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Asper

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Asper's Cards
« on: August 24, 2013, 12:25:40 pm »
+42

I created these over the course of several years with the main goal to bring original but relatively easy to understand concepts to life. The cards can be split up into several groups:
  • Dominion Legacy: Cards and Events using existing game mechanics, but in new ways. This is the biggest bulk. (Cog icon)
  • Fame cards: A minor mechanic about cards that get better if the player fulfilled certain "Feats" tracked on a board (Also cog icon).
  • Spellcasters: Cards that allow you to "cast" Spells that you previously bought. (Wand icon)
  • Seasons (created by Co0kieL0rd and me): Cards that change over the course of the game. (Hourglass icon)
  • Team Dominion: Cards created for a Dominion variant that has players team up against each other. (Shaking hands icon)
  • Edicts: Sideways cards that introduce straight-up rules changes. These predate Projects, by the way.


Format:
Card Name
Cost
Types
Text
-
Under-the-line texts



Legacy
These are cards that use existing mechanics. No real new rules.




















(predates Allies)















(predates Nocturne, was called Necromancer, and now I'm bored of changing its name)
(my Necromancer also came with Zombies starting in the trash, howaboutthat, I renamed those, too)
(you have three guesses how this card was called before Nocturne)


















Events
These are just some new Events.

Blessing
0
Event
Once per turn: +1 Buy; Trash a card from your hand.


Tithe
0
Event
Once per turn: You may trash an Action card from your hand, for +1 Buy, +$2


Synthesis
P
Event
Once per turn: +1 Buy; Name a card. When you discard copies of that card from play this turn, you may put them onto your deck.


Plundering
2
Event
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.


Exodus
3
Event
If at least one Supply pile is empty, gain a non-Victory card costing up to $5.


Parting
3
Event
Flip your Journey Token over. If it is face-up, gain a card costing up to $5.


Buerocracy
5
Event
Move your Bureaucracy Token to another Supply pile. (When you gain a card from a pile with your Bureaucracy Token on it, put it onto your deck).
Setup: Each player puts their Bureaucracy Token on the Province pile.


Improve
5
Event
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $3 more than it.


Sale
6
Event
+1 Coffers; Gain a card costing up to $5.


Contest
6
Event
Gain a card of your choice from the Contest pile.
-
Setup: Make a Contestdeck out of 10 different unused Kingdom cards costing $5.



Edicts
Edicts are straight-up rules changes. They can never be bought or added to anyone's deck, and are basically a broader variant of Landmarks.

Expansion
Edict
At the start of your turn, you may take your -$1 Token, to get +1 Action.


Appeasement
Edict
When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard an Estate from your hand, to be unaffected by it.


Diplomacy
Edict
At the start of your turn, you may discard 2 cards, for +1 Card.


Isolation
Edict
When you gain a card, you may exile it and gain a Copper.


Gigantism
Edict
Setup: Use 3 additional Kingdom card piles.


Trade Agreement
Edict
When you shuffle your deck during the game, you may gain a Silver and shuffle it in.


Imperialism
Edict
Setup: If it isn't already there, add the Platinum pile to the Supply.


Inflation
Edict
Cards can never cost less than $2.


Monarchy
Edict
Once per turn, when you play an Action card, you may set it aside here to play it again. Trash it at the start of your cleanup phase.


Reformation
Edict
Setup: Add a Province to the Supply per player.


Simplicity
Edict
Setup: Each player gets +5 Villagers


Tyranny
Edict
When you gain a Treasure card, take your -$1 Token.


Supervision
Edict
Setup: Before drawing starting cards, all players may look through their deck and put its cards in any order.


Banishment
Edict
When you buy a Victory card, trash a cheaper Victory card from the Supply.


Urbanisation
Edict
Setup: Each player replaces one of their starting Estates (or a Shelter of their choice) with a Copper.



Spellcasters & Spells
When a card with the Spellcaster type is in the supply, 3 Spells are chosen at random and put next to the Supply. Spells are effects similar to Events, which never go into your deck, but which you can buy in your buy phase. Each player gets 5 Spell Tokens in their color. When you buy a Spell, you put one of your tokens on the Spell you bought. That Spell is now "prepared". The only way to actually perform what a Spell does is when a Spellcaster card tells you to „cast a Spell“. By casting a Spell, you do what it says, then remove your token from the Spell. Naturally, you can have up to five Spells prepared.


Trickster
2
Action – Spellcaster
+2 Actions; You may cast a Spell.


Magician
3
Action – Spellcaster
+1 Buy; You may cast a Spell.
-
While this is in play, Spells cost $1 less, but not less than $0.


Shaman
3
Action – Spellcaster
+2 Cards; You may cast a Spell. If you do: +1 Card.


Stone Circle
3
Victory – Spellcaster
Worth 2 VP.
-
When you gain this, you may cast a Spell.


Shaman
3
Action – Spellcaster
+2 Cards; You may cast a Spell. If you do: +1 Card.


Ivory Tower
4
Action – Spellcaster
+1 Card, +1 Action; Discard up to 2 cards. Cast a Spell per card discarded.


Grimoire
4
Treasure – Spellcaster
+$1, +1 Buy; When you play this, you may cast a Spell. You may discard a card, for +$1.


Sorcerer
5
Action – Spellcaster
+3 Cards, +1 Buy; You may cast a Spell.


Warlock
5
Action – Spellcaster
+2 Cards, +1 Action, +1 Buy; You may cast a Spell.
-
When you gain this, gain a Curse.


Wizard
5
Action – Spellcaster
+1 Card, +1 Action, +$1; You may cast a Spell.


Esprit
1
Spell
+3 Buys


Purity
2
Spell
Trash any number of cards from your hand.


Wisdom
2
Spell
+2 Cards


Dexterity
4
Spell
Gain a card costing up to $5.


Harm
3
Spell
Gain a Silver. Each other player gains a Curse.


Wealth
4
Spell
+$3


Glory
7
Spell
Gain a Province.



Seasons
Season cards were created as a project together with the user C0okyL0rd. They change as the game progresses. When one or more Season cards are in the Supply, use the Season mat. The Season Mat has 20 spaces on it that go in a circle, and shows the 4 Seasons. A token is used to track the current time of year, starting the game on space 1, the first of Spring. After each full round (that is, after the last player in turn order took their turn) the token is moved forward one space. After each 5 turns a new Season begins. Summer starts with turn 6, Fall with turn 11, and Winter with 16. After turn 20 it is Spring again, and so on. Season cards check the current Season and do different things depending on it.






(should probably be renamed to Pupil now...)









« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 10:16:09 am by Asper »
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Archetype

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2013, 12:29:45 pm »
+8

First!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2013, 01:02:40 pm »
+2

Contraption: With the trash option, it may be a bit too strong. But the on-gain clause is unique and looks like it may help counter that. This one needs to be play tested to determine its strength.

Archive/Cryptograph: Interesting! I think the Crytograph should be 1$, 1 VP. I'd almost never let you keep it and Archive may be a bit too strong.

Hospital: Hm, I'm not sure I like this. Seems highly board dependent, which I don't really like. It may be too strong, but I personally would dislike playing with this if it were a printed card.

Parliament: This is so cool! I'd add another row: $5......play it once. Also, change the text to 'an Action card'. 'A card' is a bit too ambiguous.

Charter: This is pretty cool. Usually having the ruins go to players hand is useless, but it's a small nerf that may be needed. Nice one!

Clearance: I'm not exactly seeing the utility of this. I mean, it's good if you're falling behind someone who's rushing Provinces, but it really changes up the dynamic of the games it's in. But if you dont mind those kind of games, then I'd say use it. I can't think of any good replacements for the top, but the placeholder is good enough.

Swamp: So it's an alternate to Curses and Ruins, in a way.  Hm. I don't like that it has 3 sections, and I'm almost not sure you need that second part. And if not, then the third. I just think you need 2 different cards for each idea than trying to shove the two together. But if you don't mind the 3 spaces, then go for it!

Grand Vizier: Cool concept. I've never seen one like it before. 'Gain a Victory $6 or less' is a little clunky and I think you can get away with 'Gain a Duchy'. But you'd know better than me if you can. Really like the concept of having a small hand size, increasing it, but then discarding a card to fuel another one. The top part rocks so I think the only thing that can potentially be changed is the Victory part.

Hedge Maze: Name may need to be changed, but the idea is nice. To simplify it, I'd remove the "on top of your deck" clause.

Dragon: Nifty. Not sure what else to say.

Unicorn: Looks balanced. I'd remove the "Put your deck into your discard pile" and put in "+2 Buys"

Siren: Eh, it's a bit too similiar to Ghost Ship for me. But it's probably alright.

Chameleon: The Setup clause is interesting, but I think that a lot of people already play that way.

Overall, some cool cards here. My favorite has be Grand Vizior, but my least favorite is Hospital. Cool collection, thanks for posting!






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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2013, 01:47:13 pm »
0

Wow, thank you for your feedback. I'm glad you like most of them.

Contraption: Will do :)

Cryptograph: The choice is so cards like Thief and Pirate Ship can still trash it.

Hospital: I understand why you wouldn't like it printed - it takes pretty long to resolve it, especially when you have several cards to choose from. I'll playtest and reconsider it.

Parliament: Oops, is of course supposed to be "action card". I figured a 5$ card usually will be played directly, unless you go for Conspirators or handsize matters. I'm really glad you like it :)

Swamp: I put it together that way because both parts are pretty irrelevant on some boards. I'll playtest and rethink this, too. Maybe it's really better to split it for simplicity.

Grand Vizier: Thank you, though i stole the top part from Oasis... I'd really like to give a choice which victory card to gain, so that it interacts with Harem, Nobles and such... Hm...

Hedge Maze: There are not many situations where you'd want it on your deck (Outpost), so probably you're right and it's better without that part or even better directly putting the Curse in hand.

Unicorn: Hmm... Yeah, why not. Not a Trusty Steed bonus, but pretty nice. Thanks for the idea :)
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2013, 07:22:28 pm »
+1

For now I'll just comment on the ones that jump out at me:

Hospital - Cantrip victory token gainers don't really work in general; I'm sure you've heard of the problems with it before.  So you gave it a drawback.  I'm not sure that any sufficient drawback for the cantrip victory token card exists, but I'm pretty sure that your solution won't be enough to balance it.  I mean, maybe on many boards it will be, but there's always going to be a board where none of the (non-Hospital) cards costing $4 or less are appealing, and then Hospital just becomes a normal cantrip victory token gainer.

Charter - Non-terminal junking is crazy good.  Familiar limits itself by costing potion (meaning you usually only get one once per shuffle at maximum).  Cultist is at least kind of terminal in that it can only chain with itself, and it can also be drawn dead by other cards.  Charter is a treasure so you can't draw it dead, and there's no restrictions on how many times you can play it per turn.  Gaining to hand is a nice nerf though.  It's probably a power card but maybe not worse than Cultist.

Dragon - I am totally baffled by what you are trying to say in that comment.  If you get to choose whether they discard one card or their whole hand, doesn't that make it stronger than if there was no choice?

Siren - Terminal gold with a plus for $5 probably compares too favorably to Harvest.  Also, the wording is a little weird.  I would say "Each other player sets aside cards from his hand until he has 3 cards in his hand..."  I agree that it's a lot of text for a not-so-exciting effect.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2013, 08:29:35 pm »
0

Thank you for your feedback too, scotty :)

Hospital: Yeah, i'm not really happy with it right now, and that both of you share this view shows it needs work. I'll try to think of something else, but i still like the idea of a cantrip VP card.

Dragon: You don't get to choose the card he discards, just how many. So if a player has a good hand, he will have to discard it, but if he has been hit by several Dragons and now has a terrible hand, he may still discard his worst card and draw a new one (you won't let him discard all those terrible cards). I assume the wording had you think you could choose the card to discard, so i'll make it a bit clearer. (Actually i wasn't sure whether the wording was clear enough and it shows it was not).

Siren: Wording changed and Vanilla placeholder added instead of +3$. I don't know what i was thinking there.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 08:41:49 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2013, 08:45:57 pm »
0

So would Swamp look better this way, maybe?

Swamp
0$, Action
+2 Actions
Discard a card. If this is the first time you play a Swamp this turn: +2 Buys
----
In games using this, when you would gain a card and this is in the supply, you may gain this, instead
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AJD

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2013, 09:23:11 pm »
+1

So, I misread Hospital and thought it said you gain a card costing up to $4.

But I wonder how that would actually work out, on a cantrip VP-token earner? The problem with non-terminal token earners, right, is that you can just keep playing them and nothing else and never end the game. But having cantrip VP with mandatory gain solves both those problems: you can't just trash your deck down to those and nothing else, because they re-bloat your deck for you (though okay, if you're lucky you can get a bunch of Sages or Pearl Divers or something), and it definitely forces the game toward an end on piles.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2013, 09:34:12 pm »
+1

Dragon: You don't get to choose the card he discards, just how many. So if a player has a good hand, he will have to discard it, but if he has been hit by several Dragons and now has a terrible hand, he may still discard his worst card and draw a new one (you won't let him discard all those terrible cards). I assume the wording had you think you could choose the card to discard, so i'll make it a bit clearer. (Actually i wasn't sure whether the wording was clear enough and it shows it was not).
That is a good explanation of how the card plays out (I didn't quite think through it upon first reading), although I'm still a little confused by the comment.  I guess I don't know what the one card choice was added to (if I've seen the original card it's been a while), so maybe that is the source of the confusion?

I was just thinking that the original must have read "+3 cards; Each other player discards his hand. He then draws the same number of cards he discarded." in which case the new version is strictly better.  But maybe that's not what the original card said.

Anyway, I think the wording was clear as it was.  It's a very interesting card, though it may be too weak for $5.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2013, 11:40:32 pm »
0

Dragon: You don't get to choose the card he discards, just how many. So if a player has a good hand, he will have to discard it, but if he has been hit by several Dragons and now has a terrible hand, he may still discard his worst card and draw a new one (you won't let him discard all those terrible cards). I assume the wording had you think you could choose the card to discard, so i'll make it a bit clearer. (Actually i wasn't sure whether the wording was clear enough and it shows it was not).
That is a good explanation of how the card plays out (I didn't quite think through it upon first reading), although I'm still a little confused by the comment.  I guess I don't know what the one card choice was added to (if I've seen the original card it's been a while), so maybe that is the source of the confusion?

I was just thinking that the original must have read "+3 cards; Each other player discards his hand. He then draws the same number of cards he discarded." in which case the new version is strictly better.  But maybe that's not what the original card said.

Anyway, I think the wording was clear as it was.  It's a very interesting card, though it may be too weak for $5.

Well, the former version was this:
+3 Cards
Each other player reveals his hand. You decide whether he has to discard it and draw 5 new cards.

The problem here was that you could keep playing Dragons until everybody had a terrible hand. The decision between two alternatives was a nerf. I'll add it to the comment for others. And yeah, it might be a bit weak because of it.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2013, 11:44:07 pm »
0

So, I misread Hospital and thought it said you gain a card costing up to $4.

But I wonder how that would actually work out, on a cantrip VP-token earner? The problem with non-terminal token earners, right, is that you can just keep playing them and nothing else and never end the game. But having cantrip VP with mandatory gain solves both those problems: you can't just trash your deck down to those and nothing else, because they re-bloat your deck for you (though okay, if you're lucky you can get a bunch of Sages or Pearl Divers or something), and it definitely forces the game toward an end on piles.

The idea was to give others the choice of bringing the game closer to it's end. Obviously doesn't work out the way i wanted to.
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AJD

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2013, 12:39:19 am »
+1

So, I misread Hospital and thought it said you gain a card costing up to $4.

But I wonder how that would actually work out, on a cantrip VP-token earner? The problem with non-terminal token earners, right, is that you can just keep playing them and nothing else and never end the game. But having cantrip VP with mandatory gain solves both those problems: you can't just trash your deck down to those and nothing else, because they re-bloat your deck for you (though okay, if you're lucky you can get a bunch of Sages or Pearl Divers or something), and it definitely forces the game toward an end on piles.

The idea was to give others the choice of bringing the game closer to it's end. Obviously doesn't work out the way i wanted to.

Maybe not. But I wonder what a cantrip VP token card where you gain a card when you play it would be like? Say, "gain a card costing less than this"—so you must either block the cantrip chain or run piles out or both in order to use it. Not sure if it's a $4 or a $5 or what, though.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2013, 12:53:38 am »
0

Oh yeah, sorry, i got what you wanted but my answer didn't have anything to do with it...  :-[
I'll consider that approach for another version :)
Sorry, i'm very tired...
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2013, 12:10:07 pm »
0

So, I misread Hospital and thought it said you gain a card costing up to $4.

But I wonder how that would actually work out, on a cantrip VP-token earner? The problem with non-terminal token earners, right, is that you can just keep playing them and nothing else and never end the game. But having cantrip VP with mandatory gain solves both those problems: you can't just trash your deck down to those and nothing else, because they re-bloat your deck for you (though okay, if you're lucky you can get a bunch of Sages or Pearl Divers or something), and it definitely forces the game toward an end on piles.

The idea was to give others the choice of bringing the game closer to it's end. Obviously doesn't work out the way i wanted to.

Maybe not. But I wonder what a cantrip VP token card where you gain a card when you play it would be like? Say, "gain a card costing less than this"—so you must either block the cantrip chain or run piles out or both in order to use it. Not sure if it's a $4 or a $5 or what, though.

Hmm... 4$ or 5$, that's tough. I'll playtest it at 5$, it seems still too good at 4$.

Hospital
5$, Action
+1 Card
+1 action
+1 VP
Gain a card costing less than this.

Will also redo the upper half of Swamp, probably. Still have to think about how to push Dragon a bit, +1 Buy seems good, but is too similar to Margrave. And removed Siren for now.
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AJD

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2013, 12:17:50 pm »
+1

Hmm... 4$ or 5$, that's tough. I'll playtest it at 5$, it seems still too good at 4$.

Maybe, but note you might rather gain a lot of $4 cards than $3 card. But I suppose it... (wait for it...) depends on the board.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2013, 02:15:49 pm »
0

Hmm... 4$ or 5$, that's tough. I'll playtest it at 5$, it seems still too good at 4$.

Maybe, but note you might rather gain a lot of $4 cards than $3 card. But I suppose it... (wait for it...) depends on the board.

True, true. But at 4$ it's still a nonterminal cantrip Silver gainer with VP, at the least. The more i think about it, the more i feel it's even stronger than my original version... I'll playtest it at 5$ and, depending on the result, maybe at 4$ and/or 6$.

Edit: Ugh, just playtested it on a random kingdom... And that Kingdom mas Duchess, Develop, Shanty Town, Masquerade, Bishop, Monument, Mining Village, Hospital, Mountebank and Border Village, with Colony. That was soooooooo helpful in estimating the power level of 5$-Hospital...  :-\
(Hospital/Bishop lost to Border Village/Mountebank, but not by much... Probably also didn't help i played terribly. I guess it's too strong, too.)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 03:44:57 pm by Asper »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2013, 03:35:27 pm »
+1

Dragon: You don't get to choose the card he discards, just how many. So if a player has a good hand, he will have to discard it, but if he has been hit by several Dragons and now has a terrible hand, he may still discard his worst card and draw a new one (you won't let him discard all those terrible cards). I assume the wording had you think you could choose the card to discard, so i'll make it a bit clearer. (Actually i wasn't sure whether the wording was clear enough and it shows it was not).
That is a good explanation of how the card plays out (I didn't quite think through it upon first reading), although I'm still a little confused by the comment.  I guess I don't know what the one card choice was added to (if I've seen the original card it's been a while), so maybe that is the source of the confusion?

I was just thinking that the original must have read "+3 cards; Each other player discards his hand. He then draws the same number of cards he discarded." in which case the new version is strictly better.  But maybe that's not what the original card said.

Anyway, I think the wording was clear as it was.  It's a very interesting card, though it may be too weak for $5.

Well, the former version was this:
+3 Cards
Each other player reveals his hand. You decide whether he has to discard it and draw 5 new cards.

The problem here was that you could keep playing Dragons until everybody had a terrible hand. The decision between two alternatives was a nerf. I'll add it to the comment for others. And yeah, it might be a bit weak because of it.
Okay, that actually makes a lot of sense now.  Thanks for clearing that up.

With the new Hospital gaining for yourself I would think it's way too strong, even at $5.  I don't think we've had a cantrip gainer before (except Upgrade, but that's dependent on trashing).  It does balance for the fact that it's a cantrip victory token gainer, but the benefit of gaining is probably greater than the amount of nerf it gives to the rest of the card (if that makes sense).  Actually, if there are any cantrips costing $4 or less, you can just spam them (presumably they slightly improve your deck, even if they are something like Spy or Pearl Diver), and that won't slow down your victory tokening at all.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2013, 09:29:47 pm »
+1

Dragon: You don't get to choose the card he discards, just how many. So if a player has a good hand, he will have to discard it, but if he has been hit by several Dragons and now has a terrible hand, he may still discard his worst card and draw a new one (you won't let him discard all those terrible cards). I assume the wording had you think you could choose the card to discard, so i'll make it a bit clearer. (Actually i wasn't sure whether the wording was clear enough and it shows it was not).
That is a good explanation of how the card plays out (I didn't quite think through it upon first reading), although I'm still a little confused by the comment.  I guess I don't know what the one card choice was added to (if I've seen the original card it's been a while), so maybe that is the source of the confusion?

I was just thinking that the original must have read "+3 cards; Each other player discards his hand. He then draws the same number of cards he discarded." in which case the new version is strictly better.  But maybe that's not what the original card said.

Anyway, I think the wording was clear as it was.  It's a very interesting card, though it may be too weak for $5.

Well, the former version was this:
+3 Cards
Each other player reveals his hand. You decide whether he has to discard it and draw 5 new cards.

The problem here was that you could keep playing Dragons until everybody had a terrible hand. The decision between two alternatives was a nerf. I'll add it to the comment for others. And yeah, it might be a bit weak because of it.
Okay, that actually makes a lot of sense now.  Thanks for clearing that up.

With the new Hospital gaining for yourself I would think it's way too strong, even at $5.  I don't think we've had a cantrip gainer before (except Upgrade, but that's dependent on trashing).  It does balance for the fact that it's a cantrip victory token gainer, but the benefit of gaining is probably greater than the amount of nerf it gives to the rest of the card (if that makes sense).  Actually, if there are any cantrips costing $4 or less, you can just spam them (presumably they slightly improve your deck, even if they are something like Spy or Pearl Diver), and that won't slow down your victory tokening at all.
OIr you make it cost $3 so you have to take an Estate or Copper or something (Or a $2 action)
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2013, 09:24:27 pm »
+1

*sets up five-card hand of Highway-Highway-Parliament-Parliament-some draw card*

EDIT: Ah, that doesn't work: it works on the printed cost, not the modified cost. Neat wording.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 09:27:25 pm by Jack Rudd »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2014, 05:11:40 am »
0

Figured i should actually use this thread for my card ideas.

I tried two other takes on my old idea, Hedge Maze. Do you think one of them is balanced? If yes, which is better?

Hedge Maze, Action - Attack - Victory, 5$ (1)
Each other player gains a Curse.
-----
Worth one VP per empty supply pile.


Hedge Maze, Action - Attack - Victory, 4$ (2)
Each other player gains a Curse in hand.
-----
Worth one VP per empty supply pile that is not Province's.


Also a second card: First i wanted to post this in the "Very bad card ideas" thread, but maybe it's not that terrible - might be overpowered when compared to Junk Dealer or Market, though:

Pony, Action, 5$
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1$
Gain a Silver



What do you think?
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silverspawn

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2014, 06:39:17 am »
+1

Figured i should actually use this thread for my card ideas.

I tried two other takes on my old idea, Hedge Maze. Do you think one of them is balanced? If yes, which is better?

Hedge Maze, Action - Attack - Victory, 5$ (1)
Each other player gains a Curse.
-----
Worth one VP per empty supply pile.
Let's see, so it's usually either worth 2VP (curse and Province) or 3VP (3 piles). You'll want to buy it really early, like most junkers. You probably won't get more than 2 of them. So, compared to Witch, you'll lack the +2 card beneift early, but have 4/6 VP's more endgame. That seems weak to me, but I'm not sure. It's defintiely worse than Mountebank, but what card isn't, so that's not an issue.



Hedge Maze, Action - Attack - Victory, 4$ (2)
Each other player gains a Curse in hand.
-----
Worth one VP per empty supply pile that is not Province's.

I don't like this version. Firstly because, following the same logic, it's usually either worth 1VP or 3VP, very swingy. Second, I don't think we need another curser for $4. In games without trashing, it'll be must-buy, a duchy which deals out curses. In games with good trashing, it's an Estate with a slight attack, you'll often get rid of the curse right away. I don't see that being fun. Try the 5$ version.

Also a second card: First i wanted to post this in the "Very bad card ideas" thread, but maybe it's not that terrible - might be overpowered when compared to Junk Dealer or Market, though:

Pony, Action, 5$
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1$
Gain a Silver



What do you think?

I like the name. Aside from that, I think the card is fine. If it were in the game, it would probably be one of the most frequently missused cards, because it kills your engines. It's a BM card, you're flooding yourself with silver, not a card for engines. Because of this, comparing it to market or Junk Dealer doesn't make all that much sense. I think the closest comparison is Jack of all Trades. Both give you a silver, both have you back at 5 cards when playing them. JOAD also trashes your estates and curses and defends against discard attacks, this card simply provides +1$, and it isn't terminal. I could see them working fairly well together, not to the point where you ever buy it over gold, but you might buy it rather than another silver.

Despite what I said, it might be a good addition to some engines, but only after they're set up, to increase their buying power. In that way it'd work similiar to Explorer: if you draw the silver in the turn you get it, it's +3$ for your current turn, +2$ for every following turn, +1 card for your deck. Explorer is +3$ for your current turn, +3$ for every following turn, +1 card for your deck; but it's terminal and you need to already have a province. Explorer also doesn't draw, but it doesn't make you have to draw the gold either, so it's like +1 card in that way.

Might also be good for some other stuff. Anyway, I like it. Needs testing though.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 09:05:59 am by silverspawn »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2014, 05:18:49 pm »
0

Thanks for your feedback. The name of Pony comes from the fact that it gives each of Trusty Steed's bonuses, but in a weaker form. I can see why you like it, though ;)

I myself had the feeling that the 5$ version of Hedge Maze was more dull than the other one, so that's why i wanted to have the 4$. I can definitely see you concern about it, though.

I'd still like to have an Attack-Victory, but maybe i can come up with something more clever. Using Ruins seems an obvious choice, but probably that's not good, either.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 08:30:36 am by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2014, 08:24:28 am »
0

Junk me, baby!

I noticed two ideas for alt victory cards i had some time ago went in very similar directions. So i combined them:

Demolition, 6$, Victory
Worth 2VP if you still own your Demolition token.
---
Setup: Each player takes a Demolition token. He removes it when he trashes one of his Victory cards.
---
When you gain this, gain a Duchy and an Estate and trash a Province from the supply.


Things worth noting:
This is a Province for 6$ that junks your deck and demands that you don't trash junk.
The Province trashed from the supply is none of your cards and doesn't remove the token or trigger Market Square.
The card is a Victory card that works horribly with Rebuild, maybe against it.
If it seems too weak, i could change Estate and Duchy for "two differently named VP cards costing less than this".

About the 2nd line i don't really know what to do. I feel the idea itself is sufficiently simple, but obviously 2 lines is a no go. If somebody has an idea how i could reach a similar goal with just one, i'd greatly appreciate it. Or do you think the rules allow me to put the first two together? Like: "Setup: Each player takes a Demolition token. He removes that token when he trashes one of his VP cards. This card is worth 2VP for players that still have their token."

I'm really uncertain of what to do with this, so please help me out a bit here :-\
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 08:25:37 am by Asper »
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clloxin

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2014, 12:45:26 pm »
+1

 
Junk me, baby!

I noticed two ideas for alt victory cards i had some time ago went in very similar directions. So i combined them:

Demolition, 6$, Victory
Worth 2VP if you still own your Demolition token.
---
Setup: Each player takes a Demolition token. He removes it when he trashes one of his Victory cards.
---
When you gain this, gain a Duchy and an Estate and trash a Province from the supply.


Things worth noting:
This is a Province for 6$ that junks your deck and demands that you don't trash junk.
The Province trashed from the supply is none of your cards and doesn't remove the token or trigger Market Square.
The card is a Victory card that works horribly with Rebuild, maybe against it.
If it seems too weak, i could change Estate and Duchy for "two differently named VP cards costing less than this".

About the 2nd line i don't really know what to do. I feel the idea itself is sufficiently simple, but obviously 2 lines is a no go. If somebody has an idea how i could reach a similar goal with just one, i'd greatly appreciate it. Or do you think the rules allow me to put the first two together? Like: "Setup: Each player takes a Demolition token. He removes that token when he trashes one of his VP cards. This card is worth 2VP for players that still have their token."

I'm really uncertain of what to do with this, so please help me out a bit here :-\
I'm not an expert, but it seems that it wouldn't be worth it to not trash when you have the option.
In games without trashing, it is a cheap province which junks your deck, but its a unanimous buy late game.
I might be wrong, but I don't think this card would fit it's purpose, and be just cheap victory points for $6, either a province or a duchy and an estate for $6.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2014, 01:50:28 pm »
+1

@silerspawn -- Hedge Maze is not worth either 1VP or 3VP.  It's worth 1-4 VP usually, with a chance of being worth MORE than 4VP.  If the game ends in a 3 pile, Hedge Maze is worth a net 4VP because of the Curse.  It can be worth an intermediate value because games that end on Provinces often ALSO have another empty pile or two.  It can be worth more because there are sometimes games where more than 3 piles are emptied on the last turn.  For the version that counts the Province pile as well, it's worh a net 2-4VP (because there is a guaranteed empty pile at the end).

Also note that this is a curser itself.  That almost guarantees that the curse pile will empty, further lowering the variance.

Despite the variable VP, I don't think it is that swingy.  Before you buy it, you can reasonably predict how many empty piles there will be.  If it's a powerful engine board with Hamlet or Fishing Village as the only +actions, then you can be pretty sure that that pile will drain quickly.  If it's a dull BM board with no +actions or +buy or gainers, probably no pile will empty.



Despite defending the card on those fronts, I think a bigger problem is that it just wouldn't be that interesting or fun.  Players tend not to like attack cards that give no benefit (e.g. Saboteur, Sea Hag) on play.  I like the VP portion (there's a similar one in one of the mini-set design contests, I think?) but the cursing just isn't exciting at all.








On Demolition -- the double line is off-putting.  I like the general idea (cheap province that junks you a lot more) but I'm not sure about the implementation.  It makes trashing attacks even swingier than they normally are.  Swindler hits your Estate... now your Demolitions are all worthless.  I'm also not sure if it would be fun to feel constricted against trashing.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2014, 03:31:50 pm »
0

Despite defending the card on those fronts, I think a bigger problem is that it just wouldn't be that interesting or fun.  Players tend not to like attack cards that give no benefit (e.g. Saboteur, Sea Hag) on play.  I like the VP portion (there's a similar one in one of the mini-set design contests, I think?) but the cursing just isn't exciting at all.

I think there is one. Originally Hedge Maze was only counting the piles of cards costing 0$, but i felt that was awkward.
I can see why you think it's boring...  :-\


On Demolition -- the double line is off-putting.  I like the general idea (cheap province that junks you a lot more) but I'm not sure about the implementation.  It makes trashing attacks even swingier than they normally are.  Swindler hits your Estate... now your Demolitions are all worthless.  I'm also not sure if it would be fun to feel constricted against trashing.

Yeah, originally it was about trashing cards during your turn, but that was too complex. I guess you just shouldn't buy Demolition on a board with trashing attacks...


As i mentioned it were two cards originally. Maybe i should post them, too:

Rental, 6$, Victory
Setup: Each player puts 6 VP tokens on his rental mat. Whenever he trashes a VP card during his turn, he removes one VP token from the mat.
---
This is worth 1 VP per VP token on your Rental mat.


Headquarters, 6$, Action
+2 Actions
Discard any number of cards. +1$ per card discarded.
----
When you gain this, gain two differently named Victory cards costing less than this and trash a Province from the supply.


Any thoughts? I don't want to have two cards that have so similar goals (though not same), so if i can't combine them i will dismiss one. Which one should i get rid of?
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clloxin

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2014, 04:07:20 pm »
+1

Despite defending the card on those fronts, I think a bigger problem is that it just wouldn't be that interesting or fun.  Players tend not to like attack cards that give no benefit (e.g. Saboteur, Sea Hag) on play.  I like the VP portion (there's a similar one in one of the mini-set design contests, I think?) but the cursing just isn't exciting at all.

I think there is one. Originally Hedge Maze was only counting the piles of cards costing 0$, but i felt that was awkward.
I can see why you think it's boring...  :-\




On Demolition -- the double line is off-putting.  I like the general idea (cheap province that junks you a lot more) but I'm not sure about the implementation.  It makes trashing attacks even swingier than they normally are.  Swindler hits your Estate... now your Demolitions are all worthless.  I'm also not sure if it would be fun to feel constricted against trashing.

Yeah, originally it was about trashing cards during your turn, but that was too complex. I guess you just shouldn't buy Demolition on a board with trashing attacks...


As i mentioned it were two cards originally. Maybe i should post them, too:

Rental, 6$, Victory
Setup: Each player puts 6 VP tokens on his rental mat. Whenever he trashes a VP card during his turn, he removes one VP token from the mat.
---
This is worth 1 VP per VP token on your Rental mat.


Headquarters, 6$, Action
+2 Actions
Discard any number of cards. +1$ per card discarded.
----
When you gain this, gain two differently named Victory cards costing less than this and trash a Province from the supply.


Any thoughts? I don't want to have two cards that have so similar goals (though not same), so if i can't combine them i will dismiss one. Which one should i get rid of?


I don't think the idea of rental is that good. Punishing you for not trashing is bad. and when there is no trashing it's a cheap province. Still, you could try testing it if you really like the idea.
I think the idea for headquarters is better. Except It gives alot of victory points for $6 late game, especially when there is alt. victory cards. If you re-did the card, keeping the main idea though, it probably would be okay, Gimmicky, but still okay.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2014, 10:48:04 am »
0

Another take at a card that was intended to be a mix of Pearl Diver and Native Village:

Dwarf, Action - Duration, 2$
+1 Action
Choose one:
Put a card from your hand at the bottom of your deck. At the start of your next turn, play this again; Or: Put the bottom card of your deck in your hand.

Edit: This card is basically either a cantrip that draws from the deck's bottom, or, more interestingly, a way to prepare combos by storing cards and then Villaging them.
Thinking about it, the card's a bit too complex, isn't it?



Edit II, cleaner version:

Dwarf, Action - Duration, 2$
+1 Card
+1 Action
Chose one:
Put the bottom card of your deck in your hand;
Or: Put a card from your hand at the bottom of your deck. At the start of your next turn, chose one again;
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 11:04:27 am by Asper »
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silverspawn

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2014, 12:36:01 pm »
+2

Another take at a card that was intended to be a mix of Pearl Diver and Native Village:

Dwarf, Action - Duration, 2$
+1 Action
Choose one:
Put a card from your hand at the bottom of your deck. At the start of your next turn, play this again; Or: Put the bottom card of your deck in your hand.

Edit: This card is basically either a cantrip that draws from the deck's bottom, or, more interestingly, a way to prepare combos by storing cards and then Villaging them.
Thinking about it, the card's a bit too complex, isn't it?




Edit II, cleaner version:

Dwarf, Action - Duration, 2$
+1 Card
+1 Action
Chose one:
Put the bottom card of your deck in your hand;
Or: Put a card from your hand at the bottom of your deck. At the start of your next turn, chose one again;


a lab+ for 2$? sounds legit ???

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2014, 05:26:01 pm »
0

Another take at a card that was intended to be a mix of Pearl Diver and Native Village:

Dwarf, Action - Duration, 2$
+1 Action
Choose one:
Put a card from your hand at the bottom of your deck. At the start of your next turn, play this again; Or: Put the bottom card of your deck in your hand.

Edit: This card is basically either a cantrip that draws from the deck's bottom, or, more interestingly, a way to prepare combos by storing cards and then Villaging them.
Thinking about it, the card's a bit too complex, isn't it?




Edit II, cleaner version:

Dwarf, Action - Duration, 2$
+1 Card
+1 Action
Chose one:
Put the bottom card of your deck in your hand;
Or: Put a card from your hand at the bottom of your deck. At the start of your next turn, chose one again;


a lab+ for 2$? sounds legit ???

Ah crap, i forgot to remove the +1 card when redoing the wording.

Of course that's how it's supposed to be:

Dwarf, Action - Duration, 2$
+1 Action
Chose one:
Put the bottom card of your deck in your hand;
Or: Put a card from your hand at the bottom of your deck. At the start of your next turn, chose one again;
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silverspawn

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2014, 06:47:06 pm »
+1

well, it's very similar and a lot worse than haven

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2014, 07:20:24 pm »
+1

well, it's very similar and a lot worse than haven

I'm not sure on the worse, but it probably really is too similar. :(
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silverspawn

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2014, 07:26:18 am »
+1

well, it's very similar and a lot worse than haven

I'm not sure on the worse, but it probably really is too similar. :(

it's worse, with haven you always draw, and if you don't want to set aside a card, you can usually just choose a dead card

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2014, 07:57:05 am »
0

well, it's very similar and a lot worse than haven

I'm not sure on the worse, but it probably really is too similar. :(

it's worse, with haven you always draw, and if you don't want to set aside a card, you can usually just choose a dead card

Probably you're right. Was a bad idea...
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2015, 11:36:46 am »
0

Updated the OP list of cards after some time of being rather unproductive as a fan card designer. As always, i'm grateful for opinions. :)

Edit: If you have no opinions, i take credit cards, too.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 12:08:36 pm by Asper »
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Halvard

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2015, 09:26:45 am »
+1


Quote
Politician Action, $3
+$3
For each other player, choose one of the following he may do (choices must be different):
Draw a card; Trash a card from his hand; Gain a Silver; Put his deck in his discard; Gain +1VP

Comment one:
When you say "choose one" I would think that "choices must be different" is unnecessary?

Comment two:
The choices you have for what your opponents can do will sometimes be awful for him (and I assume that you want them to be good for him).  Let us say he has built up a strong deck with the use of Chapel or another trashing mechanism, you risk that he has only strong cards in his deck.  And is putting his deck in his discard always a good thing?  I think I would choose "Put his deck in his discard" most of the time.

Comment three:
I really liked the idea of this card.  What if your opponents could choose themselves?  I think that could be cool.  It might set the cost down to $2?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2015, 11:17:55 am »
0


Quote
Politician Action, $3
+$3
For each other player, choose one of the following he may do (choices must be different):
Draw a card; Trash a card from his hand; Gain a Silver; Put his deck in his discard; Gain +1VP

Comment one:
When you say "choose one" I would think that "choices must be different" is unnecessary?

Comment two:
The choices you have for what your opponents can do will sometimes be awful for him (and I assume that you want them to be good for him).  Let us say he has built up a strong deck with the use of Chapel or another trashing mechanism, you risk that he has only strong cards in his deck.  And is putting his deck in his discard always a good thing?  I think I would choose "Put his deck in his discard" most of the time.

Comment three:
I really liked the idea of this card.  What if your opponents could choose themselves?  I think that could be cool.  It might set the cost down to $2?

Thank you for the input.

Comment one: The "choose one" is to make clear that i can't have player one do all five things so player two can't do anything. "choices must be different" makes clear i can't let player one and two do the same thing. But you are right and it can probably be shortened. "For each other player, choose another one of the following he may do".

Comment two: Yes, most of the choices are not exactly great under certain situations. That's on purpose - you can for each opponent pick whatever choice you think helps him the least (well, unless another opponent allready got that benefit). Trashing is awful if all your opponent has is good stuff. Silvers can harm a trimmed engine. Drawing can trigger reshuffles (but is still pretty good). The +1VP is never a drawback, but it's also the only one that can never benefit your economy. The Chancellor effect doesn't stack. That aside, i think people generally underestimate how good it is at speeding you up. Nonetheless you are most certainly right, you don't always want it. That's why players only may do the bonus and are not forced to.

Comment three:
Well, the point of the card is to make it deliberately political, which means that you have to be the one who chooses who gets what. There are quite some "friendly interaction" cards allready, and most of the effects on this card have been on those allready. The fact that you choose is what makes it special.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2015, 01:58:14 pm »
+3

Images!!


Figured i could just as well follow my own advice and add images to some of my cards. Naturally, positive feedback should now ensue.

Assassin & Sultan are two new cards. Sultan is vaguely as good as Oasis (i think), being less useful when paired with Estates, Curses, Ruins and dead Actions, but better if you can meet it up with Duchies, Provinces or alt-VP, or if you have no junk in hand at all. As a gainer, it plays actually very differently.
Assassin is a super-powered Militia/Ghost Ship attack. +2$ seemed a logical bonus, but i didn't want it to become a card that just goes "play one of these every turn". If you have no other actions, the bonus is useless, and if you play several, the attack doesn't stack.

Tribunal is the renamed Dragon. A lot of cards don't have (good) art yet, either, so i left those out. They are in the first post, though.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 11:10:50 am by Asper »
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werothegreat

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2015, 02:43:22 pm »
+1

I like River.  But you have to strike a balance as to how many you get - too many, and you have a bunch of Rivers in hand that you don't need.  Too few, and you'll only see it once a shuffle, though the turn you get it will be awesome.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 02:44:31 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2015, 03:05:00 pm »
0

I like River.  But you have to strike a balance as to how many you get - too many, and you have a bunch of Rivers in hand that you don't need.  Too few, and you'll only see it once a shuffle, though the turn you get it will be awesome.

When i suggested it in the "-1 action" thread, there actually was some discussion as to how strong it was. Like you, i believe that balancing how many you want is tricky (considering you may be unlucky and draw it without Villages), which is why i priced at easily available $3. I don't have people who would playtest cards with me, though, and i find solo playtests terribly unsatisfactory. So maybe i'm totally wrong here.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2015, 03:33:14 pm »
+1

That is a lot of +Actions.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2015, 08:43:01 pm »
+1

That is a lot of +Actions.

Interesting point... I guess Assassin doesn't really need to be one of those. There were some more cards that didn't have +actions, but i had no images.

After some search here's part two. Should reduce the +action percentage ;) Also has a few $4 cards.



Assemble is a new card. It's more like "dissemble", actually, but good luck finding images for that :P
Edit: Forgot vampire.
Edited Edit: On second third thought, the picture for that one isn't good enough, though :P
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 11:14:27 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2015, 09:13:48 pm »
+1

I like Assemble, but it's gonna need some clarification. Do you choose both cards before you gain either of them?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2015, 09:41:29 pm »
0

I like Assemble, but it's gonna need some clarification. Do you choose both cards before you gain either of them?

Good point. I imagined that you would first gain one card costing up to $3 more and after that gain another one costing up to whatever is left, but couldn't find a nice wording for that - i guess i forgot to make it clear in either way  :-[ Anyhow, i think it should only matter if Curses and Coppers both are out, but of course that can happen. Either option works for me, it's all about which wording is better.

I have this: "Trash a card from your hand. Choose two card in the supply that together cost up to $3 more than the trashed card. Gain them"
A bit lengthy, though.

Edit: Changed wording :) It now makes clear you choose both cards, then gain them.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 10:02:33 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2015, 10:58:00 pm »
+1

I believe with the new wording of Assemble, you cannot gain two copies of the same card, as only the top card in each pile is "in the Supply" for this kind of purpose. Same way you can't use Band of Misfits as Sir Martin if he's buried in the Knights pile.

I think with the old wording, you gained a card costing up to $3 more than the card you trashed, then gain another card costing up to the remainder. If there is no such card, you'd gain nothing, but there almost always will be either a Copper or Curse to gain.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2015, 11:21:35 pm »
+3

Politician seems very... political.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2015, 07:22:47 am »
0

I believe with the new wording of Assemble, you cannot gain two copies of the same card, as only the top card in each pile is "in the Supply" for this kind of purpose. Same way you can't use Band of Misfits as Sir Martin if he's buried in the Knights pile.

I think with the old wording, you gained a card costing up to $3 more than the card you trashed, then gain another card costing up to the remainder. If there is no such card, you'd gain nothing, but there almost always will be either a Copper or Curse to gain.

Would you recommend going back to the old wording? I'd like to give the option of gaining duplicates and wasn't aware the wording wouldn't allow it. Maybe it would be sufficient to go back and only clarify the actual order in a faq - given it will matter very rarely.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2015, 07:29:21 am »
0

Politician seems very... political.

I don't see where you draw that connection. :P

On a side note, i would be glad to find a better option than the +1VP one, just so the card doesn't ask for material that's otherwise not needed. There's trashing, gaining, drawing, accelerating and i wanted one that gave no economy boost at all. I pondered a few alternatives, including "set aside a Victory card in his hand during the end of the game", "gain a Copper in hand", "discard his hand and draw 5 new cards", but they were too redundant to the existing options.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2015, 10:00:22 am »
+2

Assemble is a new card. It's more like "dissemble", actually, but good luck finding images for that :P
Actually, it's more like "disassemble". "Dissemble" is something completely different.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2015, 10:42:37 am »
+1

I believe with the new wording of Assemble, you cannot gain two copies of the same card, as only the top card in each pile is "in the Supply" for this kind of purpose. Same way you can't use Band of Misfits as Sir Martin if he's buried in the Knights pile.

I think with the old wording, you gained a card costing up to $3 more than the card you trashed, then gain another card costing up to the remainder. If there is no such card, you'd gain nothing, but there almost always will be either a Copper or Curse to gain.

Would you recommend going back to the old wording? I'd like to give the option of gaining duplicates and wasn't aware the wording wouldn't allow it. Maybe it would be sufficient to go back and only clarify the actual order in a faq - given it will matter very rarely.

I would use the old wording, yes.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2015, 11:21:32 am »
0

Assemble is a new card. It's more like "dissemble", actually, but good luck finding images for that :P
Actually, it's more like "disassemble". "Dissemble" is something completely different.

Ah, i didn't know that. Thanks.

I would use the old wording, yes.

Changed it back, thank you.



Also, here's Vampire:


Certainly not the best card here, but it's my take on the Self-Curse concept and an older version was pretty popular in my gaming group. Figured i could just as well pick some art and post it here.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2015, 10:17:42 am »
0

I have changed the wording of Parliament to avoid the somewhat clumsy "printed" clause. It now doesn't distinguish between $2 and $3 cards anymore, but i actually feel that's better balanced. Now it's just a King's Court for weaker and a Throne Room for better cards. Like, Fishing Village and Scout, for example...



The order of the conditions is to avoid cases where a hypothetical cheap cost reducer might be played 5 times with Parliament (play Bridge, play Minibridge three times, Parliament and Minibridge now both cost $0, play it twice). It could still do weird stuff with Actions that only reduce/increase the costs of certain cards, but i'm not going to do one of those and i hope Donald won't, either. Also you can use it as a TR for $5 cards after some cost reduction, but it doesn't go crazy at all.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2015, 10:43:29 am »
+3

I honestly do not understand why you're bending over backwards so that Parliament doesn't combo with cost-reducers. It's a combo, man. Combos are fun! You don't see Prince with wording that prevents you from prince-ing expensive cards after playing Highway. Border Village has the wording so that you can't take the whole stack after one Highway and Band of Misfits has it so that it can't copy itself. Parliament has no such issue with loops.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2015, 11:07:04 am »
+1

I honestly do not understand why you're bending over backwards so that Parliament doesn't combo with cost-reducers. It's a combo, man. Combos are fun! You don't see Prince with wording that prevents you from prince-ing expensive cards after playing Highway. Border Village has the wording so that you can't take the whole stack after one Highway and Band of Misfits has it so that it can't copy itself. Parliament has no such issue with loops.

Well, it started out as a card where the times you played scaled with how cheap it was, which would have meant that a card could be played up to 5 times. In the process of fixing this (terribly overpowered) effect, i changed it so it wouldn't scale. Thinking about it, now that the maximum effect is King's Court, i could actually revert it to $4 and less than $4. "Combos are fun" is a valid concern, after all. Thank you :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2015, 11:22:39 am »
0

So, here's Parliament with room for cost reduction combos. the wording is a bit less pretty than the one before, sadly. The "3 or less" is mostly to avoid two coins saying "$4", which looks silly. +1 to whoever guesses why i didn't use: "If it costs $4/If it costs ($3 or) less"

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2015, 11:23:51 am »
+1

+1 to whoever guesses why i didn't use: "If it costs $4/If it costs ($3 or) less"

Is it so you don't play Bridge 5 times?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2015, 11:25:31 am »
0

+1 to whoever guesses why i didn't use: "If it costs $4/If it costs ($3 or) less"

Is it so you don't play Bridge 5 times?

+1 respect was received ;)

Edit: I assume you could actually call that a combo, too... I just felt that it would look really unintended. Like putting revealed and bought Black Market cards back on top of the stack with Trader or stealing an Outpost turn with Possession. It technically works, but it's clearly a rule gap that causes the interaction.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 11:31:12 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2015, 01:31:51 pm »
+1

Edit: I assume you could actually call that a combo, too... I just felt that it would look really unintended. Like putting revealed and bought Black Market cards back on top of the stack with Trader or stealing an Outpost turn with Possession. It technically works, but it's clearly a rule gap that causes the interaction.

Putting the cheaper one first is best. Playing Bridge 5 times is a little too nuts, I think.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2015, 02:16:54 pm »
+1

You could have an "otherwise" in there if you wanted to put the more expensive one first. Not worth it, though, unless you're going to come up with a fan card that increases costs because then you need it there anyway.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2015, 02:30:39 pm »
0

You could have an "otherwise" in there if you wanted to put the more expensive one first. Not worth it, though, unless you're going to come up with a fan card that increases costs because then you need it there anyway.

Yeah, i had it as "If it costs $4/Otherwise, if it costs less" shortly, but that looked plain stupid. I don't think i'll ever make a cost increaser - there's Cutpurse and Embargo, so it's not really novel, and then there are rules issues with Highway etc.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2015, 06:30:52 am »
0

Guys, about Politician: Do you think it should cost $4? I know it costed $4 before i carried it over to this collection thread, but that had no particular reason as i didn't settle on the vanilla bonus back then. Obviously Parliament/Politician is crazy strong, but i'm willing to accept this as an edge case. Not being able to open with this and another $4 might still be a good idea, though. The question is just whether +$3 and a drawback are actually something you'd consider buying for $4, even if the drawback is just a Chancellor effect...

Alternatively, i could of course change the benefit it gives. For example it could take coin/vp tokens (and give one of the same kind as a possible opponent bonus), which would make sure the card doesn't need tokens just for the possibly rare case you give one to an opponent.

In fact, i could even do both, like:

Politician, Action, $4
Take three coin tokens.
...yadda, yadda, yadda...
He may take a coin token;


Looks pretty strong though, doesn't it? Maybe it's a $5, even. Given that decisions take a while, it maybe shouldn't be easily available.
Edit: On second thought, 3 coin tokens are probably too much at any cost. Not because it's unbalanced, but because it shifts the focus from "political card" to "that one massive coin token card". Maybe this was a bad idea.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 06:45:45 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2015, 01:14:48 pm »
+1

I think Politician should have at most 3 options. Letting him put his deck into his discard pile is a bad option because it only works once (at most), which matters if you play it multiple times or if it's a game with more than two players.

I personally hate to see just one or two cards that use Coin or Victory tokens in a set. It's like, if you don't own this other set, this card is unplayable :P .

So my three options would be "draw a card; trash a card from his hand; gain a Silver".
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2015, 02:55:33 pm »
+1

I think Politician should have at most 3 options. Letting him put his deck into his discard pile is a bad option because it only works once (at most), which matters if you play it multiple times or if it's a game with more than two players.

I personally hate to see just one or two cards that use Coin or Victory tokens in a set. It's like, if you don't own this other set, this card is unplayable :P .

So my three options would be "draw a card; trash a card from his hand; gain a Silver".

Hmm... I see your points. I wanted it to have 5 options so the card could demand you to give another bonus to each player, without that becoming impossible in a 6 player game. The reason was that i wanted the card to be as political as possible, and forcing different choices was a means to ensure that. If i only have 3 options, i have to drop that clause. Maybe that's not horrible, though. Actually, it might be better. Instead of thinking "how can i distribute the bonuses between my opponents so the uselessness is maxed" it's just "what will be the least useful to Charles". It would certainly reduce analysis paralysis.

And you are clearly right about the non-stacking Chancellor effect. I was aware of that, but i guess it's true that in a 4 player match, where everybody plays Politician, the one guy who was chancellor'd first will receive no bonus for the next two plays, either.

Edit: This is how a 3-option-Politician looks:

I admit it's much more simple. A bit... vanilla-ish, even, but i think that's fine. Thank you for your very helpful consideration, LastFootnote :)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 03:08:39 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2015, 04:02:20 pm »
+1

I will now critique the cards that have images. Yay, images!




I am working under the assumption that this card is not meant to be bought. Yes, you might buy it if it's the only +1 Buy on the board, but maybe not even then. The real thrust of Swamp seems to be that you can gain it instead of a Curse, Ruins, etc. It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's worth one of your 10 Kingdom card slots. I don't even think I want Swamp out as an 11th Kingdom pile most of the time. It makes witches weak for a while and it empties fast, and that's about it.




I'm not sure this card needs the on-gain "penalty". Is the idea that it's usually a bonus because it's the only Potion card out? If so, that rubs me the wrong way, though I can see the logic behind it coming from the "full random" crowd.

I don't find Homonculus exciting, but it's probably a fine utility card. Small nitpick: it should say, "Trash a Potion you have in play", not, "Trash a [potion symbol] you have in play."




This is also unexciting. I wonder if it would be too strong if you looked at the top 3 and drew one, discarded one, and put the last one back. Similar to Lookout, but I still think it's an improvement. The current version is very Pearl Diver; usually doesn't hurt, but not enough cool combos to make it pop.




Very cool idea. It makes me sad that you need a village to make it activate, though. Conspirator needs non-terminal Actions, but chances are really good that you'll have some of that in your Kingdom. The chance that you'll have a village is way lower, and without one, River is just +2 Cards.




I am having trouble envisioning a reason to use this other than trashing Estates. I don't think I'm likely to trash a Province for a Gold in hand. I guess I could turn a Duchy into a Silver to buy the last Province, but even that sounds weak. Really the whole card just seems very weak. I'm trying to think of a fix, but I'm coming up short. Even if you put 2 copies of the Treasure into your hand, it has these same issues. That's where i'd start if you want to make this card work, though.

Just noticed it says "discard" instead of "trash". Cool card! I don't think I'd use it on Estates that often, but maybe it makes me want Duchies? Obviously it's great once you have Provinces.




I would make the trashing mandatory. Suggested rewording:

Quote
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash a card from your hand, then reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a more expensive card that shares a type with it. Put that card into your hand and discard the rest.

Cool card. I think I'd like it better with a non-Potion cost and without the +1 Card, but it's definitely a neat concept.




I think that the "if you do" is unnecessary. If you have no cards in your hand to discard, then I think you deserve the +1 Card.

The card isn't very interesting to me. The effect needs to be bigger. At minimum, I would have it discard 2 cards, then draw 2 cards.




Probably another vanilla bonus would be better. Sure, there are a lot of Attack cards with +2 Cards or +$2, but they're classics for a reason.

The attack effect itself has potential. It might cause too much AP, but I think it's worth testing as-is. Suggested rewording:

Quote
Each other player reveals all but 3 cards from his hand. You choose whether he discards them or puts them back in an order of his choice.




Hmm... I think I like it.




I don't think I really understand this. First of all, the chancellor effect seems out of place, especially on a card that draws. If you play it multiple times (throne, multiple copies, etc.), your chancellor effect is just prompting extra shuffles and likely hurts you. I also don't understand why the bottom option helps your targets.

I hate Minion. I hate the way that it casually wipes away good hands and makes the game more random in a really frustrating way. Tribunal is at least wiping your hand intentionally, but I'm not sure that's much better. It seems potentially super harsh and very un-fun to me.




Whoa, that seems weak. Strong with Silk Road, of course, but really weak with no other alt-VP cards. I don't think the combos are common enough to be worth it, and even when they're there, dang you're just slaughtering your deck by buying this.



I'll do the next batch soon. Sorry for the harsh critiques!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 04:06:52 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2015, 04:28:12 pm »
+1



Hmm, might be fine. Sort of like Jubilee for card drawing.




I think this version is worth testing.




Bah, VP chip cards. Well, I guess this is OK. Combos with Copper-trashers and/or alt-VP.




I would take out the third part to keep it simpler.




I have seen this sort of idea before (maybe from your other threads, not sure), and I'm not a huge fan of it. I like the idea of combos with cheap cards, but this seems kludgy to me. I'm struggling to come up with a fix, though. Maybe it's fine.




Cool. If trashing $5 cards into Province/Copper ends up too strong, try having the gained cards go on your deck.




My problem with VP for empty piles is that it's really hard to get them above 3 in most games. A formula VP card that has a range of 1VP to 3VP just doesn't grab me. I like the outside-the-box thinking with the Curse gaining, but it doesn't fix this particular issue.




Hmm, I wonder if this wouldn't be better as a Treasure/Action. Maybe it being a Reaction is less confusing. The card seems maybe a bit weak, but the flexibility is nice.




Worth a shot, I guess. The biggest worry is that the tokens run out in a game with lots of players. I guess you could introduce negative VP tokens for just this problem.




That's all for now!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2015, 04:43:07 pm »
+2

A Tribunal engine could be incredibly painful, forcing them to redraw over and over again until they get a shit hand. You do offer them a chance to improve their hand when you let them keep it and at any later Tribunals, but... it'd just be so unpleasant, and could border on pin territory. And think of all the shuffling.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2015, 04:46:17 pm »
+1

I have had an Idea. What if you add Jeweler's reaction to River?

Quote
River (or Jeweler)
Types: Action - Reaction
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. Put this into your hand.

At the start of your Buy phase, you may discard this. If you do, +$1.

Way more worth buying without villages. With villages, you feel less bad about picking up multiple copies because at worst they're Coppers.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 04:53:02 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2015, 05:05:03 pm »
+1

Jeweler should say "you may discard this from your hand" right? As worded you can discard from play and get both the +3 cards and +$2.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2015, 05:07:57 pm »
+1

I have had an Idea. What if you add Jeweler's reaction to River?

Quote
River (or Jeweler)
Types: Action - Reaction
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. Put this into your hand.

At the start of your Buy phase, you may discard this. If you do, +$1.

Way more worth buying without villages. With villages, you feel less bad about picking up multiple copies because at worst they're Coppers.

I was actually going to suggest the same thing.  Except I think it's actually cleaner as an Action/Treasure.  If you play it as an action, +2 cards and return it to your hand.  If you play it as a treasure, +$1.  I think this might be the first case where an Action/Treasure is really worth doing.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2015, 05:09:52 pm »
+1

Jeweler should say "you may discard this from your hand" right? As worded you can discard from play and get both the +3 cards and +$2.

Discarding is always from your hand unless otherwise stated. Although hey, just another reason to combine River and Jeweler. Then it'd never be in play.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #70 on: February 10, 2015, 05:20:33 pm »
+1

Jeweler should say "you may discard this from your hand" right? As worded you can discard from play and get both the +3 cards and +$2.

Discarding is always from your hand unless otherwise stated. Although hey, just another reason to combine River and Jeweler. Then it'd never be in play.

Hmm, I guess you're right.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2015, 05:41:16 pm »
+1



I am working under the assumption that this card is not meant to be bought. Yes, you might buy it if it's the only +1 Buy on the board, but maybe not even then. The real thrust of Swamp seems to be that you can gain it instead of a Curse, Ruins, etc. It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's worth one of your 10 Kingdom card slots. I don't even think I want Swamp out as an 11th Kingdom pile most of the time. It makes witches weak for a while and it empties fast, and that's about it.

I get what you mean and admit it's likely not worth a pile. Maybe i just grew attached to it and probably that's why i didn't scrap it, yet. I mean, it's certainly not on top of my "to print and try" list, so i guess that's a bad sign.



I'm not sure this card needs the on-gain "penalty". Is the idea that it's usually a bonus because it's the only Potion card out? If so, that rubs me the wrong way, though I can see the logic behind it coming from the "full random" crowd.

I don't find Homonculus exciting, but it's probably a fine utility card. Small nitpick: it should say, "Trash a Potion you have in play", not, "Trash a [potion symbol] you have in play."

Well, in the Hinterlands contest, i tried this for 2$ and with the penalty that you had to set it aside when bought, putting it in your discard only after your next shuffle. It was called "Artifact" back then, and maybe you remember me constantly pestering you with "No, LastFootnote, the wording has to be exactly this way for ominous reasons, stop fixing my weird wordings.". Anyhow, it was clearly overpowered, and so i went to price it at $3, then $4. That seemed balanced. Thing is, having it cost a Potion and trashing that might be marginally worse, but it solves the delayed gain in a much simpler way than strange "set aside" rules. I allready felt the symbol was off, but didn't see what itched me... Thank you for pointing it out.



This is also unexciting. I wonder if it would be too strong if you looked at the top 3 and drew one, discarded one, and put the last one back. Similar to Lookout, but I still think it's an improvement. The current version is very Pearl Diver; usually doesn't hurt, but not enough cool combos to make it pop.

It's allready pretty similar to Vagrant, power-wise, and the fact that you might be seing two good cards, being forced to discard one, is mostly what makes it not-strictly-better. I agree that it's unexciting, though. Another one that's probably fine, just not worth the slot.




Very cool idea. It makes me sad that you need a village to make it activate, though. Conspirator needs non-terminal Actions, but chances are really good that you'll have some of that in your Kingdom. The chance that you'll have a village is way lower, and without one, River is just +2 Cards.

Hmm... I'm not sure whether the "no-Village" scenario isn't really too off-putting... I mean, it's a Moat if there are none... If i was to fix this "issue", it would really have to be a gentle fix, a setup clause seems the most appropriate, but i don't really like even that. A buy, maybe. it's something that you don't really need that many of, anyway...




I am having trouble envisioning a reason to use this other than trashing Estates. I don't think I'm likely to trash a Province for a Gold in hand. I guess I could turn a Duchy into a Silver to buy the last Province, but even that sounds weak. Really the whole card just seems very weak. I'm trying to think of a fix, but I'm coming up short. Even if you put 2 copies of the Treasure into your hand, it has these same issues. That's where i'd start if you want to make this card work, though.

Just noticed it says "discard" instead of "trash". Cool card! I don't think I'd use it on Estates that often, but maybe it makes me want Duchies? Obviously it's great once you have Provinces.

Did you notice that it's a weaker Oasis with Estates and can discard Harems for Harems? ;)
Actually, this started with the premise "something arabic that can gain Harems", and was "Grand Vizier" for a long time. it went through tens of versions... I know that's the absolutely wrong way to do a card, and i'm kind of surprised that after long time, it actually became something interesting. I'm very glad you like it :)




I would make the trashing mandatory. Suggested rewording:

Quote
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash a card from your hand, then reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a more expensive card that shares a type with it. Put that card into your hand and discard the rest.

Cool card. I think I'd like it better with a non-Potion cost and without the +1 Card, but it's definitely a neat concept.

Thanks :)
I'm pretty happy with it. I had high hopes for it in the Alchemy contest. I don't even know why it has the Potion cost, i think i just saw it as fitting. No reason not to give your version a try, though :)




I think that the "if you do" is unnecessary. If you have no cards in your hand to discard, then I think you deserve the +1 Card.

The card isn't very interesting to me. The effect needs to be bigger. At minimum, I would have it discard 2 cards, then draw 2 cards.

When playtesting it, it was usually considered a surprisingly strong $5. The "if you do" is the tiniest nerf. I can see the appeal of keeping it as simple as possible, though, but then again, the card is very simple allready. It's pretty standard, i admit.




Probably another vanilla bonus would be better. Sure, there are a lot of Attack cards with +2 Cards or +$2, but they're classics for a reason.

The attack effect itself has potential. It might cause too much AP, but I think it's worth testing as-is. Suggested rewording:

Quote
Each other player reveals all but 3 cards from his hand. You choose whether he discards them or puts them back in an order of his choice.

Yeah, the bonus is a little off. I wanted one that doesn't make this such an obvious Ghost Ship/Militia mashup and one that didn't work best if you just played one of these every turn. Actions ask for other cards to go with them and scale, the attack doesn't. I think it was my idea of how to make it a little more interesting.




Hmm... I think I like it.

I see nothing wrong with that. Arbitrary piece of information: It's called that way because it incorporates every Trusty Steed bonus in a minor way ;)




I don't think I really understand this. First of all, the chancellor effect seems out of place, especially on a card that draws. If you play it multiple times (throne, multiple copies, etc.), your chancellor effect is just prompting extra shuffles and likely hurts you. I also don't understand why the bottom option helps your targets.

I hate Minion. I hate the way that it casually wipes away good hands and makes the game more random in a really frustrating way. Tribunal is at least wiping your hand intentionally, but I'm not sure that's much better. It seems potentially super harsh and very un-fun to me.

I'm not very happy with this right now, and you pointed out the reasons pretty accurately. The Chancellor effect is probably the worst part. i wanted it on some cards for some reason (Politician being the other one) and when looking for a way to buff this a bit, i decided against a buy and for this. Obviously not my best choice. Anyhow, the bottom option is so you can not spam this until everybody has the worst possible hand. if somebody allready has a terrible hand, you help him a bit. But i see why that's off on an attack. I might have to scrap this. Maybe there's another way of doing the core attack. Even if you don't like it :P




Whoa, that seems weak. Strong with Silk Road, of course, but really weak with no other alt-VP cards. I don't think the combos are common enough to be worth it, and even when they're there, dang you're just slaughtering your deck by buying this.

Well, it's one point less than province for $6. Originally, it also trashed a Province from the supply when gained (so you had a chance that the game would end before you choke) but people argued that emptying 4 piles at once was a little too much... I have never playtested it, and if neither this version nor the Province trashing one works out (i haven't tried that one, either), i'll scrap this.




Hmm, might be fine. Sort of like Jubilee for card drawing.

It's ooooooold... Actually, this card predates Dark Ages. I was worried it might be too bland, but my gaming group at least enjoys it. Funny how it behaves vastly different to Poor House.




I think this version is worth testing.

I'll do that soon, hopefully. :)




Bah, VP chip cards. Well, I guess this is OK. Combos with Copper-trashers and/or alt-VP.

I'll just focus on the "OK", here ;)




I would take out the third part to keep it simpler.

Hm... I'm worried it might keep the card from being worthwile. On the other hand, i assume that having +actions depend on luck isn't very much fun.




I have seen this sort of idea before (maybe from your other threads, not sure), and I'm not a huge fan of it. I like the idea of combos with cheap cards, but this seems kludgy to me. I'm struggling to come up with a fix, though. Maybe it's fine.

Yes, the basic idea is old news. I can see that the strength of a combo here isn't mostly dependant on card price, but more on WHICH specific card you play. Chapel and Secret Chamber are horrible, Fishing Village is awesome. Might scrap it, but for now i'll keep it around just to playtest it a bit.




Cool. If trashing $5 cards into Province/Copper ends up too strong, try having the gained cards go on your deck.

Thanks :)




My problem with VP for empty piles is that it's really hard to get them above 3 in most games. A formula VP card that has a range of 1VP to 3VP just doesn't grab me. I like the outside-the-box thinking with the Curse gaining, but it doesn't fix this particular issue.

Well, the Curse gaining is a means to help you buy time. Originally this started out as "Maze" (german: "Irrgarten", literally "Insane Garden") and counted Curses other players had. It was bad, as it would potentially make you target specific players whenever that was possible. It was critizised for being a bit bland before, and i'm willing to let it go if i must. The premise is an attack-victory that gets more valuable by attacking, of course.




Hmm, I wonder if this wouldn't be better as a Treasure/Action. Maybe it being a Reaction is less confusing. The card seems maybe a bit weak, but the flexibility is nice.

Actually, Action-Treasure is the premise here. I thought if Donald can make a Duration-Copper (Treasury), i can do an Action-Treasure. The Reaction type is my solution to the rules issues Treasure-Actions generate. It's honestly not much more than that, but it's interesting you believe that it might be weak. I considered it a potential one-card-strategy. If i hadn't, i might have done this:

Quote
Jeweler, Action-Reaction, $5
+3 Cards
----
At the end of your buy phase or when another player plays an attack card, you may set this aside. If you do, at the start of your next buy phase: +$2 and discard this.




Worth a shot, I guess. The biggest worry is that the tokens run out in a game with lots of players. I guess you could introduce negative VP tokens for just this problem.

I wanted to avoid having to introduce new material for the card, that's why i went with VP instead of Curse tokens. They are technically unlimited anyhow, but i see that it IS an issue in physical Dominion games... Maybe use some coins or stuff as placeholders? I'm actually preferring that to the introduction of VP tokens, i admit.



Thank you for your critique :)
I don't consider it harsh, but very valuable. You actually pointed out some flaws that i was pondering myself, while on other occasions you made some positive remarks on cards that i was still a little worried about :)
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #72 on: February 10, 2015, 05:47:09 pm »
0

LastFootnote, i like your idea. I'm just not certain whether bringing together two breaks of unwritten Dominion rules isn't a bit too much... Then again, Jeweler is not very exciting but solid, and River might be exciting but sometimes useless. It's actually a neat solution in that respect :)


I have had an Idea. What if you add Jeweler's reaction to River?

Quote
River (or Jeweler)
Types: Action - Reaction
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. Put this into your hand.

At the start of your Buy phase, you may discard this. If you do, +$1.

Way more worth buying without villages. With villages, you feel less bad about picking up multiple copies because at worst they're Coppers.

I was actually going to suggest the same thing.  Except I think it's actually cleaner as an Action/Treasure.  If you play it as an action, +2 cards and return it to your hand.  If you play it as a treasure, +$1.  I think this might be the first case where an Action/Treasure is really worth doing.

I really don't think i want to make it an Action-Treasure, sorry :(
All the rules i'd have to break are just not worth it. I'd rather have a reaction that can never happen outside your turn. At least there's ONE precedent with Hovel.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #73 on: February 10, 2015, 05:47:53 pm »
+2

I wanted to avoid having to introduce new material for the card, that's why i went with VP instead of Curse tokens. They are technically unlimited anyhow, but i see that it IS an issue in physical Dominion games... Maybe use some coins or stuff as placeholders? I'm actually preferring that to the introduction of VP tokens, i admit.

I doubt it's more of an issue than with Goons - I often use Trade Route tokens as 20 or 25 VP in IRL Goons games.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #74 on: February 10, 2015, 05:54:54 pm »
+1

LastFootnote, i like your idea. I'm just not certain whether bringing together two breaks of unwritten Dominion rules isn't a bit too much...

I'm not sure which two rules you mean. I assume you're talking about the two new things it does, which are: a card that returns to your hand when played, and a reaction that always triggers at the start of your buy phase. Do not be afraid of new stuff! New stuff is cool! The important things are:

#1. It's not too confusing.
#2. It plays well (not too many tracking/logistics issues).
#3. It's fun (for at least some players).

Anyway, I don't think the card would be confusing and I think it would play better than River as printed. If it turns out lousy, you can always go back to Jeweler as you have it here. You can try River as you have it here too of course, but I'm not optimistic there. I love how simple River is, but I worry that it's just dead without villages.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2015, 06:00:05 pm »
+1

LastFootnote, i like your idea. I'm just not certain whether bringing together two breaks of unwritten Dominion rules isn't a bit too much...

I'm not sure which two rules you mean. I assume you're talking about the two new things it does, which are: a card that returns to your hand when played, and a reaction that always triggers at the start of your buy phase. Do not be afraid of new stuff! New stuff is cool! The important things are:

#1. It's not too confusing.
#2. It plays well (not too many tracking/logistics issues).
#3. It's fun (for at least some players).

Anyway, I don't think the card would be confusing and I think it would play better than River as printed. If it turns out lousy, you can always go back to Jeweler as you have it here. You can try River as you have it here too of course, but I'm not optimistic there. I love how simple River is, but I worry that it's just dead without villages.

Rats without TfB (and edge cases) is deader than River without villages, and I think there's marginally more villages than TfB? So there are precedents.

Then again I am the guy who campaigned to price River at $5 in that other thread (Counting House argument), so I might be biased.
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TheOthin

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #76 on: February 10, 2015, 06:04:34 pm »
+3

I don't think the Action-Treasure thing would work, either. It'd have two on-play effects, one for playing it as an Action and one for playing it as a Treasure, and the explaining it'd take to lay out both would be much more troublesome than just having it be a Reaction.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #77 on: February 10, 2015, 06:11:15 pm »
+1

LastFootnote, i like your idea. I'm just not certain whether bringing together two breaks of unwritten Dominion rules isn't a bit too much...

I'm not sure which two rules you mean. I assume you're talking about the two new things it does, which are: a card that returns to your hand when played, and a reaction that always triggers at the start of your buy phase. Do not be afraid of new stuff! New stuff is cool! The important things are:

#1. It's not too confusing.
#2. It plays well (not too many tracking/logistics issues).
#3. It's fun (for at least some players).

Anyway, I don't think the card would be confusing and I think it would play better than River as printed. If it turns out lousy, you can always go back to Jeweler as you have it here. You can try River as you have it here too of course, but I'm not optimistic there. I love how simple River is, but I worry that it's just dead without villages.

Rats without TfB (and edge cases) is deader than River without villages, and I think there's marginally more villages than TfB? So there are precedents.

Then again I am the guy who campaigned to price River at $5 in that other thread (Counting House argument), so I might be biased.

Well, Rats can also replace Curses with pseudo-Confusions, which might not be great, but as each played Rats gains another one, the opportunity cost is pretty low, too.

Also, here's how Reaction River would look like:



Fun fact: When i made Jeweler, i breifly considered Moat-Copper instead of Smithy-Silver for $3 because i thought the second option could become a monolithic strategy. I dismissed it as having a too high opportunity cost. I'll definitely try this :)

Edit: Effectively giving +2 cards, +$1 on a single play is pretty strong when compared too Smithy, though... Isn't it?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 06:12:44 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2015, 06:11:50 pm »
+2

I usually use a cell phone as VP tokens in Goons games.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #79 on: February 10, 2015, 06:25:45 pm »
+2

Edit: Effectively giving +2 cards, +$1 on a single play is pretty strong when compared too Smithy, though... Isn't it?

I do think so...

You could try the less exciting "choose one: +1 action, + $1; or +2 cards, return this to your hand."

But I am not convinced River is the card that wants this effect tacked onto it. If there aren't any villages, this doesn't really make it so much more attractive to buy, because the main effect is still only moat. And if there are villages, River is already strong enough. YMMV.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2015, 06:54:31 pm »
0

Edit: Effectively giving +2 cards, +$1 on a single play is pretty strong when compared too Smithy, though... Isn't it?

I do think so...

You could try the less exciting "choose one: +1 action, + $1; or +2 cards, return this to your hand."

But I am not convinced River is the card that wants this effect tacked onto it. If there aren't any villages, this doesn't really make it so much more attractive to buy, because the main effect is still only moat. And if there are villages, River is already strong enough. YMMV.

I don't know. As you said, without Villages, this is still a bad card. So it makes the card more complex without solving its main issue.

I don't really want it to cost $4, either. But i do feel it almost certainly needs to cost that as printed. I mean, it's not strictly better than Smithy, but with the discard for Copper, you can open double-River at practically no risk at all at get more than from Smithy. The only minor deficit is that the +$1 doesn't happen if you play it several times, but the fact that it highly pushes the first play destroys my reason to cost it at $3 in the first place.

I'd rather have it give a buy. Buys don't really scale much, either, and they are also often pretty useless in the early game, contrary to Jeweleriver.
Edit: Of course, the problem here is that you have to count buys without a card in play. Ugh. On the other hand, you have to count Actions, so you might be able to figure it out retrospectively, even if you lose track of the number of buys itself. Official cards also allready have that problem.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 06:58:44 pm by Asper »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #81 on: February 10, 2015, 06:56:42 pm »
+1

I think it's fine at $3. Compare to Courtyard.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #82 on: February 10, 2015, 07:03:00 pm »
+1

I think it's fine at $3. Compare to Courtyard.

I'll try it. Like its older incarnations, it still has the problem of being rather bad if you want those actions for something else. I will also try a version that is just blank River with a buy and see which works better. I really find myself unable to judge its power at this point.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #83 on: February 10, 2015, 08:10:32 pm »
+2

You could word Parliment as

"You may play an action card from your hand. If it costs 4 or less, play it again. If it costs 3 or less, play it a third time."
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #84 on: February 10, 2015, 09:24:43 pm »
0

You could word Parliment as

"You may play an action card from your hand. If it costs 4 or less, play it again. If it costs 3 or less, play it a third time."

It looks nicer than my wording and also doesn't go crazy with cost reducers, but i'd still rather avoid the edge case of cost reducers getting played more often because they altered their own cost on the first play. Maybe i'm too stubborn here, but i experience that cost reduction is one of the most confusing topics (especially to inexperienced players), and i'd like to avoid a wording that opens that door if not necessary.

Edit: but i'll think about it tomorrow and maybe give it a shot. Thank you for the suggestion :)
I'm off for now, it's 03:26. Good night and thank you all for your great ideas and considerations. :D
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 09:27:36 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #85 on: February 11, 2015, 12:20:23 am »
+1

Regarding Dungeon and Paddock, I know it's not always meaningful to blue-sky compare costs based on changing vanilla bonuses, but:

I think Paddock (Peddler + gain a Silver) seems pretty strong for $5. Compare Explorer, which is usually "terminal silver, gain a Silver" for $5; Peddler is a lot stronger than terminal silver. I dunno, I recognize that Explorer has a shot at Gold-gaining, so maaaaybe it evens out.

Dungeon (curser + Victory card per empty pile) sounds balanced to me. It's a scaling victory card, yes; but don't think of it as a scaling card because it doesn't scale very much. Think of it as more like Nobles or Harem or Tunnel, a functional Victory card worth about 2 points. This makes Dungeon : Witch :: Dame Josephine : Sir Destry, which seems like a fair $5 card. Dame Josephine is on the weak side, but Dungeon has the added bonus that you have a shot at getting it up to 3 points in some games.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2015, 04:27:16 am »
+1

Regarding Dungeon and Paddock, I know it's not always meaningful to blue-sky compare costs based on changing vanilla bonuses, but:

I think Paddock (Peddler + gain a Silver) seems pretty strong for $5. Compare Explorer, which is usually "terminal silver, gain a Silver" for $5; Peddler is a lot stronger than terminal silver. I dunno, I recognize that Explorer has a shot at Gold-gaining, so maaaaybe it evens out.

Dungeon (curser + Victory card per empty pile) sounds balanced to me. It's a scaling victory card, yes; but don't think of it as a scaling card because it doesn't scale very much. Think of it as more like Nobles or Harem or Tunnel, a functional Victory card worth about 2 points. This makes Dungeon : Witch :: Dame Josephine : Sir Destry, which seems like a fair $5 card. Dame Josephine is on the weak side, but Dungeon has the added bonus that you have a shot at getting it up to 3 points in some games.

Well, Explorer looks weak when compared to Squire, too. $1 coin for what, a cost decrease of $3, two additional options and an on-trash clause? O-okay... I think we have to consider the Gold gaining as something big, even if it isn't, just so Explorer doesn't look bad in comparison to a lot of cards, especially Silver gainers. Think of Ironworks, too. Paddock can draw dead cards, which is made up by the fact that it can draw Silvers. It has an action but can't get you Gold. I know it's a close call, but i wouldn't really like to make Paddock worse only because Explorer is weak. If it playtests as too strong (which might still be the case), that's something different. Some people have pointed out that it's an engine component that clogs engines.

About Dungeon, i can't really add much to what you said. I need to try it a bit. I'm certainly more concerned about fun than about cost, here.

Edit: If Paddock turns out too good, i could still make a version for $4 without th +$1... Bye bye, Trusty Steed bonus...
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 04:37:17 am by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #87 on: February 11, 2015, 04:44:29 am »
+1

You could word Parliment as

"You may play an action card from your hand. If it costs 4 or less, play it again. If it costs 3 or less, play it a third time."

Thinking about this, i can really see its appeal. It's about as simple as my "the same as this/less than it" wording, just with cost reduction possible. The mid-execution cost change with Bridge and Highway really feels a bit off to me though... Then again, crazier things can happen, and it DOES tell you what to do right on the card. I might just as well give this a try :-)
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #88 on: February 11, 2015, 07:43:38 am »
+3

You could word Parliment as

"You may play an action card from your hand. If it costs 4 or less, play it again. If it costs 3 or less, play it a third time."

Thinking about this, i can really see its appeal. It's about as simple as my "the same as this/less than it" wording, just with cost reduction possible. The mid-execution cost change with Bridge and Highway really feels a bit off to me though... Then again, crazier things can happen, and it DOES tell you what to do right on the card. I might just as well give this a try :-)

At least it doesn't play Bridge 5 times. :p
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #89 on: February 11, 2015, 10:28:53 am »
+1

"Gain a Silver in hand" seems like a $4 effect, especially in comparison to Squire. Which puts Explorer in a strange spot but we knew that.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2015, 11:03:40 am »
+1

Allright, here's Palindrome Bard... um, i mean Drab Emordnilap's Parliament:


Ha! Ha! Ha! I don't know how that happened...
*beat*
Now, seriously:



Edit: I have to say, it's really a version to consider :)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 11:05:30 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2015, 11:19:17 am »
+1

I think the "play it a third time" phrasing is more clear. Also, you should have commas rather than colons in the text.

EDIT: Can I offer you a better template, Asper? Which program are you using to make these images?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 11:43:38 am by LastFootnote »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #92 on: February 11, 2015, 12:09:23 pm »
0

I think the "play it a third time" phrasing is more clear. Also, you should have commas rather than colons in the text.

EDIT: Can I offer you a better template, Asper? Which program are you using to make these images?

I figured "once more" was sufficient, but i used that mostly to avoid a line break, so there's no good reason against "a third time" if you think that's better. Aren't commas misleading you into believing the lines are alternatives? I know semicolons would do that, but i'm not sure about commas.


I would be very grateful for a better template :)
I made mine using Photoshop and some templates i found online. When i had to print them, i shifted them slightly because it gave better results, but forgot to change it back, which is why they are a bit askew.
Edit: I don't mind using another software, though, if that produces better-looking cards :)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 12:11:10 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #93 on: February 11, 2015, 12:22:04 pm »
+1

I figured "once more" was sufficient, but i used that mostly to avoid a line break, so there's no good reason against "a third time" if you think that's better. Aren't commas misleading you into believing the lines are alternatives? I know semicolons would do that, but i'm not sure about commas.

I would say the colons mislead you into thinking the lines are alternatives. The "a third time" clarifies further that they are cumulative.

I would be very grateful for a better template :)
I made mine using Photoshop and some templates i found online. When i had to print them, i shifted them slightly because it gave better results, but forgot to change it back, which is why they are a bit askew.
Edit: I don't mind using another software, though, if that produces better-looking cards :)

My template may be the same as the one you use now, but I've improved it significantly over the years. I'll send it to you later when I have access to my home computer. It's in .xcf format because I use GIMP. Maybe Photoshop can read that format, I'm not sure.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #94 on: February 11, 2015, 12:38:23 pm »
0

I figured "once more" was sufficient, but i used that mostly to avoid a line break, so there's no good reason against "a third time" if you think that's better. Aren't commas misleading you into believing the lines are alternatives? I know semicolons would do that, but i'm not sure about commas.

I would say the colons mislead you into thinking the lines are alternatives. The "a third time" clarifies further that they are cumulative.

That's a good point. "Once more" might technically be mistaken to mean the same as "a second time". Allright, i'll change that.


I would be very grateful for a better template :)
I made mine using Photoshop and some templates i found online. When i had to print them, i shifted them slightly because it gave better results, but forgot to change it back, which is why they are a bit askew.
Edit: I don't mind using another software, though, if that produces better-looking cards :)

My template may be the same as the one you use now, but I've improved it significantly over the years. I'll send it to you later when I have access to my home computer. It's in .xcf format because I use GIMP. Maybe Photoshop can read that format, I'm not sure.

Thank you :)
I'm not very experienced with Gimp, but i'm sure it's going to work out one way or another.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2015, 03:49:24 pm »
0

Ah, i see i misundertood you point before because i mistook "colon" for "period". Confused me a bit. So i believe this is what we are talking about.



It might be okay. Bridge and Highway are only two cards, anyhow. Well, and you could play Herald/Throne Room/ Parliament/King's Court to play Black Market to play 1-2 Quarries and be able to play Herald/Throne Room/Parliament/King's Court two more times... But i think that's it.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2015, 03:59:32 pm »
+3

Although even 2-card combos are not that common, it's worth noting that Parliament-Parliament-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge is as good as KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge except that Parliament costs 4 instead of 7. So I'm guessing that almost any board with both cards (and and sort of draw to help them combine) is going to be a race to play that.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2015, 04:10:55 pm »
+1

I blame Bridge. I really wish its cost reduction were "while in play" like all the others.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #98 on: February 11, 2015, 05:26:16 pm »
0

Although even 2-card combos are not that common, it's worth noting that Parliament-Parliament-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge is as good as KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge except that Parliament costs 4 instead of 7. So I'm guessing that almost any board with both cards (and and sort of draw to help them combine) is going to be a race to play that.

Oh my, good point. That's really not something i'd want.

You can reduce the effect of Parliament-Parliament-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge a little if you change the wording to first distinguish between costs and only then play the card a set number of times: "If it costs $3 or less: Play it three times. If it costs $4: Play it twice. If it costs $5 or more: Play it once." I tried something like that before, and, well, the wording wasn't very elegant. Anyhow, it reduces the Bridge count to 5 plays instead of nine. It gets bumped up to 7 if you start your PPBBB hand with a spare action, and becomes 9 again if you somehow played a Bridge before.

The other option, which i posted earlier, would be to compare the price of the action with Parliament itself, effectively killing any cost reduction combos: "If it costs more than this: Play it once. If it costs the same: Play it twice. If it costs less: Play it 3 times."

And then of course there's scrapping the card alltogether...
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #99 on: February 11, 2015, 05:34:27 pm »
+1

Pretty sure that the option to play a card from your hand once should only be there if it makes the card simpler to word.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #100 on: February 11, 2015, 06:07:19 pm »
0

Pretty sure that the option to play a card from your hand once should only be there if it makes the card simpler to word.

Hmm, yeah... I saw the benefit of adding it in the fact that it covers all cases, making the card possibly easier to grasp. You won't sit there, wondering "Huh, and what does it do if the card costs more?". I might be wrong, though, and i'm far from unwilling to remove this part if that's better.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 06:08:27 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #101 on: February 11, 2015, 06:13:26 pm »
+4

Have you considered adding underline text?

"In games using this, bridge costs $17P."

EDIT: just to be safe.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 06:21:54 pm by pacovf »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #102 on: February 11, 2015, 08:27:20 pm »
0



Allright, i think i have narrowed it down to these two. I like the wording on the right better, but the left one allows more combos and i'm leaning a bit more towards it for this reason.

A PPBBB hand can still get crazy if you play a Highway first, but that's a 3-card-combo. You can also play a Bridge before setting up that hand, but you'd either have to use Prince (another 3-card-combo) or have PPBBBB in hand and an action to spare, which is quite a bit harder to do. Either way, i can live with those possibilities. Highway can get played up to 3 times depending on how many you played before, but it doesn't do anything Pawn can't on those additional plays, so that's fine.

And Princess... Um, well... Let's just say she's very much into politics.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #103 on: February 11, 2015, 08:35:51 pm »
+1

I like the left, but with an added "otherwise." As is, if there's ever a way to increase the cost of cards in the middle of a turn, then you can play a card 5 times. And fan cards or new official cards could do that some day.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #104 on: February 11, 2015, 08:52:56 pm »
0

I like the left, but with an added "otherwise." As is, if there's ever a way to increase the cost of cards in the middle of a turn, then you can play a card 5 times. And fan cards or new official cards could do that some day.

Yes, that's better. I have looked through the pages and was sure i had it there at some point, but it turns out i never had. Good catch.

Edit: Ah, no, i just assumed there wouldn't be such cards because of the rules confusion with Highway. Anyhow, it's still probably better.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 08:53:57 pm by Asper »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #105 on: February 11, 2015, 08:58:58 pm »
+1

I like the left, but with an added "otherwise." As is, if there's ever a way to increase the cost of cards in the middle of a turn, then you can play a card 5 times. And fan cards or new official cards could do that some day.

Yes, that's better. I have looked through the pages and was sure i had it there at some point, but it turns out i never had. Good catch.

Edit: Ah, no, i just assumed there wouldn't be such cards because of the rules confusion with Highway. Anyhow, it's still probably better.

I agree that making cards more expensive is unlikely for the reason you state, but making a card cheaper until sometime other than end of turn seems possible.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #106 on: February 11, 2015, 09:28:59 pm »
0

I like the left, but with an added "otherwise." As is, if there's ever a way to increase the cost of cards in the middle of a turn, then you can play a card 5 times. And fan cards or new official cards could do that some day.

Yes, that's better. I have looked through the pages and was sure i had it there at some point, but it turns out i never had. Good catch.

Edit: Ah, no, i just assumed there wouldn't be such cards because of the rules confusion with Highway. Anyhow, it's still probably better.

I agree that making cards more expensive is unlikely for the reason you state, but making a card cheaper until sometime other than end of turn seems possible.

Well, it could also happen if you did a card that only makes some cards cheaper. There even is a precedent with Quarry.

I'm leaving for now, it's pretty late here. Anyhow, here's my latest take on Parliament. I reordered it so the $4 option comes first. Now the bonus scales up, and "otherwise, if it costs less" seems a lot less weird than "otherwise, if it costs $4" in my opinion.


Thanks for the tips and considerations :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #107 on: February 11, 2015, 09:48:22 pm »
+3

I sent Asper the template just now, but I also mocked up River just for fun (I might test it myself eventually). So I thought why not post my version of it.



It has two exotic concepts, but it really is a dead simple card.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #108 on: February 12, 2015, 12:44:31 pm »
+1

I sent Asper the template just now, but I also mocked up River just for fun (I might test it myself eventually). So I thought why not post my version of it.



It has two exotic concepts, but it really is a dead simple card.

This really looks much better than my template.
Thank you again for sharing :)

I also allready tried it out a bit. Very nice :)
Here's something i did with it, a variant that gives you the choice to take a buy instead of returning it to your hand. Without Villages, it's a Woodcutter that draws instead of giving coins, so it's pretty weak. Ah, maybe it's really too weak...



Anyhow, i will test both the version you mocked up and this as soon as i can. If it shows Jeweleriver isn't too superior to Smithy, i'll go with it, but it's nice to have an alternative, i guess. I can't tell when my next playtest will be, though, i'm procrastinating my studies right now as is... ;)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #109 on: February 12, 2015, 04:23:12 pm »
+1

Throne Room could have some weird interactions with that wording, although it's not like an excess of buys would matter too often.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #110 on: February 12, 2015, 04:27:18 pm »
+2

I don't think the +buy makes sense. How often do you even need +buy if there isn't a village?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #111 on: February 12, 2015, 05:34:47 pm »
+1

I don't think the +buy makes sense. How often do you even need +buy if there isn't a village?

You're playing... um... uh... Big Money, maybe? Or... a slog? Yeah... a slog, that's it!

Allright, i know a buy isn't awesome. I'd just like to have a buff over blank River that doesn't make Smithy obsolete or make the card overly complex. LastFootnote's fix does the second thinkg, and if the first turns out allright, i'll use it. There might be something Smithy can that River can't, and i may be blind for it right now. Playtesting will tell. I could also cost it at $4, but because the majority of Villages now costs $4 or more, i'd like to avoid that too, if possible.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #112 on: February 12, 2015, 08:01:39 pm »
+1

I don't think the +buy makes sense. How often do you even need +buy if there isn't a village?

I thought about this. Let's just assume there's no Village. What could make you buy a River with a buy? A cantrip engine? Hardly. Would you buy Smithy for a cantrip engine? I don't know about you, but i probably wouldn't. River doesn't need to be good on any board. Smithy isn't, either. It's okay if you have actions to spend or if you are basically playing big money. The buy adds a few Alt-VP scenarios. I think that's sufficient. But i might want to price it at $2 with the version i suggested. I really don't know. Which is why i'll make a few solo playtests now. It's far from as good as multiplayer, but hey, it's 2 in the morning here, i probably shouldn't wake the neighbors for testing my card. Or should i...? Hm...
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #113 on: February 12, 2015, 08:07:39 pm »
+1

it's 2 in the morning here, i probably shouldn't wake the neighbors for testing my card. Or should i...? Hm...

I'm sure they will understand, if you explain that it's a matter of life and death. I mean, every second you spend thinking that basic River could reasonably cost $2 is one second of high heart attack risk for me.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #114 on: February 12, 2015, 11:00:06 pm »
+1

it's 2 in the morning here, i probably shouldn't wake the neighbors for testing my card. Or should i...? Hm...

I'm sure they will understand, if you explain that it's a matter of life and death. I mean, every second you spend thinking that basic River could reasonably cost $2 is one second of high heart attack risk for me.

Silly pacovf, we're not talking basic River costing $2. We're talking River-with-a-buy costing $2.
But i wouldn't want you to die, so let's just claim i never said that. Unless of course, playtesting reveals that's actually reasonable.

About playtesting, did i mention how unsatisfying solo playtests are? I just played a game with River-plus-buy for $3, and while there were no Villages, there was Highway, and all other cards giving buys costed $5 or more. River-Highway barely won against Wharf-Big Money and Stewart-Counterfeit-supported Grand Market. Why? Because solo playtesting sucks. Or at least i do suck at solo playtesting. Curse those neighbors and their petty "need for sleep".
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #115 on: February 13, 2015, 12:01:58 pm »
+1

You got some pretty cool ideas there, Mister Asper ;) I am kind of surprised how multiple creators of fan cards differ in their preferred concepts and ideas and all of them can make reasonable cards that rarely overlap with what other people do. I don't see a comprehensive concept among your cards but that's not a problem nor is that the point of your ideas, I assume.

I will give you my thoughts on your cards, always referring to the most recent version of them I can find.

Swamp: The basic thought behind it is neat but I don't like how it just makes every cursing attack so much weaker with literally no downside to it. Maybe you can come up with something better? Something that makes it a non-trivial decision whether you really want the Swamp over Curse. I was thinking about a side-effect that harms you right now, like "While this is in the Supply, when you gain a card, you may gain this instead. If you do, discard 2 cards."

Homunculus: I like the options you have with it. I just don't see why (a) you should trash a Potion on-gain, (b) it should be a Potion-cost card in the first place, and (c) it should be a cantrip. That doesn't mean I consider these bad decisions. I would be glad if you clarified, though, because I cannot seem to follow your explanation for it.

Ranger: I agree with LFN, it's not very exciting but it's something that you should still go for because it's not bad. And it would be even better and probably a little more exciting if you looked at 3 cards, drew one, discarded one and put one back. That should still work for $2. Pretty strong, though.

River (the version by LFN): I love how simple and clever and useful it is. I totally want to play-test this :D

Sultan: Great idea! Some nice synergies, e. g. with Fool's Gold, Harem (nice one) and many Treasures from Prosperity. I will probably play-test Sultan, too.

Incantation: Another cool concept, although I also prefer LFN's suggestion "+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash a card from your hand, then reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a more expensive card that shares a type with it. Put that card into your hand and discard the rest." I know you're happy with the original but the man knows what he's talking about ;) Simpler is better in this case.

Aqueduct: Dunno, seems fine but... needs more oomph, I suppose.

Assassin: Another cool idea and I personally don't mind the break it causes because the decisions really matter (unlike with Spy, which we all know is more of nuisance to all players than an attack). The vanilla bonus seems weird at first but hey, it doesn't say anywhere you can't or shouldn't do that. The attack doesn't stack so it's fine imo. It's even adequate for such a strong attack.

Paddock: Cute. Somehow, I like it more than Aqueduct - not that they're related anyway.

Tribunal: You are open towards political cards! This is meant as an accusation! Jokes aside, I think there are cases where you can do such things but this is the wrong place for it. Each player should be treated the same way and maybe they could reveal only a part of their hand, though I'm not sure about that. Anyway, if you see cards from each other player's hand and then have to make one decision for all of them, that would (perhaps) be less frustrating and really make the attacking player think about it. The Chancellor option has no place on that card.

Meadow: Too many gains. I don't have a better suggestion at the moment. I just think one gain shouldn't come with two more gains, especially when all of them are Victory cards.

Alley: Seems fine and balanced. Sorry, I can't say more right now but I might play-test it eventually.

Politician: This is the right way to do a political card ;) You don't know anything about the hands of other players without the help of other cards and that's good. It encourages attention and strategic gameplay. Tribunal, on the other hand gives you too much information and power. It should do only one of the things.

Hospital: It's good that Hospital has a limitation to how many VP you can get with it. It's bad that diluting your deck with Coppers will drag out the game because Hospitals will be played less frequently while players still might be unwilling to end it as long as there are Coppers in the Supply. So I'm not okay with it.

Nouveau Riche: I like it. Dominion has some cards that mitigate or even reward greening, and those are necessary, within limits. While I don't have a problem with the third paragraph, I still suggest at least testing the card without it for previously stated reasons.

Parliament: I can't estimate how balanced it is but you're probably way ahead of me in that regard. So I'll just say, it's a good TR-variant. I'd like to play-test that.

Assemble: I would say the exact same thing as LFN^^ ("Cool. If trashing $5 cards into Province/Copper ends up too strong, try having the gained cards go on your deck.")

Dungeon: Similarly to Meadow, too much self-synergy, plus it's really bland and lackluster.

Jeweler: I assume this fused with the old River into the new River? Anyway, Jeweler seems fine as a Reaction. Maybe too weak but maybe not. I also regret that the Dominion rules make it very difficult to properly implement an Action/Treasure card, although there could have been some elegant solutions for this, I'm sure.

Vampire: Yeesh, I saw these kinds of cards manifold before and they all seem so MtG and so anti-Dominion (the name and image of the card add to that sensation). Balance and tactics aside, I don't like it. Sorry, it's not Dominion for me.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #116 on: February 13, 2015, 03:47:22 pm »
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You got some pretty cool ideas there, Mister Asper ;) I am kind of surprised how multiple creators of fan cards differ in their preferred concepts and ideas and all of them can make reasonable cards that rarely overlap with what other people do. I don't see a comprehensive concept among your cards but that's not a problem nor is that the point of your ideas, I assume.

I like to do new things, i guess. Some of them end up good, others not so much. I'm glad you think some ideas are cool :)
At some point i tried to make a fan set or two, but half of the cards were always not good enough, and so i was left with a random mix. It's why this thread is "Asper's cards" and not "Asper's Fan Expansion" ;)
Also your post reminds me that i should probably update my Opening Post.



Swamp: The basic thought behind it is neat but I don't like how it just makes every cursing attack so much weaker with literally no downside to it. Maybe you can come up with something better? Something that makes it a non-trivial decision whether you really want the Swamp over Curse. I was thinking about a side-effect that harms you right now, like "While this is in the Supply, when you gain a card, you may gain this instead. If you do, discard 2 cards."

I think i saw it as the non-obvious downside that a Curser would give you quite a lot more junk than usual if you gain Swamps. 10 Curses in a 2-player game are bad, but 10 Curses and 10 Swamps are awful. It prolongues the junking. That said, i'm accepting that the overall feedback on Swamp is negative. I wanted it to be bad enough to not destroy junkers completely and at the same time add something you might buy it on your own. Probably that's where the problem comes from, it'll always be too bad or too good.



Homunculus: I like the options you have with it. I just don't see why (a) you should trash a Potion on-gain, (b) it should be a Potion-cost card in the first place, and (c) it should be a cantrip. That doesn't mean I consider these bad decisions. I would be glad if you clarified, though, because I cannot seem to follow your explanation for it.

Well, as i said to LastFootnote, this started out as a cantrip trasher for $2. It always had the exact same text above the line, and was grotesquely powerful. One way to weaken it would be to remove the draw, but then it's just not the same card anymore:

Quote
+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand. If you don't, put a card from your hand on top of your deck.
(Left out the discard option for obvious reasons)

For the Hinterlands contest, i instead tried a version that would get set aside when gained, only to be put in your discard after your next shuffle. Well, turns out that a delayed gain doesn't do enough to keep this from being dominating. So i tried it at $3, then $4. That seemed okay, at least you can't normally open double-Homunculus (or Artifact, at that time), anymore. Just, if it costs $4 and is gained with a delay, i could just as well make it cost a Potion and trash that on play. At least you don't have to worry about weird Trader, Inn or whatever interaction, and don't need to introduce new rules. So, this actually wasn't a Potion card for a long time - it just solved two problems at once. I can imagine a lot of reasons why a card shouldn't cost a Potion, but here i saw it as the best option.



Ranger: I agree with LFN, it's not very exciting but it's something that you should still go for because it's not bad. And it would be even better and probably a little more exciting if you looked at 3 cards, drew one, discarded one and put one back. That should still work for $2. Pretty strong, though.

Well, when choosing between only two, this is still commonly better than Vagrant if the first card is worse than the second. It's about equally good if both cards are bad or the second card is worse than the second, as long as you don't consider handsize. Ranger is worse than Vagrant if both revealed cards are something you'd want to draw, or if both at least are better than you can expect from your deck on average. Having said that, i would rather drop this than letting it reveal 3 cards. We'd have another Outlook then (i assume it would have to cost $3), and i think Outlook doesn't need a brother. Considering it's generally viewed as boring, dropping seems appropriate.



River (the version by LFN): I love how simple and clever and useful it is. I totally want to play-test this :D

That would be great. Do so and tell about it :D
I guess we can consider this the preferred version of the card right now (pacovf may disagree ;) ).



Sultan: Great idea! Some nice synergies, e. g. with Fool's Gold, Harem (nice one) and many Treasures from Prosperity. I will probably play-test Sultan, too.

Woo-Hoo! Thanks :)



Incantation: Another cool concept, although I also prefer LFN's suggestion "+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash a card from your hand, then reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a more expensive card that shares a type with it. Put that card into your hand and discard the rest." I know you're happy with the original but the man knows what he's talking about ;) Simpler is better in this case.

Yeah, i guess you two are right. I'll change it.



Aqueduct: Dunno, seems fine but... needs more oomph, I suppose.

i tried to add a bit of complexity by nerfing this before in the Prosperity contest (it made attacks you played while it was out do nothing). It was not well received. Power wise, i think it's more than decent, but it's certainly one of the more boring cards. Anyhow, it's one of the better tested cards, too, and plays nice and easy. As it allready exists, i'm not worrying about card space, either. I can see why you would want something more appealing, though.



Assassin: Another cool idea and I personally don't mind the break it causes because the decisions really matter (unlike with Spy, which we all know is more of nuisance to all players than an attack). The vanilla bonus seems weird at first but hey, it doesn't say anywhere you can't or shouldn't do that. The attack doesn't stack so it's fine imo. It's even adequate for such a strong attack.

Good to hear you don't mind the bonus. As you figured, the attack's strength is why the bonus is not worth much on its own. You need other cards to go with. I imagined it could be interesting to have an attack engine where the attack plays the Village part. It wasn't ever playtested, though, so i wouldn't be surprised if i missed something here. Maybe the attack is just too cruel to be fun, too.



Paddock: Cute. Somehow, I like it more than Aqueduct - not that they're related anyway.

Thanks :)



Tribunal: You are open towards political cards! This is meant as an accusation! Jokes aside, I think there are cases where you can do such things but this is the wrong place for it. Each player should be treated the same way and maybe they could reveal only a part of their hand, though I'm not sure about that. Anyway, if you see cards from each other player's hand and then have to make one decision for all of them, that would (perhaps) be less frustrating and really make the attacking player think about it. The Chancellor option has no place on that card.

The Chancellor effect is rubbish. LastFootnote told me, you tell me, and i kind of saw it coming anyhow. The only reason why this card is still there the way it is is because i didn't undertake any effort to fix it. Probably because i know that the core concept itself isn't very fun (choose whether opponent keeps or discards his hand).
I don't quite see why it's political, though. I mean, you choose the worst option for every opponent. Though i CAN see how you get the idea - it could theoretically be used to actively support a certain player... Generally, i find choosing an option for all players even more political. If four people play and only the leading guy has a good hand, do i let them all draw new cards, even if it helps more players than it hurts?
I'm going to remove this card for now. Maybe i'll bring back the core idea later, but at this time it just has too many issues.



Meadow: Too many gains. I don't have a better suggestion at the moment. I just think one gain shouldn't come with two more gains, especially when all of them are Victory cards.

I see this isn't really popular. Still i kind of want to try this out sooner or later. But you guys have a reason to not like it, and maybe i'm being stubborn. I'll put it on my testing list and take it out for now.



Alley: Seems fine and balanced. Sorry, I can't say more right now but I might play-test it eventually.

That would be awesome :)
My group tested it a bit and it's fairly popular, but of course that doesn't mean anything (as they are mostly relatives without in-depth dominion strategy knowledge).



Politician: This is the right way to do a political card ;) You don't know anything about the hands of other players without the help of other cards and that's good. It encourages attention and strategic gameplay. Tribunal, on the other hand gives you too much information and power. It should do only one of the things.

Thanks :)



Hospital: It's good that Hospital has a limitation to how many VP you can get with it. It's bad that diluting your deck with Coppers will drag out the game because Hospitals will be played less frequently while players still might be unwilling to end it as long as there are Coppers in the Supply. So I'm not okay with it.

Hmm, interesting point. I figured that gaining a Copper would be an incentive to buy something if you allready watered down your deck for that extra coin. I mean, if you don't, your deck will constantly become worse. I might misjudge Hospitals power, but i believed that this would be a rather weak strategy, potentially beatable with things as simple as Big Money+. Of course, if there is decent trashing, you might as well create a timed Golden Deck. If it works, the Copper pile should drain quickly. The worst case would probably be a game where all players attempt such a Golden deck, only to find out that the trashing isn't good enough (and not bad enough to make switching to another strategy better). Then again, you can have a game where everybody thinks an unsupported Poor House/Rats/whatever other support-dependant card was the best choice...



Nouveau Riche: I like it. Dominion has some cards that mitigate or even reward greening, and those are necessary, within limits. While I don't have a problem with the third paragraph, I still suggest at least testing the card without it for previously stated reasons.

I'll change it for now. If it turns out to be better with that option, i can still add it again, later :)



Parliament: I can't estimate how balanced it is but you're probably way ahead of me in that regard. So I'll just say, it's a good TR-variant. I'd like to play-test that.

Thank you :)
I'd be curious as to how it turns out if you playtest it.



Assemble: I would say the exact same thing as LFN^^ ("Cool. If trashing $5 cards into Province/Copper ends up too strong, try having the gained cards go on your deck.")

I don't mind doing that, if it turns out to be needed.



Dungeon: Similarly to Meadow, too much self-synergy, plus it's really bland and lackluster.

Yeah, another one that's more about the idea than about the card. I think it is balanced, but it's certainly bland. I don't really see the self-synergy with Meadow, though. I mean, i think Farmlands has more of that than Meadow, i think.



Jeweler: I assume this fused with the old River into the new River? Anyway, Jeweler seems fine as a Reaction. Maybe too weak but maybe not. I also regret that the Dominion rules make it very difficult to properly implement an Action/Treasure card, although there could have been some elegant solutions for this, I'm sure.

This was the most elegant way i found, but maybe there's something better. Obviously Jeweler is obsolete if River stays in in the form LastFootnote suggested.



Vampire: Yeesh, I saw these kinds of cards manifold before and they all seem so MtG and so anti-Dominion (the name and image of the card add to that sensation). Balance and tactics aside, I don't like it. Sorry, it's not Dominion for me.

That's fine. I'm aware it's a bit off. It's from a time when i was working on a "Fantasy" expansion and started out as one of those awful "Curse/Actions". Now we all know Curse/Actions are horrible. This was my solution as to how you can avoid the issue with trashing, make it scale with each use, and still not be dependant on the Curse pile or on new tokens. It's a bit like Jeweler. An experiment about whether you can actually make a certain concept work while staying inside Dominion's existing ruleset.



Thank you very much for your critique and suggestions :)

Edit: I'm going to update the OP as soon as i am finished mocking up the current versions with LastFootnote's awesome template. Yay! :D
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 03:54:47 pm by Asper »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #117 on: February 13, 2015, 03:59:55 pm »
+1

I'd just like to have a buff over blank River that doesn't make Smithy obsolete or make the card overly complex. LastFootnote's fix does the second thinkg, and if the first turns out allright, i'll use it. There might be something Smithy can that River can't, and i may be blind for it right now. Playtesting will tell. I could also cost it at $4, but because the majority of Villages now costs $4 or more, i'd like to avoid that too, if possible.

I meant to post this awhile ago, but life happens. Posting it now!

Although I haven't tested it yet, I'd say it's pretty likely that $3 Reaction-River isn't just better than Smithy. BM-River may be better than BM-Smithy in the same way that BM-Courtyard is better than BM-Smithy. But if you're building a draw engine, you'd rather have Smithies that Courtyards. Similarly, I think sometimes you'd rather have Smithies than Rivers. If you only have one River in your draw engine deck, you're screwed if you don't get it in your hand. But adding too many Rivers hurts because each additional River you draw in a turn is effectively a Copper, whereas each Smithy you draw is a Smithy. Also, Smithy just cycles 50% more than River, which is very significant.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #118 on: February 13, 2015, 05:31:51 pm »
+1

I'd just like to have a buff over blank River that doesn't make Smithy obsolete or make the card overly complex. LastFootnote's fix does the second thinkg, and if the first turns out allright, i'll use it. There might be something Smithy can that River can't, and i may be blind for it right now. Playtesting will tell. I could also cost it at $4, but because the majority of Villages now costs $4 or more, i'd like to avoid that too, if possible.

I meant to post this awhile ago, but life happens. Posting it now!

Although I haven't tested it yet, I'd say it's pretty likely that $3 Reaction-River isn't just better than Smithy. BM-River may be better than BM-Smithy in the same way that BM-Courtyard is better than BM-Smithy. But if you're building a draw engine, you'd rather have Smithies that Courtyards. Similarly, I think sometimes you'd rather have Smithies than Rivers. If you only have one River in your draw engine deck, you're screwed if you don't get it in your hand. But adding too many Rivers hurts because each additional River you draw in a turn is effectively a Copper, whereas each Smithy you draw is a Smithy. Also, Smithy just cycles 50% more than River, which is very significant.

I have thought a bit about this, and the idea you suggested to put Jeweler and River together is just too good. Unless there comes up hard data that says it behaves better in both engines and Big Money, i'd say let's just use the Reaction version.

Also, i'm not even sure River is better for BM. It's like a Smithy that always draws a Copper as the third card. Depending on how your deck looks, it might be worse.

Edit: I updated the OP with new mockups made with your awesome template. Yay! :D
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 06:09:32 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #119 on: February 14, 2015, 04:59:41 pm »
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I really wish it was possible to find pictures of medieval nobleman on horses looking fierce and holding a pergament... :(
I mocked up a version for Charter with only pergament (sans fierce guy on horse), but that simply doesn't look like an attack anymore...



Edit: Renamed it because without the horse-person "Charter" neither looks nor sounds very attack-like.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 05:04:28 pm by Asper »
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polot38

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #120 on: February 14, 2015, 06:31:59 pm »
+1

A few comments:
1. Ranger. Is the version i am reading right? +1 Card, +1 action, then get another card? Thats far better than a lab, and at 2$ cost…
2. River is just plain OP. Part of the thing about why moat and such aren't good drawers is that all cards have an implicit -1 Card in their effect. This card has no such drawback (essentially becoming a perpetual smithy), aside from the first time you play it in any given turn, and allows engines to fire very easily with very few of these and a lot of villages (the basic village becoming essentially a +3 cards +1 action with this in play…).
3. An attack/treasure? This seems far too spammable, even with the nerf you gave it. I could just buy this a lot, have a good economy, all the while ruining my opponent's deck.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 06:33:41 pm by polot38 »
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #121 on: February 14, 2015, 06:46:32 pm »
+1

2. River is just plain OP. Part of the thing about why moat and such aren't good drawers is that all cards have an implicit -1 Card in their effect. This card has no such drawback (essentially becoming a perpetual smithy), aside from the first time you play it in any given turn, and allows engines to fire very easily with very few of these and a lot of villages (the basic village becoming essentially a +3 cards +1 action with this in play…).

Mwahaha, now there's two of us, Asper... Are you afraid yet?
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #122 on: February 14, 2015, 06:52:41 pm »
+1

I declare there to be three
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #123 on: February 14, 2015, 08:20:06 pm »
+2

A few comments:
1. Ranger. Is the version i am reading right? +1 Card, +1 action, then get another card? Thats far better than a lab, and at 2$ cost…

Argh, no... When i mocked up the card with LastFootnotes new template, i accidentally added a +1 Card...
This is how it should look like:





2. River is just plain OP. Part of the thing about why moat and such aren't good drawers is that all cards have an implicit -1 Card in their effect. This card has no such drawback (essentially becoming a perpetual smithy), aside from the first time you play it in any given turn, and allows engines to fire very easily with very few of these and a lot of villages (the basic village becoming essentially a +3 cards +1 action with this in play…).

I admit i am having a hard time to judge River's power. Originally the card was just "+2 Cards, return this to your hand". There was some discussion as to how strong it was. pacovf argued it was a Smithy plus, and should cost $5. I argued that it was a Moat plus, and should cost $4 or $3. I decided $3 was fine, because double-openings were a horrible idea, obviously.

Then it was pointed out plain River was Moat (minus) in Village-less games, and wouldn't be bought. I considered to ignore it, but then it seemed an issue too big to ignore. LastFootnote suggested to fuse basic River and another card, Jeweler, together, to get this new version of River.

I am starting to think that, while i'm sure that "perpetual Smithy" and "Smithy plus" are misinterpretations of what the card does, this version is too close in power to Smithy, and should cost $4. Maybe it doesn't necessarily need to be - it's not "strictly" better than any $3 card, and in a limited array of situations it's worse than smithy. But i am very much in doubt, and i think that if you treat River like Smithy, playing each copy only once, it's still about on par. Smithy has more cycling, River draws a guaranteed "Copper". So it "should" cost $4. The thing is just, i'm not sure whether a $4 version of River makes sense. I would prefer a version that's easily available and where balancing how many you get is the real issue. This version isn't as easy to get anymore and balancing is less of a problem, as it's still a Copper when drawn dead.

Hmm... The more i'm thinking about this, the less i like that aspect. It just makes the card too easy to play. I considered this as a problem of Jeweler before, but it itches me more with River, which was supposed to be a "clever little card", while Jeweler was supposed to be a "strong $5 card". Shame. It seemed like a really cute fix. Even if it actually could cost $3 (which i'm not saying it can't) i don't like the fact that it loses much of the strategical challenge.

This should keep that aspect:





3. An attack/treasure? This seems far too spammable, even with the nerf you gave it. I could just buy this a lot, have a good economy, all the while ruining my opponent's deck.

Well, compare it to Mountebank: It gives +$2, has a bane and junks you. Unlike Mountebank, this is spammable. Unlike Mountebank, it gives only only one junk card, causes no victory point loss, and gives you the bane (which also doubles as an actually useable card) in hand.

Then again, a Witch variant with an action - no matter how weak its attack would be - couldn't cost $5, either. Then again, Minion is another nonterminal attack that gives +$2, and that's annoying, but balanced. I admit it doesn't scale, though.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 08:33:19 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #124 on: February 14, 2015, 08:31:10 pm »
+3

2. River is just plain OP. Part of the thing about why moat and such aren't good drawers is that all cards have an implicit -1 Card in their effect. This card has no such drawback (essentially becoming a perpetual smithy), aside from the first time you play it in any given turn, and allows engines to fire very easily with very few of these and a lot of villages (the basic village becoming essentially a +3 cards +1 action with this in play…).

Mwahaha, now there's two of us, Asper... Are you afraid yet?

Consider my jimmies thoroughly rustled.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #125 on: February 14, 2015, 10:57:44 pm »
+2

I think Obligations is maybe too similar to Torturer. Otherwise I have no problem with it.


I don't think the +1 Buy solves River's "too weak without villages" problem. But I can understand how you might think the Reaction version is too automatic. Luckily, I have another wonderful solution! What if River weren't a Kingdom card at all? What if it were a card like Madman, Mercenary, or the Prizes, which you could optionally pick up if you fulfilled certain conditions? Then it wouldn't take up a Kingdom card slot on the boards where you didn't want it.

If you go for this solution, probably River should just be [+3 Cards; Put this into your hand]. No Reaction or +1 Buy necessary. It could be +2 Cards rather than +3 Cards, but my assumption is that it'll be non-trivial to get a River, so it should be on the strong side.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 11:02:19 pm by LastFootnote »
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market squire

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #126 on: February 15, 2015, 09:33:43 am »
+1

I sent Asper the template just now, but I also mocked up River just for fun (I might test it myself eventually). So I thought why not post my version of it.



It has two exotic concepts, but it really is a dead simple card.

Why not make it an Action/ Treasure?

Quote
River (Action-Treasure) $3
+2 Cards
Return this to your hand.

When you play this as Treasure, it is worth $1.

This would be possible here because you'd always know whether you played it as Action or as Treasure.
The effect is "Spend X Actions to draw X+1 times 2 cards, +$1." Totally okay for $3 or $4. Sure it makes Villages stronger, but i don't think that's a bad idea. Village + Smithy is also like one card that says +3 Cards +1 Action. But you have to gamble whether you draw them together! River is even more of a gamble because you need only one for the draw, so you have the choice to buy few (and draw less reliable) or to buy more Rivers (and have those almost-dead doubles in hand).
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #127 on: February 15, 2015, 09:38:16 am »
0

I think Obligations is maybe too similar to Torturer. Otherwise I have no problem with it.


I don't think the +1 Buy solves River's "too weak without villages" problem. But I can understand how you might think the Reaction version is too automatic. Luckily, I have another wonderful solution! What if River weren't a Kingdom card at all? What if it were a card like Madman, Mercenary, or the Prizes, which you could optionally pick up if you fulfilled certain conditions? Then it wouldn't take up a Kingdom card slot on the boards where you didn't want it.

If you go for this solution, probably River should just be [+3 Cards; Put this into your hand]. No Reaction or +1 Buy necessary. It could be +2 Cards rather than +3 Cards, but my assumption is that it'll be non-trivial to get a River, so it should be on the strong side.

Hmm... A Bandit Camp variant would be the obvious choice.
Quote
Some Village, Action, $5
+1 Card
+2 Actions
You may gain a River.

Anyhow, i'm still preferring a kingdom card variant. Maybe i'll try the last version i posted (the one with a buy) at $2. For Village engines, the problem isn't affordability, but whether you find the right balance, anyhow. Getting a lot of Rivers isn't the problem. Getting the right amount is, i think. Games without Villages would be the ones to really profit: Alchemists, Conspirators, Lab, Stables and many other nonterminals can produce/draw nice amounts of coin without spare actions and often enough could profit from a cheap buy to finish the chain.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #128 on: February 15, 2015, 09:44:01 am »
+2

I sent Asper the template just now, but I also mocked up River just for fun (I might test it myself eventually). So I thought why not post my version of it.



It has two exotic concepts, but it really is a dead simple card.

Why not make it an Action/ Treasure?

Quote
River (Action-Treasure) $3
+2 Cards
Return this to your hand.

When you play this as Treasure, it is worth $1.

This would be possible here because you'd always know whether you played it as Action or as Treasure.
The effect is "Spend X Actions to draw X+1 times 2 cards, +$1." Totally okay for $3 or $4. Sure it makes Villages stronger, but i don't think that's a bad idea. Village + Smithy is also like one card that says +3 Cards +1 Action. But you have to gamble whether you draw them together! River is even more of a gamble because you need only one for the draw, so you have the choice to buy few (and draw less reliable) or to buy more Rivers (and have those almost-dead doubles in hand).

The Reaction effect (originally created for another terminal draw, Jeweler) is specifically to get an Action-Treasure functionality while avoiding the rules confusion and/or weird wordings this makes necessary.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #129 on: February 15, 2015, 10:07:43 am »
+1

Hmm... A Bandit Camp variant would be the obvious choice.
Quote
Some Village, Action, $5
+1 Card
+2 Actions
You may gain a River.

If you want to go that route, I think a hermit variant is better:

Quote
Lake Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card
+2 Actions

When you discard this from play, if you did not buy any cards this turn, return this to the supply and gain a River from the River pile.

This would require a lot of finetuning, of course.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #130 on: February 15, 2015, 05:41:11 pm »
+2

Hmm... A Bandit Camp variant would be the obvious choice.
Quote
Some Village, Action, $5
+1 Card
+2 Actions
You may gain a River.

If you want to go that route, I think a hermit variant is better:

Quote
Lake Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card
+2 Actions

When you discard this from play, if you did not buy any cards this turn, return this to the supply and gain a River from the River pile.

This would require a lot of finetuning, of course.

Lake Village is a cute name. How about another clause, though:



Now you even BUY River with Actions ;D
The really great aspect about this is that it solves the "no-Village" problem while keeping my beloved vanilla River the same <3
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #131 on: February 15, 2015, 08:57:11 pm »
+2

River being a non-Supply card gained with a village seems good, but "conditional get it for free" seems odd. Madman and Mercenary seem like the most comparable cards, and they require trading the original for it. Maybe an optional "when you discard this, you may return it to the Supply; if you do, gain a River"?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #132 on: February 15, 2015, 09:40:59 pm »
+1

River being a non-Supply card gained with a village seems good, but "conditional get it for free" seems odd. Madman and Mercenary seem like the most comparable cards, and they require trading the original for it. Maybe an optional "when you discard this, you may return it to the Supply; if you do, gain a River"?

The clause may not be perfect yet (or rather, it certainly isn't), but i'd prefer to not have Lakeside Village return to the supply. One thing i don't like about Hermit/Madman is that there's no noticeable connection between the cards. Urchin/Mercenary have the same theme, but they are still vastly different and don't feel like they belong in the same deck. River and Lakeside Village (or however the name will be) belong in the same deck, and support each other. So you wouldn't want to remove one for the other. When you gain Mercenary, chances are you're not missing Urchin at all - actually, removing it makes sense. You'd miss the Village if you gain River, though. Also, i don't see why you shouldn't do something only because there is no precedent.

That's not saying the idea can't have other problems.

Edit: I considered Lakeside Village to be more of a mashup between Walled Village and Bandit Camp, actually.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 09:47:14 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #133 on: February 15, 2015, 10:00:17 pm »
+1

I think the point of the village going back to the supply is more about making the combo harder to achieve than to remove a card you don't need from your deck (and also, it is cute thematically, but names can be changed later).

Your condition is cute, but doesn't seem like much of a condition at all?

Basically the question is, how hard should it be to get a river once you have the village? Especially now that the combo is always available? The village really wants to draw a card to help River draw your deck, but it shouldn't cost more than $5 because you want a lot of them, so we are looking at a $4 cost village, which really isn't much of an increase compared to the vanilla village. How hard it is to gain a River should reflect that.

Of course, I believe River to be a very strong card, so something like TheOthin's suggestion seems good to me. You are paying $4 for a mining village-feast mix that can only gain one kind of card, seems reasonable to me. However, if you think that River is still worth somewhere around $3 even if villages are guaranteed to be in the kingdom, that is going to look like too harsh a condition for you.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #134 on: February 15, 2015, 11:43:58 pm »
+2

I love ancillary cards and fancy special stuff so I'm in favour of this Lakeside Village+River combo! Although on first look I would agree with pacovf that it seems too easy to get Rivers. After all, it's a strong card that you keep (unlike Madman) and that's gonna be useful the entire game (unlike Mercenary). And just opening with a Lakeside Village would be a guaranteed River after the second reshuffle.
Returning the Village to get a River seems fine, balance-wise. You could still get it easily AND buy a new Lakeside Village before the second reshuffle and you're good to go. There are probably other reasonable ways to do this so continue looking for alternatives.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #135 on: February 16, 2015, 12:47:39 am »
+1

You could always have Lakeside Village trash another card to get the River.  It's like they're building canals or something.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #136 on: February 16, 2015, 05:44:17 am »
+3

I like the left, but with an added "otherwise." As is, if there's ever a way to increase the cost of cards in the middle of a turn, then you can play a card 5 times. And fan cards or new official cards could do that some day.

Yes, that's better. I have looked through the pages and was sure i had it there at some point, but it turns out i never had. Good catch.

Edit: Ah, no, i just assumed there wouldn't be such cards because of the rules confusion with Highway. Anyhow, it's still probably better.

I agree that making cards more expensive is unlikely for the reason you state, but making a card cheaper until sometime other than end of turn seems possible.

Well, it could also happen if you did a card that only makes some cards cheaper. There even is a precedent with Quarry.

I'm leaving for now, it's pretty late here. Anyhow, here's my latest take on Parliament. I reordered it so the $4 option comes first. Now the bonus scales up, and "otherwise, if it costs less" seems a lot less weird than "otherwise, if it costs $4" in my opinion.


Thanks for the tips and considerations :)

Point of interest (maybe for some, anyway):

The painting you've used for Parliment is a painting by Tom Roberts of the opening of the first Parliment of the commonwealth of Australia which took place on Melbourne in 1901 in the Royal Exhibition Buildings. Not far from where I live and across the road from where I work. :c)

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #137 on: February 16, 2015, 10:25:45 am »
+1

You could always have Lakeside Village trash another card to get the River.  It's like they're building canals or something.

Actually, I rescind this idea: you gain a River if you have an unused Buy that turn.  Less thematic, but probably more balanced.  Have a wording like "When you discard this from play, if you have any unused Buys, you may use one to gain a River."
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #138 on: February 16, 2015, 10:46:13 am »
+2

Hmm. You know, Black Market allows outright buying non-Supply cards. Perhaps this could access River (and only River) through that type of mechanic, even if it was relegated to the Buy phase?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #139 on: February 16, 2015, 11:44:03 am »
+1

Your condition is cute, but doesn't seem like much of a condition at all?

About names, there'll be something. Maybe "Post Office" and "Runner"? That would go a bit into the direction i imagined earlier before the card's name was set to River. But for now we got an image, and images are nice, and the name can be changed when the card itself is somehow set on.

You are right about this. I don't like the idea of trashing it, but probably i need another condition.

I thought about an Overpay: "Gain a River from the River pile per $ you overpayed" Doesn't seem that exciting to me, though. Besides, Overpay isn't exactly my favourite mechanic...

Alternatively, a restricted on-gain: "When you gain this, you may put a card from your hand on top of your deck. If you do, gain a River from the River pile." This does allow a few cute options, but you still have to spend $4 on each River you want to get (as you get only one per LV). Also, at the start of the game, this means either wasting a possible $5 turn for a Village and River, or using a $4 turn and harming your next one. On the other hand, hey, there may be some combos here, but i don't mind that.


Hmm. You know, Black Market allows outright buying non-Supply cards. Perhaps this could access River (and only River) through that type of mechanic, even if it was relegated to the Buy phase?

That's something i considered: "While this is in play, you may buy River cards from the River pile during your buy phase.". It's not bad, but i'm a bit worried that River would end up costing $3*/$2* or something like that, and that would make it look like Peddler, a supply card. If it costs $0*, on the other hand, it looks a bit strange that you'd "buy" it. I mean, it neither costs something (like BM cards) nor is it in the supply (like other buyable $0s are).

werothegreat's idea isn't bad either, though i wouldn't have it "spend" the buys. Diadem doesn't "spend" your actions, either. Sure, there is only one Diadem (edge case: Counterfeit), but you don't want to gain massive amounts of River, anyway. The only thing i don't like about the option is that it doesn't really feel different from Hermit. On some boards, it's going to be the same.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #140 on: February 16, 2015, 12:30:49 pm »
+2

The +buy makes River busted with Villages without making it stronger without villages.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #141 on: February 16, 2015, 12:34:23 pm »
+1

I really would prefer to see River as a standalone pile though, because it's a cool card. That's not mutually exclusive with making a pile that brings it into play specifically.

I think letting you trash it for 1-2$ whenever you play it would be enough to let it keep up in BM games.  It would allow you to use it early on as your terminal and switch over to high quality 5$ terminals later.

Or to make it look super elegant, "+2 cards: Put this in your hand, anywhere in your deck, or the trash pile."
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 12:38:39 pm by popsofctown »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #142 on: February 16, 2015, 03:26:46 pm »
+2

I like the unused Actions idea, but I would require more Actions and try to make it so that you can't get one River per Lakeside Village you played that turn. Perhaps an on-play ability. [+1 Card; +2 Actions; If you have at least 4 Actions (Actions, not Action cards), you may gain a River]
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #143 on: February 17, 2015, 03:02:22 pm »
0

I like the unused Actions idea, but I would require more Actions and try to make it so that you can't get one River per Lakeside Village you played that turn. Perhaps an on-play ability. [+1 Card; +2 Actions; If you have at least 4 Actions (Actions, not Action cards), you may gain a River]

I thought about something like this, though i somehow wanted to put the clause first. "If you have at least one unused action..." Of course, yours won't be nearly as confusing.

Speaking of confusion, today i wondered whether counting unused actions wasn't a bit unelegant, considering Rivers wording  tries to avoid exactly that.

Another idea i had: Simply having to choose between gaining River and the Village bonus. But that feels a bit unsatisfying.

Yet another was allowing the gain only when you played LV and allready had three cards in play. That's very similar to Conspirator, of course - except River itself doesn't count.

I'm seriously considering the topdecking restriction on gain. It harms you at the start, because you'd return an Estate or sacrifice a $5 opening. Later on, you might want to use it on an Action you couldn't play. But, you know, top-decking an action while gaining a Village is nice, problem's just that you gain even another card that spends those actions you obviously didn't have enough of. You could play it? Well, you just didn't. You might even use the effect on a River you allready played this turn. This, too, sounds better than it is, though, as you'd spend $4 and gain another River in the process.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #144 on: February 22, 2015, 11:30:02 am »
+4

This is what i'm (probably) going to try:



The question here is how good Town/Road is. It's a question that i still think i can't answer. If it isn't sufficient to beat most strategies, which i assume, i'm okay with this being an easily available "combo". Unless you want to drown in Roads, you'd need other Villages to reduce the Road/Village ratio, and well, that's a lot of Villages to buy. If you buy Town for the Village itself, you just got another terminal that you might not actually want.

I might cost it at $5 or do the requirement, but for now it's hard to judge. I'll playtest once i get a chance :)

Either way, i like the name "Town" ;)
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #145 on: February 23, 2015, 07:46:52 pm »
+1

I just playtested Town in the most pathetic imaginable way, solo with four versions of me. Anyhow, as i mentioned, i'm not a very good player, so i decided to have each player follow a distinct strategy:
A: Town/Big Money
B:Town/Engine
C:Big Money
D: Town-less engine

The board was: Poor House, Candlestick Maker, Oasis, Fortune Teller, Town, Horse Trader, Stables, Haggler, Torturer, Upgrade

I think the comparison was harmed because there were no Villages besides Town, which meant that for the Town-less player a lot of strategies were impossible, e.g. Torturer chains. Interestingly, theTown-engine had very poor buying power overall and went in last with 18 VP, while Town/BM won with 27. Big Money and the town-less "engine" both got 21, which alone should be esufficient to show that a lot of this was because of me being awful at building engines. I admit i didn't even have a plan for how either engine should look like, so i bought silly amounts of Candlestick Makers and Oasis' for both... You may laugh at me.

Anyhow, it was obvious that Road was a card you were very happy to have at the right moment - starting your hand without one but with Towns meant "Play Town... Drat! A Copper! Okay, one more chance... Noooo! Another Copper!!! Why meee?", while having a hand without Towns was basically dead (not so much for Town/BM, though).

If you ask me what this test showed, it's that i need a better player than me. I had the feeling that the cards were pretty strong, though that may be because my "engines" were awfully built.

Edited for typing errors.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 07:49:44 pm by Asper »
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #146 on: February 24, 2015, 09:09:34 am »
+4

Town/Road is an engine-y card, so I don't think 4p, with Town as the only village, is the best way to test it...

With that being said, I don't like this version of Town. The interesting part of Road was to balance how many of them you wanted in your deck. Now you don't get to choose, you get as many as you have villages, which is fairly horrible. Town is effectively a no-draw village, because each one of them (aside from the first) will have to compensate for a dead Road in your deck. And a no-draw village is very poor support for Road.

I think the gain has to be either optional or conditional.

EDIT: Thinking about it a little bit more, another option would be to keep the compulsory gain, and replace the top part of town with "+2 cards, +2 actions, discard two cards", for better synergy with road and extra combos.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 10:07:33 am by pacovf »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #147 on: February 24, 2015, 11:07:25 am »
+2

The thing about the draw two, discard two is that it's the same on-play effect as Inn, just with a different on-gain effect.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #148 on: February 24, 2015, 11:11:34 am »
+1

Indeed! But in both cases, it's the on-gain effect that is interesting. So it's sort of like saying that Cultist and Ghost Ship are the same, because they both draw two cards.

Something to note is that, if you go with the compulsory on-gain effect (which I am not convinced is the right way to go), you can make Road be the supply card, instead of Town.

Fun puzzle: when would it make a difference which of the two cards is in the supply, and which is a zero-cost extra pile?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #149 on: February 24, 2015, 11:14:23 am »
+3

I agree with pacovf. Specifically, I think it would be far better to have a conditional gain for Road. I'd like to see something like this:

Quote
Town
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you gain this, you may discard a Province. If you do, gain a Road from the Road pile.

Road
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+3 Cards. Put this into your hand. (This is not in the Supply.)

This way Road is a powerful card you really want to shoot for and you have some better control over how many you gain.

By the way, the reason I keep using "Put this into your hand" instead of "Return this to your hand" in my examples is that there's no guarantee Road was in your hand when you played it. It might have been played by Golem or Herald.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #150 on: February 24, 2015, 11:19:30 am »
+1

That's very extreme. What about leaving it at +2 Cards and just having the option of discarding any one card upon gaining Town for it?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #151 on: February 24, 2015, 11:20:55 am »
+2

That's very extreme. What about leaving it at +2 Cards and just having the option of discarding any one card upon gaining Town for it?

That's like not having an extra cost at all. Extreme can be fun.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #152 on: February 24, 2015, 11:21:49 am »
+2

I like LFN's suggestion, although it is moving the card in a different direction altogether.

One problem with that version is that by the time you can discard a province, there might not be any town left to gain, if it's the only village in the kingdom...
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #153 on: February 24, 2015, 11:22:34 am »
+1

I like LFN's suggestion, although it is moving the card in a different direction altogether.

One problem with that version is that by the time you can discard a province, there might not be any town left to gain, if it's the only village in the kingdom...

Yes, I'd thought of that. Better get that Province quickly!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #154 on: February 24, 2015, 11:24:08 am »
+2

Don't we already have two cards that let you use Provinces to get cool shit?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #155 on: February 24, 2015, 11:24:45 am »
+2

Don't we already have two cards that let you use Provinces to get cool shit?

And we have 204 cards that don't! This lets you use Provinces to get cool shit on-gain, which might be interesting.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #156 on: February 24, 2015, 11:25:17 am »
+2

Yes, I'd thought of that. Better get that Province quickly!

Mmm... that's just not going to happen in multiplayer games. Are you happy with that?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #157 on: February 24, 2015, 11:28:01 am »
+1

Yes, I'd thought of that. Better get that Province quickly!

Mmm... that's just not going to happen in multiplayer games. Are you happy with that?

Well, no. But I don't think we should necessarily assume that will happen. I mean it's quite possible that it will. But it's also possible that players will usually want to leave some in the pile so that they can try to snag a Road later. And if you're gunning for a fast Province, you don't necessarily want a lot of villages early.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #158 on: February 24, 2015, 11:33:45 am »
+1

Definitely, but if another player just bought an early province, and there's one or two Towns left, you can bet that I am buying them. On the other hand, if you avoid buying Town specifically to avoid that happening, then there might not be that many left after you get your Road, which sort of defeats the point of forcing a village to be in the same kingdom as Road in the first place.

(I am talking about multiplayer games here)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 11:34:50 am by pacovf »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #159 on: February 24, 2015, 11:38:42 am »
+3

It just strikes me as very strange to incorporate this kind of Tournament-like luck here.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #160 on: February 24, 2015, 11:40:03 am »
+2

It just strikes me as very strange to incorporate this kind of Tournament-like luck here.

There's way less luck than Tournament because you only have to collide your Province with a $4 of cash. That's not tough.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #161 on: February 24, 2015, 11:42:48 am »
+2

It's less luck-dependent than tournament because you only need to collide the Province with a $4 hand, and because all Roads are identical.

Another idea would be to make Town a 15-card pile or something. You know, just to make the whole Town-Road thing even more crazy.

PPE: ninja'd.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #162 on: February 24, 2015, 11:45:07 am »
+2

It's definitely not the same, but hitting $8 first still isn't that easy.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #163 on: February 24, 2015, 11:47:56 am »
+2

Definitely, but if another player just bought an early province, and there's one or two Towns left, you can bet that I am buying them. On the other hand, if you avoid buying Town specifically to avoid that happening, then there might not be that many left after you get your Road, which sort of defeats the point of forcing a village to be in the same kingdom as Road in the first place.

(I am talking about multiplayer games here)

You are making good points. Here are my counterpoints. First, this concept is pretty unlike anything Dominion has, so it's very hard for us to predict how it would actually play out. I'm sure that, especially in e.g. a 4-player game, Towns would sometimes run out before anybody got a Road. But how often would that really be the case? If they run out first 90% of the time, obviously that's no good. But if it only happens 10% of the time, that's fine. Sometimes there will be other villages, and if you're not getting a Road, those other villages are probably better, so players will be less likely to buy Towns early. Sometimes multiple players will be gunning for that early Province, leaving enough Towns left over. I'm just saying that with something this exotic, it bears testing before we jump to conclusions.

One solution is to have the ability be on-trash or on-gain-or-trash.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 11:49:03 am by LastFootnote »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #164 on: February 24, 2015, 11:56:42 am »
+3

If not for Diadem already having the "trade away all your excess Actions" property, I'd say an especially powerful Road available as a reward for getting Provinces and in need of a Village to be worthwhile may as well just be another Prize. It wouldn't be guaranteed to show up with Villages that way, but you could just pass it up for the other Prizes in that case.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #165 on: February 24, 2015, 11:59:31 am »
+1

If not for Diadem already having the "trade away all your excess Actions" property, I'd say an especially powerful Road available as a reward for getting Provinces and in need of a Village to be worthwhile may as well just be another Prize. It wouldn't be guaranteed to show up with Villages that way, but you could just pass it up for the other Prizes in that case.

Yes, having it as a Prize is definitely a very plausible option.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #166 on: February 24, 2015, 12:02:40 pm »
+3

Note that Diadem transforms villages into peddlers, and that the +3 card Road transforms villages into triple labs.

You know. For power level comparison.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #167 on: February 24, 2015, 12:03:39 pm »
+1

Note that Diadem transforms villages into peddlers, and that the +3 card Road transforms villages into triple labs.

You know. For power level comparison.

True, although you can draw Diadem anytime during your turn, whereas Road gets way worse the later you draw it.

EDIT: Also, Diadem is usually weak.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 12:05:50 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #168 on: February 24, 2015, 12:18:29 pm »
+3

Haha, gotcha! You were defending Diadem before you realized what you were doing.

Talking about the devil, from the Secret History of Cornucopia:

Quote from: Donald
Diadem started in the large version of Alchemy long ago, as an Action: "+$2. Return this to your hand." It was a cute combo with Villages, but useless without them. I then tried some "choose one" versions, which solved the problem of it sometimes being dead, but didn't make the actions-to-money part any better. I eventually gave up on it, and well here it is at last.

So, will we find another working version of this concept?



PPE:

Note that Diadem transforms villages into peddlers Bazaars, and that the +3 card Road transforms villages into triple labs.

You know. For power level comparison.

ftfy

Not really, though. If you use the extra action, you lose the coin.

EDIT: sorry, too late  :P
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 12:19:55 pm by pacovf »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #169 on: February 24, 2015, 12:19:35 pm »
+1

Note that Diadem transforms villages into peddlers Bazaars, and that the +3 card Road transforms villages into triple labs.

You know. For power level comparison.

ftfy

That's not quite right. With Diadem, you either get the +$1 or the +1 Action from your villages, but not both.

But neither does Road make villages triple Labs. It's more double-Labs. You can't count the Road itself in the draw. The Road just gives you a Smithy after all the conversion is done. Similarly, the Diadem is a Silver after the conversion.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 12:21:53 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #170 on: February 24, 2015, 12:26:11 pm »
+2

I don't get what you are saying. As long as you are holding a Diadem in your hand, any village can be a peddler. As long as you are holding a +3 card Road in your hand, any village can be a triple-lab.

Once you've done the conversion, Road is a smithy and Diadem is a gold, or Road is dead and Diadem is a silver, depending on how you look at it.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #171 on: February 24, 2015, 12:27:28 pm »
+2

Draw Village and Super-Road, play both, and you end up with an 8-card hand and one Action, just like if you played three Labs. Get another Village through that and play it and you end up with an 11-card hand.

Unlike other Actions, most relevantly Smithy, Road doesn't leave your hand when you play it. It does, however, ensure that whenever you're done playing Roads, you'll still have one left in your hand and likely dead, decreasing the total card gain by 1. But there are still ways of making use of that, such as cards with discarding or top-deck effects.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #172 on: February 24, 2015, 12:30:23 pm »
+4

Ah, yeah, I think I get it now. You're right. Perhaps +2 Cards is more reasonable. Although, again, you have to draw Road early.

I think the most important thing I learned from Donald while playtesting Adventures is to try the crazy-looking version first. That way, if it works, you get to have something that looks crazy. And it's better to have cool-looking cards than mediocre-looking cards.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 02:14:03 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #173 on: February 24, 2015, 12:33:10 pm »
+3

It's more that you have to draw Road before you run out of non-Road draws. If you play five Villages and draw Road on the last one, you can burn all the Actions you racked up earlier from those Villages.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #174 on: February 24, 2015, 01:04:25 pm »
+3

What about making it duchy to steer things a different way from normal and to make it easier for Roads to be gotten?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #175 on: February 24, 2015, 01:42:18 pm »
+1

Note that Diadem transforms villages into peddlers Bazaars, and that the +3 card Road transforms villages into triple labs.

You know. For power level comparison.

ftfy

That's not quite right. With Diadem, you either get the +$1 or the +1 Action from your villages, but not both.

But neither does Road make villages triple Labs. It's more double-Labs. You can't count the Road itself in the draw. The Road just gives you a Smithy after all the conversion is done. Similarly, the Diadem is a Silver after the conversion.

Yeah I realized that and deleted my post, but apparently not in time.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #176 on: February 24, 2015, 01:45:17 pm »
+2

Ah, yeah, I think I get it now. You're right. Perhaps +2 Cards is more reasonable. Although, again, you have to draw Road early.

I think the most important thing I learned from Donald while playtesting Adventures, it's to try the crazy-looking version first. That way if it works, you get to have something that looks crazy. And it's nice to have cool-looking cards than mediocre-looking cards.

Yes but the cards in Adventures ARE crazy. Especially spoilers and spoilers.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #177 on: February 24, 2015, 01:51:12 pm »
+1

Ah, yeah, I think I get it now. You're right. Perhaps +2 Cards is more reasonable. Although, again, you have to draw Road early.

I think the most important thing I learned from Donald while playtesting Adventures, it's to try the crazy-looking version first. That way if it works, you get to have something that looks crazy. And it's nice to have cool-looking cards than mediocre-looking cards.

Yes but the cards in Adventures ARE crazy. Especially spoilers and spoilers.

I think the word you're looking for is "awesome". The cards in Adventures are awesome, especially spoilers and spoilers.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #178 on: February 24, 2015, 02:20:10 pm »
+3

Especially spoilers and spoilers.

Oh, you mean Bandit Camp and Marauder? Or is it Pillage?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #179 on: February 24, 2015, 02:51:43 pm »
+2

I like the mandatory gain. It makes the card feel more dependant on the board to me. If there are other Villages, you got to balance which and how many of them you gain. Or maybe you just want Town itself, for the action - but how to deal with the appendage? Would you buy one to push your Gardens or Vineyard? Town isn't strictly better than Village and worse for some use cases, so i'm actually considering whether i should try it at $3 some time (though the name isn't very plausible at that point - i guess you can claim Towns are Villages that have Roads leading to them...). It's funny how we once said that Road should cost $4 on its own, and now it seems weak even if you get a Village for free (at least without other Villages). I'm not sure where this will lead.

Making the gain of Road conditional takes a lot of the decision out, i think. Sure, even if something is conditional, you don't always want to do it - but you have to make the decision easier if you want to make sure fulfilling the condition feels like it "pays off". So that's what gets us to the +3 cards variant. My problem: The question isn't anymore about how to handle/balance Roads, but about how to reach that condition. And really, how different are conditions in Dominion? It's always "reach a good deck fast" or "be set back and return to a good deck fast". That's, like, something we try to do every game, isn't it? Well, slogs aside.

One condition i mentioned earlier is to return a card from your hand to your deck. If i do a condition, i think that's the one i'll take. Province discarding just doesn't thrill me. It was on Tournament. And hey, it's on Sultan, too. Actually, i'm currently leaning towards re-adding the third +action part back on Nouveau Riche, and that would be three cards in one set. Besides i like my cards to be multiplayer-friendly, and i don't think this kind of thing is. Towns will run out, it won't feel like it pays, Stan will draw it dead once with his Torturer and tell us how it lost him the game for weeks. It really feels like on-gain Tournament to me, and i don't want another one. Oh, and Explorer reveals them, so i guess i just don't feel the "do stuff with Province" design space is very spacey anymore.

Duchy is a different thing, but again, there's allready Nouveau Riche. While i'm not doing a "set", i wanted to make the cards as easy and different as possible, and this feels a bit like two ideas glued together.

Sorry for being so ignorant of your ideas :-[
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #180 on: February 24, 2015, 03:21:06 pm »
+3

It's cool, dude. It's your set and you should do what you want. If you don't use the "discard Province on gain", that just means I feel better about doing it in Enterprise. Hmm, "When you gain this, discard any number of Victory cards and take that many Trade tokens."

I like the mandatory gain. It makes the card feel more dependant on the board to me. If there are other Villages, you got to balance which and how many of them you gain. Or maybe you just want Town itself, for the action - but how to deal with the appendage? Would you buy one to push your Gardens or Vineyard? Town isn't strictly better than Village and worse for some use cases, so i'm actually considering whether i should try it at $3 some time (though the name isn't very plausible at that point - i guess you can claim Towns are Villages that have Roads leading to them...). It's funny how we once said that Road should cost $4 on its own, and now it seems weak even if you get a Village for free (at least without other Villages). I'm not sure where this will lead.

The thing is, I think you want fewer Roads than villages, especially now that additional Roads you draw in a turn are basically Confusions. So Road seems weak by itself (without villages available), and not all that strong with an equal number of villages (current version with no other villages available). I think its strength is when you have a couple of Roads and a bunch of villages.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #181 on: February 24, 2015, 04:27:32 pm »
+1

What about something like "When you buy this, gain a Town or a Road", and then bump it up to $5 if necessary?  I don't like having the Roads forced on you, because you probably end up with more than you want.  Giving you the option to balance it out with more villages makes it easier to get the ideal ratio of actions to roads.  Though I think you would have to be careful with the wording, because you end up gaining the Town you just bought from the on-buy before you gain it from having bought it, so you only end up with one Town when you're clearly intended to get two.

Another option would be to just make it +3 Actions instead of +2 Actions (and probably bump the price up).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #182 on: February 24, 2015, 04:39:46 pm »
+1

Another option would be to just make it +3 Actions instead of +2 Actions (and probably bump the price up).

This sounds promising.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #183 on: February 24, 2015, 04:48:06 pm »
+3

I like the mandatory gain. It makes the card feel more dependant on the board to me. If there are other Villages, you got to balance which and how many of them you gain. Or maybe you just want Town itself, for the action - but how to deal with the appendage? Would you buy one to push your Gardens or Vineyard? Town isn't strictly better than Village and worse for some use cases, so i'm actually considering whether i should try it at $3 some time (though the name isn't very plausible at that point - i guess you can claim Towns are Villages that have Roads leading to them...). It's funny how we once said that Road should cost $4 on its own, and now it seems weak even if you get a Village for free (at least without other Villages). I'm not sure where this will lead.

You're getting this backwards, I think. As LFN said, you don't want many Roads, probably only 2 (+/-1) and tons of villages. By having the gain be compulsory, you get yourself in a tough spot: too few Towns and then Road can't shine, or too many and then you are drowning in stop cards . If there are other villages, then you just get a couple of town/roads and piledrive the other village. Otherwise, town seems like a no-no, since you are effectively cursing yourself with each town you buy.

What I am trying to say is, if you make the gain compulsory, you are not solving the problem of "Road is dead if there are no villages in the kingdom".

That's why I suggest to change town if you want to make the gain compulsory. Adding some sifting into it seems like a natural fit, but there are other possibilities, probably. Also, think about which card you want to be in the supply, because it will illustrate what you think the focus of the card couple should be.

You can also make a relatively simple condition, like "if you have 2 unused Actions", to justify using the +2 card Road. Not something you have to particularly work towards, but that still represents an extra cost to get the "free" card.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 06:32:36 pm by pacovf »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #184 on: February 24, 2015, 05:28:05 pm »
+2

I basically agree with everybody else who said that plain "When you gain Town, gain a Road" is not a good idea, and there have been good reasons named for why it isn't. I would like a conditional on-gain or on-buy decision to gain a Road so it's not too easy to get it. You don't want many Roads anyway. However, I don't particularly like LFN's suggestion to discard a Province. Maybe a Duchy or Victory card in general?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #185 on: February 24, 2015, 05:34:22 pm »
+1

I basically agree with everybody else who said that plain "When you gain Town, gain a Road" is not a good idea, and there have been good reasons named for why it isn't. I would like a conditional on-gain or on-buy decision to gain a Road so it's not too easy to get it. You don't want many Roads anyway. However, I don't particularly like LFN's suggestion to discard a Province. Maybe a Duchy or Victory card in general?

Victory card in general is sort of a non-cost, since you usually start with 3 Estates. I like Duchy.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #186 on: February 24, 2015, 07:15:12 pm »
0

I thought about this, and i guess you guys are right. I imagined Town to be a Village+, which is why i costed it at $4 before. Problem is, mandatory gain doesn't make Town a Village+,  actually it's worse than default Village on many occasions. As i said, i thought about costing it at $3, but that doesn't solve the main problem. I thought having to "deal" with Roads was a good idea. There are one or two cards that do a thing like this, like Rats, but i can't even claim i actually enjoy those cards, really. So probably that just was a bad idea.

Partly i imagined the mandatory gain as a nerf. There are better ways to achieve that, but part of what i liked was that mandatory gaining was a very simple one.

So... What about just "you may"? Would un-nerfed Town be too good? You are paying $4 for Road (more than i planned originally) but get a free Village. Or you pay $4... for a Village. If this is balanced, i'd like it, i think.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 07:16:46 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #187 on: February 24, 2015, 08:18:12 pm »
+2

In whatever way Town enables you to gain a Road, as long as it says "+1 Card. +2 Actions. [Something else.]" it has to cost either more or less than ordinary Village. So it cannot cost $3. DXV wrote somewhere something like "if Village and Village+ (in this case Town) were in the same Kingdom and both cost $3, that would just seem wrong."
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #188 on: February 24, 2015, 08:28:02 pm »
+1

So... What about just "you may"? Would un-nerfed Town be too good? You are paying $4 for Road (more than i planned originally) but get a free Village. Or you pay $4... for a Village. If this is balanced, i'd like it, i think.

Seems like a good place to start.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #189 on: February 24, 2015, 10:26:50 pm »
+2

Fun puzzle: when would it make a difference which of the two cards is in the supply, and which is a zero-cost extra pile?

That's easy... when you use a trash-for-benefit on one of them. But that could be eliminated by giving the non-supply card a cost of $4*.

Second edge case; Band of Misfits can be one of them, but not the other.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #190 on: February 24, 2015, 11:50:43 pm »
+4

I actually agree with you (Asper) that there are some interesting things that result from the version of Town with the forced Road gain, and it wouldn't be a bad card like that.  It's just that it could be a lot better.  Road is already such a cool card that I feel like it's sort of a waste to use it on the version that gives you too many of them, because you don't really get to take advantage of what makes Road fun.  I feel like Town/Road should be as straightforward (not sure if that's the right word...) as possible, and then if you want to make another card that has that kind of village/terminal balancing act, that should be its own thing.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #191 on: February 25, 2015, 04:57:23 pm »
+2

In whatever way Town enables you to gain a Road, as long as it says "+1 Card. +2 Actions. [Something else.]" it has to cost either more or less than ordinary Village. So it cannot cost $3. DXV wrote somewhere something like "if Village and Village+ (in this case Town) were in the same Kingdom and both cost $3, that would just seem wrong."

While i'm not really looking for $3 Town anymore, i don't think that's true. The existing Village alternatives at $3 (Shanty Town,Fishing Village) don't say +1Card, +2Actions, but that doesn't mean such a card wouldn't work. You'd just have to choose an effect that makes the Para-Village equal in power to normal Village. Forced effects are a way to achieve this.

Anyhow, here's voluntary Town with an updated Road featuring LastFootnote's wording:





Also, here's some small idea i had a while ago, added as a setup clause to Ranger:



I'm aware it doesn't really "fit" on Ranger, but then again i don't think it really "fits" on any specific card - well, maybe Noble Brigand or Nomad Camp... Anyhow, Ranger is nonterminal and costs $2, so it's nice to pair with a $5 - in a way that probably fits, i guess. I'm not exactly sure whether it's a good thing to make the decision for a 2/5 opening easier, but hey, at least you do have a choice. Equal chances and stuff, and who knows, somebody may pick a 3/4. In that way it's not "equal starting hands". I picked "put in any order" over choosing just your five card starting hand because it took me fewer words, mostly.

Meh, now that i wrote this, i'm not that convinced it's a good idea... It doesn't really make Ranger itself more interesting, either.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #192 on: February 25, 2015, 05:47:57 pm »
+1

In whatever way Town enables you to gain a Road, as long as it says "+1 Card. +2 Actions. [Something else.]" it has to cost either more or less than ordinary Village. So it cannot cost $3. DXV wrote somewhere something like "if Village and Village+ (in this case Town) were in the same Kingdom and both cost $3, that would just seem wrong."

While i'm not really looking for $3 Town anymore, i don't think that's true. The existing Village alternatives at $3 (Shanty Town,Fishing Village) don't say +1Card, +2Actions, but that doesn't mean such a card wouldn't work. You'd just have to choose an effect that makes the Para-Village equal in power to normal Village. Forced effects are a way to achieve this.

You missed my point. I was specifically talking about cards that say "+1 Card. +2 Actions. [Something else]." Fishing Village and Shanty Town don't say that so the "rule" doesn't apply here. If you want Town to cost $3, it cannot have plain "+1 Card. +2 Actions." as a vanilla bonus because with the voluntary (or obligatory, or conditional) Road gain it's different from village (not necessarily better or worse, that's not the point) and it includes everything that Village has. Thus it has to have a different cost. Otherwise you have to exclude something on Town that Village has to balance it out if it's supposed to cost $3.

As for Ranger, I think there are better, more clever ways of alternating opening buys. This is just way too simple. Ranger could allow for a one-time mulligan and reshuffle your deck if you don't like your starting hand, for example.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 05:52:00 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #193 on: February 25, 2015, 05:55:07 pm »
+3

Consider a card that said "+1 Card, +2 Actions, Gain a Copper, putting it into your hand." It does what Village does, plus something else. But does it outclass Village? Absolutely not. Either one could be preferred depending on the situation.

A Village with a required on-gain is the same way. Maybe you want the card, maybe you don't. Some cards are pretty much always good to gain for free, but Road is not one of those cards. Once you have a couple, you'd prefer gaining regular Villages over ones that force a Road on you. This does not apply to cards where the on-gain is optional, like the current Town.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #194 on: February 25, 2015, 09:45:00 pm »
0

Consider a card that said "+1 Card, +2 Actions, Gain a Copper, putting it into your hand." It does what Village does, plus something else. But does it outclass Village? Absolutely not. Either one could be preferred depending on the situation.

A Village with a required on-gain is the same way. Maybe you want the card, maybe you don't. Some cards are pretty much always good to gain for free, but Road is not one of those cards. Once you have a couple, you'd prefer gaining regular Villages over ones that force a Road on you. This does not apply to cards where the on-gain is optional, like the current Town.

Thanks, that was what i was trying to say.

Donald wrote why he is against cards that are (what we have come to call) "strictly better" than others. He never said anything about cards that are "strictly more complex". Mandatory Town is more complex than Village, but not better.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #195 on: February 25, 2015, 09:51:22 pm »
+3

But the problem is one of perception in the first place. And Mandatory Town looks better than Village to the kind of people that complain about this sort of thing.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #196 on: February 25, 2015, 10:14:11 pm »
+1

But the problem is one of perception in the first place. And Mandatory Town looks better than Village to the kind of people that complain about this sort of thing.

Can't really argue about that. I wonder whether there are people that say Rats was better than cantrip trashing because it gains copies of itself.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #197 on: February 25, 2015, 10:19:22 pm »
+2

It's certainly strange and awkward when the effect of being forced to gain a card that's "supposed" to be desirable turns out to be a noteworthy disadvantage.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #198 on: February 25, 2015, 10:35:34 pm »
+1

It's certainly strange and awkward when the effect of being forced to gain a card that's "supposed" to be desirable turns out to be a noteworthy disadvantage.

I don't even disagree, sorry if it sounded like that. Rats IS one of the cards that make Dark Ages the weirdest expansion in my book. Mandatory Town is off the table for a lot of good reasons that were pointed out, and i still do like it better as a Village+, which also means it should be "better" than Village. That also fits the name better. I like the name.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #199 on: February 26, 2015, 05:31:59 pm »
+1

I'm glad it's off the table. I' starting to chum up with the version of Town that gives you the option of gaining a Road on-gain. It's still often enough going to be a non-trivial decision, while the concept itself is simple which I like. The situation will be a whole lot different with another Village on the board but any terminal draw will look more attractive with a Village on board.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #200 on: February 27, 2015, 03:13:52 pm »
0



Whoa, that seems weak. Strong with Silk Road, of course, but really weak with no other alt-VP cards. I don't think the combos are common enough to be worth it, and even when they're there, dang you're just slaughtering your deck by buying this.

I thought a bit about Meadow and whether i could save it, because i kind of like the effect, and i realized i might have given up a bit too early.

What i forgot to point out is: In a game without any alt-VP, the game ends when either the Meadow or the Province pile is empty (because it empties Duchies and Estates at the same time). So on a 2-player board, you'd just have to get to $6 eight times before your opponent manages to get to $8 seven times. It's a bit similar to IGG in how it can end the game, but unlike IGG i'm pretty sure Meadow will choke too easily if there's nothing to support it. That support doesn't have to be Alt-VP, though - strong sifters and cards like Vault that create $6 relatively reliably also work. Actually, as it (currently) works on-gain, you don't even need to do that - Remodeling Meadows into Meadows also works. It might be a problem that your opponent can buy a Duchy or two to weaken your Meadow's central VP source, but then again this would make him green himself. Either way, i think there's room for Meadow rush strategies.

The fact that some don't like the "tripple gaining" is a different thing. I personally don't mind it and think it's okay to have on your board once and a while, but if it turns out too annoying (or automatic, even) i would change it to buy.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #201 on: March 01, 2015, 11:24:03 pm »
+1



Whoa, that seems weak. Strong with Silk Road, of course, but really weak with no other alt-VP cards. I don't think the combos are common enough to be worth it, and even when they're there, dang you're just slaughtering your deck by buying this.

I thought a bit about Meadow and whether i could save it, because i kind of like the effect, and i realized i might have given up a bit too early.

What i forgot to point out is: In a game without any alt-VP, the game ends when either the Meadow or the Province pile is empty (because it empties Duchies and Estates at the same time). So on a 2-player board, you'd just have to get to $6 eight times before your opponent manages to get to $8 seven times. It's a bit similar to IGG in how it can end the game, but unlike IGG i'm pretty sure Meadow will choke too easily if there's nothing to support it. That support doesn't have to be Alt-VP, though - strong sifters and cards like Vault that create $6 relatively reliably also work. Actually, as it (currently) works on-gain, you don't even need to do that - Remodeling Meadows into Meadows also works. It might be a problem that your opponent can buy a Duchy or two to weaken your Meadow's central VP source, but then again this would make him green himself. Either way, i think there's room for Meadow rush strategies.

The fact that some don't like the "tripple gaining" is a different thing. I personally don't mind it and think it's okay to have on your board once and a while, but if it turns out too annoying (or automatic, even) i would change it to buy.

Here's an idea to buff it/make it more interesting: make meadow a treasure/victory with this as the treasure part:
worth $0
while this card is in play, meadows cost $3 more

so if you bought 1, you could then buy meadow into province-duchy. You should also make the on-gain effect optional.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #202 on: March 02, 2015, 03:12:54 pm »
0


Whoa, that seems weak. Strong with Silk Road, of course, but really weak with no other alt-VP cards. I don't think the combos are common enough to be worth it, and even when they're there, dang you're just slaughtering your deck by buying this.

I thought a bit about Meadow and whether i could save it, because i kind of like the effect, and i realized i might have given up a bit too early.

What i forgot to point out is: In a game without any alt-VP, the game ends when either the Meadow or the Province pile is empty (because it empties Duchies and Estates at the same time). So on a 2-player board, you'd just have to get to $6 eight times before your opponent manages to get to $8 seven times. It's a bit similar to IGG in how it can end the game, but unlike IGG i'm pretty sure Meadow will choke too easily if there's nothing to support it. That support doesn't have to be Alt-VP, though - strong sifters and cards like Vault that create $6 relatively reliably also work. Actually, as it (currently) works on-gain, you don't even need to do that - Remodeling Meadows into Meadows also works. It might be a problem that your opponent can buy a Duchy or two to weaken your Meadow's central VP source, but then again this would make him green himself. Either way, i think there's room for Meadow rush strategies.

The fact that some don't like the "tripple gaining" is a different thing. I personally don't mind it and think it's okay to have on your board once and a while, but if it turns out too annoying (or automatic, even) i would change it to buy.

Here's an idea to buff it/make it more interesting: make meadow a treasure/victory with this as the treasure part:
worth $0
while this card is in play, meadows cost $3 more

so if you bought 1, you could then buy meadow into province-duchy. You should also make the on-gain effect optional.

I don't know about cards that increase costs. I always remember some rules issues that were cited with cost reducers and cards costing $0, and i feel it would mean introducing new rules. It's probably not impossible, but unless there comes an official card that does cost increasing, i'd rather not do it.
Of course you could do it as an overpay "Gain two other VP cards that cost less than the total you paid", but i'm really not an overpay friend. The machanic feels overly complex to me, even though Meadow would be one of the more simple use cases.

About buffs, these are the options i had in mind:



None of them really makes the card more interesting, though. Probably the crazy second option is more interesting, but i still feel it's a bit lacking. Maybe i just should let it go, after all :-/
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 03:14:02 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #203 on: March 02, 2015, 03:31:15 pm »
+2

I would really like to reply more positively but there's just absolutely no way I would appreciate this concept. I'm sorry :(

To me, it just reads "gain a bunch of green" or "gain a Province split in 3 pieces." It's uninteresting and it's too many gains that just come flying in without any twist or condition to it. And trashing a Province from the Supply is terrible per se; if it happens additionally to all that gaining, Meadow just turns into a Kingdom-flattener that destroys the regular course of the game and ends it at a frantic pace with a foreseeable outcome, especially in multiplayer games.
On top of that, it destroys your deck. If you go for Meadows while your opponent goes for Provinces, you will likely choke horribly on green cards while your opponent might not be able to score enough points any more. Towards the end, it will be painfully slow for both of you and your opponent will pray for you to end the game finally.

Wow, I wrote into a frenzy. I guess I'd very strongly advise you against this idea.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #204 on: March 02, 2015, 03:57:53 pm »
+2

On a positive note, I have recently conducted a non-human-interactive playtest involving your Sultan and Politician. Nobles and Great Hall were also on the board so Sultan should have been really good. But it was just okay which, frankly, surprised me but also relieved me. I was relieved because I thought Sultan would be too good. I like the card and I hope it works out. The real question for me is how does it compare with Explorer? Just the fact it's non-terminal makes me feel like it should cost at least $4, even though my only playtest showed Sultan isn't amazingly good. I mean, Explorer always gives you a Silver but without Villages, Explorer isn't any better at gaining Golds than Sultan. It's even worse because Sultan draws an additional card and you can still play another action after Sultan. That doesn't feel right.
Sultan has a cute concept but being a cantrip might make it too good, even if it's just in comparison with Explorer which isn't a good card but still costs $5. And Sultan is for $3? Yeah it might whiff but it's at least a cantrip then. I hope you can see my point.

Every time I played Politician I subconsciously chose the same option for all 3 other players. Eventually I realised I could have chosen different options for each one. But in 95% of cases, you won't because most player interaction cards are symmetrical in Dominion so there's no point in bothering thinking about who should get what. You always focus on your own deck anyway. So I think you could make Politician simpler by making one decision for each other player. It's still a fun card. That +$3 is really enticing at a cost of only $3 so I expect people to go for it and see how good of a job Politician does for them.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 04:04:07 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #205 on: March 02, 2015, 04:48:57 pm »
0

It's okay. There hasn't been any positive feedback to Meadow, so i guess a clear "It's no good" statement helps me make a cut and let it go. So i'll let it go.

About Sultan, i like to compare it to Oasis: It's worse for Estates, Shelters, Curses and unwanted actions, but better if you have no junk (not even Copper) or with Duchy, Province and alt-VP. Unlike Oasis it only pseudo-sifts, and as it fills your deck with cards it reduces the chance to collide itself with VPs which makes up for the fact it gives a staying advantage. Explorer is terribly weak, even compared to Squire. Unlike Sultan, it at least doesn't need a Duchy normally to gain Silvers.

I'm really grateful and flattered you tested my cards. Really,thank you  :) The fact that Sultan doesn't work awesomely with Great Hall is a bit of an unpleasant surprise, but then again discarding GH negates its main bonus over Estate, being a cantrip. Even though i designed with Harem in mind, i guess "useless" Vp are a better target. Well, Harem gaining at least INCREASES your chance of a collision, so that's that. Anyhow, i guess it being okay is something i can live with. Not every $3 can be Scheme. You can always pick up an early Duchy, though i guess you'd need good sifting to get more out of it than that costs.

About Politician, you raise a very interesting point. Making it one choice might or might not make the card less political. Actually, i can imagine a case where Alice says "Why do you let us gain Silvers? Bob's playing Big Money and you're just helping him! My Torturer chains are the only way to stop his Treasure madness!" (added drama). Long story short, i guess it doesn't harm the intend of the card as much as it improves it.

Edit: I just realized a choice for all makes Politician rather similar to Governor on paper. Though the biggest difference is that for Governor you pick the choice you want, while for Politician you choose what your opponents get the least of... Still, 2 of 3 bonuses are the same. That's rather unsatisfying. Considering i still think that one choice for all might be better, i wonder whether doing Politician is worth it at all  :(
A shame, i was pretty fond of this one...
Edit2: Seems i missed out Nobles also was on the Sultan board... Now that worries me a bit.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 05:38:28 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #206 on: March 02, 2015, 05:59:43 pm »
+2

FWIW, I like meadow, and I prefer the option of making it give 2 VP.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #207 on: March 02, 2015, 06:14:14 pm »
+1

About Sultan, i like to compare it to Oasis: It's worse for Estates, Shelters, Curses and unwanted actions, but better if you have no junk (not even Copper) or with Duchy, Province and alt-VP. Unlike Oasis it only pseudo-sifts, and as it fills your deck with cards it reduces the chance to collide itself with VPs which makes up for the fact it gives a staying advantage. Explorer is terribly weak, even compared to Squire. Unlike Sultan, it at least doesn't need a Duchy normally to gain Silvers.

I'm really grateful and flattered you tested my cards. Really,thank you  :) The fact that Sultan doesn't work awesomely with Great Hall is a bit of an unpleasant surprise, but then again discarding GH negates its main bonus over Estate, being a cantrip. Even though i designed with Harem in mind, i guess "useless" Vp are a better target. Well, Harem gaining at least INCREASES your chance of a collision, so that's that. Anyhow, i guess it being okay is something i can live with. Not every $3 can be Scheme. You can always pick up an early Duchy, though i guess you'd need good sifting to get more out of it than that costs.

Edit2: Seems i missed out Nobles also was on the Sultan board... Now that worries me a bit.

I mean, whenever I drew Sultan and Nobles or GH together, I would think "would I rather play or discard the Nobles/GH?" For Nobles the choice was almost always play until I drew my deck. I also played most of the Great Halls because I got them later in the game and didn't want any more Silvers. Sultan wasn't a good reason to buy a lot of GHs (which are mediocre at best, even on this board).

Still, although Explorer is very weak, it costs $5 and it's (a little) worse at gaining Golds than Sultan. Since gaining Gold is the only reason one should buy any of the two cards (usually), the huge cost gap between them kinda bothers me. You should check on that, play games with both cards in them, and nerf Sultan if necessary. IMO it doesn't need to be a cantrip. The comparison with Oasis is only superficially applicable because Oasis is often a good opening card but Sultan isn't. Sultan serves a completely different purpose than Oasis so I would rather not compare them.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #208 on: March 02, 2015, 08:27:39 pm »
0

FWIW, I like meadow, and I prefer the option of making it give 2 VP.

That's good to hear :)
Hm... I guess i'll try it and see whether Co0kieL0rd is right.

About Sultan, i like to compare it to Oasis: It's worse for Estates, Shelters, Curses and unwanted actions, but better if you have no junk (not even Copper) or with Duchy, Province and alt-VP. Unlike Oasis it only pseudo-sifts, and as it fills your deck with cards it reduces the chance to collide itself with VPs which makes up for the fact it gives a staying advantage. Explorer is terribly weak, even compared to Squire. Unlike Sultan, it at least doesn't need a Duchy normally to gain Silvers.

I'm really grateful and flattered you tested my cards. Really,thank you  :) The fact that Sultan doesn't work awesomely with Great Hall is a bit of an unpleasant surprise, but then again discarding GH negates its main bonus over Estate, being a cantrip. Even though i designed with Harem in mind, i guess "useless" Vp are a better target. Well, Harem gaining at least INCREASES your chance of a collision, so that's that. Anyhow, i guess it being okay is something i can live with. Not every $3 can be Scheme. You can always pick up an early Duchy, though i guess you'd need good sifting to get more out of it than that costs.

Edit2: Seems i missed out Nobles also was on the Sultan board... Now that worries me a bit.

I mean, whenever I drew Sultan and Nobles or GH together, I would think "would I rather play or discard the Nobles/GH?" For Nobles the choice was almost always play until I drew my deck. I also played most of the Great Halls because I got them later in the game and didn't want any more Silvers. Sultan wasn't a good reason to buy a lot of GHs (which are mediocre at best, even on this board).

Still, although Explorer is very weak, it costs $5 and it's (a little) worse at gaining Golds than Sultan. Since gaining Gold is the only reason one should buy any of the two cards (usually), the huge cost gap between them kinda bothers me. You should check on that, play games with both cards in them, and nerf Sultan if necessary. IMO it doesn't need to be a cantrip. The comparison with Oasis is only superficially applicable because Oasis is often a good opening card but Sultan isn't. Sultan serves a completely different purpose than Oasis so I would rather not compare them.

I think neither Sultan nor Explorer should be considered Gold gainers. Sultan can gain Coppers if you're desperate,  but Silver gaining needs some investment, and Sultan itself doesn't help you to get there. Explorer can give you a Silver, no questions asked. Whenever you have no VP card, Sultan does nothing. Explorer is worse at gaining Golds, but it's better at getting you to a point where you can actually buy Provinces - in that respect, you can open Explorer.

All that doesn't change that Sultan does look good compared to Explorer. You are the one who playtested it (thanks again), but your playtests didn't show it to be OP even on an alt-Vp board. If it turns out to be too good after all, i'm not against changing the cost to $4, of course.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 08:48:53 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #209 on: April 03, 2015, 07:55:45 pm »
0

So, for now i removed Politician from my list of cards (it's hardly a set), because its bonuses are too similar to Governor. Also, given recent... Events... it's seems a good thing Road is a non-supply pile. Hooray! No neverending Roads! So Town/Road is what it's at and it's going to stay.

Enjoy your Adventures Time.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #210 on: April 25, 2015, 06:23:42 am »
+1

Little update:

Now that an official Ranger card exists, i had to change my card's name. Also, as it turned out no Adventures card uses the mechanic of a Reserve that you can call back only on buying a VP card (though Wine Merchant goes in a similar overall direction), i'll use this to make "Hunter" more interesting:

Hunter, Action - Reserve, $4
+1 Action
Reveal the top three cards of your deck. Discard one and put the rest in your hand. Put this on your Tavern Mat.
----
When you buy a Victory card, you may discard this from your Tavern Mat.

No mockup for now, as i don't have one for Reserves.

Also, Meadow will stay for now (with 2 VP), i killed Politician because of the similarity to Governor, and i renamed (and brought back) Dungeon as "Maze". I think it being a VP card that pushes itself makes it interesting enough, even though it gives no on-play bonus. I suppose not everybody liked Distant Lands, either.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #211 on: April 25, 2015, 10:08:27 am »
+1

Little update:

Now that an official Ranger card exists, i had to change my card's name. Also, as it turned out no Adventures card uses the mechanic of a Reserve that you can call back only on buying a VP card (though Wine Merchant goes in a similar overall direction), i'll use this to make "Hunter" more interesting:

Hunter, Action - Reserve, $4
+1 Action
Reveal the top three cards of your deck. Discard one and put the rest in your hand. Put this on your Tavern Mat.
----
When you buy a Victory card, you may discard this from your Tavern Mat.

The top part of Hunter is good but the bottom condition is essentially anti-synergistic and makes the whole card significantly worse. Of course, the top part needs a substantial nerf to justify the cost of $4 but such a narrow condition makes Hunter nearly useless in any strategy that doesn't focus on alt-VP. I could be totally wrong but that's my first impression, sorry.

No mockup for now, as i don't have one for Reserves.

Also, Meadow will stay for now (with 2 VP), i killed Politician because of the similarity to Governor, and i renamed (and brought back) Dungeon as "Maze". I think it being a VP card that pushes itself makes it interesting enough, even though it gives no on-play bonus. I suppose not everybody liked Distant Lands, either.

Who does not like Distant Lands? Maze seems fine but could be more interesting, design-wise. The art is gorgeous.

I just noticed in the first post you write your name is Troy McAsper. Is that your real name? It sounds too cool not to be a pseudonym^^
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #212 on: April 25, 2015, 10:38:54 am »
0

Little update:

Now that an official Ranger card exists, i had to change my card's name. Also, as it turned out no Adventures card uses the mechanic of a Reserve that you can call back only on buying a VP card (though Wine Merchant goes in a similar overall direction), i'll use this to make "Hunter" more interesting:

Hunter, Action - Reserve, $4
+1 Action
Reveal the top three cards of your deck. Discard one and put the rest in your hand. Put this on your Tavern Mat.
----
When you buy a Victory card, you may discard this from your Tavern Mat.

The top part of Hunter is good but the bottom condition is essentially anti-synergistic and makes the whole card significantly worse. Of course, the top part needs a substantial nerf to justify the cost of $4 but such a narrow condition makes Hunter nearly useless in any strategy that doesn't focus on alt-VP. I could be totally wrong but that's my first impression, sorry.

Well, the original card, Ranger, did the same with two cards and costed $2 (without being a Reserve). It was on par with Vagrant but a bit boring. This now is better than Laboratory (most of the time) and costs less. I liked the VP clause (i originally posted it as a prediction for Adventures), and thought it fitted well on a sifter, and Ranger was a sifter but boring, and that's the story. I don't know whether you noticed, but you can of course discard any number of Hunters to the same VP buy. So, one Duchy per shuffle, and you get super-Labs that help with green for $4. Honestly, i thought that was pretty synergetic.

Edit: Given how new the card is, it might still be off on the power level.

No mockup for now, as i don't have one for Reserves.

Also, Meadow will stay for now (with 2 VP), i killed Politician because of the similarity to Governor, and i renamed (and brought back) Dungeon as "Maze". I think it being a VP card that pushes itself makes it interesting enough, even though it gives no on-play bonus. I suppose not everybody liked Distant Lands, either.

Who does not like Distant Lands? Maze seems fine but could be more interesting, design-wise. The art is gorgeous.

I just noticed in the first post you write your name is Troy McAsper. Is that your real name? It sounds too cool not to be a pseudonym^^

I don't know. But i'm sure somebody doesn't like it. I like it, but i'm a bit biased in favour of alt-VP, i think. Hmm... Now that Distant Lands exists, we do have an official VP card that gets better by playing it... Maybe this makes Maze less unique :-\

Sadly, that's not really my name. It was just a shout-out to Troy McLure from "The Simpsons", who would always introduce himself with a list of movies/advertisements/whatever that you might remember him from.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 10:40:57 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #213 on: April 25, 2015, 10:51:03 am »
+2

Yeah; I think the new Hunter is much cooler than the old Ranger. Definitely a keeper.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #214 on: April 25, 2015, 12:37:21 pm »
0

Thanks :)

I changed the wording a tiny bit. Don't know why i didn't do it like that from the start:

Quote
Hunter, Action - Reserve, $4
+1 Action
Reveal the top three cards of your deck. Put two in your hand. Discard the other one. Put this on your Tavern Mat.
----
When you buy a Victory card, you may discard this from your Tavern Mat.

Only difference is that the first version failed (partially) for the last 1 or 2 cards in your deck, and the new one doesn't.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #215 on: May 13, 2015, 12:05:48 pm »
+4

Woohoo! Since i now have post/respect equilibrium, i can finally stop posting memes and cheap jokes. HURRA!

Here are slightly reworked versions of Necromancer and Zombie from Werothegreat's "Flavorful X or Z card" thread. As you can see, i decided for the +2 cards version for now to keep Necromancer from comparing too favourably to Rogue (though it might be too weak now) and gave Zombie an easier to do bane*:



*The last version had Necromancer draw 3 cards and gain only action cards, while Zombie allowed opponents to topdeck two cards with the attack taking place either way.

Edit: Spelling mistakes.
Also i just noticed that this might be considered a bit similar to Town/Road, being a supply/non-supply pair of Village/Draw. Hm...
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 12:22:20 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #216 on: May 13, 2015, 12:18:20 pm »
+4

I have to say that I'm really excited by the concept of having a bunch of cards start in the trash; it's very flavorful. I also like how Necromancer and Zombie interact as sort of two halves of Rogue. I don't think Zombie needs to be a Village, and in fact I'm leery of it being non-terminal at all.

To make it more different from Rogue, maybe Necromancer could always gain a Zombie from the trash. And then the Zombies kill each other off. But of course, unlike other trashing attacks, you can always get them back. Hmm...I wonder if it's too oppressive.

Anyway, the concept is very cool and I'm optimistic that some implementation will work out. Great idea!

I wonder if Zombie needs "(This is not in the Supply)"? Shelters don't have it because they're never in a pile on the table, and I think that applies to Zombies, too.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #217 on: May 13, 2015, 12:29:24 pm »
+1

*cough* Magic the Gathering *cough*

I like the combo of Necromancer and Zombie a lot! Two cool interactive cards that make sense together but aren't that easy to play well, which is a good thing. And they aren't too complicated, either. They instantly jumped to a high position in my mental ranking of your cards only judging by first impression on their effect and design.

Now that Adventures brings so much additional fantasy stuff into Dominion (yeah, Witch and friends, I know) these seem more fitting than before. I still loathe Vampire, just because I think the design is poor. Obviously you can come up with much more interesting ideas, so I would be glad to see that card reworked. Would a Vampire not rather leech from your opponents instead of giving them points? But what do I know about Vampires.

You're probably right about Hunter! I guess I just couldn't grasp its power level, and would have played the card very badly. But I'm also bad with Storeroom although I know it's a good card, so who am I to judge? Just a humble, semi-talented player. I've even been more passionate about fan cards than original card, recently (until Adventures came out).

But enough about me. Just wanted to say, I like Necromancer and Zombie, to end this post on a positive note.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #218 on: May 13, 2015, 12:46:43 pm »
0

I have to say that I'm really excited by the concept of having a bunch of cards start in the trash; it's very flavorful. I also like how Necromancer and Zombie interact as sort of two halves of Rogue. I don't think Zombie needs to be a Village, and in fact I'm leery of it being non-terminal at all.

To make it more different from Rogue, maybe Necromancer could always gain a Zombie from the trash. And then the Zombies kill each other off. But of course, unlike other trashing attacks, you can always get them back. Hmm...I wonder if it's too oppressive.

Anyway, the concept is very cool and I'm optimistic that some implementation will work out. Great idea!

I wonder if Zombie needs "(This is not in the Supply)"? Shelters don't have it because they're never in a pile on the table, and I think that applies to Zombies, too.

Thanks :D

Wow, i didn't even think about Shelters as a precedent. Will fix this.

I think you have a good point about Zombie being a Village. I mainly wanted the cards to not stand in each other's way, and Draw/Village was just an obvious positive interaction to make sure you'd want both of them. I know nonterminal attacks are a bad thing normally, and it might be too much of a no-brainer. Another problem i noticed just now is that Zombie/Necromancer would be my second supply/non-supply Village/Draw pair after Town/Road. And that's far from original...

I'll think about some other options.

*cough* Magic the Gathering *cough*

I like the combo of Necromancer and Zombie a lot! Two cool interactive cards that make sense together but aren't that easy to play well, which is a good thing. And they aren't too complicated, either. They instantly jumped to a high position in my mental ranking of your cards only judging by first impression on their effect and design.

Now that Adventures brings so much additional fantasy stuff into Dominion (yeah, Witch and friends, I know) these seem more fitting than before. I still loathe Vampire, just because I think the design is poor. Obviously you can come up with much more interesting ideas, so I would be glad to see that card reworked. Would a Vampire not rather leech from your opponents instead of giving them points? But what do I know about Vampires.

You're probably right about Hunter! I guess I just couldn't grasp its power level, and would have played the card very badly. But I'm also bad with Storeroom although I know it's a good card, so who am I to judge? Just a humble, semi-talented player. I've even been more passionate about fan cards than original card, recently (until Adventures came out).

But enough about me. Just wanted to say, I like Necromancer and Zombie, to end this post on a positive note.

Never played Magic. Had it explained to me, though, and i'd probably like it.

Thanks to you too :D

I guess you are right. Vampire is a bit anti-thematic, thinking of it. And yes, i know cards like that are generally considered poor design. Sometimes i do cards just to see whether i can implement the idea without the power being off or rules breaking, similarly to why i did Jeweler (which implements Action/Treasure). Vampire is the same about that Curse/Action concept, and actually started out as an Action-Curse. It's an old card, and i'm mostly trying to fix it because it's very popular in my gaming group. I know it doesn't live up to some of the other cards.

Edit: Also i myself am a mediocre player at best.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 12:55:40 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #219 on: May 13, 2015, 01:34:02 pm »
+2

I think you have a good point about Zombie being a Village. I mainly wanted the cards to not stand in each other's way, and Draw/Village was just an obvious positive interaction to make sure you'd want both of them. I know nonterminal attacks are a bad thing normally, and it might be too much of a no-brainer. Another problem i noticed just now is that Zombie/Necromancer would be my second supply/non-supply Village/Draw pair after Town/Road. And that's far from original...

I'll think about some other options.

I was thinking that Zombie could be terminal and Necromancer could be non-terminal. Then I was thinking that Necromancer could put the gained Zombie into your hand. Then I realized that's a lot like Barracks. But you know, still an option. It could just be +1 Action, +$2, gain a [Zombie/Attack/card costing from $3 to $6] from the trash.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 01:36:07 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #220 on: May 13, 2015, 04:49:54 pm »
0

I'm having a hard time finding better bonuses for the cards from the spot. It's less hard for Zombie, which could just give +$2. That way, it becomes a bad idea to load up on Zombies too much, and i think Necromancer would have to give +2 Actions itself so you want Zombies at all. Maybe +$1, too? Problem is, this is even more similar to Town. In a way, i think it's more elegant the other way around, and i'd rather try to find a way of making the attack stack less (or add a bane that doesn't run out). Either way, i sadly don't really have time to think about it right now, but i'll definitely try to improve it.

About the "this is not in the supply": I'm not sure whether it might make some people think of Zombie as a regular kingdom card that's just missing a randomizer if i keep it out. Hmm... I guess having it be both a setup and kingdom card would cause some confusing cases. So probably i could leave it on.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #221 on: May 15, 2015, 11:49:20 pm »
+1

I was thinking that Zombie could be terminal and Necromancer could be non-terminal. Then I was thinking that Necromancer could put the gained Zombie into your hand. Then I realized that's a lot like Barracks. But you know, still an option. It could just be +1 Action, +$2, gain a [Zombie/Attack/card costing from $3 to $6] from the trash.

I like the Barracks version. It's different enough because, unlike Conscripts, Zombies don't disappear after they attack so you want to balance how many you get (especially if they are terminal), and because Necromancer can eventually gain and play the trashed cards on the same turn. Plus, the attack itself is different, Barracks curses while Necromancer trashes, etc.

Now the question would be to find a good terminal version of Zombies.

I am not terribly convinced by the discard option in Zombie, though.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #222 on: May 16, 2015, 09:23:11 am »
+1

I was thinking that Zombie could be terminal and Necromancer could be non-terminal. Then I was thinking that Necromancer could put the gained Zombie into your hand. Then I realized that's a lot like Barracks. But you know, still an option. It could just be +1 Action, +$2, gain a [Zombie/Attack/card costing from $3 to $6] from the trash.

I like the Barracks version. It's different enough because, unlike Conscripts, Zombies don't disappear after they attack so you want to balance how many you get (especially if they are terminal), and because Necromancer can eventually gain and play the trashed cards on the same turn. Plus, the attack itself is different, Barracks curses while Necromancer trashes, etc.

Now the question would be to find a good terminal version of Zombies.

I am not terribly convinced by the discard option in Zombie, though.

The discard option was added so Zombie isn't just Dame Molly for less money and without a trash clause. I know it's never in the supply, but i didn't like the idea of Necromancer always being able to gain a card that was worth $5. Now that i'm thinking about a different Vanilla bonuses either way, it should be possible to balance the card without the discard option.

I'm not really a fan of gaining and playing the card. I could imagine gaining a card and allowing you to play a Zombie a lá Cultist. But that probably makes the synergy too obvious and discourages gaining the cards your Zombies trashed, which i wouldn't like as much, either.

How about:

Necromancer
+2 Actions
You may gain a card costing from $3 to $6 from the trash.

Zombie
+2$
Each other player reveals the top two cards of his deck, trashes one costing from $3 to $6 and discards the rest. If a player trashed a card, he may gain a card costing at least $2 less.


Makes Necromancer rather similar to University, but probably not in a problematic way. At least Zombie doesn't draw, so it's not as Town-ish (i hope). Still not sure this is the solution. I don't know what Necromancer is supposed to cost in this version. I doubt it's worth $5 on its own...
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #223 on: May 16, 2015, 12:13:23 pm »
+1

I think giving +2 Actions to Necromancer is good already, but here are some other ideas anyway. I'm just brainstorming, so this may be very far away from what your idea is, but what about:

Quote
Necromancer:
Play this as if it were an Action card from the Trash that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play.

Setup: Put the Zombie card in the Trash.

Can be tweaked, of course. It's kinda cheating in that it's hiding complexity behind a second card, but oh well. If this would be too strong, you could make it return the chosen card to its Supply Pile too.



Other ideas:

If you don't like (conditional) gain to hand, make Necromancer gain cards to the top of your deck (maybe only if it's an Attack card, to make it more different from Graverobber?).

Make Zombie:

Quote
Zombie
Trash a card from your hand.
Each other player reveals the top two cards of his deck, trashes one costing from $3 to $6 and discards the rest.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2015, 12:17:03 pm by pacovf »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #224 on: May 16, 2015, 12:37:09 pm »
+1

Not that I care about flavor personally, but for flavor, I think zombie definitely should be non-terminal, because zombies are the type of things that you should be able to play a bunch of at once.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #225 on: May 16, 2015, 01:34:37 pm »
+1

That's easily fixed: add an "s" to the name of the card. :P
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #226 on: May 16, 2015, 02:12:52 pm »
+2

Not that I care about flavor personally, but for flavor, I think zombie definitely should be non-terminal, because zombies are the type of things that you should be able to play a bunch of at once.

Necromancer: Action, $5
+1 Action. Gain a Zombie from the trash. Play any number of Zombies from your hand.

Zombie: Action–Attack, $4
+1 Card. [Attack effect here]
« Last Edit: May 16, 2015, 02:14:00 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #227 on: May 16, 2015, 04:21:54 pm »
+3

Zombie
+2$
Each other player reveals the top two cards of his deck, trashes one costing from $3 to $6 and discards the rest. If a player trashed a card, he may gain a card costing at least $2 less.

I think you mean "at most $2 less", otherwise I'm gaining Province every time!  I'm not sure it needs that though, I think Saboteur only has it because it can trash Provinces (without support).

Have you considered having the non-terminal Necromancer gain the card to your hand?  Then you can play Zombies right away, but you can also do fun stuff with the other cards that have been trashed.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #228 on: May 17, 2015, 05:53:45 am »
+1

Zombie
+2$
Each other player reveals the top two cards of his deck, trashes one costing from $3 to $6 and discards the rest. If a player trashed a card, he may gain a card costing at least $2 less.

I think you mean "at most $2 less", otherwise I'm gaining Province every time!  I'm not sure it needs that though, I think Saboteur only has it because it can trash Provinces (without support).

Have you considered having the non-terminal Necromancer gain the card to your hand?  Then you can play Zombies right away, but you can also do fun stuff with the other cards that have been trashed.

You're right about the phrasing, as it should be in accordance with Saboteur's. But Asper said he wouldn't like for one to be ble to gain and play the card, which I assume meant, play it right away. I would agree as that would make Necromancer a little too simple for my taste.

I like Pacovf's idea of Necromancer being played as if it were a card from the trash, and Zombie trashing a card from your hand. Tha't actually a pretty interesting and flavourful BoM variant. It only has the problem tht Grave Robber and Rogue could easily ruin Necromancer's day and distort the game balance by gaining the only copy of Zombie that exists. This could be prevented by either putting a clause on Zombie such as, "When you gain this, trash it", which would be kind of awkward. Or just giving Necromancer two options;

Quote
Necromancer:
You may play this as if it were an Action card from the Trash that you choose. If you do, this is that card until it leaves play. Otherwise, (trash a card from your hand and)
each other player reveals the top two cards of his deck, trashes one costing from $3 to $6 and discards the rest.

Looks really weird, though. I don't know, I'm also just brainstorming. Have fun, evaluating all the options ;)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #229 on: May 17, 2015, 08:49:03 am »
+2

Just making zombie cost $0* will stop it from being able to be gained from the trash, if you wanted to go that way.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #230 on: May 17, 2015, 02:43:58 pm »
+2

I'll try to describe what i'm trying to achieve with the card duo, because i'm not sure i know myself:

  • Necromancer is supposed to make use of cards in thre trash
  • Zombie is supposed to start in the trash, useable by Necromancer
  • Setup aside, Zombie should behave like any other card in the trash. It should be gainable by Graverobber and not be referenced on Necromancer besides in the set-up clause
  • Zombie is supposed to add cards to the trash for Necromancer to use.
  • I'd like them to be different from Town/Road in that i don't want a supply Village and a non-supply Draw. Everything else is fine.
  • The cards should be simple.


I think giving +2 Actions to Necromancer is good already, but here are some other ideas anyway. I'm just brainstorming, so this may be very far away from what your idea is, but what about:

Quote
Necromancer:
Play this as if it were an Action card from the Trash that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play.

Setup: Put the Zombie card in the Trash.

This is an interesting idea, but it's very far from my original concept. I think it makes having 10 Zombie cards seem silly, considering how few other cards in Dominion could remove them from the trash. So maybe have just one costing $0. But, you know, this basically makes Zombie a "choose one" on Necromancer, where #1 is Zombie's ability and #2 looking at the trash. It kind of makes putting Zombie in the trash moot.

Also this version removes the deckbuilding aspect - instead of gaining an army of Zombies (and their victims) over time, you just expand your Necromancer's ability list. It plays very differently. If you want to do a card like this, i'd rather go with a personalized mat where trashed cards go, and a single card type that chooses between a trashing attack and impersonating a card on the mat:

Necromancererer
Choose one: Play a card from your graveyard mat; Or each other player reveals the top two cards from his deck, chooses one costing from $3 to $6 and discards the rest. Put all chosen cards on your graveyard mat.


Not that I care about flavor personally, but for flavor, I think zombie definitely should be non-terminal, because zombies are the type of things that you should be able to play a bunch of at once.

Necromancer: Action, $5
+1 Action. Gain a Zombie from the trash. Play any number of Zombies from your hand.

Zombie: Action–Attack, $4
+1 Card. [Attack effect here]

I didn't really think about it when i first suggested the card, but i guess what makes it actually reasonable to use the trash in my original concept is this: Necromancer gains cards from a shared pile, Zombies start in that pile and put cards from other player's decks there for Necromancer to gain. You can do this without using the trash - but it's far less trouble using it.

With this version, using the trash becomes pretty unnecessary: Zombies behave just like any other non-supply pile (except for Rogue and Graverobber), and the cards they put in the trash are ignored by Necromancer. If i assume you forgot to put that part there, it still treats Zombie differently - i'm not sure i like that.

I had an idea for a version that could play a Zombie, though:

Necromancerer
(possible vanilla bonus)
(You may) gain a card costing from $3 to $6 from the trash. If it is an action card, you may play a copy of it from your hand.
----
Setup: Put the Zombie cards in the trash.

Zombie
+2$
Each other player reveals the top two cards of his deck, trashes one costing from $3 to $6 and discards the rest. If a player trashed a card, he may gain a card costing at least $2 less.

I think you mean "at most $2 less", otherwise I'm gaining Province every time!  I'm not sure it needs that though, I think Saboteur only has it because it can trash Provinces (without support).

Have you considered having the non-terminal Necromancer gain the card to your hand?  Then you can play Zombies right away, but you can also do fun stuff with the other cards that have been trashed.

I figured it would work this way, because you can translate "at least 2 less" as "less by at least 2", but i see how it's misleading. As "at most" is the wording on Saboteur, that's the way to go, obviously. Thanks for pointing this out :)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 07:04:32 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #231 on: May 18, 2015, 03:31:27 pm »
+2

Based on your excellent comments and ideas from the above post, how about something like this?

Quote
Necromancer: Action, $5
Play a card from your Graveyard mat.

Your Graveyard mat starts with a Zombie on it.

Zombie: Action–Attack, $0*
+$1. Return this to your Graveyard mat. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure or Action card costing at least $3, and discards the rest. Put one of the trashed cards onto your Graveyard mat.

EDIT: Well as you say, this is still pretty far from your original concept. Hmm...

Quote
Necromancer: Action, $5
Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash and play it.

Setup: Put the Zombie cards in the trash.

Zombie: Action–Attack, $4
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 04:15:48 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #232 on: May 19, 2015, 06:20:30 am »
+2

Based on your excellent comments and ideas from the above post, how about something like this?

Quote
Necromancer: Action, $5
Play a card from your Graveyard mat.

Your Graveyard mat starts with a Zombie on it.

Zombie: Action–Attack, $0*
+$1. Return this to your Graveyard mat. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure or Action card costing at least $3, and discards the rest. Put one of the trashed cards onto your Graveyard mat.

EDIT: Well as you say, this is still pretty far from your original concept. Hmm...

Quote
Necromancer: Action, $5
Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash and play it.

Setup: Put the Zombie cards in the trash.

Zombie: Action–Attack, $4
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.

This isn't bad at all... I'm not sure which variant i like more. The second is so very simple on paper, but allows for a whole lot of options. I just wonder whether it might be too many. It seems balanced, either way, with Necromancer behaving similar to Dame Natalie at the start, possibly becoming Explorer (gain a Silver) or even a limited but more flexible Band of Misfits of sorts. I like it. Thanks for that idea :)

Edit: Here are the mockups:



I decided to keep the "not in the supply" on Zombie just to make sure nobody would take it for a kingdom card. On their own i think they'd be a bit boring. Also i dropped their price to 3$ (even though it doesn't matter), because i doubt a card like that would be worth $4 (might also not be worth $3, but whatever). I wouldn't want people to misjudge Zombie's power just because they looked at the price.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 06:35:12 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #233 on: May 19, 2015, 01:45:15 pm »
+1

My only problem with this latest version is the terminal thing. You have a terminal action that gains you more terminal actions. Unless you have lots of Villages, or your opponent is trashing lots of non-terminal actions, then you don't want to play this card too many times, because each time you do you just get another terminal. You don't get to play your army of zombies that you've built. Since the only way to get a Zombie is to play the Necromancer, I'm thinking that Zombie might not be too strong if it had +1 action.

And although you probably don't want to make it too much like Knights, I sort of feel like it would make sense if it interacted somehow if a Zombie hits another Zombie.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #234 on: May 19, 2015, 01:58:24 pm »
+1

My only problem with this latest version is the terminal thing. You have a terminal action that gains you more terminal actions. Unless you have lots of Villages, or your opponent is trashing lots of non-terminal actions, then you don't want to play this card too many times, because each time you do you just get another terminal. You don't get to play your army of zombies that you've built. Since the only way to get a Zombie is to play the Necromancer, I'm thinking that Zombie might not be too strong if it had +1 action.

I think it's worth testing as it is. In retrospect, probably Zombie should have some vanilla bonus like +2 Cards, but I think the ability to easily play lots of Zombies would just be too brutal.

And although you probably don't want to make it too much like Knights, I sort of feel like it would make sense if it interacted somehow if a Zombie hits another Zombie.

Well a Zombie "kills off" another Zombie it hits, like any other trashing attack. More importantly, Zombies can kill off Necromancers. I guess Zombies could be one-shots (with a bonus like +1 Card, +1 Action. Or I guess they could do a Knights-like thing and only trash themselves on any successful attack.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #235 on: May 19, 2015, 02:10:44 pm »
+1

I also think you should try the terminal versions of Necromancer and Zombie. This way, players are discouraged from getting too many Necromancers, which is good IMO. Zombie is that kind of attack that you really don't want to be hit by too often. But it could do with a vanilla bonus (+$2 I think is fine).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #236 on: May 19, 2015, 05:02:19 pm »
+2

I think i'll give the latest version a shot, though i can imagine one action on Zombie might be an improvement. Then again, what's wrong about a card that wants Villages in the kingdom? There are plenty. Not sure i want the self-trashing clause, though.

Either way, it's gonna take a while. Gotta playtest my own game first.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #237 on: May 24, 2015, 12:01:30 am »
+1

In responce to the other comments, here's my suggestion:

Quote
Zombie
Cost $4*. Action - Attack
+1 Action. +$1.
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest. If any cards are trashed, trash this.
(This is not in the supply.)
It can have the thematic muti-zombies in one turn thing, but that shouldn't happen very often when they trash themselves on a successful attack. (Added the +$1 to make up for the self-trashing.)

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #238 on: May 24, 2015, 02:03:57 am »
+1

I don't really like Zombie being a one-shot.

I am also partial to (my own idea of) giving Zombie a compulsory "Trash a card from your hand" (maybe with +1 Action). It fits both as a bonus and as a check on the number of Zombies that you want to get.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #239 on: May 25, 2015, 09:24:04 am »
0

I think i really like the version LastFootnote suggested. They are so very, very little text and still clever solutions to my main problems (Necromancer being much better than Rogue, Zombies being better than Knights), while staying true to the original concept. There'd have to be big issues to get me away from this solution - which i wouldn't know for quite a while, cause i don't playtest (Dominion fan cards) currently.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #240 on: May 25, 2015, 06:49:54 pm »
+4

Mockup for the new version of Hunter, which was named Ranger before and is now a Reserve. Created using LastFootnote's awesome template.
It's so much more text than i figured the effect would take...

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #241 on: May 25, 2015, 07:50:53 pm »
+1

• Usually Dominion cards use numerals for cardinal numbers greater than one.
• I think Hunter would be more compelling and interesting if it searched 4 cards. This would also save text.

Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck.
Put 2 into your hand; discard the rest.
Put this on your Tavern mat.

EDIT: I really like the card in general. It feels different enough from Wine Merchant to be worth doing.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 10:47:38 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #242 on: May 25, 2015, 09:16:13 pm »
+1

• Usually Dominion cards use numerals for Cardinal numbers greater than one.
• I think Hunter would be more compelling and interesting if it searched 4 cards. This would also save text.

Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck.
Put 2 into your hand; discard the rest.
Put this on your Tavern mat.

EDIT: I really like the card in general. It feels different enough from Wine Merchant to be worth doing.

Actually the "call to return" (edit: by VP buy) effect was an Adventures prediction i made before Wine Merchant was revealed. When it turned out no official card used VP cards as a limiter, i basically salvaged it to make Ranger more interesting.

Are you sure 4 cards isn't a bit much? It's allready a super-Lab for $4 as long as you get a single VP card per reshuffle. Then again, the "super" part is needed to deal with those VP cards in the first place - but minus that it's still a Lab for $4. It will eat up a few of your buys, which will give you some VP, so i guess it's worse than a normal Lab most of the time, but then again, it's a $4.

Edit: Of course, the price isn't what the card's about. If 4 seems more interesting but too good for $4, i could still try it at $5.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 09:27:00 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #243 on: May 27, 2015, 06:31:08 am »
0

I just realized, i don't have a Cornucopia card, yet. I used to have one, but it was rubbish. This one might be better:



Not sure whether $3 is the appropriate cost. It might be a better Smithy very often. I was just hesistant to cost a card that could turn out as Ruined Market at $4, so i'm going with Donalds "cost lower when in doubt" reasoning for now.


Another Adventures prediction i did was a card that rewards you for guessing which cards our opponents are going to play. Just as i wanted to post the Duration implementation of this, it occured to me that an Event might be the better way to go:

Prophecy, Event, $6
Put one of your Prophecy tokens on an Action card pile in the supply. When another player plays a card, you get +1 Card per Prophecy token in your color on the pile the card is from.

Edit: Probably the name's not very fitting, though, as at the point where you can afford $6 you'll likely have a good idea of what your opponent is having in his deck. So it's less about prediction. Also i have no clue whether $6 is appropriate.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 06:58:13 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #244 on: May 27, 2015, 09:55:00 am »
+1

I assume Blacksmith has you reveal cards until you reveal a duplicate of a card that you already revealed. Is there an example of an original card that uses the same wording? Otherwise I would suggest you clarify this in the card text, maybe like this, "until you reveal two duplicates".
As for Blacksmith's effect I'd say it's a better sifter than Smithy although pretty random, like Harvest. In thin-deck engines, it's worse but the +buy may or may not be significant. So, hard to say if it should cost $4 or $3. Try it at $3 first.

For Prophecy the most obvious comparison is Pathfinding which is ridiculously strong and rightfully costs $8. Normally, this would justify a cost of $6 for Prophecy, since your opponent controls how many cards you draw but when the token is on a key card, it's still very powerful. With that said, I think having unlimited Prophecy tokens might be broken. Have you tested the event at all, yet? If not, I'd suggest testing it with only one token per colour.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #245 on: May 27, 2015, 10:36:02 am »
0

Actually, i tend to playtest very, very little. So no, Prophecy was just a shot in the blue, made up while writing. The idea to just have one Prophecy token (or at least only allow one per pile) seems good, though.

Edit: And yes, Blacksmith talks about revealed cards. Maybe it should be "two duplicates"? My english fails here...
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #246 on: May 27, 2015, 10:59:03 am »
+4

Actually, i tend to playtest very, very little. So no, Prophecy was just a shot in the blue, made up while writing. The idea to just have one Prophecy token (or at least only allow one per pile) seems good, though.

Edit: And yes, Blacksmith talks about revealed cards. Maybe it should be "two duplicates"? My english fails here...

Blacksmith should probably say, "Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal two with the same name."
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #247 on: May 27, 2015, 11:58:47 am »
+2

Actually, i tend to playtest very, very little. So no, Prophecy was just a shot in the blue, made up while writing. The idea to just have one Prophecy token (or at least only allow one per pile) seems good, though.

Edit: And yes, Blacksmith talks about revealed cards. Maybe it should be "two duplicates"? My english fails here...

Blacksmith should probably say, "Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal two with the same name."

^This.

At first I thought Blacksmith had you put the 2 duplicate cards in your hand; now I see that it has you put any 2 you want in your hand. That sounds crazy strong. In a Menagerie style deck; this will let you often find the 2 best cards in your deck, as well as provide massive cycling. Early on it's usually a Woodcutter, but it just gets stronger and stronger as the game goes. I think it could cost $5.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #248 on: May 27, 2015, 12:23:08 pm »
0

Actually, i tend to playtest very, very little. So no, Prophecy was just a shot in the blue, made up while writing. The idea to just have one Prophecy token (or at least only allow one per pile) seems good, though.

Edit: And yes, Blacksmith talks about revealed cards. Maybe it should be "two duplicates"? My english fails here...

Blacksmith should probably say, "Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal two with the same name."

^This.

At first I thought Blacksmith had you put the 2 duplicate cards in your hand; now I see that it has you put any 2 you want in your hand. That sounds crazy strong. In a Menagerie style deck; this will let you often find the 2 best cards in your deck, as well as provide massive cycling. Early on it's usually a Woodcutter, but it just gets stronger and stronger as the game goes. I think it could cost $5.


You have a point and i was about to say you're right, but i'm not sure. I think it could work at $4, maybe. After all, Blacksmith still draws only two cards and getting such a deck isn't trivial. What's more, unlike Menagerie or Scrying Pool, the card's a terminal, which means you have to get Villages, and this in turn means you'll buy duplicates of at least one type of card (unless there are plenty of Villages). In a way, you need to find the right amount of Villages for a Blacksmith deck.

Still no doubt that it is rather strong. If i increase the price to $4 and also remove the buy, we basically get a Smithy that draws less but better cards:



I might still be underestimating it, though.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #249 on: May 27, 2015, 12:46:31 pm »
+2

I think a good comparison is Embassy: net +2 cards with substantial sifting. Embassy costs $5 and has an on-gain bonus to your opponents; but on the other hand its sifting is a lot more flexible and doesn't depend on a particular deck setup.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #250 on: May 30, 2015, 07:42:27 am »
0

I think a good comparison is Embassy: net +2 cards with substantial sifting. Embassy costs $5 and has an on-gain bonus to your opponents; but on the other hand its sifting is a lot more flexible and doesn't depend on a particular deck setup.

Hmm... The $4/$5 gap is pretty huge... But unlike Smithy and Embassy, Blacksmith is also (depending on your deck) unreliable. Which, unlike Managerie, becomes important in that it is terminal. Two unreliable terminals come to my mind, and those are Harvest and Tribute, usually considered rather bad cards. Maybe Blacksmith for $4 isn't overly strong after all. It certainly is better than Smithy very often, but takes strategy, a bit of luck, and draws less on paper. I think i'm okay with its price point for now.

Edit:
Also, Prophecy with only one token:

Prophecy, Event, $6
Put your Prophecy token on an Action card pile in the supply. When another player plays a card from a pile with your Prophecy token on it, you get +1 Card.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 07:45:29 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #251 on: June 03, 2015, 11:20:02 am »
+4

mail-mi's fan card Invaders is an attack of which you always have one less in your deck than you gained, because one is always in play. Trying to find a wording with less tracking issues, i pondered about a way to implement this using the Tavern Mat, until LastFootnote pointed out that you could simply check whether there allready was a copy set aside/on your Tavern Mat on the card itself and act accordingly (setting it aside/on your Mat if there wasn't).

This in turn made me feel just reducing the number of available cards by one was a bit simple and not worth using the Mat, so i tried thinking of a card that used it meaningfully. This got me to Barkeeper, an idea that i feel is different enough from mail-mi's card to be comfortable about posting here:



It's not a Reserve because it does not always put itself on theTavern Mat, which Reserves apparently do. Also you can't call it, so i felt it would really just confuse people. I put the option to put it on your Mat first (before rewarding you for cards on the mat), so players would feel encouraged to use it from time to time. The name's mostly because, hey, what's a Tavern without a Barkeeper?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #252 on: June 03, 2015, 11:31:38 am »
+1

I like the card; simple and unique. A few nitpicks:

It should be the Reserve type. There was a card during development that optionally put itself on the Tavern mat, just like Barkeeper. It was a Reserve card.

The "+1 Card" in the text shouldn't be bold. None of the published cards have bold text in the middle of non-bold text and it looks really weird.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #253 on: June 03, 2015, 11:35:31 am »
+2

I would be tempted to simplify Bartender further.

Barkeeper: Action–Reserve, $3
+1 Buy. You may put this on your Tavern mat. +2 Cards per Barkeeper on your Tavern mat.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #254 on: June 03, 2015, 01:54:28 pm »
+5

I like the card; simple and unique. A few nitpicks:

It should be the Reserve type. There was a card during development that optionally put itself on the Tavern mat, just like Barkeeper. It was a Reserve card.


I'm still a little annoyed by this. Every other type in Dominion either has actual rules associated with it, or has other cards that refer to the type. (Except maybe Reactions; it's not clear that Moat couldn't behave exactly the same within the rules if it didn't have the reaction type). The Reserve type doesn't do anything. And it's not even consistent on what it really means. It doesn't mean that it can be called (Wine Merchant, Distant Lands). It doesn't mean that it does requires the Tavern Mat (Miser). It doesn't mean that it can be put on the Tavern Mat (Copper because of Miser).

Now I do like the idea of having a card that references the Reserve type. Of course it would need to be a Reserve itself.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #255 on: June 03, 2015, 02:03:20 pm »
+3

I'm still a little annoyed by this. Every other type in Dominion either has actual rules associated with it, or has other cards that refer to the type. (Except maybe Reactions; it's not clear that Moat couldn't behave exactly the same within the rules if it didn't have the reaction type). The Reserve type doesn't do anything. And it's not even consistent on what it really means. It doesn't mean that it can be called (Wine Merchant, Distant Lands). It doesn't mean that it does requires the Tavern Mat (Miser). It doesn't mean that it can be put on the Tavern Mat (Copper because of Miser).

I hear you and I empathize.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #256 on: June 03, 2015, 02:27:35 pm »
+1

I just realized why i'm always tempted to put vanilla bonuses in the middle of a text in bold: The german cards do that. Actually, making them not bold looks weird to me, but obviously that's how it should be.

Which makes me curious how Duration Attacks or Caravan Guard will be solved in the German Adventures: Duration effects were always below a dividing line in german. So will german Adventures be the first Dominion to introduce two dividing lines? I'm a bit surprised Rio Grande Games didn't rectify this when they re-issued Seaside.

Either way, a question about the name: Is Barkeeper something different than the image communicates? You used the name "Bartender", and i wasn't sure how i should call the card. Options were Barkeeper, Innkeeper, Publician and Bartender. I really wasn't sure which fit best, which is probably another problem of not being a native english speaker. The subtleties between those evade me (escape me? slip me?).

Edit 2:
I'll change it to be a Reserve, if you think i should. I'm not entirely sure i like your suggestion (or at least not sure i like it more than the original). +2 Cards seems to make splitting more important and makes the decision to put it on the Mat a bit trivial (for the first few). Also it looks like it should be cheaper that way, making it still a bit more similar to Fool's Gold (given the split allready matters). Also i'd just like to have one more $3, even though my cards hardly form a "set" either way. But i'll think about it.

Edit: "Bartender" Mockup.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 02:45:50 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #257 on: June 03, 2015, 02:43:34 pm »
+1

Whoops, I meant to say "Barkeeper" each time, but a "Bartender" slipped in. "Barkeeper" isn't a word that gets much use in modern day American English. I couldn't really say if or when it was used much in the past. I think "Barkeep" (without the "-er") sounds more natural while maintaining a medieval/fantasy feel. "Bartender" is the modern word that I believe is ubiquitous in the U.S. now. I would go with one of those.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #258 on: June 03, 2015, 02:46:29 pm »
+1

Yeah, it's very possible that your version is better than mine. It rubs me the wrong way a little bit that you draw 2 cards first, do something else, and then maybe draw more cards. But that's such a minor thing and I bet it feels natural to play it.

My version does scale more, but I think that would make it more exciting if it worked out. But maybe it would just be too crazy.

Now I'm pondering a version that's just like yours except it gives +$1 per Bartender on your Tavern mat instead of +1 Card. Hmm...
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #259 on: June 03, 2015, 02:53:49 pm »
+1

Yeah, it's very possible that your version is better than mine. It rubs me the wrong way a little bit that you draw 2 cards first, do something else, and then maybe draw more cards. But that's such a minor thing and I bet it feels natural to play it.

My version does scale more, but I think that would make it more exciting if it worked out. But maybe it would just be too crazy.

Now I'm pondering a version that's just like yours except it gives +$1 per Bartender on your Tavern mat instead of +1 Card. Hmm...

Originally it looked like this:

Bartender, $3
+2 Cards
+1 Buy
+1 Card per Bartender on your Tavern Mat. You may put this on your Tavern Mat.

I figured that it would seem more attractive to put it on the Mat if you got an immediate bonus, like with Mining Village. Later it occured to me that this introduces another problem: You decide to remove a card from your deck, and if you're unlucky you draw junk with that additional card. Which is especially bad if you remove your last Bartender to end the game and fail (or something like that). I can see why +$ is an attractive alternative, or why you might want to put it on the Mat last. Probably this isn't the perfect solution.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 10:20:58 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #260 on: June 04, 2015, 09:52:10 am »
+1

I like the name "Barkeep" best. I like the concept and find the artwork hilarious, just like Wine Merchant. Not sure whether it needs to be a Reserve card but it feels kinda natural this way, also I like the Reserve card colour pattern. I prefer the version that lets you put it on the mat first before receiving the bonus, and the bonus being minor first and stronger later (so either +1 Card or +$1). Both seem reasonable to me but obviously would play very differently. Maybe try both and see which one is more fun.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #261 on: June 04, 2015, 10:16:33 am »
+1

I agree that the ability to put the Barkeep on your Tavern mat before getting the bonus seems better.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #262 on: June 04, 2015, 11:07:52 am »
+1

Allright, so it's Barkeep and putting it on the Mat first. I liked that better either way, it was just having to take a chance that i didn't like.

The coin variant solves this nicely, though i'm still struggeling to accept it's probably the best solution. Coins are just such a standard fix, and surely they are for a reason, but they seem a bit boring. Also i guess technically every terminal draw is taking a chance (though usually you can't lose, unless you have to decide between two terminals). Either way, the coin variant avoids something negative that doesn't need to be, so maybe i should just go with coins. I'd still like the standard bonus to be the way it is, see reasoning below.





Things i considered but don't want to go for:


For the first, i really would have liked to have a +buy card, but obviously having a buy on there makes it strictly better than Woodcutter.
The second is rather useless when you just have one, which i don't really want the card to be.
(Edit: I also considered a version á la Herbalist (just +1$ +1 Buy standard), but that was weak, and a Herbalist version that gave an action, which became too similar to Fool's Gold/Candlestick Maker for my liking.)

Also thanks for your valuable responses, i'm a bit weak on deciding today i'm afraid :)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 11:10:15 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #263 on: June 07, 2015, 06:57:19 pm »
+4

Played a testgame today with Co0kieL0rd, and boy it's no fun to have Necromancers on both sides trashed with Zombie, just to have the first player to play a Necromancer get them all. I'm considering to change the wording on Necromancer to something like this:

"Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash. If it is not a Necromancer, play it"

Alternatively, i could reevaluate versions that give a standard bonus and just gain the trashed card.

Also Necromancer/Zombie prolongues the game a fair bit, so i'm reconsidering a Knight clause on Zombie again. Not sure it will help, because you can still gain Zombies with Necromancer.

To be fair, the game also had Parliament, and Zombies were an attractive target. Needless to say that, like Saboteur, multiple Zombie attacks per turn can destroy a deck. I ended up with 10 cards in mine and Co0kieL0rd ran out of things to steal from me. Ouch. Still a fun game.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #264 on: June 07, 2015, 07:14:56 pm »
+2

I think the suggested nerf to Zombie is especially important to make sure the card does not become as frustrating and unpopular as Saboteur, but still as annoying as Knights ;) While I personally enjoyed the game, I can easily see people being frustrated when getting attacked by an engine that plays several Zombies a turn.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #265 on: June 07, 2015, 09:07:53 pm »
+4

A few options:

• Necromancer could only be able to gain cards costing less than it.
• Zombies could only trash cards costing $3 or $4, like Warrior.
• Zombies could always trash themselves when they trash a card (LibraryAdventurer's suggestion).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #266 on: June 08, 2015, 12:50:18 am »
+2

The version I ended up printing and using had "If any cards costing more then $4 are trashed, trash this."  :
Quote
Zombie
Cost $4*. Action - Attack
+1 Action. +$1.
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest. If any cards costing more then $4 are trashed, trash this.
(This is not in the supply.)
I thought it was fun, but we only played one game with it and only once had anyone play more than one Zombie in a turn.

I like your idea of saying "Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash. If it is not a Necromancer, play it".

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #267 on: June 08, 2015, 06:28:06 am »
+1

The version I ended up printing and using had "If any cards costing more then $4 are trashed, trash this."  :
Quote
Zombie
Cost $4*. Action - Attack
+1 Action. +$1.
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest. If any cards costing more then $4 are trashed, trash this.
(This is not in the supply.)
I thought it was fun, but we only played one game with it and only once had anyone play more than one Zombie in a turn.

I like your idea of saying "Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash. If it is not a Necromancer, play it".

Wow, thanks for using the card and sharing your experience. :)
Awesome.


We also had another game where Co0kieL0rd's Beachcomb and Money Launderer met my Town and Paddock. There were also Jack and Sea Hag.  Too many good cards for me to see through, but what became apparent was that only a few Roads could be insanely good, even with Town as the only Village. Might have to revisit those two again. Paddock wasn't that bad, but couldn't keep me from losing the game after i made the awful mistakes to skip Sea Hag for Jack and not get any Beachcombs. For reference to Co0kieL0rd's cards see his thread "Roots and Renewal".
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #268 on: June 08, 2015, 11:33:20 am »
+1

Thanks for referencing my set :)

For Paddock I have to say this: while the card is fine per se, it is rarely a good idea to focus your strategy around Silver. In our game, alt-VP were weak (Island) and engine potential was strong. Paddock had no place in it. I'd be happy to play a game where Paddock is more useful (slog/BM?).

As for Town, it became apparent what I didn't really consider prior to testing it; in a deck full of villages, you basically only need one Road (2-3 to increase your chance of drawing it early) to draw your entire deck. You could nerf it by saying, e. g. "If you played less than [X] actions this turn, put this into your hand." This isn't very elegant, but I have no better idea currently. Maybe it's not that big of an issue, because in practise a deck whose draw power only relies on a few Roads might stall quickly after you start greening. With this in mind, Road might still be fine.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #269 on: June 08, 2015, 01:50:43 pm »
+1

As for Town, it became apparent what I didn't really consider prior to testing it; in a deck full of villages, you basically only need one Road (2-3 to increase your chance of drawing it early) to draw your entire deck. You could nerf it by saying, e. g. "If you played less than [X] actions this turn, put this into your hand." This isn't very elegant, but I have no better idea currently. Maybe it's not that big of an issue, because in practise a deck whose draw power only relies on a few Roads might stall quickly after you start greening. With this in mind, Road might still be fine.

...Were you here while I vehemently argued that Road (back when it was still called River) should cost 5$? :P

Please don't add that clause, or you'll make kittens cry. :(
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #270 on: June 08, 2015, 02:21:32 pm »
+1

As for Town, it became apparent what I didn't really consider prior to testing it; in a deck full of villages, you basically only need one Road (2-3 to increase your chance of drawing it early) to draw your entire deck. You could nerf it by saying, e. g. "If you played less than [X] actions this turn, put this into your hand." This isn't very elegant, but I have no better idea currently. Maybe it's not that big of an issue, because in practise a deck whose draw power only relies on a few Roads might stall quickly after you start greening. With this in mind, Road might still be fine.

...Were you here while I vehemently argued that Road (back when it was still called River) should cost 5$? :P

Please don't add that clause, or you'll make kittens cry. :(

It should cost $5! But unfortunately, with +1 Action tokens now existing, it cannot be a Supply card. Even as a non-Supply card it's still problematic with Champion. Even with neither of those available, when we playtest Road more, it might turn out to be hugely better than we intially thought. And then it might need some kind of nerf or penalty.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #271 on: June 08, 2015, 02:25:01 pm »
+2

For what it's worth, I don't think Champion is necessarily a deal-breaker for Road. I do agree that it shouldn't be in the Supply because Lost Arts is a problem.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #272 on: June 08, 2015, 02:37:18 pm »
+1

For what it's worth, I don't think Champion is necessarily a deal-breaker for Road. I do agree that it shouldn't be in the Supply because Lost Arts is a problem.
Yeah, we (Asper and I) actually already agreed that, at the point where you have a Champion, it doesn't really matter anymore anyway. Nothing does. Just go nuts with your Roads or whatever cards you like.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #273 on: June 08, 2015, 02:52:28 pm »
+6

It should cost $5!

I dunno, it's going to be really hard to hit $120 on most boards.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #274 on: June 08, 2015, 02:55:32 pm »
+1

For what it's worth, I don't think Champion is necessarily a deal-breaker for Road. I do agree that it shouldn't be in the Supply because Lost Arts is a problem.
Yeah, we (Asper and I) actually already agreed that, at the point where you have a Champion, it doesn't really matter anymore anyway. Nothing does. Just go nuts with your Roads or whatever cards you like.

Man, I knew there'd be some backlash about Champion in the community, but I didn't expect as much as there seems to be. It absolutely does matter.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #275 on: June 08, 2015, 03:17:53 pm »
+1

As for Town, it became apparent what I didn't really consider prior to testing it; in a deck full of villages, you basically only need one Road (2-3 to increase your chance of drawing it early) to draw your entire deck. You could nerf it by saying, e. g. "If you played less than [X] actions this turn, put this into your hand." This isn't very elegant, but I have no better idea currently. Maybe it's not that big of an issue, because in practise a deck whose draw power only relies on a few Roads might stall quickly after you start greening. With this in mind, Road might still be fine.

...Were you here while I vehemently argued that Road (back when it was still called River) should cost 5$? :P

Please don't add that clause, or you'll make kittens cry. :(

When you did that it didn't come with a free Village. Alas, i still must admit that i gravely underestimated the power of the vile monster i hath created.

Edit:
It should cost $5!

I dunno, it's going to be really hard to hit $120 on most boards.

I don't get it.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 03:19:38 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #276 on: June 08, 2015, 07:42:13 pm »
+2

As for Town, it became apparent what I didn't really consider prior to testing it; in a deck full of villages, you basically only need one Road (2-3 to increase your chance of drawing it early) to draw your entire deck. You could nerf it by saying, e. g. "If you played less than [X] actions this turn, put this into your hand." This isn't very elegant, but I have no better idea currently. Maybe it's not that big of an issue, because in practise a deck whose draw power only relies on a few Roads might stall quickly after you start greening. With this in mind, Road might still be fine.

...Were you here while I vehemently argued that Road (back when it was still called River) should cost 5$? :P

Please don't add that clause, or you'll make kittens cry. :(

When you did that it didn't come with a free Village. Alas, i still must admit that i gravely underestimated the power of the vile monster i hath created.

You were so preoccupied with whether or not you could that you didn't stop to think if you should. :(

Anyhoo, I wouldn't draw conclusions from a single playtest.


Quote
Edit:
It should cost $5!

I dunno, it's going to be really hard to hit $120 on most boards.

I don't get it.

5! = 5*4*3*2*1 = 120.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #277 on: June 08, 2015, 08:41:43 pm »
+1

You were so preoccupied with whether or not you could that you didn't stop to think if you should. :(

Anyhoo, I wouldn't draw conclusions from a single playtest.

That's what they told me when i did my experiments on Noble's Isle.

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*ahem*


Quote
It should cost $5!

I dunno, it's going to be really hard to hit $120 on most boards.

I don't get it.

5! = 5*4*3*2*1 = 120.

Ah. Embarrassing i didn't get that. I used to love stochastics. Thanks for explaining.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 12:04:32 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #278 on: June 12, 2015, 09:21:49 am »
+3

Co0kieL0rd and i played a very interesting game full of fun interactions recently. The kingdom was:

Realm Tax (CL's Roots & Renewal)
PawnPeasant
Sultan (My card)
Floodgate (LF's Enterprise)
Barkeep (My card)
Dungeon
Rats
Benefit (CL's Roots & Renewal)
Mint
Wine Merchant

Practically every card was used, with the exception of Rats and Wine Merchant. We used Shelters, which made Sultan a tad more attractive, and so i actually opened Floodgate/Sultan, trashing my Hovel. Co0kieL0rd went for Pawns.

Fun things were:

Realm Tax counts all card in play, including other player's Dungeons. Barkeep can be put on the Mat if you want to get Realm Tax and kept in play if you want to play one. Floodgate helped align Provinces with Sultan and was a decent target itself. Mint got rid of the Coppers to help Sultan collide with Province, and Sultan in turn provided Golds for Mint. Also it was nice to discard Overgrown Estate for Sultan and still get a Realm Tax in hand.

Benefit was able to gain lots of Barkeeps. At one point Co0kieL0rd asked me why i wasn't choking in Barkeeps, and it was only then that i realized that with a few Barkeeps on the Mat one of them behaves a bit like Cultist (if you ignore the buy) - it's as if one of the cards you drew was a Barkeep and you were allowed to play it immediately. Well, that's probably a bad comparison, especially since we used the version that gives coins, but it gave me a bit of a feel for how powerful it may be.

Co0kieL0rd later teached his Sultan Science to become a Lab, but i was allready ahead by then. I don't think i would have gotten enough Barkeeps without Benefit, or be as sucessful with my Sultans without Floodgate, Mint and Realm Tax.

We also played another fun game yesterday (which i lost... *grumble*), but more about that later. All in all we felt this was a great Sultan/Barkeep board, and that they were sill okay at $3 each.

Edit: Another interaction i forgot was Floodgate/Dungeon. It really was full of these.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 08:24:18 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #279 on: June 13, 2015, 06:51:36 am »
+1

PEASANT, dude, not Pawn ;) Although I find myself confusing those two sometimes, too. They're potentially the new Mint and Mine.

A fun game indeed, as have been all games so far. It's a great idea to mix cards from different sets and thus create a lot of variety. The other game we played had a lot of trash-for-benefit including Asper's Assemble. It may just be too easy to Assemble a $5-cost card into a Province and a Copper which is almost not a penalty toward the end of the game. The gained cards should probably go on top of your deck in Develop's fashion.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #280 on: June 13, 2015, 08:35:13 am »
0

Peasant, Pawn? Those words practically mean the same to me O__o
No wonder i'm confusing them.

Also, yeah, i think LastFootnote suggested the topdecking for Assemble before, and i think it's a nice thing to do. It's not even strictly a nerf, as it only harms you when you trash 5$s for Provinces. For Silvers it's a topdecking Mint, and there might be cases where you want to make a 4$ and a $2 out of a 3$, or even two 4$s out of a 5$. Granted, those cases is a lot less trivial, but shifting the card a bit in that direction makes it potentially more interesting in my book. Assemble should be nice with good/harmless $2s.

Here are the mockups of the new Assemble and the slightly tweaked Necromancer:



I'm still not sure Zombie needs a nerf, as i'm more and more getting the feeling that the problem lies with Parliament, not Zombie. For this reason i'm removing Parliament for now and hope to give Zombie another go sooner or later.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #281 on: June 22, 2015, 07:00:54 am »
+2

The Parliament is dead. Long live the Parliamentses.

(Images were killed by host)

The first one seems incredibly strong to me, but maybe it's okay. It's like a Mint for actions... that gives a bonus... and puts them in your hand... But at least it does nothing on gain. Not that much of a TR variant, anymore, though.
The second one is so much worse for terminals, but might have its places.

Probably not my brightest ideas, but whatever. Better than the old one, at least...
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 10:19:01 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #282 on: June 22, 2015, 07:48:44 am »
+4

I think the version of Parliament that played an Action twice if it cost $4 and three times if it costs $3 or less was your most creative idea (of all the Parliaments). It didn't seem broken or un-fun to me. The problem when we played with it was just that there was a $3-cost trashing attack which made Parliament seem overpowererd when technically it isn't. But, I mean, it's your cards so if you didn't like that version, that's your decision, man.

In the case of these two new suggestions I'd prefer the simpler one, the right one. I don't think it needs the word "too" on it but if you think it does, there should be a comma before it. Both cards seem less interesting to me than your old parliament. Also both are quite similar to Disciple, the right one in particular. I also had a similar idea for a TR-variant that became obsolete with Disciple.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #283 on: June 22, 2015, 01:38:35 pm »
+1

I think the version of Parliament that played an Action twice if it cost $4 and three times if it costs $3 or less was your most creative idea (of all the Parliaments). It didn't seem broken or un-fun to me. The problem when we played with it was just that there was a $3-cost trashing attack which made Parliament seem overpowererd when technically it isn't. But, I mean, it's your cards so if you didn't like that version, that's your decision, man.

In the case of these two new suggestions I'd prefer the simpler one, the right one. I don't think it needs the word "too" on it but if you think it does, there should be a comma before it. Both cards seem less interesting to me than your old parliament. Also both are quite similar to Disciple, the right one in particular. I also had a similar idea for a TR-variant that became obsolete with Disciple.

Ehm... Good point, Disciple is really similar. We allready played with it, but i still didn't remember it that good. Maybe i should just give the old version another shot. I guess Zombie just wasn't a very good situation to... um... test in peace.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #284 on: June 24, 2015, 03:33:44 pm »
+3

What time is it? Hammer? Goofy? Adventure? No! It's Asper's CardsTM update time!



1st, i finally found art to put on my very-much-about-name card "Iron Maiden". I wouldn't feel comfortable without pointing out that Sir Peebles had a very similar idea at practically the same time i had this one (a long time ago), and i guess it's apparent why - the card is about the pun, and the pun obviously demands an "Ironworks type" attack - which in turn is something you can only implement in so many different ways. His gave a different bonus when played, though.



It's absurdly much text, but really not that complicated. The only choice you make is the bonus you take (which is why i put it at the start of the card - you don't want people to believe they should wait for others to discard before making up their mind), and the attack is just "random" junking.



Parliament is back, for now. I still have to decide how i want it to interact with cost reducers, but i'll give it another try.
Edit: I'm talking about the older concept of playing cheaper cards more often than more expensive cards, as the versions i posted somewhere these days were pretty much Disciple:



Version one cares about cost reduction, version 2 (mostly) doesn't.



For Road, i'll try a version that doesn't automatically return to your hand but instead trades another card for itself. This might actually reduce the "Too many Roads" element, as you can always just discard them, but either ways should help as a nerf. It's not exactly pretty, but still relatively simple.





Sultan now costs $4. I recently beat Co0kieL0rd all too easily using one of his cards to get an early Province and from then on drowned in Golds (we actually ended the game when we noticed that all VP cards in the supply wouldn't be enough for him to beat me). I'm not sure how much Sultan is to blame for this, the other card was pretty strong, but i feel that since you don't want to open with it, anyhow ("What about Fool's Gold?"), it's okay. I certainly feel a bit more comfortable about a potential Gold gainer to cost $4, and hey, people won't complain about how he's better than Explorer, anymore. If it turns out to become too niche this way, i'll put all the blame on Co0kieL0rd and his card and act as if a price of $4 never happened.



Yes, that sounds like a plan...



My art from Politician is back on a new card named Manufacturer. I wanted to name this one "Factory", but Factories are a bit too modern. And yes, the cost reduction of course means you can immediately gain a card with a $5 written on it.
Edit: Probably the version with the Bridge wording is more clear, see below.





Phew, i'm not used to writing this kind of long "let me explain how amazing my cards are" posts... I hope you had fun, please tune in next time. What time? Asper's CardsTM update time!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 05:04:37 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #285 on: June 24, 2015, 03:44:06 pm »
+4

Iron Maiden is the perfect example of a card that can contain a whole lot of text, because as soon as you read it once you don't need to re-read each word each time you play it.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #286 on: June 24, 2015, 03:59:44 pm »
+1

Iron Maiden is the perfect example of a card that can contain a whole lot of text, because as soon as you read it once you don't need to re-read each word each time you play it.

I'm very glad you think this :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #287 on: June 24, 2015, 04:06:26 pm »
+2

To a casual player, I don't think it's obvious whether the cost reduction happens before the gaining on Manufacturer.  Actually, it's not obvious to me either.  I think you play a card before it's actually in play right?  So the gaining happens first?  You'll probably want to find a wording that makes it really clear.  I think it's a pretty nice idea though.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #288 on: June 24, 2015, 04:08:39 pm »
+2

The nerf to road seems a bit too harsh?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #289 on: June 24, 2015, 04:20:19 pm »
+1

The Parliament is dead. Long live the Parliamentses.



Convincing.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #290 on: June 24, 2015, 04:27:56 pm »
+1

I think you play a card before it's actually in play right?

No.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #291 on: June 24, 2015, 04:38:08 pm »
+1

To a casual player, I don't think it's obvious whether the cost reduction happens before the gaining on Manufacturer.  Actually, it's not obvious to me either.  I think you play a card before it's actually in play right?  So the gaining happens first?  You'll probably want to find a wording that makes it really clear.  I think it's a pretty nice idea though.

The original card used Bridge's wording, which made the thing clear but of course meant Manufacturer was throneable. Do you think that would be better?

Hmm... Maybe it is. Not everybody is a fds member or would (hypothetically) read a(n) FAQ.

Edit: Here is the alternative:

« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 04:44:19 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #292 on: June 24, 2015, 04:49:56 pm »
+1

The nerf to road seems a bit too harsh?

Co0kieL0rd and i played a game recently where we had the feeling that if you gained a few Towns without Roads and only 1-2 Roads, it totally was enough to draw your deck. Maybe the nerf is too harsh, but at least current Road can - in the right deck - be a monster. And as Town always puts that deck in reach, a nerf seems to be the thing to go for. The current nerf is the one that felt the most natural to me - Road now is a Moat that allows you to turn one card in your hand into another Road.

Hey, Moat-Road. That even sounds similar. Yay, totally intended!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 04:51:17 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #293 on: June 24, 2015, 05:53:15 pm »
+2

The nerf to road seems a bit too harsh?

Co0kieL0rd and i played a game recently where we had the feeling that if you gained a few Towns without Roads and only 1-2 Roads, it totally was enough to draw your deck. Maybe the nerf is too harsh, but at least current Road can - in the right deck - be a monster. And as Town always puts that deck in reach, a nerf seems to be the thing to go for. The current nerf is the one that felt the most natural to me - Road now is a Moat that allows you to turn one card in your hand into another Road.

Hey, Moat-Road. That even sounds similar. Yay, totally intended!

Myeah. I am just sad because the previous version was hard to make work but was balls-to-the-wall crazy when it did. This version just isn't as exciting.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #294 on: June 25, 2015, 05:14:11 am »
0

Small update after another game Co0kieL0rd vs me:

LastFootnote's Gamblers is a cantrip trasher and insanely strong. I lost the game where it appeared because i didn't go for it immediately. When i did, i played it once as a one-shot Lab. Well, it might also have not helped my cause to try attacking Co0kieL0rd with Haunted Woods when the board had Manufacturer and Alms...

Manufacturer is absurdly good. If you don't think the first one played during your turn is at least on par with Altar, the second or third will make you realize why it is amazingly strong. And that's not even considering #4 can gain Provinces. I'm considering either costing it at $7 or, preferrably, give it some kind of penalty on gain/buy. It's certainly the most "Prosperity" card i have.

Iron Maiden's on-play effect is not much fun. It's balanced the way it is now, but Co0kieL0rd didn't really have room for it in his engine and i decided to go for Haunted Woods instead (which was totally a mistake). I might make it discard the top card of your own deck for an appropriate bonus (which somehow was exactly what Co0kieL0rd immediately wanted to do when playing it the first time) or give it a standard bonus. I also considered letting it choose bonuses according to one of the discarded cards ("Choose one of the discarded cards. If it is...") but obviously this makes it more reliable in multiplayer games - not exactly "reliable", though, so it might work.

We only played a single game of Road until now, so we might playtest it soon to see whether pacovf is right and it shouldn't be nerfed (as harshly). :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #295 on: June 29, 2015, 07:59:26 pm »
+5

Man, man, my cards are too expensive... Here are two ideas.



One, Fountain, is a very old thing. I wanted to cost it at $2, but that would allow people to gain two of them each turn (edit: on opening turns), and also pushing them to $3 made it easier to justify the +3 Actions. At some point in its life cycle, this topdecked the new card and only allowed to gain a card with a different name than the returned card.

For Decree, i DID consider costing it at $2, but then i decided the "drawback" would be an advantage often enough to cost it equally to Silver. At the very least, if you have no unplayable cards in hand, you can play a single Decree last. It also helps mitigate Terminal collisions. Which Treasure can say that about itself?

Also, bonus card:



Not sure whether "potentially double-Village, potentially double-Ruined-Village" is any fun, though.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 08:36:35 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #296 on: June 29, 2015, 10:22:16 pm »
+5

OK, it's official: Asper is my favorite card designer (who isn't me or Donald).

I really like Fountain's bottom, and it's top seems like a decent match. Depending on the $2 cards, you might want to think twice about converting those Estates too early.

I would definitely test Decree at $2; you can always change it to $3 if it doesn't work out.

Sunken City looks unique and interesting. Shades of Herald, obviously, but definitely different enough. (The fact that the text is all at the top of the text box irks me.)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #297 on: June 30, 2015, 03:25:20 am »
+3

OK, it's official: Asper is my favorite card designer (who isn't me or Donald).

This coming from you is a great honor to me. :)
I'll try my best to keep up with it.

I would definitely test Decree at $2; you can always change it to $3 if it doesn't work out.

Sunken City looks unique and interesting. Shades of Herald, obviously, but definitely different enough. (The fact that the text is all at the top of the text box irks me.)

The decision between $3 and $2 was mostly a matter of taste. I figured experienced players would usually be able to actively improve their deck using Decree, and more than with just Silver. But i understand why $2 seems more appropriate - to less experienced players, it's going to look like a bad drawback, and the price difference isn't big enough to make much of a difference for experienced players anyhow. I'll put it at $2.

Oops, i knew something was looking odd there. Will fix.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 03:27:30 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #298 on: June 30, 2015, 04:22:41 am »
0

As i mentioned earlier, Manufacturer is a beast. Or, Minister is, because CL thought Manufacturer was just as bad a name as Factory due to anachronis... anachronismity(?). So now, it's Minister. Here are two standard ideas for nerfs:



And, as i considered bringing back Vampire in a less "fantasy" and more "Prosperity-like" look, anyway, i'm also thinking about this other solution:



There are things i like about the last solution, like salvaging my approach to a "self-curser", or that it doesn't change how the card plays (the other two do in in more than one way, each, which i think might make them unreasonably harsh). Still, it also makes the card more complex and it's certainly not a "tailor-made" solution. I'll playtest them all, if i can.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #299 on: June 30, 2015, 10:00:20 am »
+2

Yay, new cards :D And really cool ideas, too! With these additions, your whole compilation of cards might be my favourite (after my own set) as well.

Fountain reminds me of a certain other card we are developing together ;) The on-buy bonus is a neat idea and makes possible some unique combos, I would think.

Funnily enough, my initial thought was, Decree might even cost $4 but that's probably out of scale. I like it at $3; $2 would seem too cheap to me.

Sunken City is also very cool. I can't wait to test all these with you ;)

As for Minister, you know I prefer an on-gain "penalty", and you also know I dislike this VP-stuff for other players. I was hoping you would come up with something that makes gaining a Minister more challenging, like Grand Market's penalty. Or are you satisfied with this solution?

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #300 on: June 30, 2015, 10:26:22 am »
+4

I prefer Decree at $2, to make it feel more different from Silver.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #301 on: June 30, 2015, 10:45:01 am »
+1

So this would be a tiny change which would completely change the type of card; but what if Decree cost more and the top-deck were optional? The problem is I'm not sure if it's good enough for , and you want to avoid Silver+.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #302 on: June 30, 2015, 10:53:06 am »
+2

So this would be a tiny change which would completely change the type of card; but what if Decree cost more and the top-deck were optional? The problem is I'm not sure if it's good enough for , and you want to avoid Silver+.

There are a few reasons why it's not optional, and the most important one would be that i wanted to have more cheap cards. Also, there are so many Silver+ for $5, doing another one just doesn't look as exciting to me. Additionally, i allready have that with Jeweler (and arguably Aqueduct).

Edit: Also, can you do that coin thing automatically? That's pretty cool. You're working on stuff like that, aren't you?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 10:54:28 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #303 on: June 30, 2015, 11:07:56 am »
+1

I also agree it looks more appealing at $2 cost. More new ground explored that way.

Both of your most recent cards look really well-designed- definitely not something I could come up with on my own (I.e. it's creative) and seemingly well-balanced and with good dynamics.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #304 on: June 30, 2015, 11:20:02 am »
+1

I'm really flattered about all of this positive feedback. Thank you all a lot. :)

Fountain is just such an old idea that had a lot of time to develop, and Decree... Well, i basically stumbled across it. Let's just say that i'm very happy about all your replies now and hoping that my next cards don't get so terrible you all regret them :P
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #305 on: June 30, 2015, 11:21:56 am »
+2

So this would be a tiny change which would completely change the type of card; but what if Decree cost more and the top-deck were optional? The problem is I'm not sure if it's good enough for , and you want to avoid Silver+.


Edit: Also, can you do that coin thing automatically? That's pretty cool. You're working on stuff like that, aren't you?

It's part of my Chrome extension; see my signature.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #306 on: June 30, 2015, 02:24:49 pm »
+1

The nerf to road seems a bit too harsh?

Co0kieL0rd and i played a game recently where we had the feeling that if you gained a few Towns without Roads and only 1-2 Roads, it totally was enough to draw your deck. Maybe the nerf is too harsh, but at least current Road can - in the right deck - be a monster. And as Town always puts that deck in reach, a nerf seems to be the thing to go for. The current nerf is the one that felt the most natural to me - Road now is a Moat that allows you to turn one card in your hand into another Road.

Hey, Moat-Road. That even sounds similar. Yay, totally intended!

Myeah. I am just sad because the previous version was hard to make work but was balls-to-the-wall crazy when it did. This version just isn't as exciting.

Occured to me just now i never answered this: The problem was, it really wasn't that hard to do. It just was crazy, without any real problem. But it's going to get some more testing soon, i hope, and then we'll see.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #307 on: June 30, 2015, 07:37:22 pm »
+1

Personally, I like the third option for Minister best for the reason you said: it gives it a drawback without changing the way it plays.

I like Fountain, but I don't care for Decree or Sunken City. They just seem uninteresting/unattractive.
(but I agree that $2 cost fan cards are hard to do.)

EDIT: Oh, and to help keep the praise from getting to you too much: I like several of your cards, but you're not in my top 3 favorite fan-card designers. (My two favorite being myself and Lastfootnote).
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 07:42:04 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #308 on: June 30, 2015, 07:58:36 pm »
+1

Note that the wording on Warrior shows for sure that a card is considered "in play" while you follow its on-play instructions. But it does clarify with "(including this)", so it might be good for Manufacturer to have similar clarification.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #309 on: June 30, 2015, 08:05:02 pm »
+1

""-July: Asper posts new cards-

Psche, this is sooooo last month. You should check out sh4d0ww4rri0r0811's fan cards, that's where it's at.""

BTW, I know that you are all jealous of my superior fancarding skillz and that's why nobody's mentioned me yet. RIGHT!?!?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #310 on: June 30, 2015, 08:09:05 pm »
+2

Personally, I like the third option for Minister best for the reason you said: it gives it a drawback without changing the way it plays.

I like Fountain, but I don't care for Decree or Sunken City. They just seem uninteresting/unattractive.
(but I agree that $2 cost fan cards are hard to do.)

EDIT: Oh, and to help keep the praise from getting to you too much: I like several of your cards, but you're not in my top 3 favorite fan-card designers. (My two favorite being myself and Lastfootnote).

Dammned, now i'm all back down to earth... Guess i'll have to cancel that radio interview where i was going to mention how i am bigger than Donald...

And i can totally see why you think of Sunken City and Decree as uninteresting. I guess it's a matter of preference. I'm hoping that, even though they are rather simple, they'll still offer a unique gaming experience.

Edit: But seriously, i appreciate it. I'm actually surprised nobody picked out Sunken City to critizise it as too luck-dependant, yet. Usually, i like to get my cards as simple as possible, and i understand they might be lacking in a way to some people.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 08:18:42 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #311 on: July 01, 2015, 06:48:24 am »
0

Yay, new cards :D And really cool ideas, too! With these additions, your whole compilation of cards might be my favourite (after my own set) as well.

Fountain reminds me of a certain other card we are developing together ;) The on-buy bonus is a neat idea and makes possible some unique combos, I would think.

Funnily enough, my initial thought was, Decree might even cost $4 but that's probably out of scale. I like it at $3; $2 would seem too cheap to me.

Sunken City is also very cool. I can't wait to test all these with you ;)

As for Minister, you know I prefer an on-gain "penalty", and you also know I dislike this VP-stuff for other players. I was hoping you would come up with something that makes gaining a Minister more challenging, like Grand Market's penalty. Or are you satisfied with this solution?

Thanks :)

It's funny, the similarity of Fountain to you-know-what didn't occur to me at all. I think they serve vastly different purposes, though, with Fountain being unable to actively thin your deck. Also, i'm looking forward to when we can play again :)

About Decree, the control it offers is what made me charge $3, but i think LastFootnote is right. It probably will be rather useful in some decks, but you don't want to pick up dozends of them, and i would like it to not be "Huh, why would i buy that over Silver?" to less experienced players. Hmm... I guess with a drawer, it's much better to draw one of these with a terminal. We should check it soon.

About Minister, i'm not sure i like it. I do want to make some card with that VP penalty, because it's something not there, yet, and it works. I know you don't like it, but let's assume i'm going to make one either way - would Minister, a very strong, rather expensive card, that likes to gain copies of itself, and needs a nerf, be a bad match for that penalty? I guess you'd like something that makes gaining Ministers actually harder, but that would either mean increasing the price to $7 (which i'd be fine with it it plays out good) or giving it some more complex limitation, like costing it at $8 and saying "in your buy phase, this costs 2$ less" or something. Or make it gain a Copper on gain, or make you discard a card on gain, or what have you. I couldn't really think of something that wasn't at least as complex as the VP thing, without being more interesting.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #312 on: July 01, 2015, 09:16:30 am »
+2

I don't get your last sentence because to me, the VP penalty appears as rather simple. Balancing-wise, I think it is as appropriate as Lost City's penalty, and actually pretty minor. Which is okay imo because I think while Minister's self-synergy is strong when it actually works, it's harder to pull off than, let's say, a Grand Market stack if it wasn't for its major buy restriction. So if you like it, you should stick with it. I definitely prefer it to raising the cost to $7 or limiting it to gain cards costing up to $3 which would make it awful.

Actually, it would be pretty awesome if you Swindled another player's Gold into a Minister so you gain 1 VP and then end the game and win by a point :D
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #313 on: July 01, 2015, 09:49:51 am »
0

I don't get your last sentence because to me, the VP penalty appears as rather simple. Balancing-wise, I think it is as appropriate as Lost City's penalty, and actually pretty minor. Which is okay imo because I think while Minister's self-synergy is strong when it actually works, it's harder to pull off than, let's say, a Grand Market stack if it wasn't for its major buy restriction. So if you like it, you should stick with it. I definitely prefer it to raising the cost to $7 or limiting it to gain cards costing up to $3 which would make it awful.

Actually, it would be pretty awesome if you Swindled another player's Gold into a Minister so you gain 1 VP and then end the game and win by a point :D

What i was trying to say was, i didn't find anything that was both as simple as and more interesting then the VP penalty, which is why i actually think i'll stick with it for now. The only real disadvantage this (or any other "on-gain" penalty) has is that i can't have it and reduce costs "while in play" without having two dividing lines. But meh, i think a card that goes that far can also survive additional Throne Room craziness, especially when it helps understand the timing...
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #314 on: July 01, 2015, 10:54:10 am »
+2

Without having played with it, I'm leery of Minister. I feel like cost reduction and gaining are such a powerful combo that they don't need to be on the same card. On the other hand it hasn't been done before and it's simple rules-wise. The penalty is also a nice simple thing. I was going to talk about how I prefer fan expansions to be self contained—not needing components (like VP chips) from other sets—but I suppose this isn't an expansion so much as a collection of cards, and it already uses Potions, etc. So nevermind that; cool penalty.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #315 on: July 01, 2015, 11:21:03 am »
+1

Without having played with it, I'm leery of Minister. I feel like cost reduction and gaining are such a powerful combo that they don't need to be on the same card. On the other hand it hasn't been done before and it's simple rules-wise. The penalty is also a nice simple thing. I was going to talk about how I prefer fan expansions to be self contained—not needing components (like VP chips) from other sets—but I suppose this isn't an expansion so much as a collection of cards, and it already uses Potions, etc. So nevermind that; cool penalty.

Thanks. I don't consider my cards an expansion, as you said. If anything, it's more of a treasure chest. I mean, i catch myself thinking stuff like "i don't have enough cheap cards" or "i don't have a Cornucopia card, yet", but that's light compared to the complexity of making a realistic expansion that has to follow the rules you mentioned, and many more. If i really wanted to do an expansion, i'd not only have to worry about things like components or card count, but also couldn't reasonably have that many different kinds of cards in it. But looking at Seaside, thinking "Can i make a card that would fit in Seaside?", that's fun to me, and as i'm not going to make money with it either way, Donald doesn't care much about fan cards, and most people here either have the components or play online anyhow, i'm fine with just fooling around.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #316 on: July 01, 2015, 12:51:58 pm »
+1

If anything, it's more of a treasure chest.

Treasure Chest
$5: Treasure

+$2
When you play this, gain a Potion, a Ruins, and a Prize (from the Prize pile).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #317 on: July 07, 2015, 05:41:17 pm »
0

After a little game involving Barkeep with Fragasnap and Co0kieL0rd, i'm again considering alternative versions, including one that does the same but costs $4, a version that costs $3 and lacks the buy, and a version that draws cards like the original did (possibly without the buy or for $4). The version i have right now seemed a bit too self-supporting and also like a card you always had to contest. I really don't like cards that make you feel you have to win a split, but maybe that's part of Barkeep's nature. Either way, i'm currently on the lookout for alternatives.



Another reason why i'm posting here is this:



It's my most recent take at a concept i have been working on for quite a while - an attack that lets you decide whether an opponent may keep his hand or has to exchange it for another. The bottom part is there for reasons, but i'm curious as to how obvious those reasons are and/or how natural that part feels. It might be a bit more complicated than i usually like my cards to be, and i'm not sure about its power, either. Complaints and considerations welcome.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #318 on: July 07, 2015, 05:48:28 pm »
+1



It's my most recent take at a concept i have been working on for quite a while - an attack that lets you decide whether an opponent may keep his hand or has to exchange it for another. The bottom part is there for reasons, but i'm curious as to how obvious those reasons are and/or how natural that part feels. It might be a bit more complicated than i usually like my cards to be, and i'm not sure about its power, either. Complaints and considerations welcome.

Donald tried a Navigator-style attack like this as an on-gain ability in Hinterlands. "They had problems on early turns and late turns". That's no reason not to try this one, but I thought I'd mention it.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #319 on: July 07, 2015, 05:49:25 pm »
+1

Tribunal looks a bit weak for a Smithy+ because the attack is so unpredicatable. It is political which isn't taboo but usually frowned upon as you know. Still, it's your decision whether you want such a card. Of course, it only makes sense when you are able to decide for each individual player. I don't see why it doesn't just say "Each other player draws 5 cards and discards a card" at the bottom.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #320 on: July 07, 2015, 06:05:00 pm »
+1

Tribunal looks a bit weak for a Smithy+ because the attack is so unpredicatable. It is political which isn't taboo but usually frowned upon as you know. Still, it's your decision whether you want such a card. Of course, it only makes sense when you are able to decide for each individual player.

I don't see how it's political. What am I missing?

I don't see why it doesn't just say "Each other player draws 5 cards and discards a card" at the bottom.

You mean "Each other player draws until he has 5 cards in hand, then discards a card"? I agree that that phrasing seems simpler.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #321 on: July 07, 2015, 06:14:22 pm »
0


It's my most recent take at a concept i have been working on for quite a while - an attack that lets you decide whether an opponent may keep his hand or has to exchange it for another. The bottom part is there for reasons, but i'm curious as to how obvious those reasons are and/or how natural that part feels. It might be a bit more complicated than i usually like my cards to be, and i'm not sure about its power, either. Complaints and considerations welcome.

Donald tried a Navigator-style attack like this as an on-gain ability in Hinterlands. "They had problems on early turns and late turns". That's no reason not to try this one, but I thought I'd mention it.

I think i remember you mentioning something like this, but i don't think i understood the reason. Navigator wouldn't have come to my mind at all. Actually, i still don't get the common aspect.
Edit: Whoops, i think i misread. Strangely enough, i DID think i remembered you stating something like this. At the very least, i think we talked about an older version of this card, so it might be my memory adding things that didn't happen.


Tribunal looks a bit weak for a Smithy+ because the attack is so unpredicatable. It is political which isn't taboo but usually frowned upon as you know. Still, it's your decision whether you want such a card. Of course, it only makes sense when you are able to decide for each individual player. I don't see why it doesn't just say "Each other player draws 5 cards and discards a card" at the bottom.

It decides for each player, not for all at once. Huh, i guess the wording doesn't make this clear enough.

"Each other player draws 5 cards and discards a card" would have players that i don't let discard end up with 9 cards in hand. "each other player draws up to 5 and discards a card" would have players that drew a card for Council Room or Soothsayer have another number of cards in hand in the end depending on which option i chose. I admit this difference isn't really worth the extra wordiness, but i kind of preferred it.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 06:17:53 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #322 on: July 07, 2015, 06:19:06 pm »
+1

I should have been more clear: "Each other player reveals his and, and you may choose for each player that he discards it. If he does, he draws 5 cards and discards a card." This is unaffected Council Rooms, Soothsayers etc. because all the cards they previously drew will be discarded.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #323 on: July 07, 2015, 06:26:35 pm »
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I should have been more clear: "Each other player reveals his and, and you may choose for each player that he discards it. If he does, he draws 5 cards and discards a card." This is unaffected Council Rooms, Soothsayers etc. because all the cards they previously drew will be discarded.

Yup. So i see, it's NOT clear enough why the bottom part is the way it is. Your version can be played over and over until a player has the worst possible hand. My version can't, because players that didn't discard their hand STILL draw until they have 5 and then discard one. So, if i let another player keep his cards for several plays of Tribunal, his hand gradually improves because of the sifting.

Edit: Sorry, i think this sounded really arrogant. Not intended at all, my sincere apologies. What i mean is, the reason for that part is avoiding a possible Tribunal pin where you play the card until somebody has the worst possible hand. As every player, not only those discarding their entire hand, draws up to five and then discards a card, players that allready have a bad hand (and were hit by Tribunal or another discard attack before) will still draw and discard at least one card, allowing them to sift a little.

Also, improved mockup:

« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 06:48:23 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #324 on: July 07, 2015, 07:42:07 pm »
+1

I was too lazy again to explain why I suggested the above wording: I just think Tribunal is both simpler and stronger if other players only draw to 5 and discard in case they previously dropped their hand.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #325 on: July 08, 2015, 04:31:21 am »
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I was too lazy again to explain why I suggested the above wording: I just think Tribunal is both simpler and stronger if other players only draw to 5 and discard in case they previously dropped their hand.

You are right on both things, of course. Power isn't my main concern, but complexity is important. The problem is, this is the issue this card idea has always had: It always had me end up either with a card that enables pins, or, if i added additional stuff to avoid that, a card that was too complicated. I hoped this version would still be simple enough, but maybe i'm just desperately trying to make the attack work.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #326 on: July 09, 2015, 11:37:46 pm »
0

I decided sleeping was a much too reasonable thing to do and instead added some rambling about each card to the OP. What is wrong with me?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #327 on: July 10, 2015, 01:10:10 am »
+1

Just posting to say that Nouveau Riches should not be going anywhere. It's one of my favorite cards in your set, and plays out really fun.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #328 on: July 10, 2015, 07:21:48 am »
0

Just posting to say that Nouveau Riches should not be going anywhere. It's one of my favorite cards in your set, and plays out really fun.

Really? Cool. Do you use the Duchy option from time to time?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #329 on: July 11, 2015, 10:31:52 am »
0

Little newsflash inbetween:

I'll test a version of Minister that gives the +1VP to opponents when you play it, making it much more similar to Vampire in that respect.The VP on gain did practically nothing. Then again, i wouldn't normally have been able to get a Minister by turn 2, like i did in our last test game... Either way, i think it's the right way to go, though i'll probably not be able to test it soon. There are two versions, the second of which makes the gain optional and only gives opponents VP when you gain a card.

I'm considering to give Homunculus a +1 Buy on buy. Hey, a card where that actually works, woohoo! That would make Potion practically a Traveller on Homunculus boards and buff Homunculus. Still not sure it needs the buff, but the Potion mechanic DOES make it a bit worse than i initially planned. So far it has worked, though, so probably no +Buy.

I'll try the 4-pile version of Meadow (that trashes Provinces from the supply) some time. The current version is okay, but strictly better than Province during the last turn, which i really don't like. I considered a version that always makes Province and Meadow pile deplete no matter which of both was bought, but can't find a good wording and don't know whether that's worth anything.

Tribunal in its current form is mean but probably balanced. It really is a jerk card, though. I kind of want to give it another shot, though i'm not sure CL is going to agree to playing with it ever again. He really didn't like it much :P
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 10:33:15 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #330 on: July 17, 2015, 12:41:07 pm »
0



ESCAPE! I just love the boardgame "Escape - Curse of the Temple". It's the opposite of Dominion, in case you wonder, and i can really recommend playing it.

That's not really why i did Artifact, though. In reality, Artifact is my attempt to fix "Aqueduct", which was the same just as an action card and with mandatory discard. The problem with that one was that it was really strong (buy-less Grand Market early and late in the game) and also not very exciting. Therefore, this is an attempt to make it both a bit weaker and more interesting. Admittedly, while it gains a disadvantage (can't play drawn Actions), it also gains an advantage: You don't have to discard a card. Obviously i could have worded it mandatory, too, but then again you'd usually be able to just play Artifact last so you won't have to discard a card you could have played. Played it once so far and it's nice, but not as strong as Aqueduct used to be.

In other news, Assassin is gone. I just never felt i wanted to playtest it because the attack was so harsh, and that's pretty much enough reason to scrap it.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #331 on: July 17, 2015, 12:53:00 pm »
+3

It's the opposite of Dominion, in case you wonder, and i can really recommend playing it.

So it's a deck destruction game?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #332 on: July 17, 2015, 01:01:44 pm »
+3

It's the opposite of Dominion, in case you wonder, and i can really recommend playing it.

So it's a deck destruction game?

Nope. It's a real-time, thematic, cooperative, low-on-abstractions, dice-centered, 10-minute, fun-with-six-players, only-works-IRL, you-can-play-this-with-people-who-do-not-understand-complex-games game.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #333 on: July 17, 2015, 01:10:36 pm »
+1



ESCAPE! I just love the boardgame "Escape - Curse of the Temple". It's the opposite of Dominion, in case you wonder, and i can really recommend playing it.

That's not really why i did Artifact, though. In reality, Artifact is my attempt to fix "Aqueduct", which was the same just as an action card and with mandatory discard. The problem with that one was that it was really strong (buy-less Grand Market early and late in the game) and also not very exciting. Therefore, this is an attempt to make it both a bit weaker and more interesting. Admittedly, while it gains a disadvantage (can't play drawn Actions), it also gains an advantage: You don't have to discard a card. Obviously i could have worded it mandatory, too, but then again you'd usually be able to just play Artifact last so you won't have to discard a card you could have played. Played it once so far and it's nice, but not as strong as Aqueduct used to be.

In other news, Assassin is gone. I just never felt i wanted to playtest it because the attack was so harsh, and that's pretty much enough reason to scrap it.

Other than producing 2, how does this ever do anything more for you than venture does?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #334 on: July 17, 2015, 01:31:15 pm »
0


ESCAPE! I just love the boardgame "Escape - Curse of the Temple". It's the opposite of Dominion, in case you wonder, and i can really recommend playing it.

That's not really why i did Artifact, though. In reality, Artifact is my attempt to fix "Aqueduct", which was the same just as an action card and with mandatory discard. The problem with that one was that it was really strong (buy-less Grand Market early and late in the game) and also not very exciting. Therefore, this is an attempt to make it both a bit weaker and more interesting. Admittedly, while it gains a disadvantage (can't play drawn Actions), it also gains an advantage: You don't have to discard a card. Obviously i could have worded it mandatory, too, but then again you'd usually be able to just play Artifact last so you won't have to discard a card you could have played. Played it once so far and it's nice, but not as strong as Aqueduct used to be.

In other news, Assassin is gone. I just never felt i wanted to playtest it because the attack was so harsh, and that's pretty much enough reason to scrap it.

Other than producing 2, how does this ever do anything more for you than venture does?

Well, it doesn't do "more", just different things... Do you think it's too similar? I admit i didn't think of Venture at all.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #335 on: July 17, 2015, 01:39:24 pm »
+1

Outside of black market and storyteller, you hope for it to draw a treasure. If it doesn't, that is like venture drawing copper. If it draws copper or better, its one better than venture drawing the same thing, but lots harder to chain. You need green to make it go.

Is there something else I'm missimg here?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #336 on: July 17, 2015, 02:15:53 pm »
0

Outside of black market and storyteller, you hope for it to draw a treasure. If it doesn't, that is like venture drawing copper. If it draws copper or better, its one better than venture drawing the same thing, but lots harder to chain. You need green to make it go.

Is there something else I'm missimg here?

I don't think you missed something. A single Artifact does more on its own, so you don't need or want that many of it. But that's it.

Actually, i feel silly because i didn't think of Venture, but i'm not sure whether they are too similar. If they are, i will maybe try to fix it as an action again.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #337 on: July 17, 2015, 02:28:36 pm »
+1

This probably a totally different card but what about as a treasure worth 2: 'you may place a card from your hand on top of your deck. If you do, +1 coin.'?

Though now that I think of it, that's probably a lot like mandarin.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2015, 02:30:28 pm by iguanaiguana »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #338 on: July 17, 2015, 03:08:35 pm »
+3

This probably a totally different card but what about as a treasure worth 2: 'you may place a card from your hand on top of your deck. If you do, +1 coin.'?

Though now that I think of it, that's probably a lot like mandarin.

Well, i allready have Decree, which topdecks cards from your hand on play (see below). Having two of those seems a bit much. But then, Artifact allready is a bit similar to Decree in that it's a Treasure that interacts with your hand... Hmm... Maybe i should give fixing the action version another shot.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #339 on: July 17, 2015, 03:28:29 pm »
+4

Yeah, Artifact seems both weak and awkward to me. I'd stick with Decree and either retry an Action version of Artifact or scrap it for now.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #340 on: July 17, 2015, 04:16:06 pm »
+1

LastFootnote, i see why you think it's awkward. It kind of seems like a less well-made Venture now that i think of it. Also, thanks for pointing out the similarity, iguanaiguana.

As there's not much in favour of keeping them, i'll scrap both versions of the card for now. Guess i didn't really think this "solution" through.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #341 on: July 17, 2015, 05:07:31 pm »
+1

Just posting to say that Nouveau Riches should not be going anywhere. It's one of my favorite cards in your set, and plays out really fun.

Really? Cool. Do you use the Duchy option from time to time?
[/quote
Yes, though the time it was best was in a game with Pasture.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #342 on: July 20, 2015, 02:49:51 pm »
+1

I am removing Parliament. It's just too strong with good cheap cards, and too weak otherwise, meaning that i couldn't manage to balance it. Also, the concept doesn't thrill me as much as it used to when i started it, so that's that.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #343 on: July 20, 2015, 07:47:01 pm »
+7

Quote from: Mad wizard that looks like Dumbledore
"It's not even a living thing!" they said, when i tried to teach the Grand Market how to be an Alchemist. Oh, but little did they know: Everything can be an Alchemist.



Potion cost event just because i felt it had to be done. In my defense, i don't think this would have worked very well with coins. Still, it might relieve people to hear that this will be my last take at the Potion mechanic for quite a while. Tested only once in a game where i lost miserably trying to use it, but still looks like it could be fun.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #344 on: July 20, 2015, 09:13:00 pm »
+2

In Reseach's defense, you didn't lose because you used Research but you bought the Potion too early when you should have gained more Action cards first. With no other Potion cards around, I reckon this Event would only be worth buying a Potion if you cannot otherwise manage to get enough consistency in your deck to draw it every turn. So it's probably best in slogs, BM+X and weak engines. It won't be worth getting just to topdeck Treasures (although Gold and Platinum might on occasions be welcome targets), and topdecking Potion is so much worse than topdecking Scheme.

All in all, Research is a clever idea and the Potion cost creates very interesting strategic decisions. I like it.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 09:14:46 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #345 on: July 20, 2015, 09:44:05 pm »
+2

The other case where Research would be pretty strong is where you have a draw-your-deck engine that needs a certain card to guarantee getting started that you may have trouble re-drawing into your hand on a regular basis. Hunting Party comes to mind, especially if you're using it to get around having a deck full of Curses or something.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #346 on: July 20, 2015, 09:47:26 pm »
+3

Fun fact: "Research" was the original name for Lost Arts. Pathfinding was "Improve". These old names were way better because you could talk about e.g. Researched Smithies and Improved Labs. Lost Artsed Smithies and Pathfound Labs sound awful. Oh well, at least we still have "Trained".
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #347 on: July 21, 2015, 02:12:33 pm »
+1

I like Research. It smoothes the problems of Potion (in a superior fashion to houserules like e.g. 'play at least with 2/3 Alchemy cards') without providing a bonus that is too strong.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #348 on: July 21, 2015, 03:01:20 pm »
+1

I also like Research. It wouldn't surprise me if it had to cost a bit more ($2P or whatever), but the Potion cost is a good way to limit what might otherwise be too strong an effect. And the effect itself is very cool.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #349 on: July 21, 2015, 09:22:44 pm »
+4

I like Research as well.  I love cards that add to reliability.  However, it looks like you can make a Golden Deck with no other Kingdom cards using Potion-Potion-Gold-Gold-Gold.  You can also add a third Potion and Kingdom cards if it's more convenient (e.g., Smithy + Silver x4 + Potion x3, Mystic x2 + Silver x2 + Potion x3, Village + Conspirator x4 + Potion x2, etc.). 

I'm not sure this is necessarily a red flag since most of these take some effort to build (or at least some good trashing to get the right hand in the first place), but I think it's something that should be watched for in playtesting.  If it proves troublesome, you can always kill it by adding a "once per turn" limit, which prevents you from topdecking your Potions (unless, of course, you topdeck only your Potions, which probably isn't terribly useful).  You could still topdeck a stack of Labs or Hunting Parties or other one-card-engine cards, but then you'd still need to draw your Potion regularly.

Interestingly, Research actually has some synergy with Alchemist: use your Potion to topdeck your Alchemists, then use Research to topdeck your Potion.  This is especially useful because in many games you don't have anything to spend your Potion on once the Alchemists are gone, making Research effectively free.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #350 on: July 22, 2015, 01:01:35 am »
+3

I think Research is the best fan event I've seen and possibly the best fan [card or event].  It's such a simple and unique effect, that should be useful in a reasonably often without being too game-changing or a must-buy.

That being said, there is this weird complaint I have about it.  The complaint is, without any other Potion cards, you could get the same effect pretty much by just making it a treasure card costing $4, with the same text (after the +1 buy part).  If there's nothing else to spend the Potion on, since Research costs only a potion and gives you the +buy back, there's no reason to ever not do it if you can, so it basically just means that Potion is a new card that does Research's effect.

I can't explain why that seems like a bad thing to me, but I'd feel better if it was fixed.  It's unfortunate, because it otherwise feels perfect as is, so maybe it's not worth changing.  Probably the easiest solution is to price it at $1P (or higher if you decide that's necessary anyway).  You could also take off the +buy, but I think that's a pretty important part of the event and I don't think it works without it in kingdoms without other potion cards or +buy cards.

The golden deck Erick648 mentioned is something else to think about, but I expect it will be slow to set up most of the time, and the times when you can set it up, there should usually be something better that you can set up faster.  I'd say it's okay, as long as it's not like every Research game ends up being a race to the golden deck.  Like KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge, it's still a race to see who can get there first, and getting there first is still an interesting game that will depend heavily on the kingdom, so it's not like it will ruin games by being possible (and unlike KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge, it's not an insta-win if you get it).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #351 on: July 22, 2015, 02:48:53 am »
+1

The fact that it practically turns Potion into another card in the absence of Potion cost cards is something i'm aware of, and i don't necessarily like that, either. While i'm not sure it has to cost more, i will of course increase the price if that turns out to be necessary. Would solve the issue, as you pointed out. I have one or two other ideas to fix it, but they are not exactly perfect. If all solutions should be worse, i think i can live with it as is.

About the PPGGG hand that buys a Province every turn, i can't believe i never thought of that... I'll have to think about how i can solve this, but once per turn seems reasonable. Sadly it would make a second Potion you draw a dead card :'(
Or i could disable Research from topdecking Potion, which would also make it more different from Scheme. Not too happy with that, though. Maybe "once per turn" is better.

Either way, thank you all so much. I didn't expect so many positive responses at all. :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #352 on: July 22, 2015, 04:49:06 am »
+2

About the PPGGG hand that buys a Province every turn, i can't believe i never thought of that... I'll have to think about how i can solve this, but once per turn seems reasonable. Sadly it would make a second Potion you draw a dead card :'(
Or i could disable Research from topdecking Potion, which would also make it more different from Scheme. Not too happy with that, though. Maybe "once per turn" is better.

Either way, thank you all so much. I didn't expect so many positive responses at all. :)
Don't make any rushed decisions. Let's keep on testing it as-is. Such a Golden deck would not be easy to build and be vulnerable to many attacks. You'd need a board with strong trashing and no attacks and then your Golden deck would still be required to be faster than an engine, if one is available, and straight Big Money. We can look out for such boards but until it happened, please don't remove the crucial parts of the Event.

If Research needs fixing, the order of tweaks I would make would be this:
1. increase cost (e. g. to $1P or $2P);
2. no topdecking Potions;
3. "once per turn" clause, I really dislike that option. Mainly because buying a Potion is a big opportunity cost and if Research was the only Potion card in the Kingdom, it would rarely be worth it, barring single card powerhouses like HP, Lab or Minion stacks.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #353 on: August 01, 2015, 10:34:31 am »
0

Played a game yesterday against Co0kieL0rd. Cards:

Enterprise's Auction and General, my Jeweler and Fountain, Roots & Renewal's Deposit as well as a new card that resembles Co0kie's Robber Knight, Greed's Inquisitor, Baker... And 2 other cards i can't recall. No other draw, relevant attack or Village, that's what i remember.

also the Events Quest and Plan.



My strategy was simply getting as many Jewelers as possible to play a pseudo-Smithy-BM where Jeweler fills out both roles at once (which is basically the point of the card). I wanted to see whether that actually works, and well, for this game it did. I didn't really only gain Jewelers, though, as Fountain was just too nice as an action source to not play several Jewelers - Plan, Quest, Baker and Auction also played a role.

Baker allowed opening Jeweler/Fountain, which also trashed one of my Estates for an Auction. The Auction in turn increased the chance of getting to after playing my Jeweler to buy more of them. The first time i got less than i could buy Plan to put a trashing token on Jeweler, too. Because of Quest, Auction and Jeweler's reaction itself, playing Jeweler blindly was never a problem.

Co0kieL0rd was very tired and wasn't as happy with how he played, missing out several things - for example the fact that he should have wanted a few more Jewelers himself simply because they were draw. I think he got 2 of them. Other than that, he attacked me a bit with Inquisitor, but well, Plan, Auction and Quest made that ignorable. One interesting thing: Auction doesn't really work with Plan nor Quest. Other than that it's pretty good.

In the end i often had turns where i produced ten simply by playing a Jeweler and discarding a few of them. So, the card is strong enough, or at least it seemed so this game. Fountain seemed really strong too, but of course i went for a strategy centered around a single terminal draw and there was a nice target to replace a starting Estate with.

Conclusion? I have no idea. This wasn't the dumb "just get many Jewelers" i was planning to play, simply because there were so many nice support cards. It wasn't the most exciting game of Dominion ever had, though. Either way, i think i'll try the strategy again on a less helpful board, and if it turns out to be strong again, i guess i'll have to change the card. I don't want to do another Minion. But, right now, i'm just glad that it's not as terribly weak as i used to believe.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 10:50:51 am by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #354 on: August 05, 2015, 06:28:25 pm »
+1

Considering an alternate version of Barkeep now that doesn't just let you get incredibly many Barkeeps and nothing else to power up one of them to be super-strong. Here, if you go full Barkeep, your deck will not just stay clear of terminals as with past versions. I hope this will help make the card more interesting and less of a "get as many as you can" race. Nice thing that a price of does: Most trashing attacks can't hit the card (which would be a pretty sad fate to befall the last Barkeep in your deck).



I also mocked up a version at that always drew 2 cards and only put itself on the Mat at the end, but i didn't feel it really solved the main problems Barkeep has. The also is just a quick thing, though. Not tested at all.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #355 on: August 10, 2015, 09:03:16 am »
0

Thinking about my last version of Barkeep, i am now pondering whether "calling" the card would be better. The wording, as it is currently, means this:

1. I draw a card (and put my Barkeep on the Mat)
2. I can discard any number of barkeeps (including the played one)
3. I draw cards equal to the number of Barkeeps
4. I can technically draw Barkeeps i discarded before, including the one i played.

Now, i'm wondering, whether there's an elegant way to get to this:
1. I draw a card (and put the Barkeep on the Mat)
2. I can call (put in play) one Barkeep at a time, drawing a card.
3. After each Barkeep, i can decide to stop calling them.

Versions that don't do what i want:
Quote
+1 Card
Put this on your Tavern Mat. Call any number of Barkeeps from your Tavern Mat, for +1 Card each.
Problem: Only difference is that called Barkeeps end up in play. I still have to decide how many of them to call before drawing any card but the first, don't i?

Quote
+1 Card
Put this on your Tavern Mat.

When you play a Barkeep, you may call this, for +1 Card.
Problem: I get the +1 Card on the Barkeep i play last, which is confusing and not what i want.

Versions that are a bit clunky:
Quote
+1 Card
Put this on your Tavern Mat. Do this any number of times: Call a Barkeep from your Tavern Mat, for +1 Card.
Problem: Would this mean i can "call" Barkeeps that are not there and still get +1 Card? I think not, but i'm not sure. Not sure whether "Endlessly trying to call Barkeep for no effect" is really an issue.

Quote
+1 Card
Put this on your Tavern Mat.

Directly after resolving a Barkeep, you may call this, for +1 Card.
I really dislike the "resolved" trigger, but i guess it's okay. I also don't think i like that the effect is spelled out under the line instead of above it. Probably the one with the least issues, though(?).

Anybody has another idea how to word this? Input as to which version i should use is equally appreciated.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #356 on: August 10, 2015, 11:31:51 am »
+1

Overall, I liked the version that just stayed on your mat way better. If they go off of your mat, calling is better than discarding, both for tracking and for power-level (not being able to re-draw the ones you discard). And I think the "after resolving" wording is the best, even though it's clunky.

I'm not at all fond of each one being +1 Card. I'd rather have it be +2 Cards one way or the other.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #357 on: August 10, 2015, 11:49:31 am »
+1

I'm honestly not sure how i will make this work. The problem with a version that stays on your Mat is simply that, opportunity cost aside, more Barkeeps are always better than less. There's no point at which you need to stop, and if they are supposed to be okay when shared, people will rush for them to make sure they get a good share. If they are supposed to be good only when you have most of them, well, then they suck. It becomes worse because additional Barkeeps do not increase the amount of terminal space you need, so committing to them is pretty easy.

Also, probably this isn't apparent enough, but with all wordings but the second, you should be able to discard/call the Barkeep you played for an additional card. So, if you have only one of them, it should be a Moat. But maybe none of those ideas is good.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #358 on: August 10, 2015, 02:52:41 pm »
+1

Also, probably this isn't apparent enough, but with all wordings but the second, you should be able to discard/call the Barkeep you played for an additional card. So, if you have only one of them, it should be a Moat.

No, I get it. But somehow +1 Card/+1 Card is different—and seems worse—than +2 Cards. It's more likely that you're going to get only a dead card from each individual Barkeep you call. But if each one called game +2 Cards, then there's a better chance that one of those cards will do you some good.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #359 on: August 10, 2015, 03:31:41 pm »
+2

Also, probably this isn't apparent enough, but with all wordings but the second, you should be able to discard/call the Barkeep you played for an additional card. So, if you have only one of them, it should be a Moat.

No, I get it. But somehow +1 Card/+1 Card is different—and seems worse—than +2 Cards. It's more likely that you're going to get only a dead card from each individual Barkeep you call. But if each one called game +2 Cards, then there's a better chance that one of those cards will do you some good.

I'm very confused by this... isn't +1 Card/+1 Card strictly better than +2 Cards? The only difference is that the first one gives you the option of sticking with just +1 card total, and saving the other for another time.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #360 on: August 10, 2015, 03:33:56 pm »
+1

Also, probably this isn't apparent enough, but with all wordings but the second, you should be able to discard/call the Barkeep you played for an additional card. So, if you have only one of them, it should be a Moat.

No, I get it. But somehow +1 Card/+1 Card is different—and seems worse—than +2 Cards. It's more likely that you're going to get only a dead card from each individual Barkeep you call. But if each one called game +2 Cards, then there's a better chance that one of those cards will do you some good.

I'm very confused by this... isn't +1 Card/+1 Card strictly better than +2 Cards? The only difference is that the first one gives you the option of sticking with just +1 card total, and saving the other for another time.

Yes, it's strictly better, but I think it feels worse. The more cards you draw at once, the more likely you get something good out of it. If you call a Barkeep for a single card and it's e.g. a dead Action, you're kicking yourself.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #361 on: August 10, 2015, 03:58:36 pm »
0

If i understand right you think i should increase the amount of cards a Barkeep gives when called. Hmm. Obviously i can't let it give +1 Card on play and +2 on call (or vice versa), because that basically makes Barkeeps behave like Smithies (if i can't call after putting them on the Mat, n Barkeeps are still n-1 Smithies).

So i assume you are talking about giving nothing on play except putting them on your Tavern Mat. I guess that works. What's nice is that it doesn't draw dead. I wouldn't even think it's strictly better.  With the +2 Cards/+0 Cards variant, i can save up Barkeeps for one good turn. Tactician shows how good it can be to waste one turn for the sake of another.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 04:00:34 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #362 on: August 10, 2015, 04:00:22 pm »
+1

Also, probably this isn't apparent enough, but with all wordings but the second, you should be able to discard/call the Barkeep you played for an additional card. So, if you have only one of them, it should be a Moat.

No, I get it. But somehow +1 Card/+1 Card is different—and seems worse—than +2 Cards. It's more likely that you're going to get only a dead card from each individual Barkeep you call. But if each one called game +2 Cards, then there's a better chance that one of those cards will do you some good.

I'm very confused by this... isn't +1 Card/+1 Card strictly better than +2 Cards? The only difference is that the first one gives you the option of sticking with just +1 card total, and saving the other for another time.

Yes, it's strictly better, but I think it feels worse. The more cards you draw at once, the more likely you get something good out of it. If you call a Barkeep for a single card and it's e.g. a dead Action, you're kicking yourself.


I agree, so why not give Barkeep +2 Cards back, give you the option to call additional ones for +1 Card each, and have it cost ?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 04:02:34 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #363 on: August 10, 2015, 04:17:13 pm »
0

Also, probably this isn't apparent enough, but with all wordings but the second, you should be able to discard/call the Barkeep you played for an additional card. So, if you have only one of them, it should be a Moat.

No, I get it. But somehow +1 Card/+1 Card is different—and seems worse—than +2 Cards. It's more likely that you're going to get only a dead card from each individual Barkeep you call. But if each one called game +2 Cards, then there's a better chance that one of those cards will do you some good.

I'm very confused by this... isn't +1 Card/+1 Card strictly better than +2 Cards? The only difference is that the first one gives you the option of sticking with just +1 card total, and saving the other for another time.

Yes, it's strictly better, but I think it feels worse. The more cards you draw at once, the more likely you get something good out of it. If you call a Barkeep for a single card and it's e.g. a dead Action, you're kicking yourself.


I agree, so why not give Barkeep +2 Cards back, give you the option to call additional ones for +1 Card each, and have it cost ?

I think this seems allright. But if i can call Barkeeps after playing them, they are strictly better than Smithy. So i have to ensure that calling happens before putting Barkeeps on the Mat. Calling on play means i get the +1 Card before the +2 Cards of playing it, which i think isn't very pretty or intuitive. Calling on resolving means i can call the played Barkeep (see above). So, i need something like:

Barkeep,
+2 Cards
Call any number of Barkeeps, for +1 Card each. Put this on your Tavern Mat.

If you own two Barkeeps, you basically own a (more complicated) Smithy. Not sure i like that, but well, i guess it's balanced. If you own 3 Barkeeps, they are 2 Smithies, or 1 Moat and 1 Hunting Grounds, whatever you prefer. Not sure that's balanced, but i feel a version where just "play one, call one" is a common scenario isn't that exciting. A version that draws 0 or 2 cards avoids this by making it more attractive to bundle the drawing power in one big thing.

But maybe i should just playtest this a bit and see what happens. I might have a certain way of playing in mind while another is the much more plausible thing to happen. I just wouldn't like Barkeep to be a complicated Smithy surrogate.

Edit: About the version (that can call itself, i assume), that would be another option, yes. Though i don't know how attractive it is to save that third card to become a 4th later on. And how hesistant people are to put a on their Tavern Mat that might miss the shuffle.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 04:21:23 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #364 on: August 10, 2015, 04:43:56 pm »
+1

I like it this way at 3, because you could then open with two of them and possibly save them up for later.  I don't know how many I would buy at 5.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #365 on: August 14, 2015, 06:30:18 pm »
+1

Still not sure what to do with Barkeep, but for now, here's another idea. You might recall the top part from Aqueduct, which was rather strong for even with an "if you do" after the discard. It was also rather boring. So, as i had no Guilds card yet, but a card to rebalance and a concept to try myself at (underpay), i just decided to throw all these factors together and see what i would get:



For a short while i considered to let it give coin tokens to opponents, but that took more place than i was willing to use.

In other news, Meadow got a new picture, hooray!



And, yes, i'm starting to credit artists. Probably should have done that, like, the beginning. Sorry artists. I hope you are okay with me using your amazing art, and i hope listing a website where people can get it/contact you is in your interest. Will try to find the sources of the other images i used soon.

Edit: I also changed Meadow to be "on gain" and Hunter to "look at" the top 3 cards. Hunter stays on buy to make getting them back less simple with gainers.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 08:44:55 pm by Asper »
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #366 on: August 15, 2015, 03:17:18 am »
+1

I like your new concept for Town Hall and I would like to see if it's balanced so we've got to test that soon. Did you write "underpay" instead of overpay in the text above the image on purpose?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #367 on: August 15, 2015, 05:12:40 am »
0

I like your new concept for Town Hall and I would like to see if it's balanced so we've got to test that soon. Did you write "underpay" instead of overpay in the text above the image on purpose?

Thanks :)

The idea was to make a powerful card available for less than the balanced price and punish people for paying less. It's basically $6-. I just felt expressing it in overpay was better for avoiding new rules.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #368 on: August 19, 2015, 03:52:58 pm »
+2

Some small news:

I decided to have a take at GeeJo's "Gambling Den". His original version used a die, and i instead use the Harvest wording. Obviously credit for the idea goes to him, but i'm hesistant to spam his thread with versions of the card. So, expect that here. 6 cards at were much too strong, so now it's 5 at . If that's weak, i'd much rather decrease the price than buff the card reveal.





Fountain now doesn't trash cards anymore. The reason is to remove the pile control from it, which wasn't part of its concept.





I also have two different approaches to Barkeep that i want to test, but there isn't much to say about them for now.

Stand turned
Strand tune
Stray tuna
Stay tuned.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #369 on: August 19, 2015, 04:03:02 pm »
+2

Mill is really weak - compare workshop and Harvest. I doubt it would be good even at $2.

Re: Fountain, pile control cards are often quite fun. Why not just let it have that extra facet to it?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #370 on: August 19, 2015, 04:14:12 pm »
+7

If it's "I buy a Fountain, trashing a Province, gaining a Province" that bothers you, just make Fountain gain a different card.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #371 on: August 19, 2015, 04:23:44 pm »
+3

Mill is really weak - compare workshop and Harvest. I doubt it would be good even at $2.

Re: Fountain, pile control cards are often quite fun. Why not just let it have that extra facet to it?

I playtested Mill at and revealing 6 cards. The cycling was insane, especially early in the game, where 6 cards are basically your deck. Playing Mill the first time usually meant revealing Copper, Estate and your other opening buy (unless you drew it in hand with Mill), allowing you to gain another Mill. Or you could just play Mill as a Chancellor in case your other buy was a nonterminal (for example Silver) and try again after you bought a card. All in all, the cycling made this much, much better than Workshop for building an engine, and gaining more cards helped make Mill stronger and stronger. I might decrease the price back to in case this is too weak, but the reveal of 5 cards will stay. I admit i might have overdone it though when i both increased the price and lowered the reveal.

The problem is that, unlike Salvager, Fountain doesn't cost an action and doesn't need to be in your hand. You can just do your turn, draw, do whatever you want, oops, i only got this time, let's cut the game short then. I see that there's one thing that speaks for keeping it with trashing, and that's simplicity. Maybe that reason is good enough. It certainly doesn't need it to be a strong enough card, though.


If it's "I buy a Fountain, trashing a Province, gaining a Province" that bothers you, just make Fountain gain a different card.

That's a really nice idea. I think it would have to be "differently named". Thanks :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #372 on: August 19, 2015, 04:32:33 pm »
+2

Usually I'm in the camp of "use the simplest phrasing and if it introduces quirks then so be it". But in this case, I agree with Asper that Fountain shouldn't let you effectively trash Provinces from the Supply. I like pacovf's suggestion.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #373 on: September 01, 2015, 02:16:26 pm »
0

Update:

Mill's price has been decreased to . Looks like i overdid it when i both increased the price and nerfed the effect. This should be fine now.



Fountain now gives you a differently named card for the card you trash. Thanks again for the suggestion, pacovf.



Town Hall doesn't really work as intended. It's just too good with gainers or too bad otherwise. I can't really balance it like that. Probably it would work if the card was good enough to make its lower end , but that's getting somewhere else entirely. I have an idea to fix it, but i don't really think it's the best option.



I decided to give my fix for Spy a try. Here's how it looks:



It's about as weak for attacking, especially once you revealed a junk card, but it's a lot more useful to yourself, which makes playing it much more satisfying. Still doesn't make Spy, or Assassin here, a star. Anyhow, if you'd like to try it, here the card is with art that differentiates it from original Spy. It's not strictly better, so technically you can use both.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #374 on: September 01, 2015, 02:33:46 pm »
+2

It's about as weak for attacking, especially once you revealed a junk card, but it's a lot more useful to yourself, which makes playing it much more satisfying. Still doesn't make Spy, or Assassin here, a star. Anyhow, if you'd like to try it, here the card is with art that differentiates it from original Spy. It's not strictly better, so technically you can use both.

I swear I have said this before, but apparently I haven't said it in this thread, so here goes:

The biggest problem with Spy is not that it's weak, but that it's super slow to resolve. It's a cheap cantrip you can load up on, and each time you play it, you make a decision per player. Assassin is worse in this regard, because at least with Spy you can tell players to keep putting back their Estate or whatever. There was a card in Enterprise with Assassin's attack; I held onto it for way too long. Eventually I realized that it was slowing games down way more than it was adding gameplay.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #375 on: September 01, 2015, 03:43:51 pm »
+1

It's about as weak for attacking, especially once you revealed a junk card, but it's a lot more useful to yourself, which makes playing it much more satisfying. Still doesn't make Spy, or Assassin here, a star. Anyhow, if you'd like to try it, here the card is with art that differentiates it from original Spy. It's not strictly better, so technically you can use both.

I swear I have said this before, but apparently I haven't said it in this thread, so here goes:

The biggest problem with Spy is not that it's weak, but that it's super slow to resolve. It's a cheap cantrip you can load up on, and each time you play it, you make a decision per player. Assassin is worse in this regard, because at least with Spy you can tell players to keep putting back their Estate or whatever. There was a card in Enterprise with Assassin's attack; I held onto it for way too long. Eventually I realized that it was slowing games down way more than it was adding gameplay.

You have, allthough you didn't mention that you actually tried the effect out before. I figured that you were talking hypothetical and decided to try it out. It didn't feel that bad to me when i did so last night, but i take it you know what you are talking about. It's not an actual "Asper's card" either way, as it isn't an original concept. So i don't have plans for fixing this up or expanding on it further.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #376 on: October 03, 2015, 07:18:54 am »
+7

I admit it, i haven't had many good ideas lately. Town Hall doesn't work and is pretty lame, Assassin is just Spy, Mill is nice, but not really my idea. *sigh*

Either way, here are two little Guilds-y ideas:

 

Edit: Renamed Sheriff. Tried to avoid that, but 3 themes (name, picture, tokens) are just one too many. And Miscreant Tokens sounds silly.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 07:54:16 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #377 on: October 03, 2015, 09:47:24 am »
+3

Sheriff is a curser which can only curse so many times. It would be okay to overpay because an average Witch curses about 3 times (please correct me if I'm wrong). Afterwards it's just a terminal Silver which is cosidered worse than a Witch that doesn't curse anymore. Buying subsequent Sheriffs will often seem like a bad idea although buying a late Sheriff for , if you expect it to curse only once before the Curse pile runs out, has a low opportunity cost which is good. Unfortunately, Sheriffs that have done their job make poor targets for trash-for-benefit. Most other cursers are probably better. So all in all, Sheriff is a relatively weak card but it has a unique and interesting design and another application of the overpay mechanic is always welcome. I like it.

Conserve enables players to convert every they can spare in a turn into a coin token. Usually you wouldn't do this more than once a turn because otherwise you could have bought a card for . It might be very interesting in the endgame though, when -cards are useless to you and 2 coin tokens would give you the chance to score another Province next turn. So this event might totally work out.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 01:27:51 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #378 on: October 04, 2015, 12:52:38 pm »
0

Actually, i figured that in the presence of certain $5 cards, Conserve might be bought twice for $4 on your first opening turn to enable getting the $5 on the second. Felt Conserve would have a huge impact on most boards, but i might be wrong.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #379 on: October 04, 2015, 02:02:43 pm »
+1

You could also buy one for and get the -cost next turn on /, (/ is possible as well). The opening options are similar to Baker but with the disadvantage that you can't buy a second card.
The event, other than the overpay version in the Guilds outtakes has the advantage that you could make it once per turn if it turns out to be too strong (with the disadvantage that it would make openings swingier, / into a would still work while / into a doesn't.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #380 on: October 04, 2015, 06:10:50 pm »
0

Just realized the empty coin symbol i used on Sheriff isn't in line with official overpay. Will fix this when i create the next mockup.

Also i think a "Once per turn" restriction wouldn't be too harsh if it wasn't for the opening. I liked that 3/4 and 4/3 were equal.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 06:12:55 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #381 on: October 04, 2015, 08:48:45 pm »
+2

Just realized the empty coin symbol i used on Sheriff isn't in line with official overpay. Will fix this when i create the next mockup.

Also i think a "Once per turn" restriction wouldn't be too harsh if it wasn't for the opening. I liked that 3/4 and 4/3 were equal.

Would it be better to make only the +buy part once per turn? 
Quote
Conserve
Cost $2 - Event
Take a coin token.  If this is the first time you buy Conserve this turn, +1 buy.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #382 on: October 05, 2015, 02:44:57 am »
+1

I agree that restriction might be enough, you usually don't have that many spare buys and at the same time buys to spare to gain coin tokens.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #383 on: October 05, 2015, 06:11:42 am »
+1

I like limiting only the + buy. This way you can get up to two tokens, or one token and a card. Still, i haven't tried it without restriction yet, so let's see how that goes. If $15 turns with only a single buy turn out to be too good thanks to Conserve, i'll try the suggested version.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #384 on: October 05, 2015, 08:39:52 am »
+1

Asper, could you please share your Event template? Or is it already somewhere out here? The images are pretty cool.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #385 on: October 05, 2015, 11:40:24 am »
+1

Asper, could you please share your Event template? Or is it already somewhere out here? The images are pretty cool.

My Event template is based on LastFootnote's template which is based on Voltaire's. I suppose both wouldn't mind me sharing it, as after all, the last guy LF gave it to was pretty shady allready. You'll have to wait until later today, though.

Edit: Just to explain the joke, i'm of course referring to myself.

Edit 2: Sent you a PM. Also, thanks for saying the images are cool. Of course they aren't mine, so credit goes to the artists.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 02:48:28 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #386 on: October 27, 2015, 05:27:08 pm »
0

Played a game with Conserve and Sheriff today (thanks, Co0kieL0rd).

Conserve in its current state is terrible. We tried to play a normal game of Dominion, but it soon became apparent that buying only a bunch of Conserves was quite often the only sensible thing to do, even when you could afford a good card. It was dominating the game in an un-fun way.

Sheriff was much better. Co0kieL0rd pointed out that because you HAVE to spend the token, there's no backing out if part of your opponents revealed Moat, which keeps it from being political in that situation. Either way, i like it better as mandatory - it won't matter often and is more simple. Sheriff was fun.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #387 on: October 27, 2015, 05:57:12 pm »
+2

I like the idea of Sheriff... but isn't it almost automatic to open double Sheriff? Handing out 2 curses until turn 4 is just so strong. I guess that's not as big of a problem as you can do that even with 5/2, but it does seem a tad boring.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #388 on: October 28, 2015, 10:23:56 am »
0

I like the idea of Sheriff... but isn't it almost automatic to open double Sheriff? Handing out 2 curses until turn 4 is just so strong. I guess that's not as big of a problem as you can do that even with 5/2, but it does seem a tad boring.

I honestly don't know.
You will be able to deal out two Curses before shuffle 4, but you'll also end up with two terminal Silvers eventually. On the other hand, i never tried it out. I wanted to write "Why would you get a Sheriff for 5 when you could have a Witch?", but of course, in that case the second Sheriff for $2 might be better - it just harms your opponents faster (allthough less long). So, i'm really not sure.
Either way, as i'm the guy who always complains why nobody tried stupid "Just buy Rebuild and Duchies" when playtesting, i think you make a very good point bringing this up. Will definitely try out a double-Sheriff next time i playtest it.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #389 on: October 28, 2015, 10:34:12 am »
+1

Sheriff sounds pretty cool. I'll try it out sometime soon. Have you already thought about how you could utilize the tax token for a different card aswell?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #390 on: October 28, 2015, 11:27:16 am »
+1

Either way, as i'm the guy who always complains why nobody tried stupid "Just buy Rebuild and Duchies" when playtesting, i think you make a very good point bringing this up.

This is neither here nor there, but I'm already kicking myself, worrying that Warrior might end up making games awful. Wish I'd tried buying just Pages; I was already worried that that might be the right move too often.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #391 on: October 28, 2015, 12:23:08 pm »
+2

I like the idea of Sheriff... but isn't it almost automatic to open double Sheriff? Handing out 2 curses until turn 4 is just so strong. I guess that's not as big of a problem as you can do that even with 5/2, but it does seem a tad boring.

I too like the idea of a "limited uses" card. (We could call it "Freemium". You get a sucky terminal silver for free, but if you want the cool curser you have to pay a membership fee. Only one coin per curse!).

Maybe pricing it 3+ could be an ok nerf? It's a Curser, so it probably wouldn't obsolete it (people are still quite happy to buy self-junking silver that can ever deal out only a single curse, and that one costs 5$). :)
And making it strictly inferior (at 3$) to other 3$ terminal silvers should not be a problem, because, you know, Masterpiece.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 12:31:38 pm by Accatitippi »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #392 on: October 29, 2015, 08:28:18 am »
+1

I like the idea of Sheriff... but isn't it almost automatic to open double Sheriff? Handing out 2 curses until turn 4 is just so strong. I guess that's not as big of a problem as you can do that even with 5/2, but it does seem a tad boring.

I too like the idea of a "limited uses" card. (We could call it "Freemium". You get a sucky terminal silver for free, but if you want the cool curser you have to pay a membership fee. Only one coin per curse!).

Maybe pricing it 3+ could be an ok nerf? It's a Curser, so it probably wouldn't obsolete it (people are still quite happy to buy self-junking silver that can ever deal out only a single curse, and that one costs 5$). :)
And making it strictly inferior (at 3$) to other 3$ terminal silvers should not be a problem, because, you know, Masterpiece.

I really don't think Sheriff needs to cost more than . We should continue playtesting it at and see how that works out before Asper makes any adjustments.

I like the idea of Sheriff... but isn't it almost automatic to open double Sheriff? Handing out 2 curses until turn 4 is just so strong. I guess that's not as big of a problem as you can do that even with 5/2, but it does seem a tad boring.

Opening double Sheriff bears the danger of terminal collision, though, which usually isn't so bad if it wasn't for Sheriff's weak performance as a late-game card.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #393 on: October 29, 2015, 11:19:51 am »
+2

Quote from: Asper link=topic=92 1.msg535767#msg535767 date=1446042236
Either way, as i'm the guy who always complains why nobody tried stupid "Just buy Rebuild and Duchies" when playtesting, i think you make a very good point bringing this up.

This is neither here nor there, but I'm already kicking myself, worrying that Warrior might end up making games awful. Wish I'd tried buying just Pages; I was already worried that that might be the right move too often.

I'm afraid i allready made an experience that supports your concern, but you probably allready read about that. I mean, you have one cantrip Traveller and an attack that gets harsher the more Travellers you played, so a strategy that just tries to max that out should be something to try at least once.

I hope you realize that it's not your fault, though. After all, Donald designed the card, and i feel he should have seen that himself. Also, he who has not ever missed something shall throw the first stone. I'm designing my own game currently, as mentioned before, and i'm rather anxious that something like that might happen to me. And, you know, it might. Obvious to one is absurd to another and i can just hope to be lucky with people spotting the problems i didn't see. I'm sure you did a lot to improve Adventures and shouldn't blame it on you if something doesn't turn out perfect. You know, there are also other people, all of which apparently didn't think of it, either. One human can only do so much to improve things.
/speech
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The secret history of Asper's Cards
« Reply #394 on: October 29, 2015, 11:25:08 am »
+1

Sheriff sounds pretty cool. I'll try it out sometime soon. Have you already thought about how you could utilize the tax token for a different card aswell?

I was considering using Embargo tokens, actually. You know, taxes, embargos... Originally i wanted to call the card "Toller" or something like that, and using Embargo tokens made sense for that. Sadly, there are no good Toller images, and so they became tax tokens. In other words, no plans currently. Probably they could have been Trade Tokens, now that i think of it. In a way, Sheriff is a Guilds/Enterprise fan card ;)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #395 on: October 29, 2015, 12:19:40 pm »
+1

Not fully following the thread, but how about this for Barkeep?

+2 Cards.
Put this on your Tavern Mat.

When you put another Barkeep on your Tavern Mat, you may call this, for +1 Card.

It reinforces the idea of a shift change, prevents a Barkeep from calling itself to be a Smithy, and it doesn't require you to use a "resolve" trigger.  It also interacts with any fan card that puts other cards in the Tavern.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #396 on: October 29, 2015, 12:50:03 pm »
0

Not fully following the thread, but how about this for Barkeep?

+2 Cards.
Put this on your Tavern Mat.

When you put another Barkeep on your Tavern Mat, you may call this, for +1 Card.

It reinforces the idea of a shift change, prevents a Barkeep from calling itself to be a Smithy, and it doesn't require you to use a "resolve" trigger.  It also interacts with any fan card that puts other cards in the Tavern.

Thanks, allthough i don't have my spirits very high about Barkeep currently... It just didn't play so well until now. Either way, it's a good idea for how to avoid the "resolve" trigger and i'll keep it in mind for the future.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #397 on: November 29, 2015, 07:10:18 am »
+2

News that are olds

Reverted some changes:
  • Homunculus now doesn't give a buy on buy again. It's good enough allready and the absence makes the opening more strategic.
  • Road doesn't require you to discard a card anymore to be returned to your hand (it didn't seem that strong recently).
  • And here's another try for Conserve (ignore the unfitting name in this case. It's more like discount/present/change):
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #398 on: November 29, 2015, 02:14:17 pm »
+2

News that are olds

Reverted some changes:
  • Homunculus now doesn't give a buy on buy again. It's good enough allready and the absence makes the opening more strategic.
  • Road doesn't require you to discard a card anymore to be returned to your hand (it didn't seem that strong recently).
  • And here's another try for Conserve (ignore the unfitting name in this case. It's more like discount/present/change):


Isn't this version of Conserve strictly better than every $4 cost card ever?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #399 on: November 29, 2015, 02:18:38 pm »
+2

I like the changes to Homunculus and Road. Although I don't think it'll break the game to give away a free Coin token with every $4 card, I don't love this version of Conserve.
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tristan

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #400 on: November 29, 2015, 02:22:16 pm »
+1

Isn't this version of Conserve strictly better than every $4 cost card ever?
Better than many, yes, and I would agree that it is fairly strong as you will probably use it for a few times in most games. But there are quite some 4$ cards (Noble Brigand and Port are the ones that come to mind) with "when you buy this" effects that are not triggered by this event. And if you compare it with other gain events like Alms or Seaway it does not appear to be overpowered.
I think that the previous version of Conserve is more interesting though.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #401 on: November 29, 2015, 05:11:45 pm »
+1

Isn't this version of Conserve strictly better than every $4 cost card ever?

In the sense that you will almost always buy Conserve rather than a $4 cost card, yes.  But I don't think that inherently makes it bad design in this case.  Usually the problem with cards being strictly better than other cards is that when they appear together, the worse card is never bought or gained (outside of edge cases like Swindler/Possession).  With Conserve though, you still play with whatever $4 cards you would normally get, now you just also get an extra little bonus for it.  Like Summon, it wouldn't be bad for it to be amazingly powerful, because it doesn't discourage you from buying other cards.
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Gubump

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #402 on: November 29, 2015, 10:04:06 pm »
+2

Isn't this version of Conserve strictly better than every $4 cost card ever?

In the sense that you will almost always buy Conserve rather than a $4 cost card, yes.  But I don't think that inherently makes it bad design in this case.  Usually the problem with cards being strictly better than other cards is that when they appear together, the worse card is never bought or gained (outside of edge cases like Swindler/Possession).  With Conserve though, you still play with whatever $4 cards you would normally get, now you just also get an extra little bonus for it.  Like Summon, it wouldn't be bad for it to be amazingly powerful, because it doesn't discourage you from buying other cards.

I disagree, since this makes it so that there's almost no reason not to buy it if you have exactly $4.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #403 on: November 29, 2015, 10:50:30 pm »
+2

Isn't this version of Conserve strictly better than every $4 cost card ever?

In the sense that you will almost always buy Conserve rather than a $4 cost card, yes.  But I don't think that inherently makes it bad design in this case.  Usually the problem with cards being strictly better than other cards is that when they appear together, the worse card is never bought or gained (outside of edge cases like Swindler/Possession).  With Conserve though, you still play with whatever $4 cards you would normally get, now you just also get an extra little bonus for it.  Like Summon, it wouldn't be bad for it to be amazingly powerful, because it doesn't discourage you from buying other cards.

I disagree, since this makes it so that there's almost no reason not to buy it if you have exactly $4.

But why is that a problem?  I've already explained why it's not a problem in this case.

Playing with the new version of Conserve is basically like playing with a special rule that says "During your buy phase, if you have exactly $4, take a coin token (that can't be spent this turn)".  I don't see how playing some games with this rule makes the game less fun or interesting.  It's not like it trivializes the decision of what to do with $4, since you still have to figure out what card to get after you buy the event.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #404 on: November 30, 2015, 12:02:35 am »
+2

Isn't this version of Conserve strictly better than every $4 cost card ever?

In the sense that you will almost always buy Conserve rather than a $4 cost card, yes.  But I don't think that inherently makes it bad design in this case.  Usually the problem with cards being strictly better than other cards is that when they appear together, the worse card is never bought or gained (outside of edge cases like Swindler/Possession).  With Conserve though, you still play with whatever $4 cards you would normally get, now you just also get an extra little bonus for it.  Like Summon, it wouldn't be bad for it to be amazingly powerful, because it doesn't discourage you from buying other cards.

I disagree, since this makes it so that there's almost no reason not to buy it if you have exactly $4.

But why is that a problem?  I've already explained why it's not a problem in this case.

Playing with the new version of Conserve is basically like playing with a special rule that says "During your buy phase, if you have exactly $4, take a coin token (that can't be spent this turn)".  I don't see how playing some games with this rule makes the game less fun or interesting.  It's not like it trivializes the decision of what to do with $4, since you still have to figure out what card to get after you buy the event.

Okay, you make a good argument. I agree with you, now.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #405 on: November 30, 2015, 06:26:07 am »
0

Hm, i see this version isn't super popular, but it's interesting to see it started some discussion.

Scott_pilgrim got my idea behind it pretty well. Conserve is a game altering event, similar to Alms or Quest. I don't think "strictly better" applies for events that are not capable of replacing cards entirely. The rule it creates is "If you aquire a cheap card, gain a coin token". I considered costing this at $5, but it didn't seem like something you'd buy. You want your coin tokens to be able to buy something decent, you don't want to skip something decent to get a coin token. Allthough, with this version, you still can. If you hit $5, you can still get Worker's Village and a coin token instead of a $5. You might not often want to, but you can.

That said, this is just an idea thrown in there. I'm not very active creating fan cards currently, so i figured i could just as well post it. The original Conserve was cleaner, but incredibly dominant, sadly.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #406 on: November 30, 2015, 06:44:40 am »
0

Idea to remove the requirement of reaching $4 and to allow on-buy abilities: Travelling Fair style.

Bargain, $0/$1
+1 Buy
Once per turn: When you buy a card costing up to $4 this turn, gain a coin token.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #407 on: November 30, 2015, 07:04:44 am »
+1

Idea to remove the requirement of reaching $4 and to allow on-buy abilities: Travelling Fair style.

Bargain, $0/$1
+1 Buy
Once per turn: When you buy a card costing up to $4 this turn, gain a coin token.

But this would make Conserve/Bargain even easier and more trivial to use. With the requirement of reaching $4, at least you have to put in some work to use this powerful ability. I like it to have some restrictions. It's still not a very fancy event but it should work out.
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Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #408 on: January 05, 2016, 06:02:37 pm »
0

Decided to simply make Research unable to put Potions on the deck. Yes, this makes it impossible to save the Potion for your next hand, but that isn't such a good strategy either way normally.




Also, an old idea i talked about a few times in the past and recently suggested again in another thread:

Speculation, $4, Event
Put your Speculation token on an Action supply pile. When another player plays a card from that pile for the first time during his turn, take a coin token.

I decided against the obvious choice of giving out cards - if the event counts any play, it can stack too much, and if it only ever gives one, if's just not too interesting or good.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 06:05:31 pm by Asper »
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #409 on: January 05, 2016, 06:04:32 pm »
+1

Research seems actually overpowered. If you have a Lab/Hunting Party/Governer/City stack, you purchase a Potion for ultimate reliability.

And this event effectively turns Labs into Alchemists, which I actually like.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #410 on: January 22, 2016, 02:38:22 am »
0

Played a few games against Co0kieL0rd recently:

The first had Hospital and Forager. I got quite a few points by playing this combination, and CL resigned when i was about 16 to 20 VP tokens in the lead already. I assume this should be one of the best combos with Hospital, though: Forager needs to be fed junk and lowers your handsize - Hospital provides junk and increases your handsize. At the same time you get points. The board also had Alms, which made sure i could pick up either component even after aggressive trashing. It certainly made Hospital look very strong, but feel it was a combo and doesn't speak for its strength with other trashers - it should also work with Chapel and Forge, but that's about it, i think.

On another note, Paddock will leave us. I kind of like it, but it never gets used. It's just not strong enough. The last game we used it it was a key card, curiously, but in that game Gold was really unattractive, Ferry allowed cost reduction, an engine was unavailable and the other $5s were VP cards. It just doesn't prove anything, Paddock is still lame.

I will also remove Tribunal. The attack seemed clever for a while, but the things i found necessary to balance it make it look complicated and weird. I'm also not sure the attack works that good. Maybe i should have made it so only the first play gives you a choice. Meh.

Nouveau Riche hasn't aged well either. I appreciate if some people like it, but i'm not one of them anymore. I'll remove it for now and see whether i stumble over a fix.

Research will lose the "no Potion" clause and become "once per turn". Don't know why i didn't decide for that before.

I'll also look for another image for Alley.

Also, wow, have you checked out that cool new fan set, Seasons?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #411 on: January 22, 2016, 03:56:14 pm »
+4

Update Madness!


Research is now "Once per turn"


Alley got a pretty, new picture.


Sheriff now uses Sheriff tokens. I mean, i liked the flavour of tax tokens, but we all know you bribe him into getting others in trouble, anyway.


Cosmetical change: "Two" is now "2".


Sultan now only puts the card on top of your deck and costs $3. Not tested, though.


Paddock is gone, here's Artisan which replaces it. Not tested, might be too strong.


Jeweler is now a terminal Gold which can be used as a Silver in case nothing else goes. The +card version was a bit too strong, and the similarity of the effects means you now get it as payload - not as a single-card strategy or expensive Smithy.

Taxation is the new Coin Token event. Now you know why Sheriff lost tax tokens.
Removed Taxation, as it's far too similar to convolucid's Levy.

Also, added artist names.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 09:42:52 am by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #412 on: January 23, 2016, 02:40:47 pm »
+4

Maybe somebody has use for this TS-template.


« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 07:53:10 am by Asper »
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Accatitippi

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #413 on: January 23, 2016, 04:49:37 pm »
+1

Maybe it's been covered already in the other pages, but have you considered/tried Sheriff with vanilla Coin Tokens?
It definitely would give the card more flexibility, but maybe break it, on the other hand. (I can see players buying sheriffs only for the overpay).
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #414 on: January 23, 2016, 05:04:11 pm »
+1

Maybe it's been covered already in the other pages, but have you considered/tried Sheriff with vanilla Coin Tokens?
It definitely would give the card more flexibility, but maybe break it, on the other hand. (I can see players buying sheriffs only for the overpay).

Yes, i thought about that - after all, Guilds has Coin tokens. But it deviated too much from the card's concept, and it seemed like a lot of trouble to get it to work without making it broken or lame. So, i decided not to.

I did try a similar thing as an Event, and even though it looked very nice and clean at first, it was too game changing and mostly a no-brainer. Maybe an overpay effect IS the way to go here, but Sheriff is not the card to put it on. Which shouldn't stop you from using coin tokens to track the bribe money you paid your Sheriffs in the way Pirate Ship or Trade Route use them ;)
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Accatitippi

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #415 on: January 24, 2016, 05:49:19 am »
+1

Maybe it's been covered already in the other pages, but have you considered/tried Sheriff with vanilla Coin Tokens?
It definitely would give the card more flexibility, but maybe break it, on the other hand. (I can see players buying sheriffs only for the overpay).

Yes, i thought about that - after all, Guilds has Coin tokens. But it deviated too much from the card's concept, and it seemed like a lot of trouble to get it to work without making it broken or lame. So, i decided not to.

I did try a similar thing as an Event, and even though it looked very nice and clean at first, it was too game changing and mostly a no-brainer. Maybe an overpay effect IS the way to go here, but Sheriff is not the card to put it on. Which shouldn't stop you from using coin tokens to track the bribe money you paid your Sheriffs in the way Pirate Ship or Trade Route use them ;)

I see.  :)

About Jeweler, I think you probably have to specify "discard from your hand" to avoid misunderstandings about whether one can discard it from play.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #416 on: January 24, 2016, 07:24:01 am »
0

Maybe it's been covered already in the other pages, but have you considered/tried Sheriff with vanilla Coin Tokens?
It definitely would give the card more flexibility, but maybe break it, on the other hand. (I can see players buying sheriffs only for the overpay).

Yes, i thought about that - after all, Guilds has Coin tokens. But it deviated too much from the card's concept, and it seemed like a lot of trouble to get it to work without making it broken or lame. So, i decided not to.

I did try a similar thing as an Event, and even though it looked very nice and clean at first, it was too game changing and mostly a no-brainer. Maybe an overpay effect IS the way to go here, but Sheriff is not the card to put it on. Which shouldn't stop you from using coin tokens to track the bribe money you paid your Sheriffs in the way Pirate Ship or Trade Route use them ;)

I see.  :)

About Jeweler, I think you probably have to specify "discard from your hand" to avoid misunderstandings about whether one can discard it from play.

After looking at official cards a bit, i think you are right that clarification would be better. I will change it.
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tristan

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #417 on: January 24, 2016, 08:23:37 am »
+1

Artisan might be too strong. Then again it just gains a 3$ card and we all had our Hermit games in which we did not want to gain a 3$ card in the middle game.
Taxation is pretty interesting. It is similiar to convolucid's Levy and its strength obviously depends positively upon the number of players.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #418 on: January 24, 2016, 09:41:36 am »
0

Artisan might be too strong. Then again it just gains a 3$ card and we all had our Hermit games in which we did not want to gain a 3$ card in the middle game.
Taxation is pretty interesting. It is similiar to convolucid's Levy and its strength obviously depends positively upon the number of players.

Wow, can't believe i forgot about Levy - i even posted in that thread. Guess that means i can just as well scrap Taxation. I mean, i didn't test it yet, but Levy probably is the better implementation anyhow.
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tristan

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #419 on: January 25, 2016, 02:59:22 am »
+1

Artisan might be too strong. Then again it just gains a 3$ card and we all had our Hermit games in which we did not want to gain a 3$ card in the middle game.
Taxation is pretty interesting. It is similiar to convolucid's Levy and its strength obviously depends positively upon the number of players.

Wow, can't believe i forgot about Levy - i even posted in that thread. Guess that means i can just as well scrap Taxation. I mean, i didn't test it yet, but Levy probably is the better implementation anyhow.
I think that the difference between buying and playing a card is significant enough to warrant two Events. I also think that your Taxation is easier to playtest as there is only one variant whereas Levy should probably be tested with buy vs. gain, Action cards vs. Action cards / Treasure cards and another player vs. any player.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #420 on: January 25, 2016, 10:48:11 am »
0

Artisan might be too strong. Then again it just gains a 3$ card and we all had our Hermit games in which we did not want to gain a 3$ card in the middle game.
Taxation is pretty interesting. It is similiar to convolucid's Levy and its strength obviously depends positively upon the number of players.

Wow, can't believe i forgot about Levy - i even posted in that thread. Guess that means i can just as well scrap Taxation. I mean, i didn't test it yet, but Levy probably is the better implementation anyhow.
I think that the difference between buying and playing a card is significant enough to warrant two Events. I also think that your Taxation is easier to playtest as there is only one variant whereas Levy should probably be tested with buy vs. gain, Action cards vs. Action cards / Treasure cards and another player vs. any player.

On the other hand, Taxation would have to be tested in games with different player numbers, so i'm not sure it's less work. I'm not sure. Maybe i should give it a shot at least.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #421 on: February 02, 2016, 01:26:50 pm »
+1

Asper,

Nouveau Riche:

Are all those things simultaneous or one after the other?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #422 on: February 02, 2016, 03:09:50 pm »
+2

Asper,

Nouveau Riche:

Are all those things simultaneous or one after the other?

Dear Mr./Ms./Mrs. Healey,
thank you for your interest in our cards. We consider ourselves glad to call you our trusting customer. Sadly, support for Nouveau Riche has ceased since version 6.18 of Asper's cards. We hope you will enjoy our other products.
~Asper's Cards Corporation (Limited)



I hope you don't mind a little joke. The point is, i removed NR from this thread a while ago because i wasn't happy with it. Curiously, there seem to be a few people who kind of like it, and i never know whether i'm wrong on this. So, it's cool to hear someone is interested in it.

Either way, to give you an actual answer: The effects happen one after another, so you can discard and Estate to draw 3 cards, and then discard a Duchy you just drew. After that, you can discard a third VP card to get +1 Action. Simultaneously, this means that you do not automatically get +1 Action after discarding an Estate or Duchy - you have to decide each in order. Of course, you are also free to skip drawing cards, and then discard a Duchy for money, followed by an Estate for +1 Action. In the beginning, you will probably most often discard an Estate, draw 3 cards and then discard another Estate to get some kind of pseudo-Lab. It's interesting i get asked this question relatively often, even though i sticked to Hamlet 's wording. Then again, i'm not sure i immediately got Hamlet when i first saw it, myself.

If you play with it and form an opinion, could you tell me what you think? That would be great. Thanks :)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 03:11:26 pm by Asper »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #423 on: February 02, 2016, 04:29:10 pm »
+1

Asper,

Nouveau Riche:

Are all those things simultaneous or one after the other?

Dear Mr./Ms./Mrs. Healey,
thank you for your interest in our cards. We consider ourselves glad to call you our trusting customer. Sadly, support for Nouveau Riche has ceased since version 6.18 of Asper's cards. We hope you will enjoy our other products.
~Asper's Cards Corporation (Limited)



I hope you don't mind a little joke. The point is, i removed NR from this thread a while ago because i wasn't happy with it. Curiously, there seem to be a few people who kind of like it, and i never know whether i'm wrong on this. So, it's cool to hear someone is interested in it.

Either way, to give you an actual answer: The effects happen one after another, so you can discard and Estate to draw 3 cards, and then discard a Duchy you just drew. After that, you can discard a third VP card to get +1 Action. Simultaneously, this means that you do not automatically get +1 Action after discarding an Estate or Duchy - you have to decide each in order. Of course, you are also free to skip drawing cards, and then discard a Duchy for money, followed by an Estate for +1 Action. In the beginning, you will probably most often discard an Estate, draw 3 cards and then discard another Estate to get some kind of pseudo-Lab. It's interesting i get asked this question relatively often, even though i sticked to Hamlet 's wording. Then again, i'm not sure i immediately got Hamlet when i first saw it, myself.

If you play with it and form an opinion, could you tell me what you think? That would be great. Thanks :)

You should revive it. It's one of my favorites to try it out. That's why I am asking. So it's the strongest possible version, cool.

Drs. Healey will do, btw. Haha.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #424 on: February 02, 2016, 05:33:33 pm »
+3

Okay, so i was thinking: Apparently one of the things i really disliked about Nouveau Riche was the art. I mean, it even has a gap that somehow looks like a scanline... Shudder. Either way, when looking for new art today, i stumbled over a few pics of rich kids, but nothing that spelled out "Nouveau Riche" to me. Then i thought, Nouveau Riche, maybe that doesn't sound medieval anyhow, maybe i should make it "Heir"? It still has that aura of unearned riches, and of aristocracy, that i wanted for a VP-interacting card.

So, how about a name/design change?



Thematic bonus: Inheritance as Estate Interaction now makes total sense. Also, this could be a Baron's heir, or a Duke's. Maybe the Duchess and the Baron had a kid and this guy is who she's holding on her image, maybe it's a patchwork family - you never know.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #425 on: February 02, 2016, 06:26:19 pm »
+1

Okay, so i was thinking: Apparently one of the things i really disliked about Nouveau Riche was the art. I mean, it even has a gap that somehow looks like a scanline... Shudder. Either way, when looking for new art today, i stumbled over a few pics of rich kids, but nothing that spelled out "Nouveau Riche" to me. Then i thought, Nouveau Riche, maybe that doesn't sound medieval anyhow, maybe i should make it "Heir"? It still has that aura of unearned riches, and of aristocracy, that i wanted for a VP-interacting card.

So, how about a name/design change?



Thematic bonus: Inheritance as Estate Interaction now makes total sense. Also, this could be a Baron's heir, or a Duke's. Maybe the Duchess and the Baron had a kid and this guy is who she's holding on her image, maybe it's a patchwork family - you never know.

Love it, although I liked the art on the other one too.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #426 on: February 02, 2016, 07:35:13 pm »
0

Okay, so i was thinking: Apparently one of the things i really disliked about Nouveau Riche was the art. I mean, it even has a gap that somehow looks like a scanline... Shudder. Either way, when looking for new art today, i stumbled over a few pics of rich kids, but nothing that spelled out "Nouveau Riche" to me. Then i thought, Nouveau Riche, maybe that doesn't sound medieval anyhow, maybe i should make it "Heir"? It still has that aura of unearned riches, and of aristocracy, that i wanted for a VP-interacting card.

So, how about a name/design change?

Thematic bonus: Inheritance as Estate Interaction now makes total sense. Also, this could be a Baron's heir, or a Duke's. Maybe the Duchess and the Baron had a kid and this guy is who she's holding on her image, maybe it's a patchwork family - you never know.

Love it, although I liked the art on the other one too.

Well, the art also was very baroque, so it was a bit of an anachronism, too. It's a lot of little reasons coming together, but i'm glad you like the card :)
Also, Heir is now officially in the OP (again). Hooray!
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #427 on: February 04, 2016, 07:57:00 pm »
+1

Yo dawgs, i heard you like images. So i put some images in one image so you can use a software that acts as if you played a game where you act as if you were a king who acts kingly.



Includes Heir as well as Spells. If you don't know what Spells are: Completely untested stuff, can be bought during buy phase if a card using them is in the supply, and can only be used by those kingdom cards. Buying a Spell makes you take a copy of them to keep next to your deck (for now, exact mechanic still in the works), casting one removes it, the limit of Spells a player can have at a time is 6 Spells. You can have, e.g., 3 "Dexterity", 2 "Purity" and 1 "Glory". No limit on them either, so no one can buy them away.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #428 on: February 04, 2016, 08:00:57 pm »
+1

Heir is a great card. :) I used it with Alt-VP. I was (way) behind and had some bad shuffle luck (draw 2 heirs in hand with no vp's, even though my deck was like 25% green), but all in all: good card. Doesn't feel OP from the first usage.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #429 on: February 12, 2016, 08:58:15 am »
+1

Hey Asper,

I printed:

Alley,
Hospital
Road & Town (which I *won't* be using in a champions deck...)
Fountain
Jeweler
Sunken City


Any cards of these you are particularly interested in getting feedback on? We are having a dominion session tonight. :)
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Accatitippi

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #430 on: February 12, 2016, 11:48:42 am »
+2

Hey Asper,

I printed:

Alley,
Hospital
Road & Town (which I *won't* be using in a champions deck...)
Fountain
Jeweler
Sunken City


Any cards of these you are particularly interested in getting feedback on? We are having a dominion session tonight. :)

Champion-road doesn't seem too problematic, since you still need to draw a Road before you can draw your deck. It can misfire, and you'll usually want several roads anyway to increase your chances of going off. It would make for interesting games, I think.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 12:44:21 pm by Accatitippi »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #431 on: February 12, 2016, 12:02:49 pm »
+1

Scavenger, road and champion deck would be insane, though. :)

But with champion, every time you draw a road, you draw your entire deck. Seems a bit over the top. Might be a fun game, but I am not trying it for now.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #432 on: February 12, 2016, 01:07:23 pm »
+1

Hey Asper,

I printed:

Alley,
Hospital
Road & Town (which I *won't* be using in a champions deck...)
Fountain
Jeweler
Sunken City


Any cards of these you are particularly interested in getting feedback on? We are having a dominion session tonight. :)

A Tabletop Simulator Session? When? Can i watch/join? Edit: Oops, sorry, you wrote you "printed" them. Never mind :)

Most of those have been tested quite a bit. Hospital can go wacky, but only with the right kind of trashing (Forager, for example), and honestly i think redirecting the Page line from Multi-Page-Single-Warrior strategies isn't the worst thing Road could do... So i hope you will have fun with either card you pick.

Jeweler is the only card you printed which didn't have any playtesting in its current form, but that also means it might be too strong. I wouldn't like you to remember your session to be ruined by one of my cards, but of course the choice is up to you ;)

Edit: Fountain, Alley, Sunken City and Town are the ones i personally like most of these, btw.

Edit II: Also, of course i want to hear everything you got to say after that session. Thank you for trying out my cards :D
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 05:27:10 pm by Asper »
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461.weavile

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #433 on: February 13, 2016, 08:06:44 am »
+1

My most recent incarnation of Forest Medallion is eerily similar to your Hospital now... I swear it was an accident. It has a much different flavor and playstyle, so until it's identified as a bad card, I'm keeping it.

I'm also on TTS every so often. I'm usually content with teaching noobs, but I would enjoy a game with actual players and would put a password on my games.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #434 on: February 13, 2016, 08:15:09 am »
0

About Champion/Road, it wouldn't be the first strategy that centers on drawing your deck. At least IRL, you can now say "Here's Road, i'll just put my deck in hand." It's powerful, but it takes a while to get there. Also, no need to play all those Roads for real, just take your deck in hand, saves us time, hooray.

I was thinking about whether pricing Road at $3 would solve the "problem" by making it Warrior-trashable. Problem is, i hate Warrior with a passion, and i know from own experience that it can make games horrible, unfair and endless. Revealing Road, putting your deck in hand and buying one or two Provinces is merciful in comparison to what Warrior games can lead to.

My most recent incarnation of Forest Medallion is eerily similar to your Hospital now... I swear it was an accident. It has a much different flavor and playstyle, so until it's identified as a bad card, I'm keeping it.

I'm also on TTS every so often. I'm usually content with teaching noobs, but I would enjoy a game with actual players and would put a password on my games.

I'm central european time and like to play once in a while. Not today probably, but maybe tomorrow. Should i PM you?
Also, no worry on Hospital, i took inspiration from your Medaillons for Spells, myself ;)
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #435 on: February 13, 2016, 08:37:32 am »
+1

We played a two-player game yesterday with heir, wharf, port, distant lands, harem, duke and steward.

Heir is remarkably well prices at 4, I'd say. Sometimes it's a dud, even after the +3 cards, and sometimes it really shines. In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have included wharf, because that was just insane. But for now: we like the card and think it's decently prized.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #436 on: February 13, 2016, 09:51:39 am »
0

We played a two-player game yesterday with heir, wharf, port, distant lands, harem, duke and steward.

Heir is remarkably well prices at 4, I'd say. Sometimes it's a dud, even after the +3 cards, and sometimes it really shines. In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have included wharf, because that was just insane. But for now: we like the card and think it's decently prized.

Hooray, that's great to hear. Thanks for trying it out :)
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tristan

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #437 on: March 11, 2016, 08:52:36 am »
+1

Played a game with the old Sultan (that costs 4$ and hand-gains) and Harem last night. The combo was crazy and the player who emptied the Harem pile obviously won but despite the crazy combo I still like the card. The new version is probably better as hand-gaining implied that several Sultans could get several Harems in one turn.
Then again this is the single crazy combo with the card and everything else is probably more or less fine, be it with the old or the new version.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #438 on: March 12, 2016, 05:35:14 am »
0

Played a game with the old Sultan (that costs 4$ and hand-gains) and Harem last night. The combo was crazy and the player who emptied the Harem pile obviously won but despite the crazy combo I still like the card. The new version is probably better as hand-gaining implied that several Sultans could get several Harems in one turn.
Then again this is the single crazy combo with the card and everything else is probably more or less fine, be it with the old or the new version.

Well, several Sultans will still gain several Harems with the new version, as each Sultan you play draws the Harem you gained before. It's just that the topdecking makes it harder to draw something else, including further Sultans. I'm kind of glad the Harem combo still works, as, while i usually don't make cards to fit with a name, i really wanted Sultan to work with Harem.

Either way, thank you for trying it out. It's cool you seem to like the last version :)
I made it weaker mostly because Sultan was very strong if you aimed to get a first Province as fast as possible. It's a bit like Tournament in the respect it rewards spending your first $8 on green.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #439 on: March 27, 2016, 08:48:52 pm »
+4

I am leaving fds.

I'm not sure whether i will remove my account entirely, but i most certainly will stop posting here on a regular basis. I don't want to point out individual users that i have grown fond of, as those will know it either way, and i'd forget someone probably. If you wonder, might Asper be referring to me, the answer is pretty much certainly yes, and it might be even if you think "He can't be referring to me, we didn't interact that much anyway.". Please note that i'm not trying to severe any bridges to people i met here, it's just posting on fds that i won't be doing anymore.

Either way, as a last "boom" after (more or less) finishing Seasons, here are a few last fixes to my own cards (including Spellcasters, which are tested very little). Enjoy them and do with them what you like. I'm sorry i can't offer a TS-template, but my TS deck builder is somehow defunct. There is a farewell-bonus-card, Delegate, which is inspired from market squire's "Marco Polo". I leave Co0kieL0rd in charge of any Seasons-stuff, as that expansion was his idea originally. It was a pleasure to work with you, pal.

I will read replies to this specific thread and PMs for at least a little while in case there is something anyone wants to tell me. Best wishes to all of you.










Quote
Spells:
Spells one-shot effects that are similar to Events, in that they are not cards, but you can buy them during your buy phase. If a "Spellcaster" type kingdom card is in the supply, 3 Spells are chosen at random to be placed next to the supply and each player gets 5 tokens in that player's colour. During your buy phase, you may buy a Spell, just like you buy a card or an Event, and if you do, you put one of your tokens on the Spell (Spells are not gained and can't be put in a player's deck in any way). A Spell with your token on is "prepared", which means you can have up to 5 Spells prepared. If you have all your tokens on Spells already and buy another one, simply move one of your tokens. To actually use a Spell, you must play a kingdom card which allows you to "cast" a Spell (those are the Spellcaster type kingdom cards). If you cast a Spell, you choose one of the Spells you prepared, do its effect and then take back your token which you can use later to prepare another Spell.



That's all, folks.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #440 on: March 27, 2016, 10:13:55 pm »
+1

You will be missed :-*

You probably want to post the rules for spells in here too, or at least the link to their thread? I can't read.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 02:19:57 am by pacovf »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #441 on: March 28, 2016, 06:28:04 am »
+1

Thanks, pacovf :)
That's mutual.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #442 on: March 28, 2016, 06:49:34 am »
+4

April Fools? Please?
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #443 on: March 28, 2016, 07:05:30 am »
+2

Too soon.
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Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #444 on: March 28, 2016, 10:07:28 am »
0

I'm serious.
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Nflickner

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #445 on: April 14, 2016, 01:06:25 pm »
+2

I'm serious.
Very sad--I have really appreciated your cards!  Would love to see you come back occasionally when you feel like it :)  I like your final addition too--the Delegate--I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it--but it seems very fun. 
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Accatitippi

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #446 on: April 14, 2016, 05:23:25 pm »
+2

I missed this post, I was wondering what everybody was referring to in the Seasons thread. :-[
I really liked your contributions and many of your cards, and your feedback to my and others' cards too. Farewell, and best of luck!  :)
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Accatitippi

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #447 on: April 21, 2016, 05:25:12 am »
+1

Incidentally, I love Delegate. Easily the best fan card of its kind.
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Nflickner

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #448 on: April 21, 2016, 02:14:25 pm »
+1

Incidentally, I love Delegate. Easily the best fan card of its kind.

I completely agree!  What a brilliant design!  I haven't playtested it yet, but I'm excited to. 
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #449 on: April 22, 2016, 09:16:17 pm »
+3

Thank you guys :)
It's good to hear you like the stuff i did :')

It's not out of the question that i'll return when a few of my projects are done, but for now i want to give those my (mostly) full attention. Which obviously doesn't mean i won't look here from time to time and maybe even answer to posts (like i'm doing now), but that's mostly because i'm weak... ;)
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Nflickner

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #450 on: April 23, 2016, 01:01:20 am »
+1

Thank you guys :)
It's good to hear you like the stuff i did :')

It's not out of the question that i'll return when a few of my projects are done, but for now i want to give those my (mostly) full attention. Which obviously doesn't mean i won't look here from time to time and maybe even answer to posts (like i'm doing now), but that's mostly because i'm weak... ;)

yeah, I hope you continue to be weak :)  I stand by my statement on the seasons thread that Seasons is the best fan made expansion, and half of that credit belongs to you!  Thanks for making balanced, fun, good-looking, and creative cards.  I hope that you are inspired when you have more time to make some more :)  I know I have been inspired, and will be posting some of my own cards to add to the possibilities in the Dominion Seasons world. :)  (I already posted one rough idea--"Dragon Hunter" that I will eventually bring to full fruition and mock up).  Hope you don't mind :) 
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #451 on: May 28, 2016, 12:10:53 pm »
+3

Asper's cards are a work of art, and I'm nowhere near as good as him. Seeing as Asper left F.ds I thought it was worth it to change fountain. There's already a landmark called fountain so I renamed it residence. Enjoy!


EDIT: Well (No pun intended) this is useless now. I'll leave it up if you prefer it more than well.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 03:13:10 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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My magnum opus collection of dominion fan cards is available here!

Nflickner

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #452 on: May 28, 2016, 02:52:44 pm »
+2

Asper's cards are a work of art, and I'm nowhere near as good as him. Seeing as Asper left F.ds I thought it was worth it to change fountain. There's already a landmark called fountain so I renamed it residence. Enjoy!
It looks great! thanks :)
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #453 on: May 28, 2016, 04:08:53 pm »
+4

Man, i have posted quite a bit over the last few days, just not here. Which is bad, because i'm falling back into old habits. Either way, i appreciate the effort of mocking up a card. This means the set stays up to date, or at least mostly. However, Fountain (or Residence) should only allow you to gain a differently named card to reduce the card's use for pile control.

Another card that has become obsolete is Jeweler. It was mainly my attempt at doing an Action-Treasure (gameplay-wise) without having to introduce that dreaded type combination. As now an official Action-Treasure exists, the point of the card is gone.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 08:22:14 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #454 on: June 07, 2016, 09:38:52 pm »
+3

Did you know my cards are a Treasure chest? No? Well, they are. Kind of. Well, not technically, but i tried to use a lot of different mechanics, and all of these came from different expansions, so that's kind of the same thing. Considering i now used all mechanics i intended to use, i'll just state that the chest is now finished. In case someone wonders, here's the key:
  • Base: Assemble, Artificer
  • Intrigue: Sultan, Maze
  • Seaside: Decree, Sunken City
  • Alchemy: Homunculus, Incantation
  • Prosperity: Minister, Hospital
  • Cornucopia: Blacksmith, Mill
  • Hinterlands: Well (aka. Fountain), Meadow
  • Dark Ages: Alley, Necromancer, Iron Maiden
  • Guilds: Sheriff, Politician (see below)
  • Adventures: Hunter, Delegate, Research
  • Bonus: Town

What has been lacking up to this day were underpay, a deliberately political card, and something with coin tokens. As Empires introduced Debt, underpay became irrelevant, so i could check that off. To finalize this collection, here's a card that does the other two things (plus Fountain's new name):



Obviously you can't please everybody with a card that has this concept, so it's fine if you don't like Politician. As always, consider "Asper's Cards" a lab where i try to create new weirdness from classic mechanics.

Either way, the "set" now has 22 kingdom cards, 2 extra piles and an Event, so i'd say it has the perfect size to call it "done".
PS: Spellcasters are not technically part of this collection.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 10:16:26 pm by Asper »
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Nflickner

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #455 on: June 08, 2016, 01:13:01 am »
+2

Asper, I beg you not to call it done quite yet--a new set just came out!!!  Can't you put in a couple more to make it a round 25 cards and complete the treasure chest by including the latest expansion?  :)  This is just a ploy to get you to design more cards, which are brilliant. 

Also, politician is an interesting card--do you think it works well in a two player game?  Most of my games are two player.  I think I like it alot, but not sure until i play it. 
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tristan

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #456 on: June 08, 2016, 02:33:15 am »
+1

Obviously a political card violates one of Donald's design principles but I fail to see why a fan card should not violate it. The advantage of political components in games is that they enable the weaker players to hurt the stronger players. So if somebody gets a good start in a 3P Dominion game the match is normally basically already over whereas with political cards the other two folks have a moderate chance to catch up
About the specific card, gaining a Silver is good in the early game but in the middle- or endgame it is only of moderate importance so I'd say that the card is good.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #457 on: June 08, 2016, 06:49:34 am »
0

Asper, I beg you not to call it done quite yet--a new expansion just just came out!!!  Can't you put ina couple more to make it a round5 cards and complete the treasure chest by including the latest expansion?  :)  This is just a ploy to get you to design more cards, which are brilliant. 

Thank you for those nice words... Sadly, i don't really feel like doing something based off Empires. I'm not sure my opinion might change, but for now that's how it is.

Obviously a political card violates one of Donald's design principles but I fail to see why a fan card should not violate it. The advantage of political components in games is that they enable the weaker players to hurt the stronger players. So if somebody gets a good start in a 3P Dominion game the match is normally basically already over whereas with political cards the other two folks have a moderate chance to catch up
About the specific card, gaining a Silver is good in the early game but in the middle- or endgame it is only of moderate importance so I'd say that the card is good.

I also considered the advantage to be the slightly more creative "Choose another player who may gain a Copper, putting it in hand.", giving the card a more immediate effect that's stronger at the end and very start. Is that more interesting?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #458 on: June 08, 2016, 02:55:02 pm »
0

Also, politician is an interesting card--do you think it works well in a two player game?  Most of my games are two player.  I think I like it alot, but not sure until i play it.

Sorry, i forgot to answer to this. Well, in a 2-player game, Politician is weakest, as you give 100% of your opponents a choice, and can't choose yourself. I still think it's relatively strong, and in fact i'm not sure whether it might be too strong with more players.
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Nflickner

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #459 on: June 08, 2016, 03:36:38 pm »
+1

Also, politician is an interesting card--do you think it works well in a two player game?  Most of my games are two player.  I think I like it alot, but not sure until i play it.

Sorry, i forgot to answer to this. Well, in a 2-player game, Politician is weakest, as you give 100% of your opponents a choice, and can't choose yourself. I still think it's relatively strong, and in fact i'm not sure whether it might be too strong with more players.

Either way, I like the mechanics of the card and think it will work quite well.  I think it would be interesting to have a political card that hurts selected players instead of helping them.  Also, I'm not the biggest fan of the art you picked for it.  I think it's because the politician doesn't look very medieval or ancient.  Perhaps a Roman leader would look better?  Just my thoughts.   
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #460 on: June 08, 2016, 08:51:17 pm »
0

Also, politician is an interesting card--do you think it works well in a two player game?  Most of my games are two player.  I think I like it alot, but not sure until i play it.

Sorry, i forgot to answer to this. Well, in a 2-player game, Politician is weakest, as you give 100% of your opponents a choice, and can't choose yourself. I still think it's relatively strong, and in fact i'm not sure whether it might be too strong with more players.

Either way, I like the mechanics of the card and think it will work quite well.  I think it would be interesting to have a political card that hurts selected players instead of helping them.  Also, I'm not the biggest fan of the art you picked for it.  I think it's because the politician doesn't look very medieval or ancient.  Perhaps a Roman leader would look better?  Just my thoughts.   

Yes, the art doesn't fit. I mean, it's a character from a book series i like, but not fitting. If anybody finds something better, i'll use that.

Hurting selected players would have made it an attack, and that would have been okay... But i feel helping selected players is more fun.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #461 on: June 09, 2016, 04:02:49 am »
+2

Also, politician is an interesting card--do you think it works well in a two player game?  Most of my games are two player.  I think I like it alot, but not sure until i play it.

Sorry, i forgot to answer to this. Well, in a 2-player game, Politician is weakest, as you give 100% of your opponents a choice, and can't choose yourself. I still think it's relatively strong, and in fact i'm not sure whether it might be too strong with more players.

Either way, I like the mechanics of the card and think it will work quite well.  I think it would be interesting to have a political card that hurts selected players instead of helping them.  Also, I'm not the biggest fan of the art you picked for it.  I think it's because the politician doesn't look very medieval or ancient.  Perhaps a Roman leader would look better?  Just my thoughts.   

Yes, the art doesn't fit. I mean, it's a character from a book series i like, but not fitting. If anybody finds something better, i'll use that.

Hurting selected players would have made it an attack, and that would have been okay... But i feel helping selected players is more fun.

When I saw it I thougt it bore a striking resemblance to Havelock Vetinari. Did I guess right? :)

Maybe Diplomat would be a better fit?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #462 on: June 09, 2016, 09:46:24 am »
+1

Also, politician is an interesting card--do you think it works well in a two player game?  Most of my games are two player.  I think I like it alot, but not sure until i play it.

Sorry, i forgot to answer to this. Well, in a 2-player game, Politician is weakest, as you give 100% of your opponents a choice, and can't choose yourself. I still think it's relatively strong, and in fact i'm not sure whether it might be too strong with more players.

Either way, I like the mechanics of the card and think it will work quite well.  I think it would be interesting to have a political card that hurts selected players instead of helping them.  Also, I'm not the biggest fan of the art you picked for it.  I think it's because the politician doesn't look very medieval or ancient.  Perhaps a Roman leader would look better?  Just my thoughts.   

Yes, the art doesn't fit. I mean, it's a character from a book series i like, but not fitting. If anybody finds something better, i'll use that.

Hurting selected players would have made it an attack, and that would have been okay... But i feel helping selected players is more fun.

When I saw it I thougt it bore a striking resemblance to Havelock Vetinari. Did I guess right? :)

Maybe Diplomat would be a better fit?

Yes, you guessed right. I thought: "A guy who does unfair stuff to keep things in balance and stay in power? I should pick him!"
Sadly, i got no picture that was all well-drawn, colored and medieval-looking, so i took what came closest. I chose "Politician" as a way of saying "It's political, duh.", but you are right the name isn't that good. After all, a lot of existing cards are politicians, including my own Minister and Delegate... Diplomat sounds nice, i think i even have a picture for that.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #463 on: June 09, 2016, 11:49:46 am »
+1

Also, politician is an interesting card--do you think it works well in a two player game?  Most of my games are two player.  I think I like it alot, but not sure until i play it.

Sorry, i forgot to answer to this. Well, in a 2-player game, Politician is weakest, as you give 100% of your opponents a choice, and can't choose yourself. I still think it's relatively strong, and in fact i'm not sure whether it might be too strong with more players.

Either way, I like the mechanics of the card and think it will work quite well.  I think it would be interesting to have a political card that hurts selected players instead of helping them.  Also, I'm not the biggest fan of the art you picked for it.  I think it's because the politician doesn't look very medieval or ancient.  Perhaps a Roman leader would look better?  Just my thoughts.   

Yes, the art doesn't fit. I mean, it's a character from a book series i like, but not fitting. If anybody finds something better, i'll use that.

Hurting selected players would have made it an attack, and that would have been okay... But i feel helping selected players is more fun.

When I saw it I thougt it bore a striking resemblance to Havelock Vetinari. Did I guess right? :)

Maybe Diplomat would be a better fit?

Yes, you guessed right. I thought: "A guy who does unfair stuff to keep things in balance and stay in power? I should pick him!"
Sadly, i got no picture that was all well-drawn, colored and medieval-looking, so i took what came closest. I chose "Politician" as a way of saying "It's political, duh.", but you are right the name isn't that good. After all, a lot of existing cards are politicians, including my own Minister and Delegate... Diplomat sounds nice, i think i even have a picture for that.

I like the "duh" effect of Politician, (and the choice of Vetinari as specimen) yet it feels slightly off-theme. That said, everything is allowed in your own fan expansion. :)

There is a drawing of Vetinari in the Ankh Morpork game, it's a bit caricatural, though; and good luck finding a high-res image...
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 12:28:30 pm by Accatitippi »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #464 on: June 09, 2016, 12:22:01 pm »
+2

I even know that game, but didn't think of it... But yes, maybe Vetinari is a bit too off theme. After all, it should also work for people who don't know the novels. So i think i'm going to make it Diplomat.



I picked some foreign-looking art, because it seemed to fit the epoque and Dominion doesn't have that much "same time, different place" yet. Also, corpulent, bearded men with eastern origin stories are well known for giving out presents, or so i heard. I'm kidding here.

I also fixed up some wording weirdness with Assemble, Zombie and Iron Maiden. For those, as usual, look in the OP. That should be it. Hussah!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #465 on: June 09, 2016, 05:13:29 pm »
+1

Thanks--great art, and great design
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #466 on: June 09, 2016, 08:02:51 pm »
+2

Thanks, Nflickner :)

Even though my deck builder still doesn't work, i found out how to align cards in Gimp. So, for you Tabletop-Simulator-Guys:
(Check the "use Back as Hidden" option if needed)

« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 08:04:23 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #467 on: June 19, 2016, 08:30:10 pm »
0

Thanks, Nflickner :)

Even though my deck builder still doesn't work, i found out how to align cards in Gimp. So, for you Tabletop-Simulator-Guys:
(Check the "use Back as Hidden" option if needed)
Thanks for this!  I got your cards loaded into TS now!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #468 on: July 19, 2016, 07:07:09 pm »
+1

Hey Asper,

We played a game today that included Mill and Minister.

The feedback on Mill was: nice idea, but it's 'never' a good time to buy it. it's cheap, but it's obviously a very bad opening buy, right, because well, the diversity in your deck is pretty low. But later, when there is a high likelihood of Mill actually providing good valued cards (4 or 5), you probably have a bunch of good cards already, and are ready to start provincing or something. The fact that it's terminal doesn't really help either at that point. The person who bought the card wasn't dissatisfied with it, but it didn't really help all that much for their deck at that point either. Maybe if it's a peddler with that benefit or an on gain benefit ('now and when you play it *insert effect'), that would be pretty cool. But as it's now, it could use something extra. The effect is cool and awesome, but it needs something more.

Minister was fun. It didn't see much usage, but it served some purpose. Not sufficient to commenate extensively, but it was neither overpowered or underpowered.

Maybe it helps to add that it was a 4 player game, so less turns than usual, less building towards a deck.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #469 on: July 20, 2016, 05:12:35 pm »
+2

Hey Asper,

We played a game today that included Mill and Minister.

The feedback on Mill was: nice idea, but it's 'never' a good time to buy it. it's cheap, but it's obviously a very bad opening buy, right, because well, the diversiy in your deck is pretty low. But later, when there is a high likelihood of Mill actually providing good valued cards (4 or 5), you probably have a bunch of good cards already, and are ready to start provincing or something. The fact that it's terminal doesn't really help either at that point. The person who bought the card wasn't dissatisfied with it, but it didn't really help all that much for their deck at that point either. Maybe if it's a peddler with that benefit or an on gain benefit ('now and when you play it *insert effect'), that would be pretty cool. But as it's now, it could use something extra. The effect is cool and awesome, but it needs something more.

Minister was fun. It didn't see much usage, but it served some purpose. Not sufficient to commenate extensively, but it was neither overpowered or underpowered.

Maybe it helps to add that it was a 4 player game, so less turns than usual, less building towards a deck.

Thanks for your feedback and trying out my cards. Thanks also to the people you are playing with :)

It's interesting you say you found Mill weak. At the beginning of the game, it is usually going to pick up cards costing $3, as it will hit Copper, Estate and likely your other opening buy. That's a bit worse than Workshop, until you realize it provides pretty much one turn additional cycling, giving you faster access to the new card. And every card it gains makes it stronger. So, in my experience, the beginning is actually the perfect time to get Mill.

If you still find it weak (which i hope you won't), try out using six cards -> More sifting, higher chance to hit $5, higher max. Just as info though: Five is a nerf i did because six was too good.

Maybe you had the Rebuild problem: Everybody thinks it looks weak, nobody buys it, as nobody buys it it must be weak, let's buff it. Don't think i refuse to take your experience serious, but i feel that in the beginning you might have underestimated the card and then got it too late to get something from it. It's just that you learn more about a card by actually using it, for the better or worse. Maybe you can give it another shot and have somebody courageous open with Mill (double-Mill?) to see where it leads them ;)
If it turns out horrible, i will take the blame.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #470 on: July 20, 2016, 07:07:59 pm »
+1

Next time, I'll combine Mill with a secondary opening buy and see what gives, because I definitely see your point. It's a workshop that gets better, with a small risk associated with it.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #471 on: July 25, 2016, 07:17:18 am »
0

I am leaving fds.
So was this an April Fool's joke, or did your plan just change? I'm confuseduled.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #472 on: July 25, 2016, 09:40:54 am »
+2

I am leaving fds.
So was this an April Fool's joke, or did your plan just change? I'm confuseduled.

I totally intended to leave fds, but i find myself unable to stop visiting the site. It's pretty much an addiction. I intended to stop because i wanted to focus more on my real-world goals and duties. But my cards are better received than ever before (especially the feedback on Seasons baffled me), and i'd lie if i said the positive feedback doesn't make me feel good. So, i keep coming back, and failing to do what i decided i should do. It's hard to tell how i feel about this :|
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #473 on: August 01, 2016, 12:11:47 pm »
+3

You could try only logging to f.ds as a "reward" for getting stuff done.

Doesn't work for me, but you know...
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #474 on: August 01, 2016, 08:22:42 pm »
+1

You could try only logging to f.ds as a "reward" for getting stuff done.

Doesn't work for me, but you know...

You imply i'm ever logging off ;)

But seriously, i'll try this. Like, with this very log.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 08:23:44 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #475 on: August 07, 2016, 07:00:45 pm »
+1

I was thinking about paddock today, and I wonder what the deal is with the card.

Quote
Paddock
Action - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
Gain a silver

So it's a peddler (worth $4) with an additional silver gaining. But, well, if you are playing an engine (and usually, peddler are very good engine cards), you don't want the silvers. But as a big money card, it seems a bith underwhelming at $5. Free silver is nice, but, well, it's not gold.

So it's a very unclear card in what it's role is, and maybe that's the good thing about it. What do other people think?

We also played a game with meadow, but it didn't come into play, unfortunately. So no feedback there.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #476 on: August 07, 2016, 08:20:03 pm »
0

I was thinking about paddock today, and I wonder what the deal is with the card.

Quote
Paddock
Action - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
Gain a silver

So it's a peddler (worth $4) with an additional silver gaining. But, well, if you are playing an engine (and usually, peddler are very good engine cards), you don't want the silvers. But as a big money card, it seems a bith underwhelming at $5. Free silver is nice, but, well, it's not gold.

So it's a very unclear card in what it's role is, and maybe that's the good thing about it. What do other people think?

We also played a game with meadow, but it didn't come into play, unfortunately. So no feedback there.

Paddock was always pretty weak, which is why i took it out and replaced it with Artisan, which tells you to gain a card costing up to $3. On some boards, this might still be either Silver, Estate or Copper, but usually you'll be able to pick up something better. I don't recommend playing with Paddock anymore. I clinged to it in that old form for a while, but it just couldn't keep up.

Meadow is better in the endgame, with alt VP cards, and when you have good trash-for-benefit.

Edit: To get a full view of the current cards, go to the first post in the thread.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 08:21:31 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #477 on: August 08, 2016, 06:58:01 pm »
+4

Spells are confusing. I hardly ever play with them because balancing them is a pain. And i don't mean the french word for bread - besides, i prefer cake. As you know, if you don't have bread, eat cake. Just that, the cake is a lie. It lies up to you to check out this new card i made, which uses a mechanic derived from my idea for the "Glory" spell:



Rules: Whatever method you use to determine whether Events are included, do so before you choose kingdom cards. You can also exclude Invasion from your random events. It should never have you end up with an additional kingdom card pile.

The cards are designed to look roman because i made them for Empires (hooray). It offers an alternative way to Victory and i also considered costing Invader at <8> for a while. As you see, that didn't make it. The concept is kind of anti-debt: You pay first, and get stuff later.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #478 on: August 08, 2016, 07:47:58 pm »
+1

What about <$2>? or ? Do either of those work?
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Nflickner

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #479 on: August 08, 2016, 08:02:57 pm »
+1


The cards are designed to look roman because i made them for Empires (hooray). It offers an alternative way to Victory and i also considered costing Invader at <8> for a while. As you see, that didn't make it. The concept is kind of anti-debt: You pay first, and get stuff later.

Love these cards!!!!  I also appreciate your choice of art :)  are you a fan of Total War?  One of my favorite PC franchises.

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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #480 on: August 08, 2016, 08:46:27 pm »
+1

What about <$2>? or ? Do either of those work?

Yes, they do. But i feel that having only a small debt doesn't do much. It's a good way to balance Marriage, where $7 would ruin the concept, because if you produce $7 already, you probably don't want much Gold anymore; and for Engineer which has a special self-interaction because of its cost. But besides that i think a card/event that uses small debt token counts needs to do something that makes that more relevant. For Invader, i simply didn't see that oportunity, and the complexity just didn't seem like it would add enough. Also, it goes a bit against the idea of the card, because debt costs you more, but gives stuff quicker. I want things to cost less, and delay them (which is not really a disadvantage here).


The cards are designed to look roman because i made them for Empires (hooray). It offers an alternative way to Victory and i also considered costing Invader at <8> for a while. As you see, that didn't make it. The concept is kind of anti-debt: You pay first, and get stuff later.

Love these cards!!!!  I also appreciate your choice of art :)  are you a fan of Total War?  One of my favorite PC franchises.

I never actually played it, i just stole the art. But it's good to hear you like it :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #481 on: August 08, 2016, 08:52:25 pm »
+1

I love the idea of building an engine with four or five Invaders in it, and then waiting till your last turn to get all the provinces left so that your deck is thin until then :) 
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #482 on: August 08, 2016, 09:04:42 pm »
+1

I love the idea of building an engine with four or five Invaders in it, and then waiting till your last turn to get all the provinces left so that your deck is thin until then :)

The number of Invaders just limits how many Provinces you can gain at once, so i am actually worried it might be a bit too strong. You can use it for both the mega turn strategy you describe, or for just preparing 2-3 Provinces and gaining them as soon as the pile gets low and your deck starts to choke. Both strategies suffer when your opponent bought too many Provinces first, because then you spent $7 for nothing. Time will tell how strong (and fun) the card really is.

Edit: I might also bump up the cost for Invasion to $8. Then some people will ask, why should you buy that, but asking will be the first step to seeing.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 09:06:50 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #483 on: August 08, 2016, 09:09:33 pm »
+1

I love the idea of building an engine with four or five Invaders in it, and then waiting till your last turn to get all the provinces left so that your deck is thin until then :)

The number of Invaders just limits how many Provinces you can gain at once, so i am actually worried it might be a bit too strong. You can use it for both the mega turn strategy you describe, or for just preparing 2-3 Provinces and gaining them as soon as the pile gets low and your deck starts to choke. Both strategies suffer when your opponent bought too many Provinces first, because then you spent $7 for nothing. Time will tell how strong (and fun) the card really is.

Edit: I might also bump up the cost for Invasion to $8. Then some people will ask, why should you buy that, but asking will be the first step to seeing.

Hmm,  I kind of like the pricing the way it is right now, but agree that invaders could be a little overpowered.  Perhaps it could come with a drawback?  Or a very small boon to other players when you gain it? 

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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #484 on: August 08, 2016, 09:22:06 pm »
+1

I love the idea of building an engine with four or five Invaders in it, and then waiting till your last turn to get all the provinces left so that your deck is thin until then :)

The number of Invaders just limits how many Provinces you can gain at once, so i am actually worried it might be a bit too strong. You can use it for both the mega turn strategy you describe, or for just preparing 2-3 Provinces and gaining them as soon as the pile gets low and your deck starts to choke. Both strategies suffer when your opponent bought too many Provinces first, because then you spent $7 for nothing. Time will tell how strong (and fun) the card really is.

Edit: I might also bump up the cost for Invasion to $8. Then some people will ask, why should you buy that, but asking will be the first step to seeing.

Hmm,  I kind of like the pricing the way it is right now, but agree that invaders could be a little overpowered.  Perhaps it could come with a drawback?  Or a very small boon to other players when you gain it?

I will think about it after some more testing. Maybe the problem is that a single Invader already gives you all you need to use Invasion, at least on boards where you don't get a bloated deck. I guess the key thing to balance has to be the Event.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #485 on: August 08, 2016, 11:46:47 pm »
+2

More stuff:
First card is basically something eHalcyon posted, just solved a little bit different mechanically. Original thread is here.
Second is another take at my coin token event.



This ramps the set up to 24 kingdom cards with Empires represented. Including several Events and 2 additional piles, we now have a full Treasure Chest once again - until Donald makes another game.

In the mean time, i got three cool game projects i'm working on/for. And two of those are even paid :D

Either way, if you want to try the cards, here's the TTS-Template. As a bonus, it includes the Landmark i made for the Treasure Chest contest:
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 01:26:25 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #486 on: August 09, 2016, 12:32:30 am »
+1

More stuff:
First card is basically something eHalcyon posted, just solved a little bit different mechanically. Original thread is here.
Second is another take at my coin token event.

This ramps the set up to 24 kingdom cards with Empires represented. Including several Events and 2 additional piles, we now have a full Treasure Chest once again - until Donald makes another game.

In the mean time, i got three cool game projects i'm working on/for. And two of those are even paid :D

Either way, if you want to try the cards, here's the TTS-Template. As a bonus, it includes the Landmark i made for the Treasure Chest contest:


Very nice.  Have you considered making Bargain cost 6, gain card costing up to 5, gain coin token?  As is, it feels quite similar to Summon.  It feels a little more fun in my mind at cost 6. 
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #487 on: August 09, 2016, 03:24:41 am »
+1

Yay for getting paid!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #488 on: August 09, 2016, 06:13:25 am »
0

Very nice.  Have you considered making Bargain cost 6, gain card costing up to 5, gain coin token?  As is, it feels quite similar to Summon.  It feels a little more fun in my mind at cost 6.
I agree. Bargain is a niche Event, it is only brilliant (of course there are situations where you wanna rush-pile a 4 and/or just need a 4 instead of a 5) in Kingdoms without decent 5s.
But you are willing more often to overpay for a 5 than for a 4 as there are seldom 6$ Action cards in the Kingdom (and you don't always want Gold when you reach 6).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #489 on: August 09, 2016, 07:38:00 am »
+1

I appreciate the new cards! Of course, I have to find new art for 2 of mine now since they were originally rejects from your thread.

A few comments: I like the idea of costing and giving on bargain. I think that's how I'll test it. Extortioner seems good, but I still like the name Toll Road a bit better. I originally thought swamp seemed to have to little impact on the game, but I have changed my opinion on that. It still might be useless. Invasion should say "Add Invader to the supply", not "Use Invader". Think young witch. Invader could say "Add Invasion to the Kingdom", but there is no real precedent here.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #490 on: August 09, 2016, 07:48:06 am »
+1

I appreciate the new cards! Of course, I have to find new art for 2 of mine now since they were originally rejects from your thread.

A few comments: I like the idea of costing and giving on bargain. I think that's how I'll test it. Extortioner seems good, but I still like the name Toll Road a bit better. I originally thought swamp seemed to have to little impact on the game, but I have changed my opinion on that. It still might be useless. Invasion should say "Add Invader to the supply", not "Use Invader". Think young witch. Invader could say "Add Invasion to the Kingdom", but there is no real precedent here.

Well, i was thinking "Tollkeeper" first, because i feel attacks are more interesting if they are named to be people. But the only picture i found that fit that i didn't like.
Swamp isn't very unteresting, i know. It's on the template because why not.
About Invader, i don't really know... Young Witch actually adds a card, which Invasion doesn't. Probably "add" would be more consistant still, but i don't want people to think you play with 11 kingdom cards. Hum. Maybe it's enough to just write it on Invader - i could use "add there".
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #491 on: August 09, 2016, 08:19:59 am »
+2

I appreciate the new cards! Of course, I have to find new art for 2 of mine now since they were originally rejects from your thread.

A few comments: I like the idea of costing and giving on bargain. I think that's how I'll test it. Extortioner seems good, but I still like the name Toll Road a bit better. I originally thought swamp seemed to have to little impact on the game, but I have changed my opinion on that. It still might be useless. Invasion should say "Add Invader to the supply", not "Use Invader". Think young witch. Invader could say "Add Invasion to the Kingdom", but there is no real precedent here.

Well, i was thinking "Tollkeeper" first, because i feel attacks are more interesting if they are named to be people. But the only picture i found that fit that i didn't like.
Swamp isn't very unteresting, i know. It's on the template because why not.
About Invader, i don't really know... Young Witch actually adds a card, which Invasion doesn't. Probably "add" would be more consistant still, but i don't want people to think you play with 11 kingdom cards. Hum. Maybe it's enough to just write it on Invader - i could use "add there".

I have a card named Tollkeeper already!

For Invader, I would write "add Invasion to the Kingdom" since events are not Supply cards.

I'm going to talk to you about these cards in more detail soon, ideally after having played games with them.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #492 on: August 09, 2016, 08:20:46 am »
+1

About the Bargain suggestion: I thought about it, like it and will change the card. Some time in the future.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #493 on: August 09, 2016, 09:41:08 am »
+2

I think invasion moght even cost $9.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #494 on: August 09, 2016, 10:26:18 am »
+2

I think invasion moght even cost $9.

How? It's strictly worse than just buying a Province.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #495 on: August 09, 2016, 10:28:06 am »
+2

How is 'getting a province for free later, without it interfzrong with your deck now' strictly worse?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #496 on: August 09, 2016, 10:36:57 am »
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I think invasion moght even cost $9.

How? It's strictly worse than just buying a Province.

Honestly, i have hoped for someone to ask that ;)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #497 on: August 09, 2016, 10:47:14 am »
+1

I'd say invasion is neither strictly worse or strictly better, but since it gives more flexibility than province, it might as well cost more.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #498 on: August 09, 2016, 11:00:54 am »
+1

Updates and corrections:





The template includes the rather experimental Spellcasters again, although i cleaned them up a bit to make them easier to play with. Also i suggest using 2 Spells a game, now.


I'd say invasion is neither strictly worse or strictly better, but since it gives more flexibility than province, it might as well cost more.

I changed it to $8 now, because there has to be something Invader does. I will change it to more if it seems necessary, but Invader is a $5 after all.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #499 on: August 09, 2016, 09:31:10 pm »
0

Played games with Invader, Bargain and Extortioner today.

Extortioner is really weak. It's probably better at $3, and likely should even give a +Buy the second turn.

Invader seems like it would be too strong, but i didn't go through with testing it, so we didn't really see its power.

Bargain at $6 is nice and works. Suddenly you actually want to reach $6 even when going for an engine - the coin token is just really valuable.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #500 on: August 10, 2016, 03:51:05 am »
+1

I feel like Invader might give way too much importance to being able to end the game on your turn (so that the other player doesn't get to cash in her tokens)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #501 on: August 14, 2016, 04:56:36 pm »
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I guess i will try another version of Invader, which gets trashed when you gain a Province. Even like this, it's a Peddler that lets you hold back a Province gain until later, which should be fine.
Extortioner has been buffed to an attacking Woodcutter/Amulet cross.
Also, i changed the wording on Assemble back, changed Diplomat, and did some balancing for the Spellcasters that i didn't tell you about last time and still don't consider that important.



If anybody feels like playing a Tabletop-Simulator game with me, please PM me.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #502 on: August 19, 2016, 09:27:42 am »
0

Small idea:

Credit, $3, Event
Turn your Journey Token over (it starts face up). If it's face up, gain a card costing $5.

The basic idea here is to have something you can buy in pieces. Journey Token was just the best way i could think of to implement that. Originally i thought it should gain Gold, but that seemed like it would push Big Money strategies too much. Thoughts?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #503 on: August 19, 2016, 09:43:08 am »
+1

Small idea:

Credit, $3, Event
Turn your Journey Token over (it starts face up). If it's face up, gain a card costing $5.

The basic idea here is to have something you can buy in pieces. Journey Token was just the best way i could think of to implement that. Originally i thought it should gain Gold, but that seemed like it would push Big Money strategies too much. Thoughts?
Seems slightly weakish perhaps?  Compare to Pilgrimage, which does a whole lot more on average for not much additional cost.
It should probably be "up to $5" for flexibility, at the very least, I'd think.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #504 on: August 19, 2016, 10:47:39 am »
0

Small idea:

Credit, $3, Event
Turn your Journey Token over (it starts face up). If it's face up, gain a card costing $5.

The basic idea here is to have something you can buy in pieces. Journey Token was just the best way i could think of to implement that. Originally i thought it should gain Gold, but that seemed like it would push Big Money strategies too much. Thoughts?
Seems slightly weakish perhaps?  Compare to Pilgrimage, which does a whole lot more on average for not much additional cost.
It should probably be "up to $5" for flexibility, at the very least, I'd think.

Well, Pilgrimage requires you to have and play the cards in the first place. I mean, often you'd trade your 3/4 opening for a 2/5, right? And if you have $6 and two buys, would you never go for a $5 instead of 2/4 or 3/3? I really think you would. Either way, i am sure you are right about the "up to". No need to enforce unflexibility.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #505 on: August 19, 2016, 10:54:53 am »
+1

Small idea:

Credit, $3, Event
Turn your Journey Token over (it starts face up). If it's face up, gain a card costing $5.

The basic idea here is to have something you can buy in pieces. Journey Token was just the best way i could think of to implement that. Originally i thought it should gain Gold, but that seemed like it would push Big Money strategies too much. Thoughts?
Seems slightly weakish perhaps?  Compare to Pilgrimage, which does a whole lot more on average for not much additional cost.
It should probably be "up to $5" for flexibility, at the very least, I'd think.

Well, Pilgrimage requires you to have and play the cards in the first place. I mean, often you'd trade your 3/4 opening for a 2/5, right? And if you have $6 and two buys, would you never go for a $5 instead of 2/4 or 3/3? I really think you would. Either way, i am sure you are right about the "up to". No need to enforce unflexibility.
Hmm.  As an opening I suspect you're right, it's decent enough.  I just wonder whether it's ever going to be bought after the first, say, 3 or 4 turns.
Even something as simple as putting a Buy on it might make it feel a bit better to me.  But that's just me.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #506 on: August 19, 2016, 11:48:57 am »
+2

Small idea:

Credit, $3, Event
Turn your Journey Token over (it starts face up). If it's face up, gain a card costing $5.

The basic idea here is to have something you can buy in pieces. Journey Token was just the best way i could think of to implement that. Originally i thought it should gain Gold, but that seemed like it would push Big Money strategies too much. Thoughts?
Seems slightly weakish perhaps?  Compare to Pilgrimage, which does a whole lot more on average for not much additional cost.
It should probably be "up to $5" for flexibility, at the very least, I'd think.

Well, Pilgrimage requires you to have and play the cards in the first place. I mean, often you'd trade your 3/4 opening for a 2/5, right? And if you have $6 and two buys, would you never go for a $5 instead of 2/4 or 3/3? I really think you would. Either way, i am sure you are right about the "up to". No need to enforce unflexibility.
Hmm.  As an opening I suspect you're right, it's decent enough.  I just wonder whether it's ever going to be bought after the first, say, 3 or 4 turns.
Even something as simple as putting a Buy on it might make it feel a bit better to me.  But that's just me.

Your feedback is very interesting, because i actually felt it could be too strong. I'd say the major difference between this and Pilgrimage would be that Pilgrimage depends on you having built your deck before, while this actively supports building it. It's more or less the counterpart.

Quick mockup:
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #507 on: August 19, 2016, 12:10:45 pm »
+2

Small idea:

Credit, $3, Event
Turn your Journey Token over (it starts face up). If it's face up, gain a card costing $5.

The basic idea here is to have something you can buy in pieces. Journey Token was just the best way i could think of to implement that. Originally i thought it should gain Gold, but that seemed like it would push Big Money strategies too much. Thoughts?
Seems slightly weakish perhaps?  Compare to Pilgrimage, which does a whole lot more on average for not much additional cost.
It should probably be "up to $5" for flexibility, at the very least, I'd think.

Well, Pilgrimage requires you to have and play the cards in the first place. I mean, often you'd trade your 3/4 opening for a 2/5, right? And if you have $6 and two buys, would you never go for a $5 instead of 2/4 or 3/3? I really think you would. Either way, i am sure you are right about the "up to". No need to enforce unflexibility.
Hmm.  As an opening I suspect you're right, it's decent enough.  I just wonder whether it's ever going to be bought after the first, say, 3 or 4 turns.
Even something as simple as putting a Buy on it might make it feel a bit better to me.  But that's just me.

Your feedback is very interesting, because i actually felt it could be too strong. I'd say the major difference between this and Pilgrimage would be that Pilgrimage depends on you having built your deck before, while this actively supports building it. It's more or less the counterpart.

Quick mockup:
img
Well sure.  Still, the cap on Pilgrimage potential is pretty huge.  Anyhow.

That's awesome art.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #508 on: August 19, 2016, 12:36:33 pm »
+2

Small idea:

Credit, $3, Event
Turn your Journey Token over (it starts face up). If it's face up, gain a card costing $5.

The basic idea here is to have something you can buy in pieces. Journey Token was just the best way i could think of to implement that. Originally i thought it should gain Gold, but that seemed like it would push Big Money strategies too much. Thoughts?
Seems slightly weakish perhaps?  Compare to Pilgrimage, which does a whole lot more on average for not much additional cost.
It should probably be "up to $5" for flexibility, at the very least, I'd think.

Well, Pilgrimage requires you to have and play the cards in the first place. I mean, often you'd trade your 3/4 opening for a 2/5, right? And if you have $6 and two buys, would you never go for a $5 instead of 2/4 or 3/3? I really think you would. Either way, i am sure you are right about the "up to". No need to enforce unflexibility.
Hmm.  As an opening I suspect you're right, it's decent enough.  I just wonder whether it's ever going to be bought after the first, say, 3 or 4 turns.
Even something as simple as putting a Buy on it might make it feel a bit better to me.  But that's just me.

Your feedback is very interesting, because i actually felt it could be too strong. I'd say the major difference between this and Pilgrimage would be that Pilgrimage depends on you having built your deck before, while this actively supports building it. It's more or less the counterpart.

Quick mockup:
img
Well sure.  Still, the cap on Pilgrimage potential is pretty huge.  Anyhow.

That's awesome art.
Rhys Griffiths is amazing. Have you seen Co0kiel0rd's suburb! Beautiful.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #509 on: August 19, 2016, 02:28:59 pm »
0

Small idea:

Credit, $3, Event
Turn your Journey Token over (it starts face up). If it's face up, gain a card costing $5.

The basic idea here is to have something you can buy in pieces. Journey Token was just the best way i could think of to implement that. Originally i thought it should gain Gold, but that seemed like it would push Big Money strategies too much. Thoughts?
Seems slightly weakish perhaps?  Compare to Pilgrimage, which does a whole lot more on average for not much additional cost.
It should probably be "up to $5" for flexibility, at the very least, I'd think.

Well, Pilgrimage requires you to have and play the cards in the first place. I mean, often you'd trade your 3/4 opening for a 2/5, right? And if you have $6 and two buys, would you never go for a $5 instead of 2/4 or 3/3? I really think you would. Either way, i am sure you are right about the "up to". No need to enforce unflexibility.
Hmm.  As an opening I suspect you're right, it's decent enough.  I just wonder whether it's ever going to be bought after the first, say, 3 or 4 turns.
Even something as simple as putting a Buy on it might make it feel a bit better to me.  But that's just me.

Your feedback is very interesting, because i actually felt it could be too strong. I'd say the major difference between this and Pilgrimage would be that Pilgrimage depends on you having built your deck before, while this actively supports building it. It's more or less the counterpart.

Quick mockup:
img
Well sure.  Still, the cap on Pilgrimage potential is pretty huge.  Anyhow.

That's awesome art.
Rhys Griffiths is amazing. Have you seen Co0kiel0rd's suburb! Beautiful.

Yes, it's really beautiful art. I'm astounded again and again of what gorgeous images you can find. By the way, i also updated the art of Invader (sorry, Nflickner) and will exchange the cards in the OP with variants that have the artist's name on them - i never bothered to do that, because the current versions in the template all have it, but i guess a little appreciation isn't too much to ask.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 02:30:22 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #510 on: August 19, 2016, 02:41:22 pm »
+1

Whyd you change the Invader art? I like the old art better.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #511 on: August 19, 2016, 03:07:18 pm »
+1

Whyd you change the Invader art? I like the old art better.

I don't know, i just didn't feel it with the computer graphics.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #512 on: August 20, 2016, 01:17:58 am »
0

Played two games with Parting today. It's nice in the opening or when greening, but during the actual game a Silver is almost always better because it will also help you get to $5, and keep doing that. Not sure how it fares in alt-VP boards. I guess some might like it, others not so much. I'm fine with this.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #513 on: August 26, 2016, 05:26:38 pm »
+4

I thought about split piles and that they all have a good interaction between the upper and lower half. This has a few implications for gameplay: If you miss your chance to get enough of the first half, getting the second won't be as useful to you, and as there are only five of them, they are gone in no time.

Now, that's cool to have, but i wonder why there isn't a single split pile card that has a negative interaction between the cards, where the first half is pretty good and will be picked up, with the second half harming those that got too many of them? It also means that, the more of the first half you got, the less likely you are to pick up the remaining ones.

I didn't have any clever ideas on what the second half should do when played, so consider that one a placeholder, and probably the first isn't all that strong. Either way, here's the general idea (Scholar is the top card):

« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 05:27:40 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #514 on: August 29, 2016, 12:27:31 pm »
+2

Ugh, i know, the name isn't that good. Who wants to read about a Scientist directly after reading about a Scholar, right? Either way:

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #515 on: August 29, 2016, 12:32:25 pm »
+1

How often is opening scientist a good move?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #516 on: August 29, 2016, 12:52:10 pm »
+1

Both the split piles seem too weak. Scientist seems good.
Edit: actually maybe scientist should give $4 instead of $3. With the debt you take it's strictly worse than mystic or a double lab,  an easy choice usually.
Double edit: Could you share your event and landmark templates?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 12:55:52 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #517 on: August 29, 2016, 01:11:54 pm »
+1

How often is opening scientist a good move?

I don't think it is. Most cards that cost high amounts of debt are bad at the beginning of the game. It's part of the concept, which is why i felt comfortable with a debt cost. It certainly compares favourably to Lab once you have a few good action cards in your deck, but at the start it's worse than Silver.

Edit: actually maybe scientist should give $4 instead of $3. With the debt you take it's strictly worse than mystic or a double lab,  an easy choice usually.

It's not strictly worse at all. If at least one of the three cards you draw is at least a Copper, it's strictly better than a Lab, while not costing more. <8> are also a lot easier to pay than $5 twice, too. The coin choice is actually only so you don't unwittingly get yourself in a situation where you can't pay back your debt, but i guess i could have left it out, too.

Both the split piles seem too weak.

I'm not sure why a Peddler for $2 is too weak, after all the consensus usually seems to be that it would be halfway balanced at $4. I mean, unless 5 Scholars are gone, there cannot be any Inquisitions that would be revealed, so that's cheap, save money. People buy Pearl Diver for $2, and often there won't be anything better to pick up at that price range, either way. Inquisition isn't hyper strong, but also doesn't compare terribly to Warehouse, a rather good $3. I considered having it draw and discard 3 cards, though, to make it a straight upgrade to WH. Also, don't forget it puts spokes between your opponents's wheels, which is half the fun with it. You usually don't want both Inquisition and Scholar in masses, but that's kind of the point. Also Inquisition gets stronger later in the game, which is also when it gets uncovered.

Could you share your event and landmark templates?

Do you use Gimp? I could send it to you per link, i guess. Would have to upload it somewhere, first. But sure.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 01:23:08 pm by Asper »
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tristan

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #518 on: August 29, 2016, 01:43:29 pm »
0

Scholar and Inquisition seem fine although not particular exciting.

Scientist is potentially too good for a Debt card. But the Debt you gotta take might be weak enough in the opening to make this actually a viable Double Lab.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #519 on: August 29, 2016, 01:43:44 pm »
+2

Scholar sounds way too strong. I'd double-open with it a lot. Even outside of Prizes, opening Tournament is pretty great for the Peddler effect. Maybe if the card draw were conditional as well, like it is on Tournament. Here, even if your opponent has an Inquisition, a bunch of Scholars in your hand won't hurt you.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #520 on: August 29, 2016, 01:56:09 pm »
+1

Thinking about it, maybe you have a point, ThetaSigma12. At the very least, you won't be able to do a deck that works without buying cards (by gaining them) in the way you would with Lab. On the other hand, i guess you could just play such a deck and spiral deeper and deeper into debt without a care... Hum.

Either way, here's the link to my Event/Landmark template.

Scholar sounds way too strong. I'd double-open with it a lot. Even outside of Prizes, opening Tournament is pretty great for the Peddler effect. Maybe if the card draw were conditional as well, like it is on Tournament. Here, even if your opponent has an Inquisition, a bunch of Scholars in your hand won't hurt you.

It's interesting that you feel it is overpowered. I will try to test it today and we'll see it. It's probably weaker in games with more than 2 players, where it could technically happen that someone opens with Inquisition. But i get where you come from.

Scholar and Inquisition seem fine although not particular exciting.

Scientist is potentially too good for a Debt card. But the Debt you gotta take might be weak enough in the opening to make this actually a viable Double Lab.

Another comparison would be Stables. Unlike with Stables, it does something even without a Treasure card in hand and won't spend all of it. Although you could overdo it and carry debt into the next round.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #521 on: August 29, 2016, 02:19:46 pm »
+1

Okay, more fleshed out comments:
Scholar seems a little weak. Peddler is good at , and this costs . That's significant, but not a huge price drop. The problem is it loses it's power too fast. At all 5 copies will empty pretty quickly, and at only inquisition is easily picked up. Once enough people get Inquisitions then Scholar is really bad.

More later.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #522 on: August 29, 2016, 03:59:55 pm »
+2

Okay, more fleshed out comments:
Scholar seems a little weak. Peddler is good at , and this costs . That's significant, but not a huge price drop. The problem is it loses it's power too fast. At all 5 copies will empty pretty quickly, and at only inquisition is easily picked up. Once enough people get Inquisitions then Scholar is really bad.

More later.

I don't think your opponent should have to buy a card to stop another card from being overpowered. With Tournament, that card is Province, which your opponent was probably going for anyway. I guess this is more like Young Witch, in that it's power can be reduced by your opponent buying another specific card. But also keep in mind that there's only 5 Inquisitions. You can get at least a couple of them, so there's not very many out there for your opponents to maybe have in their hand at the right time.

And also what if you just buy 3 Scholars and then stop? Your opponent basically has to buy a couple Scholars and a few Inquisitions just to stop your Peddlers from working. And Peddlers aren't all that strong that you want to buy a bunch of cards to stop them; but being able to buy them as your first 2-3 buys sounds like a really fast start.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #523 on: August 29, 2016, 04:14:55 pm »
+2



This image is amazing! I would classify this as some of the best art in Dominion.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #524 on: August 29, 2016, 04:21:06 pm »
+1

What if Scholar gave a bonus to evrybody who revealed one instead of a penalty to you?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #525 on: August 29, 2016, 04:46:49 pm »
0

Okay, more fleshed out comments:
Scholar seems a little weak. Peddler is good at , and this costs . That's significant, but not a huge price drop. The problem is it loses it's power too fast. At all 5 copies will empty pretty quickly, and at only inquisition is easily picked up. Once enough people get Inquisitions then Scholar is really bad.

More later.

I don't think your opponent should have to buy a card to stop another card from being overpowered. With Tournament, that card is Province, which your opponent was probably going for anyway. I guess this is more like Young Witch, in that it's power can be reduced by your opponent buying another specific card. But also keep in mind that there's only 5 Inquisitions. You can get at least a couple of them, so there's not very many out there for your opponents to maybe have in their hand at the right time.

And also what if you just buy 3 Scholars and then stop? Your opponent basically has to buy a couple Scholars and a few Inquisitions just to stop your Peddlers from working. And Peddlers aren't all that strong that you want to buy a bunch of cards to stop them; but being able to buy them as your first 2-3 buys sounds like a really fast start.

The fact that there are only 5 Inquisitions is indeed something that bothers me. However, if your opponent only buys 3 Scholars, well, then he only has 3 Scholars. That leaves two for you. In a way, skipping the card for other players to pick up auto-balances it. You go full Scholar, my Inquisition will hit you. You don't,  well, then you get less out of them. I made Inquisition chep to assure stopping Scholars has little opportunity cost, but the concept is still rough around the edges, i will admit. Maybe costing Scholar at $3 already solves the problem, or maybe i can find better ways to have Inquisition stop Scholar. It could be a Duration card and Scholar could check for Inquisitions in play - that would allow any Inquisition you manage to play to harm Scholar, not only those in your turn's starting hand. There might also be more room for interesting effects if Inquisition is a duration card. II'll think about ways to improve this concept.

About the problem of having to buy a card to stop other players - i feel most split piles have that problem, because the cards push each other and you can't let, e.g. Catapult stay uncontested. If you do, you end up with a kingdom where one of the piles is suddenly much more useful to your opponent than you. If you are not fast enough to get your share of the first half, you might as well skip the pile entirely - which makes 5 cards you can't contest without paying much more opportunity cost than your opponent. Unlike Rocks, Inquisition doesn't suck if you have no Scholar - in fact, it's better the fewer you have. So yes, using Inquisition to stop Scholar is kind of the concept, but i agree it's probably a bit unbalanced as is.

By the way, we played with Scientist today, and as its play effect is pretty much better than Stables, it seemed very strong. Maybe i should make the token optional and skip the coin part, i don't know.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #526 on: August 29, 2016, 04:51:12 pm »
+1

What if Scholar gave a bonus to evrybody who revealed one instead of a penalty to you?

I don't know. That would work, but i think most people are more comfortable with a card that is sometimes useless than with a card that sometimes helps their opponents. I do not lean in that direction.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #527 on: August 29, 2016, 05:23:14 pm »
+1



This image is amazing! I would classify this as some of the best art in Dominion.

Asper, do you have a link for this image? Could I use it for my own fan cards?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #528 on: August 29, 2016, 05:23:57 pm »
+3



[+3 Cards; +1 Action] was one of the first Debt cards, and well, it was crazy at {10}. I tentatively doubt the {1} on-play is a strong enough penalty.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #529 on: August 29, 2016, 05:43:17 pm »
0

This image is amazing! I would classify this as some of the best art in Dominion.

Asper, do you have a link for this image? Could I use it for my own fan cards?

The artist is Rhys Griffiths. Here's his deviantart page for the image. I have no right to say who may use this image and am myself basically just hoping that putting it on a fan card where the fandom is obvious would be okay for the artist.

[+3 Cards; +1 Action] was one of the first Debt cards, and well, it was crazy at {10}. I tentatively doubt the {1} on-play is a strong enough penalty.
Interesting. Although i would have assumed the {1} makes quite a bit of a difference at the start of the game, where that additional card you draw is quite likely to be Copper, making it a Lab (with a tiny bit more cycling), or even Estate, making it a Lab that costs you.
My main point of comparison was Stables. Stables is strong. Also, Scientist never fails and doesn't have to spend a Treasure whole (like Stables would "spend" you complete Silver by discarding it), so it's usually stronger than it (edge case: Potion). Then again, it does cost {8}, not $5. I do lean towards removing the money portion, however, because it adds flexibility where the card is strong enough already. Scientists really don't need to be Silvers once you drew your deck.
Either way, i can confirm it is rather strong, and probably you are right in your estimation. maybe i can implement the concept better - the general idea was just debt-for-benefit, and it doesn't have to be the mighty draw it is right now.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 05:44:51 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #530 on: August 29, 2016, 05:58:45 pm »
+2

Thanks, Asper!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #531 on: August 30, 2016, 06:11:15 am »
0

I think that the coin cost estimate (of course this is anything but precise and jsut a mental tool as we are so used to coin costs) of 8D cards is 6$. So at the first glance it seems to be OK as it is not much stronger but more expensive than Stables during the early game. But unlike Stables which sucks in games with decent trashing Scientist is good in nearly all Kingdoms (Lab is only bad in the presence of draw to X cards).
I'd test it at 8D and 9D.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #532 on: August 30, 2016, 03:03:51 pm »
+3

So, how would Scientist looks as an inferior Lab instead of a superior one?

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #533 on: August 30, 2016, 03:06:42 pm »
+1

So, how would Scientist looks as an inferior Lab instead of a superior one?



My instinct says it would be on the weak side, but it might be just fine. It's kind of like a reverse Oasis... you increase your handsize at the cost of a coin; instead of decreasing your handsize to get a coin.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #534 on: August 30, 2016, 03:20:25 pm »
+1

So, how would Scientist looks as an inferior Lab instead of a superior one?



Could be interesting. If it seems weak at $3, it might be OK at $2.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #535 on: August 30, 2016, 05:52:56 pm »
0

As you both suspect it's weak, i could try it as a cantrip that allows you to take {1} for +1 Card, so you'll never be sorry you played it at all. Sadly, that would also create an additional decision to make.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #536 on: August 30, 2016, 05:57:59 pm »
+2

As you both suspect it's weak, i could try it as a cantrip that allows you to take {1} for +1 Card, so you'll never be sorry you played it at all. Sadly, that would also create an additional decision to make.

Nah, I think this version (at either $3 or $2) is way better than giving you the choice.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #537 on: August 30, 2016, 07:01:13 pm »
0

As you both suspect it's weak, i could try it as a cantrip that allows you to take {1} for +1 Card, so you'll never be sorry you played it at all. Sadly, that would also create an additional decision to make.

Nah, I think this version (at either $3 or $2) is way better than giving you the choice.

The more i think about it, the more i feel $2 should be right. It's not better than a bare cantrip at the start and can actually hurt you in a junked deck, while it's highest possible outcome is still worse than Lab.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #538 on: August 30, 2016, 09:24:07 pm »
+1

Maybe tie Debt to the +1 Action?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 09:28:38 pm by NoMoreFun »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #539 on: August 30, 2016, 10:22:33 pm »
0

Maybe tie Debt to the +1 Action?

That's definitely better than tying it to the extra card... Hm. Interesting.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #540 on: August 31, 2016, 09:22:17 pm »
+1



I have no idea how strong this is.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #541 on: August 31, 2016, 09:36:35 pm »
+2

kind of... reverse-Capital. Maybe.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #542 on: August 31, 2016, 09:56:06 pm »
+1

kind of... reverse-Capital. Maybe.

I named it appropriately ;)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #543 on: August 31, 2016, 09:56:45 pm »
+4

I like your cards Asper
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #544 on: August 31, 2016, 09:58:34 pm »
+4

I like your cards Asper

I like that you like my cards, Roadrunner.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #545 on: August 31, 2016, 10:04:39 pm »
+3

I like your cards Asper

I like that you like my cards, Roadrunner.
I'm glad you didn't leave the forums like you said you would
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #546 on: August 31, 2016, 10:10:25 pm »
+2

I like your cards Asper

I like that you like my cards, Roadrunner.
I'm glad you didn't leave the forums like you said you would

I'm not sure i'm glad. Currently it's 04:00 in the morning and i have two chapters of my storytelling contract yet to write. Instead i'm posting an event.



About the Event: This is another one from the "this was just too obvious not to try" fraction. Probably LastFootnote already experienced something similar and it was no fun in playtesting. If not, hooray, finally you can have a game where junkers and trashers are actually skippable. On the other hand, maybe it helps big money, who knows. We wouldn't like that, would we?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #547 on: August 31, 2016, 10:41:43 pm »
+2

I like your cards Asper

I like that you like my cards, Roadrunner.
I'm glad you didn't leave the forums like you said you would
I'm so glad you didn't leave.  I think your cards are f#$&ing real.  I think you have a great knack at coming up with simple, balanced cards that nevertheless unlock new possibilities that have never been seen before.  Digging your two latest ones alot
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #548 on: August 31, 2016, 10:50:44 pm »
+4

Asper, you are the best at finding art. And also you continue to make cool cards.

I don't think there was anything like Blessing tested. Like Borrow, it's almost more of a rule change than an Event. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Anyway it's cool that it's simple. It's not so exciting, but they can't all be the best Event ever.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #549 on: September 01, 2016, 12:11:49 am »
+1

I like your cards Asper

I like that you like my cards, Roadrunner.
I'm glad you didn't leave the forums like you said you would
I'm so glad you didn't leave.  I think your cards are f#$&ing real.  I think you have a great knack at coming up with simple, balanced cards that nevertheless unlock new possibilities that have never been seen before.  Digging your two latest ones alot

This kind of feedback makes me really happy. It's 06:00 in the morning now and i'm not even tired yet. But i feel good. Thank you for that :)


Asper, you are the best at finding art. And also you continue to make cool cards.

I don't think there was anything like Blessing tested. Like Borrow, it's almost more of a rule change than an Event. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Anyway it's cool that it's simple. It's not so exciting, but they can't all be the best Event ever.

Thank you :)
I even tried to make the font size bigger for the latest ones. Also, peace with Empires, hooray. Looking back, i was really insufferable when that expansion was revealed. I intend to be less insufferable from now on.

About Blessing, having it be a rule change was what i had in mind. I considered costing it at $1 once, or not giving it +1 Buy, but didn't do those specifically because it went against that premise.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #550 on: September 01, 2016, 12:16:02 am »
+1

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.

I like Investor too. It isn't exciting, and is pretty similar in usage to Capital, but it is something that would definitely be useful on the right board, but doesn't seem like an automatic buy. Then again, maybe it is.  It shares some space with Tactician too I just realized.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #551 on: September 01, 2016, 12:28:11 am »
0

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.

I like Investor too. It isn't exciting, and is pretty similar in usage to Capital, but it is something that would definitely be useful on the right board, but doesn't seem like an automatic buy. Then again, maybe it is.  It shares some space with Tactician too I just realized.

I did not think much about investor. Actually the idea to give both tokens at once started as something i would give to other players as a drawback, but that seemed too complicated. The Tactician comparison is actually pretty good, i didn't consider that. About Capital, maybe it is a bit more similar than i thought. The order is different, but you will alternate spending money and paying off debt. Probably it's also much too strong for $4.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #552 on: September 01, 2016, 12:39:38 am »
0

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.
The reason that this Event would be more interesting at a cost of 1 or 2 is simply Bonfire. Bonfire is "terminal" and costs 3 and I cannot imagine a situation in which you would ever go for Bonfire in the presence of Blessing. So Blessing is overpowered and should cost 1 or 2.
The usual caveat is of course that if you want to emulate a rule change with a zero cost Event these balance and power considerations are moot.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #553 on: September 01, 2016, 01:00:27 am »
+1

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.

I like Investor too. It isn't exciting, and is pretty similar in usage to Capital, but it is something that would definitely be useful on the right board, but doesn't seem like an automatic buy. Then again, maybe it is.  It shares some space with Tactician too I just realized.

I did not think much about investor. Actually the idea to give both tokens at once started as something i would give to other players as a drawback, but that seemed too complicated. The Tactician comparison is actually pretty good, i didn't consider that. About Capital, maybe it is a bit more similar than i thought. The order is different, but you will alternate spending money and paying off debt. Probably it's also much too strong for $4.

One nice thing is that if it is too strong, it is probably easy to nerf by reducing the number of tokens it gives out.  If it is still too strong, you could even give like 3 debt/2 coin tokens.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #554 on: September 01, 2016, 01:02:13 am »
+1

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.
The reason that this Event would be more interesting at a cost of 1 or 2 is simply Bonfire. Bonfire is "terminal" and costs 3 and I cannot imagine a situation in which you would ever go for Bonfire in the presence of Blessing. So Blessing is overpowered and should cost 1 or 2.
The usual caveat is of course that if you want to emulate a rule change with a zero cost Event these balance and power considerations are moot.

I mean Blessing is only once per turn, so any situation where Bonfire is good move, you would probably still use it to trash even faster.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #555 on: September 01, 2016, 02:23:24 am »
+3

Ugh, i know, the name isn't that good. Who wants to read about a Scientist directly after reading about a Scholar, right? Either way:



What about making it give 1 Debt per scientist in play? And just keep it as a straight double lab. Maybe that would be enough to balance it out. I like cards with strong effects.



About the Event: This is another one from the "this was just too obvious not to try" fraction. Probably LastFootnote already experienced something similar and it was no fun in playtesting. If not, hooray, finally you can have a game where junkers and trashers are actually skippable. On the other hand, maybe it helps big money, who knows. We wouldn't like that, would we?

I kinda wish there were some cost associated to this. Borrow has one, for example, and so does Alms, etc. It doesn't have to be a coin cost. Maybe something like adding a "discard a card from your hand" before the trashing.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #556 on: September 01, 2016, 03:22:48 am »
0

Maybe something like adding a "discard a card from your hand" before the trashing.
It would have to be conditional though "Discard a card from your hand. If you did, trash a card from your hand.". Otherwise you could e.g. play all Treasures but 1 Copper and then trash the Copper from your hand without having to "pay" the discard cost.
I like the idea. Early on it could be cheaper than a coin cost of 1 as you'd still have junk to discard but as you quickly thin your deck with Blessing you will have to discard something better than Copper during the later part of the game which is not a big issue as trashing becomes weaker anyway.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 03:24:24 am by tristan »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #557 on: September 01, 2016, 03:29:14 am »
+1

Ugh, i know, the name isn't that good. Who wants to read about a Scientist directly after reading about a Scholar, right? Either way:


What about making it give 1 Debt per scientist in play? And just keep it as a straight double lab. Maybe that would be enough to balance it out. I like cards with strong effects.

I will certainly drop the money part, but somehow i am more attracted to the "small Lab" variant right now, because it might be easier to balance (and putting debt on both the cost and the effect seems a bit meh to me).

About the Event: This is another one from the "this was just too obvious not to try" fraction. Probably LastFootnote already experienced something similar and it was no fun in playtesting. If not, hooray, finally you can have a game where junkers and trashers are actually skippable. On the other hand, maybe it helps big money, who knows. We wouldn't like that, would we?

I kinda wish there were some cost associated to this. Borrow has one, for example, and so does Alms, etc. It doesn't have to be a coin cost. Maybe something like adding a "discard a card from your hand" before the trashing.

Well, i always considered Alms' effect to be a rule change along the lines of "You'll never have less than $4 this game" - not an Event tht said "get a free $4 under certain conditions". Borrow has a cost, that's true - i guess "you always have $1 more" didn't seem fun. Maybe it would have been, who knows. Delve is another one which costs absolutely nothing, and is still fine. The thing with Blessing is, it's not supposed to be an interesting decision whether you buy Blessing or not. The interesting decision is supposed to be what cards you go for on a Blessing board.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #558 on: September 01, 2016, 10:51:33 am »
+1

Maybe something like adding a "discard a card from your hand" before the trashing.
It would have to be conditional though "Discard a card from your hand. If you did, trash a card from your hand.". Otherwise you could e.g. play all Treasures but 1 Copper and then trash the Copper from your hand without having to "pay" the discard cost.
I like the idea. Early on it could be cheaper than a coin cost of 1 as you'd still have junk to discard but as you quickly thin your deck with Blessing you will have to discard something better than Copper during the later part of the game which is not a big issue as trashing becomes weaker anyway.

Well, the only way how you could fail to discard a card when instructed to would be if your hand is empty, and then you couldn't trash a card either way (provided discard happens before trash). I'll try Blessing as is first. If i find it affects the game in an unfun way, i might change or drop it. Right now i feel that "every turn, i can trash a card from my hand" is a nice and easy thing to remember, but which still has strong implications on the board.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #559 on: September 01, 2016, 05:05:39 pm »
+1

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.
The reason that this Event would be more interesting at a cost of 1 or 2 is simply Bonfire. Bonfire is "terminal" and costs 3 and I cannot imagine a situation in which you would ever go for Bonfire in the presence of Blessing. So Blessing is overpowered and should cost 1 or 2.
The usual caveat is of course that if you want to emulate a rule change with a zero cost Event these balance and power considerations are moot.
Blessing isn't to overpowered. It takes at least ten turns to trash all your starting cards.
I would consider opening blessing, bonfire /silver variant on a three/four.
Another cool thing you could do is take off both the +buy and the once per turn part.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #560 on: September 01, 2016, 05:11:39 pm »
+1

To be honest, I always thought you would make Town/Road into a split pile once empires came out. Tribunal/Scholar does seem cool though.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #561 on: September 01, 2016, 05:23:38 pm »
0

To be honest, I always thought you would make Town/Road into a split pile once empires came out. Tribunal/Scholar does seem cool though.

Huh, it's not Tribunal. I think i once had a card called Tribunal that used that image.

I kind of like that you can go for Town just to get a Village, and that get Road for free. Road is really not such a power card. It does, however, go totally bananas with a +1 Action token - s that one can only be put on supply piles, i prefer the current version. Of course Champion does the same, but i am willing to accept that as it is only a slight increase of ludicrousness from town-less Champion. I rarely play with Champion, to be honest, because the Page line also contains Warrior, which i don't want to play with.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #562 on: September 01, 2016, 05:59:29 pm »
+1

To be honest, I always thought you would make Town/Road into a split pile once empires came out. Tribunal/Scholar does seem cool though.

Huh, it's not Tribunal. I think i once had a card called Tribunal that used that image.

I kind of like that you can go for Town just to get a Village, and that get Road for free. Road is really not such a power card. It does, however, go totally bananas with a +1 Action token - s that one can only be put on supply piles, i prefer the current version. Of course Champion does the same, but i am willing to accept that as it is only a slight increase of ludicrousness from town-less Champion. I rarely play with Champion, to be honest, because the Page line also contains Warrior, which i don't want to play with.
Oh yeah, it's Inquisition. I played a game or 2 with Tribunal though, so now that name is stuck.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #563 on: September 02, 2016, 12:50:35 am »
0

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.
The reason that this Event would be more interesting at a cost of 1 or 2 is simply Bonfire. Bonfire is "terminal" and costs 3 and I cannot imagine a situation in which you would ever go for Bonfire in the presence of Blessing. So Blessing is overpowered and should cost 1 or 2.
The usual caveat is of course that if you want to emulate a rule change with a zero cost Event these balance and power considerations are moot.
Blessing isn't to overpowered. It takes at least ten turns to trash all your starting cards.
Ten turns to start all your starting hands is incredibly quick. Only multi-trashers like Chapel or Remak can beat that but with cantrip trashers like Junk Dealer you usually need longer

It would be overpowered relative to Bonfire at a cost of 0 instead of 1 or 2 if it were intended to be an ordinary Event.
But as it is meant to be an Event that simulated a rule change power and balance considerations are moot.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #564 on: September 02, 2016, 02:35:06 am »
0

Blessing seems cool.  My gut reaction is that it would be more interesting at $1 since you have a trade off to consider.  It is still pretty automatic, but if there isn't a $2 worth gaining, you probably don't do this on your opening 3C2E turn.
The reason that this Event would be more interesting at a cost of 1 or 2 is simply Bonfire. Bonfire is "terminal" and costs 3 and I cannot imagine a situation in which you would ever go for Bonfire in the presence of Blessing. So Blessing is overpowered and should cost 1 or 2.
The usual caveat is of course that if you want to emulate a rule change with a zero cost Event these balance and power considerations are moot.
Blessing isn't to overpowered. It takes at least ten turns to trash all your starting cards.
Ten turns to start all your starting hands is incredibly quick. Only multi-trashers like Chapel or Remak can beat that but with cantrip trashers like Junk Dealer you usually need longer

It would be overpowered relative to Bonfire at a cost of 0 instead of 1 or 2 if it were intended to be an ordinary Event.
But as it is meant to be an Event that simulated a rule change power and balance considerations are moot.

It's not even Bonfire i would care about, to be honest. You can get Bonfire in addition to Blessing, and trashing 3 cards instead of 1 is a pretty huge boost. Plan is more of a loser here.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #565 on: September 02, 2016, 04:16:25 pm »
0

Another small remark about the cost of Blessing: If you have a 5 Coppers in hand, you can't both trash a Copper and buy a $5. So if the only junk you have in hand is Copper, Blessing at least has you choose whether you play or trash that. Having -$1 for 7 turns isn't the world, but it's not free.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #566 on: September 02, 2016, 04:23:40 pm »
+2

Another small remark about the cost of Blessing: If you have a 5 Coppers in hand, you can't both trash a Copper and buy a $5. So if the only junk you have in hand is Copper, Blessing at least has you choose whether you play or trash that. Having -$1 for 7 turns isn't the world, but it's not free.

I don't think Blessing makes sense as an event. It feels much more like a Landmark, except that Landmarks by convention always deal with VP. But it's more of just a rule change that exists for a given game, like Shelters or Colonies, than an event you should have to buy. ("During this game, each player may trash 1 card in their hand during each of their buy phases").

I guess the exception is Debt. But I don't know if it's a good thing that this becomes unavailable if you have Debt.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #567 on: September 02, 2016, 05:27:59 pm »
+3

Another small remark about the cost of Blessing: If you have a 5 Coppers in hand, you can't both trash a Copper and buy a $5. So if the only junk you have in hand is Copper, Blessing at least has you choose whether you play or trash that. Having -$1 for 7 turns isn't the world, but it's not free.

I don't think Blessing makes sense as an event. It feels much more like a Landmark, except that Landmarks by convention always deal with VP. But it's more of just a rule change that exists for a given game, like Shelters or Colonies, than an event you should have to buy. ("During this game, each player may trash 1 card in their hand during each of their buy phases").

I guess the exception is Debt. But I don't know if it's a good thing that this becomes unavailable if you have Debt.

Well, Alms and Advance are unavailable when you have Debt, too. Even Borrow is. Man, i have debt and can't borrow money, what's up with that? And Donald X himself has described Alms like this on the Wiki:
Quote
As you can see instead it is a more sane thing that just means, you're never doing worse than a $4.
To me this means, Alms is a rules change. Events can be rule changes. Some of my favourite Events are.

Now you can argue Alms doesn't give a buy, so it's basically skipping your card buy for an Event buy - it's not additional. And right, obviously at some point you're going to play with someone who buys a Silver and then remembers and says "Oh, and oops, i trash this card with Blessing". And then you'll have to decide whether you want to argue with him that he couldn't have done that, because he would have had to buy Blessing first to have that additional buy, etc.. Let's just say i don't take things like this serious enough to worry about them. If i did, i would have to make the rule change in non-Event form and probably invent a new type of card-shaped-thing. Instead i just assume that people either play for fun and accept Blessing to be basically a rule change, or that they will take the game serious and be fine with an Event that has an effect that approaches a rule change as long as the players don't forget to buy it first. Either way, neither is worth breaking it for me.

In the end, maybe it's really just that i don't share your opinion that "rule changes" wouldn't belong on events - as i mentioned, i think several official events are basically just that.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #568 on: September 02, 2016, 05:43:18 pm »
+2

All that said and done, like save, I think it gets even more interesting/difficult if it costs $1. Or, well <1>. Or: 'Trash a card. Gain <1> during clean up.' Or something.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #569 on: September 02, 2016, 06:50:28 pm »
0

All that said and done, like save, I think it gets even more interesting/difficult if it costs $1. Or, well <1>. Or: 'Trash a card. Gain <1> during clean up.' Or something.

I guess the problem here lies with the fact that i don't want it to be difficult. I want it to be free. I assume Save has to cost something for fun reasons. Maybe getting $7 and being able to buy Gold and topdeck Copper supports Big Money to an unfun extend, i don't know. Either way, i will of course consider alternatives if the Event should be boring (most likely i'll throw it away). However, as it has rather strong implications on the board and which decisions you make, either way, i don't think it adds anything when buying the Event itself is a conscious decision. In fact, the more you have to decide whether to get the Event, the less it's a rule change, and that implies it matters less for the board in general, which takes away part of the first kind of decision (which general strategy you go for). Also, if it costs something, it's only a small step to Blessing being just Bonfire II.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #570 on: September 02, 2016, 07:03:18 pm »
0

Let's consider Blessing at $1. How much does it cost me to trash a Copper with Blessing? Yes, $1, but don't forget that i didn't play the Copper. So, $2. But trashing Coppers with an overhead of $1, that's exactly what Bonfire does. Sure, there i can't trash Estates, and here i have to pay the overhead for every single Copper, not sets of two. But still, it's much too similar for me. Also i don't like the implication for the opening. Trash 2 Estates, have a $3 and a $2 turn? Yuk. Trash one Estate, have a $5 and a $1 turn? Nice. I prefer a variant that pushes the 3/4 opening instead, as that's quite often the worse one, either way.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #571 on: September 02, 2016, 11:08:15 pm »
+2

Another cool thing you could do is take off both the +buy and the once per turn part.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #572 on: September 03, 2016, 12:19:57 am »
+6

I'm sorry i have to say this, but no. I don't want the event to be witty or requiring clever play. I don't want you to lose an additional $1, or have to decide between buying it or another card. I want it to be straightforward, in your face, no shennanigans, "you can trash a card per turn for free". And it will stay like this until i play it. And if i find that's no fun, well, i guess it wasn't a good idea.

We have trashers that cost something. Every trasher costs something. I want free trashing. We don't have free trashing yet. And trashing dominates. Junking dominates. Can you ever skip Witch? No, you can't. Can you ever skip Chapel? No, you can't. (I know this isn't actually true). Donald X himself has stated once that he wasn't aware how extremely strong cursing and trashing are, and that he might have thought about ways to "remedy" that if he had noticed in time. Well, we all know that Dominion is the way it is, and trashing and cursing just are that important.

The event is the attempt to open up another world of Dominion. Not to replace the old one, heavens no. Blessing won't be in many games. But when it's there, i want Dominion to be a game where you can a bit more often consider skipping Witch. A world where you can consider skipping Chapel. And i don't want this world to be available to only those that produce excess money, or those with excess cards, or those with excess buys. I want it for everyone.

If somebody plays a game with Blessing and says, "man, that's genuinely unfun", i'm all ears. But if the worst you can say is "Well, it played really different", then cool, because that's what it's about. Nobody minds Chapel being just "trash up to 4 cards". It's not "discard X, trash Y". Chapel isn't interesting. The games Chapel creates are.

I have made it "once per turn" to make sure neither trashing nor junking become really useless. You can still trash faster with Junk Dealer. You can still keep somebody busy using his Blessings for your Curses. But it's a different game now, and you don't have to "pull something off" to have that. That's how i want it. No "pulling it off".

I know i'm a lame guy who orders his pizza with just salami, even if he could have had additional ham for free. When i want a chocolate muffin and somebody puts sprinkles on it, i say "I would have mentioned if i had wanted sprinkles". If i want an event that trashes a card per turn for free, then that's what i want. I will gladly offer everybody the template to do their own version if they prefer it different. But this is my version. Let me have it without sprinkles.

Edit: Also, i really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings with this. But please try it out as is, or give me the time to do that, before changing it to be more clever. Please.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 12:30:06 am by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #573 on: September 03, 2016, 12:29:02 am »
0

Also, i realize i'm ungrateful posting things like above. I know you all are giving me feedback to help me improve my cards, not to spite me or pressure me into changing. And nobody's paying you to do that, either. So thank you, sincerely.

Edited because staying awake until 10 in the morning doesn't improve your writing skills...
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 04:04:56 am by Asper »
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tristan

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #574 on: September 03, 2016, 01:04:56 am »
+1

Another small remark about the cost of Blessing: If you have a 5 Coppers in hand, you can't both trash a Copper and buy a $5. So if the only junk you have in hand is Copper, Blessing at least has you choose whether you play or trash that. Having -$1 for 7 turns isn't the world, but it's not free.

I don't think Blessing makes sense as an event.
Delve is also an Event that simulates a rule change and as you pointed out, Landmarks are not global permaevents but global permaevents that relate to VPs so you cannot implement a rule change via Landmarks.


Let's consider Blessing at $1. How much does it cost me to trash a Copper with Blessing? Yes, $1, but don't forget that i didn't play the Copper. So, $2. But trashing Coppers with an overhead of $1, that's exactly what Bonfire does. Sure, there i can't trash Estates, and here i have to pay the overhead for every single Copper, not sets of two. But still, it's much too similar for me. Also i don't like the implication for the opening. Trash 2 Estates, have a $3 and a $2 turn? Yuk. Trash one Estate, have a $5 and a $1 turn? Nice. I prefer a variant that pushes the 3/4 opening instead, as that's quite often the worse one, either way.
Great analysis. I totally agree with you now that you should test this Event at a cost of zero.


I'm sorry i have to say this, but no. I don't want the event to be witty or requiring clever play. I don't want you to lose an additional $1, or have to decide between buying it or another card. I want it to be straightforward, in your face, no shennanigans, "you can trash a card per turn for free". And it will stay like this until i play it. And if i find that's no fun, well, i guess it wasn't a good idea.
I think this is partly influenced by game design philosophy. Do you want your game to be complex due to rule and play complexity (e.g. wargames or basically anything from 'What's your Game') or complex in spite of simple rules (Knizia, Kramer, abstracts like Chess)?
In general I am agnostic about this but in the case of DOminion I lean more towards complex cards while being very well aware that more often than not simpler cards achieve much more in terms of making the game more complex.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #575 on: September 03, 2016, 08:01:12 am »
+1

I agree with all of this, and like blessing how it is. Thanks Asper!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #576 on: September 03, 2016, 08:18:34 am »
+1

I agree with all of this, and like blessing how it is. Thanks Asper!

I thank you. I mean, i really appreciate feedback. Several of my cards started in a vastly different form before the forum helped me change them to how they are now. It's just that this time it felt a bit like "Asper can't really want that one thing, maybe my idea will help him make it that other thing", when that one thing was indeed what i wanted. Again, i hope nobody feels their feedback isn't appreciated.

That said, i really hope to be able and test Blessing these days.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #577 on: September 03, 2016, 09:21:02 am »
+1

Does blessing feel different enough from a double amulet shuffle luck opening?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #578 on: September 03, 2016, 10:44:45 am »
+1

Does blessing feel different enough from a double amulet shuffle luck opening?
Yes.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #579 on: September 03, 2016, 10:50:47 am »
+1

On a side note, will the OP be updated soon?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #580 on: September 03, 2016, 12:23:31 pm »
+2

I don't find your rebuttles to be rude or dismissive at all! I think you did a great job of making your case.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #581 on: September 03, 2016, 12:31:54 pm »
+5

When i want a chocolate muffin and somebody puts sprinkles on it, i say "I would have mentioned if i had wanted sprinkles".
Okay, this is crazy. Where do you go to get your muffins? Muffins have to be different than cupcakes, or else we can't eat them for breakfast. What type of Starbuck's worker would have the audacity to put sprinkles on your muffin? Especially if it was a breakfast muffin! You're getting a chocolate muffin at like eight in the morning and they think 'hmmm, it's not too early for little pieces of brightly colored sugar and plastic!' Then they spray your muffin with preservative filled sugar bombs and say 'have a nice day!' How can you have a nice day knowing that every bite you take gives you another cavity? Knowing that even though you're ingesting pure sugar, it still doesn't taste like anything? I feel bad for Asper.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #582 on: September 03, 2016, 12:32:56 pm »
+1

Does blessing feel different enough from a double amulet shuffle luck opening?
Yes.

Than I guess it has it's place. That was my main worry.

Although we could also have an event then that, for example, said:
 'Prostitution - $0
Once per turn: +$1.'
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #583 on: September 03, 2016, 06:48:35 pm »
+1

Does blessing feel different enough from a double amulet shuffle luck opening?
Yes.

Than I guess it has it's place. That was my main worry.

Although we could also have an event then that, for example, said:
 'Prostitution - $0
Once per turn: +$1.'

I already mentioned such an event:
Borrow has a cost, that's true - i guess "you always have $1 more" didn't seem fun. Maybe it would have been, who knows.

I guess the difference here lies with how interesting it makes the game. Chapel's extremely strong trashing is overpowered, but it leads to fun games, nonetheless, because by itself you don't win using Chapel. Rebuild is also extremely strong, but it's no fun (for a lot of people, including me), because it does win you the game. Let's consider these two:

SuperBlessing, $0, Event
+1 Buy
Once per turn.
Trash any number of cards from your hand.

SuperBorrow, $0, Event
+1 Buy
Once per turn.
+$8

I guess it's clear that the first one warps the game, but doesn't necessarily break it (even though as i mentioned it makes Cursers and junkers mostly moot, which was more than i wanted). The second one makes the game dull and end after 4 turns.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #584 on: September 03, 2016, 06:53:56 pm »
+2

Although we could also have an event then that, for example, said:
 'Prostitution - $0
Once per turn: +$1.
Turn your journey token over. If it's face-up, gain an STD.'
FTFY.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #585 on: September 04, 2016, 09:22:05 am »
+2

Did you ever play with my Slave Trade card? Its In-games-using-this gives players the ability to trash Coppers "for free," but is given a condition so players will need to take some time to make use of it.
Blessing's ability creates an interesting effect on the game, but I think it will prove more compelling with a condition (though not necessarily a cost), since throwing out 2 of your 3 starting Estates by turn 3 is going to be such a massive game accelerator.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #586 on: September 04, 2016, 11:30:17 am »
+2

I played a game with ThetaSigma yesterday, with this kingdom:

Peddler
Meadow
Altar
Treasury
Cutpurse
Investor (3 of each token)
Dungeon
Herbalist
Scientist ($2 version)
Decree

Lost Arts
Blessing

I gave an embarressing performance, as i forgot Dungeon gives an action (playing Cutpurse once instead, once, and putting the Action token on it), and had 12 Provinces in the supply until 6 were gained and i noticed my error. Oops, the game is actually almost over. It's not surprising that, during my very first turn, i also tried to buy Silver and then trash a card. Sorry again for this, Theta. I hope i can be a less terrible opponent next time. Maybe sleeping 6+ hours will help.

After the first mistake Blessing seemed perfectly fine. I will leave it as is. If somebody wants sprinkles, i can give you the template. Only Theta used Investor and liked it. It worked unexpectedly well. Scientist was used by us both, though i picked it up later. It seemed also really fine. All in all, this game convinced me to leave Blessing as is if anything.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #587 on: September 04, 2016, 11:36:22 am »
+1

I think investor might be good at 2 coin tokens.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #588 on: September 04, 2016, 12:13:34 pm »
0

I think investor might be good at 2 coin tokens.

Well, i'm sure 4 were too much, but i'm not sure whether 2 are enough. Butcher gives 2 and costs $5, but it also doesn't slow you down while getting them and offers trash-for-benefit.

Did you ever play with my Slave Trade card? Its In-games-using-this gives players the ability to trash Coppers "for free," but is given a condition so players will need to take some time to make use of it.
Blessing's ability creates an interesting effect on the game, but I think it will prove more compelling with a condition (though not necessarily a cost), since throwing out 2 of your 3 starting Estates by turn 3 is going to be such a massive game accelerator.

I think i did, but because it only trashes Copper, it's more similar to Bonfire.



I really have an understanding problem here, i think. Why is unconditionally accelerating everyone's game a thing that must be avoided? Is it balancing? But everybody gets it, always. Is it interestingness? But why is another thing that costs something and trashes more interesting than "let's play this variant where you can do X"? I really do not understand. Maybe somebody feels like explaining their motivation. I might understand your point better that way. Because right now i feel it's more about being scared of how much the Event changes the game, and to be honest, that makes me even more certain i want to have it exactly as is.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #589 on: September 04, 2016, 03:40:33 pm »
+1

On a side note, will the OP be updated soon?



(That's supposed to mean: "Yes, i just did that")
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #590 on: September 04, 2016, 05:08:09 pm »
+1

Report seems cool.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #591 on: September 04, 2016, 06:39:53 pm »
0

Report seems cool.

Thanks. I intended to keep it a secret until after the Event contest was done, but when you asked to update the VP, i didn't want to make an additional TS-Template just to hide it, so there it is. It's a Chancellor event, just that Chancellor is a mere bonus to its main ability. <8> might be a bit much, i guess <7> would still be okay. Maybe a non-debt cost would be even better, but i guess that depends on the card you gain.



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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #592 on: September 04, 2016, 07:31:14 pm »
+1

Report seems cool.

Thanks. I intended to keep it a secret until after the Event contest was done, but when you asked to update the VP, i didn't want to make an additional TS-Template just to hide it, so there it is. It's a Chancellor event, just that Chancellor is a mere bonus to its main ability. <8> might be a bit much, i guess <7> would still be okay. Maybe a non-debt cost would be even better, but i guess that depends on the card you gain.


Hmm, have you considered making the gained card worth up to 6?  I like the idea, but I don't think I would ever buy it.  It may be worth it, but it doesn't feeeeel worth it, at least to me.  If it was a card costing up to 6, it would tip the scale for me to buy it, but not be overpowered (I don't think at least). 
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #593 on: September 05, 2016, 01:09:25 am »
0

I think this is fine at its price. cards are roughly equivalent to a cost of (Overlord is the most clear cut case) but this Event debtifies all 5s and has the Chancellor bonus which has to be worth something.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #594 on: September 05, 2016, 05:40:17 am »
+1

I like Report as well, propably a must buy on a 3/4 opening, though. I do not think you should be able to gain cards costing . The difference between and is that you cannot open with a card barring edge cases, during the course of the game the difference tends to become marginal. The Chancellor effect on this card with the strong gaining is huge early on as well. Comparing Report to Annex (gain a Duchy and shuffle all but up to 5 cards into your deck for ), I do not think Report needs a buff anyway.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #595 on: September 05, 2016, 07:35:31 am »
+1

Report trades Overlord's flexbility for a chance at getting to your $5 sooner, and may be used near the endgame for Duchies. Doesn't seem like it adds much but probably ok for an event. Maybe if the $5 was top decked; that would make openings even more weird and the Duchy gaining less enticing compared to Annex (but still valid).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #596 on: September 05, 2016, 08:04:18 am »
0

Report seems cool.
update the VP
Just leaked that another landmark is coming soon.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #597 on: September 05, 2016, 08:22:30 am »
+1

I like Report as well, propably a must buy on a 3/4 opening, though. I do not think you should be able to gain cards costing . The difference between and is that you cannot open with a card barring edge cases, during the course of the game the difference tends to become marginal. The Chancellor effect on this card with the strong gaining is huge early on as well. Comparing Report to Annex (gain a Duchy and shuffle all but up to 5 cards into your deck for ), I do not think Report needs a buff anyway.

I felt that Report was rather different than Annex. There you gain a card you don't want in your shuffle and the Events keeps it out of it. Here you can gain cards you want in your shuffle and the Event puts it in. In some way, Annex is even a (supporting) strategy: You gain Duchies that don't go into your deck immediately. I don't see Report doing that.

It's true that Report as well as Parting go in a similar niche, opening-wise, as both allow $3/$4 openings to be $5 openings. You can not usually open with a Gold, except of course that there are already cards which change that (Baker, for example). Allowing to gain a Gold would probably be a rather big difference, as the Gold would help you pay back that debt. Given Wedding costs $4<3>, which is neither strictly less nor more, but gives a VP (compare Chancellor, a weak $3, and Monument, a standard $4), maybe that would still be fine.

Report trades Overlord's flexbility for a chance at getting to your $5 sooner, and may be used near the endgame for Duchies. Doesn't seem like it adds much but probably ok for an event. Maybe if the $5 was top decked; that would make openings even more weird and the Duchy gaining less enticing compared to Annex (but still valid).

That would be another good alternative to allowing the Gold gain. It also spices things up a bit.



I haven't tried it much yet, so we'll see whether it actually needs a buff soon, i hope.

Report seems cool.
update the VP
Just leaked that another landmark is coming soon.

Truth be told, i am very uninspired at doing Landmarks. I think they are a cool mechanic, but my only attempt at one was just actually something somebody else (fragasnap) had done before. So i wouldn't count on it. Heh, how about a Seasons-Landmark, that makes card X worth more if the game ends in year 2? But seriously, i have nothing cooking here.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 10:30:53 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #598 on: September 05, 2016, 09:11:23 am »
+2

The "+1 Card" in the text shouldn't be bold. None of the published cards have bold text in the middle of non-bold text and it looks really weird.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #599 on: September 05, 2016, 09:21:52 am »
+1

The "+1 Card" in the text shouldn't be bold. None of the published cards have bold text in the middle of non-bold text and it looks really weird.

Fun fact: When i did that back then, it was because the german publisher had put all bonuses in texts in bold. I had never consciously checked how it was with the original cards, and would have made them non-bold if i had noticed. As my goal is to make my cards look like official ones, that was sensible feedback back then - just as today it would be to say "bonuses are now in bold, btw". I'm not sure i feel like updating them, but then again it's not that many i'd have to fix.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #600 on: September 05, 2016, 12:21:23 pm »
+1

Another fun fact: Empires actually has vanilla bonuses always in bold, even in text.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #601 on: September 05, 2016, 01:02:33 pm »
+2

Another fun fact: Empires actually has vanilla bonuses always in bold, even in text.

that was sensible feedback back then - just as today it would be to say "bonuses are now in bold, btw".
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #602 on: September 09, 2016, 10:55:57 pm »
0

Latest thoughts:
Scientist seems rather strong at $2. While the debt token hurts a lot more early on than "discard a card" would, it gets practically better than that later. I'll bump it to $3.
Report seems a bit lacking. I'll consider it at $4<3>.
Parting is the same. Maybe it could gain $6s? I'd have to play a Big Money/Parting vs engine game to see whether that's a thing, which i wouldn't like.

About Spellcasters: Does anybody have an opinion on those? Anybody who played with them? Because i'm willing to give them another shot. Either way, i think the Wisdom Spell has to cost at least $2, while Dexterity might have to cost $4. I have also dropped Summoner for now, and there are only 5 Spells left. About Sorcerer, i'm not sure whether it should be a Market that can cast Spells at $6, or a Market Square at $4. Considering how much of the power of Spells depends on +Buys, maybe a buy-less one is more interesting? Like a Peddler for $5? My only worry would be the similarity to Invader, but well, that's no surprise considering Invader is based on an older version of Sorcerer. The Spellcaster i feel most happy with right now is Trickster, but Magician's not looking that bad, either.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #603 on: September 10, 2016, 07:37:28 am »
+1

About Spellcasters: Does anybody have an opinion on those? Anybody who played with them? Because i'm willing to give them another shot. Either way, i think the Wisdom Spell has to cost at least $2, while Dexterity might have to cost $4. I have also dropped Summoner for now, and there are only 5 Spells left. About Sorcerer, i'm not sure whether it should be a Market that can cast Spells at $6, or a Market Square at $4. Considering how much of the power of Spells depends on +Buys, maybe a buy-less one is more interesting? Like a Peddler for $5? My only worry would be the similarity to Invader, but well, that's no surprise considering Invader is based on an older version of Sorcerer. The Spellcaster i feel most happy with right now is Trickster, but Magician's not looking that bad, either.
You availibe from 7 to 9 your time tonight?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #604 on: September 10, 2016, 08:51:38 am »
0

About Spellcasters: Does anybody have an opinion on those? Anybody who played with them? Because i'm willing to give them another shot. Either way, i think the Wisdom Spell has to cost at least $2, while Dexterity might have to cost $4. I have also dropped Summoner for now, and there are only 5 Spells left. About Sorcerer, i'm not sure whether it should be a Market that can cast Spells at $6, or a Market Square at $4. Considering how much of the power of Spells depends on +Buys, maybe a buy-less one is more interesting? Like a Peddler for $5? My only worry would be the similarity to Invader, but well, that's no surprise considering Invader is based on an older version of Sorcerer. The Spellcaster i feel most happy with right now is Trickster, but Magician's not looking that bad, either.
You availibe from 7 to 9 your time tonight?
I'm not yet sure about it...
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #605 on: September 10, 2016, 11:36:56 am »
+1

I updated the OP to reflect the latest changes. Have fun with that. I'll try to take a break posting for a while again.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #606 on: September 24, 2016, 09:46:23 am »
+6

Another Inquisitor. Bet you didn't expect that.



I didn't plan to name it that way, but well, it's a Witch variant, and a Torturer variant, and a Cultist variant... Which ties in nicely, thematically. It's worse than Witch without trashing, and better in the end if the other players trashed their curses.

I also decided to change the flavor of Scolar/Inquisition for several reasons: First, because i felt stopping the first card with the second should feel legitimate, theme-wise. Second, the theme of Inquisition seemed to fit better on an attack (see above).



More changes:



Investor got changed to not need debt tokens. It now feels more like a variant of Merchant Guild or Plaza. In general, it's the cleaner solution, but it also makes me feel the concept in general is too redundant to existing cards...

Also, Delegate. It just feels like it changes the game in unfun ways too often. I could try to fix it. An obvious solution would be to have it reveal a Province from your hand to end the game, which means you have to get at least one and there's a chance Delegate won't finish the game even if you are ahead. Still, it doesn't feel like a major improvement. I'll just leave it be as is, because i want to do other stuff, but keep in mind it's not 100% supported anymore.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #607 on: September 24, 2016, 11:56:41 am »
+2

Another Inquisitor. Bet you didn't expect that.



I didn't plan to name it that way, but well, it's a Witch variant, and a Torturer variant, and a Cultist variant... Which ties in nicely, thematically. It's worse than Witch without trashing, and better in the end if the other players trashed their curses.

I also decided to change the flavor of Scolar/Inquisition for several reasons: First, because i felt stopping the first card with the second should feel legitimate, theme-wise. Second, the theme of Inquisition seemed to fit better on an attack (see above).



More changes:



Investor got changed to not need debt tokens. It now feels more like a variant of Merchant Guild or Plaza. In general, it's the cleaner solution, but it also makes me feel the concept in general is too redundant to existing cards...

Also, Delegate. It just feels like it changes the game in unfun ways too often. I could try to fix it. An obvious solution would be to have it reveal a Province from your hand to end the game, which means you have to get at least one and there's a chance Delegate won't finish the game even if you are ahead. Still, it doesn't feel like a major improvement. I'll just leave it be as is, because i want to do other stuff, but keep in mind it's not 100% supported anymore.

Because of Defiled Shrine, it seems like Inquisitor should have the Gathering type.

Nightwatch seems OP. It's basically a Warehouse with +$1 added, AND it blocks other players' Carriers, for a measly price increase of $1. I would've priced it at $5, personally.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #608 on: September 24, 2016, 01:05:11 pm »
+1

Another Inquisitor. Bet you didn't expect that.

*snigger*

I would have preferred Inquisitor if Witch didn't exist. I think its powerlevel is less overbearing. Alas...

Agree with gubump that Nightwatch is huh hard to price because of Warehouse.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 01:28:24 am by pacovf »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #609 on: September 24, 2016, 01:09:29 pm »
+2



Because of Defiled Shrine, it seems like Inquisitor should have the Gathering type.

Nightwatch seems OP. It's basically a Warehouse with +$1 added, AND it blocks other players' Carriers, for a measly price increase of $1. I would've priced it at $5, personally.

Backstory: Originally Inquisitor was to be named Shaman and had a Mat. I didn't think it needed one, but where to put the VP? On the Copper pile was the most plausible, but that didn't work because of Aqueduct. Defiled Shrine is far less problematic. It only adds 2 VP, and one of them leaves the pile when you buy your first Inquisitor. You can deal out one more Copper if nobody ever buys a second one, but it's more likely you'll actually deal out less of them. All in all, it just didn't seems a big thing. After all, Defiled Shrine, Crown and Aqueduct already interact weirdly, and if a Witch variant gets slightly worse once in a while, what's the problem? Making Inquisitor Gathering just seemed wrong, because Gathering cards are completely different. I'd rather have it interact (unproblematically) with a Landmark once in a while than always give it a type that doesn't fit. It's not like crown has the type because of Defiled Shrine/Aqueduct.

Nightwatch might be, i don't know. Originally it only sifted 2 cards. I considered adding a reaction instead of the additional sift:

Quote
Nightwatch, Action - Reaction
+2 Cards
+1 Action
+ $1
Discard 2 cards.
---
When another player plays an attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, all players (except the attacker) are unaffected by the attack.

Edit: Although, keep in mind it's not available as early as Warehouse - it's not going to help you skip Estates, unless you hold on to them.
Edit: I'd rather make Nightwatch weaker than increase the price. It should be cheap and nice enough to pick up and spoil your Carrier-playing friends' fun.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 01:15:50 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #610 on: September 25, 2016, 11:43:53 am »
0

First Well and Blacksmith, now Artisan and Mill... Why can't i never be finished? T__T

Also: Inquisitor should probably do something more interesting when played, e.g. fixed draw, and Nightwatch should be a reaction for coolness' sake.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #611 on: September 25, 2016, 03:37:04 pm »
+2

The second editions of Base and Intrigue include cards with equal names as some cards i used to have. I took this opportunity to also exchange Blacksmith's name for something that actually befits Cornucopia more:



Also, making Inquisitor and Nightwatch a bit more interesting:



Not sure the loss in sifting actually makes Nightwatch okay with the reaction.

Edited to reposition the "action attack" text on Inquisitor. I didn't update the template, though.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 04:14:07 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #612 on: September 25, 2016, 04:02:51 pm »
+1

I like the change on Investor, Craftsmen, Windmill, and Courier/Nightwatch.

I don't like the art on farmer.

I like the art on Inquisition, but It still seems too simmilar to Witch. I think the Action-Attack thing is a little too far down.

Did you forget to rename Diplomat?

I'd keep Diplomat and Extortioner in the OP so people can find them easily.

Does Inquisitor need the Gathering type?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 04:23:41 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #613 on: September 25, 2016, 11:12:20 pm »
+3

Damn! The official card "Mill" IS a windmill... Oh man. I should have checked the images before going through the trouble of picking a new picture...
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #614 on: September 25, 2016, 11:52:07 pm »
+2

Damn! The official card "Mill" IS a windmill... Oh man. I should have checked the images before going through the trouble of picking a new picture...

You could just call it "flour mill" and keep the same picture as before.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #615 on: September 26, 2016, 08:23:13 am »
+1

Damn! The official card "Mill" IS a windmill... Oh man. I should have checked the images before going through the trouble of picking a new picture...

You could just call it "flour mill" and keep the same picture as before.

Or you could call it Steel Mill.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #616 on: September 26, 2016, 02:17:46 pm »
+1

Did you forget to rename Diplomat?

I'd keep Diplomat and Extortioner in the OP so people can find them easily.

Does Inquisitor need the Gathering type?

The card is called Delegate. I don't keep it because i don't want people to play with my cards and think they are uterrible. At least I don't want to have to agree with them. Delegate isn't very fun, currently. It degenerates the game to a turn-to-turn race. Extortioner just isn't interesting enough - you barely ever feel the attack. And Inquisitor does not need the Gathering type. The type implies too much that doesn't have anything to do with the card and the only interaction that would imply the type is ignorable.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #617 on: September 26, 2016, 03:16:08 pm »
+1

Okay, thanks for the response.

I'm still curious what happened to Take 3 Coin tokens, another player gains a Silver.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #618 on: September 26, 2016, 03:17:19 pm »
+1

Good thing you called it sultan instead of Vassal, saved yourself some work!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #619 on: September 26, 2016, 05:52:06 pm »
0

Okay, thanks for the response.

I'm still curious what happened to Take 3 Coin tokens, another player gains a Silver.

Argh, i totally forgot i HAD a card named Diplomat... Now this is embarrassing, sorry for that. I removed that one quite some time ago. It just didn't seem well-balanced and i hardly ever played with it, so i dropped it out.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #620 on: September 27, 2016, 07:05:35 pm »
+2



Mill is now Sawmill. Well, Sawmills kinda manufacture something, so maybe that's not too bad. Also, did you know: Back when Governer was created, there were plans to make a promo for "Power Grid". The game had you produce energy with power stations, including Windmills (which were the only ones that didn't cost any ressources to keep running), and as the author, Friedeman Friese, loves the color green, the promo would have been a green card. Guess what Mill is.

Also, yeah, i am not sure Nightwatch should sift that much:



Is an Oasis that can stop attacks later in the game, but for every player, and can hinder other players getting money, worth $4? Or rather, is the same card with additional sift already too much for $4?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #621 on: September 28, 2016, 08:11:29 am »
+3

I dunno, but it would be cool if you listed all your outtakes. Some of them seemed to have some promise.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #622 on: September 28, 2016, 11:45:49 am »
+2

I dunno, but it would be cool if you listed all your outtakes. Some of them seemed to have some promise.
  I agree :)  Please do
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #623 on: September 28, 2016, 01:33:33 pm »
+1

A list of not-quite-terrible cards without images for now:

Diplomat, Action, $5
Take 3 coin tokens. Choose another player who may gain a Silver.


Delegate, $8, Action-Reserve
Put this on your Tavern Mat.
----
At the start of your turn, you may call this to discard a Province, and if you do, the game ends.


Extortioner, Action - Duration - Attack, $3
Until the start of your next turn, when another player buys a card, they take <1>.
Now and at the start of your next turn: +1 Buy, +$1


Canal, <6>, Action
+1 Action
+2$
Discard a card.
+1 Card


Heir, Action, $4
You may discard an Estate for +3 Cards.
You may discard a Duchy for +3$.
You may discard a Victory Card for +3 Actions.


Parliament, $4, Action
You may choose an Action card from your hand. If it costs as much as this, play it twice. If it costs less, play it 3 times.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #624 on: September 28, 2016, 01:40:28 pm »
+1

I totaly missed Heir was gone, but Jeweler also seems to be gone.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #625 on: September 28, 2016, 01:44:18 pm »
0

I totaly missed Heir was gone, but Jeweler also seems to be gone.

Jeweler was intended to emulate a Treasure-Action. As we now have that combination for real, it became obsolete. I'll think about whether i forgot some older ideas eventually.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #626 on: September 30, 2016, 12:09:39 pm »
0

I don't like the art for scientist either, would something like this work instead?
http://homoseptimus.deviantart.com/art/Librarian-355923752
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #627 on: September 30, 2016, 01:30:14 pm »
+2

I don't like the art for scientist either, would something like this work instead?
http://homoseptimus.deviantart.com/art/Librarian-355923752

I like the current art for Scientist; it fits the quirky style of some Dominion cards. The art you suggested looks great but seems less fitting for Dominion.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #628 on: September 30, 2016, 03:01:13 pm »
+1

I don't like the art for scientist either, would something like this work instead?
http://homoseptimus.deviantart.com/art/Librarian-355923752

I like this art, its got an Alchemist/Lost Arts vibe to it.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #629 on: September 30, 2016, 03:06:03 pm »
0

I don't like the art for scientist either, would something like this work instead?
http://homoseptimus.deviantart.com/art/Librarian-355923752

I like the current art for Scientist; it fits the quirky style of some Dominion cards. The art you suggested looks great but seems less fitting for Dominion.
I mean, it's a prefference so I can't really argue, but I think it still sticks out and is kinda quirky but it's no longer cartoony.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #630 on: October 01, 2016, 07:31:06 pm »
+2

I like the current art on Scientist. I also like the art on Farmer. I appreciate feedback, but i'm not going to replace art i like. Sorry, those are my cards. I'll gladly change the image on Hospital for something that doesn't scream "Actual painting" as much, but apart from that i think i'm very happy with the images. Well, if you find a plausible image for Homunculus (that prominently features a bottle and doesn't look like an attack), i'd also be all ears. Apart from that, thank you, but those are fixes for things that aren't broken.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #631 on: October 01, 2016, 07:41:22 pm »
+2

I like the current art on Scientist. I also like the art on Farmer. I appreciate feedback, but i'm not going to replace art i like. Sorry, those are my cards. I'll gladly change the image on Hospital for something that doesn't scream "Actual painting" as much, but apart from that i think i'm very happy with the images. Well, if you find a plausible image for Homunculus (that prominently features a bottle and doesn't look like an attack), i'd also be all ears. Apart from that, thank you, but those are fixes for things that aren't broken.
I like the picture you've got for Homunculus.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #632 on: October 01, 2016, 09:16:17 pm »
+1

I like the current art on Scientist. I also like the art on Farmer. I appreciate feedback, but i'm not going to replace art i like. Sorry, those are my cards. I'll gladly change the image on Hospital for something that doesn't scream "Actual painting" as much, but apart from that i think i'm very happy with the images. Well, if you find a plausible image for Homunculus (that prominently features a bottle and doesn't look like an attack), i'd also be all ears. Apart from that, thank you, but those are fixes for things that aren't broken.
I like the picture you've got for Homunculus.
And Hospital...

Anyways, it's art, so it's a preference. I can see why you'd like both and it's perfectly okay for you to ignore my opinion, there your cards dude. That being said, I'll probably change the art on my versions.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #633 on: October 02, 2016, 01:32:14 pm »
+1

I like the current art on Scientist. I also like the art on Farmer. I appreciate feedback, but i'm not going to replace art i like. Sorry, those are my cards. I'll gladly change the image on Hospital for something that doesn't scream "Actual painting" as much, but apart from that i think i'm very happy with the images. Well, if you find a plausible image for Homunculus (that prominently features a bottle and doesn't look like an attack), i'd also be all ears. Apart from that, thank you, but those are fixes for things that aren't broken.
I like the picture you've got for Homunculus.
And Hospital...

Anyways, it's art, so it's a preference. I can see why you'd like both and it's perfectly okay for you to ignore my opinion, there your cards dude. That being said, I'll probably change the art on my versions.

It's a preference, obviously, but as far as the cards are pieces of art, the images are part of those pieces. I am not going to ignore critizism of the art, either, but i would prefer if it was a little more than "This is fine, you should still exchange it for my own pick.". A lot of effort goes into making those cards, and i don't pick art lightly.

You can use any art you like on your versions, of course. You can post them in one of your threads, too, as long as you credit me - which i'm sure btw others would appreciate as well.
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Re: Asper's BAD Cards
« Reply #634 on: October 07, 2016, 09:27:01 pm »
+3

At request, here are my outtakes:

 

Extortioner's attack rarely matters. Heir is weak (although i tried to buff it with the +3 Actions). Parliament is broken with some cards and useless with others. Olympic Village (called Aqueduct before) got an additional Action and a neat promotional icon, but your attacks doing nothing still sucks. Sovereign (Diplomat earlier) is, well, political (even though that's the concept, it's still not too great). Tribunal takes long to resolve and is not as relevant. Delegate can make a game get into a weird state where every player must green until somebody somehow stalls and the game is lost (although having to reveal a Province is an attempt to take that certainity away and add a little requirement).
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 09:55:16 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #635 on: October 08, 2016, 02:14:39 am »
+1

Delegate just seems like a bad idea but I feel like Tribunal should work out to a sweet card somehow.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #636 on: October 08, 2016, 09:46:40 am »
0

Delegate just seems like a bad idea but I feel like Tribunal should work out to a sweet card somehow.

I felt Delegate was a reasonable idea to try. It's not so much what happens when you play the card, but what kind of strategy it enforces on the players. Something like Delegate might work in other games, but not Dominion.

Tribunal has gone through so many iterations, and I always felt I'd be able to find a solution that's not overly complicated, but always failed. The current one is what i got after giving it one more go. Sadly, you can't just drop the second part entirely, because it allows setting up a pin by playing Tribunal a lot of times. TThat's not to bad if all players have progressed decently, i guess, but if one has more junk than the other, Tribunal might break his neck.

I honestly kinda like Olympic Village by the way, but probably that's just because i think the flavor (it really looks like an Olympic Games Promo card) is fun. It's also balanced, just again the concept itself will not be considered fun by quite a few people. I'm sure there are others who might actually like it, though. The question is just, will those like it enough to justify the hate? From the reactions i got to the concept before, probably not.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #637 on: October 08, 2016, 02:16:56 pm »
+1

Extortioner: Well, the obvious solution seems to add extra to the attack. If that doesn't work, something like "when another player buys a card costing up to , return it to the supply" might work, but it loses the ification.

Heir: What if you could discard up to an Estate, Duchy, and a Victory card, then choose one of the bonuses for each card, like Courtier. I don't know wether that helps, but I would love to keep it just for the insane Heir/Meadow/Swamp combo wombo.

Parliament: Yeah, I don't know how to fix this one. In Civilization we had a throne room variant that played an Action card costing up to from your discard pile. It was weak and too dull, but it's trying to make a comeback later. Anyways, Parliament still seems like an interesting idea.

Olympic Village: I would like it more if the attacks just didn't effect everyone else. So Rabble is still a Smithy. that might be too good, and then you could add an extra "each other player draws a card" when you play an Attack for balancing, and flavor.

Sovereign: The politicallness is cool, but what if it was: "Choose a player who you have chosen the least number of times with Sovereign this turn. They may gain a Silver." That cuts down some of the politics. The ability could be changed as well.

Tribunal: I mean, the idea is cool (like all of the outtakes), but I don't know what to say on this one.
Delegate: What about an event? Something like "Take 24 and a Delegate token. When you have no and a Delegate token, the game ends. So you need to spend a crap ton of money, but it might be still too good with gaining.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #638 on: October 08, 2016, 04:00:54 pm »
+1

What if Delegate was an event that went like:

Quote
Take the Delegate token.

At the beginning of your turn, if you have the Delegate token, remove one or two Council tokens from this event. If you can't, the game ends immediately.

Setup: Put 5 Council tokens on this event.

Exact details (and cost) to be worked out, just giving an idea.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #639 on: October 08, 2016, 04:27:33 pm »
+2

What if Delegate was an event that went like:

Quote
Take the Delegate token.

At the beginning of your turn, if you have the Delegate token, remove one or two Council tokens from this event. If you can't, the game ends immediately.

Setup: Put 5 Council tokens on this event.

Exact details (and cost) to be worked out, just giving an idea.

I like the basic idea of it. I would simplyfy it to this:

Quote
Delegate, $7, Event
If you have the Delegate token, the game ends after this turn. Otherwise, take the Delegate token.

So you actually need to buy this twice, and if another player buys Delegate after you bought it the first time they take the Delegate token from you. Then of course they'd need to buy it again to end the game on their account but perhaps they just bought it to keep you from ending the game this way. It might warrant some interesting strategic choices and it less one-sided than a Delegate-card that only one player has full control over.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #640 on: October 08, 2016, 09:56:36 pm »
0

Extortioner: Well, the obvious solution seems to add extra to the attack. If that doesn't work, something like "when another player buys a card costing up to , return it to the supply" might work, but it loses the ification.
Sure, you could just add more debt to the attack and maybe make the card cost more. Considering the card isn't really my idea but mostly an attempt to implement another forumite's (eHalcyon's) idea, it's not as high in my ranks to fix Extortioner.

Heir: What if you could discard up to an Estate, Duchy, and a Victory card, then choose one of the bonuses for each card, like Courtier. I don't know wether that helps, but I would love to keep it just for the insane Heir/Meadow/Swamp combo wombo.
Well, Heir was always just "another Baron" in concept. It's just never working out as well, and then there's Baron already, there's not as much Heir offers which is new.

Parliament: Yeah, I don't know how to fix this one. In Civilization we had a throne room variant that played an Action card costing up to from your discard pile. It was weak and too dull, but it's trying to make a comeback later. Anyways, Parliament still seems like an interesting idea.
The problem is that tying it to cost is a bad mechanic, and as that was the base concept, the base concept for Parliament is bad. Sure there are other TR variants you could make, but Parliament's idea just doesn't work.

Olympic Village: I would like it more if the attacks just didn't effect everyone else. So Rabble is still a Smithy. that might be too good, and then you could add an extra "each other player draws a card" when you play an Attack for balancing, and flavor.
That's exactly what the card does, actually. I assume you only read my comments below the cards, where I wrongly wrote they "don't do anything". They don't attack, and some players may like that, while other's might not. Generally, Olympic Village is a Bazaar which first discards a card for +$1, so it's not even strictly better than it without attacks - it IS a lot better in the beginning of the game, though, which justifies the penalty.

Sovereign: The politicallness is cool, but what if it was: "Choose a player who you have chosen the least number of times with Sovereign this turn. They may gain a Silver." That cuts down some of the politics. The ability could be changed as well.
The ability you get yourself isn't as important for the concept and the main problem doesn't lie there. Sovereign being a political card is. Of course you can reduce the politicalness, but then why make the card at all? Other bonuses would be possible (like giving another player a coin token or allowing them to gain a Copper in hand), but they don't solve the main issue.

Tribunal: I mean, the idea is cool (like all of the outtakes), but I don't know what to say on this one.
Tribunal is fine. I'm kind of okay with the current wording. It doesn't add that much, but it's not terrible.

Delegate: What about an event? Something like "Take 24 and a Delegate token. When you have no and a Delegate token, the game ends. So you need to spend a crap ton of money, but it might be still too good with gaining.
I'm not sure, but I think the concept itself is the problem, again. Not much interest to re-visit this soon, but maybe there's a solution here. Feel free to make up your own ideas based on this - Delegate itself spawned from a thread where some people talked about game-ending cards. The only thing Delegate did that was special was being a Reserve (so it wasn't shuffle dependant) and not give any bonus besides ending the game (the others gave a lot of VP). Maybe you can instead have, like, an ultra-hard to get VP card that ends the game when somebody gets it, but that's not really Delegate anymore. Delegate differentiated itself by allowing you to choose when to end the game, and that idea doesn't work out.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #641 on: October 08, 2016, 10:04:50 pm »
0

What if Delegate was an event that went like:

Quote
Take the Delegate token.

At the beginning of your turn, if you have the Delegate token, remove one or two Council tokens from this event. If you can't, the game ends immediately.

Setup: Put 5 Council tokens on this event.

Exact details (and cost) to be worked out, just giving an idea.

I like the basic idea of it. I would simplyfy it to this:

Quote
Delegate, $7, Event
If you have the Delegate token, the game ends after this turn. Otherwise, take the Delegate token.

So you actually need to buy this twice, and if another player buys Delegate after you bought it the first time they take the Delegate token from you. Then of course they'd need to buy it again to end the game on their account but perhaps they just bought it to keep you from ending the game this way. It might warrant some interesting strategic choices and it less one-sided than a Delegate-card that only one player has full control over.

But is that really better? I'm in the lead. I buy Delegate. Your turn. You can buy VP to get in the lead yourself, but that clogs your deck. You buy Delegate instead. My turn. I don't want to clog my deck. I buy Delegate...

pacovf's solution at least moves the game towards an end as soon as somebody has the Delegate token. It still has the issue that just going for Witch in the beginning and hitting $7 by, let's say, turn 6, means that my opponent is either forced to buy Duchies or just accept they lost the game by losing the Curse split. Neither is cool.
Edit: Or to put it like this: Like the card, this too creates a situation where one or more player(s) have the choice between accepting defeat or playing a game that's going to be progressively less fun (because they must clog their decks) and ultimately will end on luck (when somebody stalls).
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 10:10:09 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #642 on: October 17, 2016, 03:39:46 pm »
+2

I like the new art for Swamp, er, Borderlands.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #643 on: October 17, 2016, 04:14:50 pm »
+2

I like the new art for Swamp, er, Borderlands.

So do I!  It's beautiful!  It's funny how good art makes me want to play with a card more :)
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #644 on: October 18, 2016, 05:21:44 pm »
0

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

I finally found the picture for Sheriff in better resolution.


Also, I heard there's a new german forum, now? Maybe somebody there cares about cards like these?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #645 on: October 18, 2016, 07:24:31 pm »
+2

I belive the sherrif art needs to be pushed to the left a bit to remove that bar.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #646 on: October 18, 2016, 08:48:57 pm »
0

I belive the sherrif art needs to be pushed to the left a bit to remove that bar.

Argh! You are right! The bar of the template doesn't fill out its space completely. Fixed that in the OP.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #647 on: October 24, 2016, 04:21:41 pm »
+2

I got some feedback and changed a few cards:

Sunken City now discards the card instead of revealing it first.
Well now specifies that the cost is relative to the trashed card.
Nightwatch now is a bit weaker, since its base effect is a mere Oasis.

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AdrianHealey

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #648 on: October 24, 2016, 07:00:40 pm »
+1

How does sunken city relate to the new card with the similar effect?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #649 on: October 24, 2016, 08:02:47 pm »
0

How does sunken city relate to the new card with the similar effect?

It came first - in fact I'm not sure whether Herald existed when I made it...

Seriously, though, Sunken City is swingier, as the net advantage you get if it fails is as good as zero. It's better when your deck is really well prepared than Vassal is, but it's practically useless before that. I guess I can get away with a price of 2. As Vassal is an official card now, people will sooner or later be able to estimate whether it's good or not, and it will be more playtesting than Sunken City will ever get. I'll possibly change Sunken City in case Vassal will be generally considered overpowered, but for now it's going to stay how it is.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #650 on: October 26, 2016, 11:06:31 am »
+1

I got some feedback and changed a few cards:

Sunken City now discards the card instead of revealing it first.
Well now specifies that the cost is relative to the trashed card.
Nightwatch now is a bit weaker, since its base effect is a mere Oasis.
Possibly this has already been discussed, but need the below-line trashing on Well be mandatory?  It seems like an on-buy effect like that is attempting to be generally helpful, but as it stands it may be pretty painful.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #651 on: October 26, 2016, 02:04:12 pm »
0

I got some feedback and changed a few cards:

Sunken City now discards the card instead of revealing it first.
Well now specifies that the cost is relative to the trashed card.
Nightwatch now is a bit weaker, since its base effect is a mere Oasis.
Possibly this has already been discussed, but need the below-line trashing on Well be mandatory?  It seems like an on-buy effect like that is attempting to be generally helpful, but as it stands it may be pretty painful.
I don't recall it being discussed. But you are right, it'd probably profit from being optional. I doubt it would throw the card off-balance.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #652 on: October 27, 2016, 08:40:16 am »
+1

http://d-torres.deviantart.com/art/Promo-art-459102362

Is the art for Farmer I used.

Also, I'd encourage you to update all you cards with vanilla bonuses and new wording.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 08:43:22 am by ThetaSigma12 »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #653 on: October 27, 2016, 08:54:16 am »
+2

I got some feedback and changed a few cards:

Sunken City now discards the card instead of revealing it first.
Well now specifies that the cost is relative to the trashed card.
Nightwatch now is a bit weaker, since its base effect is a mere Oasis.
Possibly this has already been discussed, but need the below-line trashing on Well be mandatory?  It seems like an on-buy effect like that is attempting to be generally helpful, but as it stands it may be pretty painful.
I don't recall it being discussed. But you are right, it'd probably profit from being optional. I doubt it would throw the card off-balance.

My two cents: I would keep it mandatory. It just adds that little bit of layer of extra decision making. Then again, we have had that people just forget about it.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #654 on: October 28, 2016, 06:58:42 pm »
+2

Some info:

  • Homunculus should probably just say "You may trash a card from your hand" to be stronger and simpler.
  • Assemble's ability to gain engine components isn't really all that good. It's mostly an Expand that gains Coppers. So why shouldn't I just limit it to that use case?
  • Will kick out Invader. Option one is to replace it with a card that costs 8 or 9 and is a Peddler with optional trashing for Provinces, which I'd call Delegate again. Never really liked the Roman theme, either way. The alternative is a new rendition of the "Glory" spell combined with Wizard's wording getting changed. Speaking of which, Wizard could probably do with casting up to two Spells again. He's just not comparing well to other 5s right now.
  • Well will probably be optional either way. I follow Haddock's point, and forgetting about it is also bad. If it was a straight punishment, people wouldn't forget it, but as is it's to be expected.
  • I'll re-do Iron Maiden, as it's my only card with Bonuses in the text. I don't see myself rewording all those "If you do"s to "to"s, simply because those wordings are still correct and I don't want to go through that effort.
  • I'll post less, for real this time.
  • Thank you for linking the image you used for Farmer, ThetaSigma12. I tried it out, compared it, and then ultimately felt I liked the cheerful look of my original pick still slightly better. Sorry for making you go through the trouble of looking it up and posting it, I appreciate that.
  • German speakers might occasionally see me post on the german forum. It has less users and no Donald X, but has its advantages (no users who hate me, for example).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #655 on: October 28, 2016, 07:04:22 pm »
+2

(no users who hate me, for example).

Who hates you? You're one of my favorite users on the forums!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #656 on: October 28, 2016, 09:50:24 pm »
+2

You could make Road not work with Champion by simply making it not an action card.

Quote
Road Reaction,
During your action phase, you may reveal this
from your hand to spend an action for +2 Cards.
(This is not in the Supply.)

Or this may be more clearly worded,

Quote
Road Reaction,
During your action phase, you may spend an action
to reveal this from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards.
(This is not in the Supply.)

« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 09:52:18 pm by kru5h »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #657 on: October 28, 2016, 10:32:02 pm »
+4

(no users who hate me, for example).

Who hates you? You're one of my favorite users on the forums!

Well, that rules you out ;)
Thanks, that's good to hear. Forgive me, but I feel I don't want to answer your question. The person knows who I refer to, and that's enough. No need to make this a huge thing, I was kind of frustrated when writing that. But seriously, you saying such a nice thing makes me happy :)


You could make Road not work with Champion by simply making it not an action card.

Quote
Road Reaction,
During your action phase, you may reveal this
from your hand to spend an action for +2 Cards.
(This is not in the Supply.)

Or this may be more clearly worded,

Quote
Road Reaction,
During your action phase, you may spend an action
to reveal this from your hand. If you do, +2 Cards.
(This is not in the Supply.)

I made Road specifically to design a card that did the "use as many actions as you wish" thing without introducing a new mechanic. Spells aside, that's a thing I do: Take existing mechanics and do weird stuff with them. Originally it was a supply card, but a certain user mentioned that it would be better if it wasn't (which gave away there would be a way to make any card in the supply give +1 Action). Also it solved the issue of Road being in a kingdom without any Villages. Having it be an extra that comes with Road solves both issues. The only issue that doesn't go away is Champion.

However, Champion games are a very special case. First of all, Warrior is the worst designed Dominion card in my book (yes, worse than Rebuild), as it is incredibly destructive and can decide the game based on luck only - so games with the Page line don't weight much for me with respect to game balance or fun. Second, Road actually improves those games. At least once the game is decided in favour of the player who got his Champion into play (the game is usually already decided once one Warrior trashes the opponent's, but well), you won't have to suffer for much longer. But seriously, even if the Page line wasn't screwed up thanks to Warrior, Champion is an incredibly hard to get, incredibly strong card. Road just means that (provided you draw it), you can draw your deck. Truth be told, you can do that quite often with Champion, either way, and as everything goes nuts in any case, Road doesn't even change that much. Also, if you don't draw Road (or any other draw card), it's still doing nothing for you. To avoid that, you need to get several Roads, which means you'll have to buy Towns, which don't do anything to reach Champion and don't get anything out of it. So that's not trivial, either. Long story short, I can live with Champion's interaction with Road.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 10:35:12 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #658 on: October 28, 2016, 10:55:45 pm »
+2

Hey Gubump, get out of the way, Asper was one of my favourite posters before you even registered :p

Maybe this is too personal, but you don't need to tell us whether you intend to post more often or not. There is nothing inherently wrong with checking out the forum. Of course, if checking the forum makes you feel bad about yourself for whatever reason, then you might want to block access to the website (there are ton of apps and stuff that can do that). We'll miss you of course, but your well-being comes first.

...that being said, Well is still easily one of my favourite fan cards, but I just noticed that the art style rings a bell. Where did you get it from?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #659 on: October 29, 2016, 01:29:57 pm »
+1

Some info:

  • Homunculus should probably just say "You may trash a card from your hand" to be stronger and simpler.
  • Assemble's ability to gain engine components isn't really all that good. It's mostly an Expand that gains Coppers. So why shouldn't I just limit it to that use case?
  • Will kick out Invader. Option one is to replace it with a card that costs 8 or 9 and is a Peddler with optional trashing for Provinces, which I'd call Delegate again. Never really liked the Roman theme, either way. The alternative is a new rendition of the "Glory" spell combined with Wizard's wording getting changed. Speaking of which, Wizard could probably do with casting up to two Spells again. He's just not comparing well to other 5s right now.
  • Well will probably be optional either way. I follow Haddock's point, and forgetting about it is also bad. If it was a straight punishment, people wouldn't forget it, but as is it's to be expected.
  • I'll re-do Iron Maiden, as it's my only card with Bonuses in the text. I don't see myself rewording all those "If you do"s to "to"s, simply because those wordings are still correct and I don't want to go through that effort.
  • I'll post less, for real this time.
  • Thank you for linking the image you used for Farmer, ThetaSigma12. I tried it out, compared it, and then ultimately felt I liked the cheerful look of my original pick still slightly better. Sorry for making you go through the trouble of looking it up and posting it, I appreciate that.
  • German speakers might occasionally see me post on the german forum. It has less users and no Donald X, but has its advantages (no users who hate me, for example).
-I haven't played with homunculus yet, so no comments there. Seems okay to me though.
-Assemble seems fine as-is. I've used it before to gain cheap things, and just a weaker expand seems like it ruins the whole charm of the card.
-I haven't played with Invader, so no comments there either.
-Wizard too.
-Well would probably benefit from being optional.
-Iron maiden could use some simplicity.
-Nothing to say really.
-Fair enough, I hate the Farmer art still but that's purley your choice. On a side note, I think I'll drop my alternate art for scientist to maybe use somewhere else. Still not a big fan of the current art, but I've decided it's not worth chaning. I'll remove my art for "Capitol" as you changed that.
-I don't speak German.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 01:32:13 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #660 on: October 30, 2016, 07:09:42 pm »
+1

Hey Gubump, get out of the way, Asper was one of my favourite posters before you even registered :p
Don't worry, pacovf, you'll always be my #1 cheer-up-person ;)

Maybe this is too personal, but you don't need to tell us whether you intend to post more often or not. There is nothing inherently wrong with checking out the forum. Of course, if checking the forum makes you feel bad about yourself for whatever reason, then you might want to block access to the website (there are ton of apps and stuff that can do that). We'll miss you of course, but your well-being comes first.
Well, my lamentations are rather personal, so giving personal responses is just natural. In fact, I mostly lament because I have trouble controlling how much I use fds, and that inability to control it is what makes me feel bad. It's like eating chocolate makes you feel good, but swearing you won't eat that bar today and spare it for the weekend, and then eat it today, either way, feels like a failure. I've been able to post closer to what I intended recently, so it feels kinda okay right now.

...that being said, Well is still easily one of my favourite fan cards, but I just noticed that the art style rings a bell. Where did you get it from?
I got it from here: Stadtwerke Lichtenfels. Sadly putting it in reverse search doesn't get me much more info - all I get is the same website and, looky there, some thread about "fan cards". Whatever those are.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #661 on: October 30, 2016, 07:58:02 pm »
+1

Maybe this is too personal, but you don't need to tell us whether you intend to post more often or not. There is nothing inherently wrong with checking out the forum. Of course, if checking the forum makes you feel bad about yourself for whatever reason, then you might want to block access to the website (there are ton of apps and stuff that can do that). We'll miss you of course, but your well-being comes first.
Well, my lamentations are rather personal, so giving personal responses is just natural. In fact, I mostly lament because I have trouble controlling how much I use fds, and that inability to control it is what makes me feel bad. It's like eating chocolate makes you feel good, but swearing you won't eat that bar today and spare it for the weekend, and then eat it today, either way, feels like a failure. I've been able to post closer to what I intended recently, so it feels kinda okay right now.

100% understand. Yay for self-control that actually works though!

Quote
...that being said, Well is still easily one of my favourite fan cards, but I just noticed that the art style rings a bell. Where did you get it from?
I got it from here: Stadtwerke Lichtenfels. Sadly putting it in reverse search doesn't get me much more info - all I get is the same website and, looky there, some thread about "fan cards". Whatever those are.

Argh. On the other side, look who's getting famous! :p
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #662 on: November 02, 2016, 03:16:38 pm »
0

Where are Report and Jelwer in your list of outtakes? Were they just way too sucky to include?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #663 on: November 02, 2016, 06:15:25 pm »
+1

Where are Report and Jelwer in your list of outtakes? Were they just way too sucky to include?
I kind of already answered your question on Jeweler: All the card does is emulate a Treasure-Action without using those types (which I still think is a bad idea). Given that Crown now does that for real, that emulation is moot. It was the only interesting aspect of the card, either way. I simply took out Report after that outtake post and didn't add it to it later. Both are okay, just too boring to care about. So here goes:

Jeweler, $6 Action-Reaction
+3 Cards
---
At the end of your Action phase or when another player plays an attack card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, at the start of your buy phase, discard this fand +2$

(Used to cost 5$ without that attack thing)
Edit: Maybe that was better, either way.


Report, 4 $<2>
Gain a card costing up to 5$. Put your deck in your discard pile.

(Used to cost <8>)

« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 06:20:11 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #664 on: November 03, 2016, 01:40:15 am »
+3

Hey guys, I decided to leave forever now. As you read this, I already sent the request to delete my account. The reason isn't lack of self control alone, it's also that I've lost much of the fun frequenting the forums. And yes, a big part of that is having to deal with a guy who seems to hate me. Why lie, right?

Either way, here's my Last Will:

To Co0kieL0rd, I leave everything Seasons. It was a pleasure to work with you, buddy, and your idea to make this set together was genius. It was fantastic to have a share in such an awesome project. Hope to work with you again in the future, pal.
To ThetaSigma12, I leave the right to mock up my cards and apply recent fixes I mentioned but didn't mock up. Also, I leave that right to everybody else, but maybe it means something to you, Theta.
To pacovf, I leave just a big bunch of thank you's. You're one of the nicest, most understanding people here on fds. Just know that I'll always appreciate that.
To Donald X, I leave the right to use all of my cards commercially without any kind of atribution. Which probably won't happen, but there, I said it.
To XerxesPrealor, eHalcyon, Kuildous and GendoIkari, just some more Thank You's, as you're also really cool fds members that I always enjoyed to talk with, not necessarily about fan cards only.
To LastFootnote, I leave another big Thank You for all the feedback you gave me, and the template.
To 461.weavile, I leave special rights to do anything he pleases with my Spellcasters, as those are based on something he did. Similar things go for Sawmill (based on GeeJo's Gambling Den) and Borderlands (based on Fragasnap's Friar) to the respective inspirators.
To everyone else who should have received mention (which are quite a few), be sure that I only didn't mention you because I have to stop somewhere. There are a lot of members that gave very helpful and/or nice feedback to my cards, like LibraryAdventurer, Gubump, Haddock, Nflickner... I'm pretty sure I'll forget about one of you guys, either way. So, everyone who ever said something nice to me or helped me improve my cards (or myself), get a hug from my hugging back. I also have a smaller box of back pats if hugging alone makes you uncomfortable, so there you go. Seriously though, thank you, guys.

Now if you'll excuse me, the wind has turned. I got to go...
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #665 on: November 03, 2016, 01:57:26 am »
0

Sad to hear somebody is making your life miserable here. I vaguely remember you posting about it sometime ago, I wouldn't have guessed it was still going on. Ugh.

'til we meet on another forum, then. Take care :)
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #666 on: November 03, 2016, 01:57:50 am »
+2

sorry to see you go, you'll be missed

it really seems like there should be a way to get whoever is sending hate mail banned from fds. do we have a system for that?

AdrianHealey

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #667 on: November 03, 2016, 08:13:21 am »
+4

I, too, would rather the person that makes you miserable removed from f.ds.
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Haddock

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #668 on: November 03, 2016, 08:45:52 am »
+3

I, too, would rather the person that makes you miserable removed from f.ds.
Seconded.

Also, I feel bad because all of my posts in this thread have been minor nitpicky criticisms of some of the cards, perhaps not making it clear how I think Asper's cards are freaking awesome.

You're the best, Asper, and will be greatly missed.  Best of luck with your future endeavours.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #669 on: November 03, 2016, 10:05:12 am »
0

BWAHAHAHAHA I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT WITH YOUR CARDS AND NOBODY CAN STOP MEEEEEE!!!!

Trolling aside, sad to see you go. I'll try to take good care of your cards. If you haven't already deleted them I'd like to have the .xcf versions of your cards if that's not too much to ask.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #670 on: November 03, 2016, 12:59:10 pm »
+1

This is very sad day indeed.  I wish you the best Asper.  I still consider you to be one of the best designers of fan cards, because you valued balance over flashiness (which is why I love Dominion, and judge practically every other game against it.  Dominion has ruined me for games).  Anyways, I hope that you still come back to visit despite your last post.  It will be nice to see you around. 
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #671 on: November 03, 2016, 01:40:32 pm »
0

I'm very sad to see you leave.
Take care, and good luck.  :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #672 on: November 03, 2016, 02:07:38 pm »
+2

Good luck, Asper! Stay awesome!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #673 on: November 03, 2016, 06:14:37 pm »
0

Good bye, Asper. It is indeed sad to see you leave.  :'(
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #674 on: November 04, 2016, 01:47:38 am »
0

Yes, Asper had posted about it before. I imagine if the solution had been as easy as just banning the person, it would have been done. Sigh.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #675 on: November 06, 2016, 08:08:45 am »
0

Bye, Asper! We will miss you!

Man, I wonder who the person he was talking about is.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #676 on: November 06, 2016, 10:29:28 am »
+1

Bye, Asper! We will miss you!

Man, I wonder who the person he was talking about is.

There's only one thing to do.
Let's start a game of mafia to find out.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #677 on: November 06, 2016, 10:58:15 am »
+4

Bye, Asper! We will miss you!

Man, I wonder who the person he was talking about is.

There's only one thing to do.
Let's start a game of mafia to find out.
who of us has been sending flame pms to asper?
MIC, featuring eHalcyon, Co0kieL0rd, pacovf, ThetaSigma12, and FuckAsper666
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Limetime

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #678 on: November 06, 2016, 06:19:12 pm »
+2

Bye, Asper! We will miss you!

Man, I wonder who the person he was talking about is.

There's only one thing to do.
Let's start a game of mafia to find out.
who of us has been sending flame pms to asper?
MIC, featuring eHalcyon, Co0kieL0rd, pacovf, ThetaSigma12, and FuckAsper666
vote:schadd
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #679 on: November 06, 2016, 06:29:40 pm »
+1

Bye, Asper! We will miss you!

Man, I wonder who the person he was talking about is.

There's only one thing to do.
Let's start a game of mafia to find out.
who of us has been sending flame pms to asper?
MIC, featuring eHalcyon, Co0kieL0rd, pacovf, ThetaSigma12, and FuckAsper666
vote:schadd

This vote gives me scummy vibes.
vote:Limetime

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #680 on: November 07, 2016, 08:30:02 am »
0

Bye, Asper! We will miss you!

Man, I wonder who the person he was talking about is.

There's only one thing to do.
Let's start a game of mafia to find out.
who of us has been sending flame pms to asper?
MIC, featuring eHalcyon, Co0kieL0rd, pacovf, ThetaSigma12, and FuckAsper666

You proposing this is scummy,

vote: Schadd
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #681 on: November 16, 2016, 09:41:23 am »
+2


Made this card in memory of Asper. He always did like naming cards after people, giving the great art, and keeping the ability fun and simple.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #682 on: November 16, 2016, 03:14:25 pm »
+2


That car looks strangely similar to procrastinating. good now sucks later.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #683 on: December 26, 2016, 05:00:03 pm »
+4

Great job on these cards!


I love it. I'd buy it most of the time if I only have 1 or 2 coins and not feel bad about it but of course I wouldn't go out of my way to get it otherwise.


I love Seaside type cards and I love simple designs so this card works well for me. Not great in multiples but I'd buy one now and again


I suppose its balanced by the times it does nothing for you. Its very swingy.


Simple but pretty meh. I've realized that I like victory chip cards to have a way to speed up the game and this one just bogs it down. I think it might be fair at 3 cost but I still wouldn't care for it, sorry.


Great idea, and its simple except that you have to remember to do something later in the turn. I wish there was a way to word it better so you don't have that issue but I doubt there is.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 01:46:54 am by MattLee »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #684 on: January 03, 2017, 03:09:32 pm »
0



So here's a card that came up in Kru5h's fan card idea thread. I think it might fit as a replacement for Invaders. Any thoughts?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #685 on: January 10, 2017, 08:23:59 am »
+2

Sorry for answering this late, MattLee. I kind of left the forums, so my posts here will be infrequent at best. My cards are not being developed further here, to be honest, although I did mod some of them by now. Mostly the Spellcasters, though. (@thetaSigma12: The Event Glory is back at a cost of 9$ and replaces Invader already. If that doesn't work I'd probably just kill the idea.)

About your points:

Sultan is a bit weird and if I was a designer like Donald X who has to live with something forever after revealing it, I probably wouldn't reveal Sultan. I still recommend not evaluating it on Colony games alone, as that seems a bit extreme. Maybe the card could actually cost 2$ so it is available for everybody every time, like Chapel. You could actually open Sultan/Duchy then.

Hospital isn't my greatest design, either. I recommend combining it with trashers to get the full experience, though.

Investor originally simply gave you 3 debt and 3 coin tokens, if you like that better. It's a bit stronger, but I mostly removed it to avoid expansion-mashup-cards.

Try Meadow with good trash-for-Benefit or Alt-VP cards. It can be a beast there.

Cards of mine I think I can recommend to try out: Homunculus, Sunken City, Well, Town, Farmer, Sheriff, Scientist, Sawmill, Maze
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #686 on: January 12, 2017, 11:28:59 pm »
0

I updated the OP to include some changes as well as the outtakes and changed Craftsmen to being optional. This thread should now have everything asper-ish you ever wanted in a state I can live with. Except Seasons, of course, as those aren't mine alone and they are not worked on any more.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #687 on: January 13, 2017, 07:49:38 am »
0

You still explain Borderlands. Is that intentional? You don't talk about any of the other outtakes.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #688 on: January 13, 2017, 12:10:04 pm »
0

A few minor things:

Carrier: It should say "If no-one else does, +." to mirror Tournament.

Nightwatch: Attack should be capital, see Squire.

Iron Maiden: It should say:
Quote
If yours is an...
Action card, +2 Actions
Treasure card, +
Victory card, +2 Cards
Each other player gains, if theirs is an...
Action card, a Ruins
Treasure card, a Copper
Victory card, a Curse.

Hospital: Like carrier, it should say "If you do, +1 ."

Hunter: "Mat" doesn't need to be capitalized.

Investor: "Coin token", not "coin token"

Assemble: Right now it's not clear that you gain a card costing up to more than the trashed one, it could easily refer to the Copper.

Blessing: The +Buy should be moved inside the "Once per turn:". See the new Borrow.

Parting, Bargain, Sherrif: "Token" shouldn't be capitalized.

Magician: The "()" aren't necessary.

Harm: It should end with a period, not a semicolon.

A few other optimizations that aren't as necessary:
Decree, Research: It could say "onto" instead of "on top of"
Sunken City: It could say: "it's" instead of "it is"
Nightwatch: "Players other than that one" would be clearer I think.
Sultan: This is shorter:
Quote
You may discard a Victory card, to gain a Treasure costing at most the same onto your deck.
Well: It would be nice if the text was nudged up a bit.
Hospital: "Gain a Copper to your hand" is shorter.
Hunter: See Well.
Assemble: "Putting them onto your deck" is shorter.
Inquisitor: The first symbol is really off center. Maybe delete one of those spaces.
Maze: See above.
Necromancer: You could nudge the text up, "Zombie cards" can just be "Zombies", and "is not" can be "isn't".
Incantation and Farmer: I think it should be "into your hand" instead of "in your hand"
Purity: Maybe change the text so it fits more.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #689 on: January 13, 2017, 07:26:01 pm »
+2

You still explain Borderlands. Is that intentional? You don't talk about any of the other outtakes.

Removed the explanation for Borderlands.

A few minor things:

Carrier: It should say "If no-one else does, +." to mirror Tournament.

Nightwatch: Attack should be capital, see Squire.

Iron Maiden: It should say:
Quote
If yours is an...
Action card, +2 Actions
Treasure card, +
Victory card, +2 Cards
Each other player gains, if theirs is an...
Action card, a Ruins
Treasure card, a Copper
Victory card, a Curse.

Hospital: Like carrier, it should say "If you do, +1 ."

Hunter: "Mat" doesn't need to be capitalized.

Investor: "Coin token", not "coin token"

Assemble: Right now it's not clear that you gain a card costing up to more than the trashed one, it could easily refer to the Copper.

Blessing: The +Buy should be moved inside the "Once per turn:". See the new Borrow.

Parting, Bargain, Sherrif: "Token" shouldn't be capitalized.

Magician: The "()" aren't necessary.

Harm: It should end with a period, not a semicolon.

A few other optimizations that aren't as necessary:
Decree, Research: It could say "onto" instead of "on top of"
Sunken City: It could say: "it's" instead of "it is"
Nightwatch: "Players other than that one" would be clearer I think.
Sultan: This is shorter:
Quote
You may discard a Victory card, to gain a Treasure costing at most the same onto your deck.
Well: It would be nice if the text was nudged up a bit.
Hospital: "Gain a Copper to your hand" is shorter.
Hunter: See Well.
Assemble: "Putting them onto your deck" is shorter.
Inquisitor: The first symbol is really off center. Maybe delete one of those spaces.
Maze: See above.
Necromancer: You could nudge the text up, "Zombie cards" can just be "Zombies", and "is not" can be "isn't".
Incantation and Farmer: I think it should be "into your hand" instead of "in your hand"
Purity: Maybe change the text so it fits more.

Yeah, I'm not going to fix either of those. It's exactly the kind of un-fun work that made me want to stop doing fan cards. Feel free to make fixes yourself.
It's good to know Borrow is being changed, though, because that made no sense at all. You'll just have to assume you're playing the old Asper's cards edition that was printed by Hasbro.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 07:27:31 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #690 on: January 13, 2017, 07:30:57 pm »
0

OK, I just wanted to point it out ;).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #691 on: January 13, 2017, 07:33:58 pm »
+2

OK, I just wanted to point it out ;).
I completely agree with Asper and would go on to say that that particular type of feedback on tiny unimportant details is more annoying than helpful (it would be for me anyway). just fyi
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 07:35:28 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #692 on: January 13, 2017, 08:01:36 pm »
+4

OK, I just wanted to point it out ;).
I completely agree with Asper and would go on to say that that particular type of feedback on tiny unimportant details is more annoying than helpful (it would be for me anyway). just fyi
Well, I find it really helpful, so I naturally err on the side of pointing it out. If other people don't like it that's OK, I'll stop.

In other words, it's been brought up before that people should never refrain from posting a card because the don't think the wording (Art, Mock-up, etc.) is good enough. I completely agree. However, the other side should be mentioned too: people shouldn't necessarily refrain from correcting wording or suggesting new wording because they aren't sure if it's wanted.
(of course if someone specifically says they don't want it then don't do it. That's common courtesy.)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 08:39:54 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #693 on: January 14, 2017, 04:34:17 am »
+1

It's just that I'm not willing to put the energy I used to into my cards. I want them to be halfway decent. Making them perfect takes so much more, and makes so little a difference.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #694 on: January 14, 2017, 08:09:36 am »
+2

It's just that I'm not willing to put the energy I used to into my cards. I want them to be halfway decent. Making them perfect takes so much more, and makes so little a difference.
Ironically, I was trying to help. I know from experience it's infinitely easier when somebody goes through and points out (hopefully) everything. Of course you don't have to change it, I'm not telling you that. I just want to make my intentions clear.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #695 on: January 16, 2017, 07:09:10 am »
+2

It's just that I'm not willing to put the energy I used to into my cards. I want them to be halfway decent. Making them perfect takes so much more, and makes so little a difference.
Ironically, I was trying to help. I know from experience it's infinitely easier when somebody goes through and points out (hopefully) everything. Of course you don't have to change it, I'm not telling you that. I just want to make my intentions clear.
Yes, I'm not saying you weren't. Don't take it as me being ungrateful, just as me not wanting to do the thing you were trying to help me with.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #696 on: January 26, 2017, 06:45:30 pm »
0

So I decided to mock up your cards like you graciously said I could, and I wondered if Inquisitor should say 10 per player, after all the Curse pile scales per player?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #697 on: January 26, 2017, 07:25:45 pm »
+2

So I decided to mock up your cards like you graciously said I could, and I wondered if Inquisitor should say 10 per player, after all the Curse pile scales per player?

I made the same mistake when I played with this card the first time, but no, I'm pretty sure it's just 10. Because you take 1 and give out coppers to each other player, so the number of coppers you give out will scale even though the number of tokens doesn't.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #698 on: January 26, 2017, 07:28:11 pm »
+1

So I decided to mock up your cards like you graciously said I could, and I wondered if Inquisitor should say 10 per player, after all the Curse pile scales per player?

I made the same mistake when I played with this card the first time, but no, I'm pretty sure it's just 10. Because you take 1 and give out coppers to each other player, so the number of coppers you give out will scale even though the number of tokens doesn't.
Ah, that makes sense. I didn't think about it that way.

I'm also interested in nerfing Hospital somehow. It just seems a bit too good with any decent trashing.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #699 on: January 26, 2017, 07:54:30 pm »
+1

Another fun fact that I'll say whether you care or not: Minister's art is actually by Patrick William Adam, which is based on Giovanni Battista Moroni's work a Portrait of Antonio Navagaro.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #700 on: January 26, 2017, 08:47:25 pm »
+2

Another fun fact that I'll say whether you care or not: Minister's art is actually by Patrick William Adam, which is based on Giovanni Battista Moroni's work a Portrait of Antonio Navagaro.
Thanks for this bit of info. It should be changed, I guess.

Also, yes, Inquisitor uses just 10 tokens. You could experiment with 12 or something like that, too. And finally, Hospital certainly isn't my best balanced card. You could add a trashing ability (on buy, for example) and cost it higher, make it a split pile with a Outpost-level trasher (although I dislike split piles, Carrier/Nightwatch being rather atypical), or something like that. Just nerfing it without otherwise changing the card seems bad to me.

Edit: Nurse, Action, $3
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck, trash the matches and discard the rest.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 08:54:36 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #701 on: February 02, 2017, 03:00:56 pm »
+1

I pondered about Sultan, and decided it belongs in the outtakes section. I just don't happen to find any suitable fix to make it anything but a good Gold gainer that requests you go for Provinces first. Meh. An idea was:

Quote
Sultan, 4$, Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a card to gain a Treasure costing up to 1$ more than it.

It's more expensive and allows gaining Silver for Estates or Gold for Duchies, but also to pseudo-Mint cash or put that second Smithy to good use. Hum. Maybe it would be more interesting if it was terminal?

I'm not sure whether I should also put Investor into outtakes. It just doesn't seem that interesting of a card. Either way, I went back to the old wording that just took both Debt and Coin Tokens. ThetaSigma's mockup made me realize the simplicity was worth mashing up expansion mechanics, after all.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 03:05:08 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #702 on: February 02, 2017, 03:18:01 pm »
+1

Investor is a great card! If you think it's unbalanced, that's different. But if you just think that it's not interesting, I'd beg to differ.

For Sultan, what if it was a Treasure? It would need a rename but could it work as:
Quote
Treasure,

+
When you play this, you may discard a card, to gain a Treasure costing exactly more than it.
Maybe too good? I like the price of though, as you can turn Sultans into Golds and your spare smithies into Sultans. I think that DBnator's Offertory covers your Current Sultan's ground pretty well, although that may be too good. But that's a discussion for later.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #703 on: February 02, 2017, 07:43:32 pm »
+1

Investor is a great card! If you think it's unbalanced, that's different. But if you just think that it's not interesting, I'd beg to differ.

For Sultan, what if it was a Treasure? It would need a rename but could it work as:
Quote
Treasure,

+
When you play this, you may discard a card, to gain a Treasure costing exactly more than it.
Maybe too good? I like the price of though, as you can turn Sultans into Golds and your spare smithies into Sultans. I think that DBnator's Offertory covers your Current Sultan's ground pretty well, although that may be too good. But that's a discussion for later.

The main advantage would be that my version could do Estate to Silver and Duchy to Gold. And my main problem is that I don't know what exactly I want Sultan to do. It was born to interact with Harem, but it just goes to tell that creating a card to fit a name still isn't such a great idea.

And yes, the issue with Investor is mostly balance. I didn't have time to really test it yet, but I feel it might be off.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #704 on: February 03, 2017, 07:30:00 am »
0

For Investor, you should just play around with and the Coin tokens. Like maybe , 2 Coin tokens, and cost . There should be some configuration that works.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #705 on: February 03, 2017, 09:29:39 am »
0

Well, maybe it's not really balance that's the issue, either. I'm probably just not sure it's actually fun to play.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #706 on: February 03, 2017, 03:57:02 pm »
0

For Investor, you should just play around with and the Coin tokens. Like maybe , 2 Coin tokens, and cost . There should be some configuration that works.
I think that there are other parameters one can play around with besided the values.
You could also make the card a Reaction that triggers when you discard it from hand or play. Non-terminality makes it stronger and Clean-up discarding changes the timing, i.e. Investor doesn't "ruin" (conditional on you not spending the Coin tokens) your buy power for the current move but only for the next move.

"Coin-ification" respectively Capital in the other direction is definitely an interesting design space.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 03:59:20 pm by weety4 »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #707 on: February 10, 2017, 01:47:24 pm »
+3

So, I decided to make Investor a Treasure card to ramp it up a bit. Ta-dah!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #708 on: February 10, 2017, 02:08:51 pm »
+1

Doesn't need the , see Charm.

It's better now, though, but I don't know how much.

EDIT: I see you moved Sultan to Outtakes, moved Extortioner from outtakes into your set, and changed Mage (formerly trickster) and Sorceress (formerly sorcerer). Anything else?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 02:47:07 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #709 on: February 10, 2017, 02:17:30 pm »
+2

Doesn't need the , see Charm.

It's better now though, but I don't know by how much.

Interesting, does this mean that we can expect the Horn of Plenty reprint to not have the ?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #710 on: February 10, 2017, 02:19:55 pm »
+1

Doesn't need the , see Charm.

It's better now though, but I don't know by how much.

Interesting, does this mean that we can expect the Horn of Plenty reprint to not have the ?
Hmm, the ShuffleIT one doesn't according to the Seprix's card texts.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #711 on: February 10, 2017, 06:11:40 pm »
+1

Doesn't need the , see Charm.

It's better now, though, but I don't know how much.

EDIT: I see you moved Sultan to Outtakes, moved Extortioner from outtakes into your set, and changed Mage (formerly trickster) and Sorceress (formerly sorcerer). Anything else?

No, that's all. Except I added Mage in addition to Trickster, which is still there. I should probably also do a Spellcaster that attacks on gain and call it Warlock :P
I wouldn't like to change Investment's coin icon until I know they changed Horn of Plenty, too. Either way, as I said, consider these old-school prints.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 06:13:46 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #712 on: February 11, 2017, 09:19:25 am »
+1

Apparently, HoP does have a large 0 on it in ShuffleIT, my bad. I wonder why it does and Charm doesn't?


EDIT: I like the old Investment better I decided. This one just seems too similar to Capital as a Treasure, and the Action version just seemed cooler. I think I'd like it costing , giving and 2 Tokens. But whatever.

Regarding Spellcasters, Trickster and Mage seem too similar.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 10:09:50 am by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #713 on: February 11, 2017, 11:28:38 am »
+3

Apparently, HoP does have a large 0 on it in ShuffleIT, my bad. I wonder why it does and Charm doesn't?


EDIT: I like the old Investment better I decided. This one just seems too similar to Capital as a Treasure, and the Action version just seemed cooler. I think I'd like it costing , giving and 2 Tokens. But whatever.

Regarding Spellcasters, Trickster and Mage seem too similar.

I think that it's because Charm has an option of giving money, so they didn't add the big $0 so that it wouldn't give conflicting information.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #714 on: February 11, 2017, 02:35:11 pm »
+1

Apparently, HoP does have a large 0 on it in ShuffleIT, my bad. I wonder why it does and Charm doesn't?


EDIT: I like the old Investment better I decided. This one just seems too similar to Capital as a Treasure, and the Action version just seemed cooler. I think I'd like it costing , giving and 2 Tokens. But whatever.

Regarding Spellcasters, Trickster and Mage seem too similar.
I hear your points but must admit I don't agree to them. Especially not to Mage and Trickster. I considered letting you overpay for Mage to prepare a Spell, but honestly I think it might be stronger than Trickster as is. Try them out in a game, see if they play similar. I don't think they will. Especially with an inherently complex mechanic like Spells, where small differences get amplified fast, I believe less iss better to start from. I can still apply sprinkles later.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #715 on: February 11, 2017, 08:06:22 pm »
+1

"Coin Token + Debt" would be an interesting overpay effect.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #716 on: February 11, 2017, 09:29:27 pm »
+1

Well, I tried an Event that translated 2$ into a  coin token, and it was automatic. Your idea seems reasonable in that it makes gathering tokens more of a challenge. However, I'm not sure whether paying twice and having to use a specific kingdom card doesn't go a bit too far. Also, gaining both tokens at once is already not a trivial effect, and as overpay cards have both a play and overpay effect, I'm not sure whether it would be a bit too much for my tastes.

By the way I don't disagree that Investment as a Treasuse card is a bit similar to Capital, Theta. I just don't feel that Investment was better as a terminal Action. It makes it much harder to get it to work in an engine, so its main application to me seems to be slog games, or the trivial strategy of playing Investment and then amassing tokens until you can buy a few Provinces. Maybe that will be an okay working strategy, but it's also really boring. I'd rather balance it as a nonterminal card so the number of strategies it goes with is more broad, or perhaps it even demands a more interesting strategy to be played. So if Investment turns out too similar to Capital, I'd probably rather kill the card than revert back to terminal. I hope this is more insightful than when I just said "Nah!" before. Sorry for that, I was in a hurry. :)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 09:30:51 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #717 on: February 18, 2017, 02:59:50 pm »
+4

So, I originally wanted to post this in the "Very bad card ideas" thread.

Then I figured, maybe I can make this not quite a very bad idea? Probably something in this direction has already been done, but I'm not exactly sure. What I'm sure of is that I heard "Message in a Bottle" as a suggested card name before. So, if I stole one of you guys' idea, I'd be glad to learn about it - at the very least it feels like it's slightly familiar... Either way:



Remarks:
  • Yes, apparently there are a lot of artists out there who draw Messages in Bottles. Hooray. And yes, if this turns out to be a good idea, I'm going to credit them individually.
  • It might not be necessary to give the cards different names, but better save than sorry, right?
  • In case it wasn't clear, the pile can be shuffled without any change in functionality. Of course the story of our lonely little bottle making it over the ocean won't be told as well. Who's that lady finding it in the end? How did the letter change shape? Who's the poor shmuck who felt he had to throw 10 messages in the water? Where did he get those bottles from?
  • As the cards are never referenced (unlike with Knights or Castles) I don't think an extra type is necessary.
  • It might be reasonable to always have the card gained by the player to your left to avoid "political" decisions in who gets it. However I doubt the harm done would be extremely big, as you WANT the other player be able to play the card, not draw it dead in their terminal draw + Treasure deck. It actually reduces the influence of whom you sit next to, so maybe it's good this way?
  • If you read this, thank you for spending your time with my ramblings :-) I draw my hat to your kindness.
  • For a while I thought it would be funny to have it passed to a player's left right once it gets bought/played, making the message return to you after a while. Then I realized that in a 2 player game, the bottle will be passed back and forth, ideally drawing you 2 extra cards per turn of your opponent. In other words, it would scale inversely with the player count. Wasn't worth it.
  • Also, polygon art!
  • Edit: Of course you have to take the token on gain, not buy, and put it in another player's discard pile... D'oh!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 06:46:41 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #718 on: February 18, 2017, 06:54:58 pm »
0

Huh, maybe it should instead say "This is gained into another player of your choice's discard pile instead of yours, whereas you take Bottle Token #X."
That would implement the "no-visit" rule to make sure it doesn't get covered up, although Watchtower would still work (if you choose to do WT first).

Maybe "When you gain this, put it in another player's discard pile, and if you do, take Bottle Token #X."?

What's better?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #719 on: February 18, 2017, 07:08:23 pm »
0

I think I got it!  ;D



Edit: To clarify why I'm happy: This doesn't visit your discard pile (new Nomad Camp wording) and therefore can't be covered up. If you topdeck it with Watchtower or Travelling Fair, however, you also don't get the token. Also you can put it in another player's discard even if it's gained in your action phase, etc.

Edit 2: I guess it gets a bit weird with Inheritance (I buy an Estate and put it in your discard pile), but a lot of cards do. I can live with it.
FAQ: Estates put in my discard pile are my Estates, not Estates of the player who gained them.

Edit 3: Probably this is much too strong for 2$. After all, it's a Lab, even though it's not me who plays it. Maybe 4$ would be more appropriate? Just don't buy them on trash-for-benefit boards :P
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 10:32:01 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #720 on: February 19, 2017, 02:47:52 am »
+1

I don't think you need to worry about the no-visit rule, cf Nomad Camp, no?

2$ does seem cheap for its effect. 4$ might be ok. I have a feeling people will not like it though, getting their deck flooded with cards that help another player. I feel like the passing version would be better in that sense.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #721 on: February 19, 2017, 08:26:46 am »
0

Maybe it's too much like a directed attack when other players refuse to play it. Hum. The most relevant idea is that the tokens identify another player. Maybe I can do something different that uses the idea.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #722 on: February 19, 2017, 08:55:16 am »
+1

In the german forum, someone suggested this much simpler version which can do without tokens and different art:

Message in a Bottle, Action, 3$
+1 Card
+1 Action
The player to your right draws a card.
---
This is gained into the player to your left's discard pile.

Edit: Alternative:
Message in a Bottle, Action, 2$
+1 Card
+1 Action
The player to your right may gain a card costing up to 4$ that is not a Message in a Bottle.
---
This is gained into the player to your left's discard pile.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 09:32:37 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #723 on: February 19, 2017, 09:58:53 am »
+1

So, I actually tested a card similar to Message in a Bottle.  My card is somewhere on f.ds, but I'll just dig it out of my files.

Quote
Generous Gift, Action, $2
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
The player to your right may discard a card to draw a card.

When you gain this card, put it in the discard pile of a player of your choice.

First, I'll say that this was a really fun card. It led to passive-aggressive gift-giving battles, and they were just intrinsically fun.

Second, unfortunately there is some politics.  Receiving a gift usually hurts you, for several reasons: a) Cantrips on their own are often bad when there's sifting, and Generous Gift itself provides sifting b) Often you'd rather treat it as a dead card than give your opponent an extra card, and c) You might take the effort to trash the card.

My card has a few differences, and I don't mind if you borrow some or all of the ideas from it.  It gives +Buy, which somewhat offsets the disadvantage of receiving a Generous Gift, and enables you to retaliate with more Gifts.  It requires the player to your right to discard a card first, which moderates its strength (often you might just discard a Generous Gift).  The precise mechanics of gaining is different, although I don't know that it is better.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #724 on: February 19, 2017, 01:48:50 pm »
0

So, I actually tested a card similar to Message in a Bottle.  My card is somewhere on f.ds, but I'll just dig it out of my files.

Quote
Generous Gift, Action, $2
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
The player to your right may discard a card to draw a card.

When you gain this card, put it in the discard pile of a player of your choice.

First, I'll say that this was a really fun card. It led to passive-aggressive gift-giving battles, and they were just intrinsically fun.

Second, unfortunately there is some politics.  Receiving a gift usually hurts you, for several reasons: a) Cantrips on their own are often bad when there's sifting, and Generous Gift itself provides sifting b) Often you'd rather treat it as a dead card than give your opponent an extra card, and c) You might take the effort to trash the card.

My card has a few differences, and I don't mind if you borrow some or all of the ideas from it.  It gives +Buy, which somewhat offsets the disadvantage of receiving a Generous Gift, and enables you to retaliate with more Gifts.  It requires the player to your right to discard a card first, which moderates its strength (often you might just discard a Generous Gift).  The precise mechanics of gaining is different, although I don't know that it is better.

I feared I had seen it before...

The only real purpose of the (admittedly more complicated) Nomad Camp wording was to avoid scenarios where you use some obscure interaction to put the card in your deck AND take the token. Of course, there's no reason for this if the bonus always goes to the player to your right.

But the point about not playing the card to avoid letting another player draw a card is indeed a thing I worried about, myself. Maybe if the bonus is something more harmless, the "gifted" player won't mind it as much, like in the alternative described above?

I guess this card idea was twofold: First, tokens to connect players with individual copies of a card. Maybe I can make something out of this. Second, a card you put in another player's deck to get a bonus when it's played. This is exactly what your original idea is about, so I guess the current version of Message in a Bottle is just my take on your idea. It's a nice idea, though. Thank your for linking to your thread :)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 01:56:10 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #725 on: February 19, 2017, 02:53:37 pm »
+1

FWIW, I think I took the idea from someone else who created several cards that passed to adjacent players and provided you with off-turn bonuses.

But the point about not playing the card to avoid letting another player draw a card is indeed a thing I worried about, myself. Maybe if the bonus is something more harmless, the "gifted" player won't mind it as much, like in the alternative described above?
Yeah, I agree that the bonus should be small.  You have to imagine you have a Message in a Bottle in hand, would you play it to get +1 card if it also gives a bonus to an opponent?  If the bonus is +1 card or better, the answer is often no.

But it's not as bad as it sounds.  With 2 players, there are no true politics, and in 3+ players you're less willing to hurt yourself just to hurt a single opponent.

The tokens are a neat idea.  I think you'd want to give your Message in a Bottle to the player who is thin, but not so thin that they can easily trash Message in a Bottle.  So choosing which player can be an interesting decision in itself.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #726 on: February 19, 2017, 06:04:30 pm »
0

In another forum, somebody pointed out that the tokens also add a level of politicalnes. I have two Coppers, a Silver and two MiaB in hand, but from different owners. I'll probably not have to play both to get to 5$, so who gets the advantage?

Not sure I'm currently able to solve the problems this has. At the very least, my current ideas won't really add anything substantial that hasn't already been there.

Also, I do believe I remember where I heard of this idea before. Donald X once tried to prove a point about how he already had every good fan card idea before and looked at a single fan card thread, critizising a few cards from it. I do believe one of those cards was a variant of this.

Maybe I'll have a grand idea how to add something here in due time...
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #727 on: February 19, 2017, 06:43:28 pm »
+2

Yeah, I agree that the bonus should be small.  You have to imagine you have a Message in a Bottle in hand, would you play it to get +1 card if it also gives a bonus to an opponent?  If the bonus is +1 card or better, the answer is often no.

One way to solve that is to spread out the bonus over more than one card. Just as a proof of concept:

Quote
Message in a bottle
+1 Card
+1 Action
The player to your right flips their Bottle token over. If it's face up, they draw a card.

When you buy this, put it and a copy of it in the discard pile of the player to your left.

Important part being the fact that they gain two cards, not the exact way the bonus works.


Another (unrelated) idea that also solves the "benefit" problem would be to have a single shared Bottle token, that you take when you play or buy a Message in a Bottle card, so that playing the card means you will be the next one to benefit from it. It doesn't preserve the original idea of the card, though.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 06:45:25 pm by pacovf »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #728 on: February 22, 2017, 09:15:40 am »
+3

I suppose this was done already?

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #729 on: February 22, 2017, 09:19:50 am »
+2

I suppose this was done already?


Yeah, see GeneralRamos' Archipelago. It doesn't have the +1 Card on play, the trashing on calling, and on Buy not on Gain trigger. Yours might be good but Archipelago is one of my favorites.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #730 on: February 22, 2017, 02:22:46 pm »
+1

Thank you, kind ThetaSigma12. I will check out Archipelago immediately. Have you played with it? I suspected the trashing would be necessary so you can't just play and call the same copy every turn.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #731 on: February 22, 2017, 02:46:33 pm »
+1

Thank you, kind ThetaSigma12. I will check out Archipelago immediately. Have you played with it? I suspected the trashing would be necessary so you can't just play and call the same copy every turn.
Yeah I played a game or 2 with it. The only thing I know is having it called on Buy is better than Gain, to stop stalling the game as much, though trashing might overcome that.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #732 on: February 22, 2017, 04:07:27 pm »
+2

Thank you, kind ThetaSigma12. I will check out Archipelago immediately. Have you played with it? I suspected the trashing would be necessary so you can't just play and call the same copy every turn.
Yeah I played a game or 2 with it. The only thing I know is having it called on Buy is better than Gain, to stop stalling the game as much, though trashing might overcome that.
Can you please put a link to this Archipelago card? Don't know where to find it.  Thanks :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #733 on: February 22, 2017, 04:08:28 pm »
+1

I suppose this was done already?


Diggin' it, as always Asper.  I feel like it has a unique place. 
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #734 on: February 22, 2017, 05:23:25 pm »
+6

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14361.msg550202#msg550202 for the original, but there's my fjnctionally identical version under other carcs in my thread (click the link in my signature.

EDIT: 1000th post, this had better get me dozens od upvotes.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #735 on: February 22, 2017, 06:01:28 pm »
0

Thank you, kind ThetaSigma12. I will check out Archipelago immediately. Have you played with it? I suspected the trashing would be necessary so you can't just play and call the same copy every turn.
Yeah I played a game or 2 with it. The only thing I know is having it called on Buy is better than Gain, to stop stalling the game as much, though trashing might overcome that.
Well, as people already mentioned in the original thread, on buy causes weird interactions, as a bought card is still in the supply. Considering Talisman's wording, you could even make a point that the top card of the pile you bought from getting moved doesn't keep you from gaining the card below it. In other words, on buy this would make me move the top Province of the pile (to my Tavern Mat) before I gain a Province for my buy. You could solve that by saying "when you gain a Victory card in your buy phase", but as this still doesn't stop a "4 Silvers and this" deck from just buying a Province every turn, I think the trash option is better altogether, to be honest.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #736 on: February 22, 2017, 10:40:23 pm »
+9

We often had the topics of Events and Landmarks, and how they could be expanded by further sideways non-cards. You know, things that just change the rules, without resorting to the buying mechanic, or just caring about points. Today I decided to give it a try myself.

The first issue with a thing like this is that they are hard to remember. You can check Events during your buy phase, and Landmarks are about VP, so they will catch your attention automatically. They also have a special color. So I thought, if Events are white and rather simple, like the default Actions cards, and Landmarks are green and about points, like VP-cards, then this new thing about effects that can happen at any time should maybe also take the color scheme of cards that can trigger at any time: So, reaction-blue.

As a theme, I went with an old naming idea LastFootnote had: Edicts. He also named most of them after expressions from politics, and I felt that fit, so I kept it.

The following are more exemplary than anything. Please note that I intentionally made it so that the effects are all triggered by a player wanting it - this way, if you forget an Edict, you're not cheating. Also, I tried to make sure none of these can trivially be implemented as an Event or Landmark...

« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 01:01:17 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #737 on: February 22, 2017, 11:19:28 pm »
+4

All of those Edicts look fun and I want to play with all of them.

Er, maybe not all at once.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #738 on: February 22, 2017, 11:22:31 pm »
+3

so other players can demand that you put a victory card on your deck but, like, do you have to do it?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #739 on: February 22, 2017, 11:24:45 pm »
+2

I really like the edicts as well :)  I want more!  I like Equality and Appeasement the best I think, but they are all good. 
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #740 on: February 23, 2017, 12:53:00 am »
0

so other players can demand that you put a victory card on your deck but, like, do you have to do it?
Well, that's implied. But you are right, it's not technically spelled out.

What's bugging me more is that I actually made the same mistake with Bureaucracy that I pointed out just one post before it: If you move the Victory card on buy, you technically still gain the card below it (see Talisman). I'll fix that. Edit: Fixed.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 01:01:36 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #741 on: February 23, 2017, 01:07:06 am »
0

All of those Edicts look fun and I want to play with all of them.

Er, maybe not all at once.

I really like the edicts as well :)  I want more!  I like Equality and Appeasement the best I think, but they are all good.

Thanks, you guys :)
I'm sure there's a lot more potential here, much of which has already been discussed by other forumites. Probably there are still some rather obvious options here. My biggest problem was that I think things should be Events if they reasonably can, so I skipped one or two more ideas I had.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #742 on: February 23, 2017, 07:21:14 am »
+2

These look cool! My favorite part is that the shields on Equality match the VP shield color.

Where do you get your art from?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #743 on: February 23, 2017, 09:30:06 am »
0

These look cool! My favorite part is that the shields on Equality match the VP shield color.

Where do you get your art from?
The internet. My first address is deviantart, usually. With these 6, they are all from there.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #744 on: February 23, 2017, 10:00:08 am »
+2

Bureaucracy's wording is kind of funky. I would go with the more "standard":

"When you gain a victory card, the player to your left may make you put it onto your deck."
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #745 on: February 23, 2017, 10:26:30 am »
0

Bureaucracy's wording is kind of funky. I would go with the more "standard":

"When you gain a victory card, the player to your left may make you put it onto your deck."
I'm uploading another one as we speak. It's not the player to your left alone, though. We don't want people screaming "Why did you have to remind him, Jack?!" over the table.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #746 on: February 23, 2017, 10:31:01 am »
0

Oh boy, now it's my chance to criticize somebody's new mechanic!  ;)

In all seriousness, they look great, thougn I still prefer my Landforms.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #747 on: February 23, 2017, 10:51:01 am »
+3

Some fixes and changes:


Equality now has you looking at the cards, instead of stacking a bunch of backsides that look the same :P


Bureaucracy now states that the demand must be fulfilled.


An alternative version of Appeasement that makes Estates Moats (Edit: more or less). I felt the debt and attack thing was a bit too complex for something you might forget as easily, especially as attacks aren't always in the kingdom. However, as I still wanted players to be able and make you lose money if you went for a certain strategy...


...here's a new one.


Oh boy, now it's my chance to criticize somebody's new mechanic!  ;)

In all seriousness, they look great, thougn I still prefer my Landforms.
In fact, some of these are inspired by ideas that appeared in your Landforms thread. However, as the mechanic is more general, it allows me to do pretty much any Landform you could come up with, without being limited to that. From my perspective, that's strictly better - especially as I think that, while tokens are a cute idea to use for one or two Edicts, they hardly need to be expanded over 6+ effects. But I told you that already.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 11:23:00 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #748 on: February 23, 2017, 11:24:08 am »
+2

Bureaucracy's wording is kind of funky. I would go with the more "standard":

"When you gain a victory card, the player to your left may make you put it onto your deck."
I'm uploading another one as we speak. It's not the player to your left alone, though. We don't want people screaming "Why did you have to remind him, Jack?!" over the table.

I always understood the "player to your left" to be a proxy for the whole table. Never have I encountered players getting mad at Jack for helping Bob come up with the right card to name when Alice plays a Contraband, for example.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #749 on: February 23, 2017, 11:51:16 am »
+2

I would like to see the edicts delve into even more rule changing territory.  Like using 12 kingdoms instead of 10.  things that change at the beginning of the game.  maybe another one could be use Platinums, but not colonies.  Didn't think through these, just wondering. 
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #750 on: February 23, 2017, 12:11:11 pm »
0

Bureaucracy's wording is kind of funky. I would go with the more "standard":

"When you gain a victory card, the player to your left may make you put it onto your deck."
I'm uploading another one as we speak. It's not the player to your left alone, though. We don't want people screaming "Why did you have to remind him, Jack?!" over the table.

I always understood the "player to your left" to be a proxy for the whole table. Never have I encountered players getting mad at Jack for helping Bob come up with the right card to name when Alice plays a Contraband, for example.

You have a point. Hum. I will think about this. Maybe if the triggers are easy enough to remember, or if doing an effect retroactively doesn't break the game (as with Tyranny), it could even work being simply mandatory, after all.

I would like to see the edicts delve into even more rule changing territory.  Like using 12 kingdoms instead of 10.  things that change at the beginning of the game.  maybe another one could be use Platinums, but not colonies.  Didn't think through these, just wondering. 
These are nice. I assume Colony without Platin is covered by Dominate, but this would be the opposite thing. And 12 kingdom piles, why not? You could also have the starting player being determined by a bidding mechanic, or increase the number of Provinces in the pile, and so on.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 12:22:41 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #751 on: February 23, 2017, 01:40:59 pm »
+4

Fixes to Bureaucracy and Tyranny: I think they can get away with being mandatory. If you only remember Tyranny a few seconds late, there's no issue, and Bureaucracy has an easy to remember trigger.




New, more fundamental stuff, including Nflicker's ideas:




Edit: Wording suggestions to Progress are welcome, by the way. It basically just tells you that the game doesn't end until each player had an equal number of turns. I tried to make it only stop the Province pile ending, originally, but was in a hurry and decided to just post it anway.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 06:10:06 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #752 on: February 23, 2017, 01:58:03 pm »
+2

Fixes to Bureaucracy and Tyranny: I think they can get away with being mandatory. If you only remember Tyranny a few seconds late, there's no issue, and Bureaucracy has an easy to remember trigger.


Yes, much better. For Tyranny especially; it is always a play mistake to not have your opponent take the - token when you can (ridiculous edge cases involving storyteller and controlling the shuffle aside); so why bother giving them a choice? It can only lead to unnecessary Kingmaking or favoritism.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #753 on: February 23, 2017, 02:00:56 pm »
+2

One way to rephrase progress:

"Only check for end of game conditions at the beginning of the starting player's turn."

You can make the wording funkier to avoid Outpost or Mission shenanigans, but I am not sure it's worth it.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #754 on: February 23, 2017, 02:11:31 pm »
+2

Very good, I like the new ones :)  And thanks :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #755 on: February 23, 2017, 02:46:38 pm »
+1

Ok, what about one that's a little crazier:  Pick a random kingdom supply pile not in the set of kingdoms.  Replace one of each players' starting estates (or ruins) with one copy of this card. 

If that's a little too crazy, maybe limit the card to costing only two coin, or three coins at most. 
Maybe it could be called Preparation.  Not sure of a good theme. 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 02:53:33 pm by Nflickner »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #756 on: February 23, 2017, 05:08:19 pm »
+3

Can you please correct the spelling on the Imperialism card from Platins to Platinums?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #757 on: February 23, 2017, 05:26:22 pm »
+2

Can you please correct the spelling on the Imperialism card from Platins to Platinums?

Oops, looks like a little German slipped in there.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #758 on: February 23, 2017, 05:31:53 pm »
+2

Can you please correct the spelling on the Imperialism card from Platins to Platinums?

Oh is that what Platins was supposed to be? I just figured it was some other fan card, lol.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #759 on: February 23, 2017, 06:11:13 pm »
+2

Fixed Imperialism (above). Also, here's a little something that seemed better as an Event than as an Edict:

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #760 on: February 23, 2017, 06:36:59 pm »
+1

I really like the idea of the rules of the game being changed slightly. I think an edict that required the game to end on a three-pile would be interesting, or one that bans silver or gold from being bought. Not sure how fun that would be though. I'm looking forward to trying out some of these. It's so much easier to use these than fanmade supply cards.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #761 on: February 23, 2017, 07:19:50 pm »
+2

Fixed the wording of Progress. I'm checking between turns, so it's clear the starting player won't be able to move again.



The second one is for all those alt-curse-lovers out there. Actually, it's just Inquisitor in Edict-shape.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #762 on: February 23, 2017, 08:04:17 pm »
0

I really like the idea of the rules of the game being changed slightly. I think an edict that required the game to end on a three-pile would be interesting, or one that bans silver or gold from being bought. Not sure how fun that would be though. I'm looking forward to trying out some of these. It's so much easier to use these than fanmade supply cards.

Thanks. In case you get lost with all the versions, the OP currently has the most recent ones.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #763 on: February 24, 2017, 12:39:07 am »
+2

Fixed Imperialism (above). Also, here's a little something that seemed better as an Event than as an Edict:

I love Black market variants!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Probably cause I love black market :) 
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #764 on: February 24, 2017, 12:54:40 am »
+2


Not to be nittpicky, but I just noticed you're using the same art for your Borderlands Landmark as well as your Exile edict.  I think the art is beautiful though. 
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #765 on: February 24, 2017, 07:48:45 am »
+1


Not to be nittpicky, but I just noticed you're using the same art for your Borderlands Landmark as well as your Exile edict.  I think the art is beautiful though.
The artist made 3 desert outposts, you could use one of the other 2.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #766 on: February 24, 2017, 07:50:22 am »
+1

Fixed Imperialism (above). Also, here's a little something that seemed better as an Event than as an Edict:


Reminds me of my old card Plot I posted about. I never got around to fixing it up, but your version is pretty close to how I was going to do it.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 08:14:13 am by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #767 on: February 24, 2017, 08:55:37 am »
0


Not to be nittpicky, but I just noticed you're using the same art for your Borderlands Landmark as well as your Exile edict.  I think the art is beautiful though.
The artist made 3 desert outposts, you could use one of the other 2.

Borderlands is dead, though.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #768 on: February 24, 2017, 12:23:06 pm »
+1


Not to be nittpicky, but I just noticed you're using the same art for your Borderlands Landmark as well as your Exile edict.  I think the art is beautiful though.
The artist made 3 desert outposts, you could use one of the other 2.

Borderlands is dead, though.

Somehow I missed your murdering of it.  Why don't you like it?  It seems like a fine card. 
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #769 on: February 24, 2017, 01:41:54 pm »
0


Not to be nittpicky, but I just noticed you're using the same art for your Borderlands Landmark as well as your Exile edict.  I think the art is beautiful though.
The artist made 3 desert outposts, you could use one of the other 2.

Borderlands is dead, though.

Somehow I missed your murdering of it.  Why don't you like it?  It seems like a fine card.

Admittedly, I didn't try it out as much, but I was afraid that it might drag out the game too much. Now two Estates are worth as much as a Duchy, and two Duchies are worth more than a Province. As Battlefield already encourages VP buys, while Tower rewards draining a pile (e.g. Duchy), it didn't feel original enough. And then the idea isn't even my own, as it was Fragasnap who had it first. So yeah, it doesn't really belong here.



To announce another murder, I put Hospital into Outtakes, because it is a pain to balance, and tends to be either unuseable or dominant, both of which stink. Keep in mind this doesn't necessarily mean I won't ever fix it. The outtakes are just stuff that I put in my drawer and might be taking out later.

Also, I'm going to test Lady-in-waiting at 3$, give Heir (with pretty new princess-y art) another shot, and will test both Tribunal and Olympic Village (though not necessarily in the same game). Also, I probably need another name for Olympic Village, as even though it's kind of fun it is too much of an anachronism. I mean, not as bad as Caesar, but whatever.

And finally, I put the Edicts in the OP. In that regard, a question:
What's better, Exile as an Edict, or Inquisitor as a Exiled-Witch variant? Or do they both suck?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 01:45:54 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #770 on: February 24, 2017, 04:44:00 pm »
+1

I never liked Inquisitor, so I'm fine with it in outtakes.

Tribunal and Olympic Village seem worth another shot.

Lady in Waiting and Heir both have art I'm not a fan of, but whatever.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #771 on: February 24, 2017, 04:52:00 pm »
+2

I like Exile as an edict, it's a nice change to things value. Although I'd rather it was non-optional, so that it could be sometimes good and sometimes bad depending on trashing levels.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #772 on: February 24, 2017, 05:19:42 pm »
+1

Hey Asper, how do you think Town and Road would be if it were combined into a split pile? I wouldn't suggest you change it to that, I'm just curious. Seems like Town could cost 3, and Road cost 2... but then Town would just be renamed Village which would be no good. 4 would probably be too high if you're not getting a free Road with it. Hmm.

Really like the Edicts by the way  :D
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 05:21:12 pm by MattLee »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #773 on: February 24, 2017, 05:37:26 pm »
+1

I like Exile as an edict, it's a nice change to things value. Although I'd rather it was non-optional, so that it could be sometimes good and sometimes bad depending on trashing levels.
I completely agree with everything here.  :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #774 on: February 24, 2017, 07:32:34 pm »
0

Hey Asper, how do you think Town and Road would be if it were combined into a split pile? I wouldn't suggest you change it to that, I'm just curious. Seems like Town could cost 3, and Road cost 2... but then Town would just be renamed Village which would be no good. 4 would probably be too high if you're not getting a free Road with it. Hmm.

Really like the Edicts by the way  :D

This was suggested several times in the past. I did not decide to change the cards for several reasons. One is that you have to pick up the cards in order, that is obviously you'd have to get Town first. In general, I'm not much of a fan of split piles, to be honest. Carrier and Nightwatch are actually more anti-split pile, in that the first card is weakened by the second. There is nothing good to gain from using the mechanic here in my opinion.

Another, more objective thing is that Road not being in the supply makes sure you can't put the +1 Action token on it. It still works with Champion, but those games are crazy either way.

I like Exile as an edict, it's a nice change to things value. Although I'd rather it was non-optional, so that it could be sometimes good and sometimes bad depending on trashing levels.
I completely agree with everything here.  :)
I guess it's quite doable as a mandatory rule in practice, and probably rule changes are more interesting if you can't just weasel (weasle?) out of them. So yeah, let's do mandatory.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 07:40:00 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #775 on: February 24, 2017, 07:44:00 pm »
0

Just realized that probably Equality will have to say "Setup" and mention you do this before drawing your starting hand. I'll fix it when I fix Exile.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #776 on: February 25, 2017, 11:24:41 pm »
0

Just playtested the Treasure version of Investment. Nope. Just nope. I don't even think it would have mattered whether it was an Action, as I just played it, paid of part of the tokens, repeated that and bought Provinces. It was awful. I played absolutely horrible, made several dumb decisions and still won. So, guess what goes to outtakes...
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #777 on: February 26, 2017, 12:43:00 am »
+1

Just playtested the Treasure version of Investment. Nope. Just nope. I don't even think it would have mattered whether it was an Action, as I just played it, paid of part of the tokens, repeated that and bought Provinces. It was awful. I played absolutely horrible, made several dumb decisions and still won. So, guess what goes to outtakes...

What if it was 2 coin tokens and 2 debt instead?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #778 on: February 26, 2017, 09:12:41 am »
0

Just playtested the Treasure version of Investment. Nope. Just nope. I don't even think it would have mattered whether it was an Action, as I just played it, paid of part of the tokens, repeated that and bought Provinces. It was awful. I played absolutely horrible, made several dumb decisions and still won. So, guess what goes to outtakes...

What if it was 2 coin tokens and 2 debt instead?

You can try it out if you like. I don't feel like it for now. Maybe I'll give it another shot in the future, like with Heir. To me, it looks like the concept itself is the problem - the card actively discourages getting any cards this turn.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #779 on: February 26, 2017, 04:00:41 pm »
+1

Here's the changes to the edicts:



Also, I altered the image on Restore from the Seasons thread. Co0kieL0rd isn't around anymore, so I still can't make "official" announcements about the state of Seasons, but I felt I could still try to fix some remaining issues up a bit. In this case, it's the historical art that didn't really do it for me.



I actually also tried out another color scheme for Season cards, even though I'm far from willing to re-do all of them right now...


Any opinions on this?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #780 on: February 26, 2017, 04:34:56 pm »
+1

I prefer the new colour scheme, but redoing all the cards seems annoying. Why did you also make the text box lighter?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #781 on: February 26, 2017, 06:27:35 pm »
+1

I prefer the new colour scheme, but redoing all the cards seems annoying. Why did you also make the text box lighter?

It just seems lighter because the old one is darker. It's not actually lighter than the standard color, methinks.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #782 on: February 26, 2017, 06:53:03 pm »
+2

So, I decided to change Blessing to be an Edict. I was proud of the Event version, but this one has the advantage that no one can complain about order issues ("You already spent your buy on Silver!").



Also, I'm updating the OP, including the TTS template, atm.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #783 on: February 26, 2017, 09:32:31 pm »
+2

I prefer the new colour scheme, but redoing all the cards seems annoying. Why did you also make the text box lighter?

It just seems lighter because the old one is darker. It's not actually lighter than the standard color, methinks.
I know it could be an optical illusion, but on close inspection, I'm pretty sure the new text box doesn't have the same level of pink tint that the old one did.  I'm not sure which version I like better.  I'm kind of partial to the old one because I've already printed out some of the old cards :)  But the new one is nice.  I think I would like the new one the best if it had a pinker tint to the text box. 
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #784 on: February 26, 2017, 11:43:14 pm »
+2

I prefer the new colour scheme, but redoing all the cards seems annoying. Why did you also make the text box lighter?

It just seems lighter because the old one is darker. It's not actually lighter than the standard color, methinks.
I know it could be an optical illusion, but on close inspection, I'm pretty sure the new text box doesn't have the same level of pink tint that the old one did.  I'm not sure which version I like better.  I'm kind of partial to the old one because I've already printed out some of the old cards :)  But the new one is nice.  I think I would like the new one the best if it had a pinker tint to the text box.
Yes, the tint is a bit different, I didn't deny that. I thought pacovf meant that I brightened the pink up in comparison to the standard color. If you're talking about the old text box color, it is indeed brighter.

The reason I wanted to change it was that with the official types, it's the banners that are more colorful than the text box. With the old design, it was the other way around, which made the cards look a bit atypical at the very least.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #785 on: February 27, 2017, 08:36:14 am »
+1

I like the old seasons template, and dislike the new one.

I don't like the changes to Blessing, an Event seemed so much better.

Can I have the edicts template please  :)?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #786 on: February 27, 2017, 08:57:29 am »
+1

I like the old seasons template, and dislike the new one.

I don't like the changes to Blessing, an Event seemed so much better.

Can I have the edicts template please  :)?

Can you give any reason why you don't like the new Blessing?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #787 on: February 27, 2017, 09:09:16 am »
+2

So, I decided to change Blessing to be an Edict. I was proud of the Event version, but this one has the advantage that no one can complain about order issues ("You already spent your buy on Silver!").



Also, I'm updating the OP, including the TTS template, atm.

If blessing gave a +Buy, than I like the edict more.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #788 on: February 27, 2017, 09:34:22 am »
+1

I like the old seasons template, and dislike the new one.

I don't like the changes to Blessing, an Event seemed so much better.

Can I have the edicts template please  :)?

Can you give any reason why you don't like the new Blessing?
Seems messier. I feel like people will forget it way more actually. They will just discard their hand and not realize since that's what they usually do. If it was "Once per turn, you may trash a card from your hand" I'd love it. It can't be implimented as an Event for starters, and allowing trashing mid action phase seems cool, and since you can do it anytime it seems easier to remeber.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #789 on: February 27, 2017, 11:06:37 am »
+2

I like the old seasons template, and dislike the new one.

I don't like the changes to Blessing, an Event seemed so much better.

Can I have the edicts template please  :)?

Can you give any reason why you don't like the new Blessing?
Seems messier. I feel like people will forget it way more actually. They will just discard their hand and not realize since that's what they usually do. If it was "Once per turn, you may trash a card from your hand" I'd love it. It can't be implimented as an Event for starters, and allowing trashing mid action phase seems cool, and since you can do it anytime it seems easier to remeber.

Anytime also means you have to remember for our entire turn whether you already did it. Also, Tactician aside, you usually have most cards in your hand at the end of the turn, making it not particularly useful to trash in the middle. Some Dark Ages interaction, but that's it. Not worth the trouble in my opinion. From my playing experience with the Event, you usually think of the trashing last. It'll be either this or the Event version, but nothing with a wide, turn-spanning trigger. Of course, one could do such an Edict, but trashing doesn't look like it really benefits from it to me.

So, I decided to change Blessing to be an Edict. I was proud of the Event version, but this one has the advantage that no one can complain about order issues ("You already spent your buy on Silver!").

Also, I'm updating the OP, including the TTS template, atm.

If blessing gave a +Buy, than I like the edict more.
It did. It was "Once per turn: +1 Buy, trash a card from your hand." for 0$. It had no issues, but as I think 12 Edicts are quite enough as proof-of-concept, I could also do some that only slightly benefit from it (like Arena does).



Here's another one that doesn't work as an Event:


Edit: Probably this can do without the "before drawing starting hands" section. I put it there because of Equality. Which is totally pointless, now that I think of it.
Edit: Also, I'll try to upload and link the template later today. Maybe I'll put it in the OP so people actually have to look at that from time to time ;)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 01:22:48 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #790 on: February 27, 2017, 12:17:14 pm »
+1

Two things--love the edicts, want mooooooaoaar!!!!!  Like blessing as edict. 
Also, I like looking at OP.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #791 on: February 27, 2017, 03:43:50 pm »
0

love the edicts, want mooooooaoaar!!!!!

Okay, you asked for it:



You did ask for this one, didn't you? I think somebody did. Glad to deliver. Also, I'm uploading the template right now.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #792 on: February 27, 2017, 03:53:46 pm »
+2

love the edicts, want mooooooaoaar!!!!!

Okay, you asked for it:



You did ask for this one, didn't you? I think somebody did. Glad to deliver. Also, I'm uploading the template right now.

I don't think this one can work. Imagine a game with Mountebank and no trashers. Yikes. Maybe change it to 5 empty piles instead?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #793 on: February 27, 2017, 03:58:33 pm »
+1

love the edicts, want mooooooaoaar!!!!!

Okay, you asked for it:



You did ask for this one, didn't you? I think somebody did. Glad to deliver. Also, I'm uploading the template right now.

I don't think this one can work. Imagine a game with Mountebank and no trashers. Yikes. Maybe change it to 5 empty piles instead?

I agree.  I think 5 empty piles is better. 
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #794 on: February 27, 2017, 04:06:14 pm »
+3

Hum, you're probably right, guys. Maybe 5 is already too much.

How about "The game does not end on 3 supply piles being empty, but on 4 or more."
Sure this has no effect on 5+ player games, but those are too long already.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 04:17:35 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #795 on: February 27, 2017, 04:32:36 pm »
+1

Or maybe make it so that the game only ends on piles if the Curse pile is also empty?

4 or more piles seems reasonable, I guess it only depends on how game warping you want it to be.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #796 on: February 27, 2017, 04:48:57 pm »
+1

Or maybe make it so that the game only ends on piles if the Curse pile is also empty?

4 or more piles seems reasonable, I guess it only depends on how game warping you want it to be.

That's not bad, either. For now I think I'm going to go with the one above, however.

About the template, I'm sorry, but it appears I consistently lose connection when trying to upload it. I'll try again tomorrow.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #797 on: February 28, 2017, 09:27:31 am »
+4

Here's the edict template.
Keep in mind that 88% of the retail generated with Edicts go to Asper Corp.
Terms and conditions apply.


~ Everything's great thanks to Asper Corp.
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Asper's Magical Seasonal Vanilla Tour
« Reply #798 on: March 06, 2017, 09:48:55 pm »
+6

Some simple stuff today:



And some magic, too:



Next, an Event:



And because it stole the art from Restore, that got another one yet:



Then, 2 more Season cards revisited:



And finally, as you can never have too many Season cards:
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #799 on: March 07, 2017, 07:16:50 am »
+2

What is a spell?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #800 on: March 07, 2017, 07:32:17 am »
+1

What is a spell?

Spellcasters are a mechanic I introduced a while ago. In short, you buy effects up front and trigger them by playing (or in Stone Circle's case: gaining) a Spellcaster. There are 6 Spells with very basic effects: Drawing 2 cards, trashing any number, gaining a 5$ card, giving out a Curse, getting +4$ and gaining a Province. Check them (and the rules) out in the freshly updated OP. (Sorry, I'm on mobile, can't append pics right now).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #801 on: March 08, 2017, 06:49:14 am »
+1

I think Werewolf is too strong. Do you guys think either of this would work?
(The only difference is the amount of money and the cost)



If yes, which is better? Or is the idea as such horrible?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #802 on: March 08, 2017, 07:43:32 am »
+1

I like the $5 more. :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #803 on: March 08, 2017, 08:21:33 am »
+2

I also like the more. This is a really cool idea, very thematic, too.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #804 on: March 08, 2017, 09:57:38 am »
+1

Here's another variant that doesn't cause such delay, but is less thematic (and maybe the self-synergy is lame):



Also, I decided to try Minister with an on-gain penalty again:

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #805 on: March 08, 2017, 10:13:05 am »
+1

I like the old Werewolf better.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #806 on: March 08, 2017, 02:12:56 pm »
+1

What is a spell?

Spellcasters are a mechanic I introduced a while ago. In short, you buy effects up front and trigger them by playing (or in Stone Circle's case: gaining) a Spellcaster. There are 6 Spells with very basic effects: Drawing 2 cards, trashing any number, gaining a 5$ card, giving out a Curse, getting +4$ and gaining a Province. Check them (and the rules) out in the freshly updated OP. (Sorry, I'm on mobile, can't append pics right now).

Hey so I just looked at the OP to get an explanation of Spells. You've got a Spell called Glory, which is $9, gain a Province, and say it's probably too cheap. Why is it too cheap? It sounds too expensive—"gain a Province later" shouldn't be more expensive than "gain a Province now", should it?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #807 on: March 08, 2017, 04:02:02 pm »
+2

What is a spell?

Spellcasters are a mechanic I introduced a while ago. In short, you buy effects up front and trigger them by playing (or in Stone Circle's case: gaining) a Spellcaster. There are 6 Spells with very basic effects: Drawing 2 cards, trashing any number, gaining a 5$ card, giving out a Curse, getting +4$ and gaining a Province. Check them (and the rules) out in the freshly updated OP. (Sorry, I'm on mobile, can't append pics right now).

Hey so I just looked at the OP to get an explanation of Spells. You've got a Spell called Glory, which is $9, gain a Province, and say it's probably too cheap. Why is it too cheap? It sounds too expensive—"gain a Province later" shouldn't be more expensive than "gain a Province now", should it?

Yeah I was just thinking the same thing. While I can see the advantage of "pay for a Province, but don't clog your deck with it until the game is almost over", it also has the drawbacks of "you only get the Province when you play a card that allows you to cast your spell" and "possibly pay for a Province, and never end up getting one". Kind of like Distant Lands in that way. So it might be balanced at if the rewards and the drawbacks cancel each other out. I guess in a game where I'm playing spells anyway, I'd more often than not spend my on a Glory than a Province, but it's definitely not strictly better.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #808 on: March 08, 2017, 05:22:40 pm »
+1

I understand that playtesting has shown that even 9$ is too cheap for Glory? Dunno.

About Werewolf: you could make it cheaper if you have a curse (or more?) in hand. It's thematic, and makes it weaker?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #809 on: March 08, 2017, 09:09:42 pm »
0

Yes, Glory is nuts. Playtesting has shown it to be really, really good. It might be okay for 8$, but I didn't have opportunity to try it out with the new versions of the Spellcasters.

I'm not happy with Werewolf. Maybe the oldest version works, but it looks rather strong. Hum. How would you guys say it compares to Legionary? What if it was the base version and gave a Silver with the curse?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #810 on: March 08, 2017, 11:07:32 pm »
+1

Yes, Glory is nuts. Playtesting has shown it to be really, really good. It might be okay for 8$, but I didn't have opportunity to try it out with the new versions of the Spellcasters.

I'm not happy with Werewolf. Maybe the oldest version works, but it looks rather strong. Hum. How would you guys say it compares to Legionary? What if it was the base version and gave a Silver with the curse?

This I think could be interesting. Might playtest it.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #811 on: March 08, 2017, 11:21:29 pm »
+2

First time commenting/thinking about fan cards, for what it's worth.

The first thing I thought of for Werewolf was Legionary, as you mention. Terminal gold, with a chance to attack. In my unprofessional opinion, I think the Legionary attack is far stronger than a curse - it has the potential to singlehandedly ruin your opponent's next turn. If their deck/hand is good enough to recover from the attack, it's probably also good enough to withstand a curse. However, you could play multiple werewolves a turn and the Werewolf attack will land more often than Legionary in the early game, so I honestly feel like Legionary and Werewolf are at a similar strength level. Werewolf would make for a better starting buy, but Legionary powers up when you can draw more of your deck. I'd probably still give Legionary the edge.

It's also really similar to Soothsayer though. Immediate payload versus adding Golds to the deck. Both are good for $5, but I'd prefer the Soothsayer actual gold over the Werewolf virtual gold. I guess that's balanced out by the extra card from Soothsayer.


So yeah, the original Werewolf seems perfectly fine and balanced to me. If you still want to weaken it, you could try gaining the curse to the hand, which would be an ever-so-slightly weaker attack, as long as there are no draw-to-x.


My one complaint is that it's too great of a card name to not give it a more Werewolf-esque functionality. I've never done a fan card and probably never will, so I'm not one to talk, but it would be cool to give it some kind of 'everyone else gains a Werewolf unless ....'. Or you could turn it into a season card, and do something with that. Idk, just my 2 cents; you're welcome to ignore this.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #812 on: March 09, 2017, 06:18:41 am »
+2

Yay! Thanks for posting your first fan card opionions in my thread, Skumpy :)
This was a really in-depth analysis. I think I'm okay with the very first version of Werewolf after all.

About theme, I actually felt Werewolf was already rather thematic, with your defense being Silver.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #813 on: March 09, 2017, 11:17:48 am »
+3

Decided to drop the +Buy from Stone Circle. Yeah, I know. Spellcasters are weird. It's still nice to have a few more of them if you have them at all. It feels much more rewarding to learn the rules for 10 cards than for 5. And to tell the truth, they don't even play that bad in practice :)
At least you don't have to make sure nobody forgets to move the Season token forward... But maybe that's just because it's so hard to view all of the table in TTS... Speaking of which, hooray, my cards finally don't fit on a single TTS template anymore.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #814 on: March 09, 2017, 11:53:22 am »
+1

Yay! Thanks for posting your first fan card opionions in my thread, Skumpy :)
This was a really in-depth analysis. I think I'm okay with the very first version of Werewolf after all.

About theme, I actually felt Werewolf was already rather thematic, with your defense being Silver.

Yeah, I should've seen the silver connection. That was a nice idea.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #815 on: March 11, 2017, 09:45:04 am »
+1

My thoughts on some of the recent changes:

Cliffside Village is really really really boring. I can't see a reason why it needs to exist.

Werewolf is thematic and cool. It seems a bit vanilla but the fact that discarding Silver is a unique trigger makes it stand out.

Minister needed the change IMO.

Improve is too vanilla-y for my taste. If it cost and said "Once per game:" then maybe I could buy into it.

Shaman and Conjurer are way too similar. I mean, the format "Vanilla Boni, you may cast a spell" was cool but these two just break it. 2 Terminal draw casters are too much.

Stone Circle is really cool. Maybe it could be cheaper, though. Wisdom, Wealth, and Purity aren't really good for casting in the buy phase.

Warlock should really be "You may cast a spell. If you did, each other player gains a curse" for or so. Again, Vanilla + Spell is really boring now.

Sorceress should have the + last just in case you care.

Mistress is a really cool card. I love it! However the wording and spacing looks horrendous, it should be:
Quote
+
Look through your discard pile. If it's Spring or Winter, you may shuffle all but up to 3 cards from it into your deck. Otherwise, you may shuffle up to 3 cards from it into your deck instead.

Heir had better art before IMO.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #816 on: March 11, 2017, 11:16:28 am »
0

Cliffside Village is really really really boring. I can't see a reason why it needs to exist.
I get your point, but on the other hand, it's not like Junk Dealer or Bazaar have that interesting effects, either. Sometimes it's nice to have a card that just fills a gap between all those attempsts to create something new. I assume Cliffside Village also gets less interesting because of Homuculus, which is also optional, so probably a little on-gain or friendly interaction could spice it up. I'll think of it when I get an idea like that.

Minister needed the change IMO.
Yeah, that just felt really not fun, to always give out stuff. Here you want it early so you get the most of it, which plays a lot better.

Improve is too vanilla-y for my taste. If it cost and said "Once per game:" then maybe I could buy into it.
I'd like to playtest it first before I change something. I know you like your stuff more complex, but I'd rather start with the most simple concept and see how it evolves.

Shaman and Conjurer are way too similar. I mean, the format "Vanilla Boni, you may cast a spell" was cool but these two just break it. 2 Terminal draw casters are too much.
I felt that way for a while, and inbetween Shaman had an overpay effect that allowed you to prepare a Spell. I felt that stripping it of this actually made the cards less similar, though. It's obvious that +3 cards are more than +2, but in fact the biggest difference between the two is the buy - which is huge for Spellcasters. Conjurer can, for example, be used in an engine, and always buy back the Spell it used. Shaman can't. That said, I'll keep my eyes open for a way to make these two less different, maybe dropping one of them. Which one do you think should be dropped, and why?

Stone Circle is really cool. Maybe it could be cheaper, though. Wisdom, Wealth, and Purity aren't really good for casting in the buy phase.
Purity works just fine. Just, you know, don't play those Coppers you intend to trash. Wisdom admittedly is useless in the buy phase, but it still works with gainers. Wealth works with gainers or +Buy. So basically, Wisdom is more or less dead on certain boards for Stone Circle. I can live with that, however. The price could possibly be dropped to 3$, though. I'll have to playtest it for a bit, first.

Warlock should really be "You may cast a spell. If you did, each other player gains a curse" for or so. Again, Vanilla + Spell is really boring now.
I don't think I want to tie a bonus to casting a Spell. I'd rather drop the card altogether.

Sorceress should have the + last just in case you care.
Oops, I'll fix that.
Edit: I also had that mistake on Extortioner. Fixed that one, too.


Mistress is a really cool card. I love it! However the wording and spacing looks horrendous, it should be:
Quote
+
Look through your discard pile. If it's Spring or Winter, you may shuffle all but up to 3 cards from it into your deck. Otherwise, you may shuffle up to 3 cards from it into your deck instead.
I don't like the "Otherwise". I prefer the Seasons to be spelled out. Anyhow:


Heir had better art before IMO.
Don't think I can say anything here besides that I kind of prefer this one.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 12:08:58 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #817 on: March 11, 2017, 11:43:50 am »
+1

Re Stone Circle:
It costs so it's hard to have enough copper still in your hand to make it worth while. Even if you have enough silver you'd probably be better off buying a .

Re Cliffside Village:
The difference there is that Seaside was the 3rd expansion, and Junk Dealer was the first cantrip trasher.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #818 on: March 11, 2017, 11:51:43 am »
+2

Junk Dealer was the first cantrip trasher.

Upgrade?

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #819 on: March 11, 2017, 11:59:20 am »
0

Junk Dealer was the first cantrip trasher.

Upgrade?
Oh yes. I always forget that exists.

Anyways, they are still significantly different that my point still stands I think.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #820 on: March 11, 2017, 12:07:37 pm »
+2

Anyways, they are still significantly different that my point still stands I think.
Yes, and Cliffside Village is significantly different from Junk Dealer. I mean, I can live without you liking the card. I think it's fine. I could spice it up, but your preferences aren't exactly binding, you know.

Re Stone Circle:
It costs so it's hard to have enough copper still in your hand to make it worth while. Even if you have enough silver you'd probably be better off buying a .
I'd say that depends on the board.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 12:09:32 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #821 on: March 12, 2017, 12:11:03 pm »
+2

I prefer the new colour scheme, but redoing all the cards seems annoying. Why did you also make the text box lighter?
perhaps you should get an impression of new grafic design here. Some cards are still changed in wording.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 06:14:45 am by herw »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #822 on: March 12, 2017, 12:39:54 pm »
+2

Cliffside's optional trashing almost makes me want it to cost $6. Have you considered that?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #823 on: March 12, 2017, 01:15:48 pm »
0

Cliffside's optional trashing almost makes me want it to cost $6. Have you considered that?
No, I didn't. I first wanted to make it mandatory, instead. I discarded that idea, because it meant the card would be dead later, when you actually need a Village. Now it's weaker than Junk Dealer early and better late. If it turns out to be too strong, here's what I'd do to fix it:

Cliffside Village, 5$, Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one:
+1 Action;
Trash a card from your hand
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #824 on: March 12, 2017, 01:20:03 pm »
+2

I prefer the new colour scheme, but redoing all the cards seems annoying. Why did you also make the text box lighter?
perhaps you should get an impression of new grafic design here. Some cards are still changed in wording.

For clarification, we talked over the Season cards over in the German forum, where the cards were translated into German and the changes you can see in the OP were applied. I thought about changing the color scheme, and well, it was decided to mock them up in the new one, over there. Not that it matters, functionally.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #825 on: March 12, 2017, 05:02:38 pm »
+2

Cliffside's optional trashing almost makes me want it to cost $6. Have you considered that?
No, I didn't. I first wanted to make it mandatory, instead. I discarded that idea, because it meant the card would be dead later, when you actually need a Village. Now it's weaker than Junk Dealer early and better late. If it turns out to be too strong, here's what I'd do to fix it:

Cliffside Village, 5$, Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one:
+1 Action;
Trash a card from your hand

Oh, I love this idea, actually.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #826 on: March 13, 2017, 12:09:17 pm »
+1

I decided to re-do the Season cards with bold Seasons. Also, Peltmonger now does the Woodcutter thing entirely on call, while Sojourner became a lot more similar to the original thread's version. Yeah, just let me know what you think of this. Also, Snow Witch now uses "onto", Mistress has better line breaks, etc.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #827 on: March 13, 2017, 12:17:15 pm »
+1

Do you have a season mat?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #828 on: March 13, 2017, 07:19:47 pm »
0

Do you have a season mat?

It's in the OP, together with the Season cards (at the lower part of the post, in the individual cards section).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #829 on: March 14, 2017, 08:20:33 pm »
0

Little fix on Exile: It now doesn't use the Island Mat anymore. Yeah I know, I could've done that from the start.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #830 on: March 14, 2017, 09:33:50 pm »
+2

Little fix on Exile: It now doesn't use the Island Mat anymore. Yeah I know, I could've done that from the start.

I always found it interesting that there's no actual "Island mat" according to the game; Island just tells you to set the cards aside.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #831 on: March 15, 2017, 01:41:29 am »
+2

Thanks for updating all your cards. It is great to have the whole set in one place with all the corrections. The cards look great.

I did some searching and found the photographer & photo for the image used on the Plantation card (the only one still unattributed):

“Tuscan Morning, Val d'Orcia, Italy” Photograph by Francesco Riccardo Iacomino
Go to http://francescoriccardoiacomino.com/tuscany
You will see a grid of images, look at the one three down, five to the right (at least with a "normal sized" browser window). The text “Open Space” will show up when you hover over the image.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #832 on: March 15, 2017, 02:48:22 am »
+1

Thanks for updating all your cards. It is great to have the whole set in one place with all the corrections. The cards look great.

I did some searching and found the photographer & photo for the image used on the Plantation card (the only one still unattributed):

“Tuscan Morning, Val d'Orcia, Italy” Photograph by Francesco Riccardo Iacomino
Go to http://francescoriccardoiacomino.com/tuscany
You will see a grid of images, look at the one three down, five to the right (at least with a "normal sized" browser window). The text “Open Space” will show up when you hover over the image.
It is very simple to find an illustration without name:
copy the illustration from card and store it. Then you can upload it to google picture search. You will get the original very quickly.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 02:51:20 am by herw »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #833 on: March 15, 2017, 05:25:38 am »
0

Thanks for the source, Thanar :)

Thanks for updating all your cards. It is great to have the whole set in one place with all the corrections. The cards look great.

I did some searching and found the photographer & photo for the image used on the Plantation card (the only one still unattributed):

“Tuscan Morning, Val d'Orcia, Italy” Photograph by Francesco Riccardo Iacomino
Go to http://francescoriccardoiacomino.com/tuscany
You will see a grid of images, look at the one three down, five to the right (at least with a "normal sized" browser window). The text “Open Space” will show up when you hover over the image.
It is very simple to find an illustration without name:
copy the illustration from card and store it. Then you can upload it to google picture search. You will get the original very quickly.

That's what I usually try, but sometimes you'll be stuck with stock photo or wallpaper sites, or pinterest without a link to the original.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #834 on: March 15, 2017, 05:27:49 am »
0

Little fix on Exile: It now doesn't use the Island Mat anymore. Yeah I know, I could've done that from the start.

I always found it interesting that there's no actual "Island mat" according to the game; Island just tells you to set the cards aside.

Interesting. The same applies to Pirate Ship, right? So this makes the change even more necessary.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #835 on: March 15, 2017, 07:22:58 am »
+2

Mistress says Fall, while all other season cards say Autumn.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #836 on: March 15, 2017, 09:01:39 am »
+1

Little fix on Exile: It now doesn't use the Island Mat anymore. Yeah I know, I could've done that from the start.

I always found it interesting that there's no actual "Island mat" according to the game; Island just tells you to set the cards aside.

Interesting. The same applies to Pirate Ship, right? So this makes the change even more necessary.
Further research shows that the ShuffleIT card does say Island mat, but the physical card doesn't.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #837 on: March 15, 2017, 09:38:59 am »
+2

It is very simple to find an illustration without name: copy the illustration from card and store it. Then you can upload it to google picture search. You will get the original very quickly.

Yes, that often works quickly. A more thorough search can be done with www.tineye.com (which I used in this case).

But for this image it took some extra work, since almost all the search results were for Wallpaper sites or other unattributed images (as Asper mentioned above). Eventually I found one that referenced a stock photography site (Thinkstock), and then moved my search there. But that site didn't support uploading an image to search their stock, which led to phase two, searching based on descriptions of the scene (Tuscany, landscape, etc.).

This particular location, a stunningly beautiful olive farm in Tuscany, Italy, has been photographed by many professional photographers. So I had to weed out images by other photographers who used slightly different perspectives and times of day. I finally found several images from the exact angle, with the little bales of hay to the left of the house in the precise configuration. And then found the one he took that has the light on in the house, and the right sunlight! From the very brief attribution info on the stock photo site, I was able to find the photographer's own website, his full name, etc.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 09:45:44 am by Thanar »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #838 on: March 15, 2017, 09:43:54 am »
+1

It is very simple to find an illustration without name: copy the illustration from card and store it. Then you can upload it to google picture search. You will get the original very quickly.

Yes, that usually works quickly. A more thorough search can be done with www.tineye.com (which I used in this case).
Really? It usually seems for me that TinEye is less efficient than google. Too many broken links and often it can't even find the image.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #839 on: March 15, 2017, 09:49:07 am »
+2

It is very simple to find an illustration without name: copy the illustration from card and store it. Then you can upload it to google picture search. You will get the original very quickly.

Yes, that usually works quickly. A more thorough search can be done with www.tineye.com (which I used in this case).
Really? It usually seems for me that TinEye is less efficient than google. Too many broken links and often it can't even find the image.
"Your mileage may vary." I usually try Google first, then TinEye, if Google isn't giving me the results I want. They arrange the results differently which can be good or bad depending on what you're looking for.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #840 on: March 15, 2017, 10:09:35 am »
+2

I'll be damned, every second Event I do makes you gain 5$ cards... Ah well. This still isn't so bad, is it?



Edit: It can't gain Duchies anymore.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 09:02:50 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #841 on: March 15, 2017, 10:41:47 am »
+3

This is neat. It is thematic, not swingy yet useful. Combos with City!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #842 on: March 15, 2017, 03:33:05 pm »
+3

I came to the conclusion that, as I'm always complaining when things are done with new mechanics without a need, and as re-using existing mechanics is kind of my "thing" here, I'll go back to Blessing as an Event. Hooray Event-Blessing!

Also, ThetaSigma and I had a conversation about an Event that gave people a buy if they needed one, and my approach was to give opponents an advantage instead of limiting the number of times you could do it. So here:

(It's once per turn to avoid people just emptying the supply with cost reducers, where obviously the sifting doesn't matter anymore)

And yes, I know, I'm not really posting that great stuff right now... It's more on a "Yeah, I guess you can do that" level atm... Either way, have another Edict:
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #843 on: March 16, 2017, 07:53:00 am »
+2



Ok, 0 cards in discard & draw. (I only have 5 cards and they are all in my hand.)

(Royal blacksmith has + 1 card token.)

I play a king's court-king's court-royal blacksmith-royal blacksmith-royal blacksmith

How many silvers can I gain?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #844 on: March 16, 2017, 09:53:33 am »
+1



Ok, 0 cards in discard & draw. (I only have 5 cards and they are all in my hand.)

(Royal blacksmith has + 1 card token.)

I play a king's court-king's court-royal blacksmith-royal blacksmith-royal blacksmith

How many silvers can I gain?

So, is your question about whether an empty deck counts as being shuffled? I rule no. But perhaps what you're saying is that this should be expressed on the card? I thought it was obvious that if there are no cards to shuffle you didn't shuffle (edit: Following Dominion's usual rules, you can try if you like, but you still won't). So the answer here is 0.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 09:54:47 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #845 on: March 16, 2017, 11:29:39 am »
+1

Yes, but what if you have only 1 card in there? Then you play RB, shuffle your discard pile, gain a silver to your discard pile, draw the card from your deck, shuffle the silver you just gained into your deck, etc. You'll end up drawing the whole silver pile, assuming you can Shuffle one card.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #846 on: March 16, 2017, 12:00:21 pm »
+2

Yes, but what if you have only 1 card in there? Then you play RB, shuffle your discard pile, gain a silver to your discard pile, draw the card from your deck, shuffle the silver you just gained into your deck, etc. You'll end up drawing the whole silver pile, assuming you can Shuffle one card.

As I recall, there was a long discussion in the rules forum about whether or not you could shuffle 1 card. I can't remember if there was a real-card application of the question. Donald has not given an official ruling, but he was torn between both options.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #847 on: March 16, 2017, 12:52:06 pm »
+1

I actually thought the ruling was that you can actually shuffle zero cards. But even if you can't, well, you can shuffle 1 card, so the same question in my hypotethical would be: what if you had one card in discard, how many silvers could you gain in such a situation.

(It was really a question, not a criticism, to be clear.)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #848 on: March 16, 2017, 01:45:48 pm »
+1

Quote
14. Moving cards from your deck

When you draw cards from your deck, each card is added to your hand as you draw it, and you may look at it (link).

The following applies to drawing, revealing, looking at, trashing, setting aside or discarding cards from your deck:
If there are not enough cards in your deck, move the cards you can, then shuffle the cards in your discard pile and form a new deck, then move the rest. If there still aren't enough cards, move the cards you can.

In the one-card version, you're shuffling once for each instance of drawing, so you'd get 9 new silvers. You don't check whether more cards have been added to your discard pile after you shuffled.

Given the lack of clarity in shuffling zero cards, I'd be tempted to make it "after you shuffle two or more cards during the game, you may gain a silver".
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 01:46:53 pm by Kingreaper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #849 on: March 16, 2017, 01:53:33 pm »
0

Quote
14. Moving cards from your deck

When you draw cards from your deck, each card is added to your hand as you draw it, and you may look at it (link).

The following applies to drawing, revealing, looking at, trashing, setting aside or discarding cards from your deck:
If there are not enough cards in your deck, move the cards you can, then shuffle the cards in your discard pile and form a new deck, then move the rest. If there still aren't enough cards, move the cards you can.

In the one-card version, you're shuffling once for each instance of drawing, so you'd get 9 new silvers. You don't check whether more cards have been added to your discard pile after you shuffled.

Given the lack of clarity in shuffling zero cards, I'd be tempted to make it "after you shuffle two or more cards during the game, you may gain a silver".

Yes, that's how it's supposed to go. I don't think I want to limit it to 2 or more cards, but perhaps the wording can be improved to clarify there have to be cards in the pile. Edit: Not sure what would be a good wording for this. I assumed you shuffle a single card as Inn also gets shuffled in a deck that consists of it alone.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 01:59:41 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #850 on: March 16, 2017, 02:02:18 pm »
0

Actually, now that I read Theta's reasoning, I admit it makes sense. obviously I don't want that. One solution would be to simply shuffle the Silver in.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #851 on: March 16, 2017, 03:25:09 pm »
+2

You could also limit it to once per turn.

EDIT: or you could set aside the "gained" silver, and only gain it at the end of your turn.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 04:38:44 pm by pacovf »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #852 on: March 16, 2017, 06:54:27 pm »
+1

I like the "Once per turn:" option, otherwise it seems like it could go nuts to easy. Draw your deck with Scrying Pool, then constantly shuffle your deck somehow. Buy conquest, profit.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #853 on: March 16, 2017, 09:36:09 pm »
+1

I like the "Once per turn:" option, otherwise it seems like it could go nuts to easy. Draw your deck with Scrying Pool, then constantly shuffle your deck somehow. Buy conquest, profit.

Hum... I'll think about this. I mean, your Scrying Pool example sounds nice, but not actually broken to me (neither with Conquest nor with Triumph). You're destroying that Scrying Pool engine, and, more importantly, you're leaving out how you actually manage to shuffle your deck repeatedly in a single turn. I could think of alternating between discarding a card with eg Oasis and shuffling once or twice for Scrying Pool (you first shuffle to get a deck, then - if lucky - can discard the Silver to shuffle again). Which gets you at 1.5 Silvers max per Action played. That's, uh, slightly better than Workshop?

Obviously I don't want the Edict to be abuseable, but the case you lined out doesn't really seem like a "thing" to me - at least not compared to Trader/Feodum/Conquest...
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #854 on: March 18, 2017, 09:10:36 pm »
+2

So, I thought a bit more about Message in a Bottle, and weirdly enough, the more I thought about it, the more similar it became to LastFootnote's Wanderer. I won't deny that LF had a huge influence on me in these forums - my template is originally his, and even though I'm sure that the idea of "something Event-ish" that just creates general rules changes was in a few people's heads for a while, it was him who first opened a thread about them, made concrete suggestions and gave them a name: Edicts. Actually, now that I dug this thread out, it feels that Prudence is definitely worth mocking up. (Edit: Although it might work as an Event)

Either way, the main reason why I mention all of this is that, while MiaB became more and more similar to Wanderer, I was actually pretty critical of the idea when LF proposed it. Even worse, when I considered having the card being passed around, I also decided to have it go right, first. Well, at least I understand why LF made that decision originally. So, in case you read this, LF, I'm sorry for all of that. It's a pretty tricky concept if you're on the oter side and are the one who tries to make it work :P  You also picked the perfect name for a card like this. Message in a Bottle is nice, but I feel the card needs to give a bonus when you gain it (to be worth it for the player who makes it come into play). I went with giving a token, and as VP seemed boring, a Coin Token seemed the best bet to me. Now, how do you name things that give Coin Tokens? Yes, after people, ideally jobs. Jobs or people that travel, obviously. Just, Minstrel is taken, Gleemen have only horrible pictures online, Traveller is a type already, and so on... So, Wanderer. Ah well...

With this introduction, I'd like to present what I ended up with. The similarities to LF's original are pretty strong:

<=LF's version on the right

Main difference is that my version gives a Coin Token and happens on gain, so the benefit for the player gaining it should be bigger. E.g. it allows changing the opening or using them for some late economy boost. Also, this one's nonterminal, which I think might mean it isn't a dead card and gets stuck or harms certain opponents. It's not as cheap as LF's version, although I'm not really sure how much a card that roughly translates to "Take a Coin token and be the first to get a great bonus" should cost. Well, at least it avoids buffing your 5/2 opening... I won't put this in the OP, because it's basically "my version" of the original card, but yeah, maybe someone likes the take nonetheless. Cheers :)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 10:18:12 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #855 on: March 20, 2017, 05:14:12 pm »
0

I fell like there should be some better name. You could go with "Sojourner" which means someone who temporarily resides somewhere, thematic because they're only in your deck for a bit. You could go with "Immigrant" or "Migrant" if that doesn't overlap with Migration too much. Or if sounding like Events isn't a problem, you could go with "Pilgrim". More thematic IMO Becuase they have a set destination (the other player's deck) not just aimless wandering. You said it needed to be a job, so you could go "Gypsy". "Itinerant", "Roamer", "Nomad", and "Drifter" all work somewhat too.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #856 on: March 20, 2017, 06:34:37 pm »
+2

...I don't think "gypsy" is a job!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #857 on: March 20, 2017, 06:44:49 pm »
+3

...I don't think "gypsy" is a job!
From Google:
A member of a traveling people traditionally living by itinerant trade and fortune telling.

I think that's a job enough. I guess it's a stretch but Wanderer isn't really a job either.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #858 on: March 20, 2017, 06:49:32 pm »
+2

...I don't think "gypsy" is a job!
From Google:
A member of a traveling people traditionally living by itinerant trade and fortune telling.

I think that's a job enough. I guess it's a stretch but Wanderer isn't really a job either.

Good Twitter tag: Professional Wanderer/Gypsy
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #859 on: March 20, 2017, 07:03:05 pm »
+1

...I don't think "gypsy" is a job!
From Google:
A member of a traveling people traditionally living by itinerant trade and fortune telling.

I think that's a job enough. I guess it's a stretch but Wanderer isn't really a job either.

I think you are misunderstanding that definition (doesn't help that you are cutting out the second sentence, and other sources make it clearer). It's (arguably?) an ethnicity, not a job nor an occupation. See, Roma people.

That was very off-topic, so I will stop this here.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #860 on: March 21, 2017, 08:00:47 am »
+3

Donald once mentioned that he would never make a card called "gipsy", as that word can be considered an insult. I thought about using a "gipsy" image and naming it differently, though. Let's say I didn't find any image I liked. Sojourner is the name of the Season one-shot, so that's taken. Drifter, Roamer and Itenerant don't really seem better than Wanderer, imo. I mean, they are different from LF's card name, but that's all.

I do like Pilgrim and Nomad. Pilgrim is probably my favourite. I actually like the religious touch here. A travelling monk, itenerant preacher etc would also fit, but Pilgrim is shorter.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #861 on: March 21, 2017, 08:12:21 am »
+4

Also, I'm going with pacovf here. The word mostly describes an ethnicity, although that group is - like most groups - associated with a certain culture. Also, I heard it was used as a slur. I'd rather err on the side of caution with words like that.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #862 on: March 24, 2017, 09:36:57 am »
+1

News:

I might drop Progress (game ends after last player's turn), Conservation (3-pile becomes 4-pile) and Tyranny (-1$ token when using non-Copper treasures). Let's say I printed out cards for the first time after years, and didn't desire to print them, even though they are single cards. Tyranny seems like you could still use the idea to give a penalty on something, but probably the original attack concept was better. Conservation might work with slight changes, but in general Reformation does a nicer job at altering how the game ends imo. Progress just seems... I don't know. Maybe I'm chicken, but it doesn't feel needed to me right now.

Here's one of the original Edicts in LF's thread implemented as an Event:

It might slow down the game too much, but on the other hand putting the cards on top of your deck means you can't play them this turn. Still, it does cause extra AP, and might work better as an Edict with a medium-rare trigger, or an Event that does something else besides that main effect for some money. Originally I wanted it to topdeck any number of cards, but I felt 5 was already plenty and might be slightly faster.

Also, Wanderer is Pilgrim now:

Still not different enough for the OP, I guess.

Last but not least, I dropped Warlock and Wizard for now, and the Spells finally tell you their type.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #863 on: March 24, 2017, 09:42:50 am »
+2

Harm should have a period at the end I think.

I never really liked warlock and Progress.

I'm glad you went with pilgrim, I think it's more thematic than Wanderer.

The limit of 5 on secret (interesting name?) seems like in most games it would never matter, and when it would it's not terribroken.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #864 on: March 24, 2017, 12:09:26 pm »
+1

Harm should have a period at the end I think.

I never really liked warlock and Progress.

I'm glad you went with pilgrim, I think it's more thematic than Wanderer.

The limit of 5 on secret (interesting name?) seems like in most games it would never matter, and when it would it's not terribroken.

Dangit, that ; is a leftover from a very old version. Thanks for pointing it out.

Can't really defend Warlock nor Progress. I thought they were worth a try, but part of that was because I wanted them to be worth it. Now that I had to consider printing, I'm also thinking that your point on Shaman is valid. I'll think about how to make it a tad more interesting. Maybe I'll just drop it completely and put that extra bit on Mage, instead.

I think it would matter whenever you can overdraw your deck. Also, I can't explain the name. It just came up.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 12:11:36 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #865 on: March 25, 2017, 07:12:12 am »
+2

I'll decrease the cost of Stone Circle to 3$, to buff its interaction with the Spell "Wealth".
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #866 on: March 25, 2017, 02:37:05 pm »
+1

I thought you said that testing showed Glory was very strong at $9? Now it's $8?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #867 on: March 25, 2017, 03:08:23 pm »
+1

I thought you said that testing showed Glory was very strong at $9? Now it's $8?

I did.

Part of the problem is that it was the strongest with an old form of Sorceress, which was a Peddler for 5$. I have come to the conclusion this older variant of Sorceress was partly responsible, and with two dimensions to check (Spellcasters and Spells) iit's rather hard to find the culprit. I'm going to test Glory at 8$ for now, but I can't guarantee it'll stay that way.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #868 on: March 27, 2017, 08:30:08 am »
+2

Tyranny is back to make BM players miserable. Just not as much. And in a much simpler way.


I removed Progress and Conservation, though.

Olympic Village is now Sanctuary.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #869 on: April 02, 2017, 09:55:59 am »
+1

Just noticed that Timberland is on buy. There's no reason for that. I'll change it to gain.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #870 on: April 02, 2017, 03:41:19 pm »
0

Fixed Timberland. Also, I think this is the color scheme I'll go with from now on for Seasons. It has a distinctive tint, but is easier to read than the last one I made, while avoiding that "2-coloredness" of the original color scheme.



In further news, I guess 9$ is the best cost for Glory, after all. Besides the point, I'm gonna watch Rick & morty now. Hooray!

Edit: Fixed the misspelling on Peltmonger.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 08:19:39 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #871 on: April 02, 2017, 08:08:00 pm »
+2

Thanks for the updated Season cards.

I think Peltmonger's type "Akction" should be "Action".
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #872 on: April 03, 2017, 01:25:02 pm »
0

Thanks for the updated Season cards.

I think Peltmonger's type "Akction" should be "Action".

Changed. Thanks for the heads-up :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #873 on: April 03, 2017, 01:45:30 pm »
+1

Just chiming in that I really liked the other Seasons template a lot more! No need to change anything though since I'll just make my own versions.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #874 on: April 03, 2017, 02:24:50 pm »
+2

Just chiming in that I really liked the other Seasons template a lot more! No need to change anything though since I'll just make my own versions.

Yeah, you already said that about an earlier version. I really don't like it, though. The fact that the text box has a far stronger color tint than the banners and that the banners are barely changed in color at all makes the old scheme look rather un-dominiony imo. So, I wasn't going to change it either way. As always, do whatever you please. This is the version 100% of the original Season creators who are currently active on fds support. If Co0kieL0rd returns, I'll gladly share the spot with him, and be curious to what he has to say about the color scheme. Until then, this is pretty much the most official Seasons version you'll get.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #875 on: April 03, 2017, 05:05:19 pm »
+2

While we're on spelling corrections, 'Sommer' on Student.

And a little question...

What were your thoughts on this adding 3 Provinces specifically? In 2-4 player games the Provinces can all be split evenly, but here in 2 and 4 player they can't be. Certainly the first player to get 6 in 2 players seems at a huge advantage if there's no alt VP.
Just that this could read 'add an extra Province to the Supply per player' if you were only aiming to make more time for things like Duke.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #876 on: April 03, 2017, 05:42:27 pm »
0

While we're on spelling corrections, 'Sommer' on Student.

And a little question...

What were your thoughts on this adding 3 Provinces specifically? In 2-4 player games the Provinces can all be split evenly, but here in 2 and 4 player they can't be. Certainly the first player to get 6 in 2 players seems at a huge advantage if there's no alt VP.
Just that this could read 'add an extra Province to the Supply per player' if you were only aiming to make more time for things like Duke.

I guess one extra Province per player solves the problem of splits. In fact, I seem to recall somebody already mentioned the split problem, but this solution seems nice and easy. I changed it. Dito for Student.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #877 on: April 04, 2017, 01:03:51 am »
+2

ThetaSigma, one question: You do mean the original Season template when saying "the other", right?
Is there something specific you prefer about it? My point is that the comperative degree of colorization between banner and text area seems inverse to normal Dominion, making it look alien. But perhaps there's something good about the old scheme you see that I forgot or am missing? I just wouldn't want to keep it only for nostalgia, either. And I mean probably it's not that great for you to have to create a new template if you wanna stay up to date, but I think it's clear I'll gladly share mine if you like. Maybe it won't live up to your standards, though.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #878 on: April 04, 2017, 06:51:47 am »
+1

The original template (Pink, the one Co0kiel0rd uses) is the one I like better than the one you are currently using (Magenta).

Mainly I really don't like the text box, it does not mesh with the border and is too light. I also prefer the pinkish color, Magenta seems to gaudy and dark.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #879 on: April 04, 2017, 08:29:04 am »
0

The original template (Pink, the one Co0kiel0rd uses) is the one I like better than the one you are currently using (Magenta).

Mainly I really don't like the text box, it does not mesh with the border and is too light. I also prefer the pinkish color, Magenta seems to gaudy and dark.

Okay, thanks for answering. The text box is in fact a bit darker than the standard one, I think(?). So, if you mean "light" in that sense, then yes, it's lighter than the one before, but I feel it's quite dark already. Going further I fear the texts to become less readable. It's less strongly tinted than the old one, too, but I prefer that, as it seems more in line with the official cards (not like Gardens' middle was pure green either). Maybe I could ramp up the tint a tad, though, so there's more contrast against the text? Lastly, I guess you can prefer pink over magenta, but that's not really objective, and personally I find magenta more pleasing to the eye.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #880 on: April 04, 2017, 08:35:49 am »
+1

Well, instead of ramping up the text box you could decrease the border color. That would work too. Right now the 2 are just too far apart.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #881 on: April 04, 2017, 09:48:52 am »
0

Well, instead of ramping up the text box you could decrease the border color. That would work too. Right now the 2 are just too far apart.

I guess I could. To some degree I think it's an optical illusion, though. I didn't have the text box color transition into the normal tone as you usually should for a card, so I think the tint might seem weaker than it is. I sincerely think the colors work together very well, though.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #882 on: April 06, 2017, 09:34:08 pm »
0

I don't know whether Spellcasters are something people even care about, but I decided to get Glory back to 9$ and cut Mage as well as Shaman. Sorceress is now Wizard (I had cut Wizard before but just liked the name so much) while Conjurer is Sorcerer now. Wizard also lost the buy and costs 5$ again. What can I say, it's tricky stuff.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #883 on: April 06, 2017, 09:55:20 pm »
+1

I don't know whether Spellcasters are something people even care about, but I decided to get Glory back to 9$ and cut Mage as well as Shaman. Sorceress is now Wizard (I had cut Wizard before but just liked the name so much) while Conjurer is Sorcerer now. Wizard also lost the buy and costs 5$ again. What can I say, it's tricky stuff.

I like the idea of the spells and keep intending to try them out, but the game is already complicated enough for the people I play with IRL, so I've been hesitating to introduce the mechanic to them, and I have no one else to try out the spellcaster cards with. Maybe sometime I'll try them out on TTS with someone here. Then again, trying to play on TTS at all is complicated in itself.

I'll probably introduce Seasons to my IRL group first. I still haven't done that yet.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #884 on: May 19, 2017, 02:53:31 pm »
0

Added team cards from that other thread. Also, I moved Meadow to outtakes. Cheers, guys.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #885 on: July 03, 2017, 12:33:11 pm »
+2

Played a real-life game with Decree, Outlook, Stone Circle, Smithy, Remodel, Town, Sorcerer, Soothsayer, Maze and Market today. The Spells were Purity and Dexterity.

I got crushed trying to use Mazes without enough Actions, and even the Decrees didn't help. He never played with Spells before, but used them efficiently to trash down and get a Sorcerer early (he bought a Stone Circle and got the Sorcerer through the Dexterity spell, later trashed the Stone Circle through Purity). That trashed-down deck bought Towns and Roads, which often drew that deck in return. In the end he Remodeled Soothsayer Golds into Provinces.

Stone Circle may be my favorite Spellcaster for now. The other cards all seemed fun and well-balanced, too. I guess skipping Town as the only Village on a Smithy/Road/Sorcerer board was just dumb. The fact he got the hang of Spells as quickly makes me hope it's not as overly complex a concept, after all. Yaaay!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #886 on: July 24, 2017, 07:43:30 pm »
+1



I decided that Nightwatch is too expensive. It's technically strictly better than Oasis now when looking at the card alone, but as it lies underneath 5 Carriers, it has a slightly worse timing.



Also perhaps Sheriff is too good with straight +2$. Not sure I should throw in a buy when I reduce that to +1$, though. Any opinions here?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #887 on: July 25, 2017, 10:41:56 am »
+1

I think it's interesting to have Nightwatch strictly better, though I agree that it seemed a tad top expensive at .

Sherrif has never seemed that good when I've used it. This could just be due to a lack of skill or overbuying them, but I'm not happy to buy a Ruined Mine just to hand out a couple curses.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #888 on: July 25, 2017, 05:28:43 pm »
0

Sherrif has never seemed that good when I've used it. This could just be due to a lack of skill or overbuying them, but I'm not happy to buy a Ruined Mine just to hand out a couple curses.

So you feel you bought too many of them? I see.

...Man, I need people to play Dominion with again :(
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #889 on: July 25, 2017, 05:53:34 pm »
+1

You could change the wording of night watch to "you may discard a victory card for + $1. Then it is not strictly better than Oasis.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #890 on: July 25, 2017, 06:53:40 pm »
0

You could change the wording of night watch to "you may discard a victory card for + $1. Then it is not strictly better than Oasis.

Yes, I could, but that seems even worse than this card simply costing 4$. I mean, as it is it's already not strictly better than Oasis, as you can't access it as early.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #891 on: August 06, 2017, 07:32:34 am »
+2

I updated the art on Sanctuary



and dropped the second part of Tribunal



for now.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #892 on: August 09, 2017, 10:55:51 am »
0

I removed Mistress. It just doesn't do anything special enough that deserves the Seasons type.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #893 on: August 14, 2017, 08:48:26 pm »
+2

I have checked a few cards. All I gotta say is impressive work. Hard to imagine how much time you've spent on this, but congratulations on all the effort and hard work. I might try some if my friends are interested
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #894 on: August 15, 2017, 08:01:38 am »
0

I have checked a few cards. All I gotta say is impressive work. Hard to imagine how much time you've spent on this, but congratulations on all the effort and hard work. I might try some if my friends are interested

Thank you  :)
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #895 on: August 18, 2017, 05:01:52 pm »
+1

I updated the TTS templates in the opening post.

Furthermore, check out the cute new expansion symbol for the Spellcasters. I also buffed the "Harm" spell - or as certain members would say, it now attacks you, too.





Also, yes, I'm still not sure on the price for "Glory"...
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 10:24:16 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #896 on: August 19, 2017, 12:08:44 pm »
+2

So, there are a few things that get suggested a lot. Cards that reward you for having Curses, cards that are worth negative VP or give Curses on play, Reactions that deflect the attack, "Veto"-Reactions that keep you from getting the effect of a card you played... Most of these are ideas that don't work well in their basic form, but in some way or another they have nonetheless made their way into Dominion. Quest and a few Events and Landmarks from Empires reward you for having or even buying Curses, and Enchantress is as close to a "Veto" card as it'll get, I think. I did Minister to emulate "negative VP" cards, too.

So what about deflecting attacks? I never tried myself at making this concept non-horrible, so I felt, I got to write my master thesis, and fast. Why not give this a go instead? So, here goes a first concept for a Reaction that deflects attacks. Well, in fact it doesn't do that, but it attacks back harder when attacked.



My original plan was to have it play itself again, but that meant doubling the coin value. Halving the coin value per default seemed too bad to bother with. As is, the second sentence is a bit clunky, but "to make them do it again" could be understood to include players with only 3 cards left. I also tried "Lose your Revenge token to do this twice, otherwise do it once:" at the start instead, but that seemed weird because you don't "do" anything.

Please not that you can reveal an Assassin and put it on your deck after that. Revenge is a dish best served cold, they say.

Edit: I forgot, I also considered calling it "Retaliation Token" instead. What's better?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 12:11:12 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #897 on: August 19, 2017, 01:36:33 pm »
0

It occured to me that probably you could break it down to this:



If that doesn't work (for tracking purposes, I guess?), you could make it a "if the player to your right played an attack card last turn":



I kinda prefer the first because it doesn't care about seating order, but maybe that's a feature, not a bug? Either variant loses the ability to keep around the token for later, but I think it's just so much easier that I'd be willing to sacrifice that. What do you guys think?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #898 on: August 19, 2017, 01:52:21 pm »
+1

I think the last one works ok, though I am not sure the concept really works?

I like the "play this again" wording, you could change the +2$ to (for example) "draw up to six cards in hand", and then it doesn't matter you are doing the bonus twice. Although then assassin soft-counters itself.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #899 on: August 19, 2017, 02:16:12 pm »
+2

I think the last one works ok, though I am not sure the concept really works?

I like the "play this again" wording, you could change the +2$ to (for example) "draw up to six cards in hand", and then it doesn't matter you are doing the bonus twice. Although then assassin soft-counters itself.

Yes, that's still kind of the question. I felt that discard attacks wouldn't be as bad, as these are limited in how harsh they can get at worst. For the last version, if Assassin is the only attack card in the kingdom, the only player to really get hit by the additional topdecking is the player to your right, because the others are down to 4 already. For the version that checks all players, I think it still sort of hits the attacking players most. However, as soon as that other attack card is not a discard attack, I think this difference disappears. When you play attack cards on an Assassin board, you make life harder for everyone but the Assassin player, while for normal reactions, you make life easier for the reaction player instead. It's really not that much of a difference if you look at it like that, I think. The most important aspect I think is that your own attacks still hit. But yes, it certainly needs testing and analysis.

By the way, originally there were supposed to be more tokens and you would have to set aside the card similar to Horse Trader, but I decided against that for the very reason of it being a soft counter.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #900 on: August 19, 2017, 02:43:45 pm »
+2

It just occured to me that I can only use the "play this again" wording if Assassin uses the token.

By the way, I'm especially grateful for feedback that will help me decide which version to print. Of course I could also do TTS tests, but I don't have any play partners for that right now.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #901 on: September 02, 2017, 06:19:39 pm »
+3

I just read through all of these cards and I found it thoroughly enjoyable.                                                                                                                                                         Seriously, everyone should give some respect to asper.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #902 on: September 07, 2017, 03:59:59 pm »
+1

I recently started considering this under-the-line effect for a simple Season card to replace Mistress, but couldn't think of a nice upper half to go with it. My idea was that a pile that removes itself from the game completely at some point would be interesting for 3-piling, and so I figured such a card should be able to pick up cards and help control the 3-pile. LastFootnote also recently remarked that he felt Adventurer could cost 2$, and his reasoning convinced me it was true. My card still needed a buy for 3-piling and be cheap enough to pick up early, but I figured a cost of 3$ or 4$ for Buydventurer would be fine. I went with the more conservative option for now, as you can see... Given that the Adventurer effect benefits from a well-prepared deck, there's also a slight downside in that you need to get this by turn 10 latest, which technically means this card is not strictly better than Adventurer.



Edit: Lumbermen it is.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 05:23:12 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #903 on: September 07, 2017, 04:10:12 pm »
+1

I think you mean Fearnaught. Personally, I prefer the theme of Lumbermen.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #904 on: September 07, 2017, 04:27:43 pm »
0

I think you mean Fearnaught. Personally, I prefer the theme of Lumbermen.

My information was that both spellings exist, but of course I'm not a native speaker and my information might be wrong/outdated.
I absolutely agree Lumbermen is the more season-y theme. The problem was mostly finding art - this was the best I found.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #905 on: September 07, 2017, 04:44:56 pm »
+1

I think you mean Fearnaught. Personally, I prefer the theme of Lumbermen.

My information was that both spellings exist, but of course I'm not a native speaker and my information might be wrong/outdated.
I absolutely agree Lumbermen is the more season-y theme. The problem was mostly finding art - this was the best I found.
I love the art for Lumbermen though.

About the spelling, Fearnaught seems to be the spelling more commonly associated with a fearless person, though a completely different word might be best. Fearnaught is a bit archaic.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #906 on: September 07, 2017, 04:53:39 pm »
0

I think you mean Fearnaught. Personally, I prefer the theme of Lumbermen.

My information was that both spellings exist, but of course I'm not a native speaker and my information might be wrong/outdated.
I absolutely agree Lumbermen is the more season-y theme. The problem was mostly finding art - this was the best I found.
I love the art for Lumbermen though.

About the spelling, Fearnaught seems to be the spelling more commonly associated with a fearless person, though a completely different word might be best. Fearnaught is a bit archaic.

Lumbermen it is then. Or woodsmen. But certainly something like that.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #907 on: September 10, 2017, 04:56:47 pm »
+2

So, I was considering a card that just always goes back on your deck during Autumn and Winter, but I have a hard time deciding what it should be. Obviously a nonterminal, but what else? I considered:



Please don't pay too much attention to names and pictures for now.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 04:57:59 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #908 on: September 11, 2017, 09:55:24 am »
+1

Cool idea. Meat Market is quite similar to Treasury but the fact Treasury will more likely be topdecked early in the game could be a crucial difference.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #909 on: September 11, 2017, 10:18:00 am »
0

Cool idea. Meat Market is quite similar to Treasury but the fact Treasury will more likely be topdecked early in the game could be a crucial difference.

Yes, both ideas came up because of the fact that Trade Port, a card from the original Season set, behaved very similar to Treasury. I thought about how I could fix Trade Port, an in the end I felt: Well, why not just swap Treasury's timing around.
Other ideas I considered were an attack (but it still would have had to be a cantrip, which narrowed it down too much) or a Treasure worth e.g. 2$ (which seemed boring). I considered a variant of Meat Market that attacked and costed 8 debt instead, which I named Viking Ship. I wasn't looking all that fun.

Perhaps the Village is the best of these variants, and Seasons could stomach another Village. It's very slightly redundant to Champion in that you get free Actions late, but that's about it. My biggest worry is that good players may find it to be pointless because "I draw my deck either way". Then again, I would hope you can green much earlier with this before you feel it, but II'd have to playtest to be sure.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #910 on: September 11, 2017, 12:34:30 pm »
0

I reconsidered, and I think "Glacier Village" might be nicer, as - even though glaciers are a northern thing - it makes it feel less "regional".
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #911 on: September 11, 2017, 01:09:46 pm »
+2

I think Nordic Village is fine. We have things like Mandarin and Gladiator, after all.

I would maybe make it a Duration instead and make it say something like:

Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
Now and at the beginning of every Autumn or Winter turn, <bonus>

which would make it a bit sexier and distinguish it further from Treasury or what have you.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #912 on: September 11, 2017, 01:26:48 pm »
+1

I think Nordic Village is fine. We have things like Mandarin and Gladiator, after all.

I would maybe make it a Duration instead and make it say something like:

Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
Now and at the beginning of every Autumn or Winter turn, <bonus>

which would make it a bit sexier and distinguish it further from Treasury or what have you.
Hmm, but then it's very simmilar to Trade Port.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #913 on: September 11, 2017, 01:55:03 pm »
+1

I don't know Trade Post, which one is that?

If you want to make it even more different, then something like this works, and is also thematic (can't build villages while it's cold):

Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
If it's Spring or Summer, put this on your Tavern Mat

In games using this, at the beginning of each Fall or Winter turn, <bonus> per Nordic Village on your Tavern Mat.

Dunno if that's too far from the initial concept though.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #914 on: September 11, 2017, 02:14:19 pm »
+3

I would guess Nordic Village is a good bit stronger, due to the fact that villages are the types of cards you really need to draw reliably, unlike Peddlers. The difference between getting your Peddler out or not on a turn is more to spend that turn. The difference between having a village in a hand full of terminals and not having a village in a hand full of terminals is huge.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #915 on: September 11, 2017, 02:17:00 pm »
+2

Hmm, but then it's very simmilar to Trade Port.

That's because it's a replacement for Trade Port, which was too similar to Treasury for my tastes. I still liked the idea of a Season-Duration, I just didn't like that it was coin that lingers for the first half of the game.


I think Nordic Village is fine. We have things like Mandarin and Gladiator, after all.

I would maybe make it a Duration instead and make it say something like:

Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
Now and at the beginning of every Autumn or Winter turn, <bonus>

which would make it a bit sexier and distinguish it further from Treasury or what have you.

Considering that Duration cards are by now a staple of Dominion, it probably wouldn't hurt to do that. I mean, it's still one more type, but on the other hand you wouldn't forget what it does on discarding it. My only issue is that it's another type and color to add, where Seasons already has a type and color. Not that this kept Peltmonger from happening. As I mentioned, the card idea started when thinking about Trade Port, which was indeed a duration card. So  it's probably down to preference. A minor rules issue is that in games with both such a duration and Plantation, you wouldn't ever technically be able to discard the card during the turn you play it, because technically speaking, a player could repeatedly gain Plantations to make the game return to Winter, and therefore the card wouldn't know what Season the next turn is when it's time to discard it. We'd have similar issues as the old version of Outpost had, in that the card can't know whether it'll do something next turn. Making it depend on this turn solves this issue.

Alternatively, I could change the on-discard effect slightly, for example to shuffle the card in your deck instead. That way, it would be mechanically different enough from a duration and even allow me to spice the card up a bit more.

Either way, I'll consider a possible duration wording.

I don't know Trade Post, which one is that?

If you want to make it even more different, then something like this works, and is also thematic (can't build villages while it's cold):

Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
If it's Spring or Summer, put this on your Tavern Mat

In games using this, at the beginning of each Fall or Winter turn, <bonus> per Nordic Village on your Tavern Mat.

Dunno if that's too far from the initial concept though.

I tried a Reserve that counted copies of itself before with Barkeep, but didn't manage to find a way to make it fun. Maybe that's just me not knowing how to do it right, though. In any case, Seasons already has a Reserve, and I don't really feel adding a second one would be as interesting.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #916 on: September 11, 2017, 02:26:53 pm »
0

I would guess Nordic Village is a good bit stronger, due to the fact that villages are the types of cards you really need to draw reliably, unlike Peddlers. The difference between getting your Peddler out or not on a turn is more to spend that turn. The difference between having a village in a hand full of terminals and not having a village in a hand full of terminals is huge.

I think both are really strong (possibly too strong). Meat Market allows me to buy Victory card without caring all that much about my deck composition, and unlike Treasury never fails me. Either way, I do get why you think Nordic Village is stronger. I also feel it's the more interesting card though, so I might just try it without the buy if it turns out to strong, and then possibly take the "shuffle it in" route worst case. Although I believe a Village really wants to be reliable in this case, especially as it would be awful if you drew this one dead (after shuffling it in) and then never saw it again.

Or I could just always shuffle it back in if it gets discarded in Autumn and Winter, regardless of whether it was in play or not. Although then it would be pretty extreme with Rebuild-like cards. Not that there are that many of them which would skip it.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #917 on: September 11, 2017, 02:31:36 pm »
0

I don't know Trade Post, which one is that?

Trade Port said:

At the start of each of your turns in Spring, Summer and Autumn: +1$, +1 Buy
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #918 on: September 11, 2017, 02:41:04 pm »
+1

A minor rules issue is that in games with both such a duration and Plantation, you wouldn't ever technically be able to discard the card during the turn you play it, because technically speaking, a player could repeatedly gain Plantations to make the game return to Winter, and therefore the card wouldn't know what Season the next turn is when it's time to discard it. We'd have similar issues as the old version of Outpost had, in that the card can't know whether it'll do something next turn. Making it depend on this turn solves this issue.

I am confused by this statement. The way I phrased it, it would always stay in play, because nothing can stop Autumn or Winter from potentially happening again (short of the game ending). So since the card would still have an effect in the future, it stays in play.

Quote
I tried a Reserve that counted copies of itself before with Barkeep, but didn't manage to find a way to make it fun. Maybe that's just me not knowing how to do it right, though. In any case, Seasons already has a Reserve, and I don't really feel adding a second one would be as interesting.

The second wording is actually more of a Duration card than a Reserve, but trying to phrase it as a Duration makes it very clunky. Basically, the "Duration" part of the card only happens if you play it in Spring or Summer. It's otherwise (more or less) identical to the other phrasing. It's also weaker, which gives more leeway with the choice of bonus.


The "shuffle it in" version is cute though!
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #919 on: September 11, 2017, 03:12:33 pm »
+1

A minor rules issue is that in games with both such a duration and Plantation, you wouldn't ever technically be able to discard the card during the turn you play it, because technically speaking, a player could repeatedly gain Plantations to make the game return to Winter, and therefore the card wouldn't know what Season the next turn is when it's time to discard it. We'd have similar issues as the old version of Outpost had, in that the card can't know whether it'll do something next turn. Making it depend on this turn solves this issue.

I am confused by this statement. The way I phrased it, it would always stay in play, because nothing can stop Autumn or Winter from potentially happening again (short of the game ending). So since the card would still have an effect in the future, it stays in play.

Ah, okay, I misunderstood your intention there. Yes, this kind of effect is absolutely a contender, although I'd probably use Hireling's wording and check the Season as part of the "each turn" effect.

Quote
I tried a Reserve that counted copies of itself before with Barkeep, but didn't manage to find a way to make it fun. Maybe that's just me not knowing how to do it right, though. In any case, Seasons already has a Reserve, and I don't really feel adding a second one would be as interesting.

The second wording is actually more of a Duration card than a Reserve, but trying to phrase it as a Duration makes it very clunky. Basically, the "Duration" part of the card only happens if you play it in Spring or Summer. It's otherwise (more or less) identical to the other phrasing. It's also weaker, which gives more leeway with the choice of bonus.

The "shuffle it in" version is cute though!

Right, I misunderstood you again  :-[
That's actually a cute idea. The only downside is that we already have a few Season cards that push you to buy them earlier than you actually want them (Student, Sanitarium, Timberland and the recently added Woodsmen/Lumbermen).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #920 on: September 11, 2017, 03:25:25 pm »
+2

My main problem with both Nordic Village and Meat Market is that they aren't new. I know not everything has to be cool and unique, but Nordic Village seems like it doesn't really do anything Worker's Village and Walled Village don't try to do already. While using the Seasons mechanic is cool, it seems to be more of a gimmick to make a boring card slightly more interesting. I think changing the boni on Nordic Village could make it a lot more interesting:
Quote
+2 Actions
+2 Buys
-------------
When you discard this from play in Autumn or Winter, you may put it onto your deck.
I don't know of balance, but it seems more unique and offer's more strategic depth with optional topdecking and an extra +buy!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #921 on: September 11, 2017, 04:14:56 pm »
+1

I don't disagree with ThetaSigma12 here. If going with a Duration or Reserve wording, it can be made more "different" by giving a different bonus on the turn it's played.

For example (crazy example to illustrate the idea):

Code: [Select]
+4 Actions
At the start of each of your turns until the end of the game, if it's Fall or Winter, +1$ +1 buy

I am now aware that the second half is basically identical to Trading Post though.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 04:16:06 pm by pacovf »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #922 on: September 11, 2017, 05:51:08 pm »
+1

My main problem with both Nordic Village and Meat Market is that they aren't new. I know not everything has to be cool and unique, but Nordic Village seems like it doesn't really do anything Worker's Village and Walled Village don't try to do already. While using the Seasons mechanic is cool, it seems to be more of a gimmick to make a boring card slightly more interesting. I think changing the boni on Nordic Village could make it a lot more interesting:
Quote
+2 Actions
+2 Buys
-------------
When you discard this from play in Autumn or Winter, you may put it onto your deck.
I don't know of balance, but it seems more unique and offer's more strategic depth with optional topdecking and an extra +buy!

While I like the idea of making the card more unique, I'm not convinced you would ever want a Necropolis+ so badly you'd topdeck it. Firstly, if you use more than one of these, changes are you won't draw enough terminals to actually use them. Generally, I'm pretty convinced that this either needs to stay out Hireling-style or be a cantrip. About effects, I would like to have it cost 5$, as Seasons has a fair share of cheap cards already. That means it can't be too situational. Also, for a 5$ it obviously doesn't make much sense to let it do something special during Spring or Summer. Another option would be a debt cost, and I in fact considered a card using debt for a while.

I don't disagree with ThetaSigma12 here. If going with a Duration or Reserve wording, it can be made more "different" by giving a different bonus on the turn it's played.

For example (crazy example to illustrate the idea):

Code: [Select]
+4 Actions
At the start of each of your turns until the end of the game, if it's Fall or Winter, +1$ +1 buy

I am now aware that the second half is basically identical to Trading Post though.

This is a cool concept, especially if you make both effects complementary - but I think that doesn't really need to be a Season card. Something like "Trash your hand. At the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game, gain a card costing up to 4$" might be fine on its own.

---

I'll be back and write a bit more soon. Also, I thought I mentioned it before, I also considered a Treasury-style attack. Imagine Vikings returning every turn in Winter ;)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 05:52:29 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #923 on: September 11, 2017, 06:35:43 pm »
+1

By the way, here's the attack variant. The problem is that, you can't do an attack that's a duration for tracking issues, so it has to be nonterminal. You don't want them to harm your turn just for attacking, as that drags out the game, so they have to be cantrips. They can't attack handsize because that harms cantrips, can't attack the deck because that harms the topdecking ability, and can't deal out junk because that would become horrible with cantrips. So, what remains are Bureaucrat (already on Raiders, but worst case you have to reconsider Raiders), or dealing out tokens. So, tokens it is. I originally had this always go on deck, but then it seemed too good for 5$. So I costed it at <8>, but that seemed weird if it had the -1$ token from another expansion, so instead it gave out <1> if the other players didn't have <> yet. Then I figured I could do the shuffling and reduce the cost to 5$ to avoid the all-too-obvious self-synergy (receive no <> if you already bought this), and then of course I could do the Adventures token again. It has a bit too much going on for my liking though, but just so you see some of the other ideas I pondered.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 08:40:23 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #924 on: September 11, 2017, 09:14:06 pm »
+1

I think it's cute! Power level is probably ok too. Note that, after drawing your whole deck, during Clean up you will just form a deck with all your Viking Ships. The "shuffle" thing could possibly be attached to a more interesting card, but not all cards can be the most interesting ever.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #925 on: September 11, 2017, 09:25:09 pm »
0

I think it's cute! Power level is probably ok too. Note that, after drawing your whole deck, during Clean up you will just form a deck with all your Viking Ships. The "shuffle" thing could possibly be attached to a more interesting card, but not all cards can be the most interesting ever.

What I like about it is that, if your deck is sufficiently large, you have this situation where people go: "Where are all these Vikings coming from? Why are they getting more? Stop raiding me already!".

Speaking of Raid (and Ghost Ship), should it perhaps be the -1 Card token instead? Or would that be too strong?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #926 on: September 11, 2017, 10:32:05 pm »
+1

That feels too strong to me, but can't really say without playing it.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #927 on: September 11, 2017, 11:16:56 pm »
+1

I feel like a simple Peddler that makes other players take their - might be too strong for , even without the season ability of playing one multiple times per shuffle.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #928 on: September 11, 2017, 11:42:34 pm »
+2

I think that, without the attack, it's quite a bit worse than Treasury.

Treasury is nice because it helps you build up your deck, and by the time it stops doing its thing you should have your deck rolling already. Without the attack, Viking Ship would be a straight Peddler for 5$ at first, which is kind of a terrible buy. And the shuffling in is still not as good as topdecking! And taking into account that nobody ever claimed that Treasury was a power 5$, I think a relatively mild attack such as the -1$ token is fairly reasonable.

But I guess the only way to know would be to playtest!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #929 on: September 12, 2017, 01:30:16 am »
+1

My concern would be that, if we considered Meat Market in comparison to Treasury, you'd basically be able to buy Province every turn as soon as you played 4 to 5 individual copies of them (as they align themselves, and getting +4$ a turn before considering your hand means that your average hand just has to be worth 4$). Unlike Treasury, this never stops. It's why I was skeptical of GendoIkari's assertion that Nordic Village would be stronger than Meat Market. At the very least, you need other cards to make that work. For Meat Market, buy 4 and then buy Provinces whenever you can, or more Meat Markets/Gold when you can't.

It's also why I said before that I felt Nordic Village was the more interesting card to me.

I feel like a simple Peddler that makes other players take their - might be too strong for , even without the season ability of playing one multiple times per shuffle.

There's something to this. Even without the Token, Viking Ship is a Peddler+, which is at least worth 4$. Relic gives out a token and is a Silver+, so judging from that comparison alone it might in fact be too strong. My experience with Empires is a bit lacking, though, so I don't know how good Relic is usually considered to be - and of course it uses the card token. I mean, Bridge Troll isn't a straight Bridge+ either.

---

I think I'll first playtest Nordic Village (because even though Walled Village TRIES to do something similar, it usually fails miserably) and Meat Market, and then possibly consider Viking Ship or (if Meat Market seems too good) instead try a shuffle-Meat Market (and a new name, probably). Fish Market, maybe? I considered "Whalers" for a while, but man, it's absolutely impossible to find pictures for that... Ah well.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #930 on: September 12, 2017, 01:26:37 pm »
+2

Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
Now and at the beginning of every Autumn or Winter turn, <bonus>

It just occured to me that this is different to Nordic Village in more than one way. Sure, the type and all, but it also means that the card is useless in Summer after you played it once. The version I gave at the start can be played in Summer for a Village effect and will just stay a reliable Village even in Winter. However, one could argue that this means the card will behave less different between Seasons than might theoretically be interesting. So perhaps the better way would be to just have it be

"+1 Card
+1 Action
Now and at the start of each of your turns: If it is Autumn or Winter, +1 Action"

I might do the "Shuffle in" mechanic on another card in the future. The downside for Seasons is that it makes the difference smaller than would be nice.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #931 on: September 12, 2017, 09:05:46 pm »
+2

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #932 on: September 12, 2017, 09:21:28 pm »
0

I like the third, but like most it looks not that "medieval". That last picture, though... *shudder*



Here's a more abstract look. I kind of like the (un)color scheme here.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, how medieval is whaling, anyhow?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 02:22:20 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #933 on: September 13, 2017, 03:03:53 am »
0

Half dead from sleep deprivation, but how's this for an Edict:

"When you trash a card during your turn, take your -1 Card Token."

or something along those lines.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #934 on: September 13, 2017, 11:04:44 pm »
+1

I'd like to have an Edict that makes trashing worse. Not by so much you can't use it, but by so much that trashing becomes less great than usual, in the same way that Exile harms cursers and Tyranny harms Big Money. I didn't go with the -1$ token as that doesn't matter if you trash fast (play Stewart, trash 2, play remaining Copper), and also because Tyranny already uses that one. Is it too much?



Also, I'm considering making Blessing an Edict after all. The timing at the start of the turn makes it easier to remember at the right time and can't be done using an Event.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #935 on: September 13, 2017, 11:09:18 pm »
+2

Do you put the -1 Card token there immediately and can it trigger more than once a turn? If yes, then this is pretty bad with let's say Rats or Upgrade as they remove the token and trigger again and over and over. Then I would suggest to either limit to once a turn or just let you put the -1 Card Token at the End of your Buy or the Start of your Cleanup Phase.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #936 on: September 13, 2017, 11:22:54 pm »
0

Do you put the -1 Card token there immediately and can it trigger more than once a turn? If yes, then this is pretty bad with let's say Rats or Upgrade as they remove the token and trigger again and over and over. Then I would suggest to either limit to once a turn or just let you put the -1 Card Token at the End of your Buy or the Start of your Cleanup Phase.

Yes, I thought about that, too. On the other hand, the only cantrip trashers I could think of were Rats, Junk Dealer and Upgrade, so it's not that many. But I admit that for those, putting the token there every time would be annoying...

Also, I was wondering whether a straight +1 Action per every turn would be fun or unfun. I know it reeeeeaaaaaally throws a lot of stuff out of the window, especially if it's for free (like here), but on the other hand that's kind of what makes it appealing.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #937 on: September 13, 2017, 11:51:17 pm »
+1

There are more. Spice Merchant, Sentry and Appentice notably, also Mercenary and Sacrifice, to lesser extent Amulet where you likely trash at the start of a turn and then with your other Amulet again as you will likely want to draw in between.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #938 on: September 14, 2017, 01:47:12 am »
+1

There are more. Spice Merchant, Sentry and Appentice notably, also Mercenary and Sacrifice, to lesser extent Amulet where you likely trash at the start of a turn and then with your other Amulet again as you will likely want to draw in between.

Right, Apprentice came to my mind, too... Hm. I'll think something up. You're right that putting the token there several times per turn is undesirable. Maybe it should just be "When you draw a new hand at the end of your turn, draw one card less if you trashed any cards during that turn." or something like that. It's not as pretty when looking at the words, and requires some tracking, but I guess it's okay. Usually the trash can serve as a testimony.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #939 on: September 14, 2017, 08:11:36 pm »
+2

(I'm busy updating my versions of your cards, but since these are artist credits you might want to change them on your cards too.)

You seem to have retained the original artist credit for Sanctuary. The artist of the current art is Chen Wei. EDIT: Also, the artist for Stone Circle is Ranarh, not Ranarth.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 08:33:59 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #940 on: September 14, 2017, 08:51:52 pm »
+1

(I'm busy updating my versions of your cards, but since these are artist credits you might want to change them on your cards too.)

You seem to have retained the original artist credit for Sanctuary. The artist of the current art is Chen Wei. EDIT: Also, the artist for Stone Circle is Ranarh, not Ranarth.

Wahoo, thanks. I will update this as soon as I can.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #941 on: September 15, 2017, 12:33:30 pm »
+1

Fixed the missing art. Also I decided to go with Nordic Village for now, until it's tested. The "reliable Action" is more interesting in my book than the "reliable coin", and also Walled Village is awfully weak and doesn't even really do what Nordic Village does either way. And then they cost different amounts of money. But of course it might still be too strong. I don't know what I'll do in that case, to be honest.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #942 on: September 21, 2017, 07:51:31 pm »
+2

A lot of very cool cards. I just read the "normal" ones for now, and have two technical comments:

Sanctuary: "Discard a card to draw a card." Is this supposed to be optional or not?
If optional, I think it should be: "You may discard a card, to draw a card".
If mandatory, I think it should be: "Discard a card. If you did, draw a card." Actually in almost all circumstances this would be the same: "Discard a card and draw a card."

Contest:
"Make a Contest pile out of 10 kingdom cards." It doesn't say "different". Is it up to the players whether there should be some duplicates in the pile?

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #943 on: September 22, 2017, 02:18:05 am »
0

A lot of very cool cards. I just read the "normal" ones for now, and have two technical comments:

Sanctuary: "Discard a card to draw a card." Is this supposed to be optional or not?
If optional, I think it should be: "You may discard a card, to draw a card".
If mandatory, I think it should be: "Discard a card. If you did, draw a card." Actually in almost all circumstances this would be the same: "Discard a card and draw a card."

Contest:
"Make a Contest pile out of 10 kingdom cards." It doesn't say "different". Is it up to the players whether there should be some duplicates in the pile?

Sanctuary is supposed to be mandatory. It came in fact up during playtesting that if you have a lot of Sanctuaries, you may play one with an empty hand and draw a card with no downside. This is especially significant if you combine it with non-drawing terminals.

The Contest pile is supposed to be different cards, yes. I will fix this.

Thank you for looking at the cards so closely  :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #944 on: September 25, 2017, 05:39:59 am »
+2

I fixed Contest



altered Extortioner (now Scribe)



and added Pilgrim back to the OP. It is still quite similar to LastFootnote's Wanderer, but I think the fact that it's nonterminal and gives a bigger bonus on gain makes it more of a card you buy for reasons other than "It's fun".



I also updated Nightwatch, which had an older version in the OP.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #945 on: September 25, 2017, 10:25:26 am »
+1

I still think Sanctuary is ambigous. See Trading Post for how official cards do it.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #946 on: September 25, 2017, 10:38:09 am »
+2

I think pilgrim is interesting!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #947 on: September 25, 2017, 12:52:18 pm »
0

I still think Sanctuary is ambigous. See Trading Post for how official cards do it.

Probably you're right. It actually used to follow Trading Post's wording before the "to" wording was universally introduced after Adventures.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #948 on: September 25, 2017, 01:05:27 pm »
0

I think pilgrim is interesting!

Thanks, I'm very happy with it. If you missed it, the card started as "Message in a Bottle" a while ago, a card you put into another player's discard pile on gain and which benefitted its buyer on play. Then it started moving from player to player, and gradually became more similar to LLastFootnote's Wanderer, until I felt it didn't belong in the OP. However, I am very pleased with how Pilgrim implements a similar idea, so I figured putting it in the OP was fair as long as I didn't hide the information on Wanderer.

It's actually playtested and was well received.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #949 on: September 25, 2017, 01:17:08 pm »
+3

I still think Sanctuary is ambigous. See Trading Post for how official cards do it.

Probably you're right. It actually used to follow Trading Post's wording before the "to" wording was universally introduced after Adventures.

The thing is that the "to" wording was only introduced with "you may". New Trading Post doesn't have it, and there are a few others.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #950 on: September 25, 2017, 02:21:49 pm »
0

I still think Sanctuary is ambigous. See Trading Post for how official cards do it.

Probably you're right. It actually used to follow Trading Post's wording before the "to" wording was universally introduced after Adventures.

The thing is that the "to" wording was only introduced with "you may". New Trading Post doesn't have it, and there are a few others.

Yes, I knew this. I still decided it was fine because I felt it had all the info it needed. Actually, I still think so, and I am pretty sure other games use such a wording without trouble, just as other games used the "to" wording long before Dominion did. I'll still change it for consistency.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #951 on: September 25, 2017, 04:38:03 pm »
+1

Yes, I knew this. I still decided it was fine because I felt it had all the info it needed. Actually, I still think so, and I am pretty sure other games use such a wording without trouble, just as other games used the "to" wording long before Dominion did. I'll still change it for consistency.

"Discard a card to draw a card", devoid of context, reads like it's optional. I mean, that's how it reads in English. The only reason to doubt that is the lack of "may", which is a keyword you often look for in games. So in the end it's just very confusing.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #952 on: September 26, 2017, 06:20:25 am »
0

Yes, I knew this. I still decided it was fine because I felt it had all the info it needed. Actually, I still think so, and I am pretty sure other games use such a wording without trouble, just as other games used the "to" wording long before Dominion did. I'll still change it for consistency.

"Discard a card to draw a card", devoid of context, reads like it's optional. I mean, that's how it reads in English. The only reason to doubt that is the lack of "may", which is a keyword you often look for in games. So in the end it's just very confusing.

I'll take your word for it, even though I'm pretty sure I have seen it on a game before. It's a new "wording" either way, and as normally I don't invent new wordings where old ones exist, I shouldn't do that here, either.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #953 on: September 26, 2017, 11:04:33 am »
+1

In my opinion, the condition trigger is rare enough to not care about it. "Discard a card, then draw a card." Or, "Discard a card, then +1 Card."
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #954 on: September 26, 2017, 12:14:12 pm »
0

In my opinion, the condition trigger is rare enough to not care about it. "Discard a card, then draw a card." Or, "Discard a card, then +1 Card."

Jeebus said the same thing, and I can still only say that it came up in playtesting. The version back then didn't give two Actions, but I think this will make it matter more, not less.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #955 on: September 26, 2017, 01:24:32 pm »
+1

I am curious, did it come up, and then the card drawn was an action? Because otherwise it's just +1 Card +2$, which doesn't seem too crazy for 5$ either.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #956 on: September 26, 2017, 01:50:15 pm »
+2

In my opinion, the condition trigger is rare enough to not care about it. "Discard a card, then draw a card." Or, "Discard a card, then +1 Card."

Jeebus said the same thing, and I can still only say that it came up in playtesting. The version back then didn't give two Actions, but I think this will make it matter more, not less.

But was it bad? I mean, seems to me that if you manage to play it as the last card in your hand, maybe you deserve to draw a card.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #957 on: September 26, 2017, 06:53:40 pm »
0

In my opinion, the condition trigger is rare enough to not care about it. "Discard a card, then draw a card." Or, "Discard a card, then +1 Card."

Jeebus said the same thing, and I can still only say that it came up in playtesting. The version back then didn't give two Actions, but I think this will make it matter more, not less.

But was it bad? I mean, seems to me that if you manage to play it as the last card in your hand, maybe you deserve to draw a card.

Hum, I guess that's a point. Maybe I'm just running into the "But I really want it to work this way" trap...

I am curious, did it come up, and then the card drawn was an action? Because otherwise it's just +1 Card +2$, which doesn't seem too crazy for 5$ either.

In those specific cases, it was another copy of the card relatively often (back then it was called Aqueduct and had neither the second action nor the "peaceful" effect). In those instances it behaved like a buy-less Grand Market. I mean, it's always a Grand Market that trades a buy for an Action if you don't discard a useful card. A "Grand Bazaar", so to say. That's pretty mean for 5$, I think. Of course the no-attack effect hurts it, so I guess it can be a bit overboarding to make up for that...

------------------

Would you guys say making the sifting optional would be weaker or stronger than just giving the +1 Card unconditionally?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #958 on: September 26, 2017, 08:01:24 pm »
+2

If the sifting is optional, I'd make it bigger to be worth all those words. Like, you may discard 2 cards for +2 Cards. And then weaken it some other way.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #959 on: September 27, 2017, 07:42:49 am »
+1

I'm going to play a little fan card Dominion this Friday. I'll make sure this is in to try whether the "last card" case comes up often and if it does, whether it's too much.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #960 on: September 30, 2017, 08:10:34 am »
+1

Man, I totally forgot to pull out Sanctuary on Friday... Instead, we played a game with Heir, Werewolf, Sawmill, Cliffside Village and Scientist. The game also had Trading Post, which was the perfect Werewolf counter and helped bump up Royal Blacksmith, which was also there. I'm still undecided on Werewolf's strength, but the game was a lot of fun even though we all played rather badly.

Second game had Snow Witch, Sanitarium, Ballroom, Pilgrim, Farmer, Stone Circle and Sorcerer. Funny thing to notice: Ball Room allows giving more than one Curse per Snow Witch out, and Sanitarium certainly doesn't like the Curse going into hand now.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #961 on: October 01, 2017, 10:46:05 am »
+2

After some consideration, I decided that Assassin, even though it might be an improvement over "Reflection Reactions", is still not good. I think it will feel random who gets hit by it in multiplayer games. Like Jeweler and Sovereign were, it is a proof of concept that doesn't translate to a fun card. So it's out now. I still like the name and art, but then who knows what card names Nocturne will feature. I'm pretty sure it's going to break my Werewolf's neck. Better hope Donald X does something good with the name...
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Fragasnap

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #962 on: October 03, 2017, 07:14:27 pm »
+2

Half dead from sleep deprivation, but how's this for an Edict:

"When you trash a card during your turn, take your -1 Card Token."

or something along those lines.
Since most tempo-trashers are fairly weak cards, the 9 other cards in any given Kingdom already significantly influence the efficacy of tempo-trashing, an Edict turning tempo-trashing garbage is quite uninteresting.

Point being: I would probably not buy any tempo-trasher (except Remodel with a good $4 target or Upgrade with an amazing $3 target) if Tithe was on the board, while I would still buy any fast-trasher regardless of its presence. You can think of things like Spice Merchant or Junk Dealer which can trigger the -1 Card token multiple times in a turn, but I don't particularly care about the triggering immediately so much as the overall number of triggers. Every card that trashes only one card at a time will trigger the -1 Card token upwards of six times throughout the game while fast-trashers do it, at worst, half as much.
All I see this doing is beating on already weaker trashers like Forager, Lookout, and Trade Route while doing little to offset the power of cards like Remake and Steward.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #963 on: October 04, 2017, 01:04:46 am »
+1

Half dead from sleep deprivation, but how's this for an Edict:

"When you trash a card during your turn, take your -1 Card Token."

or something along those lines.
Since most tempo-trashers are fairly weak cards, the 9 other cards in any given Kingdom already significantly influence the efficacy of tempo-trashing, an Edict turning tempo-trashing garbage is quite uninteresting.

Point being: I would probably not buy any tempo-trasher (except Remodel with a good $4 target or Upgrade with an amazing $3 target) if Tithe was on the board, while I would still buy any fast-trasher regardless of its presence. You can think of things like Spice Merchant or Junk Dealer which can trigger the -1 Card token multiple times in a turn, but I don't particularly care about the triggering immediately so much as the overall number of triggers. Every card that trashes only one card at a time will trigger the -1 Card token upwards of six times throughout the game while fast-trashers do it, at worst, half as much.
All I see this doing is beating on already weaker trashers like Forager, Lookout, and Trade Route while doing little to offset the power of cards like Remake and Steward.

That's a very good point and I feel kind of dumb for not thinking of it myself. I guess in its purest form, this Edict would have been "There is no (useful) trashing this game", but you already have that every time there's no trasher on the board. There's really no need to keep this one around. Thank you.
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navical

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #964 on: October 26, 2017, 09:42:27 am »
+2

I reckon you should just rename "Werewolf" to "Lycanthrope".
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #965 on: October 26, 2017, 11:20:47 am »
0

I reckon you should just rename "Werewolf" to "Lycanthrope".

Heh. Yeah, I guess I could do that. I'll have to kill several of my cards either way, though. Basically all of the Spellcasters, Summoner specifically, perhaps Edicts, and possibly Necromancer. I'll just wait until the storm is over and see what's still standing.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #966 on: October 26, 2017, 12:18:17 pm »
+1

As Nocturne (edit: probably) has no Events:

Nobility, 5$, Event
You may discard a Province, to take Baron's Grace, Duke's Grace, Heir's Grace, Duchess' Grace or Margrave's Grace if you don't have any yet, but not from another player.

Baron's Grace, State
At the start of your buy phase, you may discard a Victory card to get +3$.

Duke's Grace, State
+1 VP per Duchy you have.

Heir's Grace, State
At the start of your turn, you may reveal a Victory card from your hand, to get +2 Actions.

Duchess' Grace, State
At the start of your turn, you may discard a card for +1 Card.

Margrave's Grace, State
When you buy a Victory card, each other player discards down to 3 cards.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 12:21:37 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #967 on: October 26, 2017, 12:19:38 pm »
+1

As Nocturne has no Events:

Wait, was this confirmed?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #968 on: October 26, 2017, 12:20:48 pm »
0

As Nocturne has no Events:

Wait, was this confirmed?

No...? I just believe the box text would say it if it had them.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #969 on: October 26, 2017, 06:22:26 pm »
+1

It's highly unlikely. There seems little room left.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #970 on: October 26, 2017, 09:22:34 pm »
0

Just realized that the official Werewolf is a bit like my outtake Jeweler. Instead of being a Smithy/Silver, it's a Smithy/attack. That avoids an issue Jeweler had, namely being monolithic. You can't win a game just by attacking people.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #971 on: October 27, 2017, 12:34:50 am »
+1

I reckon you should just rename "Werewolf" to "Lycanthrope".

Heh. Yeah, I guess I could do that. I'll have to kill several of my cards either way, though. Basically all of the Spellcasters, Summoner specifically, perhaps Edicts, and possibly Necromancer. I'll just wait until the storm is over and see what's still standing.

I don't see any reason why there can't be both an official Werewolf and an Asper's Werewolf.

GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #972 on: October 27, 2017, 12:54:51 pm »
+5

So, Asper's Necromancer/Zombie vs Donald's Necromancer/Zombie:

Similarities:

-Zombies start in the trash.
-Necromancers allow you to use Zombines.
-Necromancers allow you to use other action cards in the trash also.

Differences:
-There's 1 each of 3 different zombies, instead of 10 of the same.
-Zombies aren't attacks.
-Necromancer doesn't do Treasures.
-Necromancer doesn't gain cards from the trash, it just plays them.
-Necromancer costs , not . Which sounds about right, as Asper's seems stronger for the most part. Though leaving the cards in the trash is sometimes better for you.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 09:39:50 pm by GendoIkari »
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #973 on: October 27, 2017, 01:00:43 pm »
+1

I think the most important difference is that official!Necromancer doesn't gain the cards from the trash. Which does allow for three different effects in the trash, rather than only one, with 3 cards instead of 10, which I think is cool.

You could rename yours Lych, or something of the sort. Both cards sound like they would play quite differently, though I admit that once you have the "setup: add cards to the trash" already exist, having two of them might seem a bit redundant.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #974 on: October 27, 2017, 01:08:14 pm »
+2

I think the most important difference is that official!Necromancer doesn't gain the cards from the trash. Which does allow for three different effects in the trash, rather than only one, with 3 cards instead of 10, which I think is cool.

You could rename yours Lych, or something of the sort. Both cards sound like they would play quite differently, though I admit that once you have the "setup: add cards to the trash" already exist, having two of them might seem a bit redundant.

But it would makes games with both cards extra interesting! Similar to how games with Lurker and Necromancer becomes more interesting.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #975 on: October 27, 2017, 05:34:59 pm »
+2

Another similarity is that Zombies trash cards. They have to. Otherwise, in games without other trashers, Necromancer could just as well gain its cards from a non-supply Zombie pile or in Donald's case, receive one of three "Zom-boons", if you get what I mean. Also, you listed the difference "Zombies aren't attacks" twice.  ;)

The good thing about the card was having cards start in the trash. Well, that and the name Zombie, which really wants to be on a card starting in the trash. Most of the rest follows from it, and there are only a few options that could have been done there. I like the way my Zombies do that (by attacking) better, to be honest, because Zombies are ghastly monsters that murder people. They aren't guys working on construction sites. Also, my Necromancer gains because it makes cards actually return from the grave - not do stuff while staying there. What I don't like about my version is that Zombies can trash Necromancers. I would usually try to remedy this because it's something I really hate about e.g. Warrior, and perhaps having both cards say "that isn't a Necromancer" would be fine. On the other hand, at least I have no "can it be moved" rules questions and don't need to specifically exclude Durations.

One problem with keeping my version of Necromancer on these forums would be that people would see it the first time and think "Man, this guy just slightly altered an official card and wants to sell it to us as his own fan card." They don't know that Necromancer predates Nocturne.

But yeah, if I was to rename it, I could do something like Lich and give it an army of Skelletons. Until that name's taken, of course. I think I lost three names and three concepts up to now, and we're not even completely through. It makes me proud to have done a card that resembles an official one as much, but at the same time I kinda wished this had been more like Werewolf, where it was name only.

Huh, maybe I should add a "retired" section to the OP and just put cards that had to leave for similar reasons there ;D

I'm probably writing a bit of garbage here, please cut me a little slack. I've been awake for about 33 hours.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #976 on: October 27, 2017, 05:40:33 pm »
+2

Go sleep!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #977 on: October 27, 2017, 08:26:22 pm »
+1

But yeah, if I was to rename it, I could do something like Lich and give it an army of Skelletons. Until that name's taken, of course. I think I lost three names and three concepts up to now, and we're not even completely through. It makes me proud to have done a card that resembles an official one as much, but at the same time I kinda wished this had been more like Werewolf, where it was name only.

Huh, maybe I should add a "retired" section to the OP and just put cards that had to leave for similar reasons there ;D
I don't see any reason why there can't be both an official Necromancer and an Asper's Necromancer...

I played a game with your Necromancer just a couple days ago. I like it better than the official one (though I haven't played with the official one yet).

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #978 on: October 28, 2017, 02:58:46 am »
+2

Go sleep!

No worries, I was just staying up a few more extra minutes to post. I'm fresh and de-zombified myself, now  :)
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navical

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #979 on: October 28, 2017, 04:30:14 am »
+1

But yeah, if I was to rename it, I could do something like Lich and give it an army of Skelletons. Until that name's taken, of course. I think I lost three names and three concepts up to now, and we're not even completely through. It makes me proud to have done a card that resembles an official one as much, but at the same time I kinda wished this had been more like Werewolf, where it was name only.
I can see the names (Necromancer, Werewolf, Nightwatch?), but the only concept I can see is Necromancer/Zombie?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #980 on: October 28, 2017, 05:14:55 am »
0

But yeah, if I was to rename it, I could do something like Lich and give it an army of Skelletons. Until that name's taken, of course. I think I lost three names and three concepts up to now, and we're not even completely through. It makes me proud to have done a card that resembles an official one as much, but at the same time I kinda wished this had been more like Werewolf, where it was name only.
I can see the names (Necromancer, Werewolf, Nightwatch?), but the only concept I can see is Necromancer/Zombie?

Edicts are too similar to states. Spells are too similar to Boons. Summoner specifically is too similar to Druid. The only difference is that Spells have varying stength, and so Summoner must account for that in a way by discarding cards. Well, and you can buy Spells, but that's not specific to Summoner. I'm not saying those are even roughly as similar as Necromancer/Zombie, but they are similar enough to strip them of part their originality.

I guess states didn't end up as global as I feared, so I might keep Edicts. But in the end, all Edicts are either setup clauses (which could be on cards) or abilities/restrictions, which could be on states (also possibly brought into play by cards, or Events, alternatively).

I guess my Spells aren't random and more Event-like, so perhaps they're fine. They were never as popular to begin with, although I think that if any fan had suggested a card like Fool that has 1000+ components and immense randomness, noone would have liked that, either. Donald has the bonus that, because the cards are official, you basically got to give them a chance. Sometimes that means you get a pleasant surprise (which I think will apply to some cards in Nocturne - not necessarily Fool, which I have grown to dislike a lot even though he has a Heirloom I enjoy). I think this factor applies to Spellcasters, too. If you gave them a chance, they turn out to be fine. However, why give them a chance if you don't need to? I like that they are not random, and honestly I prefer them to Boons, but they are still similar in that a card gives you one of several possible effects. But hey, maybe people will try them out now. Either way, Summoner.

The third name is Raider (from Seasons), although Night Watchman probably has to change, too. However, that never was all that great in the first place.
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navical

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #981 on: October 28, 2017, 06:43:03 am »
+2

I really like Spellcasters, although as you've found as well the issue is playtesting them... I have done a bit, testing against BM, but none with other players. They're much more like Events than Boons - I think you're underestimating how much of a difference "you have to pay for them" is. The interesting thing is that they're one-shots, not that they're different each time.

I can see the point that if Summoner is the only Spellcaster in the kingdom then it's like Druid in the sense that it's "pick one of these three bonuses, which are different each game". But with other Spellcasters around, the fact that you can delay the bonus becomes a much bigger thing: discard 2 Estates at the end of your turn to get +2 Cards when you play your first Trickster next turn, for example - or, provided there's enough terminal space, there's the combination with Magician. Even with Summoner on its own Harm is the only Spell you always want to play immediately rather than saving.

The only State that is remotely similar to an Edict is Lost in the Woods, and the interesting thing there is more the hot-potato aspect for Fool, rather than the actual effect of Lost in the Woods. Yes, some of them could go on other cards (and I really like fragasnap's Greed for that), but not all of them, and there they kind of need to tie into the card, rather than being just "occasionally the rules of the game are different" in the way they currently are. Messing around with ways to give them out rather than just being permanent (for this game) rules changes takes away a lot of the elegant simplicity of the current design.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #982 on: October 28, 2017, 09:33:02 am »
+2

I also don’t see spells as being particularly similar to boons, boons are random and free.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #983 on: October 30, 2017, 12:59:24 am »
+6

I don't think States and Edicts are really very similar at all. I don't know enough about Spells to form an opinion, but they don't seem that much like Boons at first glance.

Sorry you don't like Fool. You can blame me for it existing, since Donald would likely have killed it half a dozen different times had I not fought to save it. Admittedly it was better when you knew what you were getting before you played Fool. For a while Boons were choice-of-3, you see. You'd deal three Boons out and when a card said "receive a Boon", you'd pick one of the three and then replace it with a fresh one from the deck. And for Fool you'd just take all three. So you still couldn't control what you'd get, but you knew if/when to play it.

I still enjoy Fool a lot as-is, though. It's exciting to see what it's going to be out of the 220 possibilities, and I enjoy the tactics of ordering and resolving the Boons. It's what Tribute always should have been, that's my feeling.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #984 on: October 30, 2017, 08:31:15 am »
+2

I don't think States and Edicts are really very similar at all. I don't know enough about Spells to form an opinion, but they don't seem that much like Boons at first glance.

Sorry you don't like Fool. You can blame me for it existing, since Donald would likely have killed it half a dozen different times had I not fought to save it. Admittedly it was better when you knew what you were getting before you played Fool. For a while Boons were choice-of-3, you see. You'd deal three Boons out and when a card said "receive a Boon", you'd pick one of the three and then replace it with a fresh one from the deck. And for Fool you'd just take all three. So you still couldn't control what you'd get, but you knew if/when to play it.

I still enjoy Fool a lot as-is, though. It's exciting to see what it's going to be out of the 220 possibilities, and I enjoy the tactics of ordering and resolving the Boons. It's what Tribute always should have been, that's my feeling.

I'm not even sure I would have liked that as much better. It'd still have many components and be very luck driven. I think the luck is obvious with the Boons, but the hot potato thing is just as much. Given you have so many Silvers, you will often have little influence on when you draw Fool, meaning you might have the state for 10 turns, or none. Either way, it's still Donald's game, and not mine. If he decides to do things the way he does, for whatever reason, then that's the way it is. But thank you for the info. And I'm sorry that when I complain it somehow manages to often hit things you were involved with. On the bright side, I have come to enjoy almost everything in Empires by now, except Farmer's Market and Wild Hunt, which have the same shuffle-timing issue I dislike about Fool. But Crown for example, which I think you were also involved with, is just fine for me, now. So I guess some things just need a little time, which is probably true to some degree about Boons and Hexes, too.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #985 on: October 30, 2017, 09:12:42 am »
0

Another thing Nocturne does which I tried to do before is a Smithy that you can play as something else when you draw it dead. My take was Jeweler, which was a strategy in itself because the other option it did was Silver. Nocturne's Werewolf has an attack instead. It's still as monolithic, but at least you don't win by just attacking. It's more annoying though.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #986 on: October 30, 2017, 03:10:07 pm »
+1

I don't think States and Edicts are really very similar at all. I don't know enough about Spells to form an opinion, but they don't seem that much like Boons at first glance.

Sorry you don't like Fool. You can blame me for it existing, since Donald would likely have killed it half a dozen different times had I not fought to save it. Admittedly it was better when you knew what you were getting before you played Fool. For a while Boons were choice-of-3, you see. You'd deal three Boons out and when a card said "receive a Boon", you'd pick one of the three and then replace it with a fresh one from the deck. And for Fool you'd just take all three. So you still couldn't control what you'd get, but you knew if/when to play it.

I still enjoy Fool a lot as-is, though. It's exciting to see what it's going to be out of the 220 possibilities, and I enjoy the tactics of ordering and resolving the Boons. It's what Tribute always should have been, that's my feeling.

I'm not even sure I would have liked that as much better. It'd still have many components and be very luck driven. I think the luck is obvious with the Boons, but the hot potato thing is just as much. Given you have so many Silvers, you will often have little influence on when you draw Fool, meaning you might have the state for 10 turns, or none. Either way, it's still Donald's game, and not mine. If he decides to do things the way he does, for whatever reason, then that's the way it is. But thank you for the info.

I don't think of Fool as really having more components than many Fate cards for any practical purpose. I guess it has an Heirloom. But I keep my Fools, Lucky Coins, and Lost in the Woods all in one slot in my storage solution, so the setup isn't bad.

Don't get me wrong, I wish Fool could have just been "Take 3 Boons. Receive them in any order." That would have been great. But it slowed games down way too much. Lucky Coin was added to fix that. And then when that wasn't enough, Lost in the Woods was added. I wish we could have then moved Lucky Coin to a different card, but it was getting very near the date when the set had to be done and Donald wasn't interested it trying it on another card. These days I often try to trash my Lucky Coin after a few plays (there's a reason it costs $4, also originally my suggestion).

And I'm sorry that when I complain it somehow manages to often hit things you were involved with. On the bright side, I have come to enjoy almost everything in Empires by now, except Farmer's Market and Wild Hunt, which have the same shuffle-timing issue I dislike about Fool. But Crown for example, which I think you were also involved with, is just fine for me, now. So I guess some things just need a little time, which is probably true to some degree about Boons and Hexes, too.

No need to apologize. I'm not at all upset about you disliking Fool. I was upset about your criticisms of Crown being inelegant because in my opinion that was (and still is) the most elegant way to do that concept.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #987 on: October 30, 2017, 04:04:53 pm »
+3

Yo Asper, it's been so long since I publically reviewed your cards. We’ve played with a lot of them last year and you revised them many times. Now I feel like writing something about them. I will only cover your “main set” cards. Edicts, Spellcasters and Team cards would be too much for me. Alright, here we go!

Alley: I can only remember one game with Alley where we both bought it lot. I assume we had extra buys there, which is of course the most common opportunity to snatch them up. Also, in contrast to Poor House, this is something you actually want when you Upgrade or Remake your Coppers. And that’s enough for it to be good. No more words required.

Decree: A decent Silver variant. You don’t always want it but when you do, you can usually do pretty nifty tricks with it. It benefits from Estate trashing and hates cursing attacks.

Sheriff: This is so clever, yet so simple, like so many of your cards. $4 or $5 seems like a good price to pay for this, and you should always open with it (paying the highest price possible) on any board where you would want a curser. You usually want a second one that costs at least $5, because if you paid too little for the first 2 and there’s still Curses left in the Supply, you have that difficult decision to make whether you buy a third Sheriff (which usually sucks for your deck). And that last part is the best thing about it!

Sunken City: I love Sunken City and always bought as many of them as possible. A more educated player would probably handle this more carefully as they tend to whiff about half of the time, unless you trash really fast and gain Action cards simultaneously. It looks like a double Herald but it’s really not. The missing card on the turn you play it hurts a lot when it whiffs. But that’s fine. It costs $2 after all. But one the right board it can be an excellent $2!

Carrier/ Nightwatch: This is completely new to me. It looks like a decent Peddler variant, but only in non-mirrors. My intuition tells me you want a lot of Carriers (3-4) fast but leave at least one on the pile so if other players want to block yours, they’d have to gain the last and  then gain Nightwatches and then have them in hand when you play your Carriers. Until that happens you will have gotten a lot of use out of your Carriers. But in games with 3-4 players, if everyone gets one or two Carriers each, they will probably suck for everyone as soon as people also have Nightwatches. Since there are so few of each card, it might feel extra bad if yours get blocked and your opponents’ don’t (and here I thought you don’t like that characteristic in a card). Still they are both okay cards (in matters of strength) since their opportunity cost is very low, even if you only buy them for one specific purpose. Lastly, I like the reaction of Nightwatch flavor-wise and am looking forward to some interesting multiplayer games with it.

Lady-in-Waiting: Two years ago, I might have said, this is rarely ever worth it. With the huge boost to alternate VP strategies since Empires, as well as lots of your cards supporting VP rushes, this is actually a decent card. Again, opportunity cost is the only thing that matters here. It’s a cantrip that leaves your deck once played which makes it perfect for BM + draw and “good stuff” decks. In both cases, it’s probably better than your third or fourth Silver.

Pilgrim: Ah yes, I remember our first (and only) game with Pilgrim as if it had been last week. There are several considerations to make before deciding how many Pilgrims you play when you have them in hand; How much $ do I want to make this turn? Can I find my key actions in my deck with this? Do I trigger a reshuffle with this? And most importantly, can I afford to give my opponent another Pilgrim? Tough decision in a simple card. I like it. The on-gain incentive is good. If Pilgrim tends to be bought too infrequently, just boost that.

Sawmill: This is a Chancellor variant in a fancy disguise. Don’t deny it! I know you liked Chancellor a lot ;) In the second shuffle, instead of +$2, you gain a card costing $2 or $3. If there’s any such card you want, Sawmill is probably better than Chancellor. And, other than the latter, Sawmill gets better each time you shuffle when building an engine. In slogs it’s horrible though.

Scientist: Neat. We played with Scientist once. I think it was balanced. Taking debt is an elegant penalty.

Well: Wasn’t this one of my favorite cards of yours? I still like it a lot. We should play with it soon!
Farmer: This was called Blacksmith before, I think. Back then I thought it was weak but it turned out picking cards from a large sample is actually pretty useful in most decks (monolithic strategies being the exception), provided there’s Copper trashing.

Heir: Cool idea. We played a game where you made it work but I can’t remember if you won or what. It’s certainly a powerful support card for Victory card rushes. Its flexibility should also make it useful in engines and help them green earlier.

Hunter: A weak-ish Lab variant that has gotten better over time. A must-buy in VP slogs where you rarely hit $5.

Scribe: A card that hurts engines the most. I would say I’m starting to see a pattern if the pattern wasn’t clearly in front of me, yet. Although I doubt the existence of this card in the Kingdom alone would be sufficient to discourage you from building even a weak engine. That’s because when you buy this card you essentially pay $4 for a much-delayed Silver. That’s bad. Like… really bad, especially for money decks (which want the Silver now, not later). Because of that delay, Scribe might be at its best in an engine mirror with spare actions. Even then it would struggle hard to be the best $4 to buy on any board.

Town/ Road: Another simple set of cards that require you to make important decisions. How many Roads do you want in your deck? A good player shouldn’t have too much trouble figuring that out though, I assume.

Assemble: I liked the old Assemble that gained two cards onto your deck with a total cost of up to $3 more than the trashed card. What was the problem with it? This is very different, although more useful overall. In a thin deck you can gain cheap engine components by trashing Coppers. When trashing is more scarce, you can buy Assemble in the end-game to turn $5-cards into Provinces. The Copper penalty for the $2-discount compared to Expand is totally reasonable here.

Cliffside Village: This is the first card in this list I don’t like. It’s boring and seems redundant even though there’s not actually an official card akin to this. It’s just perception.

Craftsmen: This is too powerful for $5. Artificer often gains $3-cost cards but you gotta do a lot of work if you want more expensive stuff, or you just gain a card with one Artificer per turn while the others gain nothing. Craftsmen just burn through piles with no downside while also providing economy. Drop the +$1 and it might be fine.

Maze: Another one of my favorites. This usually equates to a Duchy in points and provides cursing. It’s pretty powerful but the power is distributed over two different aspects (you get the other half of the benefit at the end of the game) and pay some opportunity cost (no economy) so it should be balanced.

Necromancer/ Zombie: Someone already compared this to Nocturne’s Necromancer and found enough differences so they should be able to happily coexist. Yours is stronger, hence it costs $5. I also like yours a bit more. Games with it have been fun.

Sanctuary: This might be situationally pretty good. If there are any attacks that you normally can’t ignore, I will ignore Sanctuary if I want to win. Although, I might be totally underestimating it. If there aren’t any good attacks, I will buy the heck out of this.

Tribunal: I like the idea. Some people might not like it. But they can’t possibly deem this more unfair or hurtful than Mountebank or Minion.

Werewolf: This would be among the strongest attack cards in Dominion. It’s pretty swingy and similar to Mountebank but not as absurdly swingy as the latter (which I have come to hate in the past weeks). +$3 is huge and Silver as a defense hurts engines a lot. Your Werewolf might drive games towards Big Money even more than Witch does. That’s quite a ridiculous claim. You could rename yours “Lycanthrope” or “Lycan”.

Minister: Finally an engine component! And what a potent one! I’ll gladly give you 2-3 VP if you’re going for a money strategy to gain all the great cards. If you’re going for engine as well, the penalty doesn’t even matter. I’m not saying it’s too strong. It costs $6. It competes with Goons so it better be powerful.

Homonculus: A cantrip trasher is good but it’s delayed and the opportunity cost is so high that I will happily ignore it if there’s any decent alternative trasher available. On boards with other good potion cards you probably don’t want this too early as having to trash and re-buy the Potion would be too painful.

Incantation: We conclude with a great, great card. Incantation is so good. A lot of fan cards with Potion cost just have it for the Potion’s sake but this is such a good non-terminal that $3P-cost seems very adequate. And its effect is unique, too! Design-wise, probably your best work.

Phew, I wrote quite an essay here. It made me want even more to play with your cards again.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #988 on: October 30, 2017, 04:35:57 pm »
0

Thanks for taking a look at all those cards again, Co0kieL0rd :)

I do agree Cliffside Village is too bland. It should probably have something else going on, like an on-gain effect, a Seasons effect, or be non-supply. Something, anything.

Craftsmen is based on Paddock, which only could gain Silvers. I think you might recall it being relatively weak. Unlike Artificer, it doesn't put the gained cards onto your deck.

I might just give Homunculus back the +1 Buy on buy, to make sure you're not sad to draw the Potion with a lot of money. It's a bit swingy otherwise.

And yes, I like non-engine boards at least once in a while. I still have Scientist, Well, Town, Minister, Sunken City, Sawmill, Sanctuary, Farmer, Homunculus and Incantation. But cards like Hunter, Lady-in-Waiting and Heir reward you for VP cards, both Scribe and Werewolf are rather Treasury-friendly attacks and Decree, Sheriff and Maze are stop cards (and two are Cursers, again).

Let's play again, soon :)
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #989 on: October 30, 2017, 07:08:17 pm »
+1

Craftsmen is based on Paddock, which only could gain Silvers. I think you might recall it being relatively weak. Unlike Artificer, it doesn't put the gained cards onto your deck.
I can imagine Paddock being a good buy whenever you hit $5 with a money deck. You'll only want one (or zero) in an engine which is why we might have perceived it as weak back then. I just found it to be boring, mostly.
Craftsmen, on the other hand, if there are cheap engine components you want, can drain those piles insanely fast. Too fast to be reasonable, even for $5, I think. Artificer can only do this under very specific circumstances. With Craftsmen, it seems too trivial.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #990 on: October 30, 2017, 07:42:29 pm »
+1

Craftsmen is based on Paddock, which only could gain Silvers. I think you might recall it being relatively weak. Unlike Artificer, it doesn't put the gained cards onto your deck.
I can imagine Paddock being a good buy whenever you hit $5 with a money deck. You'll only want one (or zero) in an engine which is why we might have perceived it as weak back then. I just found it to be boring, mostly.
Craftsmen, on the other hand, if there are cheap engine components you want, can drain those piles insanely fast. Too fast to be reasonable, even for $5, I think. Artificer can only do this under very specific circumstances. With Craftsmen, it seems too trivial.
My card Inventor is an Armory+Peddler at $5 and comes with a harsh downside. Even without +$1, cantrip card-gain is super strong due to its ridiculous pile control in so many games.

Craftsmen is at worst sleeper-overpowered.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #991 on: October 30, 2017, 08:03:41 pm »
0

Hum... I mean, I could go back to original Paddock and maybe give it a boost by adding some additional bonus, like an on-gain. I'll think about some options.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #992 on: November 07, 2017, 08:55:27 am »
+3

Navical, if you have Tabletop Simulator for Steam, I'd be up to playing a few games of fan-card heavy Dominion. It's not Shuffle IT, but still one of the best ways to playtest fan cards imo. Co0kieL0rd and I wouldn't have come all that far with Seasons without this.

Also, some ideas that'll have to wait until Nocturne is fully revealed, because I don't want to waste too much energy on doing something that'll be obsolete later:
- Remodel variant where you discard to determine the improvement, could use to be a Night card or some other bonus to be worth 5$
- Doom-Druid, an attack where you pick one of the set-aside Hexes to hit you Torturer-style
- Pay-to-topdeck Night card

Cards I might change soon:
- Homunculus gets a +buy on buy
- Paddock gets a bonus/opportunity cost reduction and switches back to gaining Silvers
- Either Northern Village or Lumbermen might lose the buy. This won't be my decision alone, as Co0kieL0rd, the co-creator of Seasons, is back. The set might undergo further changes, too.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #993 on: November 11, 2017, 01:31:23 pm »
+3

I spent about an hour today looking for an image of an (artificial) human, ideally looking at its reflection, identical or not. The problem wasn't to find such images, it was to find such images that were good. Card name: "Replica".

Edit: I like to edit my posts for no good reason.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 02:05:03 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #994 on: November 11, 2017, 06:34:52 pm »
+3

P-P-P-Potion Time!

All this talk about 2nd Edition Alchemy never coming over in the Possession thread made me think. So, here's a replacement fro Possession and one to use instead of/in addition to Scrying Pool to add to my other two Potion cards. Admittedly, Replica is kinda boring and hard to track, but it's still better than Possession I guess. Meh. I AM pretty happy with Crystal Ball, though. Also, Homunculus can replace Transmute whereas Incantation is just, uh, the additional 2nd Edition card...? I re-added the on-buy-buy, too.



Edit: I should probably mention that the idea for Replica is pretty much exactly something Donald described once. I just added the Victory anti-stall thing.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 06:38:14 pm by Asper »
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Accatitippi

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #995 on: November 12, 2017, 05:44:51 am »
+3

Incantation has always been a favorite of mine, even though I've actually never tried it. Will have to correct that sooner or later.

Crystal ball seems like it's overchastizing Scrying Pool. SP is overpowered compared to pretty much any other draw, but I could leave with that if only it wasn't so slow to resolve. That said, Crystal ball is clearly more balanced, so it may make for a more reasonable card. Maybe increase the inspection to 4?

I'm not sure that Replica will take away the unfun-ness of Possession games, since you can still play more than one Replica per turn. I appreciate the fact that it addresses the stalemate issue.
Also, in a Replica Engine mirror, the replicas will keep snowballing out of size, since they copy each other's gains.
A buys a Replica.
B buys a Replica.
A plays a Replica, gaining a Replica and buying a Village.
B plays a Replica, gaining a Replica and a Village, and buys a Potato
A plays a Replica, gaining a Replica, a Village, a Potato, and buys a Replica.
B plays two Replica, and the world explodes.
So, players will have to try and limit their gains, which is doubtfully fun.
I guess that at a certain point you just gain a quorum of Estates or Duchies with your Replica(s), and then gain estates and engine components and trash provinces one by one till the game ends miserably.

The problem of Possession is that it makes A's deck a better asset for B than it is for A, while A keeps control of it, so A's logical response is to destroy their deck.
Replica doesn't solve the problem: as soon as B can play two Replicas in a turn, each of A's gains is a bigger advantage for B than it is for A. The logical response is of course to make bad gains or not gaining at all, which brings us all the way around.

I strongly suspect that any Possession fix needs to either be once-per-turn or to be a one shot.

Homunculus is a very reasonable Transmute replacement, even though I'd still love to see a way to make the original concept work. :)
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #996 on: November 12, 2017, 08:49:45 am »
+1

Right, I see that Replica isn't that great as a card, even if only as a Possession replacement. I'll drop it. In retrospect, I wasn't even convinced of its quality when I posted it... The tracking also annoys me more when I think about it. And your point about players still getting more out of their opponent's deck than they is valid. I guess Replica is also not too interesting considering its similarity to Smugglers.

I haven't playtested Crystal Ball yet. Perhaps it should also put Potions in your hand, either way. I'll playtest that and perhaps I'll actually increase the reveal. I'm abit scared to do that, though.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #997 on: November 12, 2017, 01:41:07 pm »
0

The more I think about Crystal Ball, the more it looks like it's going to be Apothecary, just with "Coppers" replaced with "Action cards" and "4" replaced by "2". Not sure that's interesting enough.

I also pondered a Wishing Well like variant for 3$, but that's basically Herald.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 02:07:23 pm by Asper »
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #998 on: November 12, 2017, 03:02:38 pm »
+2

You could make Replica a Night card, limit gains to cards gained during the Action and Buy phase, and add a "if this is the first time you play a Replica this turn" clause, which IMHO should be in the official Possession. This version solves the "compounding gain" problem, and it's fast to resolve, but has tracking issues.

Another option would be to make it a Duration card, and gain cards as the next player does. Something like
Code: [Select]
At the beginning of next turn: bonus.
[hr]
While this card is in play, when the player to your left gains a card, you might gain {a copy of that card/a cheaper card that shares a type with it/etc}
This version has no tracking issues, no "compounding gain" problem, but having more than one in play means that the other player will likely just forgo their turn, since it's simply benefiting you more than them.

Of course, mixing Potions and Night cards would never happen in an official expansion, and mixing Durations with Potions is highly unlikely too, but eh.

EDIT: horizontal lines don't work anymore inside code snippets, or is it just me?


EDIT: Other idea, as a reserve card, with something like:

"At the start of Clean-Up of the player to your right, you may call this, to gain a copy of every card they gained during their {turn/buy phase}, then trash this"

If you go for "buy phase", then it's quite a bit weaker, but has limited tracking issues. If you go for turn, it's stronger but has worse tracking issues. Regardless, the fact that you have to trash it means that, even though the other player knows that you can call it, you only get to do so once, so just like with Torturer, you have to take the Curse eventually.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 03:16:01 pm by pacovf »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #999 on: November 12, 2017, 04:20:17 pm »
+2

I wanted to make a post listing the ideal characteristics of a Possession replacement, but the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that it is just impossible.

Anyway, here's an idea that solves trackability and "game theory" issues but introduces all sorts of other problems (mostly because of wording issues):

Freeloader - Reaction
When the player to your right has most recently gained a card, you may reveal this to gain a copy of that card.

Which makes me think of a Smuggler variant that would work slightly better and give fewer problems:
Toll - Reaction
When another player gains a non-Victory card, you may discard this to gain a copy of that card to your hand.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1000 on: November 12, 2017, 04:39:22 pm »
+2

Another option would be to make it a Duration card, and gain cards as the next player does. Something like
Code: [Select]
At the beginning of next turn: bonus.
[hr]
While this card is in play, when the player to your left gains a card, you might gain {a copy of that card/a cheaper card that shares a type with it/etc}

This version has no tracking issues, no "compounding gain" problem, but having more than one in play means that the other player will likely just forgo their turn, since it's simply benefiting you more than them.

I thought about a Duration variant like this. I discarded the idea because of the issue you mentioned: In a game with more than 2 players, you make a political, asymmetrical decision to forego your turn.

"At the start of Clean-Up of the player to your right, you may call this, to gain a copy of every card they gained during their {turn/buy phase}, then trash this"

If you go for "buy phase", then it's quite a bit weaker, but has limited tracking issues. If you go for turn, it's stronger but has worse tracking issues. Regardless, the fact that you have to trash it means that, even though the other player knows that you can call it, you only get to do so once, so just like with Torturer, you have to take the Curse eventually.
Freeloader - Reaction
When the player to your right has most recently gained a card, you may reveal this to gain a copy of that card.

I considered a Reaction version that you use at the end of the left player's buy phase, too. It needs to track less long, but on the other hand, it's nonterminal in a way. That's what I didn't like about it. I guess a Reserve would work, but if it's supposed to be a "Possession replacement", making it a Reserve isn't really an option. The idea was to do something players who hate Possession could put inside their Alchemy set to replace it.

About the card being a one-shot, this would mean you have to cost it much lower, which means it becomes more like Smuggler and less like Possession. Admittedly, I kind of tried to keep with the "insanely expensive" aspect of the original card.

I tend to believe that you can do a card that takes something another player gained before, but it'd have to look more like a Smuggler variant than like a Possession variant to really work out. And we already have Outpost to cover the other aspect of Possession, the extra turn thing. Maybe accepting that Smugglers works and Outpost kinda works is enough.

Toll - Reaction
When another player gains a non-Victory card, you may discard this to gain a copy of that card to your hand.

That works. It's actually a card Co0kieL0rd already did, though. His had added VP value, but apart from that, it was the same. I tend to believe you are right in your assessment on the possibility of a good Possession replacement that still keeps the spirit of Possession. It's probably impossible because the spirit of Possession is just not that great.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1001 on: November 12, 2017, 05:44:26 pm »
+2

How about something completely different:

Code: [Select]
Possession
Event: 6P
Place one of your Possession tokens on each of three different supply piles.
[hr]
When another player gains a card from a supply pile during their turn, you may remove one of your Possession tokens from that pile to gain a copy of it.

Obviously no idea whether it's balanced or not, mostly giving different directions in which the idea of a super smuggler could go. The idea is that you can only spend one Possession token per gain, but I am not sure I phrased that correctly to convey that. Making it an event makes it harder to spam, though it does mean it comes online faster. Main balance problem I could see is that, as an event, it's almost strictly better than buying a Province, so tweaking is probably necessary.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1002 on: November 12, 2017, 06:00:38 pm »
+2

How about something completely different:

Code: [Select]
Possession
Event: 6P
Place one of your Possession tokens on each of three different supply piles.
[hr]
When another player gains a card from a supply pile during their turn, you may remove one of your Possession tokens from that pile to gain a copy of it.

Obviously no idea whether it's balanced or not, mostly giving different directions in which the idea of a super smuggler could go. The idea is that you can only spend one Possession token per gain, but I am not sure I phrased that correctly to convey that. Making it an event makes it harder to spam, though it does mean it comes online faster. Main balance problem I could see is that, as an event, it's almost strictly better than buying a Province, so tweaking is probably necessary.

It's a fresh idea and could bring us somewhere, but as it is I'm afraid that it will make people shy away from the piles they'd like to buy and buying ePossession instead, leading to the usual Possession bore. It also has a small potential of being political, since it links supply piles to specific players.
If you limited Possession tokens to three per player, you'd avoid the better-than-Province issue, the accumulation of tokens, and the wording issue.

It's the Possession replacement that I'd be most interested in trying.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1003 on: November 13, 2017, 03:15:17 am »
+1

Another option would be to make it a Duration card, and gain cards as the next player does. Something like
Code: [Select]
At the beginning of next turn: bonus.
[hr]
While this card is in play, when the player to your left gains a card, you might gain {a copy of that card/a cheaper card that shares a type with it/etc}
This version has no tracking issues, no "compounding gain" problem, but having more than one in play means that the other player will likely just forgo their turn, since it's simply benefiting you more than them.

Something similar occurred to me, but I had it as:

Code: [Select]
+1 Buy
Move your possession token to the player to your left.

(Whenever a player buys a card, if they have your possession token, you may take back your token to gain a copy of that card.  If they buy a victory card, you must do so.)

By making it a token that you move and move back, you avoid having to think about multiples.  By making it mandatory for victory cards, the possessed player has some agency; if they hit $10, they could give you both an Estate before buying their Province.  For that to be possible, they need +Buy, so the card gives you +Buy.  I also toyed with having the card move all the possession tokens in front of you, which feels like it would be interesting in multi-player.

I don't think this version is worth 6P, but I don't mind that.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1004 on: November 14, 2017, 08:09:09 am »
+2

Played two games with Navical today. One had Sorcerer and Stone Circle as well as the Glory spell, while the other had Lady in Waiting. Both times I tried going for the "let VP cards not swamp my deck" strategy, and both times I lost to Navical pulling a megaturn. Highway and Sorcerer in the first game, Horn of Plenty in the second. It was nice to see a clear type of deck where Glory and the Lady are basically useless, because I was worried they (especially Glory) were too strong.

Also, thanks for the game  :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1005 on: December 01, 2017, 04:38:11 pm »
+1

After thinking about this back and forth, I have decided to settle with Blessing being an Edict after all. I was proud of it working as an Event, and everybody who doesn't care about Edicts can just as well use the Event, no harm. But for me personally, I feel the Edict is better in that it is much harder to forget if you do the effect at the start of your turn. You sit there, waiting to go, and know the plan. You don't go into your buy phase, have 5$, buy a Lab, and oops, I screwed up. So yeah. I'll go into mocking up Graces sooner or later once I have a state template.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1006 on: December 01, 2017, 05:49:08 pm »
+1

Just use the SHiT one. It looks pretty hard to replicate accurately.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1007 on: December 10, 2017, 07:27:54 pm »
0

Had a 5P(!) IRL game the day before yesterday, with Heir, Farmer, Town, Sawmill, Scientist, Royal Blacksmith, City Quarter, Castles, Forum and Courtier.

It was really long, but still we somehow had fun. I won using Town+Sawmill to bloat my deck with Action cards in this trashing-free, buy-low kingdom and then managed to get a few megaturns kickstarted by City Quarters, to draw my single Castle (small Castle) with Courtier. Town/City Quarter was interesting: Not only does the gaining of two Action cards at once improve your City Quarters, Town also goes back to your hand after you play it, bumping City Quarter a bit more. And even the Towns you draw dead help you a bit this way. I still think we all played rather poorly, but it was nice to see that my significant other liked Heir and Town quite a bit. The statement of a friend on Scientist was "Aren't there some funds he can use to finance his research?".

Also, one thing was that we all overestimated Courtier at first, given that it's flexible and can gain a Gold or give +3$ at worst. But well, you really needed either the terminal space or some type-rich cards, and somehow we didn't manage to make that work well even with Castles around. One mess of a game, but still fun.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1008 on: December 14, 2017, 07:06:25 am »
0

Anyone got any idea whether it's legally reasonable to post your own boardgame design on a webforum like these or BGG? I have made a little thing and would both love to stirr up some interest and get feedback (and if people have fun on the way, that doesn't hurt, right?), but I don't want to run into "this isn't fully yours now" territory. Maybe that's irrational.

If it makes a difference, I am not yet sure whether I want to have the work to go the crowdfunding course, or run the danger to have my game significantly altered by a publisher.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1009 on: December 14, 2017, 01:22:36 pm »
+1

I have no idea about your actual question, but I am curious, are you really considering publishing the game yourself, or would crowdfunding just lead to a print-and-play? Because that would be a huge undertaking, especially if you have no background in publishing. I would say finding a publisher is more reasonable. Even if they change the game to something you don’t recognize anymore, you will have more experience for the next time you have a game idea.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1010 on: December 14, 2017, 02:02:51 pm »
0

I have no idea about your actual question, but I am curious, are you really considering publishing the game yourself, or would crowdfunding just lead to a print-and-play? Because that would be a huge undertaking, especially if you have no background in publishing. I would say finding a publisher is more reasonable. Even if they change the game to something you don’t recognize anymore, you will have more experience for the next time you have a game idea.

Yes, admittedly the sheer work of putting out a game by myself is very scary. I felt it might be less work considering I have basically drawn everything already (it's a simple, silly look), so I'm pretty much already at a "print-and-play" state in that sense. It's only lacking a little balancing and coloring, but it's nor really a high game - more of a little silly dice game with a bit of dark humor. What really worries me is advertizing and generating interest, because I'm no good at that and even dislike spending time for this kind of thing. My main problem is that the game isn't really something I can propose to the regular German publisher, because I don't think they'll dig the humor. So that's why I wanted to have some additional feedback, to help me decide whether it was good enough to put out, to a publisher, or even just as print & play. Existing little game > nonexisting great game.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 02:04:31 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1011 on: December 14, 2017, 03:52:31 pm »
+1

I think getting it published through a publisher is better than crowdfunding a print-and-play, which is better than crowdfunding the whole game. The last one requires that you manage too many things: advertising, production, delivery, budgeting and pricing... Too many things can go wrong, and then you are the only one responsible for it. Even if everything goes reasonably well, you stand to lose money if the pricing is incorrect, how much disposable income do you have?

Going through a publisher is by far the better choice. Note how most successful game kickstarters were done by a team of people with previous experience in this domain. Print-and-play would be ok, I don't know how popular those are though.

So uh going back to the original question, I guess it would depend on the publisher. As far as I can tell, you can't patent or register game mechanics, so posting the rules online does nothing to change your (always non-existent) claim on them. But a publisher might be unhappy about it though, that sounds like a potential risk. In your situation, I would post them somewhere hard to find, and take them down when a publisher starts showing interest (or even earlier), but I have no idea whether that would lead to problems down the line or not.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1012 on: December 14, 2017, 05:42:59 pm »
+2

Thanks pacovf, that sounds very reasonable. Thank you for taking the time to think about this. In retrospect, all these points seem so obvious to me that I'm ashamed I had to ask. So thank you even more for taking the time to answer my rather oblivious question. I think I will go with trying to find a publisher, which in turn means that I think I should share it with individual people, but not post it online.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1013 on: December 15, 2017, 07:15:29 am »
+4

My main problem is that the game isn't really something I can propose to the regular German publisher, because I don't think they'll dig the humor.

If you go to the site of satire magazine 'Der Postillon', there's usually advertisements for 'non-politically correct' games ('Minderheitenquartett'). I have no knowledge about the publisher behind that, but it is safe to say that they are comfortable with humor you would never get past a major family-oriented publisher.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1014 on: December 15, 2017, 10:00:49 am »
0

My main problem is that the game isn't really something I can propose to the regular German publisher, because I don't think they'll dig the humor.

If you go to the site of satire magazine 'Der Postillon', there's usually advertisements for 'non-politically correct' games ('Minderheitenquartett'). I have no knowledge about the publisher behind that, but it is safe to say that they are comfortable with humor you would never get past a major family-oriented publisher.

Right, I know about Minderheitenquartett. I always kinda assumed it was a self-published thing by the creators. But I'll check again, and maybe they're the place to go. On the other hand, even though my game has a few dark spots, it's not something with a generally dark or controversial theme, so maybe it doesn't fit there, either. I kind of envisioned a US publisher, but I that doesn't exclude trying them for Germany. Thank you :)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 10:02:12 am by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1015 on: December 15, 2017, 11:09:11 am »
+2

After checking, it looks like both publishers I had in mind (including the Minderheitenquartett one) are basically publishing their own stuff. I'll approach them either way, I guess.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1016 on: December 15, 2017, 03:17:15 pm »
+1

After checking, it looks like both publishers I had in mind (including the Minderheitenquartett one) are basically publishing their own stuff. I'll approach them either way, I guess.

You can always ask for tips about how to get your stuff published too, if they say they aren't interested in publishing third party games. They will likely have more insight than any of us.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1017 on: January 09, 2018, 11:24:54 am »
+1

I didn't get to make the State cards I wanted to do, as I don't have access to a nice template yet. I'm sure there's a lot of space with States, especially States given by Events (in the sense that the State is not card-bound, like the Adventures tokens are).

But for now, some minor ideas. I'm not sure what exactly Invention should do, but for now I was content with them being un-trashable to enable tfb, and making it impossible to get rid of them, so they keep screwing with terminal draw in general. Although, thinking of it, Inventor's presence alone already makes other terminal draw less desirable overall. Ah well.


Also, here's the "spend remaining coins" Night card that I believed Nocturne would have but turned out not to have.


Science++

Edit: Convert doesn't have the expansion symbol because it uses the fabulous card image generator. Edited Convert to say "exactly".
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 11:29:49 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1018 on: January 09, 2018, 11:51:22 am »
+4

Anyone got any idea whether it's legally reasonable to post your own boardgame design on a webforum like these or BGG? I have made a little thing and would both love to stirr up some interest and get feedback (and if people have fun on the way, that doesn't hurt, right?), but I don't want to run into "this isn't fully yours now" territory. Maybe that's irrational.

If it makes a difference, I am not yet sure whether I want to have the work to go the crowdfunding course, or run the danger to have my game significantly altered by a publisher.

In the United States, the idea and methods of a game are not copyrightable.  So if you put your stuff online, anyone could steal your ideas and publish them themselves.  They could also just as easily do that once you've published the game.  Things that are covered by copyright are specific expressions of the ideas in your game.  That could include artwork, the rulebook text, the exact wordings on the cards, etc.

This is how "Words with Friends" gets away with basically being Scrabble.  Note that "Words with Friends" did change the board from what is used in Scrabble, anticipating the possible argument that the layout of the Scrabble board could be considered part of the artwork.

See: https://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.pdf
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1019 on: January 09, 2018, 12:01:33 pm »
+3

So I was thinking about Convert a bit today, I think it maybe compares too well to Salvager with it being non-terminal? The effect of trashing a card and then spending money to upgrade it is very similar to getting +$ equal to it's cost and +1 buy. Maybe making the gain mandatory so it's worse at Copper trashing would make it enough worse? You can still spend $1 and fail to gain something costing exactly $1.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1020 on: January 09, 2018, 12:17:15 pm »
+1

Anyone got any idea whether it's legally reasonable to post your own boardgame design on a webforum like these or BGG? I have made a little thing and would both love to stirr up some interest and get feedback (and if people have fun on the way, that doesn't hurt, right?), but I don't want to run into "this isn't fully yours now" territory. Maybe that's irrational.

If it makes a difference, I am not yet sure whether I want to have the work to go the crowdfunding course, or run the danger to have my game significantly altered by a publisher.

In the United States, the idea and methods of a game are not copyrightable.  So if you put your stuff online, anyone could steal your ideas and publish them themselves.  They could also just as easily do that once you've published the game.  Things that are covered by copyright are specific expressions of the ideas in your game.  That could include artwork, the rulebook text, the exact wordings on the cards, etc.

This is how "Words with Friends" gets away with basically being Scrabble.  Note that "Words with Friends" did change the board from what is used in Scrabble, anticipating the possible argument that the layout of the Scrabble board could be considered part of the artwork.

See: https://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.pdf

Thanks a lot, this has been really helpful information  :)

So I was thinking about Convert a bit today, I think it maybe compares too well to Salvager with it being non-terminal? The effect of trashing a card and then spending money to upgrade it is very similar to getting +$ equal to it's cost and +1 buy. Maybe making the gain mandatory so it's worse at Copper trashing would make it enough worse? You can still spend $1 and fail to gain something costing exactly $1.
You are right, it is indeed very similar to Salvager. Thanks, I didn't think of that. Back to the drawing board...
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1021 on: January 12, 2018, 03:07:52 pm »
+1

I've thought over Inventor and Invention a bit now, Inventor seems like it would be a very good $5 Smithy variant on it's own. Probably not as good as the broken trio (Margrave, Torturer and Wild Hunt) but better than the others. I understand that the Inventions are meant to screw with terminal draw, but they kind of just turn Inventors into Lab/Smithy split cards. Terminal draw also just isn't good very often anyway, even by big money standards.

Trash for benefit doesn't really need much to be the best payload on any board, so I feel like Inventor/Invention will just make the good things better and the bad things worse?

Although this is coming from the viewpoint of a competitive player, it could be possible that Inventor messes with things for less serious players and enables crazy things for serious players though.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1022 on: January 13, 2018, 01:17:59 am »
0

Yeah, I think neither of these ideas was all that good. I also just realized that my first draft of Convert (not posted here, but perhaps you saw it in TTS), which discards cards and costs 5$, was already considered by Donald and is an outtake.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1023 on: January 20, 2018, 01:18:52 pm »
+1

I feel pretty dumb for not thinking of this version before... It now can't trash Estates anymore, but can instead use the money of cards it trashes. I have absolutely no idea whether it's still too strong. Probably it is...?

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1024 on: January 20, 2018, 01:48:26 pm »
+3

Now you can play a card and remodel it on the same turn. You can play a Gold and use the coins from the Gold to remodel it into a province, with $1 left over, and it's non-terminal. Seems way too good compared to Salvager and Remodel.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1025 on: January 20, 2018, 02:20:12 pm »
0

Now you can play a card and remodel it on the same turn. You can play a Gold and use the coins from the Gold to remodel it into a province, with $1 left over, and it's non-terminal. Seems way too good compared to Salvager and Remodel.

It's good for Gold, and yes, I thought about the comparison to Remodel there. On the other hand, you can't trash Estates at all.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1026 on: January 20, 2018, 06:02:34 pm »
+1

Not being able to trash Estates is a hefty downside for sure, but it can trash Coppers much better than Salvager and is non-terminal. It can also trash itself like a super Death Cart or something, but if that's problematic it's easy to fix. It might be okay as is though, it doesn't seem like a great early buy any more - apart from the self-trashing.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1027 on: January 20, 2018, 09:27:08 pm »
+1

I feel pretty dumb for not thinking of this version before... It now can't trash Estates anymore, but can instead use the money of cards it trashes. I have absolutely no idea whether it's still too strong. Probably it is...?



I like this. The only comparison I can think of is to Bonfire, and it's quite different. The idea of putting the produced by a card into the upgrade itself is neat.
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Jeebus

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1028 on: January 21, 2018, 01:09:45 am »
+1

Removing "you may" will probably make it more balanced considering that it costs $4 and is non-terminal. It's a very cool idea though, kind of a mix of Salvager and Procession.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1029 on: January 21, 2018, 08:08:27 am »
0

Not being able to trash Estates is a hefty downside for sure, but it can trash Coppers much better than Salvager and is non-terminal. It can also trash itself like a super Death Cart or something, but if that's problematic it's easy to fix. It might be okay as is though, it doesn't seem like a great early buy any more - apart from the self-trashing.

Good point about the self-trashing. I think I will remove that.



Hm... Should I care about or exclude Durations? That'll be yet another nerf in case people are worried.

I kind of dislike the idea of removing the "you may", because to inexperienced players spending the 1$ of a Copper to "trick the card" might seem a bit unintuitive.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1030 on: January 21, 2018, 08:11:04 am »
+1

Convert needs wording to avoid tracking issues with Durations.

Notes:
- Cannot trash Estates
- Grants no inherent increment to the cost of the card
- Cannot Convert to cheaper cards
- Is a stop card (since it is a Night card)
+ Tempo-trash Coppers
+ Trashes cards played
+ "Non-terminal" (since it is a Night card)
+ Can Expand cards, or better (at a cost)
+ Can Convert itself
Losing Estate trashing is a huge weakness (though I think a major benefit in differentiating it from the similar Butcher), so I would not worry for Convert overpowering its peers. I suspect Convert's ability to target itself will be a huge boon to it.

I think its tempo-trashing and its inability to gain cards cheaper than the ones it trashes are both weird features. The card would be more intuitive if the gain was mandatory and "up to" the amount.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1031 on: January 21, 2018, 08:25:00 am »
+3

I like Fragasnap's suggestion.

If I make it both mandatory and "up to" there is no "card tricking", and it should also shift the card a bit from being a nonterminal Copper trasher to being a Remodel variant, which was the original intention. Therefore:

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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1032 on: January 22, 2018, 12:19:07 pm »
0

Somebody outlined to me today that Copper trashing is still perfectly possible with this as long as you forego your buy (you instead upgrade the Copper into what you would have bought). It's not the same if you play several Transforms or have too little money to buy anything, but it still feels kind of like tricking the card again. So perhaps I'll go back to "you may". "Up to" still seems fine. I guess I could cost it at five if necessary. It could even give a coin you can only use to upgrade stuff in this case, but I'd rather be careful here.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1033 on: January 22, 2018, 01:41:26 pm »
+1

I assumed that Copper trashing was intentional. It seems worse than Monastery at Copper trashing, but maybe it's too much given the other applications of the card.
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Jeebus

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1034 on: January 22, 2018, 01:51:33 pm »
+1

I don't see any "card tricking" in the current version. Butcher does the exact same thing (just with coin tokens instead of coins).

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1035 on: January 22, 2018, 04:15:10 pm »
0

I don't see any "card tricking" in the current version. Butcher does the exact same thing (just with coin tokens instead of coins).

I on the other hand don't see how it is any similar to Butcher... The thing was that the card said "if you trash, you must gain", but you can avoid having to gain a cheap card as a replacement for Copper by just using the money you would have normally spent buying a card on the Remodelling instead, which makes the mandatoryness obsolete. You can't trick Butcher this way, because if you have e.g. 3$ and then play Butcher, you can't remodel a Copper into a 5$. You can remodel it into a 2$ and have 3$ to spend, or buy the 5$ and keep the Copper (or replace it with another 0$). Convert DOES allow you to both get the 5$ and remove the Copper from your deck, as you can use the same amount you could have used to buy a card.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1036 on: January 22, 2018, 04:20:24 pm »
+2

I'm not sure what you mean by "card tricking"... you mean using it in a way other than what the designer (you) intended? I don't see any issue with the ability to turn a Copper into a when it also costs you your buy for the turn. If you made the gain "may", then you have a weird stupid decision to make between buying a and gaining nothing when you trash the Copper, or buying nothing and gaining a when you trash the Copper. Just force them to do the latter if they want the . Unless it turns out that the ability to trash Copper is too strong; (which it probably won't be if it can't trash Estates or Curses), then I don't the problem.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1037 on: January 22, 2018, 06:24:13 pm »
+1

I'm not sure what you mean by "card tricking"... you mean using it in a way other than what the designer (you) intended? I don't see any issue with the ability to turn a Copper into a when it also costs you your buy for the turn. If you made the gain "may", then you have a weird stupid decision to make between buying a and gaining nothing when you trash the Copper, or buying nothing and gaining a when you trash the Copper. Just force them to do the latter if they want the . Unless it turns out that the ability to trash Copper is too strong; (which it probably won't be if it can't trash Estates or Curses), then I don't the problem.

No, it's really not about whether I do or not do want the card to trash Coppers. I just don't want players to think "Aha, this is mandatory", when they can circumvent that. Why even make the wording act as if it was mandatory when it isn't? And it's not costing you your buy, it's actually netting you a buy, if you will. And then, if the Copper-replacing isn't actually mandatory (in the basic cases), I don't want to put a puzzle into the player's way to figure out how they can make that work. It's hard to put this in words, but I'd prefer if reading the card matched the way you can play it. I think the puzzle is much weirder than just allowing both ways to achieve the same thing. It's not like "do I play Copper or Silver first" is a stupid decision only because both options do the same thing. It's not a decision at all, because who cares, and at least that's how I feel about this. I feel this forces people to care about something just because I want them to care, when I could just let them do it their way. I mean, there's still a lot to think about and consider as soon as you don't want to spend all your money on the same card, which I feel is the more interesting case, either way. I wonder how often it'll just be either a nonterminal Copper trasher or a nonterminal Salvager that plays the card, though. Maybe the card has too many applications.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1038 on: January 22, 2018, 06:33:06 pm »
+1

No, it's really not about whether I do or not do want the card to trash Coppers. I just don't want players to think "Aha, this is mandatory", when they can circumvent that.
It matters when you have multiple Converts since only the first Convert can Convert your Copper into the thing you wanted to buy. Since different Converts can target each other, I imagine that acquiring multiple Converts will be optimal.
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Jeebus

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1039 on: January 22, 2018, 10:44:39 pm »
+1

No, it's really not about whether I do or not do want the card to trash Coppers. I just don't want players to think "Aha, this is mandatory", when they can circumvent that. Why even make the wording act as if it was mandatory when it isn't?

This is why I compared it to Butcher. If you trash a Copper with Butcher, you have to gain a card. If you have coin tokens from before, you can use them to gain a card costing more than $2 (or it might be that a $2-cost is fine). I don't see any difference, rules-wise, between this and Convert letting you get rid of the Copper by paying coins. Either you have coins enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. With Buther, either you have coin tokens enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. And the coins/coin tokens you use can't then be used for your buy.

Yes, this situation will be more common for Convert, but it's certainly not unusual for Butcher.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 10:48:23 pm by Jeebus »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1040 on: January 23, 2018, 02:19:40 am »
0

No, it's really not about whether I do or not do want the card to trash Coppers. I just don't want players to think "Aha, this is mandatory", when they can circumvent that. Why even make the wording act as if it was mandatory when it isn't?

This is why I compared it to Butcher. If you trash a Copper with Butcher, you have to gain a card. If you have coin tokens from before, you can use them to gain a card costing more than $2 (or it might be that a $2-cost is fine). I don't see any difference, rules-wise, between this and Convert letting you get rid of the Copper by paying coins. Either you have coins enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. With Buther, either you have coin tokens enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. And the coins/coin tokens you use can't then be used for your buy.

Yes, this situation will be more common for Convert, but it's certainly not unusual for Butcher.

My point is that for Convert the question "can I transform the Copper intto card X" and "Can I buy card X" are equal (in the base case of having enough money and only one Convert, as I already stated). This is not the case for Butcher.

I am kind of surprised so many people disagree with me here, so I'll have to reconsider where we get to different conclusions. Admittedly I don't see it yet, but my experience tells me there's something I'm missing.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 02:22:08 am by Asper »
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1041 on: January 23, 2018, 02:53:45 am »
+2

No, it's really not about whether I do or not do want the card to trash Coppers. I just don't want players to think "Aha, this is mandatory", when they can circumvent that. Why even make the wording act as if it was mandatory when it isn't?

This is why I compared it to Butcher. If you trash a Copper with Butcher, you have to gain a card. If you have coin tokens from before, you can use them to gain a card costing more than $2 (or it might be that a $2-cost is fine). I don't see any difference, rules-wise, between this and Convert letting you get rid of the Copper by paying coins. Either you have coins enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. With Buther, either you have coin tokens enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. And the coins/coin tokens you use can't then be used for your buy.

Yes, this situation will be more common for Convert, but it's certainly not unusual for Butcher.

My point is that for Convert the question "can I transform the Copper intto card X" and "Can I buy card X" are equal (in the base case of having enough money and only one Convert, as I already stated). This is not the case for Butcher.

I am kind of surprised so many people disagree with me here, so I'll have to reconsider where we get to different conclusions. Admittedly I don't see it yet, but my experience tells me there's something I'm missing.

I understand where you're coming from on this. I'm not sure that I agree that trashing Coppers into something using your money is a hidden puzzle like you seem to be describing it as though. I mean you're trashing a card and spending your money to gain one, it's exactly what the card says to do and with this trashing from Play, Copper is probably the first thing you think of when you're deciding whether to buy one of these during the opening. It seems more obvious to me than say that you can return zero cards to Ambassador and still give out cards (this is more a problem with Ambassador though tbh). Adding a "you may"  to it increases word count, which I like to avoid where possible and can also lead to weird things like spending all your money and then declining to gain - which is probably harmless, but is still strange.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1042 on: January 23, 2018, 08:42:46 am »
0

No, it's really not about whether I do or not do want the card to trash Coppers. I just don't want players to think "Aha, this is mandatory", when they can circumvent that. Why even make the wording act as if it was mandatory when it isn't?

This is why I compared it to Butcher. If you trash a Copper with Butcher, you have to gain a card. If you have coin tokens from before, you can use them to gain a card costing more than $2 (or it might be that a $2-cost is fine). I don't see any difference, rules-wise, between this and Convert letting you get rid of the Copper by paying coins. Either you have coins enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. With Buther, either you have coin tokens enough to spend to turn the copper into a desirable card or you don't. And the coins/coin tokens you use can't then be used for your buy.

Yes, this situation will be more common for Convert, but it's certainly not unusual for Butcher.

My point is that for Convert the question "can I transform the Copper intto card X" and "Can I buy card X" are equal (in the base case of having enough money and only one Convert, as I already stated). This is not the case for Butcher.

I am kind of surprised so many people disagree with me here, so I'll have to reconsider where we get to different conclusions. Admittedly I don't see it yet, but my experience tells me there's something I'm missing.

I understand where you're coming from on this. I'm not sure that I agree that trashing Coppers into something using your money is a hidden puzzle like you seem to be describing it as though. I mean you're trashing a card and spending your money to gain one, it's exactly what the card says to do and with this trashing from Play, Copper is probably the first thing you think of when you're deciding whether to buy one of these during the opening. It seems more obvious to me than say that you can return zero cards to Ambassador and still give out cards (this is more a problem with Ambassador though tbh). Adding a "you may"  to it increases word count, which I like to avoid where possible and can also lead to weird things like spending all your money and then declining to gain - which is probably harmless, but is still strange.

I think I see your point, but as the card (base case) isn't mandatory, I feel that while it increases the word count to spell this out it actually decreases complexity. Maybe I need to ask someone less versed in Dominion about this, e.g. "Do you think this can be used to get rid of Coppers easily?". Maybe I'm imagining it much less obvious than it is. I can just say, I didn't see it at first. And, well, I guess you can spend money on nothing. I don't see that being an issue on an actual card, though. I guess online it would make for rather unenjoyable misclicks, but that's nothing that'll ever matter. And in the end, whether you do or don't spend the money, it's not like it'll be worth anything in your Night phase either way.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1043 on: January 23, 2018, 03:14:04 pm »
+2

Ok, now I'm having trouble seeing how this isn't just a non-terminal Salvager that trashes cards in play rather than from hand. The difference between buying and gaining in this case seems meaningless. If that is what it is; then it's probably much stronger than Salvager... although Salvager can trash Estates, and has some nice end-game tricks with Provinces also, the ability to trash treasures and actions that you've already played; as well as being a Night card instead of an Action, sound much more powerful.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 06:23:58 pm by GendoIkari »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1044 on: January 23, 2018, 08:56:29 pm »
0

Hum... Alright, I guess I'll try to think about this again. Maybe I can use the "pay to get something" mechanic for something else, where I don't run into such proximity to existing cards in the first place.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1045 on: January 24, 2018, 11:22:30 am »
+3

I don't think it's too much like Salvager. Not being able to trash Estates is an enormous difference (and makes Convert much weaker).

I'm not saying Convert is definitely balanced at $4, but I wouldn't give up on it due to its similarities to Salvager. They're just not very similar.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1046 on: January 25, 2018, 11:59:20 am »
+1

I don't think it's too much like Salvager. Not being able to trash Estates is an enormous difference (and makes Convert much weaker).

I'm not saying Convert is definitely balanced at $4, but I wouldn't give up on it due to its similarities to Salvager. They're just not very similar.

Yeah I don't necessarily think it's too much like Salvager to be worth having. Just that in this case, "gain a card" happens to work almost exactly the same as "+1 buy" due to the ability to choose how much money you spend on your buy vs how much money you save for the gain. Of course, as a Night card, it can't be +1 buy instead. And if it were an action, it couldn't trash treasures. It could be a treasure with +1 buy instead though.

*Edit* Basically, the main difference between "+, +1 buy" and "gain a card costing up to " has always been that the +1 buy is stronger because it allows you to combine that with other you have, or split it up however you want. Convert uses the "gain a card" language, but functions a lot more like +1 buy.

So I would probably suggest this card with does 95% the same thing:

Convert - Treasure -

+1 buy
When you play this, trash a card you have in play.
+ per it costs.

The only real difference is that this version can't trash Night cards. (And whatever other things come with it being a Treasure vs a Night card).
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 12:19:09 pm by GendoIkari »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1047 on: January 25, 2018, 02:05:26 pm »
+1

The only real difference is that this version can't trash Night cards. (And whatever other things come with it being a Treasure vs a Night card).

And it can trash itself, which is potentially crazy.

But also, I think the Night version has easier tracking.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1048 on: January 25, 2018, 11:16:15 pm »
0

Well, I guess "You could do this Night card as a Treasure worth 0$" goes for Changeling, Exorcist, Vampire, Bat, Werewolf and Cobbler, too. Of course a Treasure version also could be worded to keep it from trashing itself. Hum...

I thought about other things it could do. If it always just upgraded itself, it would be too similar to Changeling.
If it converted coins into draw (for next turn), it would be a duration-Storyteller.
If it just gained a card, it would be a nonterminal +buy.
If it just trashes a card from hand, it would be Salvager.

Other things I could do would be having it be a Scheme for several cards, a Scavanger for several cards, or a Remake for several cards. Like:
"Pay any amount of $. Per 1$ you paid, trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing (up to/exactly) 1$ more."
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1049 on: January 28, 2018, 07:34:25 pm »
+2

I saw this image while looking for something completely unrelated today and decided it needed to be on a Victory card named "Lair". Ah well. Maybe it should cost 6$ and give 3 VP.



The Tournament-Style states aren't as fun to do as I figured, but maybe my interest just grew cold. Also, a version of Assassin that uses a State ("Vengeful") which gives +1 Action when you play an Attack card died when it choked on too many words. De mortuis nihil nisi bene.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 07:35:39 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1050 on: January 28, 2018, 09:41:49 pm »
+3

Cute, but probably too strong as is? Spirits are quite underpriced.

I would phrase it "when you gain this, gain two Spirits from their respective piles, with a total cost of up to 4$", sounds kinda weird the way you have it now.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1051 on: January 29, 2018, 12:06:48 am »
+2

Cute, but probably too strong as is? Spirits are quite underpriced.

I would phrase it "when you gain this, gain two Spirits from their respective piles, with a total cost of up to 4$", sounds kinda weird the way you have it now.

Yeah, I figured it might need to cost 6$. On the other hand, it's a stop card itself.

I phrased it that way to make clear what your options are if Will-O-Wisps are out. Edit: I think I could just make it "up to 2 Spirits" and then use your wording to achieve the same effect. Has the added bonus of not forcing people to take Wisps or additional Imps in those cases where they don't want any.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 12:18:22 am by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1052 on: January 29, 2018, 12:22:26 pm »
+1

I love all the Spirits so by extension I like what Lair is trying to do.

My main worry is that there are only 6 Ghosts. It doesn't seem like too much of a problem in 2-player but in 3+ player it would be sad that there are 12 Lairs but only half of them can get Ghosts. I suppose with this being a fan card you can just play with more than 6 Ghosts if you want. Ghost is also super strong so it might be too good to get Ghost+Wisp on this, but getting the Victory card should balance that enough... maybe.

I do like the idea of a Victory card that comes with some strong good cards, I actually have a similar idea that I'm thinking about at the moment. It's an action that you can gain for free when you gain an Estate, like a Duchess but you want the action so you buy an Estate to get it for cheap. I haven't really thought of a good card to put that on yet though.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1053 on: January 29, 2018, 12:37:06 pm »
0

I love all the Spirits so by extension I like what Lair is trying to do.

My main worry is that there are only 6 Ghosts. It doesn't seem like too much of a problem in 2-player but in 3+ player it would be sad that there are 12 Lairs but only half of them can get Ghosts. I suppose with this being a fan card you can just play with more than 6 Ghosts if you want. Ghost is also super strong so it might be too good to get Ghost+Wisp on this, but getting the Victory card should balance that enough... maybe.

I do like the idea of a Victory card that comes with some strong good cards, I actually have a similar idea that I'm thinking about at the moment. It's an action that you can gain for free when you gain an Estate, like a Duchess but you want the action so you buy an Estate to get it for cheap. I haven't really thought of a good card to put that on yet though.

My consideration here was, the earlier you get those Lairs, the more they themselves will be in your way. Two Imps are probably not as good as a Ghost and a Wisp, but later in the game the VP portion is going to matter more. So I felt it kind of evens out. I'm just glad that without other cards that gain Spirits, there will be enough (though not the same) for everyone.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1054 on: January 29, 2018, 02:34:02 pm »
+2

Here's the updated VP version of Lair. I also developed an Action version of it, but somehow I really wanted the card to be a VP card and decided for the version posted first. Thinking about it a bit more, it's slightly redundant to Cemetary in that it's a VP-Card with an on-gain ability that allows you to gain Ghosts. So, here's an Action version that does the opposite, too.

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Chappy7

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1055 on: January 29, 2018, 04:12:58 pm »
+2

I think I'd still buy the VP Lair for $7.  As for the action lair, it, being an action card and a $2 card, can help imp and wisp, but you totally don't want it to be what your Ghost finds, so maybe it evens out, but getting an Imp for $4 seems really really strong.  I'm not sure what to think about this one.
I really like another way to get spirits though.  This seems like a fun card.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1056 on: January 29, 2018, 05:20:31 pm »
+3

The Action one seems pretty broken to me. Wisp+a free cantrip for $2 is insane! Or can you not pay $0? I'm pretty sure you can?
Imp+ free cantrip seems amazing for $4 too, same for Ghost at $6, I think this should cost $3 at least.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1057 on: January 29, 2018, 05:25:11 pm »
+2

Lair seems particularly OP at because it can be drawn by Wisps. Filling your deck with Wisps and Lairs seems to be a very good strategy, especially with cheap buys such as Candlestick Maker. Druid + Swamp's Gift is good enough already!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1058 on: January 29, 2018, 05:44:20 pm »
+1

Lair seems particularly OP at because it can be drawn by Wisps. Filling your deck with Wisps and Lairs seems to be a very good strategy, especially with cheap buys such as Candlestick Maker. Druid + Swamp's Gift is good enough already!

Yeah that's what I was thinking when I said it was insane, even though I forgot to say it. I also gives you a differently named card to go with Imp.

Cantrips are even deece to get with Ghost because start of turn +cards and +actions is great.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1059 on: January 29, 2018, 06:18:42 pm »
+2

I feel like the action Lair is too strong, but I would have to see it play to be sure. Imp+Cantrip for 4$ in particular seems like it might be too much.

Then again, strength by itself is not necessarily a problem, if it leads to fun games, which might be the case here.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1060 on: January 29, 2018, 07:46:38 pm »
0

Well, the reason why it costs 2$ is exactly to have it interact with Wisp. I also wanted it to be gainable, which is why I used another wording than overpay (as you can't overpay 0$). Although, I guess I could use standard overpay if I re-word it Exorcist-style, which would also increase the opportunity cost a bit:



It's worse than Lab when buying it for Imp, but not even strictly, so I guess it's just fine.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1061 on: January 30, 2018, 02:04:11 am »
+1

This version looks fine. It is hard to judge how muih Spirits should cost as Kingdom cards, not at least because they were never designed as Kingdom cards, but my rough guess is that Ghost is a 6/7, that Imp is a very good 4 (obviously it cannot cost 5) and that Wish is a 3.
The only issue seems to be the synergy between Lair and Wisps in game without trashing. Wisp is guaranteed to be a Lab if you open double Lair/Wisp and even when you then buy more expensive cards it will ore often be a Lab than not (and you might not want to buy that many expensive cards when you can get a Lab for 3).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1062 on: January 30, 2018, 02:50:35 pm »
+1

Here's a version that I hope makes Lair less Wisp-centered: It now costs too much to be picked up itself and you can't open double-Wisp:





Also, that Event-for-State thing. It's funny how I saw several people do similar things, but never (to my knowledge) just "Adventures tokens that don't care about cards". There are 6 copies of the State, of course. It's mostly a "proof of concept" thing, but feel free to assess whether perma-chancellor is broken (at 6$).

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1063 on: January 30, 2018, 05:02:55 pm »
+3

I question the flavour of Luck/Lucky, I mean have you seen Chancellors face? That guy is anything but lucky, they even removed him-one of the unluckiest cards ever for sure! I actually believe Donald X. removed the Chancellor effect from Moon's Gift so there could be no association between the true luckiest card Fool and Chancellor.

I doubt Lucky is broken, I suspect that at $6 it would share a similar problem to Royal Seal. That is that foregoing buying a $6 card will probably slow you down more than the Chancelloring will speed you up. Not that that's a bad thing, I'm sure it's good in some situations which is better than it being good in every situation. I also wouldn't be surprised if I'm way off and it's actually super good.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1064 on: January 30, 2018, 05:08:51 pm »
+1

The discard deck after cleanup effect seems like it would be much better than Chancellor's version, just because of the timing.  Although, this isn't so lucky once you are in full green mode.  I don't think I'd buy this often? But I easily could be wrong.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1065 on: January 30, 2018, 09:09:08 pm »
+1

Well, I originally wanted to do something about "chance". So there you go, flavor-wise. I thought about costing it at 5$, and at 4$ before that. So I have a hard time judging stength here, myself. If I compare it to Hireling, which has an even higher opportunity cost to get going, I feel like always having those new-bought cards at your disposal might not be all that much worse - even though it kind of falls flat as soon as you green. Huh. Maybe 5$ would be okay after all...
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1066 on: January 31, 2018, 04:35:19 am »
+1

In my opinion Chancellor is a high-skill card: you have to constantly track your deck to know whether discarding your deck makes sense or whether you want to wait for a particular, most likely singular card that you will draw next turn.
6 seems expensive to me but due to the above I am probably underestimating the strength of the Chancellor effect and 5 or 6 is not such a huge difference. 4 would definitely be too cheap.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1067 on: February 11, 2018, 05:38:22 am »
0

It just occurred to me that if you have Lady-in-waiting and Inheritance on the board, the Lady enables you to have Reserve-Estates ready to be called from the get-go. But it raised a rules question: If I inherit Duplicate or Lady-in-Waiting itself and put a freshly gained Estate on the Tavern Mat, should that Duplicate be able to trigger on its own gaining? If yes, Inherited Ladies would allow me to chain one Estate gain into emptying (and trashing most of) the Estate pile. Are there examples on official cards triggering on an event they caused? It's not infinite obviously, but I don't think I recall this happening for any official cards.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1068 on: February 11, 2018, 09:57:55 am »
+1

It just occurred to me that if you have Lady-in-waiting and Inheritance on the board, the Lady enables you to have Reserve-Estates ready to be called from the get-go. But it raised a rules question: If I inherit Duplicate or Lady-in-Waiting itself and put a freshly gained Estate on the Tavern Mat, should that Duplicate be able to trigger on its own gaining? If yes, Inherited Ladies would allow me to chain one Estate gain into emptying (and trashing most of) the Estate pile. Are there examples on official cards triggering on an event they caused? It's not infinite obviously, but I don't think I recall this happening for any official cards.

You have to Inherit Duplicate for this to work, so you'd have to have a bunch of regular Ladies-in-Waiting on the mat and then I believe the rules are that you can put the Estate on the mat and then call it from the mat as Duplicate to gain another Estate and then trash a Lady and continue until you run out of Ladies. If you inherit Lady-in-waiting and have a bunch of Estates on the mat then you can trash one of those Estates to put the freshly gained Estate on the mat, but that seems a bit pointless. I wouldn't worry about Duplicate because it's a 3 card "combo" which will rarely happen and it needs quite a lot of setup anyway.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1069 on: February 11, 2018, 03:33:10 pm »
0

Man, I don't know how, but somehow in my mind I combined the abilities of Lady-in-Waiting and Duplicate, which would have enabled an inherited Estate to set off a gain-chain. Oopsie.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1070 on: March 19, 2018, 01:53:55 pm »
+1

Okay so yesterday I wrote a massive post going through all of your cards because it was snowy and I had nothing else to do, and I was just finishing it off this afternoon instead of doing work because I'm an idiot and I accidentally deleted it instead of posting it. So I'll try and just write something shorter on a few cards I had any real problems with. I was literally up to Urbanisation!!!  :'(

Sheriff: Seems too strong, I think it needs to cost at least $3. You can get one of these for $4 on the opening and then one for $5 on the second shuffle and that gives you 5 tokens so it's kinda like you've bought a terminal Silver curser for $4 which seems a little too good for me.

Farmer: This seems like it is to Journeyman what Oracle is to Catacombs, so I thinm it can get away with being $3.

Town/Road: This seems like a pretty clear $5 to me. Playing a Town and then Road is better than Lab! Sure, you have to draw them together for that to happen, but this can even just be a regular Village or a Smithy if you double play the Road. I think all this extra functionality makes up for the early unreliability. The Road gain isn't even mandatory!

Cliffside Village: This is incredibly powerful, but you probably realise that. Better than Junk Dealer easily, villages are great.

Necromancer/Zombie: I don't think a kingdom pile based around the Rogue/Graverobber+Knights interaction is a good idea. These game would never end!

Tribunal: I'd be careful about this, the attack seems like it could be very frustrating! I imagine Tribunal big money to be particularly agonising!

Minister: It's probably broken, but all the cost reduction cards are so I guess it just join the party!

Improve: I think this should just be remodel, not expand. Trashing an Estate to gain a $4 is similar to Summon and Seaway as a thing where you're spending $5 on a $4 but getting some other benefit. Trashing one to get a $5 has basically no decision involved because it's almost always going to be better than buying the $5.

I had plenty of other small thoughts, too lazy right now.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1071 on: March 19, 2018, 09:37:49 pm »
+2

Town/Road: This seems like a pretty clear $5 to me. Playing a Town and then Road is better than Lab! Sure, you have to draw them together for that to happen, but this can even just be a regular Village or a Smithy if you double play the Road. I think all this extra functionality makes up for the early unreliability. The Road gain isn't even mandatory!

I'm not seeing it. A clunky Lab can absolutely be priced at $4 (See Caravan, Advisor.) The Smithy effect is something you usually don't want, because it means you drew a Road without the corresponding Town. Also, the main reason to not gain the Road is if there's a better terminal draw you want to use. If that's the case, wouldn't it, well, kind of suck if the only village on the board is $5 but is just a Vanillage?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1072 on: March 19, 2018, 10:08:45 pm »
+1

Back in the days, I was arguing that Road, by itself, should cost at least 5$ :p
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1073 on: March 19, 2018, 10:35:18 pm »
+1

Town/Road: This seems like a pretty clear $5 to me. Playing a Town and then Road is better than Lab! Sure, you have to draw them together for that to happen, but this can even just be a regular Village or a Smithy if you double play the Road. I think all this extra functionality makes up for the early unreliability. The Road gain isn't even mandatory!

I'm not seeing it. A clunky Lab can absolutely be priced at $4 (See Caravan, Advisor.) The Smithy effect is something you usually don't want, because it means you drew a Road without the corresponding Town. Also, the main reason to not gain the Road is if there's a better terminal draw you want to use. If that's the case, wouldn't it, well, kind of suck if the only village on the board is $5 but is just a Vanillage?

It isn't a clunky Lab though, I can tell you with 100% confidence as a mid-high skill dominion player that I would buy this over Lab about 99% of the time. Like, lining up a Road and Town isn't clunky at all, it's just like any other terminal draw+village engine but much easier because you're getting the terminal draw for free, so you can spend more gains on Villages (that come with free draw!!!).

Okay, think about it this way, if you play Town and then play your Road twice, that's the same net result as playing a Smithy. You increase your handsize by 2 and have a net -1 Actions. So you could build a deck where you buy these instead of Smithies and buy whatever other village is there, just like building a regular Village+Smithy deck but subbing Town+Roads as Smithies. Now you have twice as many Villages in your deck compared to one using Smithies because Town+Road is like a "deconstructed" Smithy, so you're much more likely to find a village in your opening 5 cards and so you're much less likely to have a dud turn. This isn't even considering all the extra utility the Town+Road combination has, like just playing the Road once or playing the same Road 3 or even more times. Because Road isn't just turning your Towns into Labs (or Smithies), it's effectively converting any +1 Action you have into +1 Card. And we haven't yet even considered that the road gain isn't mandatory, so you have the option of using Town as a vanilla village too, which sure by itself would be lacklustre for $5 but that's just another option you have, it's pure upside. This is barely even scratching the surface of how flexible this card is, it has all sorts of interactions with other cards and such. It's actually better than what I've described anyway because that Road is always returning to your hand, so in combination with a Warehouse it's effectively giving you a free +1 Card, even if you don't play it again, there are countless things like that. If you still aren't convinced by this wall I can continue talking about this, there's plenty more to say.

tl;dr I'm right, fight me.

Back in the days, I was arguing that Road, by itself, should cost at least 5$ :p

That seems more reasonable to me, but $5 or $6 in the current form would be okay.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1074 on: March 19, 2018, 10:52:37 pm »
+2

Your math is off?

Okay, think about it this way, if you play Town and then play your Road twice, that's the same net result as playing a Smithy. You increase your handsize by 2 and have a net -1 Actions.

Increases your handsize by four, so it's equivalent to a Royal Blacksmith. Even ignoring the Road that comes back to your hand in the end, that's still increasing your handsize by three, so equivalent to Hunting Grounds.

Quote
Because Road isn't just turning your Towns into Labs (or Smithies), it's effectively converting any +1 Action you have into +1 Card.

Into TWO cards.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1075 on: March 19, 2018, 10:58:04 pm »
+2

Your math is off?

Okay, think about it this way, if you play Town and then play your Road twice, that's the same net result as playing a Smithy. You increase your handsize by 2 and have a net -1 Actions.

Increases your handsize by four, so it's equivalent to a Royal Blacksmith. Even ignoring the Road that comes back to your hand in the end, that's still increasing your handsize by three, so equivalent to Hunting Grounds.

Quote
Because Road isn't just turning your Towns into Labs (or Smithies), it's effectively converting any +1 Action you have into +1 Card.

Into TWO cards.

I was ignoring the Moat returning to hand to make it seem less bonkers than it actually is, but that's actually only relevant to the Lab argument. Playing the Road twice is like playing a Hunting Grounds yeah (with a Road returning to hand too!), because the second play isn't decreasing your handsize like playing 2 separate Moats would. It's late over here and I need sleep, forgive this blunder!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 11:01:44 pm by Gazbag »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1076 on: March 19, 2018, 11:01:58 pm »
+2

No problem :p

Note that even using Road once per village, it's turning each village into a double-Lab, only once you are done converting them, one of the cards in your hand will be a glorified Moat (terminal Road). The more villages you have (and less Roads), the more the double-Lab scenario is relevant.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1077 on: March 19, 2018, 11:08:50 pm »
+1

No problem :p

Note that even using Road once per village, it's turning each village into a double-Lab, only once you are done converting them, one of the cards in your hand will be a glorified Moat (terminal Road). The more villages you have (and less Roads), the more the double-Lab scenario is relevant.

Yeah I was being conservative by saying you're building it like a regular Village Smithy (Hunting Grounds?) deck, you can easily do something much better than that. But it's still too good for $4 even if you're taking a Road every time, that was the point I was trying to make.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1078 on: March 20, 2018, 03:55:48 am »
+1

Town/Road: This seems like a pretty clear $5 to me. Playing a Town and then Road is better than Lab! Sure, you have to draw them together for that to happen, but this can even just be a regular Village or a Smithy if you double play the Road. I think all this extra functionality makes up for the early unreliability. The Road gain isn't even mandatory!

I'm not seeing it. A clunky Lab can absolutely be priced at $4 (See Caravan, Advisor.) The Smithy effect is something you usually don't want, because it means you drew a Road without the corresponding Town. Also, the main reason to not gain the Road is if there's a better terminal draw you want to use. If that's the case, wouldn't it, well, kind of suck if the only village on the board is $5 but is just a Vanillage?

It isn't a clunky Lab though, I can tell you with 100% confidence as a mid-high skill dominion player that I would buy this over Lab about 99% of the time.
+2 Cards is OK as terminal draw but not exciting. Any village and Smithy variant nets 2 extra cards whereas this just nets 1 card. Same as Lab but without the consistency.
Of course you are right that the Moats that return to hand are useful under two conditions, extra village support or discard for benefit.

Doesn't justify a price tag of $5 though. That's like saying that Village+Smithy is as good as two Labs so both cards should cost $5, a statement which would be ignorant of the matching/consistency problem.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1079 on: March 20, 2018, 04:38:15 am »
+1

Sorry for seeing this just today. So, here are some answers:

Sheriff: Seems too strong, I think it needs to cost at least $3. You can get one of these for $4 on the opening and then one for $5 on the second shuffle and that gives you 5 tokens so it's kinda like you've bought a terminal Silver curser for $4 which seems a little too good for me.
I agree that Sheriff might be too strong. However, at five tokens it would run out of Curses much faster than a regular Curser - if uncontested. If contested in 2P, it basically becomes what you say. It's just one of those weird cases where increasing the cost to 3$ breaks the card. For 4$ it's a one-shot Curser and for 5$ clearly too weak for its cost. I'd rather make it a terminal Copper instead.

Farmer: This seems like it is to Journeyman what Oracle is to Catacombs, so I thinm it can get away with being $3.
Might be. I always compared this to Smithy: One card less, great choice. Dropping the price never really occured to me. I feel its choice effect is quite a bit stronger than Journeyman's, but I never played all that much with that one to be honest.

Town/Road: This seems like a pretty clear $5 to me. Playing a Town and then Road is better than Lab! Sure, you have to draw them together for that to happen, but this can even just be a regular Village or a Smithy if you double play the Road. I think all this extra functionality makes up for the early unreliability. The Road gain isn't even mandatory!
The thing with Road is that you have a tradeoff between the card being reliable and having fewer dead Roads in your deck. Considering the fact that every Road you draw after the first is a dead card, I feel that a cost of 5$ is too much. I am however willing to playtest it at that price range. If it turns out to be weak at 5$, I'll say that I prefer a fun powerful card over one that gets barely played. But yeah, not opposed to trying this.

Cliffside Village: This is incredibly powerful, but you probably realise that. Better than Junk Dealer easily, villages are great.
Isn't it worse than Junk Dealer in the early game? Even so, it certainly could stomach being a bit weaker. Considering how simple/bland it is right now, it could maybe do with a bonus for the other players. I assume a coin token on gain is still too much? Alternatively, this could be a high-debt-cost card (haven't gotten one of those, yet), but I generally prefer player interaction.

Necromancer/Zombie: I don't think a kingdom pile based around the Rogue/Graverobber+Knights interaction is a good idea. These game would never end!
I tend to agree. There certainly seems to be something lacking to keep that from happening. I assume this is part of why the official Necromancer never returns cards from the trash. It's not like we need two of these, either way.

Tribunal: I'd be careful about this, the attack seems like it could be very frustrating! I imagine Tribunal big money to be particularly agonising!
Yes, this is another poor one. It was designed with Intrigue in mind, and like several Intrigue attacks, it's really no fun to get hit by.

Minister: It's probably broken, but all the cost reduction cards are so I guess it just join the party!
I'm actually kinda happy with this one, to be honest.

Improve: I think this should just be remodel, not expand. Trashing an Estate to gain a $4 is similar to Summon and Seaway as a thing where you're spending $5 on a $4 but getting some other benefit. Trashing one to get a $5 has basically no decision involved because it's almost always going to be better than buying the $5.
Hum... This is barely tested, so you might be right. One thing is that you can never open with this, so you only can expand Estates later on, an only thrice. In the end you might use it again to turn 5$ s into Provinces, I guess. Either way, I'm not sure it being almost strictly better than buying a 5$ directly is an issue. People don't complain that buying Delve is better than buying Silvers.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 07:43:57 am by Asper »
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1080 on: March 20, 2018, 11:21:42 am »
0

Okay so I realise now that I was purposefully underselling the draw Town+Road gave in my big ol' wall of text because I was assuming that you take Road every time, and generalising that to each double Road play drawing a dead Road. 

Anyway I'm seeing Town/Road being described as a "wonky" or "unreliable" Lab... that's just missing so much you can do with this card. It's missing the fact that this is a village for $4, you know like Walled or Farming village (their additional effects are very marginal, and in a lot decks decks where you want villages are basically just Village). So already, completely ignoring the existence of Road we have a strong card (under my definition of strong anyway). Now look at Wandering Minstrel, you add a little bit of sifting to village and all of a sudden it's the 3rd highest ranked $4 cost, this should be a signal to you for how strong the base village effect is and how easy it is to make a busted village+.

Anyway I outlined above how you can sub Towns in as Smithies in a village/Smithy deck and not only will the deck be more reliable because of an increased village density, it also has more drawing power than the village/Smithy deck, because the Town+2 plays of Road combination draws as much as Hunting Grounds (+a Road returning to hand). Note as well that this deck is always build-able because you use Town+Roads alongside Towns with no Roads. This card is pretty much strictly better than Smithy for this reason in an non-big money deck. But Town+Road is on the board so big money will never happen, so in actual games it's just always a better buy than Smithy.

The unreliable argument just holds no water because Town is self enabling. You get the draw for free so you can spend more gains on villages.

Okay now onto Asper's argument of the tradeoff between reliability and drawing (dead roads decrease drawing). The Road is optional! There is no tradeoff! Even if the road wasn't optional, as I'm saying like a broken record, this still outclasses Smithy in any reasonably competently built deck. The raw power here is so high and cheap that the perceived drawback just doesn't exist, if you had to pay $5 for a plain village if you didn't want the Road then maybe there would be a tradeoff because then you're overpaying for a village, but because you can just pick up a village for $4 there is no tradeoff because that's a good deal anyway.

Anyway onto other things...

Sheriff - I'd totally buy a terminal Silver one-shot curser for $4,  I think that would legit be better than Sea Hag. But this is better than that because you can buy more "fuel" for it later. I actually designed a very similar card to this years ago when Guilds first came out (even used embargo tokens for it!) and I found it to be much stronger than I first anticipated.

Farmer - I think this is weaker sifting than Journeyman actually, this is likely to just reveal 2 Coppers and stop where as Journeyman will skip all those Coppers for you. I'm assuming some kind of low/no trashing engine here as that's where you get the most benefit from the sifting. I have no problem with it at $4, but I'd try at at $3 myself.

Cliffside village is a little worse early yeah, but it isn't a mandatory trash so it never becomes dead itself like JD can and also village.

I think Minister is pretty sweet, that one was more a tongue-in-cheek thing about cost reduction being generally broken.

I think Improve just comes down to whether you want it to be a rules changey thing where you get free Estate trashes with $5's or a Seaway type thing. Turning $5's into Provinces might be a little easy with this too mind.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1081 on: March 20, 2018, 12:13:19 pm »
+1

The trade off he was talking about is that the less Roads you have, the less likely you are to start your turn with one in your hand.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1082 on: March 20, 2018, 12:19:56 pm »
0

The trade off he was talking about is that the less Roads you have, the less likely you are to start your turn with one in your hand.

Yes that's the reliability part, it's more reliability but worse draw vs better draw but less reliability. I'm saying the card is so strong that it doesn't matter, because no matter what you do you're drawing more and being more reliable that other options at this price.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1083 on: March 20, 2018, 02:09:15 pm »
+1

The trade off he was talking about is that the less Roads you have, the less likely you are to start your turn with one in your hand.

Yes that's the reliability part, it's more reliability but worse draw vs better draw but less reliability. I'm saying the card is so strong that it doesn't matter, because no matter what you do you're drawing more and being more reliable that other options at this price.

In all fairness, when you write "There is no tradeoff!" one has to assume that you intend to say there was no tradeoff. Either way, I'm not opposed to testing a 5$ version, as I said. Either either way, I'm also not sure what to think of the fact that you are assuming a deck with no/poor trashing when talking about Farmer, but are willing to assume you would draw Town and Road together often enough to buy it over Lab "99% of the time". I find this hyperbole and "I'm right, fight me" comments unhelpful and to be honest, it's not the kind of discussion I want to have. In fact, as my life has shifted to doing actual games and I'm doing fan cards for fun only by now, I actually prefer leaving them flawed over having that kind of discussion. So yeah, willing to try out and discuss stuff, but no interest in fights.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 02:10:44 pm by Asper »
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1084 on: March 20, 2018, 02:56:02 pm »
+1

The trade off he was talking about is that the less Roads you have, the less likely you are to start your turn with one in your hand.

Yes that's the reliability part, it's more reliability but worse draw vs better draw but less reliability. I'm saying the card is so strong that it doesn't matter, because no matter what you do you're drawing more and being more reliable that other options at this price.

In all fairness, when you write "There is no tradeoff!" one has to assume that you intend to say there was no tradeoff. Either way, I'm not opposed to testing a 5$ version, as I said. Either either way, I'm also not sure what to think of the fact that you are assuming a deck with no/poor trashing when talking about Farmer, but are willing to assume you would draw Town and Road together often enough to buy it over Lab "99% of the time". I find this hyperbole and "I'm right, fight me" comments unhelpful and to be honest, it's not the kind of discussion I want to have. In fact, as my life has shifted to doing actual games and I'm doing fan cards for fun only by now, I actually prefer leaving them flawed over having that kind of discussion. So yeah, willing to try out and discuss stuff, but no interest in fights.

In a trashed down deck the sifting is pretty meaningless, which is why that was a useful assumption. I'm comparing Town/Road to Village/Smithy style decks not Lab, Town/Road is much more consistent for the reasons I outlined, that you end up massively over-villaged because you can easily convert excess +actions to +cards. The lack of tradeoff is to with the fact that Town+Road is easily strong enough to be $5 or $6 and Town on it's own isn't particularly overcosted because village for $4 is only overcosted in a kingdom with a different village variant. I haven't used any hyperbole, I just genuinely think this effect is that good.

The fight me part was not serious at all... I can't really believe I have to explain that, especially considering we've actually interacted quite a lot and tested cards together and you must have at least some idea what my character is like and what my intention is with a comment like that. Sorry if I upset you in any way anyway, but honestly I think I've articulated my thoughts on this pretty clearly and as you said, it's just fan cards, aren't we all just here because we find thinking and talking about them a bit of fun?
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1085 on: March 20, 2018, 03:05:50 pm »
+1

Anyway I outlined above how you can sub Towns in as Smithies in a village/Smithy deck and not only will the deck be more reliable because of an increased village density, it also has more drawing power than the village/Smithy deck, because the Town+2 plays of Road combination draws as much as Hunting Grounds (+a Road returning to hand).
No. You need to spend 2 Actions to play Road twice and then you are out of Actions. Two cards combining into what one terminal draw card is of course a neat feature but doesn't constitute a drawn engine. A draw engine is always nonterminal and Town+Road just does half of what Village+Smithy is which is why the latter is normally preferrable.

The former has four advantages though: first you need only one Road for the whole thing so Town+Road+Town+ same Road again nets 3 cards which is close to the 4 net cards of Village˛+Smithy˛.
Second, you can play the Road, as you neatly pointed out, as last terminal. Third, you can discard it for whatever. Fourth, with extra villages in the Kingdom Road becomes stronger.

So Road is potentially immensely strong or outright broken. But its strength is, as always, Kingdom dependent and I am pretty sure that something like Port+Torturer or Fishing Village+Wharf is still far better than Town+Road (although, as already mentioned, if the respective four cards are all present in the same Kingdom Road becomes a powerhouse due to the presence of a second village).
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1086 on: March 21, 2018, 07:14:36 am »
0

The trade off he was talking about is that the less Roads you have, the less likely you are to start your turn with one in your hand.

Yes that's the reliability part, it's more reliability but worse draw vs better draw but less reliability. I'm saying the card is so strong that it doesn't matter, because no matter what you do you're drawing more and being more reliable that other options at this price.

In all fairness, when you write "There is no tradeoff!" one has to assume that you intend to say there was no tradeoff. Either way, I'm not opposed to testing a 5$ version, as I said. Either either way, I'm also not sure what to think of the fact that you are assuming a deck with no/poor trashing when talking about Farmer, but are willing to assume you would draw Town and Road together often enough to buy it over Lab "99% of the time". I find this hyperbole and "I'm right, fight me" comments unhelpful and to be honest, it's not the kind of discussion I want to have. In fact, as my life has shifted to doing actual games and I'm doing fan cards for fun only by now, I actually prefer leaving them flawed over having that kind of discussion. So yeah, willing to try out and discuss stuff, but no interest in fights.

In a trashed down deck the sifting is pretty meaningless, which is why that was a useful assumption. I'm comparing Town/Road to Village/Smithy style decks not Lab, Town/Road is much more consistent for the reasons I outlined, that you end up massively over-villaged because you can easily convert excess +actions to +cards. The lack of tradeoff is to with the fact that Town+Road is easily strong enough to be $5 or $6 and Town on it's own isn't particularly overcosted because village for $4 is only overcosted in a kingdom with a different village variant. I haven't used any hyperbole, I just genuinely think this effect is that good.

The fight me part was not serious at all... I can't really believe I have to explain that, especially considering we've actually interacted quite a lot and tested cards together and you must have at least some idea what my character is like and what my intention is with a comment like that. Sorry if I upset you in any way anyway, but honestly I think I've articulated my thoughts on this pretty clearly and as you said, it's just fan cards, aren't we all just here because we find thinking and talking about them a bit of fun?

My apologies, I'm being thin-skinned recently. I've had a harder time trusting into people's good will ever since that tristan thing, but I am nonetheless sorry about not giving you the benefit of the doubt, especially considering our interaction in the past. It's not like I don't see most of your points, it's just that I find Road very hard to judge myself, and in the past, Road's strength has been estimated very very differently by different people, so I have been cautious to believe estimates without testing. Personally, I'd probably prefer a version for 4$ that has mandatory gain, but how about we just playtest a 5$ version soon?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1087 on: March 30, 2018, 07:06:29 pm »
+1

Doesn't need the , see Charm.
I wouldn't like to change Investment's coin icon until I know they changed Horn of Plenty, too.

Ha! I feel vindicated. Too bad it doesn't matter anymore...
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1088 on: March 30, 2018, 08:09:52 pm »
0

Doesn't need the , see Charm.
I wouldn't like to change Investment's coin icon until I know they changed Horn of Plenty, too.

Ha! I feel vindicated. Too bad it doesn't matter anymore...

There sure have been a lot of changes recently. *coff coff*
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1089 on: March 30, 2018, 10:41:48 pm »
0

Doesn't need the , see Charm.
I wouldn't like to change Investment's coin icon until I know they changed Horn of Plenty, too.

Ha! I feel vindicated. Too bad it doesn't matter anymore...

You know, as nice as the sleeker, more modest HoP is, it kind of makes Night cards feel even less necessary. Here, have an "Economy" Nocturne retheme with lots of Treasures giving no money:

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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1090 on: March 31, 2018, 12:56:38 am »
+2

Boo. Then we wouldn't have the theme of night cards. It ruins it completely!

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1091 on: March 31, 2018, 01:29:48 am »
+2

And all the tracking issues, of course. There are a lot of ways Treasures can leave play, and “when you gain this, you may play it” has its own similar issues.

But yes, Horn of Plenty would be better as a Night card.
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1092 on: March 31, 2018, 02:44:19 am »
+1

While I don't understand the desire to emulate Night cards via Treasure cards I think it is cool that you tried.
There are very slight mechnical differences though, namely gaining Spyglass during the Action phase and playing it immediately as well as all the interactions with Venture, Ironworks, Ironmonger, Rabbled, Farming Village and Haunted Woods plus whatever I forgot.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1093 on: March 31, 2018, 08:22:06 am »
0

Introducing types for flavor reasons is totally a thing in some games, and rightfully so. Those games are thematic however. Dominion is a lot of great things, but thematic never really was one of them, was it? I understand having Vampires and such in the game is cool, but it's not like you couldn't have had them without the Night type.

I get that allowing to play Treasures when you gain them would have to be restricted to your Buy phase, and I purposefully didn't emilate Monastery and Devil's Workshop because I felt the ways to do those were a lot worse than the actual cards. I can't really think of too many ways to get Treasures out of play which don't also apply to Durations in general, actually. Oh right, Mandarin and Mint. Bonfire also doesn't affect Night cards for order reasons. Are there others?

This is just a proof of concept either way. I have no interest into pushing this on someone. And I guess you can really look at HoP as the problem here, as it introduced (always) worthless Treasures in the first place. The distinction would be much clearer otherwise.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1094 on: March 31, 2018, 12:19:31 pm »
+4

This treasure Raider is much stronger than regular Raider because you can play it before your other treasures. This Night Watchman is also very different because you play it before you buy, which eliminates Night Watchman's ability to topdeck cards you buy when you're drawing your deck. Ghost suffers this problem too, even worse actually, you can't buy a card and then Ghost it if Ghost is a treasure. Devil's Workshop and Monastery just don't work as treasures of course (without very tortured wording at least).

I find calling the Night phase unnecessary a little strange, personally I think it's the best new thing since Events, the cards are super fun! What other purpose could an expansion have then adding more fun cards?
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LostPhoenix

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1095 on: March 31, 2018, 12:45:07 pm »
+2

Yes, Dominion has always been lacking in theme, but that doesn't mean we should give up on the idea.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1096 on: April 01, 2018, 03:20:08 am »
+1

Along the same lines, Masterpiece and Cache could easily be replaced with Events, and Quarry an Event costing $P (which would also fit Alchemy thematically). Exorcist too.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1097 on: April 01, 2018, 07:11:07 am »
+1

Along the same lines, Masterpiece and Cache could easily be replaced with Events, and Quarry an Event costing $P (which would also fit Alchemy thematically). Exorcist too.

While that's true, this is the other way around. Masterpiece, Cache and Quarry all came before Events were introduced. The Night cards all came after Horn of Plenty. If Treasures worth 0 weren't a thing, I never would have suggested it to be a thing over Night cards. It's not even like I suggest it now. That would be too late, wouldn't it. I just felt like trying myself at something fun.

I see that some of the cards I mocked up actually behave very different than their Night original, and for Ghost at least I can see that the change harms the card. That wasn't intended. Originally I just mocked up a few of them and then decided to do more on the way. For the others (except perhaps Raider, which I haven't played with enough) I feel the differences are no real issue. Sure, it's not exactly, totally 100% identical, but that's not the point either way.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 07:12:38 am by Asper »
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somekindoftony

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1098 on: April 06, 2018, 08:36:51 pm »
+1

So much to comment on but I mostly just want to say how much I love 'Well'. It's a reverse swindler, a fools gold enabler (trash those estates and use those buys) and a soft counter to curses.
You can even turn surplus Wells into silver if you need to.
A lot of cards here (meaning on this forum not amongst these cards) seem a little high on the power curve but Well is the sort of card that plays a role in many kingdoms without overpowering.  Nice one.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 01:25:54 am by somekindoftony »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1099 on: May 07, 2018, 05:57:25 am »
+1

I decided to add an interactive clause to Mountain (er, I mean Cliffside) Village to have it be better balanced. My considerations were giving the other players a coin token on gain (much too strong) or letting them trash a card on gain (already has been there). Also I thought about allowing them to gain a cheaper card (reverse Border Village) or allowing to discard cards to draw cards (either on gain or play, but on play seemed too slow, also it was there already). And then I thought about allowing them to gain a Copper in hand, which they'll probably just use to buy another copy, trashing the Copper later... Maybe allow them to discard two cards to put a Silver in hand on gain? That bonus combos much more poorly with other Mountain (Cliffside!) Villages, as you can sift junk away and Silver isn't the worst card ever to have in your deck. Only problem is it kind of was there already, but it has a nice theme.

Any ideas? Is there one you guys like?
Personally I like the Silver one and the gaining of cheaper cards most right now, although both have some special implications I'm not sure I like that much...
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 03:14:01 pm by Asper »
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1100 on: May 07, 2018, 01:52:39 pm »
+1

Was going to comment, but can’t seem to find Mountain village in the OP, what does it currently do?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1101 on: May 07, 2018, 02:56:07 pm »
0

Was going to comment, but can’t seem to find Mountain village in the OP, what does it currently do?

He he ^^
I don't know what it is today... First I confuse Outpost with Lookout, and now I'm confusing my own Cliffside Village with a card that probably somebody else made... ;D

Cliffside Village is a Village for 5$ that also allows you to trash a card. Sorry for this. I forgot my own card name ^^'

Shows that I haven't played Dominion in ages.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1102 on: May 08, 2018, 11:48:50 am »
+1

Was going to comment, but can’t seem to find Mountain village in the OP, what does it currently do?

He he ^^
I don't know what it is today... First I confuse Outpost with Lookout, and now I'm confusing my own Cliffside Village with a card that probably somebody else made... ;D

Cliffside Village is a Village for 5$ that also allows you to trash a card. Sorry for this. I forgot my own card name ^^'

Shows that I haven't played Dominion in ages.

It's much worse when you do this while playing a game of Dominion!

So I looked back to when you first posted Cliffside Village (btw I love the idea of people throwing things off a cliff as trashing) it didn't seem to get much feedback apart from that it was "boring" (Simple? Boring? Depends on how you look at it?) I did notice that you proposed this as a potential fix:
Cliffside Village, 5$, Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one:
+1 Action;
Trash a card from your hand
Did you ever try this? I understand that it somewhat eliminates the charm of how simple the original is and on on-gain penalty would still preserve the simple on-play effect but it does seem like a fairly appealing change to me. With this version you'd have to be more careful about adding terminals to your deck early if you're planning on Cliffside being your only source of +Action so it makes for more interesting decisions? Or it forces you to add other Villages to your deck so you're not spending those gains on other cards like you could if you were using the original version, if that makes any sense?

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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1103 on: May 09, 2018, 11:13:44 am »
+1

Hi Gazbag,

I never tried it, although now that you mention it it seems like a fine fix. It seems more bland than an on-gain bonus at first glance, but probably leads to interesting decisions still. (EDIT: Actually probably more interesting than when-gain).
That said, I will test it against some on-gain options simply because I like player interaction and positive interaction between players. It speeds the game up and suits the multiplayer IRL games that my (recently rare) Dominion sessions usually are.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 11:15:20 am by Asper »
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1104 on: May 09, 2018, 02:03:04 pm »
+1

Hey!
That sounds like a fair assessment, it's kind of hard to say which on-gain looks like the best fit without playing any games with them. I do usually prefer an on-gain drawback to an on-play one though. I'd be up for some testing games in about a month or so when I'm not quite so busy with things if you're interested.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1105 on: May 09, 2018, 04:41:09 pm »
+1

I decided to add an interactive clause to Mountain (er, I mean Cliffside) Village to have it be better balanced. My considerations were giving the other players a coin token on gain (much too strong) or letting them trash a card on gain (already has been there). Also I thought about allowing them to gain a cheaper card (reverse Border Village) or allowing to discard cards to draw cards (either on gain or play, but on play seemed too slow, also it was there already). And then I thought about allowing them to gain a Copper in hand, which they'll probably just use to buy another copy, trashing the Copper later... Maybe allow them to discard two cards to put a Silver in hand on gain? That bonus combos much more poorly with other Mountain (Cliffside!) Villages, as you can sift junk away and Silver isn't the worst card ever to have in your deck. Only problem is it kind of was there already, but it has a nice theme.

Any ideas? Is there one you guys like?
Personally I like the Silver one and the gaining of cheaper cards most right now, although both have some special implications I'm not sure I like that much...

I think trashing a card is too good for others. Gaining a silver to hand, discarding two cards, is arguably better than Explorer early on, since you only end up with one less card in hand than with Explorer, but it doesn’t cost an Action. I don’t think the Copper one would ever be taken, aside from weird boards. A free 4$ of their choice also seems like too much, maybe if they had to discard two cards for it. Is Cliffside village really *that* strong at 5$?

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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1106 on: May 09, 2018, 05:05:57 pm »
+1

Is Cliffside village really *that* strong at 5$?
I think it is. At the first glance Junk Dealer looks stronger: Peddler is better than Village, especially when you trash early and run into economy problems. But in the later part of the game you might need a Village more and unlike Junk Dealer Cliffside Village can still be played when you are perfectly thin. Something that is of similar strength as Junk Dealer is definitely a powerhouse. Whether it warrants a nerf is a different question.

One simple Nocturnish (Blessed Village / Fool) idea would be: When you gain this, discard the top Boon. Each other player may (discard a card to) receive that Boon.
There is a 1/6 chance this does nothing (Field, Forest) and Sky is also not the greatest Boon to get when it is not your turn.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1107 on: May 10, 2018, 04:29:20 am »
0

Is Cliffside village really *that* strong at 5$?
I think it is. At the first glance Junk Dealer looks stronger: Peddler is better than Village, especially when you trash early and run into economy problems. But in the later part of the game you might need a Village more and unlike Junk Dealer Cliffside Village can still be played when you are perfectly thin. Something that is of similar strength as Junk Dealer is definitely a powerhouse. Whether it warrants a nerf is a different question.

One simple Nocturnish (Blessed Village / Fool) idea would be: When you gain this, discard the top Boon. Each other player may (discard a card to) receive that Boon.
There is a 1/6 chance this does nothing (Field, Forest) and Sky is also not the greatest Boon to get when it is not your turn.

I considered Boons for a brief time, but I really don't like them. Thanks for the suggestion, though.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1108 on: May 10, 2018, 04:40:04 am »
0

I decided to add an interactive clause to Mountain (er, I mean Cliffside) Village to have it be better balanced. My considerations were giving the other players a coin token on gain (much too strong) or letting them trash a card on gain (already has been there). Also I thought about allowing them to gain a cheaper card (reverse Border Village) or allowing to discard cards to draw cards (either on gain or play, but on play seemed too slow, also it was there already). And then I thought about allowing them to gain a Copper in hand, which they'll probably just use to buy another copy, trashing the Copper later... Maybe allow them to discard two cards to put a Silver in hand on gain? That bonus combos much more poorly with other Mountain (Cliffside!) Villages, as you can sift junk away and Silver isn't the worst card ever to have in your deck. Only problem is it kind of was there already, but it has a nice theme.

Any ideas? Is there one you guys like?
Personally I like the Silver one and the gaining of cheaper cards most right now, although both have some special implications I'm not sure I like that much...

I think trashing a card is too good for others. Gaining a silver to hand, discarding two cards, is arguably better than Explorer early on, since you only end up with one less card in hand than with Explorer, but it doesn’t cost an Action. I don’t think the Copper one would ever be taken, aside from weird boards. A free 4$ of their choice also seems like too much, maybe if they had to discard two cards for it. Is Cliffside village really *that* strong at 5$?

Hum, I kind of assumed everyone with 4$ in hand would take the Copper in hand. After all, it's easy to get rid of it again once you have that Cliffside Village.

Personally I originally thought it was fine - after all unlike Junk Dealer, the additional Action isn't all that valuable early on. Gazbag insists it's too good. He's a better player than me and I decided that nerfing it a tiny bit couldn't hurt it enough to make it actively bad, while also potentially making it less bland. Two birds with one stone, eh? Unless you prefer that simple elegance. Tbh I believe a Cliffside Village could just as well stay as it is in the respect that it creates interesting strategies even if it is OP strong. I mean, it enables great engines, but doesn't do that much itself. But a little extra doesn't hurt and possibly makes it more fun for people who like things slightly more exciting and/or even.

Hey!
That sounds like a fair assessment, it's kind of hard to say which on-gain looks like the best fit without playing any games with them. I do usually prefer an on-gain drawback to an on-play one though. I'd be up for some testing games in about a month or so when I'm not quite so busy with things if you're interested.
Cool, I'm looking forward to it  :D
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1109 on: May 10, 2018, 01:43:43 pm »
+1

I think Clifftop Village is in a position where it could be quite a bit weaker and it would still be strong. I do think it can stand to be this powerful though, as a trashing+Village card it'll never dominate in a scripted way like e.g. Rebuild can, it's just a very efficient card imo. But some kind of nerf should make the game play more diverse and fun I think.

I don't think there's much disagreement about it being a strong card, but maybe it's also worth mentioning that trashing and village are quite synergistic which I do think is quite significant here.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1110 on: May 10, 2018, 02:24:25 pm »
+1

The problem is that you rarely want to pay 5$ for your villages. So the first two or so are really good buys, but afterwards you are paying a lot to enable your engine, assuming there are no other villages around.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1111 on: May 10, 2018, 02:30:55 pm »
+2

The problem is that you rarely want to pay 5$ for your villages. So the first two or so are really good buys, but afterwards you are paying a lot to enable your engine, assuming there are no other villages around.

That's a big assumption, though. If there are other villages around, Clifftop Village is a no-brainer, since it's a cantrip trasher that also functions as a village, and then remains a village afterward. Junk Dealer doesn't turn into a Peddler once you're done with it, and it's one of the strongest $5 cards in the game.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1112 on: May 10, 2018, 02:55:28 pm »
+1

Yes and you have absolutely no reason to buy Junk Dealer when you're done with it, so even though $5 for a Village is overpriced it's still better than nothing.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1113 on: May 10, 2018, 03:59:30 pm »
+2

The problem is that you rarely want to pay 5$ for your villages. So the first two or so are really good buys, but afterwards you are paying a lot to enable your engine, assuming there are no other villages around.

That's a big assumption, though. If there are other villages around, Clifftop Village is a no-brainer, since it's a cantrip trasher that also functions as a village, and then remains a village afterward. Junk Dealer doesn't turn into a Peddler once you're done with it, and it's one of the strongest $5 cards in the game.

The difference is that the village part (of Cliffsde) is doing nothing at the beginning of the game, while the Peddler part (of Junk Dealer) is doing something. At the beginning of the game, Cliffside village is just a barely better 5$ ratcatcher.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not arguing that Cliffside shouldn’t cost 5$, I am arguing that I don’t think it needs an extra cost/disadvantage on gain.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1114 on: May 12, 2018, 04:37:22 am »
+1

To me, it's like this: I mostly believe that Cliffside Village is fine as is. However, some people think it's too strong and some people think it's too bland. Adding some small (!) Disadvantage is an attempt to please these people.

Alternatively, I could add a setup clause that changes the game in a way which makes Cliffside Village less relevant without harming the card itself. Like "each player puts their plan token on (some base card pile like Gold)." or "each player replaces a starting Estate (or Shelter of their choice) with a Copper."

That would be more gentle as a nerf, simply because it makes getting this trasher slightly less useful (and more accessible). If none of these is satisfying, well, I'm fine with it being Village-Chapel.
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Asper

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Asper's dice game prototype wants YOU!
« Reply #1115 on: May 28, 2018, 10:37:47 am »
0

Cheerio, dear forumites.

As some of you might already know, I have started working on my own board game a few months ago - a silly, light dice game called "Dinner Party".
While I made good progress in the past, right now I'm hitting a wall, and what I need is some honest feedback to help me see where I want to go from here. I'll probably open up a thread on BGG and some other places too (suggestions on how/where to do that are more than welcome), but as you guys have always been incredibly helpful, I hope you won't hold it against me if I ask here, too. So:

If anybody wants to try my neat prototype on Tabletop Simulator and give some feedback (whatever level) in the next weeks, I'd be terribly grateful.

We're not talking weekly hour-long play sessions here, just a quick game or two (play time is about half an hour). Just be aware that, unlike my Dominion cards, this game doesn't have the comfort of sitting in a well-established system where I'm just adding content, so it may be a bit rough around the edges. On the other hand, this is why any level of feedback is very much appreciated, from elaborate analysis to "my guts don't like this".

Sadly, there's not much I can offer in return, but I'm all ears for any suggestions on how I can pay you back. If the game ever becomes more than just a fantasy, I'll make sure to print your names into whatever rules thing comes with it, but that goes without saying IMO.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1116 on: May 28, 2018, 06:15:07 pm »
+1

Any way to get a hold of the rules? I don’t have tabletop simulator. I probably won’t be able to playtest it, but can give some thoughts.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1117 on: May 29, 2018, 02:56:46 am »
0

Any way to get a hold of the rules? I don’t have tabletop simulator. I probably won’t be able to playtest it, but can give some thoughts.

Sure, just let me go over them before I send them to you. Thanks!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1118 on: June 12, 2018, 07:41:51 pm »
+1

Hello Asper!

I was going through some old Dominion notebooks and found this Village concept. I thought I'd share in case you're still looking for possible alternatives for Cliffside Village. It slows the trashing down a bit so you might even be able to price it at $4 Coin.


« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 07:52:51 pm by Kudasai »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1119 on: June 13, 2018, 01:32:27 pm »
0

Hello Asper!

I was going through some old Dominion notebooks and found this Village concept. I thought I'd share in case you're still looking for possible alternatives for Cliffside Village. It slows the trashing down a bit so you might even be able to price it at $4 Coin.



Hey, thanks for the suggestion!  :)
I still haven't figured out a satisfying fix for Cliffside Village, which is largely due to not having the time and energy to work on Dominion fan cards, recently. So I appreciate the input.

Personally I don't really like cards that punish you for not using up all your buys, actions or other resources, though. The main reason for this is that when you have unused resources, you already suffered a disadvantage: You wasted part of your potential. And punishing players for that adds insult to injury in my book, which is why I prefer cards that instead reward you for not using (or perhaps rather "trade") resources.

A second reason for that is that, in general, I think cards with a payoff are more interesting than cards that make you want something you already want harder - as is the case with spending and generating resources effeciently.

Such a tradeoff card would be Gazbag's suggestion of a simple "choose one", but of course there's a wide variety of options here.
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1120 on: June 14, 2018, 06:32:22 am »
+1

I don't percive Kudasai's idea to be about punishing. It is rather a buff of your version that lets you choose between the trashing and the extra Action. Now the the choice is delayed, it comes at the end of your turn when you have potentially drawn more cards and thus have a larger selection of junk to trash from.
I think that it is the best idea to make Cliffside Village feel less vanillaish. I would keep the price of $5 though, $4 would be too cheap for a cantrip trasher and this is better.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1121 on: June 14, 2018, 11:07:29 am »
0

I don't percive Kudasai's idea to be about punishing. It is rather a buff of your version that lets you choose between the trashing and the extra Action. Now the the choice is delayed, it comes at the end of your turn when you have potentially drawn more cards and thus have a larger selection of junk to trash from.
I think that it is the best idea to make Cliffside Village feel less vanillaish. I would keep the price of $5 though, $4 would be too cheap for a cantrip trasher and this is better.

Kudasai's version lets me trash if I did use the Action, though, not when I did not use it. This isn't Walled Village, where you might choose to not use the Action in order to do something else. It's the opposite - it allows you to trash only if you used the Action. Gazbag's suggestion was "Village OR Cantrip trasher". This is "Cantrip OR Village-Trasher". You never want the cantrip, you always want the trashing Village. No decision involved, just an all-or-nothing bet.

Edit: Thinking about it, I believe you just missed the "no" on the card? Sure, a delayed version would work. It's a legitimate option.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 11:19:14 am by Asper »
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1122 on: June 15, 2018, 03:10:51 am »
+1

I don't percive Kudasai's idea to be about punishing. It is rather a buff of your version that lets you choose between the trashing and the extra Action. Now the the choice is delayed, it comes at the end of your turn when you have potentially drawn more cards and thus have a larger selection of junk to trash from.
I think that it is the best idea to make Cliffside Village feel less vanillaish. I would keep the price of $5 though, $4 would be too cheap for a cantrip trasher and this is better.

Kudasai's version lets me trash if I did use the Action, though, not when I did not use it. This isn't Walled Village, where you might choose to not use the Action in order to do something else. It's the opposite - it allows you to trash only if you used the Action. Gazbag's suggestion was "Village OR Cantrip trasher". This is "Cantrip OR Village-Trasher". You never want the cantrip, you always want the trashing Village. No decision involved, just an all-or-nothing bet.

Edit: Thinking about it, I believe you just missed the "no" on the card? Sure, a delayed version would work. It's a legitimate option.
Yeah, I totally read over the no. Now it is a totally different card, a village that rewards you for not doing what you usually want to do (at least in an ordinary draw engine): slightly over-villaging.

I still like it but it doesn't have much to do with Cliffside Village. As I said, I also like the Walled Village version without the no but it is not an automatic nerf: as the trashing comes Sauna-style after the drawing if you are lucky or play well you can use every copy of the card for trashing. Not necessarily but it can happen.

So it depends on whether you wanna nerf Cliffside Village or make it more interesting.
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Kudasai

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1123 on: August 16, 2018, 06:51:34 pm »
+2

100,000+ views!!! Congratulations and thanks for all your support and insight on the forum! I'm sure all of our cards are the better for it.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 11:39:05 pm by Kudasai »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1124 on: August 17, 2018, 11:21:11 pm »
+3

Oh, I didn't notice that. Nice.

I bet half of these views are me re-opening the page to edit my posts for spell-checks 😜

Seriously though, thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. My head is off to you, as they say in France.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1125 on: August 18, 2018, 03:54:53 pm »
+2

Here's some stuff.

Alternate version of Necromancer Werewolf, as the official Werewolf is now a chilled afro dude. I changed Zombie to match Warrior more closely, even though I hate Warrior more than any other card. What's wrong with me?
At the end of the day, there's no real point in bothering with this anyhow anymore.


Alternative version of Lair. With it not being a cantrip anymore, it should be worse with Will 'o Wisp. Only concern is it might also be to bad with the other two now. To boost Ghost, I now give the Spirit in hand.


Experimenting with cards that can be re-used. Speaking of which, I totes re-used my suggestion on Kudasai's Barbarian Village here.

If you find good pictures of a medieval circus or waggon village, I'll gladly replace the current one.

I tried myself at a Hex card for some reason, actually mostly because I felt an Executioner was overdue. It gains Silvers to limit how often it can be used. Sewers will seem familiar to some of you guys. It's just a scheme'd version of Convert.


Bonus morbidity! A... Baron... Death Cart thing of sorts?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 05:02:01 pm by Asper »
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Gubump

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1126 on: August 18, 2018, 04:48:29 pm »
+1

Why is Gallow a Looter? It doesn't have anything to do with Ruins.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1127 on: August 18, 2018, 05:14:46 pm »
+1

Why is Gallow a Looter? It doesn't have anything to do with Ruins.

It makes the card more powerful by putting the Ruins in the supply. buy them with the +Buy and then they're easy fodder.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1128 on: August 18, 2018, 07:24:03 pm »
+1

Why is Gallow a Looter? It doesn't have anything to do with Ruins.

It makes the card more powerful by putting the Ruins in the supply. buy them with the +Buy and then they're easy fodder.

Although this works with the rules; it feels super awkward. I think it should mention ruins somewhere. You could just add “you may gain a ruins” to make it a little more powerful; or replace the +1 buy with that to make it a little weaker.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1129 on: August 18, 2018, 11:14:57 pm »
0

Why is Gallow a Looter? It doesn't have anything to do with Ruins.

It makes the card more powerful by putting the Ruins in the supply. buy them with the +Buy and then they're easy fodder.

Yes, that was the intention. For a while it gave a Ruin to your hand if you couldn't trash a card (and also had +1 Action instead of +1 Buy).

It's pretty meh either way, buy I see why one wouldn't want it to have the type for no obvious reason. Maybe I should just remove it altogether to reduce the redundancy with Death Cart.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 11:16:25 pm by Asper »
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1130 on: August 19, 2018, 08:07:52 am »
+1

Lair could maybe cost $1 now? I'm also not sure it needs to put Ghost in hand, Ghost is a really strong card!

Wagon Village is very similar to Campsite from Ice Age, debt seems like a good fit.

Sewers seems like an effect that would fit better on an Event, yeah like that Research Event! Having to add this do-nothing card to your deck and then also having to put money into it to make it do anything seems terribly weak right?

I don't mind Executioner but given that 5 of the Hexes don't stack I don't think doubling them up is a great choice? I think Explorer+Hex is probably strong enough on its own but I like the idea of an Explorer that can discard the Silver for a benefit. Maybe it should just give out another Hex?

The word is Gallows not Gallow, it's kind of like Coffers. Doesn't this seem pretty similar to Dismantle, but without as many tricks you can do? I don't really get the Death Cart/Baron comparison. The looter type is weird, I didn't even notice it was there because the card has no mention of Ruins, I just didn't look at the type line. Curse is always in the supply as $0 fodder for this anyway?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1131 on: August 19, 2018, 11:33:32 am »
0

Thanks for taking the time to write up something for each of the cards, Gazbag. I very much appreciate it.

Removing the "to hand" from Lair would simplify it quite a bit, so I have nothing against removing it. I kind of feel being able to buy Wisp for 2 might push it a bit too much, though?

Waggon Village I originally designed to gain Coppers to topdeck it, but (strength aside) that had issues with lose-track. Not a real reply, just some additional context.

I admit Sewers feels redundant with Research. Let's kill it.

For Executioner and Gallows (sorry about my low English skills popping up here and thanks for explaining it 🙂), those began with the names and the feeling such cards should be in Dominion.
Executioner's focus was actually the double-hexing when I designed it, and it gives out the Hex once first so you can make an informed decision specifically because some Hexes don't stack. Originally it was just a Hex, then a choose one between +2 coins and the doubling. I made it gain Silvers tolimit how annoying the card can be, considering what a terrible drag games with e.g. Werewolf can be, where those do nothing but multi-hex you and draw more Werewolves... Also Explorer stinks, so no regrets here.

I compared Gallows to Baron because for some time it gave the Gold in hand, and well, it doesn't anymore. I will just remove the Looter type, but even then it's only very mildly interesting.

Any thoughts on Docks? I kinda like it to be honest, but it might be a bit strong, maybe? Originally this was a Smithy for 5, but it seemed like it would make BM too dominant. This still can just gain a Silver each turn, but I hope that'll rarely be a good strategy. It's a fix to the Road problem that again is inspired by some other threads.
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1132 on: August 19, 2018, 01:27:53 pm »
+1

Gallows is better than Dismantle in the opening. The Buy is also often useful. It is worse in two respects: cannot trash Coppers and cannot do Woodcutter tricks (trashing a Gold with Dismantle to gain a $5 and a Gold is like playing a Woodcutter and having to use it to buy a $5).
I ignore the "buy Ruins, Remodel them into Gold" option, that seems too slow to be worthwhile. Being able to transform junk like Curses and Ruins and thus indirectly defend against junkers on the other hand is a neat feature.

So the card is probably dissimilar enough from Dismantle to be worth a try and at the first glance it seems to be quite a bit better.
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Kudasai

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1133 on: August 19, 2018, 02:25:05 pm »
+1

Gallows is better than Dismantle in the opening. The Buy is also often useful. It is worse in two respects: cannot trash Coppers and cannot do Woodcutter tricks (trashing a Gold with Dismantle to gain a $5 and a Gold is like playing a Woodcutter and having to use it to buy a $5).
I ignore the "buy Ruins, Remodel them into Gold" option, that seems too slow to be worthwhile. Being able to transform junk like Curses and Ruins and thus indirectly defend against junkers on the other hand is a neat feature.

So the card is probably dissimilar enough from Dismantle to be worth a try and at the first glance it seems to be quite a bit better.

Gallows - I was thinking the same thing. It's giving you a direct Estate to Gold pathway without any drawbacks. Kind of like getting a Transmute without having to deal with Potions.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the card, but think it's a bit too powerful for $4 Coin. I also agree that the Looter type isn't needed as Curses can work as $0 Coin fodder.

So maybe raise the price or tack on some kind of on-gain penalty? If I may suggest something I've been messing around with:



Could also be used with Ruins to fit your original Looter theme. Not sure how this works. Might even make the card stronger versus weaker. :|

Docks - I think Semi-Durations are great and it's nice to see your take on them. Docks does seems fine. Trading an Action each turn to essentially keep a stop card out of the shuffle. Of course on boards with no Villages, I'm not sure how competitive this will be for that valued Terminal Action space.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 02:35:46 pm by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1134 on: August 19, 2018, 03:46:50 pm »
+1

Docks - I think Semi-Durations are great and it's nice to see your take on them. Docks does seems fine. Trading an Action each turn to essentially keep a stop card out of the shuffle. Of course on boards with no Villages, I'm not sure how competitive this will be for that valued Terminal Action space.
Workshop variants are usually significantly better if there is a splitter in the Kingdom. Of course there are exceptions like gaining some Silvers (and Merchants) or other cheap stuff in hybrid Kingdoms (meaning some good cheap non-terminals without real engine potential).
The consistency of Docks is nice but drawing a particular good card each turn is not that much better than the Action you get from Ironworks. So Docks is probably very good but not overpowered for $4.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1135 on: August 19, 2018, 05:08:24 pm »
0

Wow, I only now noticed that I had written "Werewolf" in the post above... Obviously Lich is a re-name for Necromancer, my OTHER card that became redundant due to Nocturne. My original Werewolf is still a card I like, but there it really hurts to change the name. I don't think I'll do it.
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Kudasai

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1136 on: August 19, 2018, 05:46:13 pm »
+2

Wow, I only now noticed that I had written "Werewolf" in the post above... Obviously Lich is a re-name for Necromancer, my OTHER card that became redundant due to Nocturne. My original Werewolf is still a card I like, but there it really hurts to change the name. I don't think I'll do it.

You could rename it "Teen Wolf". The cooler more in your face Werewolf.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1137 on: August 19, 2018, 06:03:45 pm »
+1

Or lycanthrope.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1138 on: August 19, 2018, 07:17:07 pm »
+1

Or lycanthrope.

That's something I could do. Grumpily. I guess it just bothers me that the name was taken by a card that needs the name so much less than my card does  :'(

Anyhow, plural, non-Looter Gallows:
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kru5h

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1139 on: August 20, 2018, 01:56:05 am »
+1

Asper: I see Jeweler is in your Outtakes. Since it's so similar to my Ox card, I'd like to know what was wrong with it that you had to remove it to your outtakes? Was it just a weak card or was it unfun somehow?

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1140 on: August 20, 2018, 02:36:07 am »
0

Asper: I see Jeweler is in your Outtakes. Since it's so similar to my Ox card, I'd like to know what was wrong with it that you had to remove it to your outtakes? Was it just a weak card or was it unfun somehow?

It just was a card that I designed to do a Treasure-Action card without having to actually combine the types. Back in the day, Treasure-Action just seemed like it would create too many rules issues, and this was intended to be a workaround not to encounter them. As Crown appeared, that intention became pointless, and I deemed the card too uninteresting to keep it.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1141 on: August 20, 2018, 04:25:12 pm »
+1

I like Teen Wolf because it's kind of like Young Witch but with a Silver Bane so it's younger than a Werewolf but older than a Young Wolf, you can't fault that logic.

Gallows just seems kind of uninteresting to me I guess, like I'm quite interested to try some games with Docks but not really this so much.

Wow no respect for Explorer. I think it's actually quite underrated these days, it does some fairly unique things.

Oh I forgot Docks. I like it, Workshop is a good fit for the returning to hand effect because it isn't something you want so many copies of very often, the Smithy version sounds crazy! That you can play it multiple times per shuffle when you aren't drawing deck is pretty huge, I worry a little that you can open this and then playing it every turn starting as early as turn 3.

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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1142 on: August 20, 2018, 05:16:56 pm »
0

Yes, I admit Gallows is pretty lame. Also, it doesn't even interact with Executioner. What's up with that? I made the card because I liked the name, and well, we know that's not the greatest idea. So I'll keep this in my drawer for the future. I'm happier with Executioner because it tries to tackle two things I hate about official Doom cards: Their randomness (you can keep the Silver instead of doubling) and how they endlessly attack (by gaining a stop card). There's probably room for improvement here to make it less obviously stronger than Explorer.

I'm glad you like Docks better. I tried to think of an effect that doesn't win you the game on its own, and well, certainly this is better than a Big Money game where you have 8 cards in hand each turn. Might still be a bit strong, but as long as the cards you want to gain with this are engine pieces, I feel it's fine. Anyhow, it has space enough for a little nerf if needed. For now I'd like to keep it as is just to see how crazy it can go.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 05:18:02 pm by Asper »
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1143 on: August 20, 2018, 07:43:12 pm »
+1

Yes, I admit Gallows is pretty lame.
I don't think so. While it is similar to Dismantle it is unique enough to be worthwhile and probably one of the best one-card trashers against junkers.
The real problem is balance: it is probably too good relative to Dismantle but obviously too weak for $5.
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kru5h

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1144 on: August 20, 2018, 07:57:36 pm »
+1

Personally, I would mildly nerf Docks. But you and I have different styles of cards.

I would make it so that you have to discard a card to put it into your hand so that you don't start every turn with 6 cards, but that's just me.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1145 on: August 20, 2018, 08:01:54 pm »
0

Yes, I admit Gallows is pretty lame.
I don't think so. While it is similar to Dismantle it is unique enough to be worthwhile and probably one of the best one-card trashers against junkers.
The real problem is balance: it is probably too good relative to Dismantle but obviously too weak for $5.

I could always remove the +Buy.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1146 on: August 21, 2018, 12:33:04 pm »
+1

Yes, I admit Gallows is pretty lame.
I don't think so. While it is similar to Dismantle it is unique enough to be worthwhile and probably one of the best one-card trashers against junkers.
The real problem is balance: it is probably too good relative to Dismantle but obviously too weak for $5.

I could always remove the +Buy.

I don't think this is necessary, it would just make the card more boring. I think Spice Merchant vs Moneylender is a pretty good example of something like this. Spice Merchant is of course much stronger than Moneylender and still would be if you removed the +$2 and buy option, but all that would really achieve is making Spice Merchant a less interesting card because that extra option can add some interesting decisions to games with Spicy. 

I also don't think Gallows is really any better than Dismantle anyway, like on boards with both I don't think you're close to picking one over the other a majority of the time.
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1147 on: August 21, 2018, 05:18:12 pm »
+1

I totally disagree. The only advantage of Dismantle is that you can trash Coppers with it (incidentally Dismantle is the worst single-card trasher for Coppers, Trade Route does at least provide an extra Buy). As I already pointed out, its Develop tricks are not that brilliant (Dismantling a Gold into a Gold and a $5 is weaker than playing Woodcutter).
The advantage of Gallows is (a) the extra Buy, (b) that trashing Estates comes without the Copper and (c) that trashing Curses and Ruins yields Gold.

When there are no other trashers Dismantle is arguably superior to the the Copper trashing.
When there are no other trashers and junkers Gallows is likely to be better as Remodeling junk into Gold is a sweet thing in a slog.
When there are better trashers the only argument for Dismantle is Gold. So when better trashers, Dismantle and Gallows are in the Kingdom you will always choose Gallows.
When there are better trashers and junkers the case is even more cleear cut, again Dismantle/Gallows only if you want the Gold and here Gallows has far more "fodder".

So on average Gallows seems to be clearly better.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1148 on: August 21, 2018, 05:45:00 pm »
0

I totally disagree. The only advantage of Dismantle is that you can trash Coppers with it (incidentally Dismantle is the worst single-card trasher for Coppers, Trade Route does at least provide an extra Buy). As I already pointed out, its Develop tricks are not that brilliant (Dismantling a Gold into a Gold and a $5 is weaker than playing Woodcutter).
The advantage of Gallows is (a) the extra Buy, (b) that trashing Estates comes without the Copper and (c) that trashing Curses and Ruins yields Gold.

When there are no other trashers Dismantle is arguably superior to the the Copper trashing.
When there are no other trashers and junkers Gallows is likely to be better as Remodeling junk into Gold is a sweet thing in a slog.
When there are better trashers the only argument for Dismantle is Gold. So when better trashers, Dismantle and Gallows are in the Kingdom you will always choose Gallows.
When there are better trashers and junkers the case is even more cleear cut, again Dismantle/Gallows only if you want the Gold and here Gallows has far more "fodder".

So on average Gallows seems to be clearly better.

You say that Gallows is better than Dismantle if there is another trasher. I'm not sure it is. Assuming a strong trasher like Chapel, one of Gallows' advantages over Dismantle, not having to gain junk, becomes less important, whereas Dismantle's Woodcutter option persists.

Edit: Good point on interestingness, Gazbag.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 05:55:36 pm by Asper »
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1149 on: August 21, 2018, 07:35:45 pm »
+1

Most likely neither card is a good option with Chapel around. Chances of terminal collision after the first shuffle are between 0.3-0.4 (I don't remember the precise number) and all this just for some Gold.
But if you were forced to go for one I doubt that Dismantle as pseudo-Woodcutter is good. It cannot be good if there is another source of Buys or another gainer and an engine that can only gain 1 Province per turn (plus a Duchy if you use Dismantle) seems unlikely to compete with money in a Chapel Kingdom.
And Gallows is just the better money enabler. Even with good trashing tempo matters and those extra Coppers hurt you to some degree.

So I still think that Gallows is most of the time better than Dismantle but not a $5 and as Dismantle is hardly the best $4 Gallows should be fine.

As Develop is a card I am not very good with I could also seriously underestimate the funky Develop tricks of Dismantle, like e.g. Dismantling a Province into a 6VP Fairgrounds and a Gold. OK, on second thought that's not so brilliant, just an extra Gold. So perhaps something like Dismantling Apothecaries into Vineyards.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1150 on: August 21, 2018, 08:53:37 pm »
+1

So as I already mentioned with the Spice/Moneylender thing, assuming that Gallows actually is stronger than Dismantle I don't think that's necessarily a problem. This post is going to be more about Dismantle because, as I guess you kind of admitted you aren't very good with that kind of thing and it shows in what you're saying.

First off this Woodcutter comparison is completely bizarre to me, Dismantle can do a lot more than trash Gold into $5's, you can trash $3s into Gold and a $2, $4's into Gold and a $3 and so on. Like, how exactly is trashing a Potion into a Gold and a Silver the same as Woodcutter? You're also ignoring gain and play too which Woodcutter can't do...

When there are no other trashers Dismantle is arguably superior to the the Copper trashing.
When there are no other trashers and junkers Gallows is likely to be better as Remodeling junk into Gold is a sweet thing in a slog.
When there are better trashers the only argument for Dismantle is Gold. So when better trashers, Dismantle and Gallows are in the Kingdom you will always choose Gallows.
When there are better trashers and junkers the case is even more cleear cut, again Dismantle/Gallows only if you want the Gold and here Gallows has far more "fodder".

So on average Gallows seems to be clearly better.

Asper already pointed some stuff out, but I find these 4 points particularly strange. You seem to be presenting these scenarios as if they're representative of the entire range of kingdoms you see in Dominion or something, but you're ignoring important things like the quality of the draw, how abundant +Actions are, the payload and so on.
 
To expand upon what Asper said, when there are other trashers Dismantle's Copper gain becomes less of an issue and it's much more likely that doing gain and play tricks will be possible. On the Chapel example, gaining Golds is pretty great with Chapel, Chapel trashes so fast that economy can be an issue so a way to jam a bunch of money into the deck is pretty great. Things like Donate+Market Square/Windfall are this idea taken to the extreme. Also Chapel makes gain and play super easy to achieve with a bit of +Action and that makes the Dismantle tricks so much better.
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1151 on: August 21, 2018, 09:55:45 pm »
+1

"Gain mid-turn, draw into it and play" assumes a pretty well-running draw engine that can afford to play gainers mid-turn.
As a draw engine is hard to build without decent trashing I would put this into the "better trashers" category.
Why would you want to buy Dismantle or Gallows in such a draw engine? To downgrade cards and gain a Gold or to just gain a Gold.
You are totally right that in a smoothly running engine the downgrading is a good thing and those extra Coppers don't matter.
My argument is that tempo matters and the only reason to go for Dismantle/Gallows in the opening is to kickstart your economy via some Golds, preferrably without Coppers.

I am obviously convinced that my argument is right but I can see that Dismantle is better in a running engine because of its Develop tricks. So my question is, do you think that it can make sense to buy Dismantle in the middle of the game, when it would, as you seem to argue, be strongest (when you wanna get rid of a dead Potion, dead Sea Hag or all those Silvers from Lucky Coin and get some sweet 3s or 2s)?
Wouldn't it perhaps not just be better to use whatever stuff enabled the engine in the first place, gainers or cards with extra Buys (hence my Woodcutter comparison when you use Dismantle on Gold), to get what engine pieces you want? Because it is the dowgrading that matters, massive Gold is rarely what you want in an engine.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1152 on: August 23, 2018, 05:00:47 am »
+1

On an unrelated note, I kind of feel that Lair sounds a bit too threatening for what it is now. I always liked the idea of having a Swamp in Dominion. Maybe this is the time? Wisp IS the Swamp's gift, after all ;)



Apologies for the weird "2+" cost. The (otherwise fantastic) Dominion card image generator doesn't support overpay (to my knowledge) and I am at work.
Edit: Added the missing "Action" keyword.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 09:04:31 am by Asper »
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Gubump

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1153 on: August 23, 2018, 04:11:01 pm »
+1

If you use the same generator that I do (it's in my sig), then you don't put a space in the cost, and it'll support overpay just fine.
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All of my fan card mockups are credited to Shard of Honor and his Dominion Card Image Generator (the new fork).
If you're having font issues with the generator, click this link and click on the button to request temporary access to the demo server that loads the font.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1154 on: August 23, 2018, 05:28:25 pm »
0

If you use the same generator that I do (it's in my sig), then you don't put a space in the cost, and it'll support overpay just fine.

I'm using Violet's generator, like you do according to your signature. Not putting a space inbetween will render the + huge, making it and the 2 go over the coin's borders.
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Chappy7

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1155 on: August 28, 2018, 06:06:39 pm »
+1

On an unrelated note, I kind of feel that Lair sounds a bit too threatening for what it is now. I always liked the idea of having a Swamp in Dominion. Maybe this is the time? Wisp IS the Swamp's gift, after all ;)



Apologies for the weird "2+" cost. The (otherwise fantastic) Dominion card image generator doesn't support overpay (to my knowledge) and I am at work.
Edit: Added the missing "Action" keyword.

So you'd have to pay 3 for a Will-O-Wisp + Necropolis, 5 for an Imp + Necropolis, and 7 for a Ghost + Necropolis? I'm not sure If I'd do that other than the Will-O-Wisp Option, since WOW picks up Swamps.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1156 on: August 28, 2018, 06:34:19 pm »
+1

I like Swamp a lot. Yeah the Imp option might be weak, but maybe it’s not!

If the whole package is too weak, Swamp could give +$1. Or, to not add an extra line, it could give +3 Actions.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1157 on: August 28, 2018, 06:37:58 pm »
+2

Swamp made me think of when Magic Lamp gave out a Genie instead of 3 Wishes. A Genie was basically just a Wish that wasn’t a one-shot. It was too important to get it early, so it died. Could have been a Spirit for $6*, though! Use Exorcist on Province, get a Genie.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1158 on: August 28, 2018, 07:10:59 pm »
+1

I don't think I ever expanded upon why I think Swamp could cost $1.
If you take the effect of Swamp+Wisp you basically get "+2 Actions look at the top card and draw it if it costs $2 or less." which is weaker than Village. Of course it's different than this for a bunch of reasons, but I don't think they make the effect worth $3.
Imp is similar, $4 for Imp+Necropolis seems much more reasonable than $5.
The only worry here I think is Ghost, maybe $6 is too cheap for Ghost+Necro? I'm not sure.
Also should probably mention that $1 for Necropolis seems reasonable. I guess the only potential worry there is having such a cheap non-terminal card, but it's still a stop-card, so shouldn't be a problem?
I think Swamp is a perfectly buyable card as-is, but could maybe get away with being $1?

I should address this too actually
"Gain mid-turn, draw into it and play" assumes a pretty well-running draw engine that can afford to play gainers mid-turn.
As a draw engine is hard to build without decent trashing I would put this into the "better trashers" category.
Why would you want to buy Dismantle or Gallows in such a draw engine? To downgrade cards and gain a Gold or to just gain a Gold.
You are totally right that in a smoothly running engine the downgrading is a good thing and those extra Coppers don't matter.
My argument is that tempo matters and the only reason to go for Dismantle/Gallows in the opening is to kickstart your economy via some Golds, preferrably without Coppers.

I am obviously convinced that my argument is right but I can see that Dismantle is better in a running engine because of its Develop tricks. So my question is, do you think that it can make sense to buy Dismantle in the middle of the game, when it would, as you seem to argue, be strongest (when you wanna get rid of a dead Potion, dead Sea Hag or all those Silvers from Lucky Coin and get some sweet 3s or 2s)?
Wouldn't it perhaps not just be better to use whatever stuff enabled the engine in the first place, gainers or cards with extra Buys (hence my Woodcutter comparison when you use Dismantle on Gold), to get what engine pieces you want? Because it is the dowgrading that matters, massive Gold is rarely what you want in an engine.

I think for the most part the first paragraph is reasonable enough. I think I disagree on a few specific things, but this is supposed to be about Asper's cards not Dismantle so I don't really want to get into those things.

All I was really trying to say is that Dismantle does a bunch of things that Gallows can't, so saying that Gallows is better doesn't really make sense. You seem to agree now that Dismantle can be better in an engine so I guess that's all I was trying to say.
To address the questions in the second paragraph, yes I think it can make sense to buy Dismantle after the open, although I'd note that Dismantle at its best when you want to open with it and when it's good late too, when Dismantle is good later as well as in the opening it could make sense to open Dismantle over Gallows, even though you'd rather have Gallows on turn 3 and not gain the Copper. The second question is just one of those depends on the board questions, sometimes Dismantle is good and sometimes it isn't. Also I disagree about Gold not being what you want in an engine, buying Gold is inefficient sure, but gaining Gold through other cards effects can be the best way to add payload.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1159 on: August 28, 2018, 07:52:44 pm »
+3

The only worry here I think is Ghost, maybe $6 is too cheap for Ghost+Necro? I'm not sure.
Isn't Ghost better with lots of good Actions in your deck? I mean, Ghost playing a Necropolis would feel pretty bad.
I think Swamp would overall be more interesting at $1.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1160 on: August 29, 2018, 01:16:00 am »
+1

I think Swamp is a perfectly buyable card as-is, but could maybe get away with being $1?

I think Swamp would overall be more interesting at $1.

Well it's a fan card and fan cards can be whatever you want them to be. But I will say that I'm pretty sure Donald X. wouldn't want such a card to cost $1. These days he's really concerned about cards that make piles run out very quickly. And a card that costs $1 which you want a lot of copies of would run out very quickly indeed. And if Swamp were the only village on the board, then you might want as many copies as you could get.

From the Secret History of Nocturne Cards:

Quote from: Donald X.
I tried a terminal that got another copy of itself from your discard pile to your hand. But wait, you say. Yes well. It had no value without a village, and with a village you still didn't just get the combo all the time. It seemed cute for a bit. Then there was a version that gave you something for getting a copy back, so it was a combo without a village.

So this was a terminal Silver that could pull another copy of itself out of the discard pile. It was a real dud for my group at $2. So at my request, we (both Donald X.'s group and mine) tested it at $1. That was a pretty big improvement in terms of power level, but eventually he nixed it due to the pile running out too fast on boards where it was good.

So anyway, Poor House isn't something that just runs out. I think Swamp would be. And then if people are also buying them up for $1, you're not getting to use the fun part of the card. So uh, I'd try to make it worth $2. I mean it doesn't even have to be a village; that's not the interesting part.
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kru5h

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1161 on: August 29, 2018, 01:34:22 am »
+1

Instead of making it cost 1, you could just gain a Spirit costing the amount you overpaid, not "less than the amount you overpaid."

That way it still costs 2, yet you get Spirits for cheaper. It's probably less wordy, too.

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1162 on: August 29, 2018, 01:45:53 am »
+2

Instead of making it cost 1, you could just gain a Spirit costing the amount you overpaid, not "less than the amount you overpaid."

That way it still costs 2, yet you get Spirits for cheaper. It's probably less wordy, too.

That means you can't get Will-o'-Wisps. You may not overpay by $0.

You could say "costing no more than the amount you overpaid" or some such, so that you could get a Wisp by overpaying at least $1. But man, that's a bad idea. It's a bad idea to make players really want to do something that an obscure rule tells them they can't do. And everybody will want to "overpay" by $0 and get a Wisp. So I'd say, stick with "less than the amount you overpaid".
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kru5h

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1163 on: August 29, 2018, 02:37:27 am »
+1

Yeah, I realized how dumb my idea was like an hour later. Oops.

Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1164 on: August 29, 2018, 03:16:46 am »
+1

To address the questions in the second paragraph, yes I think it can make sense to buy Dismantle after the open, although I'd note that Dismantle at its best when you want to open with it and when it's good late too, when Dismantle is good later as well as in the opening it could make sense to open Dismantle over Gallows, even though you'd rather have Gallows on turn 3 and not gain the Copper.
We are talking about a stupid border case anyway. If the Kingdom enables an engine it is very likely that other trashers are present (if there aren't Dismantle has to be the better card due to the ability to trash Coppers!) and in this instance it is unlikely that either Gallows or Dismantle will be bought. So the mid turn gaining of Dismantle is most of the times irrelevant.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1165 on: August 29, 2018, 03:40:27 am »
+1

To address the questions in the second paragraph, yes I think it can make sense to buy Dismantle after the open, although I'd note that Dismantle at its best when you want to open with it and when it's good late too, when Dismantle is good later as well as in the opening it could make sense to open Dismantle over Gallows, even though you'd rather have Gallows on turn 3 and not gain the Copper.
We are talking about a stupid border case anyway. If the Kingdom enables an engine it is very likely that other trashers are present (if there aren't Dismantle has to be the better card due to the ability to trash Coppers!) and in this instance it is unlikely that either Gallows or Dismantle will be bought. So the mid turn gaining of Dismantle is most of the times irrelevant.

An engine with other trashing sounds like one of the better places for Dismantle, if there's no other way of gaining cards.
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1166 on: August 29, 2018, 10:18:15 am »
+1

Sure, as long as we keep in mind that it is not as good as Develop for this job. Arguing that it is only half as good would be an exaggeration but while you can Develop a 4 into a desired 5 and 3 you have to Dismantle the 4 into a 3 and a Gold and then you have to play Dismantle again to net-gain the 5. As you said, the Gold isn't bad (you want some payload, there might be Remodel variants) but not what you often want en masse in an engine and if you do ignore the Gold gaining Dismantle can be viewed to be half as good /quick as Develop (for this particular job, Develop is usually worse at getting rid of Estates and they are equally good at trashing 0s).

So overall Dismantle is a more money-ish card, just like Gallows shines most in a junking-intense slog.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1167 on: August 31, 2018, 07:32:27 am »
+1

Sorry guys, I intended to get back to your analysis and suggestions already...

For Swamp, generally I'd like to balance the card by its effect rather than costing it higher. There are several reasons for this, but the two major ones are, it's kind of sad if Wisp can't pick it up, and also I'd have to still change the base effect to make it good enough for Imp and Ghost. +2 Actions have already been my attempt at making the card a bit less attractive as a spamming target, but of course this also affects the attractiveness with Imp and Ghost. About the +3 Actions option, my biggest reservation here is probably that I already have a card that does that and gives an on-buy effect.

I considered that maybe something Crossroads-ish would be a nice fit, in the sense that a card with a wording like "if this is the first time you play a Swamp this turn" would still work fine with Imp, but make it far less spammable for Will 'o Wisp (and less of a spammable card in general). Perhaps even something like "If you have no other copies of this in play" to make sure Ghost can still double it. These are just ideas, but the main idea is, make it less of a spammable card. It could also be something like "draw up to 7", but sadly that isn't doubled with Ghost, which is sad.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1168 on: September 08, 2018, 01:48:04 pm »
0

So, I thought about Swamp, and maybe the solution to make it less spammable is to just make it terminal. No issue with Ghost, fine with Imp, but as you can't play loads of them easily, it's less trivial with Wisp.

Maybe something as simple as +2 Cards.

Another option would be a one-shot (no "if you do"), because that likes Ghost and Imp. So some options for the top would be:

Trash this. Gain a card costing up to 4$.

I think I favor the terminal solution, though I bet there's something better than +2 Cards to find. Maybe just something like +3 Cards, discard a card. Although sifiting probably favors Wisp again...
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1169 on: September 09, 2018, 06:16:44 am »
+1

Maybe just something like +3 Cards, discard a card. Although sifiting probably favors Wisp again...
While a Smithy that discard one card is probably balanced at $3 it is too good when it comes with a conditional Lab.

I think by the way that the current Necro version is fine. If there are other villages in the Kingdom you'd rather have a Swamp that says +2 Cards and if there aren't using Necropolises as only splitters reduces the strength of engines significantly.
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Qvist

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1170 on: September 09, 2018, 07:43:37 am »
+1

I agree with LFN. Swamp with $1 seems balanced. At $5 you get Swamp + Imp which is like a weaker Bazaar. The best deal is to get WoW + Swamp at $3 as WoW draws Swamp but Swamp is still only a Copper as long as you don't add other cards that need the actions. And if you add those cards WoW gets weaker and Ghost gets better. Also Ghost hitting Swamp is not as bad when Swamp has $1.

Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1171 on: September 09, 2018, 08:23:04 am »
+1

The best deal is to get WoW + Swamp at $3 as WoW draws Swamp but Swamp is still only a Copper
This is false. If Swamp is buffed into Squire then a Wisp that draws into NewSwamp equals a Bazaar.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1172 on: September 09, 2018, 10:03:27 am »
0

I agree with LFN. Swamp with $1 seems balanced. At $5 you get Swamp + Imp which is like a weaker Bazaar. The best deal is to get WoW + Swamp at $3 as WoW draws Swamp but Swamp is still only a Copper as long as you don't add other cards that need the actions. And if you add those cards WoW gets weaker and Ghost gets better. Also Ghost hitting Swamp is not as bad when Swamp has $1.

I don't think you agree with LF, because what he meant was costing it at 1$, not giving it +1$. Giving it a nonterminal +1$ is not really an option, as it makes the card better when it is already good enough and doesn't improve any of its (potential) issues.
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1173 on: September 09, 2018, 03:32:11 pm »
+1

I agree with LFN. Swamp with $1 seems balanced. At $5 you get Swamp + Imp which is like a weaker Bazaar. The best deal is to get WoW + Swamp at $3 as WoW draws Swamp but Swamp is still only a Copper as long as you don't add other cards that need the actions. And if you add those cards WoW gets weaker and Ghost gets better. Also Ghost hitting Swamp is not as bad when Swamp has $1.

I don't think you agree with LF, because what he meant was costing it at 1$, not giving it +1$. Giving it a nonterminal +1$ is not really an option, as it makes the card better when it is already good enough and doesn't improve any of its (potential) issues.
I think it is pretty clear that LFN suggested to convert Swamp into a Squire:

If the whole package is too weak, Swamp could give +$1. Or, to not add an extra line, it could give +3 Actions.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1174 on: September 10, 2018, 02:29:47 am »
0

I agree with LFN. Swamp with $1 seems balanced. At $5 you get Swamp + Imp which is like a weaker Bazaar. The best deal is to get WoW + Swamp at $3 as WoW draws Swamp but Swamp is still only a Copper as long as you don't add other cards that need the actions. And if you add those cards WoW gets weaker and Ghost gets better. Also Ghost hitting Swamp is not as bad when Swamp has $1.

I don't think you agree with LF, because what he meant was costing it at 1$, not giving it +1$. Giving it a nonterminal +1$ is not really an option, as it makes the card better when it is already good enough and doesn't improve any of its (potential) issues.
I think it is pretty clear that LFN suggested to convert Swamp into a Squire:

If the whole package is too weak, Swamp could give +$1. Or, to not add an extra line, it could give +3 Actions.

Wow, yes, I misremembered... Sorry, Qvist. I still don't think I like that option too much. It doesn't seem to me that the card is overly weak right now, and it makes loading up on the even less hard.
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Qvist

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1175 on: September 15, 2018, 06:16:50 am »
+1

I don't think it would be too powerful as I elaborated. Wisp into Swamp is powerful then but how often do you activate it? Loading up on Swamps+Wisps doesn't seem so exciting without adding terminals which themselves reduce the possibility of Wisps activating. The comparism to Squire seems accurate. Current Swamp seems lackluster in comparism to Squire. Just my 2 cents as I don't know much about balancing those cards.

Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1176 on: September 15, 2018, 07:54:55 am »
+1

I don't think it would be too powerful as I elaborated. Wisp into Swamp is powerful then but how often do you activate it? Loading up on Swamps+Wisps doesn't seem so exciting without adding terminals which themselves reduce the possibility of Wisps activating.

Without terminals thrown in the mix the combo ain't a Bazaar but a Peddler. Still a good deal for $3.

Wisp decks via Druid are totally a thing so any card which directly gains Spirits should err on the weak side. You just need some cost reduction to make Swamp become Stonemason level crazy.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1177 on: September 16, 2018, 06:11:59 am »
0

I think the question right now isn't so much strength, it's making the card interesting. Even if the card was perfectly fine strength-wise, if you never ever used it to gain anything but Wisps with it, that stinks. I could just as well limit it to Wisps in that case, and that would be a bummer.
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Umadin

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1178 on: September 24, 2018, 03:31:17 pm »
+1

Some of the images are broken for me 😕  like spell casters and the team cards... also  I notice you have made updated cards along the way - are you updating the original post with whatever you’re considering the best revision to the cards?

This may be the first fan made expansion I am excited to print!
I wish I could get a professional service to do them!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 03:37:44 pm by Umadin »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1179 on: September 25, 2018, 04:15:29 am »
+2

Some of the images are broken for me 😕  like spell casters and the team cards... also  I notice you have made updated cards along the way - are you updating the original post with whatever you’re considering the best revision to the cards?

This may be the first fan made expansion I am excited to print!
I wish I could get a professional service to do them!

Thank you for your kind words 🙂

My support for these cards has been on and off for the last two years or so, given my life shifting away from Dominion. However, I will fix up the OP today when I get home, so it will also include the most recent fixes and additions. I'll post about it when that's done. Hope this will improve things for you 🙂
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1180 on: September 25, 2018, 08:36:32 pm »
+2

Several fixes to the OP:

- Removed TTS Templates for now
- Added all the missing Spellcasters
- Added all the missing Team cards
- Added a missing Season card, Cottage
- Changed Simplicity to be an "Acting Troupe" variant
- Changed Bargain to use "Coffers"
- Added Swamp, Docks, Gallows, Waggon Village, Executioner
- Added a new card, Shrine



I hope this will help give some fun to somebody :)
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1181 on: September 26, 2018, 03:00:10 am »
+1

Shrine is sound but doesn't excite me. After the first shuffle it is "trash 2 cards, buy a $2 if there is a decent one". In the endgame you can discard green for Coins. The key problem IMO is that discarding for benefit and trashing are to some degree substitutes.

I like Cottage, it is a simple and good way to address the $4.5 problem of Fugitive.

I also like that Swamp gains Ghosts to hand now. Far better than the buff suggested by some folks that would havemainly made Wisps better.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1182 on: September 26, 2018, 05:02:56 am »
+1

Shrine is sound but doesn't excite me. After the first shuffle it is "trash 2 cards, buy a $2 if there is a decent one". In the endgame you can discard green for Coins. The key problem IMO is that discarding for benefit and trashing are to some degree substitutes.

And if there are no decent 2$s? Will you really spend several turns in a row doing nothing? What if you have this and a (terminal) Silver in hand? Are you really going to discard it, only to trash two cards and get to 2$ instead of getting to 5$ (perhaps getting to 5$ AND trashing one card)? Another example, how do you feel about Alt VP boards? Or draw-to-X engines?

Personally I believe the fact they are substitutes makes this card more interesting, not less.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 05:04:14 am by Asper »
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1183 on: September 26, 2018, 05:43:36 am »
+1

Shrine is sound but doesn't excite me. After the first shuffle it is "trash 2 cards, buy a $2 if there is a decent one". In the endgame you can discard green for Coins. The key problem IMO is that discarding for benefit and trashing are to some degree substitutes.

And if there are no decent 2$s? Will you really spend several turns in a row doing nothing?
Trashing 2 cards is not doing nothing and early on trashing is most of the times better than spiking.

As I said, the card is objectivally a totally sound design and as you pointed out in some Kingdoms there are even some uses for it during the middlegame. Personally I don't like it though and I think that there is a good reason why no offical card discards for benefit and trashes at the same time.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1184 on: September 26, 2018, 05:44:31 am »
0

Shrine is sound but doesn't excite me. After the first shuffle it is "trash 2 cards, buy a $2 if there is a decent one". In the endgame you can discard green for Coins. The key problem IMO is that discarding for benefit and trashing are to some degree substitutes.

And if there are no decent 2$s? Will you really spend several turns in a row doing nothing?
Trashing 2 cards is not doing nothing and early on trashing is most of the times better than spiking.

As I said, the card is objectivally a totally sound design and as you pointed out in some Kingdoms there are even some uses for it during the middlegame. Personally I don't like it though and I think that there is a good reason why no offical card discards for benefit and trashes at the same time.

Fair enough 🙂
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1185 on: October 04, 2018, 02:07:16 pm »
+1

These are fantastic! I wouldn't be surprised if your spells and/or edicts helped inspire Projects. Also, where do you find all your card art?
And you should maybe rename Heir to Heiress if that's the image you're using.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1186 on: October 04, 2018, 02:13:12 pm »
+1

These are fantastic! I wouldn't be surprised if your spells and/or edicts helped inspire Projects.

I would, because Donald goes out of his way to avoid reading the fan cards forums; specifically to avoid the chance that his ideas might copy other people's.
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Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1187 on: October 04, 2018, 02:40:10 pm »
+2

These are fantastic! I wouldn't be surprised if your spells and/or edicts helped inspire Projects.

I would, because Donald goes out of his way to avoid reading the fan cards forums; specifically to avoid the chance that his ideas might copy other people's.

Oh yeah... Anyway it's still cool how real mechanics are similar to these mechanics by Asper before the real ones were made.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1188 on: October 04, 2018, 03:05:18 pm »
+1

These are fantastic! I wouldn't be surprised if your spells and/or edicts helped inspire Projects.

I would, because Donald goes out of his way to avoid reading the fan cards forums; specifically to avoid the chance that his ideas might copy other people's.

Oh yeah... Anyway it's still cool how real mechanics are similar to these mechanics by Asper before the real ones were made.

Well ACTUALLY, I came up with Edicts. Asper then made his own Edicts. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13605

And I can tell you that no, Donald X. did not use Edicts as an inspiration for Projects. However, once Projects became a thing, I did give him my Edict ideas in case he wanted to make Projects from them. Silos was one of those, in fact.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1189 on: October 04, 2018, 03:10:19 pm »
0

Sorry LastFootNote.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1190 on: October 04, 2018, 03:12:35 pm »
+1

Sorry LastFootNote.

Oh, no apology necessary. Asper did more with Edicts than I ever did, and they're really his baby now. I'm just being That Guy. So it is I who is sorry.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1191 on: October 04, 2018, 04:15:38 pm »
+1

These are fantastic! I wouldn't be surprised if your spells and/or edicts helped inspire Projects.

I would, because Donald goes out of his way to avoid reading the fan cards forums; specifically to avoid the chance that his ideas might copy other people's.

Oh yeah... Anyway it's still cool how real mechanics are similar to these mechanics by Asper before the real ones were made.

Well ACTUALLY, I came up with Edicts. Asper then made his own Edicts. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13605

And I can tell you that no, Donald X. did not use Edicts as an inspiration for Projects. However, once Projects became a thing, I did give him my Edict ideas in case he wanted to make Projects from them. Silos was one of those, in fact.

Not going to pick a fight over this, but I proposed rule changes on standalone sideways cards a whole month before your Edicts thread, and even pointed out this fact in it.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1192 on: October 04, 2018, 04:20:08 pm »
0

These are fantastic! I wouldn't be surprised if your spells and/or edicts helped inspire Projects. Also, where do you find all your card art?
And you should maybe rename Heir to Heiress if that's the image you're using.

Is Heiress really prominently used? I'm not against it. Also, most of the pictures are from deviantart. By searching for the artists credited on the cards you should find several that consistently do great stuff, like e.g. Rhys Griffiths.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1193 on: October 04, 2018, 04:22:17 pm »
0

These are fantastic! I wouldn't be surprised if your spells and/or edicts helped inspire Projects.

I would, because Donald goes out of his way to avoid reading the fan cards forums; specifically to avoid the chance that his ideas might copy other people's.

Oh yeah... Anyway it's still cool how real mechanics are similar to these mechanics by Asper before the real ones were made.

Well ACTUALLY, I came up with Edicts. Asper then made his own Edicts. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13605

And I can tell you that no, Donald X. did not use Edicts as an inspiration for Projects. However, once Projects became a thing, I did give him my Edict ideas in case he wanted to make Projects from them. Silos was one of those, in fact.

Not going to pick a fight over this, but I proposed rule changes on standalone sideways cards a whole month before your Edicts thread, and even pointed out this fact in it.

Oho, sure enough. I guess I just came up with the name "Edicts".

I suppose it's moot anyway, since Donald X. came up with and rejected these sort of straight-up rules for Dominion years before either of us did. I think before Dominion was published, in fact.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1194 on: October 04, 2018, 04:24:20 pm »
0

I suppose it's moot anyway, since Donald X. came up with and rejected these sort of straight-up rules for Dominion years before either of us did. I think before Dominion was published, in fact.

As a matter of fact, this wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1195 on: October 04, 2018, 07:51:40 pm »
+1

Oh, man, over this Edict thing I forgot to say, thank you for the kind words, Fly-Eagles-Fly  :)
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1196 on: October 04, 2018, 11:19:13 pm »
+1

These are fantastic! I wouldn't be surprised if your spells and/or edicts helped inspire Projects. Also, where do you find all your card art?
And you should maybe rename Heir to Heiress if that's the image you're using.

Is Heiress really prominently used? I'm not against it. Also, most of the pictures are from deviantart. By searching for the artists credited on the cards you should find several that consistently do great stuff, like e.g. Rhys Griffiths.
Thanks for the help.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1197 on: October 11, 2018, 05:21:06 pm »
+1

Umm.... Where are the spells?
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1198 on: October 11, 2018, 05:29:34 pm »
+3

I suppose it's moot anyway, since Donald X. came up with and rejected these sort of straight-up rules for Dominion years before either of us did. I think before Dominion was published, in fact.

Never say never.

Guilds was going to be the final expansion, then Adventures came out.
Old sets were never going to be revised to replace bad cards with better ones, until that's exactly what happened.
Fan cards were never going to have an impact on the official game, then a card disappears from LastFootnote's fan set and ends up in Empires as Settlers.
A lot of fan card rules and taboos, based on the secret histories and patterns of existing cards, have later been broken by official cards.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1199 on: October 11, 2018, 08:41:26 pm »
0

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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1200 on: October 11, 2018, 10:10:28 pm »
+1

Thanks. Is there something I'm missing about this, because I can't figure out when you would ever want to buy Glory, except when you have an extra turn from Mission or Haunted Woods or Swamp Hag are in play, and maybe one other thing. It seems like it would hardly ever be wanted.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1201 on: October 12, 2018, 01:54:56 am »
0

Thanks. Is there something I'm missing about this, because I can't figure out when you would ever want to buy Glory, except when you have an extra turn from Mission or Haunted Woods or Swamp Hag are in play, and maybe one other thing. It seems like it would hardly ever be wanted.

It delays the gaining of a Province you already bought to an arbitrary time. As a result, it doesn't clog your deck. Quite often, it's really strong.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1202 on: October 12, 2018, 06:03:28 am »
0

I just realized that on Sanctuary, I wrote "When this is in play", whereas it should be "While this is in play". I will fix this later today if I don't forget. I might actually even change the picture when I'm at it. As pretty as it looks, confusing Sanctuary with Maze seems a bit too easy. Or what do you guys think?
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1203 on: October 12, 2018, 07:14:25 am »
+1

Thanks. Is there something I'm missing about this, because I can't figure out when you would ever want to buy Glory, except when you have an extra turn from Mission or Haunted Woods or Swamp Hag are in play, and maybe one other thing. It seems like it would hardly ever be wanted.

It delays the gaining of a Province you already bought to an arbitrary time. As a result, it doesn't clog your deck. Quite often, it's really strong.
Now I see. Thanks.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1204 on: October 12, 2018, 07:14:58 am »
+1

I just realized that on Sanctuary, I wrote "When this is in play", whereas it should be "While this is in play". I will fix this later today if I don't forget. I might actually even change the picture when I'm at it. As pretty as it looks, confusing Sanctuary with Maze seems a bit too easy. Or what do you guys think?
Yeah, they look very close. But the colors are different enough, maybe.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1205 on: October 12, 2018, 09:00:39 am »
+1

I think they look different enough, but I haven’t played with them.
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Aquila

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1206 on: October 12, 2018, 10:32:44 am »
+1

I just realized that on Sanctuary, I wrote "When this is in play", whereas it should be "While this is in play". I will fix this later today if I don't forget.
Two more things I noticed: Pilgrim takes a Coin token whilst Bargain has +1 Coffers; and Sheriff isn't an Attack, but I would understand if this is intentional as Moats could affect your decision to spend a token.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1207 on: October 12, 2018, 11:25:54 am »
0

I just realized that on Sanctuary, I wrote "When this is in play", whereas it should be "While this is in play". I will fix this later today if I don't forget.
Two more things I noticed: Pilgrim takes a Coin token whilst Bargain has +1 Coffers; and Sheriff isn't an Attack, but I would understand if this is intentional as Moats could affect your decision to spend a token.

Argh, both of these need to be corrected, too. Of course people will be sad if they spend Sheriff tokens in vain, but such is the case when they spend an Action on Sea Hag. Certainly not intended. Thanks for pointing this out! :)
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1208 on: October 12, 2018, 11:50:42 am »
+1

Is Sultan fairly new, or am I just seeing it now?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1209 on: October 12, 2018, 12:41:56 pm »
+1

Is Sultan fairly new, or am I just seeing it now?
It's actually very old and kinda keeps jittering between being an outtake and a "real" card. I added it to the OP because I felt people interested in my cards should decide themselves. But it's one of the cards I'm least sure about.
The same applies to Meadow, by the way. I know some people like it, but LastFootnote for instance mentioned a strong dislike. Again, I think it's decent enough to be something you should judge yourself.
Another one that moved back and forth occasionally is Iron Maiden, but there I think I did the right thing by keeping it in the outtakes section. It's just slow and unreliable, kind of like a cheaper, more malicious Tribute. The pun's not worth it.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1210 on: October 12, 2018, 07:20:40 pm »
+1

I fixed up Sheriff, Pilgrim and Sanctuary, and altered the part of the image you see in both Sanctuary and Maze. I think it does both of them a good service. Maze's image's focus shifts from the castle to the actual maze, and Sanctuary looks more like a save haven with the dark surrounding it. Well, at least that's what I think. Most importantly, the different composition makes them harder to confuse.

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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1211 on: October 12, 2018, 09:09:33 pm »
+1

Not only is it less likely to confuse the two now, I like the new versions of Sanctuary and Maze better.
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1212 on: October 12, 2018, 11:38:44 pm »
+1

I don’t notice much difference for Sanctuary, but I agree with Eagles that Maze looks a lot better now that the focus of the image is on the maze itself.
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Kudasai

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1213 on: October 13, 2018, 03:56:07 am »
+1

Do you think Road would benefit from having some text to prevent infinite draw when combined with Champion? Something like:


+2 Cards
Return this to your hand.
-----------------------------------
While this is in play, you may not gain Actions (Actions, not Action cards).
(This is not in the Supply)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 03:57:15 am by Kudasai »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1214 on: October 13, 2018, 07:25:35 am »
0

Do you think Road would benefit from having some text to prevent infinite draw when combined with Champion? Something like:


+2 Cards
Return this to your hand.
-----------------------------------
While this is in play, you may not gain Actions (Actions, not Action cards).
(This is not in the Supply)

I appreciate your suggestion, but I'd like to keep Road as is.

Fixes to Road have been proposed a few times in the past, but up to now, I never really felt the urge to change Road. Having it be a non-supply card was LastFootnote's suggestion, and I'm glad it is, because it fixes several issues. Now the only card it seems OP with is Champion. Problem is, I hate Champion, or rather, I hate the Page line. Warrior is easily one of the worst cards in Dominion for me, and as a result, if Page and Road couldn't both be in Dominion for some reason, I know what I'd choose.

But in honesty, how bad is it that Champion/Road allows you to play an arbitrary number of Roads? It only comes up once in a blue moon, and even then, all it does is draw your deck. In a real-life game, just reveal the Road and put your deck in your hand. Faster than Scrying Pool, that's what it is. Of course there may be discard-for-benefit, and man, it's still no worse than Scrying Pool - again in one rare setup. "But what if the person just keeps playing the same Road again and again?" is a legitimate question. In most Champion/Road games, it does nothing. It's not like the game keeps me from revealing Secret Chamber endlessly until you jump over the table to kill me, so that's that.

Of course, there are theoretical setups where a player might want to play Road again and again for a benefit. Actually, I can only think of one, which requires Town, Page, Tournament and Travelling Fair. Each Road you play now generates one surplus Action, each such Action generates +1 coin, and coins also produce buys. So, if you now get a Road in hand, you can empty the supply. And then, you can reveal the Road, say "I empty the supply" and go on to the next game. Or if you insist to play it out, you draw your deck, put Road on the table until the cash you'll get from Diadem outbuys all the cards you need, and then go on to the next game. Again you could again argue that somebody might want to produce even more coins, and again, those don't achieve anything you don't have already, so it's the same thing as Secret Chamber to me. And if all stars align, you could even include an Event like Wedding, where infinite coins are infinite VP, and then the VP are what the coins are, they stop doing anything the ones you already have don't do, so it becomes pointless to keep on getting them. Again, Secret Chamber.

As a sign of my good will, I hereby promise, if this ever actually comes up in random setup, and the game actually ends on a Road exploit instead of by somebody winning before this can be set up, and that player actually insists on ammassing a surplus of more than, let's say, 1000 VP, I will compensate all people involved except that time-stealing jerk by sending them free pizza in a flavor of their choice. This offer expires October 13th, 4018.
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1215 on: October 13, 2018, 09:32:12 am »
+1

I agree that one broken combo should not make one change a card that is otherwise totally sound.
If you personally never player with Page it doesn't matter anyway.

I also don't think that the combo is necesarily that brilliant. When you go for Page you might want some villages to go smoothly over the Warrior/Hero steps but you want less than usual.
So Town/Road is not that good but in order to kick of your Champion-Road engine you need a decent density of Roads in your deck. It is after all kind of pointless to only draw your deck in some turns.
This is why I think it is feasible to imagine a Kingdom in which the Town/Road player loses to somebody who went for a Smithy variant instead, to imagine a Kingdom in which Road is not the dominant strategy.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1216 on: October 13, 2018, 09:44:55 am »
0

I don’t notice much difference for Sanctuary, but I agree with Eagles that Maze looks a lot better now that the focus of the image is on the maze itself.

Thanks :)
Sanctuary just went a bit further away from the building in the middle, so you see more of its surroundings.
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Kudasai

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1217 on: October 13, 2018, 03:28:21 pm »
+2

Of course, there are theoretical setups where a player might want to play Road again and again for a benefit. Actually, I can only think of one, which requires Town, Page, Tournament and Travelling Fair. Each Road you play now generates one surplus Action, each such Action generates +1 coin, and coins also produce buys. So, if you now get a Road in hand, you can empty the supply. And then, you can reveal the Road, say "I empty the supply" and go on to the next game. Or if you insist to play it out, you draw your deck, put Road on the table until the cash you'll get from Diadem outbuys all the cards you need, and then go on to the next game. Again you could again argue that somebody might want to produce even more coins, and again, those don't achieve anything you don't have already, so it's the same thing as Secret Chamber to me. And if all stars align, you could even include an Event like Wedding, where infinite coins are infinite VP, and then the VP are what the coins are, they stop doing anything the ones you already have don't do, so it becomes pointless to keep on getting them. Again, Secret Chamber.

This actually would need a +1 Action token on Road to work and as Road is not in the Supply you're in the clear!

As a sign of my good will, I hereby promise, if this ever actually comes up in random setup, and the game actually ends on a Road exploit instead of by somebody winning before this can be set up, and that player actually insists on ammassing a surplus of more than, let's say, 1000 VP, I will compensate all people involved except that time-stealing jerk by sending them free pizza in a flavor of their choice. This offer expires October 13th, 4018.

I vote to have this added to Road's text. You can clearly shrink this down though.

"In games using this, if this ruins your game, +1 Pizza"

I agree that one broken combo should not make one change a card that is otherwise totally sound.
If you personally never player with Page it doesn't matter anyway.

I also don't think that the combo is necesarily that brilliant. When you go for Page you might want some villages to go smoothly over the Warrior/Hero steps but you want less than usual.
So Town/Road is not that good but in order to kick of your Champion-Road engine you need a decent density of Roads in your deck. It is after all kind of pointless to only draw your deck in some turns.
This is why I think it is feasible to imagine a Kingdom in which the Town/Road player loses to somebody who went for a Smithy variant instead, to imagine a Kingdom in which Road is not the dominant strategy.

I agree. There are still a lot of tough play choices prior to getting Champion in play.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 03:30:24 pm by Kudasai »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1218 on: October 13, 2018, 04:17:51 pm »
+7

Of course, there are theoretical setups where a player might want to play Road again and again for a benefit. Actually, I can only think of one, which requires Town, Page, Tournament and Travelling Fair. Each Road you play now generates one surplus Action, each such Action generates +1 coin, and coins also produce buys. So, if you now get a Road in hand, you can empty the supply. And then, you can reveal the Road, say "I empty the supply" and go on to the next game. Or if you insist to play it out, you draw your deck, put Road on the table until the cash you'll get from Diadem outbuys all the cards you need, and then go on to the next game. Again you could again argue that somebody might want to produce even more coins, and again, those don't achieve anything you don't have already, so it's the same thing as Secret Chamber to me. And if all stars align, you could even include an Event like Wedding, where infinite coins are infinite VP, and then the VP are what the coins are, they stop doing anything the ones you already have don't do, so it becomes pointless to keep on getting them. Again, Secret Chamber.

This actually would need a +1 Action token on Road to work and as Road is not in the Supply you're in the clear!

Nah, that actually does work. "All" you need is a second Champion in play.

As a sign of my good will, I hereby promise, if this ever actually comes up in random setup, and the game actually ends on a Road exploit instead of by somebody winning before this can be set up, and that player actually insists on ammassing a surplus of more than, let's say, 1000 VP, I will compensate all people involved except that time-stealing jerk by sending them free pizza in a flavor of their choice. This offer expires October 13th, 4018.

I vote to have this added to Road's text. You can clearly shrink this down though.

"In games using this, if this ruins your game, +1 Pizza"



Done.
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Kudasai

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1219 on: October 13, 2018, 06:36:46 pm »
+2

Of course, there are theoretical setups where a player might want to play Road again and again for a benefit. Actually, I can only think of one, which requires Town, Page, Tournament and Travelling Fair. Each Road you play now generates one surplus Action, each such Action generates +1 coin, and coins also produce buys. So, if you now get a Road in hand, you can empty the supply. And then, you can reveal the Road, say "I empty the supply" and go on to the next game. Or if you insist to play it out, you draw your deck, put Road on the table until the cash you'll get from Diadem outbuys all the cards you need, and then go on to the next game. Again you could again argue that somebody might want to produce even more coins, and again, those don't achieve anything you don't have already, so it's the same thing as Secret Chamber to me. And if all stars align, you could even include an Event like Wedding, where infinite coins are infinite VP, and then the VP are what the coins are, they stop doing anything the ones you already have don't do, so it becomes pointless to keep on getting them. Again, Secret Chamber.

This actually would need a +1 Action token on Road to work and as Road is not in the Supply you're in the clear!

Nah, that actually does work. "All" you need is a second Champion in play.

I never would have thought to get two Champions in play. My mind is blown!

As a sign of my good will, I hereby promise, if this ever actually comes up in random setup, and the game actually ends on a Road exploit instead of by somebody winning before this can be set up, and that player actually insists on ammassing a surplus of more than, let's say, 1000 VP, I will compensate all people involved except that time-stealing jerk by sending them free pizza in a flavor of their choice. This offer expires October 13th, 4018.

I vote to have this added to Road's text. You can clearly shrink this down though.

"In games using this, if this ruins your game, +1 Pizza"



I think this officially settles any issues with Road. :)
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1220 on: October 13, 2018, 07:35:29 pm »
+1

Of course, there are theoretical setups where a player might want to play Road again and again for a benefit. Actually, I can only think of one, which requires Town, Page, Tournament and Travelling Fair. Each Road you play now generates one surplus Action, each such Action generates +1 coin, and coins also produce buys. So, if you now get a Road in hand, you can empty the supply.

What am I missing here? Assuming that Tournament is only mentioned as a way to get Diadem.. how does playing Road increase your available actions? Wouldn't it just give you 1 each time you play it, while requiring spending that 1 to play it again?

*Edit* Saw the other post; ok you could get a second Champion in play. Cool.

I agree with your points a a whole. Ever since Villa was a thing, Dominion has been able to go infinite. And in practice, there's no difference between infinite and "enough" anyway... KC+Bridge lets you buy all Provinces at once if you get a good enough hand.

If Page and Town are on the same board together, then hey, there's a combo that probably is good enough to go for... but it's not like an instant free win; it's still a race to get there first.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 07:37:45 pm by GendoIkari »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1221 on: October 13, 2018, 09:24:03 pm »
0

Of course, there are theoretical setups where a player might want to play Road again and again for a benefit. Actually, I can only think of one, which requires Town, Page, Tournament and Travelling Fair. Each Road you play now generates one surplus Action, each such Action generates +1 coin, and coins also produce buys. So, if you now get a Road in hand, you can empty the supply.

What am I missing here? Assuming that Tournament is only mentioned as a way to get Diadem.. how does playing Road increase your available actions? Wouldn't it just give you 1 each time you play it, while requiring spending that 1 to play it again?

*Edit* Saw the other post; ok you could get a second Champion in play. Cool.

I agree with your points a a whole. Ever since Villa was a thing, Dominion has been able to go infinite. And in practice, there's no difference between infinite and "enough" anyway... KC+Bridge lets you buy all Provinces at once if you get a good enough hand.

If Page and Town are on the same board together, then hey, there's a combo that probably is good enough to go for... but it's not like an instant free win; it's still a race to get there first.

Glad to hear that's how you too see it :)

Retrospectively, I could have done a better job at explaining that Champion/Road/Diadem/Travelling Fair combo.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1222 on: October 20, 2018, 08:54:34 am »
0

Apparently my Events Research and Improve as well as my Edict Exploration have the same names as official Renaissance cards/Projects.
Given that my Exploration is an Edict and Renaissance's is a Project, I guess I wasn't that far away, huh?
Any suggestions on how I could rename those three are welcome.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1223 on: October 20, 2018, 10:40:15 am »
+3

Did you guys see the leaked Renaissance names thread? Pizza is totally an official thing now; it was misspelled "Piazza".
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1224 on: October 20, 2018, 12:42:18 pm »
0

Did you guys see the leaked Renaissance names thread? Pizza is totally an official thing now; it was misspelled "Piazza".
Unless there are two, I started that thread. :P
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1225 on: October 20, 2018, 05:24:31 pm »
+1

Renaissance names have been confirmed, so I updated Research (now Synthesis), Exploration (now Expansion) and Improve (now Enhance).
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1226 on: October 21, 2018, 08:25:22 am »
+2

« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 09:11:08 am by Fly-Eagles-Fly »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1227 on: October 22, 2018, 02:12:29 pm »
+3

I considered doing Outskirts (from that weekly design contest) as an Event, or perhaps even a Landmark:

Quote
Some name, 5$, Event
+2 VP
Gain a Duchy. You may trash an Action card from your hand. If you don't, take <5>.

Quote
Outskirts, Landmark
When you gain a Duchy, you may trash an Action card from your hand, for +2VP.
Perhaps the Landmark could even apply to any Victory card.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 02:13:58 pm by Asper »
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1228 on: October 22, 2018, 02:41:32 pm »
+1

Great Dominate-style stuff, needs 11 less card-shaped thingies when you print it.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1229 on: October 22, 2018, 05:10:25 pm »
+4

Some weird idea I had a while ago. It's not all that greatly executed, but anyhow, the weekly design contest made me think of this.

Introducing "Feats", a mechanic inspired by RPG skill trees. Basically, if you do certain things during the game, put a coin token on the spot of your "Feats" mat (each player gets their own). My current design has the Feats be dependent on each other, starting in the bottom row - so like in a real skill tree, you can't get the one for gaining a Province without either drawing your deck or gaining a Duchy first... Etc. Of course there would be cards that care about the Feats you achieved. Just some examples... This is really experimental, so don't expect great things. That goes for both the actual cards as well as the conditions themselves.





Also, if you misread "Feats" for "Feast", that's totally your fault, not mine  :P There is no Feast Feat.
Edit: Changed the card type from "Courage" to "Fame". Another one that sounds familiar. No, not THAT Familiar!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 06:39:48 pm by Asper »
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1230 on: October 22, 2018, 05:14:41 pm »
+1

Some weird idea I had a while ago. It's not all that greatly executed, but anyhow, the weekly design contest made me think of this.

Introducing "Feats", a mechanic inspired by RPG skill trees. Basically, if you do certain things during the game, put a coin token on the spot of your "Feats" mat (each player gets their own). My current design has the Feats be dependent on each other, starting in the bottom row - so like in a real skill tree, you can't get the one for gaining a Province without either drawing your deck or gaining a Duchy first... Etc. Of course there would be cards that care about the Feats you achieved. Just some examples... This is really experimental, so don't expect great things. That goes for both the actual cards as well as the conditions themselves.

Also, if you misread "Feats" for "Feast", that's totally your fault, not mine  :P There is no Feast Feat.
Really neat! The only criticism I have at first glance is that there might not be any attack cards in the kingdom. Other than that I really like this. Also I like having 'gained a Courage card' as a Feat, so that way you always have at least one Feat.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 05:15:58 pm by Fly-Eagles-Fly »
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1231 on: October 22, 2018, 06:20:53 pm »
+1

The general idea is good. But as Fly said, Attack is bit too Kingdom dependent. Which isn't a problem if there are several maps and you randomize them-
I also think that "no cards in deck or discard pile" condition needs a timing element; otherwise this is fulfilled at the start of the game (empty discard) as well as at the start of turn 2 (empty deck).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1232 on: October 22, 2018, 06:38:35 pm »
+2

The general idea is good. But as Fly said, Attack is bit too Kingdom dependent. Which isn't a problem if there are several maps and you randomize them-
I also think that "no cards in deck or discard pile" condition needs a timing element; otherwise this is fulfilled at the start of the game (empty discard) as well as at the start of turn 2 (empty deck).

Pretty sure it’s supposed to be a “nor”.

Looks fun in principle though!
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1233 on: October 22, 2018, 07:27:30 pm »
+1

Oops! Yes, of course it's supposed to be no card in deck nor discard pile.

The attack thing was just a random idea... I wanted some blockers (2$ left, Duchy gaining) but also a path for things you want to do either way. That could also have been something like "Had 7$ or more to spend", "played 6 differently named cards in a turn", or such. I mean, technically, even drawing your deck or something like playing 6 differently named cards are kingdom dependent. I'l listen to any suggestions which Feat one could replace the attack one with.

Pew... I was kinda anxious to show you guys this one  ;D
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1234 on: October 23, 2018, 07:09:05 am »
0

Which isn't a problem if there are several maps and you randomize them-

About this: There could be several mats, but they would still be the same between all players. I actually feel it's going to be tricky enough to find even one that works.
I DID consider making it more like an actual skill tree in that there could be several starting positions ("Choose your class"), but that would make sense only if there were a few more nodes. And that in turn would of course increase the upper bound of cards that use them (or force me to go with awkward wordings).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1235 on: October 23, 2018, 07:28:55 am »
+1

I personally think that the way you have it set up is perfect, but maybe change what the feats actually are. I just don't think it should get too complex. I do like the idea of having a couple of different boards, so you can use things that reference certain types. Things like,
Have three cards on your Tavern mat
Receive three Boons on a single turn
etc.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1236 on: October 23, 2018, 07:33:07 am »
+1

Which isn't a problem if there are several maps and you randomize them-

About this: There could be several mats, but they would still be the same between all players. I actually feel it's going to be tricky enough to find even one that works.
I DID consider making it more like an actual skill tree in that there could be several starting positions ("Choose your class"), but that would make sense only if there were a few more nodes. And that in turn would of course increase the upper bound of cards that use them (or force me to go with awkward wordings).
I overread that you just need one of the lower Feats to unlock the one in the upper level so several mats are not necessary and you wisely put the Kingdom-dependent stuff, the Attack, on a slot where it matters not at all for progressing.


Have three cards on your Tavern mat
Receive three Boons on a single turn
etc.
I think that this kind of stuff is far more Kingdom-dependent than having played an Attack. Somebody who doesn't like Adventures and uses no Reserve fan cards could never achieve the first Feat.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1237 on: October 23, 2018, 07:43:19 am »
+2

What I mean is, if you have several boards you could just use ones that fit the kingdom, like when you use Reserve cards (or Miser) then you add that board to the randomizer pile. Or maybe you could have a standard board that always works, and additional feats you can put on the board to use instead.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1238 on: October 23, 2018, 07:51:28 am »
+1

Also, here's a Spellcaster I just made:
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 02:13:32 pm by Fly-Eagles-Fly »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1239 on: October 23, 2018, 08:17:03 am »
0

Also, here's a Spellcaster I just made:


I'm flattered that you like Spellcasters enough to do your own - they haven't gotten that much love historically.

About Nymph, I feel this might be a bit more complex than what I usually would aim for. Not that overpay was a bad match for a Spellcasters - actually, since Spells need to be bought and a lack of buys can be rather unpleasant, it fits pretty great. But both Boons and Spells add quite a bit of complexity, and the overpay effect lasts several turns, so it's a bit much at once. (Not more than some official Nocturne stuff, but well...)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1240 on: October 23, 2018, 08:21:25 am »
+1

Yeah, maybe I'll split up the two halves. For me the top part is just complex enough, but now that I think about it again, the bottom half is a bit much. Anyway I did not want to distract from Feats. I think 'had no cards in deck or discard pile' might not be good either, because that also seems highly board dependant. Here's on idea: Had no Coppers in play at the end of turn, though this could be too long.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 08:29:57 am by Fly-Eagles-Fly »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1241 on: October 23, 2018, 08:33:10 am »
+1

What I mean is, if you have several boards you could just use ones that fit the kingdom, like when you use Reserve cards (or Miser) then you add that board to the randomizer pile. Or maybe you could have a standard board that always works, and additional feats you can put on the board to use instead.
To elaborate on this further, this is what I mean. You have one board that looks like the one you have, with the Attack one replaced. Then you have other token thingys that can sit on the board to cover up the original Feats. Things like what I said before, or gained a Colony, etc. Then in games using a Courage card, you mix up all of the extra Feats that fit the board, and randomly choose which ones are used.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1242 on: October 23, 2018, 09:16:16 am »
0

Yeah, maybe I'll split up the two halves. For me the top part is just complex enough, but now that I think about it again, the bottom half is a bit much. Anyway I did not want to distract from Feats. I think 'had no cards in deck or discard pile' might not be good either, because that also seems highly board dependant. Here's on idea: Had no Coppers in play at the end of turn, though this could be too long.

Well, for that one, you need either a trasher, nonterminal draw, or a Village and terminal draw. That seems more likely, to me at least. Coppers could work. While they are a bit redundant to the "2$ left" condition, you can't just get them both at the same time early.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1243 on: October 23, 2018, 01:15:47 pm »
0

I'm wondering... Is "Fame" a better type name than "Courage"? Fame mat, with Feats on it, one Feat being to buy a Fame card? I guess... yes? Or will it be confused with Fate?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 01:16:52 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1244 on: October 23, 2018, 01:59:21 pm »
+1

I'm wondering... Is "Fame" a better type name than "Courage"? Fame mat, with Feats on it, one Feat being to buy a Fame card? I guess... yes? Or will it be confused with Fate?
Fame would work better... if it couldn't be confused with Fate. I think you should keep it at Courage, since that also works, only because Fate is already a thing. Obviously the Feat/Feast thing doesn't matter since Feast is an outdated card.
Edit: Also, new simpler Nymph.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 02:13:14 pm by Fly-Eagles-Fly »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1245 on: October 23, 2018, 03:35:34 pm »
0

New Nymph seems kinda cute. Are you sure it needs to be a "choose one"?

I have to reiterate at this opportunity that I'm not a fan of the design decision to have some Boons provide +Actions.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1246 on: October 23, 2018, 04:26:00 pm »
+1

New Nymph seems kinda cute. Are you sure it needs to be a "choose one"?

I have to reiterate at this opportunity that I'm not a fan of the design decision to have some Boons provide +Actions.

No, I'm not sure. Also, I agree with the second part. I'm always happy to get the Field's gift, but it also seems too good, if you decided to play Bard instead of whatever other terminal, and because you got the 1 out of 12, you get to play the other one too. It does work well with Druid, though.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1247 on: October 23, 2018, 05:50:10 pm »
0

New Nymph seems kinda cute. Are you sure it needs to be a "choose one"?

I have to reiterate at this opportunity that I'm not a fan of the design decision to have some Boons provide +Actions.

No, I'm not sure. Also, I agree with the second part. I'm always happy to get the Field's gift, but it also seems too good, if you decided to play Bard instead of whatever other terminal, and because you got the 1 out of 12, you get to play the other one too. It does work well with Druid, though.

Or on the flipside, you decide to give it a shot, because you think it should be one of the next, and then you screw yourself over. No thanks. Druid is a lot better, but then again, it's hardly a "Fate" card at all. I also think there simply are too many different Boons and Hexes.

I think the issue is general that a card that gives Boons can't really draw cards, because it makes Field's Gift really strong. And with a hypothetical Nymph that can both get a Boon and cast e.g. Wisdom, that's exactly the issue you get. As said, I don't think this is Nymph's fault.
Maybe Nymph should just give +1$, and then still do the choice it originally had. Except then if it's the fifth +Coin Fate card... +2 Actions, maybe? But then it's pretty much just a better Trickster...
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 06:07:35 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1248 on: October 23, 2018, 06:18:19 pm »
0

Speaking of Fate cards... I think I'm going with "Fame", after all. I mean, we have 4 cards about people that supposedly have the ability to look into the future, we have Mine & Mint, I think we'll manage. It just transports the theme better, I think.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1249 on: October 25, 2018, 03:35:43 pm »
+3

I think that Headhunter could get away with costing $2. It is a sifter that maintains handsize so in this respect it is better than Cellar or Warehouse but it can only sift through a few cards. It is also similar to this card from the bible from Theta's giant card compendium by ThetaSigma and Adrian Healey:

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1250 on: October 25, 2018, 03:39:07 pm »
+2

I think that Headhunter could get away with costing $2. It is a sifter that maintains handsize so in this respect it is better than Cellar or Warehouse but it can only sift through a few cards. It is also similar to this card from the bible from Theta's giant card compendium by ThetaSigma and Adrian Healey
Lol. Also, I agree with you.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1251 on: October 28, 2018, 07:32:17 am »
0

I guess you guys are right. When I playtest Headhunter, I'm going to try it at 2$.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1252 on: November 05, 2018, 08:44:13 am »
+2

Thumbs up for Minister being similar to Inventor!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1253 on: November 05, 2018, 09:07:26 am »
+2

Thumbs up for Minister being similar to Inventor!

Actually, Inventor was more or less created here years ago. In the mini-set design contest there's clerk
Quote
Clerk - - Action
All cards cost less this turn, but not less than . Gain a card costing up to .
Functionally, it's pretty much identical* to Inventor. And I wouldn't be surprised if this was an earlier Inventor, with the effects being reorganised to make the card more intuitive.

*Putting the gaining first on inventor could matter with, e.g. Border Village
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 09:12:02 am by ThetaSigma12 »
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1254 on: November 05, 2018, 01:07:59 pm »
+1

Also, Headhunter is like an interesting version of Borderguard which I find extremly bland.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1255 on: November 05, 2018, 01:35:57 pm »
+1

Also, Headhunter is like an interesting version of Borderguard which I find extremly bland.

Extremely bland? It has two whole artefacts that change the way it gets played. Seems pretty interesting to me.
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1256 on: November 05, 2018, 01:47:30 pm »
+1

Also, Headhunter is like an interesting version of Borderguard which I find extremly bland.

Extremely bland? It has two whole artefacts that change the way it gets played. Seems pretty interesting to me.
In order to get the Artifacts you need a pretty high Action card density which you achieve best via thinning. But with good thinning sifting becomes less important. So my impression is that the Artifact trigger got pretty randomly attached.
As the card is pretty weak there is also less of a fight about its Artifacts (and less tension equals less fun in my opinion.) . Scheming a weak sifter or increasing its dig depth by one isn't something you fight much about. In comparison, you cannot leave the Flag uncontested for the entire game.

I consider your Observatory as well as Asper's Headhunter to be more interesting Spy variants.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1257 on: November 07, 2018, 07:24:18 pm »
+1

Hey Asper, I just recently started to get back on the forums a little :)  Glad to see you're still producing great cards.  I have a question for you.  I want to make some Edicts (hopefully you don't mind), and I'm wondering if you use the Dominion Card Image Generator at all?  Do you know what custom colors inputs for red, green, and blue I should input in order to get the right edict color scheme?  Thank you so much for your help :)  I'll be sure to post whatever I come up with at some point. 
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1258 on: November 08, 2018, 06:27:22 pm »
+1

Hey Nflickner,
great to have you back!
Say, was that second "n" always in your name? I must have written that wrong so many times then... Sorry  ;D

I use the card image generator on and off. My main gripe with it is the fact that it only bolds keywords it recognizes, and so I have to re-do all of my cards in my own template when I want to upload them to fds' German sister forum, anyway. As a result, I never tried to create an Edict with it.

It's noteworthy though that the reason I colored Edicts blue was to mirror Reactions, much like how Events mirror regular Actions, Landmarks mirror Victories and Hexes mirror Curses. So it actually would make sense to use the default Reaction color instead. I didn't quite hit it back then, but it's worth a thought. Certainly it would make it easier for others to do their own Edicts.

Which should make clear that I don't mind you doing your own at all ;)
I'll try to remember sending you my template link via pm tomorrow. If I forget, please remind me. It's for Gimp, though.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 06:28:27 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1259 on: November 08, 2018, 11:52:22 pm »
+1

Hey Asper, thanks so much :)  I appreciate the template when you have the time.  I use Gimp as well.  I actually am using both currently--I make the main template in the image creator and then I add the picture to the background with Gimp. 
:)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1260 on: November 11, 2018, 08:31:18 pm »
+1

Added Fame cards to the OP. Headhunter is now a 2$, the Attack feat for now has been replaced by another gaining condition, namely Gold. Also I playtested Cliffside Village with a friendly Border Village interaction (each other player may gain a cheaper card) and it felt just fine.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1261 on: November 12, 2018, 04:44:37 pm »
0

Oh, and I also fixed some error on Well and added a new Event.



Given that you'll usually buy it after you know what for, that's not all that great a name, but well... I originally wanted it to give coin tokens when others gained the card (would have called that "Toll") but that seemed a bit obvious.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1262 on: November 13, 2018, 07:20:50 am »
+1

So this hedges against Borrow and handsize attacks. Probably not all that well as you will often Predict the village pile and usually you play splitters and draw before payload.
I think this is a bit weak and binary, especially compared to the similar Adventure Events. So how about combining drawing with sifiting, e.g. something like 'draw a card, then if you have more than 6 cards in hand, discard down to 6'?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1263 on: November 13, 2018, 09:41:19 am »
0

So this hedges against Borrow and handsize attacks. Probably not all that well as you will often Predict the village pile and usually you play splitters and draw before payload.
I think this is a bit weak and binary, especially compared to the similar Adventure Events. So how about combining drawing with sifiting, e.g. something like 'draw a card, then if you have more than 6 cards in hand, discard down to 6'?

My reason to cost it at 6$ was that, no matter which card you choose, it's basically a Laboratory. However, it's one that you don't need to redraw to play again. It suffices if your opponent, or one of your opponents, plays a copy of the picked card.
That on the other hand may make it too boring. Unless you pick a card that isn't gained or the game is rather sloggy, it doesn't make such a huge difference which card you pick. About sifting, I fear it would slow down the game too much.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1264 on: November 16, 2018, 08:10:50 am »
0

Apparently when I re-did the Spells with the new Wand icon, I forgot to do Dexterity. Oops. I added the old one to the OP for now, but will add the version with the new icon when I get to it.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1265 on: November 16, 2018, 11:26:31 pm »
+1

So, I considered doing a few more cards of the mechanics that I didn't do much with, yet. Grimoire is a Spellcaster-Treasure (quite obviously the theme is influenced by the Weekly Design Contest). I also considered an Attack that cared about the Feats you accomplished, but I'm not sure what I want there.





I'm also still pondering replacements for that "draw your deck" achievement. It's one that rewards players who are already winning and is the most board dependent... Perhaps I should just make all of them about gaining cards, like "gain a Copper" or "gain nothing at all in your turn"?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1266 on: November 19, 2018, 04:03:06 pm »
+4

Aaaaand some more...

I tried a similar concept before under the name "Inventor", but it did something slightly different and I really hated the art I had picked... Not sure Loyal subjects needs to have that special on-trash.



Also, when I did the original Spellcaster batch, I had a card called Shaman, which was just +2 Cards, you may cast a Spell". It was dropped for being too bland, so I added a little twist:
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1267 on: November 19, 2018, 06:10:31 pm »
+1

The “either way” in grimoire is weird. Can you reverse the order of the commands so that it’s not necessary? If going with the second Barbarian, I would just make it “If you have achieved at least three Feats”, and limit it to 5 cards or more. Sounds too scary otherwise.

I like the cards though!
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1268 on: November 19, 2018, 11:48:59 pm »
+2

Delegate would be more interesting as a $3 or $4 card that gives +2 cards and turns any action into a cantrip (Reverse Enchantress). It seems a bit weak for $5 considering that the discard is only really valuable when you draw 2 actions dead, but that's what it has to be if it's a Smithy +.

Another idea:

Crowded City
Action - $4
+3 Cards
+3 Actions
Discard an Action card (or reveal a hand with none)

One of those cards you really have to think about playing - it's terminal draw (functionally the same as Smithy in BM), but if you want to use it in an engine (which it enables) it has complexities Smithy doesn't
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1269 on: November 20, 2018, 02:45:28 am »
+1

The “either way” in grimoire is weird. Can you reverse the order of the commands so that it’s not necessary? If going with the second Barbarian, I would just make it “If you have achieved at least three Feats”, and limit it to 5 cards or more. Sounds too scary otherwise.

I like the cards though!

I made Grimoire that way because of the Wisdom Spell, which draws cards. Drawing cards in the buy phase is weak, but it's better if you know you have to discard cards. The "either way" tries to be friendly, but I guess it's established by now cards shouldn't do that... Would it be better if I just removed it?

For Barbarian, I think I need to ponder this a little more. I'd like the Feat cards in general to scale directly with the Feats, and only the Rabble version can do that at all... But it also doesn't scale all that nicely. While I like the idea of a Feat attack, I kinda feel this would be better as a Seasons card. Maybe I'll go over Raiders again, because I considered changing some of them either way (mostly because of how similar Peltmonger and Lumbermen turned out to be). But that's another story.

Delegate would be more interesting as a $3 or $4 card that gives +2 cards and turns any action into a cantrip (Reverse Enchantress). It seems a bit weak for $5 considering that the discard is only really valuable when you draw 2 actions dead, but that's what it has to be if it's a Smithy +.

Another idea:

Crowded City
Action - $4
+3 Cards
+3 Actions
Discard an Action card (or reveal a hand with none)

One of those cards you really have to think about playing - it's terminal draw (functionally the same as Smithy in BM), but if you want to use it in an engine (which it enables) it has complexities Smithy doesn't

My original version costed 4$ and had the discarding mandatory, while only giving an Action if it was an Action card. The reason I changed it was that I tend to end up with 4$s and 3$s all the time, and have to make a willing effort to push them into 5$ territory. So I did here... Would that 4$ version be better? Alternatively, I could just add +1Card whenever you discard an Action card. Basically this makes Delegate a Smithy that transforms another Action card into a Village (instead of just a Necropolis). This actually looks a tad too strong to me?
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1270 on: November 20, 2018, 04:01:49 am »
+1

I know exactly what you mean about $3 and $4 cards, and I do the same thing. I have countless ideas for events costing $P for that reason (and just need to stop procrastinating about doing up art for them).

I don't know why it ends up that way; I guess it's easier to tell when the card is too strong and too weak than the $5 price point.

Having said all that, I do like the mandatory discard version better. Maybe it just seems to me like there's been too many "Smithy with a bonus" cards.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1271 on: November 20, 2018, 04:48:22 am »
+1

I know exactly what you mean about $3 and $4 cards, and I do the same thing. I have countless ideas for events costing $P for that reason (and just need to stop procrastinating about doing up art for them).

I don't know why it ends up that way; I guess it's easier to tell when the card is too strong and too weak than the $5 price point.

Having said all that, I do like the mandatory discard version better. Maybe it just seems to me like there's been too many "Smithy with a bonus" cards.

Ha ha, I see. Alright then, I'll try out the 4$ version  :)
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1272 on: November 20, 2018, 01:24:31 pm »
+1

I don't think that Delegate is weak. If you just look at net effects this is a Smithy or Laboratory which seems a bit weakish for $5 but there is so much more going on: first of all there is the "draw first, get Actions later" aspect that is familiar from Avanto, Coin of the Realm and Villagers and that is also pretty strong.
Second, while you often commit to generate draw power from either Village + Smithy variant or Lab variant you sometimes also mix them together and if you get this deal via one card that is even better.
Third, Smithy is basically like Village or Throne Room: you don't mind paying $1 more even if the cherry on top is pretty small.

If Delegate were the mirror of Stables it would be too weak for $5 (but perhaps also too good for $4).
Unlike Stables, or rather the hypothetical ActionStables, this has the advantage of drawing before you discard (which, if we take a starting hand as benchmark, increase the number of cards you select from by 50%).
If you make the discarding mandatory this becomes a "mere" Stables variant and ceases to be what it is: a flexible card that can be used for terminal as well as non-terminal draw and that increases your engine consistency quite a bit.

tl;dr: Delegate is a great card, don't change it.

Not sure Loyal subjects needs to have that special on-trash.
Most def. A mere cantrip is too bland and this allows many Fortress tricks without becoming as crazy as Fortress (only one copy; landing in the discard pile).
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1273 on: November 20, 2018, 03:12:35 pm »
+1

Third, Smithy is basically like Village or Throne Room: you don't mind paying $1 more even if the cherry on top is pretty small.
I think this is the only point that matters. It's an interesting card that gives a small bonus over Smithy, so it's good.

Not sure Loyal subjects needs to have that special on-trash.
Most def. A mere cantrip is too bland and this allows many Fortress tricks without becoming as crazy as Fortress (only one copy; landing in the discard pile).
True. It definitely needs something extra. I'm not sure this is the best thing, but it definitely works and is interesting.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1274 on: November 20, 2018, 04:19:48 pm »
0

The idea for Delegate originally was that terminal draw gets worse if there are cantrips you might draw dead (especially if they don't do anything for you besides being a cantrip), and initially I wanted it to just be a Smithy that always gets this downside... But, I realized that I couldn't use this to balance the card, as all regular terminal draw in the kingdom would just as well be affected by it. So I decided to instead make it an advantage the card should have over other terminal draw. It isn't annoyed by them, and can in fact make use of these cards. The card is untrashable to keep this status.

I also felt an Action complementing Shelters/Estates and Heirlooms/Coppers should be some placeholder kingdom inhabitants. When I made them "loyal" subjects, making them non-trashable seemed especially cute: Be it Knights, Rats, or Locusts, these guys never abandon you.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1275 on: November 20, 2018, 05:33:12 pm »
+1

When I made them "loyal" subjects, making them non-trashable seemed especially cute: Be it Knights, Rats, or Locusts, these guys never abandon you.
Looking at it that way, the extra effect is perfect.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1276 on: November 21, 2018, 02:18:39 pm »
0

Someone notified me that cards that never are placed next to the supply, such as Shelters, Heirlooms or the official Zombies (...) lack the "This is not in the supply" note that cards like Spoils, Travellers or Prizes have. For this reason, I should probably drop it from Zombie and Loyal Subjects (yay!).

On the other hand, the existing cards that appear this way all have a secondary type. They also all, unlike my Zombie/Loyal Subjects, contain several differently named cards. I would tend to believe I can get away with my cards not getting additional types, I guess? For cards with the "not in the supply" note, Spoils have no additional type, whereas Prizes do. And of cards in the supply, most cards, including split piles, don't, but Castles and Knights do. Any opinions here?

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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1277 on: November 21, 2018, 02:32:02 pm »
+2

Someone notified me that cards that never are placed next to the supply, such as Shelters, Heirlooms or the official Zombies (...) lack the "This is not in the supply" note that cards like Spoils, Travellers or Prizes have. For this reason, I should probably drop it from Zombie and Loyal Subjects (yay!).
Even after you have learned that you can not return non-Supply cards with Ambassador the lack of optical markers (the * in the price / This is not in the Supply.) can make people forget that the cannot return Shelters via Ambassador.
So in my opinion it all depends on your playing group. Are they pros who get these subtleties or are they casual players whom you often have to remind about stuff like, you cannot gain cards from non-Supply piles and so on.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1278 on: November 22, 2018, 03:36:56 am »
+2

Someone notified me that cards that never are placed next to the supply, such as Shelters, Heirlooms or the official Zombies (...) lack the "This is not in the supply" note that cards like Spoils, Travellers or Prizes have. For this reason, I should probably drop it from Zombie and Loyal Subjects (yay!).
Even after you have learned that you can not return non-Supply cards with Ambassador the lack of optical markers (the * in the price / This is not in the Supply.) can make people forget that the cannot return Shelters via Ambassador.
So in my opinion it all depends on your playing group. Are they pros who get these subtleties or are they casual players whom you often have to remind about stuff like, you cannot gain cards from non-Supply piles and so on.

Sure, but isn't this something you should tell Donald X? I mean, I can choose to do it different than official cards, but as a rule of thumb I prefer working inside the framework.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1279 on: November 26, 2018, 10:33:48 pm »
+1

Everything that isn't the supply either has a special type OR * and (This is not in the supply)

The Zombies that start in the trash in the Nocturne have the type "Zombie" - I think yours should too. One of the ideas that pops up here which I enjoy is words that could refer to either the name of a card or type of a card (ie cards with the type "Silver" or "Duchy")

I think cards that start in your deck should have a type, as Shelters and Heirlooms do. Loyal subjects could also be a Zombie, just for a laugh, or give it some other type. I agree it should have some sort of marking that it isn't a supply card for the sake of Ambassador et al.

Knights and Castles have types because they are self referential. If Knights didn't trash themselves when they trashed Knights, they wouldn't need the type.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 10:43:16 pm by NoMoreFun »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1280 on: November 27, 2018, 02:22:43 am »
0

Everything that isn't the supply either has a special type OR * and (This is not in the supply)

The Zombies that start in the trash in the Nocturne have the type "Zombie" - I think yours should too. One of the ideas that pops up here which I enjoy is words that could refer to either the name of a card or type of a card (ie cards with the type "Silver" or "Duchy")

I think cards that start in your deck should have a type, as Shelters and Heirlooms do. Loyal subjects could also be a Zombie, just for a laugh, or give it some other type. I agree it should have some sort of marking that it isn't a supply card for the sake of Ambassador et al.

Knights and Castles have types because they are self referential. If Knights didn't trash themselves when they trashed Knights, they wouldn't need the type.

On the other hand, all Shelters, Heirlooms and official Zombies are not only no piles, but also contain differently named cards. Practically, it is impossible to talk about any of them just by name. Neither do you want Necromancer's setup to spell out three cards, nor the rules about Shelters, or even mention 7 cards each time you talk about Heirlooms. Knights and Castles reference themselves, but at the core that also means they have the type to ease talking about them. Prizes never talk about themselves, but contain different cards, and you don't want Tournament to meantion five cards. Same with Spirits getting a type for Exorcist's sake. For Spoils, which is functionally very similar to Prizes or Spirits, you only have one card, and the same goes for Mercenary and Madman. I feel that all of this clearly supports the notion that types are tied to the problematique of reference (self-referential or not) and not necessarily the cards being "non-piles". I mean, we have no way of seperating the groups now, as non-piles appear only as collections of several cards right now, but the use of types as a reference tool is very well documented. Perhaps Donald has conciously made a decision to do it this way, but there is no way of telling.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 02:23:49 am by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1281 on: November 27, 2018, 04:30:08 am »
0

Just asked Donald X about it and he confirmed that types are for reference only. I'm aware that I don't need to follow all official standards with utmost devotion (and I haven't), but adding a type doesn't feel like something I want to do arbitrarily. So Zombie and Loyal Subjects will stay unique-type-less.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1282 on: November 27, 2018, 04:56:28 am »
+1

Still not too happy with Outskirts. Here's another try (old Outskirts to the left):



It has some similarity with Advance on the surface, but vastly different uses (mostly greening, I think). Do you guys think it should it be +3$? That basically would make every Action card an optional Spoils, which I feel might be too much.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1283 on: November 27, 2018, 11:00:34 am »
+1

What about, to account for the fact the Action could be anything from a Ruins to a King's Court:

Refund
Event - <1>
You may trash an Action Card from your hand. If you did, +1 Buy and +$ equal to its cost in coins.

Or even

Refund
Event - <2>
+1 Buy. At the start of clean up, trash an Action card you would discard from play this turn. +1 Coffers for each $1 it cost.
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1284 on: November 27, 2018, 11:47:49 am »
+2

I like the old version better. The new one is too automatic with Ruins for my taste.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1285 on: November 27, 2018, 08:03:42 pm »
0

I like the old version better. The new one is too automatic with Ruins for my taste.

I can see that, but on the other hand for Death Cart it's actually a combo and Cultist certainly can afford being not-quite-mandatory once in a while. Marauder truly becomes useless (gain a Spoils, each other player gains a 2/3 Spoils), but it's not like there aren't other situations where an attack becomes garbage due to the kingdom. Anyhow, I will ponder some further variants of this.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1286 on: November 27, 2018, 08:39:40 pm »
+1

I decided to re-visit Edicts and slightly alter their color scheme to be more in line with actual Reaction cards. Funny enough, the default color that Violet CM's Dominion card image generator gives me when I choose custom and sideways looks exactly like I want it. Weird. Anyhow, in the process I noticed that one of my Edicts had the same art I had used for guild Hall, and I like it better there. Also, a lot of the pictures were dark and grey-blue-ish, so I swapped around a bit there, too. Oh yeah, and new Edicts, I guess. Some better than others.

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Fragasnap

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1287 on: November 27, 2018, 09:53:15 pm »
+3

Banishment
Types: Edict
Setup: Put the Estate pile in the trash.
The pile being empty is no fun. I'd word it as "Remove the Estate pile from the game," so that its pile doesn't count.

Bureaucracy
Types: Edict
When you gain a Victory card, put it on top of your deck.
I've played with an effect like this. It was commonly forgotten and difficult to remedy. An even bigger concern I have is how gaining Estates becomes such a non-option when they get top-decked: I'd recommend having Bureaucracy only trigger once per turn (and probably only on your turns so that rare Estate junking isn't so miserable).

Commerce
Types: Edict
After you shuffle during the game, you may gain a Silver.
Digging cards that don't stop on Silver (such as Golem and Sage with cost-reduction) can immediately drain the Silver pile with some finagling, if you think that's a problem or not.

Inflation
Types: Edict
Victory cards cost $1 more.
My Countess sends her regards.

Monarchy
Types: Edict
Directly after you finish playing an Action card, you may trash it to play it again.
I don't think being able to blow up your entire deck sounds like very much fun. This probably makes every board into a megaturn board and wildly exacerbates turn order advantage. This could be reasonably interesting if it was limited to once per turn so you'd have to pace the inevitable decline.

Subventions
Types: Edict
When you buy a Victory card, each other player may draw a card.
A Road Network you don't have to buy? It triggers optionally on-buy instead of mandatory on-gain, but it is just so similar I'm not sure it's worth the card.

Treason
Types: Edict
When you buy a card, each other player may reveal a copy of it from their hand. If anyone does, take {2}.
Great concept, but the way it favors players earlier in turn order and how supremely oppressive it may be in multiplayer games could kill it.

Appeasement
Types: Edict
When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard an Estate from your hand, to be unaffected by it.
Exile
Types: Edict
When you gain a Curse, set it aside and gain a Copper.
Expansion
Types: Edict
At the start of your turn, you may take your -$1 token, to get +1 Action.
Reformation
Types: Edict
Setup: Add one Province to the supply per player.
I really like these ones most.
Appeasement doesn't need to state "from your hand" since "discard" implies that.

"Supply" and "Kingdom" should be capitalized (across Gigantism, Imperialism, and Reformation).
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1288 on: November 27, 2018, 10:08:01 pm »
+2

I agree with pretty much everything Fragasnap said.

For Banishment, it might help if you just add, "This doesn't count as an empty supply pile for purposes of ending the game."
I think Monarchy would be good with a once per turn clause.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1289 on: November 28, 2018, 03:14:13 am »
0

Ah yes, I forgot about Countess. I originally suggested rules changes on sideway cards as an alternative to how you did it, and honestly still think it solves part of the issue of forgetting to apply such effects.
Edit: If it bothers you, I'm sure I can think of something else. Making all non-kingdom cards or all cards from the third turn on more expensive might do it. Or I just have it say "When you buy a card, take <1>".

Anyhow, I can see why Bureaucracy would be easy to forget. That's why in an original version it had "When you gain a Victory card, any other player may make you put it onto your deck". Now if everyone forgets about it, it's not a rule break. I don't mind Estates being a non-option all that much.

Banisment was supposed to empty the pile. But perhaps that makes the game too fast. I'm going to try it out at least once, though, to see whether I can do the concept some other way.

About Commerce, I think we had similar topics already. I might have slipped up here and used the old wording. Either way, I'll make it state that the Silver gets shuffled into the drawn cards so there is no discard once you revealed those. If you are talking about something that resembles Golem/Tunnel this is a non-issue to me.

The concern about Monarchy makes sense, but I'll have to ponder how to make a "once per turn" trackable.

About Subventions, yeah, I guess I should have dropped it. It was nice before Renaissance came, but now having both looks silly.

I can definitely see that Treason would favor earlier players too much. I have considered a reverse version, but failed to find a good wording for it, yet.

Thanks for liking the others. Those are the ones I'm most comfortable with, too.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 06:35:47 am by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1290 on: November 29, 2018, 04:53:18 am »
0

So, to do:

  • Appeasement can stay as is.
  • Banishment needs to be changed. An idea I thought of: "When you gain a Victory card, trash a cheaper one from the supply." Now each Province also makes a 3-pile more easy, but also strips opponents of options.
  • Bureaucracy might say "When you gain a Victory card, any other player may make you put it onto your deck" for remembering purposes.
  • Commerce will shuffle the gained Silver right into the deck to avoid Golem issues.
  • Diplomacy can stay as is.
  • Exile can stay as is.
  • Expansion can stay as is (edit: except that it should say "for +1 Action").
  • Gigantism can stay as is (except for capitalization).
  • Imperialism can stay as is (except for capitalization).
  • For Inflation, I might just increase the cost of all cards and give players two Coin tokens on Setup, or instead enforce that cards can never cost less than 3. I actually think I like the second better.
  • I will think of a tracking mechanic for Monarchy - possibly: "Once per turn, after you finish playing an Action card, you may set it aside next to this to play it again. Trash it at the start of cleanup."
  • Reformation can stay as is  (except for capitalization).
  • Simplicity can stay as is.
  • Subvention will be removed for being a project now.
  • Supervision can stay as is.
  • I will try to think of a wording that reverses Treason. Perhaps it might become an Event in the process, but probably not.
  • Tyranny can stay as is.
  • Urbanization can stay as is.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 10:19:37 am by Asper »
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1291 on: November 29, 2018, 08:01:11 am »
+1

Expansion could say "for +1 Action" instead of "to get +1 Action."
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1292 on: November 29, 2018, 10:19:08 am »
0

Expansion could say "for +1 Action" instead of "to get +1 Action."

Nice catch, thanks!
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Jeebus

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1293 on: November 30, 2018, 03:48:31 pm »
+2



This started out as a suggestion for Kudasai's Barbarian Village. Originally I wanted it to gain a Copper in order to be topdecked, but the obscure lose-track rule makes this impossible.

You can just write:
When you gain this or discard it from play, you may put it onto your deck. If you do, gain a Copper.
The only difference is that it will still work after the Coppers are out.  :P

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1294 on: December 01, 2018, 04:47:58 am »
0



This started out as a suggestion for Kudasai's Barbarian Village. Originally I wanted it to gain a Copper in order to be topdecked, but the obscure lose-track rule makes this impossible.

You can just write:
When you gain this or discard it from play, you may put it onto your deck. If you do, gain a Copper.
The only difference is that it will still work after the Coppers are out.  :P

Yeah, I considered that. But I think I'm fine with how it is now. The Copper gaining might have been too harsh, anyhow.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1295 on: December 01, 2018, 05:23:36 am »
+3

Fixes:



Lame bonus:


Edit: Fixed Treason saying "on" instead of "in" hand.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 05:44:35 pm by Asper »
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MrFrog

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1296 on: December 01, 2018, 01:09:57 pm »
+1

Shouldn't Treason say "Victory card" instead of "Action card"?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1297 on: December 01, 2018, 03:05:11 pm »
0

Shouldn't Treason say "Victory card" instead of "Action card"?

Is this a theme or machanic inquiry?
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MrFrog

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1298 on: December 01, 2018, 03:13:54 pm »
+1

Shouldn't Treason say "Victory card" instead of "Action card"?

Is this a theme or machanic inquiry?

Your image in the German forum said "Punktekarte" and I assumed that was the right version. Otherwise the 4th player would have a huge disadvantage in the first round, wouldn't he?

EDIT: Oh, nevermind. I read the card wrong. In this case, the Action version probably is the more interesting one.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1299 on: December 01, 2018, 04:01:21 pm »
0

Shouldn't Treason say "Victory card" instead of "Action card"?

Is this a theme or machanic inquiry?

Your image in the German forum said "Punktekarte" and I assumed that was the right version. Otherwise the 4th player would have a huge disadvantage in the first round, wouldn't he?

EDIT: Oh, nevermind. I read the card wrong. In this case, the Action version probably is the more interesting one.

Argh, my fault. The Action version is the right one. I simply messed up when doing the German version. Oops.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1300 on: December 02, 2018, 08:53:00 pm »
+1

I don't like the idea of Bureaucracy being triggered by other players. A better way would be to make it sometimes beneficial.

How about " When you gain a Victory card, gain it to your hand,  then put a card from your hand onto your deck"
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1301 on: December 03, 2018, 02:34:36 am »
0

I don't like the idea of Bureaucracy being triggered by other players. A better way would be to make it sometimes beneficial.

How about " When you gain a Victory card, gain it to your hand,  then put a card from your hand onto your deck"

Well, that doesn't solve the forgetting issue. Although as I said, I think it's less of a problem for Edicts, because they are harder to overlook. Perhaps I should just remove it.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1302 on: December 03, 2018, 04:22:04 am »
0

Hum... I already have two other Edicts that use the -$1 token, but I just wondered whether I should also use it for Treason. Making it stack shouldn't provide endless debt (except perhaps if your opponent has a tiny deck and you use Trader, but even then you'd be paying more than them practically always). Nonetheless, perhaps I shouldn't rely on too many different expansions with these? And do I even need Treason to be stackable? Opinions?
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1303 on: December 03, 2018, 10:14:49 am »
+2

I think the main problem with treason is forcing people to show their hand constantly. It would be better as an event, I think. And yeah, better if it doesn’t stack.
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1304 on: December 03, 2018, 10:31:09 am »
+1

I don't like the new Inflation. The old one was a nice global effect (that arguably shifts the Kingdom more towards engine play) whereas the new version makes all those $2 cantrips expensive and could run into issues in heavy slogs when you want to buy Copper. This occurs extremely rarely, so you could be pragmatic and simply ignore it. But if you care about principles then Copper always costing $0 as a way out of a bad situation is not something you want to mess with.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1305 on: December 03, 2018, 12:33:14 pm »
0

Well, I can say that not once in my life have I bought Copper to get out of a bad situation. Perhaps somebody could fall into that trap, but I think it's about as realistic as somebody buying Donate to lock themselves out of the game. I feel making Knights trash Coppers or Apprentice drawing 3 cards for it is neat. And cost reducers now behave weird. Anyhow, I mostly removed the old version because Fragasnap seemed to be bothered about the redundancy with his Countess. As I mentioned a while ago, I first suggested the Edict mechanic in Fragasnap's thread as a way to make rule changing effects (in my opinion) easier to track. Only recently I started thinking about a cost increasing Edict, and after some thinking it ended up identical to Countess' effect - just, you know, without the Countess. So I guess the effect can't be that bad an idea. I just don't want people to feel I'm going round stealing ideas. If my replacement isn't good either, I'd rather just drop it.
Now that I talk about it, it doesn't seem to have defined behaviour with Potion cards. I don't really want Vineyard to cost $3P. I don't really see much fun had with Apothecary and University, either... About Transmute I don't really care, tbh. Hum.

About Treason, I think you're right. An Event is the way to go.
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1306 on: December 03, 2018, 12:38:29 pm »
+2

Well, I can say that not once in my life have I bought Copper to get out of a bad situation.
It is not something which occurs often in practice (Curser, Looter, no trasher is a situation which can become dire), but, well, there is a reason Coppers costs $0. As I said, it depends on whether you care about principles that only matter in very rare circumstances or not (I am nearly always leaning towards ignoring principles, rare edge cases and so on).

I did not think about all these funky interactions with $3 Coppers so I think that the card is definitely fun to try out.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1307 on: December 04, 2018, 05:17:51 am »
0

Argh, I just realized I de-capitalized Supply on Banishment again... Also apparently it should be "Clean-up phase" (capitalized, with a "-") on Monarchy.
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herw

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1308 on: December 06, 2018, 01:43:23 am »
+2

Hey Asper, thanks so much :)  I appreciate the template when you have the time.  I use Gimp as well.  I actually am using both currently--I make the main template in the image creator and then I add the picture to the background with Gimp. 
:)

Perhaps you like to use mine:
Querformat 3.3 30. November 2018



The created card-images are 1146px x 768px which is optimal for print by MeinSpiel
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 01:49:53 am by herw »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1309 on: December 06, 2018, 07:51:48 am »
+2

I don't like the idea of Bureaucracy being triggered by other players. A better way would be to make it sometimes beneficial.

How about " When you gain a Victory card, gain it to your hand,  then put a card from your hand onto your deck"

Well, that doesn't solve the forgetting issue. Although as I said, I think it's less of a problem for Edicts, because they are harder to overlook. Perhaps I should just remove it.

It doesn't solve it, but it motivates people to remember
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1310 on: December 10, 2018, 11:14:01 am »
+1

I don't like the idea of Bureaucracy being triggered by other players. A better way would be to make it sometimes beneficial.

How about " When you gain a Victory card, gain it to your hand,  then put a card from your hand onto your deck"

Well, that doesn't solve the forgetting issue. Although as I said, I think it's less of a problem for Edicts, because they are harder to overlook. Perhaps I should just remove it.

It doesn't solve it, but it motivates people to remember
Depends in your playing group. I don't play with folks who are prone to cheating and it feels kind of weird to have a card with political vibes in a hardcore non-political game. The wording does imply something like, "dudes, create alliances!". Not that this would actually work technically (if Alice and Bob created such an alliance Carol can always make them topdeck) but the vibes are there nonetheless.

By the way, I like the new blue!
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1311 on: December 10, 2018, 05:53:03 pm »
+2

Hum... There really is no pleasing everybody... Perhaps I should make an Event version instead:

Quote
Bureaucracy, $4, Event
Put your Bureaucracy token on a Supply pile (when you gain a card from that pile, put it onto your deck).
---
Setup: Each player puts their Bureaucracy token on the Province pile.

It's still mandatory, but I hope a token on the very pile is more of a reminder...?

Also, thanks, I'm glad you like the new colour  :)
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1312 on: January 04, 2019, 07:27:09 am »
0

I removed Carrier/Nightwatch from the OP. They were never good cards, and even though I'd still like to see a split pile where the two cards don't boost, but harm each other, I'm sure that actually fun cards would be better suited to implement this. There's also the idea of a card that protects ALL players from a negative effect, but this wasn't where it belonged, either.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1313 on: January 24, 2019, 02:32:29 pm »
+3

Some weekly design contest stuff, some other rabble I got lying around...

Split pile from the contest.


Another take on one of my contest submissions.


I have no idea how good/bad/broken this is. Maybe we can talk about it here?


And some other stuff: I don't know... Is it boring? Or broken?


Same here.
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trivialknot

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1314 on: January 25, 2019, 11:30:08 am »
0

Contract/Bookkeeper - I made a fan card way back that had the "play a treasure, draw to X" mechanic, and I liked it a lot, so I like this card too.  I think the part I don't like about this, is that there are only 5 copies of Contract, and sometimes winning that split may be really important.  And because it gives +Buy, sometimes you lose the split just because your opponent happened to draw a Contract on the right turn.

Impostor - It looks fine, although a bit transparent that this your attempt at Leprechaun without hexes.  The +Buy is a great addition here, I love that part.

Institute - I'd lean towards "broken", even in absence of TFB.  If you compare to Distant Lands, this is worth 1 less VP, but you don't have to spend time to get it out of your deck.  Also, if they deplete, that's two piles gone.  A nerf I would try is, make it a fugitive instead of a lab.  But I think it needs a bigger nerf than that.

Convert - I think this is on the weak side, because you can't trash estates, which is usually the most important remodel target.  Would it be crazy at $4?

Promenade - This reins in some of the problems with King's court (i.e. crazy with certain actions, swingy because hitting $7 is hard), but fundamentally I just don't like King's Court, so I'm not really a fan.
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trivialknot

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1315 on: January 25, 2019, 11:43:18 am »
+1

A couple more thoughts.

What if Contract were an heirloom?  It would guarantee a fair distribution.

And I suggested the Institute should discard a card.  What if it required that you discard a non-victory card, or maybe just a non-duchy?  A tiny bit of antisynergy could make it a little less common for the Institute and Duchy piles to deplete.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1316 on: January 25, 2019, 03:18:24 pm »
0

I'd probably put Contract at $3 or drop the +Buy. I think with the +Buy it compares really favourably to Coin of the Realm, which is already quite a strong card, and as trivialknot mentioned with only 5 of them they'll just disappear to whoever draws the first one as it has the +buy.

I can't say I'm enthralled by Imposter but I guess it's fine? If it supposed to be a no-hex alternative to Leprechaun then it doesn't have anything like the Wishing part of Leprechaun, which is the fun part for me at least.

I agree with trivialknot about Institute, it also seems a little against the spirit of how Dominion cards are designed given that you'd basically never buy Duchy on a board with this? I know we have Events like Delve but that feels different for whatever reason. I wonder whether Institute would work at 8 debt?

I quite like Convert at $5 actually, upgrading cards from play (Procession, Improve) has always been powerful so I don't see why it isn't here, this can even do Gold to Province which is sick. If it were changed to $4 then it shouldn't be able to trash itself as then it'd be like Feast but non-terminal and can gain up to $6 and can do all the other remodelly things it can do.

Promenade seems powerful but maybe kind of annoying to play? I'm imagining tracking Promenade chains being a nightmare but maybe it wouldn't be so bad.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1317 on: January 25, 2019, 04:12:22 pm »
0

I definitely see the issue of Impostor being another Leprachaun. I mean, I see it now, I didn't before. I like it better than Leprachaun (I like few of the Nocturne cards), but not by enough to excuse it existing when Leprachaun does.

I did consider putting Institute at a point of 8 debt before, because debt doesn't hinder TFB and similar tricks. While I don't think the straight upgrade of Duchy is an issue in itself, I agree it seems too automatic at the current price point. So <8> it is.

For Convert, trashing from play is so much stronger than from hand. I have no doubt this must cost 5$.

I can see the tracking annoyance with Promenade, but I don't see how it's swingy. 7 are very hard to hit, but 8 debt are impossible to not hit.

For Contract/Bookkeeper, I don't actually know whether I like them enough myself. I agree Contract picking up more Contracts is unfun. Also if I'm being honest, I don't like playing Treasures in your Action phase that much, so not sure how much future this has.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1318 on: March 29, 2019, 12:43:48 pm »
+1

Institute now costs 8 debt.


Bureaucracy is now an Event. I don't want it to be too cheap, because if the penalty of having to topdeck Provinces is never chosen, putting the token there at setup is meaningless.


Card from that weekly design contest thread. It's designed as a replacement for Fool, but of course the art is still kinda ugly.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1319 on: March 29, 2019, 01:30:32 pm »
+1

Hey aster I have an idea for your convert card, make it gain a card costing up to 3$ more than the trashed card instead. And then it would be more like the night version of mine. And it might still work for 5$ costing card cause after all it doesn’t give you extra treasure the turn you play it like mine would. And you could make only work with treasures only. You convert an action into a treasure, you could convert a treasure into a better treasure. But you couldn’t convert a treasure into a victory. If you do something like that you could probably get away with keeping it at 5$
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1320 on: March 29, 2019, 02:07:02 pm »
0

Hey aster I have an idea for your convert card, make it gain a card costing up to 3$ more than the trashed card instead. And then it would be more like the night version of mine. And it might still work for 5$ costing card cause after all it doesn’t give you extra treasure the turn you play it like mine would. And you could make only work with treasures only. You convert an action into a treasure, you could convert a treasure into a better treasure. But you couldn’t convert a treasure into a victory. If you do something like that you could probably get away with keeping it at 5$
I could, but it would be another card, and I am kind of happy with Convert. For this alternative version I think Coppers, and later Silvers, would still be the prime target, as it gets you the most out of the 3$ extra and doesn't decrease your Action card density. In a kingdom with just base treasures, compared to Mine, it doesn't cost an Action and can even be played after spending your last one, but falls +1$ short. That seems still similar. And if I stick with some version of Thimblerig, I already got a Mine variant anyhow. But thanks for the suggestion :)
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1321 on: March 29, 2019, 04:31:31 pm »
+1

Bureaucracy is now an Event. I don't want it to be too cheap, because if the penalty of having to topdeck Provinces is never chosen, putting the token there at setup is meaningless.


Not a very insightful post, but I think this is really cool!
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1322 on: March 29, 2019, 06:59:31 pm »
0

Bureaucracy is now an Event. I don't want it to be too cheap, because if the penalty of having to topdeck Provinces is never chosen, putting the token there at setup is meaningless.


Not a very insightful post, but I think this is really cool!

Nice! Glad you like it  :)
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segura

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1323 on: March 30, 2019, 07:28:32 am »
+1

I agree with Gazbag, Bureaucracy looks like a very good Event. I can roughly imagine 3 situations: you ignore it, you buy it shortly before you green or you buy it during building to still profit from the topdecking. And I have a hard time to fathom when you should do what which is always a sign for a good card.
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Udzu

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1324 on: April 30, 2019, 08:10:04 am »
+1

Hi Asper: I've just started playing with some of your awesome cards (just the Legacy ones so far) and I have a couple of questions. Sorry if they're already answered elsewhere in this megathread!
  • Zombie: can this also be a normal supply pile or are Zombies only used in games with Necromancer? [Update: just spotted that Zombie is listed under Extra cards so presumably the latter] How many Zombies are used? And can they be 'returned', or are they pile-less like the Nocturne Zombies?
  • Loyal Subjects: presumably these are pile-less, like Heirlooms and Shelters?
  • Assemble: can you choose which order the cards go on the deck, or does the Copper always go first (as it's gained first)?
Also is there some way to tell when you've updated existing cards, e.g. recosting them?  :)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 08:01:46 pm by Udzu »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1325 on: May 01, 2019, 06:32:18 am »
0

Hi Udzu,

glad to hear that you like the cards :)
I hope they will entertain you well.

About your questions:
  • There are 10 Zombies and they do not have their own pile. They only come with Necromancer.
  • There are 6 Loyal Subjects and they are pile-less like Shelters or Heirlooms.
  • Assemble is supposed to let you choose the order, but I see the wording is unclear about this.
  • I'm afraid there is no real "history" of cards, unless you count my posts in this thread whenever I announed a change. Even then, I might occasionally have changed a minor detail without posting about it specifically. Sorry.
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Udzu

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1326 on: May 01, 2019, 02:06:49 pm »
+1

Thanks! The cards have been really fun to play with so far, fitting seamlessly into kingdoms with published cards.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1327 on: May 02, 2019, 06:39:13 am »
0

Thanks! The cards have been really fun to play with so far, fitting seamlessly into kingdoms with published cards.

Glad to hear! Don't hesitate to leave any feedback, positive or negative :)
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Kudasai

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1328 on: May 05, 2019, 04:00:23 pm »
+1

You asked for some Feat suggestions in the "Weekly Design Contest", but posting a response here seems more appropriate. Anyways, I have a few random Feat suggestions:

-"Played same number of Action and Treasure cards in a turn."
-"Made $11 or more $." (Or some other high $ value.)
-"Started 4 turns between discard pile shuffles." (Or some number of turns that makes sense. Potentially hard to track.)
-"Gained a Curse." or "Gained a Curse during your turn." (The latter not effecting Curse Attacks.)


Really like the Feat idea. Some quick questions:

-Are you still planning to have multiple/different Feat boards that can be used?
-Have you considered having more Feats on the Feat Board? Like 4 Feats on the bottom, 3 Feats for the middle, and 2 Feats for the top.
-Have you considered having Fame cards care about what Fame Tier you've reached? (A Fame Tier being the rows on the Feat Board.)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 04:15:07 pm by Kudasai »
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Gubump

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1329 on: July 23, 2019, 09:48:29 pm »
0

Tithe gives infinite with Fortress. Sorry if somebody else has pointed that out already.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1330 on: December 29, 2019, 10:16:02 pm »
0

Oh no, all the images have disappeared :(
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herw

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1331 on: December 30, 2019, 01:23:43 am »
0

Oh no, all the images have disappeared :(
Sometimes it happens, that you lose your interests. I hope, that Asper will come back some day.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 10:29:49 am by herw »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1332 on: January 01, 2020, 01:04:03 am »
+8

I'm very sorry for this inconvenience.

I have had some discussions with a friend recently involving European copyright, art and similar topics, and it came to my attention that technically, by using the pictures of an artist without their permission, regardless of whether I was crediting them, I did a potentially punishable offense.

Because of this, because I work in an environment where I want to be on good terms with the artist community, and because I want artists to get their fair share, I decided that I couldn't just keep on using their art like that. Whoever has followed me on BGG might know that I did some other custom stuff there, too. Over there, I have been starting to co-op with artists to get my foreign art replaced with original art.

For Dominion, this entire process seems unfeasible. There are just so many cards, and I honestly am not as interested in the game anymore. Yesterday I played the first game in years. Approaching tens, perhaps over 100 artists about each work I currently use, picking replacements etc just seemed too much regarding it's not something I love anymore. So I decided to delete my imgur images without replacement, trusting that my cards were documented well enough by other users of the community to retrieve them, if there should be interest.

I still have all most of the files as they were posted here and am quite willing to send anybody interested a link where they can be downloaded for personal use. Also, If anybody likes to, feel free to do new art for them.

I hope this answers some questions I may have caused. Also, I hope you all had an excellent transition into the new year.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 08:10:16 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1333 on: January 02, 2020, 10:03:13 am »
+7

Added the card in text form to the OP.
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Amuzet

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1334 on: May 12, 2020, 02:56:41 pm »
0

So glad I found you after you or Rio took down your cards from the Steam Workshop.
I understand wanting to make sure you get the artist's permission or custom art to replace ones with which you can't get permission can be a pain.
I'd like to use them in my games while quarantine is in effect for me, so i'd be fine getting the art for most of them since you seem not interested in dominion at the moment.

And maybe a few rewording for some cards for my own personal use?
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1335 on: May 15, 2020, 10:44:51 am »
0

So glad I found you after you or Rio took down your cards from the Steam Workshop.
I understand wanting to make sure you get the artist's permission or custom art to replace ones with which you can't get permission can be a pain.
I'd like to use them in my games while quarantine is in effect for me, so i'd be fine getting the art for most of them since you seem not interested in dominion at the moment.

And maybe a few rewording for some cards for my own personal use?
I'm FailureFactory on Steam. Befriend me there and I can share the cards for personal use. I'm hardly online here anymore.
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tsunemi_i

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1336 on: December 11, 2021, 01:02:47 am »
+8

Hi, I made your Seasons and Spellcasters sets translated into Japanese text and printed them so that it can actually play!
(Created the designs for season-board and spell cards on my own.)



I have about two proposals. The first, the description of Ballroom(in Seasons set) change as follows by using the "Command" added in the "Dominion 2019 Errata and Rule tweaks".
http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=3767.msg16319#msg16319

  Ballroom
  $5 / Action-Command-Season
  In Spring and Summer: Play a non-Command Action card from the Supply that costs less than this, leaving it there. Gain a copy of it;
  In Fall and Winter: You may play an Action card from your hand twice.

The second, the description of Student(in Seasons set) change as follows by using the tokens managed individually by each player like as Sinister Plot.
I thought your idea of description of Student that enhance performance by player tokens is so good! However... for games that use the Way(in Menagerie set), it seems that become too powerful.

  Student
  $3 / Action-Season
  In Spring and Fall, +1 Action, add one your token on the Student Supply pile.
  In Summer and Winter, +1 Card each your tokens on the Student Supply pile.
  ------
  The start of Spring and Fall, remove all tokens on the Student Supply pile.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1337 on: January 18, 2022, 07:59:44 am »
+1

Hi there, sorry for reacting so much later than you wrote, I am not online here a lot anymore. These translations looks really amazing! 素敵ですよ。

I'm not sure why Ballroom would really need that change, but admittedly I have been out of the loop for a while. Ballroom doesn't emulate another card, it actually gains it and can only play it if that succeeds. I suppose one could rule out Command cards just to be sure, though: "Gain a non-Command Action from the Supply and play it."

I'm not sure how I feel about your change to Student - it's a very different card as you describe it. But of course, feel free to do whatever you like.

If you are interested, I made a few more card since. Just let me know.
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tsunemi_i

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1338 on: March 17, 2022, 07:51:14 am »
+5

Hello, It's been a while since the previous report, but I played with my friends playing with Season cards.
Even if mix Season cards with original Dominion sets, I haven't seen any serious contradictions in the rules or the game balance being disrupted so far, and it's a lot of fun to play. Sojourner, Lumberman, and Mistress were especially popular!

I think personally that introducing Season cards for all Kingdom cards in game would make it too complicated. Therefore, when we testplaying Season set, choose one of original Dominion pack, then use 5-6 cards from it, and 4-5 Season cards.
We've already tried combinations with Basic, Intrigue, Seaside, Cornucopia, Hinterland, Dark Ages, Guild, Adventures, and Renaissance each. When combined with a powerful cards in supply like the Renaissance set, the game often ended before Winter coming.

I took pictures of the scene playing with Season cards a few days ago. We're enjoying like this:

(* Sorry, I don't know how to keep a small image displayed here so that the viewer can click on the image to see it in full size ...)

The Season system and cards can seems to combined with the just-released "Dominion: Allies" without any problems. As soon as get a cards of Allies set that can actually play with, we'll give it a try. I'm really looking forward to play it!
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1339 on: April 16, 2022, 05:08:05 pm »
+2

Playing Allies and enjoying it quite a bit so far. It's funny that Dock is an official card now.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1340 on: June 19, 2022, 10:16:55 am »
+6

Decided to re-add the images for my cards. There might also be one or two newcomers here.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1341 on: June 19, 2022, 12:56:02 pm »
0



If by "it" you mean the trashed card, then this doesn't make sense because why trash a card if you're just going to immediately put it back into your hand? You might as well just reveal a card from your hand instead in that case. And if by "it" you mean the Silver(s), then that's grammatically incorrect in the case that you gain multiple Silvers, and you can simply say to gain the Silvers to your hand, i.e. "to gain a Silver to your hand per it costs (round down)."



This needs to reveal cards from your deck instead of discarding them. As worded, it would go infinitely if you don't have two Treasures in your deck.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1342 on: June 19, 2022, 01:08:10 pm »
+1

Welp, you are right on Lumberman. I was sloppy when recreating the image.

For Baroness, gaining a Silver and putting it into your hand is repeated, so I don't see how that's grammatically incorrect. But I see how it could be misunderstood.

Anyhow, glad to see the forums are still the same as when I left.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1343 on: June 19, 2022, 01:18:40 pm »
+1

Eh, I think I get what you mean for Baroness, the instructions should be in another order, with the "per 2 it costs" at the end. Still, your suggestion is better.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 01:20:24 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1344 on: June 19, 2022, 01:38:01 pm »
+1

To tell the truth, I've mostly been active as a custom creator for another game over the last years (Disney Villainous), and it has severely impacted my grasp of Dominion lingo (e.g. "putting them in your hand"... Or is it "into your hand"?). So I'm glad if I got half of them still right.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1345 on: June 19, 2022, 02:20:55 pm »
+1



This looks really weak to me. Without the Reaction, it's strictly worse* than Dungeon at the same price, and the Reaction helps your opponents just as much as it helps you, so it doesn't really add much to its strength.



Wording suggestion, taking a page from Artificer: "You may gain a card costing up to per differently named card revealed."



Wording suggestion to shorten the bottom part: "You may trash a card from your hand to gain a different card with up to the same cost." Taking a page from Swap. That said, Donald is changing effects like this that have to be on-buy to be "when you gain a card you bought" so as to make it so you trigger the effect after gaining the bought card instead of before.



Wording suggestion: "You may discard, in order, an Estate for +3 Cards, a Duchy for +$3, and/or a Victory card for +3 Actions."



The "from the __ pile" part is no longer necessary, you can just say "you may gain a Road." Non-Supply piles can now be gained without specifying the pile as long as they are called out by name (the "from its pile" part is still necessary for Swamp gaining Spirits because it doesn't call out a specific Spirit).



I know this used to be called Hunter but you changed the name because of Allies, but Tracker is also taken:



Donald X is avoiding while-in-play effects nowadays, so you could change this to "This turn, Attack cards you play don't affect other players" if you care about that sort of thing.



The general consensus is that Grand Market, which is weaker than this, is a $7.5 without the no-Coppers restriction, so this is too strong even without taking into account the ability to end the game more easily.

Plundering
2
Event
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.

As with Outskirts, you don't need "from the Spoils pile."

Parting
3
Event
Flip your Journey Token over. If it is face-up, gain a card costing up to $5.

I know this is really nitpicky, but the official term is "turn your Journey token over."

Buerocracy
5
Event
Move your Bureaucracy Token to another Supply pile. (When you gain a card from a pile with your Bureaucracy Token on it, put it onto your deck).
Setup: Each player puts their Bureaucracy Token on the Province pile.

The name of the Event is misspelled, while the name of the token is not (although token shouldn't be capitalized).

Improve
5
Event
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $3 more than it.

This name is taken:

Contest
6
Event
Gain a card of your choice from the Contest pile.
-
Setup: Make a Contestdeck out of 10 different unused Kingdom cards costing $5.

You left out the space between "Contest" and "deck" in the setup clause.

Isolation
Edict
When you gain a card, you may exile it and gain a Copper.

1. "Exile" should be capitalized.
2. More importantly, this can instantly empty the Copper pile and give a colossal amount of Coffers in combination with Guildhall. You should either say "when you gain a non-Copper card" or "when you gain a card other than with this."

Trade Agreement
Edict
When you shuffle your deck during the game, you may gain a Silver and shuffle it in.

I don't think "during the game" is necessary, unless that's there to specify that shuffling at game start doesn't count.

Monarchy
Edict
Once per turn, when you play an Action card, you may set it aside here to play it again. Trash it at the start of your cleanup phase.

This has tracking issues with Duration cards.

Spellcasters & Spells
When a card with the Spellcaster type is in the supply, 3 Spells are chosen at random and put next to the Supply. Spells are effects similar to Events, which never go into your deck, but which you can buy in your buy phase. Each player gets 5 Spell Tokens in their color. When you buy a Spell, you put one of your tokens on the Spell you bought. That Spell is now "prepared". The only way to actually perform what a Spell does is when a Spellcaster card tells you to „cast a Spell“. By casting a Spell, you do what it says, then remove your token from the Spell. Naturally, you can have up to five Spells prepared.

Can you have multiple of the same Spell prepared? I assume so since you have 5 Spell tokens but there are only 3 Spells.

Grimoire
4
Treasure – Spellcaster
+$1, +1 Buy; When you play this, you may cast a Spell. You may discard a card, for +$1.

Treasures no longer need "when you play this."



As with Plundering and Outskirts, no "from the Spoils pile" necessary.



This needs to reveal the discarded cards. See Shepherd.



"But never less than " isn't necessary, cards automatically can't have negative costs.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1346 on: June 19, 2022, 04:09:22 pm »
+1

I was afraid that I missed too many changes Donald made by now. For a lot of these cards, when I made them, stuff was different, for instance the fact cards couldn't cost less than 0$ still had to be specified, as had the pile non-Supply cards would come from.

To be entirely honest, I am not sure I care enough to give all of my cards the reprint treatment. Probably I shouldn't have bothered.

I'll still say something about the "update agnostic" points you made:

Border Guard:
If there is a Witch but no card that discards anything, Faithful Hound is strictly worse than Moat, so I don't think it means much if a card is strictly worse than another if its Reaction can't trigger. Also, the Reaction may be worse in games with several players, but in a 1v1 it's identical to Moat's. Apart from that, there's plenty of scenarios where non-Durations are better than Durations, so I'll leave it at that.

Sawmill:
I think I had such a wording, and I recall people complaining that it seemed as if you would gain multiple cards costing 1$ or 0$. But I suppose if Donald does it, so may I.

Emperor:
Yeah, this may be too strong. I considered pricing this at 8$, which would drive home the point that you strip yourself of buying a Province when getting it, while still shortening the game as if you did. Because that was the idea: You might have been able to get a Province, so if you get one of these, you not only skip that, you actually get to use the card less long. Anyhow, I have to playtest this more.

Thanks for alerting me of Tracker and Improve. It's a constant struggle... I think I lost about 10 card names over the years...

Also thank you for the notes on the Edicts, especially Isolation. I think it used to work on Curses only, so I forgot to restrict it when I made that change. The idea is of course to allow its use for Victory cards you buy.
Anyhow, the Edict idea doesn't feel as fresh now as it used to, which is kind of why I didn't make art for it again.

Regarding Spells, yes, preparing the same several times is possible.

Mistress:
Ah yeah, Dominion discards several cards so you only see the top one. I forgot that. Thanks for pointing it out.

Edit: Oh, and thanks for pointing out the "gain a card you bought" thing. I never knew. Seems like a change that will make quite a few interactions more clear.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 04:12:57 pm by Asper »
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Gubump

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1347 on: June 19, 2022, 04:16:15 pm »
+1

Border Guard:
If there is a Witch but no card that discards anything, Faithful Hound is strictly worse than Moat, so I don't think it means much if a card is strictly worse than another if its Reaction can't trigger.

Difference is, Moat and Faithful Hound still have the same on-play effects. Border Patrol is to Dungeon as Moat with a +Buy would be to Wharf, and imo that comparison makes it clear that Border Patrol is too weak. Border Patrol's reaction is almost strictly worse than that of Moat, and it's on play effect is worse than Moat's as well. If Lab + discard two cards was the same strength or stronger than +2 Cards, Dungeon would be on a similar power level to Wharf.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 04:21:04 pm by Gubump »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1348 on: July 01, 2022, 03:18:40 am »
+1

I'm not sure why Ballroom would really need that change, but admittedly I have been out of the loop for a while. Ballroom doesn't emulate another card, it actually gains it and can only play it if that succeeds. I suppose one could rule out Command cards just to be sure, though: "Gain a non-Command Action from the Supply and play it."

I know it's been several months, but in case you hadn't figured it out, the Ballroom issue is a potential loop with Captain, cost reduction, and the -2 cost token. With the -2 cost token on Captain, and just a single cost-reducer, Captain costs and Ballroom costs . This allows Captain to play a Ballroom from the supply, which then gains and plays Captain, which plays a Ballroom from the supply, which gains and plays a Captain, which plays a Ballroom... up until the Captain pile empties.

As for giving Ballroom the Command type itself, that would prevent using Overlord with Ballroom to straight up gain s instead of just playing them (and Captain doing the same with some cost reduction)
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1349 on: July 20, 2022, 09:17:27 am »
0

Border Guard:
If there is a Witch but no card that discards anything, Faithful Hound is strictly worse than Moat, so I don't think it means much if a card is strictly worse than another if its Reaction can't trigger.

Difference is, Moat and Faithful Hound still have the same on-play effects.
You said Border Patrol is strictly worse than Dungeon without its Reaction.

There is two ways to understand this:

The literal interpretation where you just pretend that the Reaction wasn't on the card, as you are doing for Faithful Hound and Moat. That interpretation is talking about a hypothetical which isn't the case, as the card DOES have the Reaction. It's factually true, but inconsequential.

Or you talk about the Reaction not triggering, in which case my point still stands. Faithful Hound and Moat have different triggers, a game may feature only one, in which case one card is strictly better than the other, or feature both to varying degrees, where neither is strictly better, or may feature none, where they are identical. A game may not feature Boarder Patrol's trigger, making it strictly worse than Dungeon, or may feature it, making neither strictly better.

Is your point that if there can be games where Border Patrol is strictly worse than Dungeon, there should be games where they are strictly the same? Or that there must be games where Border Patrol is striclty better? Why?

I'm not even saying that Border Patrol couldn't use a buff, you may very well be right about that.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 09:21:02 am by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1350 on: July 20, 2022, 09:19:15 am »
0

I'm not sure why Ballroom would really need that change, but admittedly I have been out of the loop for a while. Ballroom doesn't emulate another card, it actually gains it and can only play it if that succeeds. I suppose one could rule out Command cards just to be sure, though: "Gain a non-Command Action from the Supply and play it."

I know it's been several months, but in case you hadn't figured it out, the Ballroom issue is a potential loop with Captain, cost reduction, and the -2 cost token. With the -2 cost token on Captain, and just a single cost-reducer, Captain costs and Ballroom costs . This allows Captain to play a Ballroom from the supply, which then gains and plays Captain, which plays a Ballroom from the supply, which gains and plays a Captain, which plays a Ballroom... up until the Captain pile empties.

As for giving Ballroom the Command type itself, that would prevent using Overlord with Ballroom to straight up gain s instead of just playing them (and Captain doing the same with some cost reduction)

Right, so the clean way would to give it the Command type and also not play cards it gains if they have the Command type, like Captain does? I can fix that.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1351 on: July 20, 2022, 02:23:24 pm »
0

Border Guard:
If there is a Witch but no card that discards anything, Faithful Hound is strictly worse than Moat, so I don't think it means much if a card is strictly worse than another if its Reaction can't trigger.

Difference is, Moat and Faithful Hound still have the same on-play effects.
You said Border Patrol is strictly worse than Dungeon without its Reaction.

There is two ways to understand this:

The literal interpretation where you just pretend that the Reaction wasn't on the card, as you are doing for Faithful Hound and Moat. That interpretation is talking about a hypothetical which isn't the case, as the card DOES have the Reaction. It's factually true, but inconsequential.

Or you talk about the Reaction not triggering, in which case my point still stands. Faithful Hound and Moat have different triggers, a game may feature only one, in which case one card is strictly better than the other, or feature both to varying degrees, where neither is strictly better, or may feature none, where they are identical. A game may not feature Boarder Patrol's trigger, making it strictly worse than Dungeon, or may feature it, making neither strictly better.

Is your point that if there can be games where Border Patrol is strictly worse than Dungeon, there should be games where they are strictly the same? Or that there must be games where Border Patrol is striclty better? Why?

I'm not even saying that Border Patrol couldn't use a buff, you may very well be right about that.

Basically all I'm trying to say is that Border Patrol is laughably weak compared to Dungeon, which costs the same. Getting the effect now and next turn is huge compared to a Reaction that helps your opponents as much as it helps you. As I said in my last comment, Border Patrol is to Dungeon as Moat is to Wharf (approximately), except even worse because the Reaction is strictly worse than that of Moat!

Moat and Faithful Hound having boards where one is strictly better than the other is fine because their effects are actually somewhat close. Moat and Faithful Hound have the exact same on-play effects. A game with no Attacks leads to Border Patrol looking like a complete joke next to Dungeon, but the same can rarely be said of boards with ways to discard Faithful Hound but no Attacks or vice-versa. The fact that the Reaction even helps your opponents instead of just you means that it's really weak even in games that DO have Attacks.

It's fine for it to be strictly worse than Dungeon with no Attacks on the board, but if it's going to be so much worse than Dungeon with no Attacks, it ought to have a waaayyy better Reaction than protecting yourself at the cost of needing to have a Border Patrol while giving that same protection to your opponents for free.

Also, you pointed out an issue with it yourself, namely that the Reaction ceases to be strictly worse than Moat's in 1v1 games. That means its already low powerlevel drops by a not-insignificant amount as soon as you add a 3rd player. Card power levels shouldn't scale that poorly with player count.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 02:40:24 pm by Gubump »
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