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Author Topic: Asper's Cards  (Read 109574 times)

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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1200 on: October 11, 2018, 10:10:28 pm »
+1

Thanks. Is there something I'm missing about this, because I can't figure out when you would ever want to buy Glory, except when you have an extra turn from Mission or Haunted Woods or Swamp Hag are in play, and maybe one other thing. It seems like it would hardly ever be wanted.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1201 on: October 12, 2018, 01:54:56 am »
0

Thanks. Is there something I'm missing about this, because I can't figure out when you would ever want to buy Glory, except when you have an extra turn from Mission or Haunted Woods or Swamp Hag are in play, and maybe one other thing. It seems like it would hardly ever be wanted.

It delays the gaining of a Province you already bought to an arbitrary time. As a result, it doesn't clog your deck. Quite often, it's really strong.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1202 on: October 12, 2018, 06:03:28 am »
0

I just realized that on Sanctuary, I wrote "When this is in play", whereas it should be "While this is in play". I will fix this later today if I don't forget. I might actually even change the picture when I'm at it. As pretty as it looks, confusing Sanctuary with Maze seems a bit too easy. Or what do you guys think?

Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1203 on: October 12, 2018, 07:14:25 am »
+1

Thanks. Is there something I'm missing about this, because I can't figure out when you would ever want to buy Glory, except when you have an extra turn from Mission or Haunted Woods or Swamp Hag are in play, and maybe one other thing. It seems like it would hardly ever be wanted.

It delays the gaining of a Province you already bought to an arbitrary time. As a result, it doesn't clog your deck. Quite often, it's really strong.
Now I see. Thanks.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1204 on: October 12, 2018, 07:14:58 am »
+1

I just realized that on Sanctuary, I wrote "When this is in play", whereas it should be "While this is in play". I will fix this later today if I don't forget. I might actually even change the picture when I'm at it. As pretty as it looks, confusing Sanctuary with Maze seems a bit too easy. Or what do you guys think?
Yeah, they look very close. But the colors are different enough, maybe.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1205 on: October 12, 2018, 09:00:39 am »
+1

I think they look different enough, but I havenít played with them.
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Aquila

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1206 on: October 12, 2018, 10:32:44 am »
+1

I just realized that on Sanctuary, I wrote "When this is in play", whereas it should be "While this is in play". I will fix this later today if I don't forget.
Two more things I noticed: Pilgrim takes a Coin token whilst Bargain has +1 Coffers; and Sheriff isn't an Attack, but I would understand if this is intentional as Moats could affect your decision to spend a token.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1207 on: October 12, 2018, 11:25:54 am »
0

I just realized that on Sanctuary, I wrote "When this is in play", whereas it should be "While this is in play". I will fix this later today if I don't forget.
Two more things I noticed: Pilgrim takes a Coin token whilst Bargain has +1 Coffers; and Sheriff isn't an Attack, but I would understand if this is intentional as Moats could affect your decision to spend a token.

Argh, both of these need to be corrected, too. Of course people will be sad if they spend Sheriff tokens in vain, but such is the case when they spend an Action on Sea Hag. Certainly not intended. Thanks for pointing this out! :)

Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1208 on: October 12, 2018, 11:50:42 am »
+1

Is Sultan fairly new, or am I just seeing it now?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1209 on: October 12, 2018, 12:41:56 pm »
+1

Is Sultan fairly new, or am I just seeing it now?
It's actually very old and kinda keeps jittering between being an outtake and a "real" card. I added it to the OP because I felt people interested in my cards should decide themselves. But it's one of the cards I'm least sure about.
The same applies to Meadow, by the way. I know some people like it, but LastFootnote for instance mentioned a strong dislike. Again, I think it's decent enough to be something you should judge yourself.
Another one that moved back and forth occasionally is Iron Maiden, but there I think I did the right thing by keeping it in the outtakes section. It's just slow and unreliable, kind of like a cheaper, more malicious Tribute. The pun's not worth it.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1210 on: October 12, 2018, 07:20:40 pm »
+1

I fixed up Sheriff, Pilgrim and Sanctuary, and altered the part of the image you see in both Sanctuary and Maze. I think it does both of them a good service. Maze's image's focus shifts from the castle to the actual maze, and Sanctuary looks more like a save haven with the dark surrounding it. Well, at least that's what I think. Most importantly, the different composition makes them harder to confuse.

Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1211 on: October 12, 2018, 09:09:33 pm »
+1

Not only is it less likely to confuse the two now, I like the new versions of Sanctuary and Maze better.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1212 on: October 12, 2018, 11:38:44 pm »
+1

I donít notice much difference for Sanctuary, but I agree with Eagles that Maze looks a lot better now that the focus of the image is on the maze itself.
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Kudasai

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1213 on: October 13, 2018, 03:56:07 am »
+1

Do you think Road would benefit from having some text to prevent infinite draw when combined with Champion? Something like:


+2 Cards
Return this to your hand.
-----------------------------------
While this is in play, you may not gain Actions (Actions, not Action cards).
(This is not in the Supply)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 03:57:15 am by Kudasai »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1214 on: October 13, 2018, 07:25:35 am »
0

Do you think Road would benefit from having some text to prevent infinite draw when combined with Champion? Something like:


+2 Cards
Return this to your hand.
-----------------------------------
While this is in play, you may not gain Actions (Actions, not Action cards).
(This is not in the Supply)

I appreciate your suggestion, but I'd like to keep Road as is.

Fixes to Road have been proposed a few times in the past, but up to now, I never really felt the urge to change Road. Having it be a non-supply card was LastFootnote's suggestion, and I'm glad it is, because it fixes several issues. Now the only card it seems OP with is Champion. Problem is, I hate Champion, or rather, I hate the Page line. Warrior is easily one of the worst cards in Dominion for me, and as a result, if Page and Road couldn't both be in Dominion for some reason, I know what I'd choose.

But in honesty, how bad is it that Champion/Road allows you to play an arbitrary number of Roads? It only comes up once in a blue moon, and even then, all it does is draw your deck. In a real-life game, just reveal the Road and put your deck in your hand. Faster than Scrying Pool, that's what it is. Of course there may be discard-for-benefit, and man, it's still no worse than Scrying Pool - again in one rare setup. "But what if the person just keeps playing the same Road again and again?" is a legitimate question. In most Champion/Road games, it does nothing. It's not like the game keeps me from revealing Secret Chamber endlessly until you jump over the table to kill me, so that's that.

Of course, there are theoretical setups where a player might want to play Road again and again for a benefit. Actually, I can only think of one, which requires Town, Page, Tournament and Travelling Fair. Each Road you play now generates one surplus Action, each such Action generates +1 coin, and coins also produce buys. So, if you now get a Road in hand, you can empty the supply. And then, you can reveal the Road, say "I empty the supply" and go on to the next game. Or if you insist to play it out, you draw your deck, put Road on the table until the cash you'll get from Diadem outbuys all the cards you need, and then go on to the next game. Again you could again argue that somebody might want to produce even more coins, and again, those don't achieve anything you don't have already, so it's the same thing as Secret Chamber to me. And if all stars align, you could even include an Event like Wedding, where infinite coins are infinite VP, and then the VP are what the coins are, they stop doing anything the ones you already have don't do, so it becomes pointless to keep on getting them. Again, Secret Chamber.

As a sign of my good will, I hereby promise, if this ever actually comes up in random setup, and the game actually ends on a Road exploit instead of by somebody winning before this can be set up, and that player actually insists on ammassing a surplus of more than, let's say, 1000 VP, I will compensate all people involved except that time-stealing jerk by sending them free pizza in a flavor of their choice. This offer expires October 13th, 4018.

Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1215 on: October 13, 2018, 09:32:12 am »
+1

I agree that one broken combo should not make one change a card that is otherwise totally sound.
If you personally never player with Page it doesn't matter anyway.

I also don't think that the combo is necesarily that brilliant. When you go for Page you might want some villages to go smoothly over the Warrior/Hero steps but you want less than usual.
So Town/Road is not that good but in order to kick of your Champion-Road engine you need a decent density of Roads in your deck. It is after all kind of pointless to only draw your deck in some turns.
This is why I think it is feasible to imagine a Kingdom in which the Town/Road player loses to somebody who went for a Smithy variant instead, to imagine a Kingdom in which Road is not the dominant strategy.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1216 on: October 13, 2018, 09:44:55 am »
0

I donít notice much difference for Sanctuary, but I agree with Eagles that Maze looks a lot better now that the focus of the image is on the maze itself.

Thanks :)
Sanctuary just went a bit further away from the building in the middle, so you see more of its surroundings.

Kudasai

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1217 on: October 13, 2018, 03:28:21 pm »
+2

Of course, there are theoretical setups where a player might want to play Road again and again for a benefit. Actually, I can only think of one, which requires Town, Page, Tournament and Travelling Fair. Each Road you play now generates one surplus Action, each such Action generates +1 coin, and coins also produce buys. So, if you now get a Road in hand, you can empty the supply. And then, you can reveal the Road, say "I empty the supply" and go on to the next game. Or if you insist to play it out, you draw your deck, put Road on the table until the cash you'll get from Diadem outbuys all the cards you need, and then go on to the next game. Again you could again argue that somebody might want to produce even more coins, and again, those don't achieve anything you don't have already, so it's the same thing as Secret Chamber to me. And if all stars align, you could even include an Event like Wedding, where infinite coins are infinite VP, and then the VP are what the coins are, they stop doing anything the ones you already have don't do, so it becomes pointless to keep on getting them. Again, Secret Chamber.

This actually would need a +1 Action token on Road to work and as Road is not in the Supply you're in the clear!

As a sign of my good will, I hereby promise, if this ever actually comes up in random setup, and the game actually ends on a Road exploit instead of by somebody winning before this can be set up, and that player actually insists on ammassing a surplus of more than, let's say, 1000 VP, I will compensate all people involved except that time-stealing jerk by sending them free pizza in a flavor of their choice. This offer expires October 13th, 4018.

I vote to have this added to Road's text. You can clearly shrink this down though.

"In games using this, if this ruins your game, +1 Pizza"

I agree that one broken combo should not make one change a card that is otherwise totally sound.
If you personally never player with Page it doesn't matter anyway.

I also don't think that the combo is necesarily that brilliant. When you go for Page you might want some villages to go smoothly over the Warrior/Hero steps but you want less than usual.
So Town/Road is not that good but in order to kick of your Champion-Road engine you need a decent density of Roads in your deck. It is after all kind of pointless to only draw your deck in some turns.
This is why I think it is feasible to imagine a Kingdom in which the Town/Road player loses to somebody who went for a Smithy variant instead, to imagine a Kingdom in which Road is not the dominant strategy.

I agree. There are still a lot of tough play choices prior to getting Champion in play.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 03:30:24 pm by Kudasai »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1218 on: October 13, 2018, 04:17:51 pm »
+7

Of course, there are theoretical setups where a player might want to play Road again and again for a benefit. Actually, I can only think of one, which requires Town, Page, Tournament and Travelling Fair. Each Road you play now generates one surplus Action, each such Action generates +1 coin, and coins also produce buys. So, if you now get a Road in hand, you can empty the supply. And then, you can reveal the Road, say "I empty the supply" and go on to the next game. Or if you insist to play it out, you draw your deck, put Road on the table until the cash you'll get from Diadem outbuys all the cards you need, and then go on to the next game. Again you could again argue that somebody might want to produce even more coins, and again, those don't achieve anything you don't have already, so it's the same thing as Secret Chamber to me. And if all stars align, you could even include an Event like Wedding, where infinite coins are infinite VP, and then the VP are what the coins are, they stop doing anything the ones you already have don't do, so it becomes pointless to keep on getting them. Again, Secret Chamber.

This actually would need a +1 Action token on Road to work and as Road is not in the Supply you're in the clear!

Nah, that actually does work. "All" you need is a second Champion in play.

As a sign of my good will, I hereby promise, if this ever actually comes up in random setup, and the game actually ends on a Road exploit instead of by somebody winning before this can be set up, and that player actually insists on ammassing a surplus of more than, let's say, 1000 VP, I will compensate all people involved except that time-stealing jerk by sending them free pizza in a flavor of their choice. This offer expires October 13th, 4018.

I vote to have this added to Road's text. You can clearly shrink this down though.

"In games using this, if this ruins your game, +1 Pizza"



Done.

Kudasai

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1219 on: October 13, 2018, 06:36:46 pm »
+2

Of course, there are theoretical setups where a player might want to play Road again and again for a benefit. Actually, I can only think of one, which requires Town, Page, Tournament and Travelling Fair. Each Road you play now generates one surplus Action, each such Action generates +1 coin, and coins also produce buys. So, if you now get a Road in hand, you can empty the supply. And then, you can reveal the Road, say "I empty the supply" and go on to the next game. Or if you insist to play it out, you draw your deck, put Road on the table until the cash you'll get from Diadem outbuys all the cards you need, and then go on to the next game. Again you could again argue that somebody might want to produce even more coins, and again, those don't achieve anything you don't have already, so it's the same thing as Secret Chamber to me. And if all stars align, you could even include an Event like Wedding, where infinite coins are infinite VP, and then the VP are what the coins are, they stop doing anything the ones you already have don't do, so it becomes pointless to keep on getting them. Again, Secret Chamber.

This actually would need a +1 Action token on Road to work and as Road is not in the Supply you're in the clear!

Nah, that actually does work. "All" you need is a second Champion in play.

I never would have thought to get two Champions in play. My mind is blown!

As a sign of my good will, I hereby promise, if this ever actually comes up in random setup, and the game actually ends on a Road exploit instead of by somebody winning before this can be set up, and that player actually insists on ammassing a surplus of more than, let's say, 1000 VP, I will compensate all people involved except that time-stealing jerk by sending them free pizza in a flavor of their choice. This offer expires October 13th, 4018.

I vote to have this added to Road's text. You can clearly shrink this down though.

"In games using this, if this ruins your game, +1 Pizza"



I think this officially settles any issues with Road. :)
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1220 on: October 13, 2018, 07:35:29 pm »
+1

Of course, there are theoretical setups where a player might want to play Road again and again for a benefit. Actually, I can only think of one, which requires Town, Page, Tournament and Travelling Fair. Each Road you play now generates one surplus Action, each such Action generates +1 coin, and coins also produce buys. So, if you now get a Road in hand, you can empty the supply.

What am I missing here? Assuming that Tournament is only mentioned as a way to get Diadem.. how does playing Road increase your available actions? Wouldn't it just give you 1 each time you play it, while requiring spending that 1 to play it again?

*Edit* Saw the other post; ok you could get a second Champion in play. Cool.

I agree with your points a a whole. Ever since Villa was a thing, Dominion has been able to go infinite. And in practice, there's no difference between infinite and "enough" anyway... KC+Bridge lets you buy all Provinces at once if you get a good enough hand.

If Page and Town are on the same board together, then hey, there's a combo that probably is good enough to go for... but it's not like an instant free win; it's still a race to get there first.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 07:37:45 pm by GendoIkari »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1221 on: October 13, 2018, 09:24:03 pm »
0

Of course, there are theoretical setups where a player might want to play Road again and again for a benefit. Actually, I can only think of one, which requires Town, Page, Tournament and Travelling Fair. Each Road you play now generates one surplus Action, each such Action generates +1 coin, and coins also produce buys. So, if you now get a Road in hand, you can empty the supply.

What am I missing here? Assuming that Tournament is only mentioned as a way to get Diadem.. how does playing Road increase your available actions? Wouldn't it just give you 1 each time you play it, while requiring spending that 1 to play it again?

*Edit* Saw the other post; ok you could get a second Champion in play. Cool.

I agree with your points a a whole. Ever since Villa was a thing, Dominion has been able to go infinite. And in practice, there's no difference between infinite and "enough" anyway... KC+Bridge lets you buy all Provinces at once if you get a good enough hand.

If Page and Town are on the same board together, then hey, there's a combo that probably is good enough to go for... but it's not like an instant free win; it's still a race to get there first.

Glad to hear that's how you too see it :)

Retrospectively, I could have done a better job at explaining that Champion/Road/Diadem/Travelling Fair combo.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1222 on: October 20, 2018, 08:54:34 am »
0

Apparently my Events Research and Improve as well as my Edict Exploration have the same names as official Renaissance cards/Projects.
Given that my Exploration is an Edict and Renaissance's is a Project, I guess I wasn't that far away, huh?
Any suggestions on how I could rename those three are welcome.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1223 on: October 20, 2018, 10:40:15 am »
+3

Did you guys see the leaked Renaissance names thread? Pizza is totally an official thing now; it was misspelled "Piazza".
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1224 on: October 20, 2018, 12:42:18 pm »
0

Did you guys see the leaked Renaissance names thread? Pizza is totally an official thing now; it was misspelled "Piazza".
Unless there are two, I started that thread. :P
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