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[Jorbles]

Never brag guys. As soon as you brag you will open a deck containing a rare and 4 commons that you already have.

[Titandrake]

How bad is Holy Wrath?!

Also Argent Protector is amazing!

Holy Wrath is inconsistent, but I'd still take it over Ancient Mage at that point. If you hit a 3 cost, it's an expensive Hammer of Wrath, but Hammer is a nice card in arena anyways.

Argent Protector vs Consecration is a tough call to make, passing on Consecration is always very hard for me to do.

[KingZog3]

How bad is Holy Wrath?!

Also Argent Protector is amazing!

Holy Wrath is inconsistent, but I'd still take it over Ancient Mage at that point. If you hit a 3 cost, it's an expensive Hammer of Wrath, but Hammer is a nice card in arena anyways.

Argent Protector vs Consecration is a tough call to make, passing on Consecration is always very hard for me to do.

I find that in arena there are lots of high health minions that people like to pick. Consecration is amazing with other cards that can hit, survive then finish damaged minions with Consecration. But alone I don't think it'll win games. But I think vs. ancient mage Consecration wins nearly every time.

[Grujah]

I don't know if I will drop a lot of $ any time soon to play the constructed competitively, probably just stick to Arena for now and see what this expansion coming out this summer does to shake things up.

If you are good enough at arena and enjoy it enough to keep playing, your collection will build itself in no time, so you most likely won't have to spend any money.

Yeah, I am starting to gather that which is why I'm holding off on dropping money on packs, spending money on Arena is much more efficient, I've spent 10 bucks to rebuy into Arenas so far and Ive opened dozens of packs.  My collection is starting to look respectable(3 legendaries, none of the great ones though).  A few more weeks with some good pack opening I figure I should be able to field several of the competitive decks.

Or just play Zoolock ...

Or not because then I hate you.

The QQ tears of my Zoolock enemies are delicious.  Heck, I didn't even realize I wasn't playing "proper" Zoolock and was putting in Yetis and other random cards, but still winning with the basic principle that all my stuff should be under <$5.

Even though I do have most of Zoolock (everything cept Young Priestesses) I do not play it, I play Hunter UTH Agro mainly (which is still strong IMO even with nerf) and some other decks as well. I admit that I do QQ when playing against Zoolock. It's mainly cuz of these two things:

1) When I see a Lock opponent, I am never sure how to mulligan. You need such different cards against Zoolock (or MurLock) and against Handlock and I always assume I'm playing the wrong one

2) Whenever Zoolock overcommits and I need one card to screw him, and I fail to draw it (even with Multiple Trackings) ITS FREAKING FRUSTRATING.

3) It's generally frustrating to lose a turn before you establish control, or when their only out is like: Soulfire (discard non-soulfire), Soulfire, draw, Pitlord, and they manage to do it. And that happens a lot against zoolock.

 

[HiveMindEmulator]

How bad is Holy Wrath?!

It's bad, but not that bad. In a typical arena deck, it's on average a little more damage than Hammer for 1 mana more, which is definitely not something you prefer, but it's playable since at least it's a cantrip, if an expensive one. It's much better in high curve decks. People play it in constructed giants Paladin. Drawing Molten Giant with it is amazing.

He just really, really suffers from the fact that he's a 5/3 for 6, and trades with a lot of 2 drops.

It's not just this. It's the fact that it requires a combo. If it didn't require the combo, it might be playable. But as is, you can't really play it until like turn 8 or something.

Thalnos and (for Miracle Rogue) Edwin increase the deck strength a lot, but you can get by without them.

I'm currently running a variant of Miracle that I call "Midrange Miracle". I've removed the weaker spells like Shiv and third AoE spell, and cheaper minions like Thalnos, Edwin, Coldlight/Acolyte/Hoarder; and I've replaced them with solid normal midrange minions including 2x Farseer, 2x Teacher, 2x Azure Drake.

This makes it a little harder to churn through the deck, but it has enough positive benefits to more than offset that.
1. It allows you to do more damage in the midgame, so you don't need a full double-Shadowstep combo. Usually one Shaodwstep is enough. You can even win without Leeroy by using Cold Blood + Conceal with multiple minions on board.
2. It makes it easier to keep up in the early and midgame, so you don't have to spend your turns just playing hero power and Shiv while your opponent builds his board. In particular, the Warrior matchup is usually bad for standard Miracle Rogue, but if you're playing reasonable minions, your opponent has to take some damage axing them and won't have all the spare mana to armor up every turn to get out of burst kill range.
3. The midgame minions may draw some removal, which leaves less for your Auctioneer.

[Jdaki]

I think the fact you don't know how much damage it is going to deal is really terrible. At least with Hammer you can fire it at whatever needs killing, here you don't know if it will flub, or overkill terribly or whatever. I could see it being better with a guaranteed heavy curve deck, but in arena especially, you don't want high curve- you want low- I can't see how on average it will be more damage than Hammer- half your deck probably is 3 cost or less, though I admit, that is leaning higher with Paladin because all the value 4's.

Currently trying out Warlock in arena again- I normally avoid because I have had terrible runs with him, however this time have a mini zoo style deck and it's gone a few wins- lack of cheap taunt is a problem though.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I think the fact you don't know how much damage it is going to deal is really terrible. At least with Hammer you can fire it at whatever needs killing, here you don't know if it will flub, or overkill terribly or whatever. I could see it being better with a guaranteed heavy curve deck, but in arena especially, you don't want high curve- you want low- I can't see how on average it will be more damage than Hammer- half your deck probably is 3 cost or less, though I admit, that is leaning higher with Paladin because all the value 4's.

It's a terrible card for tempo (Hammer is also bad tempo, btw), but it's never card disadvantage, and sometimes advantage. If you get "lucky" and kill your 3-4 health target, you gained a card advantage. If you don't, and have to trade a minion into it to finish it off, you still came out card-neutral, and probably managed to trade up (maybe even still gained card advantage because you only needed to use a token to finish off the minion). It's below-average for sure, but it's probably around the same power level as Auctioneer, better than Ancient Mage.

[nkirbit]

Oh wow, Kidnapper requires a combo too??  I did not even know that.

Man, that card is bad.

[Kirian]

Is there a "canonical" Zoolock or Miracle Rogue deck list somewhere?

[KingZog3]

Is there a "canonical" Zoolock or Miracle Rogue deck list somewhere?

Miracle Rogue is pretty much 2 Auctioneers and most of the rogue spells.

[blueblimp]

Is there a "canonical" Zoolock or Miracle Rogue deck list somewhere?

LiquidHearth's power rank has example decks for each class:
http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/2596-hs-class-power-ranks-may-2014

That said, the miracle rogue they have there is a bit out of date compared to what streamers use and what you see on ladder. I'm currently using a list that Kolento was using as of a few days ago, except I substitute Yeti for Edwin (because I don't have Ed):

Backstab x2
Preparation x2
Shadowstep x2
Cold Blood x2
Conceal
Deadly Poison x2
Blade Flurry
Eviscerate x2
Sap
Shiv x2
Bloodmage Thalnos
Fan of Knives x2
Earthen Ring Farseer x2
Edwin VanCleef
SI:7 Agent x2
Leeroy Jenkins
Azure Drake x2
Gadgetzan Auctioneer x2

Be warned that this list is weak against handlock, for example because of only one Sap, but you still have a chance to win if they don't draw enough taunts. Having two Fans of Knives and two Earthen Ring Farseers makes it quite nice against board-flooding aggro decks like Zoo, aggro Paladin, aggro Mage.

[ashersky]

Just lost to a pally that dropped Rag - Sylvanas - Leeroy in a span of five turns.

In casual.

Casual.

Really?  Why?  I'm just trying to do quests for cash, but even casual games have become "legendaries or gtfo."

[Jdaki]

It's the end of the season- all the Legendary ranked players probably just play in Casual now, because why would they play in Ranked?

[Kirian]

It's the end of the season- all the Legendary ranked players probably just play in Casual now, because why would they play in Ranked?

This.  For the first half of the month, it's better for those of us who are neither pay-to-win nor play-all-day to play casual.  By about halfway through the month, it's better to play in ranked.

This is a major problem with a ranking system that resets every month instead of just having a gradual decay.  And I think I just said that Goko's rating system is better than Blizzard's.

[theory]

8 wins. I think the Kidnappers cost me one of them, but they were useful in some of the other games. Mostly in situations where I was playing ahead though. Still 175 gold, a golden common and a deck is nothing to complain about.

This is one of the reasons some deceptively good-looking cards are not actually good.  If it only helps you "win more", it doesn't really change any losses to wins.

[HiveMindEmulator]

New Mage secret: https://twitter.com/PlayHearthstone/status/472029659345846272/photo/1
Seems pretty good, but then again, if they hex and then kill your minion, you just get a couple of frogs... And it's probably not great for aggro, but having a chance at 5 Leeroys? That's enticing

[nkirbit]

New Mage secret: https://twitter.com/PlayHearthstone/status/472029659345846272/photo/1
Seems pretty good, but then again, if they hex and then kill your minion, you just get a couple of frogs... And it's probably not great for aggro, but having a chance at 5 Leeroys? That's enticing

The change that secrets can't be activated on your own turn makes this card much, much worse.

It's interesting.  It's good value, but horrible tempo.  It's really pushed as far towards value as it can be.. it's a three drop that does absolutely nothing until you spend further mana on it at a later point.  If the game ever turns into a bunch of midrange decks mashing creatures at each other I can see this as an option, but this surely isn't an option against decks like miracle rogue.

[KingZog3]

New Mage secret: https://twitter.com/PlayHearthstone/status/472029659345846272/photo/1
Seems pretty good, but then again, if they hex and then kill your minion, you just get a couple of frogs... And it's probably not great for aggro, but having a chance at 5 Leeroys? That's enticing

The change that secrets can't be activated on your own turn makes this card much, much worse.

It's interesting.  It's good value, but horrible tempo.  It's really pushed as far towards value as it can be.. it's a three drop that does absolutely nothing until you spend further mana on it at a later point.  If the game ever turns into a bunch of midrange decks mashing creatures at each other I can see this as an option, but this surely isn't an option against decks like miracle rogue.

I think it'll get much more play than any of the other mage secrets though. It does have amazing value and that alone might be enough to see it some decks.

EDIT: New secrets have the added ability of the opponent having to check for them. that could also mean extra play options for the card.

[theory]

Personally I think secrets are somewhat undervalued, since their strength is not just their actual effect but the possibility of your opponent making a correct but suboptimal play in response.  In other words, Sklansky's fundamental theorem of poker.

[Jorbles]

Personally I think secrets are somewhat undervalued, since their strength is not just their actual effect but the possibility of your opponent making a correct but suboptimal play in response.  In other words, Sklansky's fundamental theorem of poker.

This is a really good point. For instance, I was playing an opponent who had just played a secret in arena in the late game, and I tested for Ice Barrier, Vapourize, Counterspell, realized it was probably Mirror Entity, and then couldn't play my Ancient of War for two turns until I drew a 2 drop (I didn't have any other minions in hand) that I was okay with him getting a copy of. If it turned out he had played an Ice Block there instead of Mirror Entity I would have still felt like I made the right play in a bad situation, but he would have gotten a lot of value out of that secret.

[KingZog3]

Personally I think secrets are somewhat undervalued, since their strength is not just their actual effect but the possibility of your opponent making a correct but suboptimal play in response.  In other words, Sklansky's fundamental theorem of poker.

This is a really good point. For instance, I was playing an opponent who had just played a secret in arena in the late game, and I tested for Ice Barrier, Vapourize, Counterspell, realized it was probably Mirror Entity, and then couldn't play my Ancient of War for two turns until I drew a 2 drop (I didn't have any other minions in hand) that I was okay with him getting a copy of. If it turned out he had played an Ice Block there instead of Mirror Entity I would have still felt like I made the right play in a bad situation, but he would have gotten a lot of value out of that secret.

For him Ancient of War is only a 5/5. The bonus comes as a buff. But the point still holds.

[HiveMindEmulator]

^I think battlecries that affect the minion itself still get copied by Mirror Entity, so AoW comes out as a 5/10 taunt for the Mage too. It's one of those weird things about the Hearthstone rules that aren't documented anywhere.

[ashersky]

^I think battlecries that affect the minion itself still get copied by Mirror Entity, so AoW comes out as a 5/10 taunt for the Mage too. It's one of those weird things about the Hearthstone rules that aren't documented anywhere.

I think that's how Faceless works, but not mirror entity.  I used it last night and can't recall.

[popsofctown]

^I think battlecries that affect the minion itself still get copied by Mirror Entity, so AoW comes out as a 5/10 taunt for the Mage too. It's one of those weird things about the Hearthstone rules that aren't documented anywhere.

I think that's how Faceless works, but not mirror entity.  I used it last night and can't recall.

Secrets trigger after battlecries and deathrattles, but before other triggers, to the best of my knowledge.  So if your opponent has sword of divine and plays Injured Blademaster, you get a 4/3 and he gets a 5/4.

[Kirian]

So, under things I was not expecting:  Rogue plays

Preparation
Leeroy
Shadowstep
Leeroy
Shadowstep
Leeroy

...for 18 damage.