
+1

Isn't this version of Conserve strictly better than every $4 cost card ever?
Better than many, yes, and I would agree that it is fairly strong as you will probably use it for a few times in most games. But there are quite some 4$ cards (Noble Brigand and Port are the ones that come to mind) with "when you buy this" effects that are not triggered by this event. And if you compare it with other gain events like Alms or Seaway it does not appear to be overpowered.
I think that the previous version of Conserve is more interesting though.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #401 on: November 29, 2015, 05:11:45 pm »
+1

Isn't this version of Conserve strictly better than every $4 cost card ever?

In the sense that you will almost always buy Conserve rather than a $4 cost card, yes.  But I don't think that inherently makes it bad design in this case.  Usually the problem with cards being strictly better than other cards is that when they appear together, the worse card is never bought or gained (outside of edge cases like Swindler/Possession).  With Conserve though, you still play with whatever $4 cards you would normally get, now you just also get an extra little bonus for it.  Like Summon, it wouldn't be bad for it to be amazingly powerful, because it doesn't discourage you from buying other cards.
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Gubump

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #402 on: November 29, 2015, 10:04:06 pm »
+2

Isn't this version of Conserve strictly better than every $4 cost card ever?

In the sense that you will almost always buy Conserve rather than a $4 cost card, yes.  But I don't think that inherently makes it bad design in this case.  Usually the problem with cards being strictly better than other cards is that when they appear together, the worse card is never bought or gained (outside of edge cases like Swindler/Possession).  With Conserve though, you still play with whatever $4 cards you would normally get, now you just also get an extra little bonus for it.  Like Summon, it wouldn't be bad for it to be amazingly powerful, because it doesn't discourage you from buying other cards.

I disagree, since this makes it so that there's almost no reason not to buy it if you have exactly $4.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #403 on: November 29, 2015, 10:50:30 pm »
+2

Isn't this version of Conserve strictly better than every $4 cost card ever?

In the sense that you will almost always buy Conserve rather than a $4 cost card, yes.  But I don't think that inherently makes it bad design in this case.  Usually the problem with cards being strictly better than other cards is that when they appear together, the worse card is never bought or gained (outside of edge cases like Swindler/Possession).  With Conserve though, you still play with whatever $4 cards you would normally get, now you just also get an extra little bonus for it.  Like Summon, it wouldn't be bad for it to be amazingly powerful, because it doesn't discourage you from buying other cards.

I disagree, since this makes it so that there's almost no reason not to buy it if you have exactly $4.

But why is that a problem?  I've already explained why it's not a problem in this case.

Playing with the new version of Conserve is basically like playing with a special rule that says "During your buy phase, if you have exactly $4, take a coin token (that can't be spent this turn)".  I don't see how playing some games with this rule makes the game less fun or interesting.  It's not like it trivializes the decision of what to do with $4, since you still have to figure out what card to get after you buy the event.
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Gubump

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #404 on: November 30, 2015, 12:02:35 am »
+2

Isn't this version of Conserve strictly better than every $4 cost card ever?

In the sense that you will almost always buy Conserve rather than a $4 cost card, yes.  But I don't think that inherently makes it bad design in this case.  Usually the problem with cards being strictly better than other cards is that when they appear together, the worse card is never bought or gained (outside of edge cases like Swindler/Possession).  With Conserve though, you still play with whatever $4 cards you would normally get, now you just also get an extra little bonus for it.  Like Summon, it wouldn't be bad for it to be amazingly powerful, because it doesn't discourage you from buying other cards.

I disagree, since this makes it so that there's almost no reason not to buy it if you have exactly $4.

But why is that a problem?  I've already explained why it's not a problem in this case.

Playing with the new version of Conserve is basically like playing with a special rule that says "During your buy phase, if you have exactly $4, take a coin token (that can't be spent this turn)".  I don't see how playing some games with this rule makes the game less fun or interesting.  It's not like it trivializes the decision of what to do with $4, since you still have to figure out what card to get after you buy the event.

Okay, you make a good argument. I agree with you, now.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #405 on: November 30, 2015, 06:26:07 am »
0

Hm, i see this version isn't super popular, but it's interesting to see it started some discussion.

Scott_pilgrim got my idea behind it pretty well. Conserve is a game altering event, similar to Alms or Quest. I don't think "strictly better" applies for events that are not capable of replacing cards entirely. The rule it creates is "If you aquire a cheap card, gain a coin token". I considered costing this at $5, but it didn't seem like something you'd buy. You want your coin tokens to be able to buy something decent, you don't want to skip something decent to get a coin token. Allthough, with this version, you still can. If you hit $5, you can still get Worker's Village and a coin token instead of a $5. You might not often want to, but you can.

That said, this is just an idea thrown in there. I'm not very active creating fan cards currently, so i figured i could just as well post it. The original Conserve was cleaner, but incredibly dominant, sadly.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #406 on: November 30, 2015, 06:44:40 am »
0

Idea to remove the requirement of reaching $4 and to allow on-buy abilities: Travelling Fair style.

Bargain, $0/$1
+1 Buy
Once per turn: When you buy a card costing up to $4 this turn, gain a coin token.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #407 on: November 30, 2015, 07:04:44 am »
+1

Idea to remove the requirement of reaching $4 and to allow on-buy abilities: Travelling Fair style.

Bargain, $0/$1
+1 Buy
Once per turn: When you buy a card costing up to $4 this turn, gain a coin token.

But this would make Conserve/Bargain even easier and more trivial to use. With the requirement of reaching $4, at least you have to put in some work to use this powerful ability. I like it to have some restrictions. It's still not a very fancy event but it should work out.
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Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #408 on: January 05, 2016, 06:02:37 pm »
0

Decided to simply make Research unable to put Potions on the deck. Yes, this makes it impossible to save the Potion for your next hand, but that isn't such a good strategy either way normally.




Also, an old idea i talked about a few times in the past and recently suggested again in another thread:

Speculation, $4, Event
Put your Speculation token on an Action supply pile. When another player plays a card from that pile for the first time during his turn, take a coin token.

I decided against the obvious choice of giving out cards - if the event counts any play, it can stack too much, and if it only ever gives one, if's just not too interesting or good.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 06:05:31 pm by Asper »
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #409 on: January 05, 2016, 06:04:32 pm »
+1

Research seems actually overpowered. If you have a Lab/Hunting Party/Governer/City stack, you purchase a Potion for ultimate reliability.

And this event effectively turns Labs into Alchemists, which I actually like.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #410 on: January 22, 2016, 02:38:22 am »
0

Played a few games against Co0kieL0rd recently:

The first had Hospital and Forager. I got quite a few points by playing this combination, and CL resigned when i was about 16 to 20 VP tokens in the lead already. I assume this should be one of the best combos with Hospital, though: Forager needs to be fed junk and lowers your handsize - Hospital provides junk and increases your handsize. At the same time you get points. The board also had Alms, which made sure i could pick up either component even after aggressive trashing. It certainly made Hospital look very strong, but feel it was a combo and doesn't speak for its strength with other trashers - it should also work with Chapel and Forge, but that's about it, i think.

On another note, Paddock will leave us. I kind of like it, but it never gets used. It's just not strong enough. The last game we used it it was a key card, curiously, but in that game Gold was really unattractive, Ferry allowed cost reduction, an engine was unavailable and the other $5s were VP cards. It just doesn't prove anything, Paddock is still lame.

I will also remove Tribunal. The attack seemed clever for a while, but the things i found necessary to balance it make it look complicated and weird. I'm also not sure the attack works that good. Maybe i should have made it so only the first play gives you a choice. Meh.

Nouveau Riche hasn't aged well either. I appreciate if some people like it, but i'm not one of them anymore. I'll remove it for now and see whether i stumble over a fix.

Research will lose the "no Potion" clause and become "once per turn". Don't know why i didn't decide for that before.

I'll also look for another image for Alley.

Also, wow, have you checked out that cool new fan set, Seasons?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #411 on: January 22, 2016, 03:56:14 pm »
+4

Update Madness!


Research is now "Once per turn"


Alley got a pretty, new picture.


Sheriff now uses Sheriff tokens. I mean, i liked the flavour of tax tokens, but we all know you bribe him into getting others in trouble, anyway.


Cosmetical change: "Two" is now "2".


Sultan now only puts the card on top of your deck and costs $3. Not tested, though.


Paddock is gone, here's Artisan which replaces it. Not tested, might be too strong.


Jeweler is now a terminal Gold which can be used as a Silver in case nothing else goes. The +card version was a bit too strong, and the similarity of the effects means you now get it as payload - not as a single-card strategy or expensive Smithy.

Taxation is the new Coin Token event. Now you know why Sheriff lost tax tokens.
Removed Taxation, as it's far too similar to convolucid's Levy.

Also, added artist names.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 09:42:52 am by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #412 on: January 23, 2016, 02:40:47 pm »
+4

Maybe somebody has use for this TS-template.


« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 07:53:10 am by Asper »
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Accatitippi

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #413 on: January 23, 2016, 04:49:37 pm »
+1

Maybe it's been covered already in the other pages, but have you considered/tried Sheriff with vanilla Coin Tokens?
It definitely would give the card more flexibility, but maybe break it, on the other hand. (I can see players buying sheriffs only for the overpay).
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #414 on: January 23, 2016, 05:04:11 pm »
+1

Maybe it's been covered already in the other pages, but have you considered/tried Sheriff with vanilla Coin Tokens?
It definitely would give the card more flexibility, but maybe break it, on the other hand. (I can see players buying sheriffs only for the overpay).

Yes, i thought about that - after all, Guilds has Coin tokens. But it deviated too much from the card's concept, and it seemed like a lot of trouble to get it to work without making it broken or lame. So, i decided not to.

I did try a similar thing as an Event, and even though it looked very nice and clean at first, it was too game changing and mostly a no-brainer. Maybe an overpay effect IS the way to go here, but Sheriff is not the card to put it on. Which shouldn't stop you from using coin tokens to track the bribe money you paid your Sheriffs in the way Pirate Ship or Trade Route use them ;)
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Accatitippi

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #415 on: January 24, 2016, 05:49:19 am »
+1

Maybe it's been covered already in the other pages, but have you considered/tried Sheriff with vanilla Coin Tokens?
It definitely would give the card more flexibility, but maybe break it, on the other hand. (I can see players buying sheriffs only for the overpay).

Yes, i thought about that - after all, Guilds has Coin tokens. But it deviated too much from the card's concept, and it seemed like a lot of trouble to get it to work without making it broken or lame. So, i decided not to.

I did try a similar thing as an Event, and even though it looked very nice and clean at first, it was too game changing and mostly a no-brainer. Maybe an overpay effect IS the way to go here, but Sheriff is not the card to put it on. Which shouldn't stop you from using coin tokens to track the bribe money you paid your Sheriffs in the way Pirate Ship or Trade Route use them ;)

I see.  :)

About Jeweler, I think you probably have to specify "discard from your hand" to avoid misunderstandings about whether one can discard it from play.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #416 on: January 24, 2016, 07:24:01 am »
0

Maybe it's been covered already in the other pages, but have you considered/tried Sheriff with vanilla Coin Tokens?
It definitely would give the card more flexibility, but maybe break it, on the other hand. (I can see players buying sheriffs only for the overpay).

Yes, i thought about that - after all, Guilds has Coin tokens. But it deviated too much from the card's concept, and it seemed like a lot of trouble to get it to work without making it broken or lame. So, i decided not to.

I did try a similar thing as an Event, and even though it looked very nice and clean at first, it was too game changing and mostly a no-brainer. Maybe an overpay effect IS the way to go here, but Sheriff is not the card to put it on. Which shouldn't stop you from using coin tokens to track the bribe money you paid your Sheriffs in the way Pirate Ship or Trade Route use them ;)

I see.  :)

About Jeweler, I think you probably have to specify "discard from your hand" to avoid misunderstandings about whether one can discard it from play.

After looking at official cards a bit, i think you are right that clarification would be better. I will change it.
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tristan

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #417 on: January 24, 2016, 08:23:37 am »
+1

Artisan might be too strong. Then again it just gains a 3$ card and we all had our Hermit games in which we did not want to gain a 3$ card in the middle game.
Taxation is pretty interesting. It is similiar to convolucid's Levy and its strength obviously depends positively upon the number of players.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #418 on: January 24, 2016, 09:41:36 am »
0

Artisan might be too strong. Then again it just gains a 3$ card and we all had our Hermit games in which we did not want to gain a 3$ card in the middle game.
Taxation is pretty interesting. It is similiar to convolucid's Levy and its strength obviously depends positively upon the number of players.

Wow, can't believe i forgot about Levy - i even posted in that thread. Guess that means i can just as well scrap Taxation. I mean, i didn't test it yet, but Levy probably is the better implementation anyhow.
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tristan

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #419 on: January 25, 2016, 02:59:22 am »
+1

Artisan might be too strong. Then again it just gains a 3$ card and we all had our Hermit games in which we did not want to gain a 3$ card in the middle game.
Taxation is pretty interesting. It is similiar to convolucid's Levy and its strength obviously depends positively upon the number of players.

Wow, can't believe i forgot about Levy - i even posted in that thread. Guess that means i can just as well scrap Taxation. I mean, i didn't test it yet, but Levy probably is the better implementation anyhow.
I think that the difference between buying and playing a card is significant enough to warrant two Events. I also think that your Taxation is easier to playtest as there is only one variant whereas Levy should probably be tested with buy vs. gain, Action cards vs. Action cards / Treasure cards and another player vs. any player.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #420 on: January 25, 2016, 10:48:11 am »
0

Artisan might be too strong. Then again it just gains a 3$ card and we all had our Hermit games in which we did not want to gain a 3$ card in the middle game.
Taxation is pretty interesting. It is similiar to convolucid's Levy and its strength obviously depends positively upon the number of players.

Wow, can't believe i forgot about Levy - i even posted in that thread. Guess that means i can just as well scrap Taxation. I mean, i didn't test it yet, but Levy probably is the better implementation anyhow.
I think that the difference between buying and playing a card is significant enough to warrant two Events. I also think that your Taxation is easier to playtest as there is only one variant whereas Levy should probably be tested with buy vs. gain, Action cards vs. Action cards / Treasure cards and another player vs. any player.

On the other hand, Taxation would have to be tested in games with different player numbers, so i'm not sure it's less work. I'm not sure. Maybe i should give it a shot at least.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #421 on: February 02, 2016, 01:26:50 pm »
+1

Asper,

Nouveau Riche:

Are all those things simultaneous or one after the other?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #422 on: February 02, 2016, 03:09:50 pm »
+2

Asper,

Nouveau Riche:

Are all those things simultaneous or one after the other?

Dear Mr./Ms./Mrs. Healey,
thank you for your interest in our cards. We consider ourselves glad to call you our trusting customer. Sadly, support for Nouveau Riche has ceased since version 6.18 of Asper's cards. We hope you will enjoy our other products.
~Asper's Cards Corporation (Limited)



I hope you don't mind a little joke. The point is, i removed NR from this thread a while ago because i wasn't happy with it. Curiously, there seem to be a few people who kind of like it, and i never know whether i'm wrong on this. So, it's cool to hear someone is interested in it.

Either way, to give you an actual answer: The effects happen one after another, so you can discard and Estate to draw 3 cards, and then discard a Duchy you just drew. After that, you can discard a third VP card to get +1 Action. Simultaneously, this means that you do not automatically get +1 Action after discarding an Estate or Duchy - you have to decide each in order. Of course, you are also free to skip drawing cards, and then discard a Duchy for money, followed by an Estate for +1 Action. In the beginning, you will probably most often discard an Estate, draw 3 cards and then discard another Estate to get some kind of pseudo-Lab. It's interesting i get asked this question relatively often, even though i sticked to Hamlet 's wording. Then again, i'm not sure i immediately got Hamlet when i first saw it, myself.

If you play with it and form an opinion, could you tell me what you think? That would be great. Thanks :)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 03:11:26 pm by Asper »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #423 on: February 02, 2016, 04:29:10 pm »
+1

Asper,

Nouveau Riche:

Are all those things simultaneous or one after the other?

Dear Mr./Ms./Mrs. Healey,
thank you for your interest in our cards. We consider ourselves glad to call you our trusting customer. Sadly, support for Nouveau Riche has ceased since version 6.18 of Asper's cards. We hope you will enjoy our other products.
~Asper's Cards Corporation (Limited)



I hope you don't mind a little joke. The point is, i removed NR from this thread a while ago because i wasn't happy with it. Curiously, there seem to be a few people who kind of like it, and i never know whether i'm wrong on this. So, it's cool to hear someone is interested in it.

Either way, to give you an actual answer: The effects happen one after another, so you can discard and Estate to draw 3 cards, and then discard a Duchy you just drew. After that, you can discard a third VP card to get +1 Action. Simultaneously, this means that you do not automatically get +1 Action after discarding an Estate or Duchy - you have to decide each in order. Of course, you are also free to skip drawing cards, and then discard a Duchy for money, followed by an Estate for +1 Action. In the beginning, you will probably most often discard an Estate, draw 3 cards and then discard another Estate to get some kind of pseudo-Lab. It's interesting i get asked this question relatively often, even though i sticked to Hamlet 's wording. Then again, i'm not sure i immediately got Hamlet when i first saw it, myself.

If you play with it and form an opinion, could you tell me what you think? That would be great. Thanks :)

You should revive it. It's one of my favorites to try it out. That's why I am asking. So it's the strongest possible version, cool.

Drs. Healey will do, btw. Haha.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #424 on: February 02, 2016, 05:33:33 pm »
+3

Okay, so i was thinking: Apparently one of the things i really disliked about Nouveau Riche was the art. I mean, it even has a gap that somehow looks like a scanline... Shudder. Either way, when looking for new art today, i stumbled over a few pics of rich kids, but nothing that spelled out "Nouveau Riche" to me. Then i thought, Nouveau Riche, maybe that doesn't sound medieval anyhow, maybe i should make it "Heir"? It still has that aura of unearned riches, and of aristocracy, that i wanted for a VP-interacting card.

So, how about a name/design change?



Thematic bonus: Inheritance as Estate Interaction now makes total sense. Also, this could be a Baron's heir, or a Duke's. Maybe the Duchess and the Baron had a kid and this guy is who she's holding on her image, maybe it's a patchwork family - you never know.
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