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Author Topic: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?  (Read 613300 times)

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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #225 on: February 03, 2014, 02:06:59 am »
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Yeti and Boulderfist Ogre are dominant forces in Arena, but rarely, if ever, appear in highly ranked play mode decks.  So their boringness is not a big issue. 

Dark Iron Dwarf and Shattered Sun Cleric were amongst the strongest cards in the game before they were nerfed.  It was really difficult to build an aggro or midrange deck without SSC. 
Dark Iron Dwarf might have been ok if they left it alone, maybe.  But it was crowding out more interesting cards like Water Elemental and Windspeaker because it was a neutral 4 drop everyone always had access too so it was a bit of a variety concern.

If you like your creatures flavorful I'd suggest the shaman class.
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blueblimp

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #226 on: February 03, 2014, 02:32:26 am »
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Yeti and Boulderfist Ogre are dominant forces in Arena, but rarely, if ever, appear in highly ranked play mode decks.  So their boringness is not a big issue.
It's an issue for arena, which is what I had in mind in my post. Sorry for not specifying. Constructed doesn't seem like an interesting competitive format except for the most hardcore players, for a number of reasons.
Quote
Dark Iron Dwarf and Shattered Sun Cleric were amongst the strongest cards in the game before they were nerfed.  It was really difficult to build an aggro or midrange deck without SSC. 
Dark Iron Dwarf might have been ok if they left it alone, maybe.  But it was crowding out more interesting cards like Water Elemental and Windspeaker because it was a neutral 4 drop everyone always had access too so it was a bit of a variety concern.
I don't object to the nerfs at all. Dwarf is arguably more interesting after the nerf, because you're forced to extract value from the buff that turn.
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nkirbit

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #227 on: February 11, 2014, 01:11:30 am »
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So apparently if you Mind Control Tech a knife juggler, your mind control tech gets a shot from the Knife Juggler.  Weird!

I had four minions out, my opponent cast mind control tech to steal my knife juggler and killed a 3/1 with the shot.  Not a bad turnaround.
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blueblimp

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #228 on: February 11, 2014, 01:20:20 pm »
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Somehow I knew about the MC Tech / Knife Juggler interaction before, but here's something I don't know: if the MC Tech ability counts as summoning a minion, will it also trigger Sword of Justice, buffing the stolen minion?

Here are links to the card texts, which I don't necessarily trust:
Sword of Justice
Mind Control Tech
Knife Juggler

Related note: Mirror Entity triggers on "when your enemy plays a minion", not "summons", and that's why it doesn't trigger from Paladin's Reinforce hero power, which does trigger Sword of Justice.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #229 on: February 11, 2014, 04:22:23 pm »
+1

The reason the MC tech thing works is because of the way triggers are handled. 

The steps to playing a card, as they seem to be programmed, are:

1. If the card is a minion, summon it.
2. Execute Battle cry or execute spell's written effects.
3. If effects caused damage, handle on-damage triggers. (Frothing beserker only handles one of the on-damage triggers, which is a quirky bug that doesn't fit this paradigm but does not have an impact on gameplay, probably not intended behavior but low on the priority list.
4. If something died so far, handle deathrattles and on-death triggers, then go back to 3 as necessary.
5. Now, and really not until now tell all minions and weapons on the battlefield that card X was played, and that minion X was summoned (if applicable).  Each of those minions may trigger upon being told and trigger on behalf of their current controller.


So that's why the MC tech Knife Juggler thing works.  Lightning bolt triggers always wait until after battlecries. 

Blueblimp, Knife Juggler is throwing a knife to celebrate that Mind Control Tech was summoned, not to celebrate his own shifting of controllers.  At the time of the summoning he belonged to someone else, but by the time he actually finds out about the summoning he is already on the MC tech's team.  Stealing a minion does not "summon it".  (Nor does polymorphing a minion, except when starving buzzard is watching, because Starving Buzzard is bugged like that.)



A very similar interaction is that if you use Shadow Madness on a Wild Pyromancer, the Wild Pyromancer triggers and damages everything.   That won't work for Mana Addict because the wording is different.
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blueblimp

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #230 on: February 12, 2014, 02:49:21 am »
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Whoops! Thanks for setting me straight.
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Titandrake

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #231 on: February 12, 2014, 04:00:01 am »
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A very similar interaction is that if you use Shadow Madness on a Wild Pyromancer, the Wild Pyromancer triggers and damages everything.   That won't work for Mana Addict because the wording is different.

Oh jeez, don't remind me. I was 7-2 in arena, and had a 2/1 Argent Protector, 3/1 Pyromancer, 4/1 Darkscale Healer, and 3/3 Ironfur Grizzly against an empty board and 2 cards in hand. Pretty nice board position, I was fairly certain he didn't have Holy Nova.

Drops Northshire Cleric. Heals Pyromancer to draw a card. Shadow Madness on Pyromancer, which triggers Pyro, killing everything but Grizzly, then runs the Pyro into the Grizzly. Completely killed my momentum. 2 turns later he dropped Ragnaros, and I was never able to deal with it.

Also, if you're interested in getting a little more fun out of arena, you can try building deliberately aggro decks. I got the idea from http://ihearthu.com/welcome-to-the-arena-a-different-perspective/, decided to try it out with Warlock. Proceed to get the most ridiculously aggressive deck. 2 Soulfires, 1 Power Overwhelming, 1 Arcane Golem, 1 Doomguard, 1 Hellfire for fast damage. Six one drops (none of them Flame Imp unfortunately), 2 Shattered Sun Clerics, a Dark Iron Dwarf, a Defender of Argus, and 2 Dire Wolf Alphas (which are actually really good when you almost always have a 1 drop out.)

So far it's 5-0 and I've won before turn 7 three times.

I think making a strategy like this has a lot more variance in the draft phase, because your curve shifts down a lot and you don't have as many neutral 1 drops to choose from to make the deck work. Plus, it feels Warlock specific, as they're the only class that can build back quickly after board clear.
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Jdaki

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #232 on: February 14, 2014, 06:31:46 pm »
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Grrr mumble mumble Mirror Entity not triggering off Power of the Wild... then I slam down Ironbark protector

I have had disastrous attempts at the all out aggro decks, both rogue attempts 0-3, just too used to playing control style I think.
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KingZog3

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #233 on: February 14, 2014, 07:55:49 pm »
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Grrr mumble mumble Mirror Entity not triggering off Power of the Wild... then I slam down Ironbark protector

I have had disastrous attempts at the all out aggro decks, both rogue attempts 0-3, just too used to playing control style I think.

I had a tough time too. I prefer Priest with lots of Taunt and lots of healing minions. Tried Warrior aggro deck but couldn't pull it off.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #234 on: February 14, 2014, 08:26:47 pm »
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I don't think Warrior is a great aggro class.  Midrange maybe but not aggro.  In arena, that is.  Besides the one time I got enough Flame axes and Bloodsail Raiders to repeatedly win turn 6, aggro Warrior has proven pretty inconsistent for me.  Lack of direct damage at common might be a large part of it.

Rogue and Warlock are the best arena aggro classes imo.  Eviscerate is pretty solid direct damage, and Assassin's dagger + possible poison is better at hitting players; Arcanite specializes at hitting yetis.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 09:36:41 pm by popsofctown »
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KingZog3

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #235 on: February 14, 2014, 08:49:41 pm »
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I don't think Warrior is a great aggro class.  Midrange maybe but not aggro.  In arena, that is.  Besides the one time I got enough Flame axes and Bloodsail Raiders to repeatedly win turn 6, aggro Warrior has proven pretty inconsistent for me.  Lack of direct damage at common might be a large part of it.

Rogue and Warlock are the best arena aggro classes imo.  Eviscerate is pretty solid direct damage, and Assassin's dagger + possible poison is better at hitting players, Arcanite specializes at hitting yetis.

A warrior killed me in like 5 turns. Granted it must have been perfect luck, but he got a minion to like 16 attack and I had no way to kill it (no card in my hand, but I did in my deck). I haven't really played Warlock much, just a few times for quests, but yeah, Rogue is good to play aggressive. Lots of nice draw cards and cheap damage cards. Backstab really helps.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #236 on: February 14, 2014, 09:47:23 pm »
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I don't think Warrior is a great aggro class.  Midrange maybe but not aggro.  In arena, that is.  Besides the one time I got enough Flame axes and Bloodsail Raiders to repeatedly win turn 6, aggro Warrior has proven pretty inconsistent for me.  Lack of direct damage at common might be a large part of it.

Rogue and Warlock are the best arena aggro classes imo.  Eviscerate is pretty solid direct damage, and Assassin's dagger + possible poison is better at hitting players, Arcanite specializes at hitting yetis.

A warrior killed me in like 5 turns. Granted it must have been perfect luck, but he got a minion to like 16 attack and I had no way to kill it (no card in my hand, but I did in my deck). I haven't really played Warlock much, just a few times for quests, but yeah, Rogue is good to play aggressive. Lots of nice draw cards and cheap damage cards. Backstab really helps.

You don't want to draft the 16 damage deck.  I guarantee you that guy didn't get 9 wins that way.  Decks like that will coin flip on whether your opponent has the proper answer, and if they do have the answer, it's pretty much curtains.  That doesn't mean he played incorrectly: he may have happened to draw only the eggsinabasket parts of a more balanced deck and decided he probably wouldn't win a game of normal length, so he took the risk.  But that's not a solid arena strategy.

When you build a good aggro deck, you use multiple creatures as your threats so that Polymorph doesn't 4 for 1 you. And you mix that in with resilient creatures like Scarlet Crusader, Harvest Golem, and yeti so that mass removal doesn't 4 for 1 you.  Then there's nothing that 4 for 1's you, you get two for one'd a couple times by forked bolt or something because you have no way around that but you overall win with your early board control and direct damage finish.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #237 on: February 14, 2014, 09:55:35 pm »
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I would disagree that Rogue has "lots of nice draw cards", by the way.  Sprint is markedly inferior to Arcane Intellect, though serviceable.  Shiv is pretty mediocre in arena because spell damage +1 won't be there for you consistently.  Shiv lets you Fireblast (mage hero power) once, at the drawback of not getting to see the card underneath it until you Fireblast once.

Fan of Knives is a pretty solid draw card, the payoff is much better for going out of your way to squeeze a kobold underneath it, and it's great even if you can't manage to do that.  But 1 quality card /3 drawers is not "lots of nice draw cards".  Part of your mindset when you draft rogue is figuring out how you will avoid empty hand syndrome without resorting/relying on Sprint and Shiv because you'll want to pass on those for Yetis etc.  You accomplish this with ogres, cult masters, and assassin's blades.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 10:01:40 pm by popsofctown »
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KingZog3

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #238 on: February 14, 2014, 10:10:00 pm »
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I would disagree that Rogue has "lots of nice draw cards", by the way.  Sprint is markedly inferior to Arcane Intellect, though serviceable.  Shiv is pretty mediocre in arena because spell damage +1 won't be there for you consistently.  Shiv lets you Fireblast (mage hero power) once, at the drawback of not getting to see the card underneath it until you Fireblast once.

Fan of Knives is a pretty solid draw card, the payoff is much better for going out of your way to squeeze a kobold underneath it, and it's great even if you can't manage to do that.  But 1 quality card /3 drawers is not "lots of nice draw cards".  Part of your mindset when you draft rogue is figuring out how you will avoid empty hand syndrome without resorting/relying on Sprint and Shiv because you'll want to pass on those for Yetis etc.  You accomplish this with ogres, cult masters, and assassin's blades.

I'll take your word on this. I've only been playing for a two weeks or so. Plus my deck strategy usually involves Priest and making the game last a long time and delivering blows at the end with strong cards.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #239 on: February 14, 2014, 11:54:03 pm »
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I just thoughtstole Tirion/Redemption.  Doesn't get much better than that..
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Jorbles

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #240 on: February 21, 2014, 01:14:52 pm »
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I finally beat 7 wins in arena (9-3) with a hunter deck. The key to it I think was probably Deathwing, which I think is probably one of the strongest individual arena cards. That card wins games.

My draft wasn't bad otherwise, I had the usual strong arena cards (Harvest Golem, Chillwind Yeti, Sun Cleric, some taunts, etc) plus some good Hunter cards (Explosive Trap, Explosive Shot, Release the Hounds combined with Buzzard and Hyena, plus a few random beasts). I don't think I had a bad draft, but I won at least 3 games because I was able to turn things around with Deathwing that I probably otherwise would have lost. It is so good at turning games around, and since people might not have a lot of card removal it's tough for opponents to plan for it. They might only have one or two proper answers to it (Assassinate, Big Game Hunter, Polymorph, Hex, and so on) so you can play aggressively to try and draw them out and then drop it once they've used some of their creature removal on something like a Boulderfist Ogre.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #241 on: February 21, 2014, 02:30:56 pm »
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My first hunter seven was hard too.  Hunter's pretty bad.
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Jorbles

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #242 on: February 21, 2014, 04:04:05 pm »
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This was not notable because it was my first 7 with hunter, it was my first 7 in arena ever! (well 9, but getting to 7 was my goal at the time (I'd previously only gone 5)).
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KingZog3

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #243 on: February 21, 2014, 04:31:47 pm »
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My first hunter seven was hard too.  Hunter's pretty bad.

Bad in general, or just in the arena? I find Hunter to be pretty good for regular games, but not in the arena because you need beast cards and specific Hunter cards to make the deck work.
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Jorbles

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #244 on: February 21, 2014, 04:45:04 pm »
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My first hunter seven was hard too.  Hunter's pretty bad.

Bad in general, or just in the arena? I find Hunter to be pretty good for regular games, but not in the arena because you need beast cards and specific Hunter cards to make the deck work.

I think just in Arena. I wouldn't say hunter is terrible in constructed (though it's probably not the strongest).
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KingZog3

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #245 on: February 21, 2014, 04:49:20 pm »
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My first hunter seven was hard too.  Hunter's pretty bad.

Bad in general, or just in the arena? I find Hunter to be pretty good for regular games, but not in the arena because you need beast cards and specific Hunter cards to make the deck work.

I think just in Arena. I wouldn't say hunter is terrible in constructed (though it's probably not the strongest).

No not the strongest, I think it's pretty clear Mage is. But Hunter can play pretty aggressive, especially since he has lots of useful and inexpensive cards.
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Titandrake

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #246 on: February 21, 2014, 07:49:00 pm »
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I think I'm finally starting to get better at arena. I'm not quite infinite in arena, but when you add in quest gold and the amount I play each day, it works out to infinite. Learning that I could cancel 40 gold quests to get better ones helped a lot in that.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #247 on: February 21, 2014, 09:45:24 pm »
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Hunter is really bad in arena.  It might have the same 12 win potential as anything else, but it is very hard to get solid consistent performances when the thing spits beasts at you half the time and other times it doesn't.

Mage is not "clearly best" in constructed, it's part of a largely healthy meta in which it is not even the star, up at the top. At commons.dec MMR it's probably no better than aggrolock either.

If you were mixing up constructed and arena, you may well be right.
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nkirbit

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #248 on: February 22, 2014, 12:22:44 am »
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Yeah, I very much dislike hunter in arena.  The ability is just so bad, easily the worst one.  There are a few noteworthy cards (Unleash, the removal's fine to good) but nothing enough to make up for the fact that you have an ability that doesn't actually do anything.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #249 on: February 22, 2014, 01:49:58 am »
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I've recently started dabbling in constructed. I'm currently fiddling around with a Hunter deck that works pretty well for me at my level. It took me from level 11 to 8 yesterday. I'm currently thinking Druid, Paladin or Warrior is the strongest classes in constructed overall. Control is so strong in this game.
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