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Author Topic: Asper's Cards  (Read 90113 times)

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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1000 on: November 12, 2017, 04:39:22 pm »
+2

Another option would be to make it a Duration card, and gain cards as the next player does. Something like
Code: [Select]
At the beginning of next turn: bonus.
[hr]
While this card is in play, when the player to your left gains a card, you might gain {a copy of that card/a cheaper card that shares a type with it/etc}

This version has no tracking issues, no "compounding gain" problem, but having more than one in play means that the other player will likely just forgo their turn, since it's simply benefiting you more than them.

I thought about a Duration variant like this. I discarded the idea because of the issue you mentioned: In a game with more than 2 players, you make a political, asymmetrical decision to forego your turn.

"At the start of Clean-Up of the player to your right, you may call this, to gain a copy of every card they gained during their {turn/buy phase}, then trash this"

If you go for "buy phase", then it's quite a bit weaker, but has limited tracking issues. If you go for turn, it's stronger but has worse tracking issues. Regardless, the fact that you have to trash it means that, even though the other player knows that you can call it, you only get to do so once, so just like with Torturer, you have to take the Curse eventually.
Freeloader - Reaction
When the player to your right has most recently gained a card, you may reveal this to gain a copy of that card.

I considered a Reaction version that you use at the end of the left player's buy phase, too. It needs to track less long, but on the other hand, it's nonterminal in a way. That's what I didn't like about it. I guess a Reserve would work, but if it's supposed to be a "Possession replacement", making it a Reserve isn't really an option. The idea was to do something players who hate Possession could put inside their Alchemy set to replace it.

About the card being a one-shot, this would mean you have to cost it much lower, which means it becomes more like Smuggler and less like Possession. Admittedly, I kind of tried to keep with the "insanely expensive" aspect of the original card.

I tend to believe that you can do a card that takes something another player gained before, but it'd have to look more like a Smuggler variant than like a Possession variant to really work out. And we already have Outpost to cover the other aspect of Possession, the extra turn thing. Maybe accepting that Smugglers works and Outpost kinda works is enough.

Toll - Reaction
When another player gains a non-Victory card, you may discard this to gain a copy of that card to your hand.

That works. It's actually a card Co0kieL0rd already did, though. His had added VP value, but apart from that, it was the same. I tend to believe you are right in your assessment on the possibility of a good Possession replacement that still keeps the spirit of Possession. It's probably impossible because the spirit of Possession is just not that great.

pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1001 on: November 12, 2017, 05:44:26 pm »
+2

How about something completely different:

Code: [Select]
Possession
Event: 6P
Place one of your Possession tokens on each of three different supply piles.
[hr]
When another player gains a card from a supply pile during their turn, you may remove one of your Possession tokens from that pile to gain a copy of it.

Obviously no idea whether it's balanced or not, mostly giving different directions in which the idea of a super smuggler could go. The idea is that you can only spend one Possession token per gain, but I am not sure I phrased that correctly to convey that. Making it an event makes it harder to spam, though it does mean it comes online faster. Main balance problem I could see is that, as an event, it's almost strictly better than buying a Province, so tweaking is probably necessary.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1002 on: November 12, 2017, 06:00:38 pm »
+2

How about something completely different:

Code: [Select]
Possession
Event: 6P
Place one of your Possession tokens on each of three different supply piles.
[hr]
When another player gains a card from a supply pile during their turn, you may remove one of your Possession tokens from that pile to gain a copy of it.

Obviously no idea whether it's balanced or not, mostly giving different directions in which the idea of a super smuggler could go. The idea is that you can only spend one Possession token per gain, but I am not sure I phrased that correctly to convey that. Making it an event makes it harder to spam, though it does mean it comes online faster. Main balance problem I could see is that, as an event, it's almost strictly better than buying a Province, so tweaking is probably necessary.

It's a fresh idea and could bring us somewhere, but as it is I'm afraid that it will make people shy away from the piles they'd like to buy and buying ePossession instead, leading to the usual Possession bore. It also has a small potential of being political, since it links supply piles to specific players.
If you limited Possession tokens to three per player, you'd avoid the better-than-Province issue, the accumulation of tokens, and the wording issue.

It's the Possession replacement that I'd be most interested in trying.
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spiralstaircase

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1003 on: November 13, 2017, 03:15:17 am »
+1

Another option would be to make it a Duration card, and gain cards as the next player does. Something like
Code: [Select]
At the beginning of next turn: bonus.
[hr]
While this card is in play, when the player to your left gains a card, you might gain {a copy of that card/a cheaper card that shares a type with it/etc}
This version has no tracking issues, no "compounding gain" problem, but having more than one in play means that the other player will likely just forgo their turn, since it's simply benefiting you more than them.

Something similar occurred to me, but I had it as:

Code: [Select]
+1 Buy
Move your possession token to the player to your left.

(Whenever a player buys a card, if they have your possession token, you may take back your token to gain a copy of that card.  If they buy a victory card, you must do so.)

By making it a token that you move and move back, you avoid having to think about multiples.  By making it mandatory for victory cards, the possessed player has some agency; if they hit $10, they could give you both an Estate before buying their Province.  For that to be possible, they need +Buy, so the card gives you +Buy.  I also toyed with having the card move all the possession tokens in front of you, which feels like it would be interesting in multi-player.

I don't think this version is worth 6P, but I don't mind that.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1004 on: November 14, 2017, 08:09:09 am »
+2

Played two games with Navical today. One had Sorcerer and Stone Circle as well as the Glory spell, while the other had Lady in Waiting. Both times I tried going for the "let VP cards not swamp my deck" strategy, and both times I lost to Navical pulling a megaturn. Highway and Sorcerer in the first game, Horn of Plenty in the second. It was nice to see a clear type of deck where Glory and the Lady are basically useless, because I was worried they (especially Glory) were too strong.

Also, thanks for the game  :)

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1005 on: December 01, 2017, 04:38:11 pm »
+1

After thinking about this back and forth, I have decided to settle with Blessing being an Edict after all. I was proud of it working as an Event, and everybody who doesn't care about Edicts can just as well use the Event, no harm. But for me personally, I feel the Edict is better in that it is much harder to forget if you do the effect at the start of your turn. You sit there, waiting to go, and know the plan. You don't go into your buy phase, have 5$, buy a Lab, and oops, I screwed up. So yeah. I'll go into mocking up Graces sooner or later once I have a state template.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1006 on: December 01, 2017, 05:49:08 pm »
+1

Just use the SHiT one. It looks pretty hard to replicate accurately.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1007 on: December 10, 2017, 07:27:54 pm »
0

Had a 5P(!) IRL game the day before yesterday, with Heir, Farmer, Town, Sawmill, Scientist, Royal Blacksmith, City Quarter, Castles, Forum and Courtier.

It was really long, but still we somehow had fun. I won using Town+Sawmill to bloat my deck with Action cards in this trashing-free, buy-low kingdom and then managed to get a few megaturns kickstarted by City Quarters, to draw my single Castle (small Castle) with Courtier. Town/City Quarter was interesting: Not only does the gaining of two Action cards at once improve your City Quarters, Town also goes back to your hand after you play it, bumping City Quarter a bit more. And even the Towns you draw dead help you a bit this way. I still think we all played rather poorly, but it was nice to see that my significant other liked Heir and Town quite a bit. The statement of a friend on Scientist was "Aren't there some funds he can use to finance his research?".

Also, one thing was that we all overestimated Courtier at first, given that it's flexible and can gain a Gold or give +3$ at worst. But well, you really needed either the terminal space or some type-rich cards, and somehow we didn't manage to make that work well even with Castles around. One mess of a game, but still fun.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1008 on: December 14, 2017, 07:06:25 am »
0

Anyone got any idea whether it's legally reasonable to post your own boardgame design on a webforum like these or BGG? I have made a little thing and would both love to stirr up some interest and get feedback (and if people have fun on the way, that doesn't hurt, right?), but I don't want to run into "this isn't fully yours now" territory. Maybe that's irrational.

If it makes a difference, I am not yet sure whether I want to have the work to go the crowdfunding course, or run the danger to have my game significantly altered by a publisher.

pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1009 on: December 14, 2017, 01:22:36 pm »
+1

I have no idea about your actual question, but I am curious, are you really considering publishing the game yourself, or would crowdfunding just lead to a print-and-play? Because that would be a huge undertaking, especially if you have no background in publishing. I would say finding a publisher is more reasonable. Even if they change the game to something you donít recognize anymore, you will have more experience for the next time you have a game idea.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1010 on: December 14, 2017, 02:02:51 pm »
0

I have no idea about your actual question, but I am curious, are you really considering publishing the game yourself, or would crowdfunding just lead to a print-and-play? Because that would be a huge undertaking, especially if you have no background in publishing. I would say finding a publisher is more reasonable. Even if they change the game to something you donít recognize anymore, you will have more experience for the next time you have a game idea.

Yes, admittedly the sheer work of putting out a game by myself is very scary. I felt it might be less work considering I have basically drawn everything already (it's a simple, silly look), so I'm pretty much already at a "print-and-play" state in that sense. It's only lacking a little balancing and coloring, but it's nor really a high game - more of a little silly dice game with a bit of dark humor. What really worries me is advertizing and generating interest, because I'm no good at that and even dislike spending time for this kind of thing. My main problem is that the game isn't really something I can propose to the regular German publisher, because I don't think they'll dig the humor. So that's why I wanted to have some additional feedback, to help me decide whether it was good enough to put out, to a publisher, or even just as print & play. Existing little game > nonexisting great game.

pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1011 on: December 14, 2017, 03:52:31 pm »
+1

I think getting it published through a publisher is better than crowdfunding a print-and-play, which is better than crowdfunding the whole game. The last one requires that you manage too many things: advertising, production, delivery, budgeting and pricing... Too many things can go wrong, and then you are the only one responsible for it. Even if everything goes reasonably well, you stand to lose money if the pricing is incorrect, how much disposable income do you have?

Going through a publisher is by far the better choice. Note how most successful game kickstarters were done by a team of people with previous experience in this domain. Print-and-play would be ok, I don't know how popular those are though.

So uh going back to the original question, I guess it would depend on the publisher. As far as I can tell, you can't patent or register game mechanics, so posting the rules online does nothing to change your (always non-existent) claim on them. But a publisher might be unhappy about it though, that sounds like a potential risk. In your situation, I would post them somewhere hard to find, and take them down when a publisher starts showing interest (or even earlier), but I have no idea whether that would lead to problems down the line or not.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1012 on: December 14, 2017, 05:42:59 pm »
+2

Thanks pacovf, that sounds very reasonable. Thank you for taking the time to think about this. In retrospect, all these points seem so obvious to me that I'm ashamed I had to ask. So thank you even more for taking the time to answer my rather oblivious question. I think I will go with trying to find a publisher, which in turn means that I think I should share it with individual people, but not post it online.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1013 on: December 15, 2017, 07:15:29 am »
+4

My main problem is that the game isn't really something I can propose to the regular German publisher, because I don't think they'll dig the humor.

If you go to the site of satire magazine 'Der Postillon', there's usually advertisements for 'non-politically correct' games ('Minderheitenquartett'). I have no knowledge about the publisher behind that, but it is safe to say that they are comfortable with humor you would never get past a major family-oriented publisher.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1014 on: December 15, 2017, 10:00:49 am »
0

My main problem is that the game isn't really something I can propose to the regular German publisher, because I don't think they'll dig the humor.

If you go to the site of satire magazine 'Der Postillon', there's usually advertisements for 'non-politically correct' games ('Minderheitenquartett'). I have no knowledge about the publisher behind that, but it is safe to say that they are comfortable with humor you would never get past a major family-oriented publisher.

Right, I know about Minderheitenquartett. I always kinda assumed it was a self-published thing by the creators. But I'll check again, and maybe they're the place to go. On the other hand, even though my game has a few dark spots, it's not something with a generally dark or controversial theme, so maybe it doesn't fit there, either. I kind of envisioned a US publisher, but I that doesn't exclude trying them for Germany. Thank you :)

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1015 on: December 15, 2017, 11:09:11 am »
+2

After checking, it looks like both publishers I had in mind (including the Minderheitenquartett one) are basically publishing their own stuff. I'll approach them either way, I guess.

pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1016 on: December 15, 2017, 03:17:15 pm »
+1

After checking, it looks like both publishers I had in mind (including the Minderheitenquartett one) are basically publishing their own stuff. I'll approach them either way, I guess.

You can always ask for tips about how to get your stuff published too, if they say they aren't interested in publishing third party games. They will likely have more insight than any of us.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1017 on: January 09, 2018, 11:24:54 am »
+1

I didn't get to make the State cards I wanted to do, as I don't have access to a nice template yet. I'm sure there's a lot of space with States, especially States given by Events (in the sense that the State is not card-bound, like the Adventures tokens are).

But for now, some minor ideas. I'm not sure what exactly Invention should do, but for now I was content with them being un-trashable to enable tfb, and making it impossible to get rid of them, so they keep screwing with terminal draw in general. Although, thinking of it, Inventor's presence alone already makes other terminal draw less desirable overall. Ah well.


Also, here's the "spend remaining coins" Night card that I believed Nocturne would have but turned out not to have.


Science++

Edit: Convert doesn't have the expansion symbol because it uses the fabulous card image generator. Edited Convert to say "exactly".

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1018 on: January 09, 2018, 11:51:22 am »
+4

Anyone got any idea whether it's legally reasonable to post your own boardgame design on a webforum like these or BGG? I have made a little thing and would both love to stirr up some interest and get feedback (and if people have fun on the way, that doesn't hurt, right?), but I don't want to run into "this isn't fully yours now" territory. Maybe that's irrational.

If it makes a difference, I am not yet sure whether I want to have the work to go the crowdfunding course, or run the danger to have my game significantly altered by a publisher.

In the United States, the idea and methods of a game are not copyrightable.  So if you put your stuff online, anyone could steal your ideas and publish them themselves.  They could also just as easily do that once you've published the game.  Things that are covered by copyright are specific expressions of the ideas in your game.  That could include artwork, the rulebook text, the exact wordings on the cards, etc.

This is how "Words with Friends" gets away with basically being Scrabble.  Note that "Words with Friends" did change the board from what is used in Scrabble, anticipating the possible argument that the layout of the Scrabble board could be considered part of the artwork.

See: https://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.pdf
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1019 on: January 09, 2018, 12:01:33 pm »
+3

So I was thinking about Convert a bit today, I think it maybe compares too well to Salvager with it being non-terminal? The effect of trashing a card and then spending money to upgrade it is very similar to getting +$ equal to it's cost and +1 buy. Maybe making the gain mandatory so it's worse at Copper trashing would make it enough worse? You can still spend $1 and fail to gain something costing exactly $1.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1020 on: January 09, 2018, 12:17:15 pm »
+1

Anyone got any idea whether it's legally reasonable to post your own boardgame design on a webforum like these or BGG? I have made a little thing and would both love to stirr up some interest and get feedback (and if people have fun on the way, that doesn't hurt, right?), but I don't want to run into "this isn't fully yours now" territory. Maybe that's irrational.

If it makes a difference, I am not yet sure whether I want to have the work to go the crowdfunding course, or run the danger to have my game significantly altered by a publisher.

In the United States, the idea and methods of a game are not copyrightable.  So if you put your stuff online, anyone could steal your ideas and publish them themselves.  They could also just as easily do that once you've published the game.  Things that are covered by copyright are specific expressions of the ideas in your game.  That could include artwork, the rulebook text, the exact wordings on the cards, etc.

This is how "Words with Friends" gets away with basically being Scrabble.  Note that "Words with Friends" did change the board from what is used in Scrabble, anticipating the possible argument that the layout of the Scrabble board could be considered part of the artwork.

See: https://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.pdf

Thanks a lot, this has been really helpful information  :)

So I was thinking about Convert a bit today, I think it maybe compares too well to Salvager with it being non-terminal? The effect of trashing a card and then spending money to upgrade it is very similar to getting +$ equal to it's cost and +1 buy. Maybe making the gain mandatory so it's worse at Copper trashing would make it enough worse? You can still spend $1 and fail to gain something costing exactly $1.
You are right, it is indeed very similar to Salvager. Thanks, I didn't think of that. Back to the drawing board...

Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1021 on: January 12, 2018, 03:07:52 pm »
+1

I've thought over Inventor and Invention a bit now, Inventor seems like it would be a very good $5 Smithy variant on it's own. Probably not as good as the broken trio (Margrave, Torturer and Wild Hunt) but better than the others. I understand that the Inventions are meant to screw with terminal draw, but they kind of just turn Inventors into Lab/Smithy split cards. Terminal draw also just isn't good very often anyway, even by big money standards.

Trash for benefit doesn't really need much to be the best payload on any board, so I feel like Inventor/Invention will just make the good things better and the bad things worse?

Although this is coming from the viewpoint of a competitive player, it could be possible that Inventor messes with things for less serious players and enables crazy things for serious players though.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1022 on: January 13, 2018, 01:17:59 am »
0

Yeah, I think neither of these ideas was all that good. I also just realized that my first draft of Convert (not posted here, but perhaps you saw it in TTS), which discards cards and costs 5$, was already considered by Donald and is an outtake.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1023 on: January 20, 2018, 01:18:52 pm »
+1

I feel pretty dumb for not thinking of this version before... It now can't trash Estates anymore, but can instead use the money of cards it trashes. I have absolutely no idea whether it's still too strong. Probably it is...?

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1024 on: January 20, 2018, 01:48:26 pm »
+3

Now you can play a card and remodel it on the same turn. You can play a Gold and use the coins from the Gold to remodel it into a province, with $1 left over, and it's non-terminal. Seems way too good compared to Salvager and Remodel.
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