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Author Topic: Asper's Cards  (Read 99968 times)

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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1050 on: January 28, 2018, 09:41:49 pm »
+3

Cute, but probably too strong as is? Spirits are quite underpriced.

I would phrase it "when you gain this, gain two Spirits from their respective piles, with a total cost of up to 4$", sounds kinda weird the way you have it now.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1051 on: January 29, 2018, 12:06:48 am »
+2

Cute, but probably too strong as is? Spirits are quite underpriced.

I would phrase it "when you gain this, gain two Spirits from their respective piles, with a total cost of up to 4$", sounds kinda weird the way you have it now.

Yeah, I figured it might need to cost 6$. On the other hand, it's a stop card itself.

I phrased it that way to make clear what your options are if Will-O-Wisps are out. Edit: I think I could just make it "up to 2 Spirits" and then use your wording to achieve the same effect. Has the added bonus of not forcing people to take Wisps or additional Imps in those cases where they don't want any.

Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1052 on: January 29, 2018, 12:22:26 pm »
+1

I love all the Spirits so by extension I like what Lair is trying to do.

My main worry is that there are only 6 Ghosts. It doesn't seem like too much of a problem in 2-player but in 3+ player it would be sad that there are 12 Lairs but only half of them can get Ghosts. I suppose with this being a fan card you can just play with more than 6 Ghosts if you want. Ghost is also super strong so it might be too good to get Ghost+Wisp on this, but getting the Victory card should balance that enough... maybe.

I do like the idea of a Victory card that comes with some strong good cards, I actually have a similar idea that I'm thinking about at the moment. It's an action that you can gain for free when you gain an Estate, like a Duchess but you want the action so you buy an Estate to get it for cheap. I haven't really thought of a good card to put that on yet though.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1053 on: January 29, 2018, 12:37:06 pm »
0

I love all the Spirits so by extension I like what Lair is trying to do.

My main worry is that there are only 6 Ghosts. It doesn't seem like too much of a problem in 2-player but in 3+ player it would be sad that there are 12 Lairs but only half of them can get Ghosts. I suppose with this being a fan card you can just play with more than 6 Ghosts if you want. Ghost is also super strong so it might be too good to get Ghost+Wisp on this, but getting the Victory card should balance that enough... maybe.

I do like the idea of a Victory card that comes with some strong good cards, I actually have a similar idea that I'm thinking about at the moment. It's an action that you can gain for free when you gain an Estate, like a Duchess but you want the action so you buy an Estate to get it for cheap. I haven't really thought of a good card to put that on yet though.

My consideration here was, the earlier you get those Lairs, the more they themselves will be in your way. Two Imps are probably not as good as a Ghost and a Wisp, but later in the game the VP portion is going to matter more. So I felt it kind of evens out. I'm just glad that without other cards that gain Spirits, there will be enough (though not the same) for everyone.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1054 on: January 29, 2018, 02:34:02 pm »
+2

Here's the updated VP version of Lair. I also developed an Action version of it, but somehow I really wanted the card to be a VP card and decided for the version posted first. Thinking about it a bit more, it's slightly redundant to Cemetary in that it's a VP-Card with an on-gain ability that allows you to gain Ghosts. So, here's an Action version that does the opposite, too.

Chappy7

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1055 on: January 29, 2018, 04:12:58 pm »
+2

I think I'd still buy the VP Lair for $7.  As for the action lair, it, being an action card and a $2 card, can help imp and wisp, but you totally don't want it to be what your Ghost finds, so maybe it evens out, but getting an Imp for $4 seems really really strong.  I'm not sure what to think about this one.
I really like another way to get spirits though.  This seems like a fun card.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1056 on: January 29, 2018, 05:20:31 pm »
+3

The Action one seems pretty broken to me. Wisp+a free cantrip for $2 is insane! Or can you not pay $0? I'm pretty sure you can?
Imp+ free cantrip seems amazing for $4 too, same for Ghost at $6, I think this should cost $3 at least.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1057 on: January 29, 2018, 05:25:11 pm »
+2

Lair seems particularly OP at because it can be drawn by Wisps. Filling your deck with Wisps and Lairs seems to be a very good strategy, especially with cheap buys such as Candlestick Maker. Druid + Swamp's Gift is good enough already!
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1058 on: January 29, 2018, 05:44:20 pm »
+1

Lair seems particularly OP at because it can be drawn by Wisps. Filling your deck with Wisps and Lairs seems to be a very good strategy, especially with cheap buys such as Candlestick Maker. Druid + Swamp's Gift is good enough already!

Yeah that's what I was thinking when I said it was insane, even though I forgot to say it. I also gives you a differently named card to go with Imp.

Cantrips are even deece to get with Ghost because start of turn +cards and +actions is great.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1059 on: January 29, 2018, 06:18:42 pm »
+2

I feel like the action Lair is too strong, but I would have to see it play to be sure. Imp+Cantrip for 4$ in particular seems like it might be too much.

Then again, strength by itself is not necessarily a problem, if it leads to fun games, which might be the case here.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1060 on: January 29, 2018, 07:46:38 pm »
0

Well, the reason why it costs 2$ is exactly to have it interact with Wisp. I also wanted it to be gainable, which is why I used another wording than overpay (as you can't overpay 0$). Although, I guess I could use standard overpay if I re-word it Exorcist-style, which would also increase the opportunity cost a bit:



It's worse than Lab when buying it for Imp, but not even strictly, so I guess it's just fine.

Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1061 on: January 30, 2018, 02:04:11 am »
+1

This version looks fine. It is hard to judge how muih Spirits should cost as Kingdom cards, not at least because they were never designed as Kingdom cards, but my rough guess is that Ghost is a 6/7, that Imp is a very good 4 (obviously it cannot cost 5) and that Wish is a 3.
The only issue seems to be the synergy between Lair and Wisps in game without trashing. Wisp is guaranteed to be a Lab if you open double Lair/Wisp and even when you then buy more expensive cards it will ore often be a Lab than not (and you might not want to buy that many expensive cards when you can get a Lab for 3).
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1062 on: January 30, 2018, 02:50:35 pm »
+1

Here's a version that I hope makes Lair less Wisp-centered: It now costs too much to be picked up itself and you can't open double-Wisp:





Also, that Event-for-State thing. It's funny how I saw several people do similar things, but never (to my knowledge) just "Adventures tokens that don't care about cards". There are 6 copies of the State, of course. It's mostly a "proof of concept" thing, but feel free to assess whether perma-chancellor is broken (at 6$).

Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1063 on: January 30, 2018, 05:02:55 pm »
+3

I question the flavour of Luck/Lucky, I mean have you seen Chancellors face? That guy is anything but lucky, they even removed him-one of the unluckiest cards ever for sure! I actually believe Donald X. removed the Chancellor effect from Moon's Gift so there could be no association between the true luckiest card Fool and Chancellor.

I doubt Lucky is broken, I suspect that at $6 it would share a similar problem to Royal Seal. That is that foregoing buying a $6 card will probably slow you down more than the Chancelloring will speed you up. Not that that's a bad thing, I'm sure it's good in some situations which is better than it being good in every situation. I also wouldn't be surprised if I'm way off and it's actually super good.

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Chappy7

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1064 on: January 30, 2018, 05:08:51 pm »
+1

The discard deck after cleanup effect seems like it would be much better than Chancellor's version, just because of the timing.  Although, this isn't so lucky once you are in full green mode.  I don't think I'd buy this often? But I easily could be wrong.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1065 on: January 30, 2018, 09:09:08 pm »
+1

Well, I originally wanted to do something about "chance". So there you go, flavor-wise. I thought about costing it at 5$, and at 4$ before that. So I have a hard time judging stength here, myself. If I compare it to Hireling, which has an even higher opportunity cost to get going, I feel like always having those new-bought cards at your disposal might not be all that much worse - even though it kind of falls flat as soon as you green. Huh. Maybe 5$ would be okay after all...

Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1066 on: January 31, 2018, 04:35:19 am »
+1

In my opinion Chancellor is a high-skill card: you have to constantly track your deck to know whether discarding your deck makes sense or whether you want to wait for a particular, most likely singular card that you will draw next turn.
6 seems expensive to me but due to the above I am probably underestimating the strength of the Chancellor effect and 5 or 6 is not such a huge difference. 4 would definitely be too cheap.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1067 on: February 11, 2018, 05:38:22 am »
0

It just occurred to me that if you have Lady-in-waiting and Inheritance on the board, the Lady enables you to have Reserve-Estates ready to be called from the get-go. But it raised a rules question: If I inherit Duplicate or Lady-in-Waiting itself and put a freshly gained Estate on the Tavern Mat, should that Duplicate be able to trigger on its own gaining? If yes, Inherited Ladies would allow me to chain one Estate gain into emptying (and trashing most of) the Estate pile. Are there examples on official cards triggering on an event they caused? It's not infinite obviously, but I don't think I recall this happening for any official cards.

Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1068 on: February 11, 2018, 09:57:55 am »
+1

It just occurred to me that if you have Lady-in-waiting and Inheritance on the board, the Lady enables you to have Reserve-Estates ready to be called from the get-go. But it raised a rules question: If I inherit Duplicate or Lady-in-Waiting itself and put a freshly gained Estate on the Tavern Mat, should that Duplicate be able to trigger on its own gaining? If yes, Inherited Ladies would allow me to chain one Estate gain into emptying (and trashing most of) the Estate pile. Are there examples on official cards triggering on an event they caused? It's not infinite obviously, but I don't think I recall this happening for any official cards.

You have to Inherit Duplicate for this to work, so you'd have to have a bunch of regular Ladies-in-Waiting on the mat and then I believe the rules are that you can put the Estate on the mat and then call it from the mat as Duplicate to gain another Estate and then trash a Lady and continue until you run out of Ladies. If you inherit Lady-in-waiting and have a bunch of Estates on the mat then you can trash one of those Estates to put the freshly gained Estate on the mat, but that seems a bit pointless. I wouldn't worry about Duplicate because it's a 3 card "combo" which will rarely happen and it needs quite a lot of setup anyway.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1069 on: February 11, 2018, 03:33:10 pm »
0

Man, I don't know how, but somehow in my mind I combined the abilities of Lady-in-Waiting and Duplicate, which would have enabled an inherited Estate to set off a gain-chain. Oopsie.

Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1070 on: March 19, 2018, 01:53:55 pm »
+1

Okay so yesterday I wrote a massive post going through all of your cards because it was snowy and I had nothing else to do, and I was just finishing it off this afternoon instead of doing work because I'm an idiot and I accidentally deleted it instead of posting it. So I'll try and just write something shorter on a few cards I had any real problems with. I was literally up to Urbanisation!!!  :'(

Sheriff: Seems too strong, I think it needs to cost at least $3. You can get one of these for $4 on the opening and then one for $5 on the second shuffle and that gives you 5 tokens so it's kinda like you've bought a terminal Silver curser for $4 which seems a little too good for me.

Farmer: This seems like it is to Journeyman what Oracle is to Catacombs, so I thinm it can get away with being $3.

Town/Road: This seems like a pretty clear $5 to me. Playing a Town and then Road is better than Lab! Sure, you have to draw them together for that to happen, but this can even just be a regular Village or a Smithy if you double play the Road. I think all this extra functionality makes up for the early unreliability. The Road gain isn't even mandatory!

Cliffside Village: This is incredibly powerful, but you probably realise that. Better than Junk Dealer easily, villages are great.

Necromancer/Zombie: I don't think a kingdom pile based around the Rogue/Graverobber+Knights interaction is a good idea. These game would never end!

Tribunal: I'd be careful about this, the attack seems like it could be very frustrating! I imagine Tribunal big money to be particularly agonising!

Minister: It's probably broken, but all the cost reduction cards are so I guess it just join the party!

Improve: I think this should just be remodel, not expand. Trashing an Estate to gain a $4 is similar to Summon and Seaway as a thing where you're spending $5 on a $4 but getting some other benefit. Trashing one to get a $5 has basically no decision involved because it's almost always going to be better than buying the $5.

I had plenty of other small thoughts, too lazy right now.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1071 on: March 19, 2018, 09:37:49 pm »
+2

Town/Road: This seems like a pretty clear $5 to me. Playing a Town and then Road is better than Lab! Sure, you have to draw them together for that to happen, but this can even just be a regular Village or a Smithy if you double play the Road. I think all this extra functionality makes up for the early unreliability. The Road gain isn't even mandatory!

I'm not seeing it. A clunky Lab can absolutely be priced at $4 (See Caravan, Advisor.) The Smithy effect is something you usually don't want, because it means you drew a Road without the corresponding Town. Also, the main reason to not gain the Road is if there's a better terminal draw you want to use. If that's the case, wouldn't it, well, kind of suck if the only village on the board is $5 but is just a Vanillage?
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1072 on: March 19, 2018, 10:08:45 pm »
+1

Back in the days, I was arguing that Road, by itself, should cost at least 5$ :p
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1073 on: March 19, 2018, 10:35:18 pm »
+1

Town/Road: This seems like a pretty clear $5 to me. Playing a Town and then Road is better than Lab! Sure, you have to draw them together for that to happen, but this can even just be a regular Village or a Smithy if you double play the Road. I think all this extra functionality makes up for the early unreliability. The Road gain isn't even mandatory!

I'm not seeing it. A clunky Lab can absolutely be priced at $4 (See Caravan, Advisor.) The Smithy effect is something you usually don't want, because it means you drew a Road without the corresponding Town. Also, the main reason to not gain the Road is if there's a better terminal draw you want to use. If that's the case, wouldn't it, well, kind of suck if the only village on the board is $5 but is just a Vanillage?

It isn't a clunky Lab though, I can tell you with 100% confidence as a mid-high skill dominion player that I would buy this over Lab about 99% of the time. Like, lining up a Road and Town isn't clunky at all, it's just like any other terminal draw+village engine but much easier because you're getting the terminal draw for free, so you can spend more gains on Villages (that come with free draw!!!).

Okay, think about it this way, if you play Town and then play your Road twice, that's the same net result as playing a Smithy. You increase your handsize by 2 and have a net -1 Actions. So you could build a deck where you buy these instead of Smithies and buy whatever other village is there, just like building a regular Village+Smithy deck but subbing Town+Roads as Smithies. Now you have twice as many Villages in your deck compared to one using Smithies because Town+Road is like a "deconstructed" Smithy, so you're much more likely to find a village in your opening 5 cards and so you're much less likely to have a dud turn. This isn't even considering all the extra utility the Town+Road combination has, like just playing the Road once or playing the same Road 3 or even more times. Because Road isn't just turning your Towns into Labs (or Smithies), it's effectively converting any +1 Action you have into +1 Card. And we haven't yet even considered that the road gain isn't mandatory, so you have the option of using Town as a vanilla village too, which sure by itself would be lacklustre for $5 but that's just another option you have, it's pure upside. This is barely even scratching the surface of how flexible this card is, it has all sorts of interactions with other cards and such. It's actually better than what I've described anyway because that Road is always returning to your hand, so in combination with a Warehouse it's effectively giving you a free +1 Card, even if you don't play it again, there are countless things like that. If you still aren't convinced by this wall I can continue talking about this, there's plenty more to say.

tl;dr I'm right, fight me.

Back in the days, I was arguing that Road, by itself, should cost at least 5$ :p

That seems more reasonable to me, but $5 or $6 in the current form would be okay.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1074 on: March 19, 2018, 10:52:37 pm »
+2

Your math is off?

Okay, think about it this way, if you play Town and then play your Road twice, that's the same net result as playing a Smithy. You increase your handsize by 2 and have a net -1 Actions.

Increases your handsize by four, so it's equivalent to a Royal Blacksmith. Even ignoring the Road that comes back to your hand in the end, that's still increasing your handsize by three, so equivalent to Hunting Grounds.

Quote
Because Road isn't just turning your Towns into Labs (or Smithies), it's effectively converting any +1 Action you have into +1 Card.

Into TWO cards.
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