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Author Topic: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?  (Read 238946 times)

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ashersky

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2900 on: September 06, 2017, 01:24:37 pm »
0

Any thoughts on upcoming balance changes?

The Innervate change is HUGE and disappointing.

I approve of all the changes except for the Fiery War Axe one. The only problem with the card is that Pirate Warrior is a bit too strong right now, and they're making all control Warriors worse for all eternity just for that reason. Warrior is supposed to have good weapons, but now it has a card that's strictly worse than every other class's comparable weapon.

I don't know...they just made Innervate into Coin.  It used to be a defining Druid card...now it's sort of a Rogue card that all Player 2s get.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2901 on: September 06, 2017, 03:05:19 pm »
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I don't know...they just made Innervate into Coin.  It used to be a defining Druid card...now it's sort of a Rogue card that all Player 2s get.

Well, Counterfeit Coin is good enough in some cases. The same will apply to the new Innervate. I would have preferred the 4 mana, get 6 mana version myself (or something similar), but this isn't horrible.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2902 on: September 06, 2017, 03:30:53 pm »
0

Any thoughts on upcoming balance changes?

The Innervate change is HUGE and disappointing.

I approve of all the changes except for the Fiery War Axe one. The only problem with the card is that Pirate Warrior is a bit too strong right now, and they're making all control Warriors worse for all eternity just for that reason. Warrior is supposed to have good weapons, but now it has a card that's strictly worse than every other class's comparable weapon.

I don't know...they just made Innervate into Coin.  It used to be a defining Druid card...now it's sort of a Rogue card that all Player 2s get.

That would be my issue. They removed class identity with this change. Would've preferred them choose a different route.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2903 on: September 06, 2017, 03:39:32 pm »
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I don't know...they just made Innervate into Coin.  It used to be a defining Druid card...now it's sort of a Rogue card that all Player 2s get.

Well, Counterfeit Coin is good enough in some cases. The same will apply to the new Innervate. I would have preferred the 4 mana, get 6 mana version myself (or something similar), but this isn't horrible.

That's the thing, right?  Counterfeit Coin is a Rogue themed thing, and makes sense there.  Nerfervate just feels like that card instead of a Druid thing.

So I agree with a drastic change that would have stayed on theme being the better move.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2904 on: September 06, 2017, 05:57:31 pm »
+1

Any thoughts on upcoming balance changes?

The Innervate change is HUGE and disappointing.

I approve of all the changes except for the Fiery War Axe one. The only problem with the card is that Pirate Warrior is a bit too strong right now, and they're making all control Warriors worse for all eternity just for that reason. Warrior is supposed to have good weapons, but now it has a card that's strictly worse than every other class's comparable weapon.

It's also strictly worse than King's Defender in Wild. It's probably stronger than a 2 Mana 2/2 vanilla weapon, but a bit of card text would have been nice.

Innervate, I mean Druids were using Gadgetzan Auctioneer at some point just like Rogue. I think there is allowed to be a bit of overlap between classes. Arcane Shot and Holy Smite have been the same card with a different name and class since forever.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2905 on: September 07, 2017, 03:40:55 am »
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Maybe.  I still think Innervate was a key defining card of the class.  Now it's just a coin.  it effectively removes burst ramp as a strategy and deck archetype from the game, as there is only "coining out" minions/spells now, which all classes can do equally as player two and Rogue can do every turn.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2906 on: September 07, 2017, 08:27:37 am »
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Maybe.  I still think Innervate was a key defining card of the class.  Now it's just a coin.  it effectively removes burst ramp as a strategy and deck archetype from the game, as there is only "coining out" minions/spells now, which all classes can do equally as player two and Rogue can do every turn.

Or you can say Rogue has a Druid card in the form of Counterfeit Coin. Innervate is a basic card, while Counterfeit Coin will not always be in standard.

A bit sad how there are already coin generators in the game, e.g. Burgly Bully and Tomb Pillager. In all honesty, Counterfeit Coin seemed like a more thematic name, in a class where it felt more thematic due to already having class cards that generate Coin (Tomb Pillager and Cutpurse).

I think the real question is whether "Burst Ramp" should have ever been a strategy in the first place. Druid still has its other ramp cards.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 08:29:37 am by markusin »
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ashersky

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2907 on: September 07, 2017, 09:09:36 am »
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Maybe.  I still think Innervate was a key defining card of the class.  Now it's just a coin.  it effectively removes burst ramp as a strategy and deck archetype from the game, as there is only "coining out" minions/spells now, which all classes can do equally as player two and Rogue can do every turn.

Or you can say Rogue has a Druid card in the form of Counterfeit Coin. Innervate is a basic card, while Counterfeit Coin will not always be in standard.

A bit sad how there are already coin generators in the game, e.g. Burgly Bully and Tomb Pillager. In all honesty, Counterfeit Coin seemed like a more thematic name, in a class where it felt more thematic due to already having class cards that generate Coin (Tomb Pillager and Cutpurse).

I think the real question is whether "Burst Ramp" should have ever been a strategy in the first place. Druid still has its other ramp cards.

I sort of thought that exact thing about Counterfeit Coin when it came out.

If coins are roguish, okay, kill Innervate completely; don't make it Druid coin.

I think if they don't want burst ramp to exist, they should have made it something like double wild growth for three.  That match other ramp cards by adding empty mana for future turns.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2908 on: September 07, 2017, 09:41:56 pm »
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I mean, it's not unprecedented for 2 cards in different classes to do exactly the same thing.  Look at Arcane Shot and Holy Smite.

As for Fiery War Axe, sure it's now shitty when compared to other 3-cost 3/2 weapons from other classes.  But Warrior has a lot of ways to buff weapons that those other classes just don't get.  Most importantly, that have a lot of ways to increase the durability of their weapons.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2909 on: September 08, 2017, 12:02:28 am »
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Hearthstone during open beta, "some class cards are obviously too powerful for their cost, and are in every single deck of that class due to that power.  We like that, it creates class identity"

Hearthstone now "hey guys, look, this card is in every deck of this class, that's always a bad thing right?  Bad cards can be a part of class identity by the way, Starving Buzzard is really holding Hunter's class identity up right now."

I don't have much of an opinion because I think Hearthstone's factionalization is pretty fubar'ed to begin with, but the stance shifts are so funny.

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2910 on: September 08, 2017, 12:32:18 am »
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Man, I haven't played in a while, and I hadn't come to this thread in a while, and I came in and saw they destroyed Innervate and, OK, nope, I don't need more persuasion not to return.

Seriously, Innervate is just a coin now?  Also, I guess Aggro Warrior is a thing of the past with the War Axe change.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2911 on: September 08, 2017, 02:21:02 am »
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Hearthstone during open beta, "some class cards are obviously too powerful for their cost, and are in every single deck of that class due to that power.  We like that, it creates class identity"

Hearthstone now "hey guys, look, this card is in every deck of this class, that's always a bad thing right?  Bad cards can be a part of class identity by the way, Starving Buzzard is really holding Hunter's class identity up right now."

I don't have much of an opinion because I think Hearthstone's factionalization is pretty fubar'ed to begin with, but the stance shifts are so funny.

One thing to consider here is that during open beta there were much fewer cards in the pool. Even just in standard. Wild is not comparable, and probably never will, since they probably shouldn't balance new stuff towards eternal formats.

I think auto-includes in standard is fine. The problem is when standard always includes basic/classic, since those cards will never rotate out. Wouldn't be very surprised to see a good 2-cost weapon for warrior in the next set.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2912 on: September 08, 2017, 07:44:38 am »
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Hearthstone during open beta, "some class cards are obviously too powerful for their cost, and are in every single deck of that class due to that power.  We like that, it creates class identity"

Hearthstone now "hey guys, look, this card is in every deck of this class, that's always a bad thing right?  Bad cards can be a part of class identity by the way, Starving Buzzard is really holding Hunter's class identity up right now."

I don't have much of an opinion because I think Hearthstone's factionalization is pretty fubar'ed to begin with, but the stance shifts are so funny.

One thing to consider here is that during open beta there were much fewer cards in the pool. Even just in standard. Wild is not comparable, and probably never will, since they probably shouldn't balance new stuff towards eternal formats.

I think auto-includes in standard is fine. The problem is when standard always includes basic/classic, since those cards will never rotate out. Wouldn't be very surprised to see a good 2-cost weapon for warrior in the next set.

I think Warrior should at least get something decent in the 2-mana slot next expansion. There is a fairly big void in the Turn 3 2 (two) slot for non-aggro Warriors, while the Turn 3 slot is fairly crowded now that Fiery War Axe costs 3 Mana. Then again, there is Slam/Cleave into Ravaging Ghoul. I don't know.

Edit: thanks Awaclus for the contradictory quote.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 12:49:58 pm by markusin »
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Awaclus

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2913 on: September 08, 2017, 08:14:32 am »
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There is a fairly big void in the Turn 3 slot for non-aggro Warriors, while the Turn 3 slot is fairly crowded
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2914 on: September 08, 2017, 06:37:27 pm »
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I mean if the issue is that you want Innervate and Fiery War Axe to "rotate out" then you should do that with an actual rotation system like Kibler supports and nerfing every classic card that is useful at all sequentially until none are left.

There's like no excuse for not adding Battlecry: X armor to Fiery War Axe alongside the mana cost nerf.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2915 on: September 08, 2017, 06:42:37 pm »
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I mean if the issue is that you want Innervate and Fiery War Axe to "rotate out" then you should do that with an actual rotation system like Kibler supports and nerfing every classic card that is useful at all sequentially until none are left.

There's like no excuse for not adding Battlecry: X armor to Fiery War Axe alongside the mana cost nerf.

 Excuse: they want basic cards to be simple. You need some vanilla weapons, and there's not that many; what else is there? Arcanite Reaper, assassins blade, Rogue hero power. Am I missing any?
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2916 on: September 09, 2017, 04:49:27 am »
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I mean if the issue is that you want Innervate and Fiery War Axe to "rotate out" then you should do that with an actual rotation system like Kibler supports and nerfing every classic card that is useful at all sequentially until none are left.

There's like no excuse for not adding Battlecry: X armor to Fiery War Axe alongside the mana cost nerf.

I'm all for rotating basic and classic cards.
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markusin

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2917 on: September 09, 2017, 03:08:42 pm »
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I mean if the issue is that you want Innervate and Fiery War Axe to "rotate out" then you should do that with an actual rotation system like Kibler supports and nerfing every classic card that is useful at all sequentially until none are left.

There's like no excuse for not adding Battlecry: X armor to Fiery War Axe alongside the mana cost nerf.

I'm all for rotating basic and classic cards.

The issue is you can't rotate all of them at the same time while making the game accessible to casual players. A separate format that rotate the basic and classic cards would be needed I think.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2918 on: September 11, 2017, 04:06:20 am »
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I mean if the issue is that you want Innervate and Fiery War Axe to "rotate out" then you should do that with an actual rotation system like Kibler supports and nerfing every classic card that is useful at all sequentially until none are left.

There's like no excuse for not adding Battlecry: X armor to Fiery War Axe alongside the mana cost nerf.

I'm all for rotating basic and classic cards.

The issue is you can't rotate all of them at the same time while making the game accessible to casual players. A separate format that rotate the basic and classic cards would be needed I think.

Sure, you can. Currently if you only have basic you'll get crushed no matter if you play wild or standard. Classic is just another set.
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markusin

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2919 on: September 11, 2017, 07:48:43 am »
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I mean if the issue is that you want Innervate and Fiery War Axe to "rotate out" then you should do that with an actual rotation system like Kibler supports and nerfing every classic card that is useful at all sequentially until none are left.

There's like no excuse for not adding Battlecry: X armor to Fiery War Axe alongside the mana cost nerf.

I'm all for rotating basic and classic cards.

The issue is you can't rotate all of them at the same time while making the game accessible to casual players. A separate format that rotate the basic and classic cards would be needed I think.

Sure, you can. Currently if you only have basic you'll get crushed no matter if you play wild or standard. Classic is just another set.

I don't think this is necessarily the case, but the matchmaking might make it seem like that at times. Casual apparently has a hidden MMR, and eventually  you'll see very weak players if you keep losing.

The problem is you paradoxically need lots of game experience to do well with the Classic set nowadays. Probably some sort of Classic face Hunter or burn Mage beats the newbie competition.

Admittedly, Rotating Basic/Classic could work if they gifted players a bunch of packs for each rotation, which you can claim so long as you log in at some point during the year. Expansions alone as they currently are don't do much for class diversity on their own though.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2920 on: September 11, 2017, 08:04:45 am »
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I don't think this is necessarily the case, but the matchmaking might make it seem like that at times. Casual apparently has a hidden MMR, and eventually  you'll see very weak players if you keep losing.

The problem is you paradoxically need lots of game experience to do well with the Classic set nowadays. Probably some sort of Classic face Hunter or burn Mage beats the newbie competition.

I was assuming you play people of the same MMR as yourself. If two Legendary player face off, and one has basic/classic cards only and the other one has the entire "standard" library, I'm pretty sure the one with all the standard cards will win. Pretty much every game. And that was my point. New players without cards other than basic cards will get destroyed by new players with cards. Doesn't matter if it's wild or standard. Move base/classic to wild and you give the new players a VERY SLIGHTLY rougher time, but keep standard healthy. All while there's more reason to buy the newer sets.

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2921 on: September 11, 2017, 08:53:32 am »
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I don't think this is necessarily the case, but the matchmaking might make it seem like that at times. Casual apparently has a hidden MMR, and eventually  you'll see very weak players if you keep losing.

The problem is you paradoxically need lots of game experience to do well with the Classic set nowadays. Probably some sort of Classic face Hunter or burn Mage beats the newbie competition.

I was assuming you play people of the same MMR as yourself. If two Legendary player face off, and one has basic/classic cards only and the other one has the entire "standard" library, I'm pretty sure the one with all the standard cards will win. Pretty much every game. And that was my point. New players without cards other than basic cards will get destroyed by new players with cards. Doesn't matter if it's wild or standard. Move base/classic to wild and you give the new players a VERY SLIGHTLY rougher time, but keep standard healthy. All while there's more reason to buy the newer sets.

Well, at the start of Standard, Standard was considered the official mode of sorts. I think they wanted to minimize outrage by leaving an evergreen set for the "official" mode despite suggestions to rotate Basic/Classic as well. Wild has gotten more spotlight since then.

I'm not sure how detrimental the Basic set on its own (without classic) is detrimental to the health of Standard anyway. Most basic neutrals are fairly weak, while most class basic cards are not on the level of old Fiery War Axe in power level. Heck, you can already find reason not to run 2x Fireball or Consecration for really specific decks.

If players are going to get destroyed without expansion cards no matter what, there shouldn't be too much harm in nerfing whatever basic cards need to be nerfed to make the whole Basic Set fringe and just leave it evergreen as a set perpetually below the power curve.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2922 on: September 11, 2017, 09:31:12 am »
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By nerf-rotating you make the cards worthless all across the board. If you just regluar rotate them, you can still play FWA, Innervate, Fireball and whatever cards you like (as long as they fit your deck) in Wild. By removing the cards alltogether through nerfs, all the cards you get for free are totally worthless.

To be fair, I disagree mostly with the decision to always include Classic in standard. I don't see why that set has to be in forever. But I don't really see why Basic has to be in there. Make similar cards in the new sets. Rotate FWA and give Warrior another cheap weapon. If it turns out it's too powerful, let them have no early super weapon in the upcoming sets and it will rotate out.
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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2923 on: September 11, 2017, 09:36:50 am »
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Well, they can also buff cards. It's not out of the question to return Fiery War Axe back to normal in a future Standard environment where the Pirates aren't a problem any longer.

Not very likely perhaps, considering Blizzard's past record of balance changes, but technically nothing is preventing them from doing so.
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markusin

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Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
« Reply #2924 on: September 11, 2017, 10:52:17 am »
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By nerf-rotating you make the cards worthless all across the board. If you just regluar rotate them, you can still play FWA, Innervate, Fireball and whatever cards you like (as long as they fit your deck) in Wild. By removing the cards alltogether through nerfs, all the cards you get for free are totally worthless.

To be fair, I disagree mostly with the decision to always include Classic in standard. I don't see why that set has to be in forever. But I don't really see why Basic has to be in there. Make similar cards in the new sets. Rotate FWA and give Warrior another cheap weapon. If it turns out it's too powerful, let them have no early super weapon in the upcoming sets and it will rotate out.

I'm just wondering why they need to make similar cards in future sets, using up card slots in the expansion, just to replace Basic cards holding up class identity when they can just keep using those Basic cards. I guess the idea you're proposing is like those "core sets" in MtG where you only include the staples you want to include for that rotation. In that case, the Hearthstone team can selectively allow only part of the Basic set into Standard, and change the subset of Standard legal Basic cards after each rotation. To me, a subset Basic cards rotating in and out sounds like a good way to go about things if they are willing to put the effort to make it work.
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