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Author Topic: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?  (Read 200511 times)

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Grujah

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2013, 07:57:16 pm »
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@HME Yeah, cute stuff rarely work. Brewmasters and that Warrior's guy that does +2/+0 and 1 damage sometimes do work. Still, only few in a deck. I have few quibbles with my list, too, so, yeah :D.

@WW Thing is you really need to know what to play around, so knowing them all helps a lot (also, you don't have to alt-tab everytime opponent plays a secret :P).


Also, if anybody wants a help, like a skype session while drafting or whatever, I'd be up for it. PMs. I do not promise success, however.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2013, 07:57:49 pm »
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Seems pretty enjoyable - I'm on under "Dominionater" (sadly WanderingWinder is too long...)
Just so you know, this isn't enough information for anyone to buddy you.  You have to use the ID, which has a # sign and some digits to add people.  And sadly and frustratingly they didn't make usernames unique, so even if one of us bumps into you randomly we won't know for sure it is you.
EDIT: Mine's KirbyHero#1343
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 08:00:02 pm by popsofctown »
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2013, 07:58:55 pm »
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I would say just learn secrets organically.  If you learn them organically you'll remember them with a proportion that matches their popularity, which is a good thing.  Having Repentance in your mental checklist is clutter because no one uses Repentance
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Grujah

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2013, 10:14:00 am »
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Ok, add me guys, I am
grujah(et)gmail(dot)com
or
2516
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2013, 11:48:25 am »
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Seems pretty enjoyable - I'm on under "Dominionater" (sadly WanderingWinder is too long...)
Just so you know, this isn't enough information for anyone to buddy you.  You have to use the ID, which has a # sign and some digits to add people.  And sadly and frustratingly they didn't make usernames unique, so even if one of us bumps into you randomly we won't know for sure it is you.
EDIT: Mine's KirbyHero#1343
I understand that. I'm not really looking for you guys to buddy me.

Learning what to play around: yeah, I'd look it all up if I really cared about winning. But right now, it's just not worth the bore, because I don't care *that* much about winning. So a vague idea is fine.

Grujah

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2013, 05:12:26 pm »
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Have to brag somewhere, 9-x arena record has been eluding me for some time now, but got on a roll yesterday/today, played/drafted to be best of my ability, and finaly got 9-2, two times in a row! :D It was Rogue and Paladin, both heavy on twodrops. Hopefully streak doesn't end here.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2013, 06:03:59 pm »
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Have to brag somewhere, 9-x arena record has been eluding me for some time now, but got on a roll yesterday/today, played/drafted to be best of my ability, and finaly got 9-2, two times in a row! :D It was Rogue and Paladin, both heavy on twodrops. Hopefully streak doesn't end here.
Congrats.

Don't play much arena Rogue, but when I do I get Empty Hand Syndrome, so I'm surprised 2-drop.dec worked out for you.
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Grujah

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2013, 06:16:13 pm »
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I love Rogue in Arena. 3/4 weapon helped a ton at keeping my guys alive and not overcommiting. Biggest problem was that 2 Defias Leaders and 3 Mad Bombers do NOT work well together  ;D. I had reasonable late-game but both decks were just mainly cost aggresive decks.
Pally especially didn't have problem with empty hands, I had 2 Hammer of Wraths, 1 Azure Drake and 2! Argent Commanders (instane) which are auto 2-for-1s and keep your hand full.

That + I always give extra attention to playing around sweeps. I hate nothing more than to be blown out by them, so I don't let it happen often.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 06:18:47 pm by Grujah »
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Dsell

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2013, 06:27:00 pm »
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This thing needs to go in open beta already! I have at least 2 friends, maybe 4, who are gonna play it with me. It's probably good that it hasn't started yet since finals are next week, but I still can't wait!
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nkirbit

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2013, 07:15:38 pm »
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Is there a date yet for open beta?  I remember reading that it was going to be a december a while ago, but just googled it and didn't find an exact date at all.
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Grujah

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2013, 11:02:35 pm »
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Is there a date yet for open beta?  I remember reading that it was going to be a december a while ago, but just googled it and didn't find an exact date at all.

Pretty sure they didn't specify a date.

And it's Blizzard, when they say December they often actually mean June, two year from now.  ;D
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2013, 05:08:56 pm »
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I love Rogue in Arena. 3/4 weapon helped a ton at keeping my guys alive and not overcommiting. Biggest problem was that 2 Defias Leaders and 3 Mad Bombers do NOT work well together  ;D. I had reasonable late-game but both decks were just mainly cost aggresive decks.
Pally especially didn't have problem with empty hands, I had 2 Hammer of Wraths, 1 Azure Drake and 2! Argent Commanders (instane) which are auto 2-for-1s and keep your hand full.

That + I always give extra attention to playing around sweeps. I hate nothing more than to be blown out by them, so I don't let it happen often.
Yeah, Pally usually doesn't get empty hand syndrome, they have lots of tools. 
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blueblimp

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2013, 06:11:03 pm »
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Got my beta key on Tuesday so I've played some games. I didn't know much going in. My first observation is that it's very, very similar to MTG. (To be fair, the only Magic I've played is Duels of the Planewalkers 2013 on the iPad.) I think it's fair to call it a streamlined Magic clone. The overall vibe of the UI also feels similar to DotP, with the swishy, evocative animations.

So, nothing too fresh that I see, and this strategy of refinement has worked for Blizzard before (since WoW is arguably a streamlined EverQuest clone). Being free-to-play is nice, because one reason I didn't get into Magic is not wanting to pay so much, although I'd still prefer something like subscription fee or one-time payment over free-to-play, because FTP incentivizes the devs to make progression unpleasantly slow (so that you feel tempted to pay money). Having access to full deck-building capabilities at no cost is very nice, since DotP has only limited deck-building capability despite costing money. Hearthstone is definitely positioning itself to disrupt computer versions of MTG.

The game itself I have mixed feelings about. The play flow is very well done, because you never need to wait for your opponent during your turn, and individual turns are usually quick too. That avoids the sometimes ponderous feel of DotP (and I assume other computerized Magic too). The individual turns often have interesting tactics in them. The deck-building interface is a little clunky, but usable.

On the other hand, there's a lot of randomness. For example, I've had a game where I just happen to draw Fireball when I needed it to kill my opponent that turn, and otherwise I likely would have lost. It sucks for close games to be decided by fluke luck in the end. The card design doesn't help here either, given that there are cards with explicit randomness built in. For example, there's one card that takes control of a random enemy minion. That's enormously swingy: taking their best minion can be game-winning, and taking their worst minion can be almost useless.

There are some CCG-isms that I wish they had rethought somehow but I can't blame them for. For example, having a maximum of 2 cards per type in a deck feels inelegant in a post-Dominion world, but I don't have any better idea about how to do it. Also, limiting certain cards to certain classes just feels like a limitation on deck creativity to me.

Overall, it's fun enough that I'll continue to play for now, although I expect it'll get dull given how slowly new cards are acquired to build new decks with.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2013, 06:51:34 pm »
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HME and I seem to disagree on the design of cards like Mind Control Tech.  I think it's kind of unfun, HME says the game already has luck from draws so who cares.   
(I assume you are talking about that and not the legendary one, Sylvanas Windrunner.  She tends to not actually be very random because it's a deathrattle).
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Grujah

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2013, 07:18:17 pm »
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Meh, I don't agree on so many points.
I don't see how it is "very, very similar" to Magic.  I'm talking paper/MTGO Magic here, gameplay and metagame is so, so much more complex that I don't really see the compassion. I didn't really play DotP, only watched some of it on youtube, and while it is basically "a tool to learn the rules of magic" its still more complex than HS.

HS is very simple, and it turns out that that isn't such a bad thing after all.

It being more streamlined, I agree there.

I also agree that it has quite more "random" spells than usual. Thing is you play around it to maximize that "random" will actually be in your benefit. For example, the minion that you mentioned, you try not to play it when it can either "win or die" but when he has 4 equally strong minions. Yes, sometimes you win or lose on the "fluke luck", and that can be not-fun sometimes. Your luck averages out in the end and it's how well you played around your luck that gives you most wins.
As for drawing your only out (Fireball), well, that's the nature of TCGs/CCGs. Again, you play around it. You know what your chances of drawing a fireball are. So does your opponent. You always play it so that you have as many outs as possible that you can draw. You always play so that you give your opponent as few outs as possible. Sometimes, your only out is a Fireball. Yes, sometimes you topdeck it, but most of the times you don't. Yes, it sucks for your opponent who probably played good and left you with only one out to lose, but well, that's what you get when you sign up for a card game. The former argument of "it averages out" still stands.

Other thing is that topdecking an only out is so fun. I mean, some of the most iconic moments of Pro Magic are exactly those - winning against all odds.

As for deckbuilding - I think you are way overestimation Dominon's influence on CCG world (which is non-existent). And honestly, you cannot compare dominion's "up to 10 of any card" with CCGs. In Dom, you actually need to work hard to both acquire the cards and make the deck consistently draw it. Acquiring cards is 0 work in CCGs (gamewise) and if you can put as many in as you want, drawing them consistently is a breeze. It would be like you had a premade deck in Dom (which would suck). Moreover, limits are need to actually some archetypes/decks (combo for example) viable but not overpowering.

Also, limiting cards to classes actually makes for more creativity, imo. Firstly, they need classes to catch that WC feel. And the only way to differentiate between them is to make some cards available only to certain classes. It's "creativity under restrictions", and it's been in CCGs from the very start. Hell, that's what dominion is all about! Isn't dominion more fun exactly because you don't have everything available in every game? That's the feel that they want to get too.

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Grujah

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2013, 07:20:18 pm »
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HME and I seem to disagree on the design of cards like Mind Control Tech.  I think it's kind of unfun, HME says the game already has luck from draws so who cares.   
(I assume you are talking about that and not the legendary one, Sylvanas Windrunner.  She tends to not actually be very random because it's a deathrattle).

I think it is quite bad as it is very situational and even when the situation in which it is good arrives, it's only average in performance.

As for design itself, I agree on HME. You play around the randomness anyway.

Edit: BTW, i have never ever see it swing the game.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 07:24:22 pm by Grujah »
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blueblimp

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2013, 09:19:40 pm »
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Fair points.

Regarding how similar HS is to MTG, I don't mean that in a bad way. There's value in a good streamlined clone, especially one that plays in a different medium.

These are some of the similarities that I saw between the games:
  • Before even considering mechanics, the theme is similar: a generic and flexible fantasy setting.
  • The primary goal of the game is the same: reduce the opposing player to 0 life. One of the secondary goals of Magic, reducing the other player's deck to zero cards, is in HS mirrored by taking life penalties once your deck is exhausted.
  • You play minions (creatures) into a single play area that has mostly no positional element (okay, this is not 100% true in HS--not sure about Magic).
  • You can cast spells (sorceries) too.
  • When you play any type of card, you may be interrupted. Although secrets and instants are different in many ways, secrets are clearly an asynchronous-play-friendly version of instants.
  • You pay for cards using mana, which uses a non-saveable pool that regenerates each turn and whose maximum typically grows by 1 per turn. HS cuts out a ton of complexity by giving you an extra mana crystal each turn (rather than requiring playing lands) and making all mana colourless, but the feel of it is extremely similar.
  • In each game, you draw one card at the start of each turn. Granted, this card does more in HS because you don't have any lands in your deck.
  • Minions (creatures) have attack strength and health as the two basic combat statistics and moreover the minion-on-minion combat is kinda similar between the two games. Sure, the combat system overall is very different because of how targeting works, but some change there is forced by wanting the gameplay to be asynchronous-friendly. The combat between individual minions still has a similar feel.
  • ..etc?
There are a lot of differences too, but I found when learning Hearthstone that I instantly recognized "oh, this works basically how it works in Magic" whereas when I learned Magic, most of the mechanics were unfamiliar.
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Grujah

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2013, 09:29:47 pm »
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Yeah, I guess you have a point, esp with DotP, which is much more creature combat oriented. And I do get that this "works better" as an online game than MTG as it is way more streamlined for online play (no priority passing etc).

HS is a simpler version of that and borrows quite a few mechanics, I agree. Thing is that my judgement is clouded as I play a lot of competitive Magic which is quite a different beast than competitive HS (which I follow to an extent).


And positioning of cards has no effect in Magic, as you can, in real life, rearrange them in any way (well, except Chaos Orb and Falling Star, but that is not legal in any format and from the VERY begging of Magic when Wizards had no idea what this game will actually look like).


Sorry for aweful grammar, no autocorrect on this computer. :D
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 09:32:20 pm by Grujah »
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blueblimp

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2013, 09:56:24 pm »
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I see, I'm coming at it as a noob to both games, so maybe it's only at that level that they feel similar. What is it that makes the competitive levels feel so different?
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2013, 02:09:04 am »
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HME and I seem to disagree on the design of cards like Mind Control Tech.  I think it's kind of unfun, HME says the game already has luck from draws so who cares.   
(I assume you are talking about that and not the legendary one, Sylvanas Windrunner.  She tends to not actually be very random because it's a deathrattle).

I think it is quite bad as it is very situational and even when the situation in which it is good arrives, it's only average in performance.

As for design itself, I agree on HME. You play around the randomness anyway.

Edit: BTW, i have never ever see it swing the game.

When the good situation hits, it's definitely above average. It's 3-for-1. The problem is that it doesn't occur all that often. But then again, it still trades evenly with most other 3-drops, so it's not terrible. Not worth using in constructed unless you know your opponent is massing minions (in which case you just avoid trading, in order to set it up), but not the worst rare you could get in arena.
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2013, 06:29:13 pm »
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MC tech is bad in arena because the goal in arena is not to go 4-3, it's to go 9-3.  So optimal strategy is skewed towards punishing your opponent's weaker deck with consistent tactics rather using random events where you have a slight edge. 


High variance cards are powerful when you are behind, either in board position or player skill.  I'm always quick to YOLO bomber if I'm losing badly on board position.  Unfortunately there's a large group of weak arena players who (correctly, for that person) value Mind Control Tech much higher than a highly skilled drafter would because the variance brings them closer to a 50/50 winrate against more skilled players.  Combined with some lucky drafting offers that is an excellent strategy for going 9-2 occasionally. 

I do think that it's important that lower skilled and newbie players have an enjoyable experience and a nonzero winrate, but I don't think this is a healthy dynamic.  It flips the other way too, really, it kind of sucks that good players get skewed against Demolisher in favor of Injured Blademaster even if there's conceal or some other synergy going on. 

I think it'd be nice to rework cards like MC tech, and then to compensate, split Arena into multiple leagues.  Players who 9 consistently enough in the newbie league get promoted to an upper league with higher rewards that motivate them to stay there and face tougher competition.  Players who don't 9 consistently, or who get a burst of 9's then fall back off, play in a lower league, one that has a poorer risk/reward ratio on entry fee versus prizes.  If things are tweaked right, weaker players will get more wins in that league than they do in the current system, so the amount of prizes they earn could decrease very slightly or even increase.  Both leagues would have more exciting nailbiter matches and fewer blowouts, and less incentive to abnormally dodge or abnormally favor variance.
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blueblimp

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2013, 07:06:12 pm »
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Hm, I assumed that Arena uses match-making based on skill, already. Is that not true?
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2013, 10:47:34 pm »
+1

Hm, I assumed that Arena uses match-making based on skill, already. Is that not true?
I'm glad you asked, it's often a point of confusion.  You are matched with an opponent with the same number of wins and losses as you.  If activity is really low, in a pinch, slightly different wins and losses.  Your past performance in arena and play mode has no effect on your matchmaking.  This is why it's possible for the streamers who get 7+ wins so consistently they profit.  If they were paired based on past performance, everyone but the best player on the server would average 3-3.  The best player would probably average like, 4-3.  There would be little to no incentive to get better.

It's cool to have a mode where actually improving gets you tangible rewards, but the current system makes a lot of players, especially ones unfamiliar with MTG, lose with demoralizing consistency.  I have a friend who took three weeks of questing and even spending real money before he got his first 9.  I got my first 9 the second time I played arena.  He gets smashed so much it's not fun for him, I occasionally am up against people around his skill level that are playing turn 1 coin, wisp, argent squire, secretkeeper as priest where it's just a boring chore to play out the game.  There needs to be a happy medium.

The next patch is not as radical as my proposition but it should bring a welcome improvement: the max number of wins increases to 12.  This means good players like HME will spend a greater proportion of their time paired against players with 8+ wins, the ones that present a good challenge.  There's a trickle down effect that players who go infinite will be spending nontrivial amounts of time in the 8-12 win range, and thus will not be starting anew in the 1-3 win range and steamrolling novice players and degrading their fun.  It will also shift the meta back to a more healthy attitude regarding variance.  MC tech will become a better card for skilled players, the risk that it whiffs in the 1-7 win range is still present, but there's a doubly large range of games with peers where it's variance is worth the strategic role it plays in your deck.  (Ideally you get it to synergize with freezing or shieldbearer or something.)
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popsofctown

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #73 on: December 10, 2013, 12:18:53 am »
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They announced more of the balance patch contents.  Well deserved nerfs to SSC, Flame Imp, and Argent Commander.  Unleash the Hounds removed from the game.

I'm surprised they made SSC a 3/2, instead of a 2/3.  2/3 would be more powerful, and SSC is an interesting card and a cute one so I thought they'd keep it as strong as possible.  That said, I think it's for the best.  In the same breath as I say SSC is interesting, I think cards that require another minion to already to be in play tend to restrict deck design.  And play choices too, do you play Raging Worgen or SSC first? Well that's not a hard one.

Flame Imp was really strong, and Warlock hero power is really strong.  Warlock shouldn't really get to have such nice things.

Argent Commander got a much lighter sentence than SSC, and that makes sense since Shaman would have a monopoly on six drops otherwise, and I think no one noticing and complaining about how insane Fire Elemental is is some sort of inexplicable design goal that Blizz has.  4/2 is probably a sufficient nerf. 

The forums are freaking out now about mage not getting any nerfs.  I'm not sure to what extent I should agree.  I'm leaning towards agreeing.  Blood imp'ed SSC is moving into frostbolt range and Mana Wyrm is a retarded one drop that needs no help from a 3 drop.  And Mage was already pretty good.
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nkirbit

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #74 on: December 10, 2013, 12:47:06 am »
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I just got my beta key, and man, is it fun!
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