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Author Topic: Asper's Cards  (Read 94174 times)

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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1100 on: May 07, 2018, 01:52:39 pm »
+1

Was going to comment, but canít seem to find Mountain village in the OP, what does it currently do?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1101 on: May 07, 2018, 02:56:07 pm »
0

Was going to comment, but canít seem to find Mountain village in the OP, what does it currently do?

He he ^^
I don't know what it is today... First I confuse Outpost with Lookout, and now I'm confusing my own Cliffside Village with a card that probably somebody else made... ;D

Cliffside Village is a Village for 5$ that also allows you to trash a card. Sorry for this. I forgot my own card name ^^'

Shows that I haven't played Dominion in ages.

Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1102 on: May 08, 2018, 11:48:50 am »
+1

Was going to comment, but canít seem to find Mountain village in the OP, what does it currently do?

He he ^^
I don't know what it is today... First I confuse Outpost with Lookout, and now I'm confusing my own Cliffside Village with a card that probably somebody else made... ;D

Cliffside Village is a Village for 5$ that also allows you to trash a card. Sorry for this. I forgot my own card name ^^'

Shows that I haven't played Dominion in ages.

It's much worse when you do this while playing a game of Dominion!

So I looked back to when you first posted Cliffside Village (btw I love the idea of people throwing things off a cliff as trashing) it didn't seem to get much feedback apart from that it was "boring" (Simple? Boring? Depends on how you look at it?) I did notice that you proposed this as a potential fix:
Cliffside Village, 5$, Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one:
+1 Action;
Trash a card from your hand
Did you ever try this? I understand that it somewhat eliminates the charm of how simple the original is and on on-gain penalty would still preserve the simple on-play effect but it does seem like a fairly appealing change to me. With this version you'd have to be more careful about adding terminals to your deck early if you're planning on Cliffside being your only source of +Action so it makes for more interesting decisions? Or it forces you to add other Villages to your deck so you're not spending those gains on other cards like you could if you were using the original version, if that makes any sense?

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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1103 on: May 09, 2018, 11:13:44 am »
+1

Hi Gazbag,

I never tried it, although now that you mention it it seems like a fine fix. It seems more bland than an on-gain bonus at first glance, but probably leads to interesting decisions still. (EDIT: Actually probably more interesting than when-gain).
That said, I will test it against some on-gain options simply because I like player interaction and positive interaction between players. It speeds the game up and suits the multiplayer IRL games that my (recently rare) Dominion sessions usually are.

Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1104 on: May 09, 2018, 02:03:04 pm »
+1

Hey!
That sounds like a fair assessment, it's kind of hard to say which on-gain looks like the best fit without playing any games with them. I do usually prefer an on-gain drawback to an on-play one though. I'd be up for some testing games in about a month or so when I'm not quite so busy with things if you're interested.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1105 on: May 09, 2018, 04:41:09 pm »
+1

I decided to add an interactive clause to Mountain (er, I mean Cliffside) Village to have it be better balanced. My considerations were giving the other players a coin token on gain (much too strong) or letting them trash a card on gain (already has been there). Also I thought about allowing them to gain a cheaper card (reverse Border Village) or allowing to discard cards to draw cards (either on gain or play, but on play seemed too slow, also it was there already). And then I thought about allowing them to gain a Copper in hand, which they'll probably just use to buy another copy, trashing the Copper later... Maybe allow them to discard two cards to put a Silver in hand on gain? That bonus combos much more poorly with other Mountain (Cliffside!) Villages, as you can sift junk away and Silver isn't the worst card ever to have in your deck. Only problem is it kind of was there already, but it has a nice theme.

Any ideas? Is there one you guys like?
Personally I like the Silver one and the gaining of cheaper cards most right now, although both have some special implications I'm not sure I like that much...

I think trashing a card is too good for others. Gaining a silver to hand, discarding two cards, is arguably better than Explorer early on, since you only end up with one less card in hand than with Explorer, but it doesnít cost an Action. I donít think the Copper one would ever be taken, aside from weird boards. A free 4$ of their choice also seems like too much, maybe if they had to discard two cards for it. Is Cliffside village really *that* strong at 5$?

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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1106 on: May 09, 2018, 05:05:57 pm »
+1

Is Cliffside village really *that* strong at 5$?
I think it is. At the first glance Junk Dealer looks stronger: Peddler is better than Village, especially when you trash early and run into economy problems. But in the later part of the game you might need a Village more and unlike Junk Dealer Cliffside Village can still be played when you are perfectly thin. Something that is of similar strength as Junk Dealer is definitely a powerhouse. Whether it warrants a nerf is a different question.

One simple Nocturnish (Blessed Village / Fool) idea would be: When you gain this, discard the top Boon. Each other player may (discard a card to) receive that Boon.
There is a 1/6 chance this does nothing (Field, Forest) and Sky is also not the greatest Boon to get when it is not your turn.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1107 on: May 10, 2018, 04:29:20 am »
0

Is Cliffside village really *that* strong at 5$?
I think it is. At the first glance Junk Dealer looks stronger: Peddler is better than Village, especially when you trash early and run into economy problems. But in the later part of the game you might need a Village more and unlike Junk Dealer Cliffside Village can still be played when you are perfectly thin. Something that is of similar strength as Junk Dealer is definitely a powerhouse. Whether it warrants a nerf is a different question.

One simple Nocturnish (Blessed Village / Fool) idea would be: When you gain this, discard the top Boon. Each other player may (discard a card to) receive that Boon.
There is a 1/6 chance this does nothing (Field, Forest) and Sky is also not the greatest Boon to get when it is not your turn.

I considered Boons for a brief time, but I really don't like them. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1108 on: May 10, 2018, 04:40:04 am »
0

I decided to add an interactive clause to Mountain (er, I mean Cliffside) Village to have it be better balanced. My considerations were giving the other players a coin token on gain (much too strong) or letting them trash a card on gain (already has been there). Also I thought about allowing them to gain a cheaper card (reverse Border Village) or allowing to discard cards to draw cards (either on gain or play, but on play seemed too slow, also it was there already). And then I thought about allowing them to gain a Copper in hand, which they'll probably just use to buy another copy, trashing the Copper later... Maybe allow them to discard two cards to put a Silver in hand on gain? That bonus combos much more poorly with other Mountain (Cliffside!) Villages, as you can sift junk away and Silver isn't the worst card ever to have in your deck. Only problem is it kind of was there already, but it has a nice theme.

Any ideas? Is there one you guys like?
Personally I like the Silver one and the gaining of cheaper cards most right now, although both have some special implications I'm not sure I like that much...

I think trashing a card is too good for others. Gaining a silver to hand, discarding two cards, is arguably better than Explorer early on, since you only end up with one less card in hand than with Explorer, but it doesnít cost an Action. I donít think the Copper one would ever be taken, aside from weird boards. A free 4$ of their choice also seems like too much, maybe if they had to discard two cards for it. Is Cliffside village really *that* strong at 5$?

Hum, I kind of assumed everyone with 4$ in hand would take the Copper in hand. After all, it's easy to get rid of it again once you have that Cliffside Village.

Personally I originally thought it was fine - after all unlike Junk Dealer, the additional Action isn't all that valuable early on. Gazbag insists it's too good. He's a better player than me and I decided that nerfing it a tiny bit couldn't hurt it enough to make it actively bad, while also potentially making it less bland. Two birds with one stone, eh? Unless you prefer that simple elegance. Tbh I believe a Cliffside Village could just as well stay as it is in the respect that it creates interesting strategies even if it is OP strong. I mean, it enables great engines, but doesn't do that much itself. But a little extra doesn't hurt and possibly makes it more fun for people who like things slightly more exciting and/or even.

Hey!
That sounds like a fair assessment, it's kind of hard to say which on-gain looks like the best fit without playing any games with them. I do usually prefer an on-gain drawback to an on-play one though. I'd be up for some testing games in about a month or so when I'm not quite so busy with things if you're interested.
Cool, I'm looking forward to it  :D

Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1109 on: May 10, 2018, 01:43:43 pm »
+1

I think Clifftop Village is in a position where it could be quite a bit weaker and it would still be strong. I do think it can stand to be this powerful though, as a trashing+Village card it'll never dominate in a scripted way like e.g. Rebuild can, it's just a very efficient card imo. But some kind of nerf should make the game play more diverse and fun I think.

I don't think there's much disagreement about it being a strong card, but maybe it's also worth mentioning that trashing and village are quite synergistic which I do think is quite significant here.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1110 on: May 10, 2018, 02:24:25 pm »
+1

The problem is that you rarely want to pay 5$ for your villages. So the first two or so are really good buys, but afterwards you are paying a lot to enable your engine, assuming there are no other villages around.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1111 on: May 10, 2018, 02:30:55 pm »
+2

The problem is that you rarely want to pay 5$ for your villages. So the first two or so are really good buys, but afterwards you are paying a lot to enable your engine, assuming there are no other villages around.

That's a big assumption, though. If there are other villages around, Clifftop Village is a no-brainer, since it's a cantrip trasher that also functions as a village, and then remains a village afterward. Junk Dealer doesn't turn into a Peddler once you're done with it, and it's one of the strongest $5 cards in the game.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1112 on: May 10, 2018, 02:55:28 pm »
+1

Yes and you have absolutely no reason to buy Junk Dealer when you're done with it, so even though $5 for a Village is overpriced it's still better than nothing.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1113 on: May 10, 2018, 03:59:30 pm »
+2

The problem is that you rarely want to pay 5$ for your villages. So the first two or so are really good buys, but afterwards you are paying a lot to enable your engine, assuming there are no other villages around.

That's a big assumption, though. If there are other villages around, Clifftop Village is a no-brainer, since it's a cantrip trasher that also functions as a village, and then remains a village afterward. Junk Dealer doesn't turn into a Peddler once you're done with it, and it's one of the strongest $5 cards in the game.

The difference is that the village part (of Cliffsde) is doing nothing at the beginning of the game, while the Peddler part (of Junk Dealer) is doing something. At the beginning of the game, Cliffside village is just a barely better 5$ ratcatcher.

Donít get me wrong, I am not arguing that Cliffside shouldnít cost 5$, I am arguing that I donít think it needs an extra cost/disadvantage on gain.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1114 on: May 12, 2018, 04:37:22 am »
+1

To me, it's like this: I mostly believe that Cliffside Village is fine as is. However, some people think it's too strong and some people think it's too bland. Adding some small (!) Disadvantage is an attempt to please these people.

Alternatively, I could add a setup clause that changes the game in a way which makes Cliffside Village less relevant without harming the card itself. Like "each player puts their plan token on (some base card pile like Gold)." or "each player replaces a starting Estate (or Shelter of their choice) with a Copper."

That would be more gentle as a nerf, simply because it makes getting this trasher slightly less useful (and more accessible). If none of these is satisfying, well, I'm fine with it being Village-Chapel.
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