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Author Topic: Rules of Mafia  (Read 7357 times)

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sudgy

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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2013, 04:54:37 pm »

Have we experienced a player blatantly breaking game rules? I don't think this is something we need to be prepared for and if it happens the moderator should deal with it. But I seriously doubt such a rule will be needed.

We have had people threaten to, and it usually detracts from the fun of the game.  I think there needs to be something that stops people from even threatening to.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Robz888

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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2013, 04:55:54 pm »

I kind of see what situations you're talking about.  Imagine a situation with 4 people:  1 scum, 1 cop, 2 VTs.  The cop has a successful investigation on mafia.  He claims his result, breaks a rule to get mod-killed, so the VT's know he's telling the truth, then lynch mafia.  Yes, that sort of situation should be stopped.  But I don't think we need this rule for that situation... moderators already have the power to handle it appropriately.  And whether or not that should result in a faction loss is unclear.  Perhaps it results in a mod-kill with no flip?  I'm not sure, and I don't think we should have a rule that definitively says this one way or the other.

Existing protocol already sorts this out. In case of modkill, whether you immediately proceed to night or not is based on what will penalize the offending faction. If a mafia member is modkilled, the day continues, giving town another chance to kill mafia. If a town member is modkilled, it's customary to progress the day to night immediately, essentially depriving town of their lynch and giving mafia another shot.
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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2013, 04:57:22 pm »

The point of me putting out this rule is to stop people from even trying in the first place.  Something else that could be said, I don't know if it would work, is that people who purposely break the rules don't win even if their faction wins.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

ashersky

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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2013, 05:35:13 pm »

The point of me putting out this rule is to stop people from even trying in the first place.  Something else that could be said, I don't know if it would work, is that people who purposely break the rules don't win even if their faction wins.

Clearly we need to not talk about ongoing games, right?  That IS a clear rule of these forums.
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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2013, 05:37:39 pm »

I say leave it up to the mod to decide what to do if someone purposefully breaks the rules. Sometimes it's accidental (and I will name names: Archetype) and as far as I have seen, the mods have handled things well.
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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2013, 06:15:53 pm »

The point of me putting out this rule is to stop people from even trying in the first place.  Something else that could be said, I don't know if it would work, is that people who purposely break the rules don't win even if their faction wins.

Clearly we need to not talk about ongoing games, right?  That IS a clear rule of these forums.

agreed!
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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2013, 06:17:47 pm »

I basically believe that Article III.6 covers this, and any other rules violations:

"Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill"

That implies to me that each Rule Violation is an independent infraction whose consequences will be dictated by the Mod (the only person responsible for doling out punishments) according to the severity of the infraction. The "up to and including" is not a maximum threshold, merely generic (albeit generally severe) consequence. One that nobody wants to see occur, but will if necessary. If the rule infraction dictates a more severe punishment, it's in the hands of the Mod to declare and enforce whatever punishment they feel fits the crime.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 06:19:08 pm by Galzria »
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Blitz:
TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
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Total Losses: 7

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Total Losses: 10

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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2013, 01:11:12 pm »

Although this came to a head in a current game, I'm not really talking about that game.  This isn't specific to that game (though the idea that it's an issue is derived from conversation therein).  Regardless of anything that's come happened up until now, we should have a handle on Rules Violations.

I think the issue might be that we have a process for handling rules violations that operates within the confines of the game.  Basically, There are 2 ways to handle rules:

1. Rules are guidelines, with penalties for disobeying them (i.e. "sports").  In this case, rules violations need clear penalties, and should be expected to happen variously (either accidentally or for advantage...since they're well-defined and a player can decide what's best for them/their team)

2. Disobeying rules is "cheating", and will not be tolerated (i.e. "board-game").  In this case, rules violations do not need clear "penalties".  Intentional violation of rules should result in being banned from the community.  Unintentional violations should be dealt with as appropriate, including at least a warning to "obey the rules".
-In this case if a rules violation occurs, the mod is responsible for determining if balance can be "restored", or the game needs scrapped.
-If an intentional violation occurs, the player is removed from the game, and the mod tries to restore balance/scraps the game.  Then we would probably want community guidelines for how cheating is dealt with (i.e. at what point do we ban someone from playing)

Now, there's a trick of determining if a rules violation is intentional in there.  But that can be handled by the community moderators.

As mafia is essentially a type of board-game, and this is a board-game forum, I'm in favor of option 2.  But, saying "rules violations will result in punishment up to and including mod-kill" I think pushes option 1.  Basically if you punish someone in-game for actions taken in-game, then it's just another rule.  If you want to prevent rules-violations, you have to take action out-of-game to prevent it.  I would personally alter Article III.6 to state: "Rules violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including being banned from the community."

That said, there's a place for game rules that CAN be violated.  There are board games where you can cheat and you get punished for it.  Then there are games that are a little more ambiguous (i.e. they give ways to handle illegal game positions, but don't explicitly allow you to do that).  Some people view those situations as "allowed cheating".  To be clear, I don't think there's a problem with that.  However, if you bring someone who views it as cheating together with someone who doesn't there's gonna be issues.  As a group which plays games together, we need to make it clear how we view that situation.
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Robz888

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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2013, 05:10:10 pm »

So, really, ongoing games can't be discussed. Like, really, seriously. Please stop doing it.

Anyone who has a concern about rule violations in ongoing games should consult with the moderators of that game, or the Board Moderators (note: Do not consult directly with board moderators if they are IN the game).

Keep in mind that a big goal in mafia is to permit a maximum amount of discussion, because there's strategy and meta strategy. I have always maintained that it is not illegal to threaten to break the rules. If the mod of a given game wants to have a more "restricted" conversation, he should specify that in his own game rules.
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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2013, 05:12:06 pm »

And I will also note that we don't seem to have a problem with serial rule breaking. I don't know of an occasion in which the rules were broken deliberately or egregiously.

Breaking the rules has come up of course as an in-game conversation, sure, but so long as it remains a topic of in-game conversation, I continue to see ntohing wrong with it. Anyone who has questions about actual rules violations in a game should PM the moderator, who will make a ruling or consult with Galz or I as fitting.
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yuma

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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2013, 05:14:04 pm »

can this thread be locked until games being alluded to are over?

I know that means that we won't be able to talk about other mafia rules in this thread in the mean time, but that is what we get for talking about ongoing games... A small price worth paying.
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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2013, 05:15:03 pm »

I would say I wasn't talking about ongoing games but was talking about what to do in the event of that happening, but I'll lock the thread.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2013, 10:39:05 pm »

Unlocking the thread now that both games are over.

The main thing for me is that I feel like threatening to break rules ruins that section of the game for me, even if they never intended to actually break them, so I feel like something should be done in some way to fix that.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Robz888

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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2013, 10:47:54 pm »

The main thing for me is that I feel like threatening to break rules ruins that section of the game for me, even if they never intended to actually break them, so I feel like something should be done in some way to fix that.

I would rather not restrict this legitimate strategic space of the game, though, unless it was annoying to like absolutely everyone.
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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2013, 10:50:04 pm »

I think it's incredibly anti-civil personally, but since I doubt we'll see such actions banned, my hope is that it becomes ignored since it's clear no-one actually follows through. If a player does, and the mod feels it intentional, it should be within their power to deal a punishment to that player's team, if they so choose.
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ashersky

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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2013, 11:26:10 pm »

I think it's incredibly anti-civil personally, but since I doubt we'll see such actions banned, my hope is that it becomes ignored since it's clear no-one actually follows through. If a player does, and the mod feels it intentional, it should be within their power to deal a punishment to that player's team, if they so choose.

This is true, and should be the case, generally.

Breaking the rules intentionally to help their own team, as in the example of role claiming when it isn't allowed to get modkilled to let town know who to kill or something, feels differently than breaking the rules intentionally to be spiteful, though.  I think there needs to be some leeway there.

As noted by Robz, I've used the threatening to break the rule thing as a tactic previously, with no intention of doing it.  On a smaller scale, there was a game where I didn't post for 72 hours or more, which is technically against the rules.  There is strategy space there.
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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2013, 11:46:58 pm »

I think it's incredibly anti-civil personally, but since I doubt we'll see such actions banned, my hope is that it becomes ignored since it's clear no-one actually follows through. If a player does, and the mod feels it intentional, it should be within their power to deal a punishment to that player's team, if they so choose.

This is true, and should be the case, generally.

Breaking the rules intentionally to help their own team, as in the example of role claiming when it isn't allowed to get modkilled to let town know who to kill or something, feels differently than breaking the rules intentionally to be spiteful, though.  I think there needs to be some leeway there.

As noted by Robz, I've used the threatening to break the rule thing as a tactic previously, with no intention of doing it.  On a smaller scale, there was a game where I didn't post for 72 hours or more, which is technically against the rules.  There is strategy space there.

I would still say that things like this shouldn't be done, while they may help people win, it doesn't always help people have fun.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2013, 11:51:11 pm »

I think it's incredibly anti-civil personally, but since I doubt we'll see such actions banned, my hope is that it becomes ignored since it's clear no-one actually follows through. If a player does, and the mod feels it intentional, it should be within their power to deal a punishment to that player's team, if they so choose.

This is true, and should be the case, generally.

Breaking the rules intentionally to help their own team, as in the example of role claiming when it isn't allowed to get modkilled to let town know who to kill or something, feels differently than breaking the rules intentionally to be spiteful, though.  I think there needs to be some leeway there.

As noted by Robz, I've used the threatening to break the rule thing as a tactic previously, with no intention of doing it.  On a smaller scale, there was a game where I didn't post for 72 hours or more, which is technically against the rules.  There is strategy space there.

I would still say that things like this shouldn't be done, while they may help people win, it doesn't always help people have fun.

This was the argument Voltaire and I were having.

It comes down to a personal decision: what's more important, winning or having fun?

For me, winning is having fun.  So winning wins every time, and Luis Suarez is my hero.
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Town: 47 Games, 24 Wins
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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2013, 12:02:52 am »

I think it's incredibly anti-civil personally, but since I doubt we'll see such actions banned, my hope is that it becomes ignored since it's clear no-one actually follows through. If a player does, and the mod feels it intentional, it should be within their power to deal a punishment to that player's team, if they so choose.

This is true, and should be the case, generally.

Breaking the rules intentionally to help their own team, as in the example of role claiming when it isn't allowed to get modkilled to let town know who to kill or something, feels differently than breaking the rules intentionally to be spiteful, though.  I think there needs to be some leeway there.

As noted by Robz, I've used the threatening to break the rule thing as a tactic previously, with no intention of doing it.  On a smaller scale, there was a game where I didn't post for 72 hours or more, which is technically against the rules.  There is strategy space there.

I would still say that things like this shouldn't be done, while they may help people win, it doesn't always help people have fun.

This was the argument Voltaire and I were having.

It comes down to a personal decision: what's more important, winning or having fun?

For me, winning is having fun.  So winning wins every time, and Luis Suarez is my hero.

For me, winning is having fun.  But situations like this detract from the experience to me.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2013, 03:02:50 pm »

I think it's incredibly anti-civil personally, but since I doubt we'll see such actions banned, my hope is that it becomes ignored since it's clear no-one actually follows through. If a player does, and the mod feels it intentional, it should be within their power to deal a punishment to that player's team, if they so choose.

This is true, and should be the case, generally.

Breaking the rules intentionally to help their own team, as in the example of role claiming when it isn't allowed to get modkilled to let town know who to kill or something, feels differently than breaking the rules intentionally to be spiteful, though.  I think there needs to be some leeway there.

As noted by Robz, I've used the threatening to break the rule thing as a tactic previously, with no intention of doing it.  On a smaller scale, there was a game where I didn't post for 72 hours or more, which is technically against the rules.  There is strategy space there.

I would still say that things like this shouldn't be done, while they may help people win, it doesn't always help people have fun.

This was the argument Voltaire and I were having.

It comes down to a personal decision: what's more important, winning or having fun?

For me, winning is having fun.  So winning wins every time, and Luis Suarez is my hero.

hang on...SUAREZ??!

Suarez is a cheat though, a tried and documented cheat and a scumbag to boot. None of that has anything to do with playing to win, its cheating to win.

Biting an opponent isn't about winning
Throwing racial slurs at opponents isn't about winning
Getting Banned for 18 games doesn't exactly count as Winning does it?

Depriving your team of the best player for large chunks of the season due to incomprehensible actions has the OPPOSITE effect of winning.

Why would you not pick someone who wins lots of things as your hero rather than someone who just cheats a lot?

There are so many better examples of players who actually play to win (rather than playing for fun) than the second biggest scumbag in the premier league!
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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2013, 03:34:55 pm »

I was referring solely to his game-saving handball in the World Cup vs. Ghana.  I actually couldn't tell you anything else about his career.

But that handball is the perfect example of intentionally breaking the rules and accepting the punishment in an effort to help your team win.
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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2013, 03:55:04 pm »

I was referring solely to his game-saving handball in the World Cup vs. Ghana.  I actually couldn't tell you anything else about his career.

But that handball is the perfect example of intentionally breaking the rules and accepting the punishment in an effort to help your team win.

Rules are to be followed, not abused.  If the punishment isn't enough to make you not want to break the rule, the punishment needs to be worse.  In an ideal game, absolutely NO rules should be broken.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2013, 03:58:18 pm »

sometimes breaking rules occasionally being optimal play is intended to be part of the game, like it is in basketball, and arguably soccer too.

in mafia, I don't think that is intended. It may be true that it currently can be optimal play in certain situations. If this is the case, that is bad and should be fixed.
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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2013, 03:59:52 pm »

sometimes breaking rules occasionally being optimal play is intended to be part of the game, like it is in basketball, and arguably soccer too.

in mafia, I don't think that is intended. It may be true that it currently can be optimal play in certain situations. If this is the case, that is bad and should be fixed.

This is my stance on it. I like the solution mcmc created in DW - intentional rulebreaking may be punished at mod's discretion. Mod retains the power to invent a punishment that will be worse that expected for the team cheating intentionally. This leaves it up to mod judgement, which is fine by me.
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Re: Rules of Mafia
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2013, 04:05:27 pm »

sometimes breaking rules occasionally being optimal play is intended to be part of the game, like it is in basketball, and arguably soccer too.

in mafia, I don't think that is intended. It may be true that it currently can be optimal play in certain situations. If this is the case, that is bad and should be fixed.

This is my stance on it. I like the solution mcmc created in DW - intentional rulebreaking may be punished at mod's discretion. Mod retains the power to invent a punishment that will be worse that expected for the team cheating intentionally. This leaves it up to mod judgement, which is fine by me.

Then rule 3.6 should be changed, which I would be okay with.  I read it as "The most severe punishment possible is a modkill."
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm
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