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[Kirian]

Approxiamtely this deck, with two extra Swipes.  I know I'm missing something though.

http://www.hearthpwn.com/deckbuilder/druid#42:1;95:1;131:1;138:1;149:2;242:2;282:1;305:2;326:2;346:1;389:1;422:1;434:2;473:1;475:1;500:1;532:1;577:1;587:2;620:2;648:1;

[HiveMindEmulator]

An aggressive Paladin with good draws is really tough to beat. I'd think you'd stand a chance with all the Swipes and Sen'jin's you'd think you'd have something in time to not die. And if a Rogue can Sprint without dying in the next 2 turns, it's tough to beat so much card advantage. The downside to Sprint is that you have literally no board impact on turn 7, so you actually have to be in a pretty good board position to get it off.

There may have been some misplays on your part which are often hard to catch, since if you don't recognize them in time to play them, you usually don't see them later, and the impact is not immediately noticeable, so I can't comment on that, and I don't know what the other options were, but here are some comments on your draft:
 - Wild Growth has a place in ramp Druids, which apparently are popular again, but it's pretty bad in arena. It's hard to get your curve off just right that you're really getting enough value for spending a card and your chance to impact the board on turn 2.
 - 2x Mark of Nature almost has to be wrong. One, maybe. But 2? Paying 3 mana to add 4 stats to a minion is for the most part pretty unreasonable. 4 stats costs 2 mana and 0 cards (e.g. Yeti vs Raptor)
 - Mogushan Warden is bad. Maybe playable if you're aggro and use it to get an extra hit out of a couple small minions, but it's going to be card disadvantage.
 - Priestess of Elune is one of the worst cards in the game. I have to assume the other choices were Wisp and Grimscale Oracle or something.

Despite having 2 Ancients of War, you really lack good high-end stuff. You have no card draw and only 2 reasonably good big minions, so you have to be a little aggressive. Either you needed to draft that War Golem or other semi-weak big guy you passed on, or you need to have some moment where you turn on the kill switch and start hitting face. I would imagine this deck wants to get a good advantage around turn 4 with the strong turn 4 plays, put up a taunt, and start sending Swipes, Cat Druids, and Marks of Nature to the face before you run out of cards. I suspect running out of steam is what happened in your Rogue loss.

[Titandrake]

Ugh, at 4-0 in arena, and I just fought the most ridiculous Paladin as Druid. I admittedly didn't have a great hand, but long story short was that he played Aldor turn 3, used Blessing on turn 4, then had 2 Consecrates and 2 Truesilvers...Basically, I managed a lot of 1 for 1s, and one or two 2 for 1s, but there was just nothing I could do after I lost board presence.

For Kirian's deck, I think your mana curve is a bit deceptive. You want 2 and 3 drops for turns 2 and 3 in which you have no board and your opponent likely has no board either. So, Dire Wolf on turn 2 isn't that great. Ironbeak isn't a card you drop turn 2 either, and Mark of Nature requires you to have something in play already. This means the only 2 drop you'll feel good about dropping turn 2 is Knife Juggler. Similarly, if you take out the 2 Mark of Natures, then you have four 3 drops you can probably play on turn 3.

It's not required to have early presence, and with that many Swipes you want to play a longer game anyways, but it seems like your deck has difficulty getting board control until around turn 4/5, and if you have to spend your turn 4 or turn 5 playing Swipe, then you don't have mana to play much else, meaning your opponent gets to play the first card on the board...

[Kirian]

- Mogushan Warden is bad. Maybe playable if you're aggro and use it to get an extra hit out of a couple small minions, but it's going to be card disadvantage.
 - Priestess of Elune is one of the worst cards in the game. I have to assume the other choices were Wisp and Grimscale Oracle or something.

Yeah.  On both of these, the other choices were worse, at least according to IV.  I did get some use out of the Warden, oddly, but it was a matter of it being the only playable card when I had it.

[popsofctown]

Ice Barrier and Ice Block are the best mage secrets.  I'm sorry you guys had to find out like this.


Counterspell, Spellbender, and Mirror Entity do better in decks with a normal arena-ish kind of design. But none of those cards are actually good enough to actually participate in normal arena-ish kind of mage decks.  Those kinds of decks are good, about as good as freeze mage, though with a different matchup spread.

Ice Barrier and Ice Block are terrible in normally styled decks, but they do excellent in freeze mage decks and are good enough to warrant inclusion.  So since Ice Barrier and Ice Block actually show up in a top archetype, they're the best secrets, unless you're using some sort of manner of speculating about a future meta where the other secrets are good.

Freeze Mage doesn't show up on ladder all that much because it's very specialized.  It's a lot more useful in the best of 3 format, where you can consistently get it to face zoo, its specialty.  My freeze mage deck had the highest winrate at the university tournament I won and I plan on playing freeze mage again at a tournament this weekend.



Vaporize is just the pits all around.  It's a delayed deadly shot that always misses

[KingZog3]

Ice Barrier and Ice Block are the best mage secrets.  I'm sorry you guys had to find out like this.


Counterspell, Spellbender, and Mirror Entity do better in decks with a normal arena-ish kind of design. But none of those cards are actually good enough to actually participate in normal arena-ish kind of mage decks.  Those kinds of decks are good, about as good as freeze mage, though with a different matchup spread.

Ice Barrier and Ice Block are terrible in normally styled decks, but they do excellent in freeze mage decks and are good enough to warrant inclusion.  So since Ice Barrier and Ice Block actually show up in a top archetype, they're the best secrets, unless you're using some sort of manner of speculating about a future meta where the other secrets are good.

Freeze Mage doesn't show up on ladder all that much because it's very specialized.  It's a lot more useful in the best of 3 format, where you can consistently get it to face zoo, its specialty.  My freeze mage deck had the highest winrate at the university tournament I won and I plan on playing freeze mage again at a tournament this weekend.



Vaporize is just the pits all around.  It's a delayed deadly shot that always misses

I'm very confused by all this.

Vaporize isn't good yes, but why Ice Barrier? It's just a delayed Healing Touch, and straight healing cards like that aren't that good to begin with. They take up an entire card slot and often don't save your game. I've never seen Ice Block to anything productive aside from lowering my opponents hand size.

Perhaps you miss the point that Secrets are also to make your opponent make a bad play. You think Vaporize is bad? Then attack me with that strong minion why don't you? Come on, I dare you. Oops. The point of secrets is to bait your opponent into a bad play, and like we were saying, Ice Barrier can do that, but it might as well be one of the others because their effects are more powerful.

Ice Block is different because it can potentially block much more damage than just 8 damage. Still, it's mostly just a way to push the game 1 turn longer and hope you get a card that saves you on your next draw.

[HiveMindEmulator]

It's like Counting House vs Harvest. If you're forced to choose for a random deck, Spellbender is better than Ice Block. But in constructed, you don't really ever want Spellbender, while you can build a deck for Ice Block (and Ice Barrier). The idea for the deck is to stall until you have enough mana to kill combo.

[blueblimp]

Counterspell, Spellbender, and Mirror Entity do better in decks with a normal arena-ish kind of design. But none of those cards are actually good enough to actually participate in normal arena-ish kind of mage decks.

Mirror Entity isn't that bad. Even if your opponent assumes it's Mirror Entity and has a weak minion in hand, you've forced them to play their weak minion when they may have wanted to do something else, so it's not a total waste. Best case, you get to block them playing their Ogre/whatever until they draw a weak minion. Think of Mirror Entity as a sort of average-ish minion and not as a spell, and it seems playable, though not strong.

Edit: Oh, I think I misunderstood you. You're not talking about arena itself, but about making constructed decks that resemble arena decks?

[KingZog3]

It's like Counting House vs Harvest. If you're forced to choose for a random deck, Spellbender is better than Ice Block. But in constructed, you don't really ever want Spellbender, while you can build a deck for Ice Block (and Ice Barrier). The idea for the deck is to stall until you have enough mana to kill combo.

But is a deck like that even that strong? There's no guarantee you actually draw those cards, and in constructed you can only have 2 of each. Plus you can only play them starting on turn 3, and only 1 at a time. I just don't see it beating anything class with healing, so all Priest decks, nor any class that burst a lot of damage. All they need to do is test and then once you're at 1hp you just better hope you can draw the right cards. Maybe I'm crazy, I don't know.

[Kirian]

How do you guys deal with your opening draw?  Obviously it's much different from Magic what with no lands.  But I tend to have a lot of time where I draw 3/4/4, with a normal mana curve.  And let's say they're good cards... SSC, Yeti, Spellbreaker, nothing rare but very good.  Keep them, and hope you have something to do on turns 1 and 2?  Or discard the lot of them and hope to draw a 1 or 2?

[HiveMindEmulator]

It's like Counting House vs Harvest. If you're forced to choose for a random deck, Spellbender is better than Ice Block. But in constructed, you don't really ever want Spellbender, while you can build a deck for Ice Block (and Ice Barrier). The idea for the deck is to stall until you have enough mana to kill combo.

But is a deck like that even that strong? There's no guarantee you actually draw those cards, and in constructed you can only have 2 of each. Plus you can only play them starting on turn 3, and only 1 at a time. I just don't see it beating anything class with healing, so all Priest decks, nor any class that burst a lot of damage. All they need to do is test and then once you're at 1hp you just better hope you can draw the right cards. Maybe I'm crazy, I don't know.

Before the across-the-board cost increase to freeze cards it was absolutely dominant. Between freezing, board wipes, ice secrets, and sometimes taunting mountain/molten giants, it was not hard to stay alive for 8-10 turns which is plenty to draw enough burn (frostbolt, ice lance, fireball, pyroblast) assuming you include enough card draw.

[HiveMindEmulator]

How do you guys deal with your opening draw?  Obviously it's much different from Magic what with no lands.  But I tend to have a lot of time where I draw 3/4/4, with a normal mana curve.  And let's say they're good cards... SSC, Yeti, Spellbreaker, nothing rare but very good.  Keep them, and hope you have something to do on turns 1 and 2?  Or discard the lot of them and hope to draw a 1 or 2?

Depends on what you mean by "normal" curve and what you expect out of your opponents deck. Typically, in arena, with that draw I just keep the Yeti. If I don't have a turn 2 play, I don't want to keep more than one bigger card. Spellbreaker I never keep anyway. Anything that you can't for sure play by turn 4 is not really worth keeping in arena.

One psychological thing about mulligans is that you shouldn't think of the default as keeping the cards. You have the option to guarantee any of these cards to be in your starting hand, and you have to ask if you really want them. Don't feel bad about throwing a good late game card. You'll probably see it again. In constructed it's a bit different because sometimes your deck hinges heavily on a late game card, which you have to keep anyway, but usually arena decks are not like that.

[Jorbles]

How do you guys deal with your opening draw?  Obviously it's much different from Magic what with no lands.  But I tend to have a lot of time where I draw 3/4/4, with a normal mana curve.  And let's say they're good cards... SSC, Yeti, Spellbreaker, nothing rare but very good.  Keep them, and hope you have something to do on turns 1 and 2?  Or discard the lot of them and hope to draw a 1 or 2?

Depends on what you mean by "normal" curve and what you expect out of your opponents deck. Typically, in arena, with that draw I just keep the Yeti. If I don't have a turn 2 play, I don't want to keep more than one bigger card. Spellbreaker I never keep anyway. Anything that you can't for sure play by turn 4 is not really worth keeping in arena.

One psychological thing about mulligans is that you shouldn't think of the default as keeping the cards. You have the option to guarantee any of these cards to be in your starting hand, and you have to ask if you really want them. Don't feel bad about throwing a good late game card. You'll probably see it again. In constructed it's a bit different because sometimes your deck hinges heavily on a late game card, which you have to keep anyway, but usually arena decks are not like that.

SSC isn't good in that draw anyways, unless you're Paladin or to a lesser degree Shaman. You have no guarantee that you'll have a creature out to buff in that situation. I'd probably keep only the Yeti, also. If I'm Paladin and playing 2nd, I might keep the SSC (1st turn->coin-summon 1/1, 2nd turn->SSC buff summon to 2/2).

In a more general sense if I get a draw like the above. I'd keep at most one of the cards, whichever I think is best in the early game.

[KingZog3]

How do you guys deal with your opening draw?  Obviously it's much different from Magic what with no lands.  But I tend to have a lot of time where I draw 3/4/4, with a normal mana curve.  And let's say they're good cards... SSC, Yeti, Spellbreaker, nothing rare but very good.  Keep them, and hope you have something to do on turns 1 and 2?  Or discard the lot of them and hope to draw a 1 or 2?

Depends on what you mean by "normal" curve and what you expect out of your opponents deck. Typically, in arena, with that draw I just keep the Yeti. If I don't have a turn 2 play, I don't want to keep more than one bigger card. Spellbreaker I never keep anyway. Anything that you can't for sure play by turn 4 is not really worth keeping in arena.

One psychological thing about mulligans is that you shouldn't think of the default as keeping the cards. You have the option to guarantee any of these cards to be in your starting hand, and you have to ask if you really want them. Don't feel bad about throwing a good late game card. You'll probably see it again. In constructed it's a bit different because sometimes your deck hinges heavily on a late game card, which you have to keep anyway, but usually arena decks are not like that.

SSC isn't good in that draw anyways, unless you're Paladin or to a lesser degree Shaman. You have no guarantee that you'll have a creature out to buff in that situation. I'd probably keep only the Yeti, also. If I'm Paladin and playing 2nd, I might keep the SSC (1st turn->coin-summon 1/1, 2nd turn->SSC buff summon to 2/2).

In a more general sense if I get a draw like the above. I'd keep at most one of the cards, whichever I think is best in the early game.

Shattered sun claric costs 3mana, so you can't coin into a 1-1 and then buff it turn 2

[Jorbles]

How do you guys deal with your opening draw?  Obviously it's much different from Magic what with no lands.  But I tend to have a lot of time where I draw 3/4/4, with a normal mana curve.  And let's say they're good cards... SSC, Yeti, Spellbreaker, nothing rare but very good.  Keep them, and hope you have something to do on turns 1 and 2?  Or discard the lot of them and hope to draw a 1 or 2?

Depends on what you mean by "normal" curve and what you expect out of your opponents deck. Typically, in arena, with that draw I just keep the Yeti. If I don't have a turn 2 play, I don't want to keep more than one bigger card. Spellbreaker I never keep anyway. Anything that you can't for sure play by turn 4 is not really worth keeping in arena.

One psychological thing about mulligans is that you shouldn't think of the default as keeping the cards. You have the option to guarantee any of these cards to be in your starting hand, and you have to ask if you really want them. Don't feel bad about throwing a good late game card. You'll probably see it again. In constructed it's a bit different because sometimes your deck hinges heavily on a late game card, which you have to keep anyway, but usually arena decks are not like that.

SSC isn't good in that draw anyways, unless you're Paladin or to a lesser degree Shaman. You have no guarantee that you'll have a creature out to buff in that situation. I'd probably keep only the Yeti, also. If I'm Paladin and playing 2nd, I might keep the SSC (1st turn->coin-summon 1/1, 2nd turn->SSC buff summon to 2/2).

In a more general sense if I get a draw like the above. I'd keep at most one of the cards, whichever I think is best in the early game.

Shattered sun claric costs 3mana, so you can't coin into a 1-1 and then buff it turn 2

Good point. Forget what I said. Shattered Sun could still work as a turn 3 play if you were a Paladin, but that's still usually going to be weaker than playing a normal 2-drop.

[popsofctown]

Freeze Mage has won first place in one managrind that I know of, after the freezing nerfs.  And managrind isn't even the best format for the deck, if I recall correctly it's not two out of three.

[blueblimp]

And managrind isn't even the best format for the deck, if I recall correctly it's not two out of three.

Why does format matter for deck strength?

[nkirbit]

And managrind isn't even the best format for the deck, if I recall correctly it's not two out of three.

Why does format matter for deck strength?

Well, consider warlock.  There's two major competitive warlock archetypes (Zoo and Handlock), and you want to mulligan very, very differently against the two decks.  In a best of one matchup, 100% of the games are played with your opponent not really knowing how to mulligan.  In games two and three, if they exist, the player will certainly make much better decisions with their starting hand.

I would guess that freezemage ran into this same issue.  When they were popular, there was also a popular aggro-mage deck that required different mulligan decisions from the opponent.  If part of freezemage's advantage was that opponents often mis-mulliganed against the deck, that's an edge that's lost in series with multiple games.

[nkirbit]

Although the implication seems to be that freezing mage is better in best two out of three matches.. I'm not sure why that would be.

[Twistedarcher]

[Kirian]

Perhaps I just... suck?

My average wins in the arena is 3-4. Its very related to having a good mana curve, not just getting the best cards.

I think my average is a solid 2 wins.  It's... less than satisfying.  I seem to do better in constructed.

[popsofctown]

I mispoke.  Managrind, last time I participated, is played best 2 out of 3 with the restriction that you must play the same class all three games.  The majority of other major tournaments is played best 2 out of three with the requirement that you play a different class after each defeat.  Freeze Mage has a very specialized matchup spread, with one of the best if not the best matchup against Zoo but also some really terrible matchups against control warrior and Flare.  (I say Flare instead of a deck name because I feel Freeze mage tends to do really well against the other 28 cards in Hunter decks, but Flare wrecks Freeze mage rather dramatically.)

So freeze mage is best when you have some control over which matchups it encounters.  As a practical example, in my last 3 of 5 tournament I started off as Druid against a player and he played aggro Rogue.  I won that game.  He switched to a very heal heavy Paladin and defeated my druid.  Since Ice Mage is terrible against Paladin, I switched to my Control Warrior to try to remove the Paladin threat to my remaining duo.  I did, and he switched to Zoo and beat my Warrior, and then my remaining deck was freeze mage which had good prospects.

[popsofctown]

I'm really confused as to what kind of tournament format Blizzard is going to encourage the most.  An official Blizzard tournament was the inspiration for the "pokemon stadium" format.

[Kirian]

Amani Berserker + Cruel Taskmaster = Why did I bother to show up?

[Drab Emordnilap]

Amani Berserker + Cruel Taskmaster = Why did I bother to show up?

It's only 7 damage, and then it trades with any 2 drop and half the 1 drops.