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Kirian

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GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« on: August 19, 2013, 11:26:34 am »
0

Please also post your match results here, as well as commentary and discussion.
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Geronimoo

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2013, 05:27:45 pm »
+2

Second round and I already have to face a very strong opponent: DG. First game features IGG and Cultist. DG opens Cultist/- and I go for Nomad Camp/IGG and just start hammering the IGG's in the next turns while DG gets a second Cultist. His draws seem quite poor (at least 2 dead turns) and I seem to win easily despite him spiking a Province.

Second game features the interesting choice of Bishop/Hunting Party stack or Taxman/Hunting Party. Since it's a Colony game I figure Taxman should be nice, but I missed that it was also a Shelters game so those would hurt my HP stacking ability. DG goes for a simple Rogue/HP strategy and it pays off (maybe the singleton Counterfeit won him the game?)

Game three is where things get really interesting. A board full of power cards: Rebuild, Witch, King's Court, Jack and City. Since it's a Shelters game Rebuild is going to be slightly worse than Witch. We both open Jack/Silver, but DG goes straight for Rebuilds (despite having no Victory cards in his deck). He gets a KC somewhere and somehow connects it with the Rebuild for an awesome turn. He's not the only one to get lucky because I get to connect my KC with Witch. I squeak out the win thanks to Witch dealing out the last Curse + Estate for a 3 pile ending.

Game four is probably the most boring of all as we both go for double Witch. He gets a lot of $5 hands which is bad on this board because you need to buy Silver. I get a few $6s and the better economy gives me an easy win (there were also Goons, but they didn't affect the game that much).
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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2013, 07:32:12 pm »
0

/tag
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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2013, 12:13:46 am »
+1

Having lost the first round to a skilled but less highly ranked opponent, I found myself really craving the win here (I do so, so poorly in tournaments).

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1376961194057.txt
A clear Big Money board, but which terminals to get? I use my Baker token on a Haggler/Hermit opening. The Hermit doesn't feel so important to me, but I know I can crunch up those Shelters and Silver gaining will be nice. The Haggler I do believe is the clear choice at $5, but my opponent prefers to pair his Hermit with Merchant Ship. I just don't have much love for Merchant Ship, personally. In any event, Haggler serves me extremely well here; I can gain Bakers off Golds, Golds off Provinces, and take a late-game Apprentice gain to really close things out, but I don't need it. An easy win.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1376962440020.txt
Smithy, Ironmonger, Village, Pawn and Stonemason lend themselves strongly to engine building here. However, SM is the only trashing, and worse, there's just nothing for the engine to do here, other than draw your whole deck. It's like a just Base engine, if you know what I mean. Anyway, we both make liberal use of SM's overpay aspect, which is really nice here, and SM is actually nice for Copper trashing (well, it's not ideal, but it's better than nothing). Light Copper trashing really helps the Ironmongers here. Anyway, my opponent simply gets too fancy. He's definitely still in the game, although he SMs a Smithy into 2 Villages, and then does this again--a questionable move, I think, given that villages are more plentiful than draw here. But then he loads up on Treasure Maps??? Later he tells me he wanted to SM lots of Golds into Duchy/Duke. It's a neat idea, and I commend him for it, but he was probably going to have three pile problems at that point, even if he could pull it off. As it is, he just draws horribly, and can't line things up. Safely ahead, I can win off SM trashing and overpay gains. That really is a neat card for closing out games, by the way.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1376963917665.txt
My opponent opens 5/2 with Cultist. That's never something I want to see! I'm Silver/Silver all day here--just need the Cultists. I actually buy a Throne Room off my $4 hand right before the second reshuffle. I only have the one Cultist, so I know this is a *bad* purchase, but I figure if I get lucky and collide them, it will negate his advantage, and if I don't oh well, just would have been a Silver. So I like that call, even though they didn't collide. Still, some fortunate Cultist chaining means we split the Ruins. What goes wrong for him after that? He just never hits $5 for some reason, and I hit it over and over again, loading up on Level 2 Cities. He seems more committed to trashing than I am (even though we have an equal number of Trade Routes, he seems to get to them faster with more Wishing Wells and Thrones). But... Cities, man. He has no third pile, and I have a Province anyway, so I can safely buy them out, and then his trashing advantage is actually a hindrance, because we're both drawing our whole decks, but mine has money in it and his doesn't.

Thanks for the games! My opponent must have been frustrated with his shuffle luck in Games 2 and 3. It was brutal.
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2013, 12:55:15 am »
0

Having lost the first round to a skilled but less highly ranked opponent, I found myself really craving the win here (I do so, so poorly in tournaments).

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1376961194057.txt
A clear Big Money board, but which terminals to get? I use my Baker token on a Haggler/Hermit opening. The Hermit doesn't feel so important to me, but I know I can crunch up those Shelters and Silver gaining will be nice. The Haggler I do believe is the clear choice at $5, but my opponent prefers to pair his Hermit with Merchant Ship. I just don't have much love for Merchant Ship, personally. In any event, Haggler serves me extremely well here; I can gain Bakers off Golds, Golds off Provinces, and take a late-game Apprentice gain to really close things out, but I don't need it. An easy win.

You know, I got 5 Provinces in 12 turns here. Pretty good for non-draw Big Money.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2013, 08:30:42 am »
+2

Having lost the first round to a skilled but less highly ranked opponent, I found myself really craving the win here (I do so, so poorly in tournaments).

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1376961194057.txt
A clear Big Money board, but which terminals to get? I use my Baker token on a Haggler/Hermit opening. The Hermit doesn't feel so important to me, but I know I can crunch up those Shelters and Silver gaining will be nice. The Haggler I do believe is the clear choice at $5, but my opponent prefers to pair his Hermit with Merchant Ship. I just don't have much love for Merchant Ship, personally. In any event, Haggler serves me extremely well here; I can gain Bakers off Golds, Golds off Provinces, and take a late-game Apprentice gain to really close things out, but I don't need it. An easy win.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1376962440020.txt
Smithy, Ironmonger, Village, Pawn and Stonemason lend themselves strongly to engine building here. However, SM is the only trashing, and worse, there's just nothing for the engine to do here, other than draw your whole deck. It's like a just Base engine, if you know what I mean. Anyway, we both make liberal use of SM's overpay aspect, which is really nice here, and SM is actually nice for Copper trashing (well, it's not ideal, but it's better than nothing). Light Copper trashing really helps the Ironmongers here. Anyway, my opponent simply gets too fancy. He's definitely still in the game, although he SMs a Smithy into 2 Villages, and then does this again--a questionable move, I think, given that villages are more plentiful than draw here. But then he loads up on Treasure Maps??? Later he tells me he wanted to SM lots of Golds into Duchy/Duke. It's a neat idea, and I commend him for it, but he was probably going to have three pile problems at that point, even if he could pull it off. As it is, he just draws horribly, and can't line things up. Safely ahead, I can win off SM trashing and overpay gains. That really is a neat card for closing out games, by the way.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1376963917665.txt
My opponent opens 5/2 with Cultist. That's never something I want to see! I'm Silver/Silver all day here--just need the Cultists. I actually buy a Throne Room off my $4 hand right before the second reshuffle. I only have the one Cultist, so I know this is a *bad* purchase, but I figure if I get lucky and collide them, it will negate his advantage, and if I don't oh well, just would have been a Silver. So I like that call, even though they didn't collide. Still, some fortunate Cultist chaining means we split the Ruins. What goes wrong for him after that? He just never hits $5 for some reason, and I hit it over and over again, loading up on Level 2 Cities. He seems more committed to trashing than I am (even though we have an equal number of Trade Routes, he seems to get to them faster with more Wishing Wells and Thrones). But... Cities, man. He has no third pile, and I have a Province anyway, so I can safely buy them out, and then his trashing advantage is actually a hindrance, because we're both drawing our whole decks, but mine has money in it and his doesn't.

Videos are uploading now. I'll post with links and write-ups in a bit. I've slept on it but I still haven't fully digested all of what happened here.

Game 1: I thought that Haggler and Hermit would both gain things and I wanted something to complement my Hermit-gaining. After seeing it play out, Haggler was clearly superior because of the presence of Baker.

Game 2: I didn't mind the Stonemason-trashes early in the game, I thought they were the best I could have done with a bad draw. Perhaps I should have gotten one or two Oracles instead of Villages, though. I think my main mistake this game could have been just letting piles get so low. I played for a much longer game and I would have been able to do some really cool stuff, but I let piles get so low so early and I just didn't have time.

EDIT: Bad draws in game 2 == poor shuffle management.

I think Stonemason+Treasure Map+Duke could have been huge, so I'll disagree that there was nothing "cool to do" once you've drawn your deck.

Game 3: My first Trade Route "Shoulda been a Silver"™, but I think other than that I played well. OK maybe my wishing was silly, but I think the game was lost before that really mattered.

Thanks for the games! My opponent must have been frustrated with his shuffle luck in Games 2 and 3. It was brutal.

Robz, you played better than me, which is the object of the game, which is why you won. "Bad shuffle luck" is a result of poor play, and you built your decks better in both games. I'm frustrated that I didn't play better. I'm just trying to come up with something productive I can take from these two rounds and all I can get is "Wharf is a swingy card." I need to do some serious thinking about my play style, I think.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 09:50:24 am by AdamH »
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nopawnsintended

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2013, 09:36:49 am »
0

My first Trade Route "Shoulda been a Silver"™

+1 for this in lieu of "/tag"
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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2013, 09:45:28 am »
+1

I'm undefeated against "bye" this round.
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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2013, 10:48:07 am »
0

watching the watcher.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2013, 02:48:25 pm »
+1

kn1tt3r vs. Revered Peasant - 3.5:0.5

Videos are uploading.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130820/log.505c84d751c3249282789115.1377020790204.txt
Grand Market with Count trashing. I go a bit more for chaining (Bazaar), he a bit more for money (Gold). In the end I think I have a better deck, but he manages to squeeze out a tie.
Video:

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130820/log.505c84d751c3249282789115.1377020867117.txt
Very aggressive board with Mountebank and Knights as the key cards. I get more lucky with the Knights, go a bit more for money than he does (i.e. no Highways), and can win by 3-piling.
Video:

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130820/log.505c84d751c3249282789115.1377022283636.txt
He plays something around Baron/Money with 2-3 more actions scattered in at some point. I go for the Rabble engine, which should be far superior here. We both made mistakes here (mostly around missed or misplayed Farmland plays), but in the end it works out for me.
Video:

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130820/log.505c84d751c3249282789115.1377023209230.txt
Minions with quite some support. I win the split, have a much better deck, and he ultimately resigns.
Video:
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 08:19:56 am by kn1tt3r »
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RTT

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2013, 05:05:17 pm »
0

RTT vs. 2.71828....  3-0
1.Game Video
http://youtu.be/kBXZDS9pAmY
2.Game Video
http://youtu.be/nJAT0j7wysI
3.Game Video
http://youtu.be/qH_P3KwnSQw
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 05:13:38 pm by RTT »
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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2013, 05:31:01 pm »
+2

WanderingWinder 3 - 1 scott pilgrim

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1376969406760.txt
Band of Misfits. I use it as Steward early, then mostly throne room and monument, with a touch of herald and an accidental advisor (somehow I got it confused with herald for a second?). I trash down a good bit faster and further than sp, get a couple fewer nobles (but still some), and basically sit and pile up gobs of points, and provinces here and there, but with no particular haste. This one wasn't close, and I'm not sure if he could have trashed further (probably I think so to an extent) or just drew too badly (probably at least a component).

Quote
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1376969816011.txt
Rebuild, the annoyance of so many, myself included. I go for multiple feast for heavy rebuilds. And I pick up estate number four, which should be getting me in good shape, I think, but I draw it with the next rebuild, giving me problems. Meanwhile, my opponent just went rebuild+schemes (more or less), which may very well be a little better anyway. I get a scheme at some point but never have the chance to use it. And then I must mention that I make a terrible mistake (as though I lost my mind) in naming estate rather than province fairly late in the game - islands and fairgrounds were present and I *had* an island I'd just bought. This basically slammed the door on me, but I think I was already well behind.

Quote
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1376970719445.txt

This one was weird. I go for urchin/mercenary and get it reasonably fast but not amazingly so - and it's a bit wonky, and I never get as trashed as I'd expected. I also go university, primarily for mass mystic (I eventually get 9). But it takes me forever to get going. Fortunately for me, sp gets LOTS of urchins and cannot get them to collide for a very long time. I think this was probably a bit of overkill, but I'm not 100% on that, and it was certainly unlucky. So I come out with a lead anyway, and I am just flirting with the edge of striking distance for a long time as the game fizzles.

Quote
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1376971290972.txt
So, he goes for rats and bishop. I go for basically money with a tribute, cellar, and a few pillages sprinkled in. Eventually a bishop of my own. I didn't think this rats/bishop thing was very good, and I frankly still don't, but it's a lot better than I had reckoned, and the board was very very weak, so it's not like there was big opportunity cost for it. He gets a couple provinces along with everything, and I am barely able to steal a 1-point victory on first-turn advantage before I get totally locked out.

michaeljb

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2013, 01:25:26 am »
+2

microman 3 - 3 michaeljb

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.505c85050cf27cdcceaba6ca.1376969418938.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.505c85050cf27cdcceaba6ca.1376970256642.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.505c85050cf27cdcceaba6ca.1376970788650.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.505c85050cf27cdcceaba6ca.1376971632888.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.505c85050cf27cdcceaba6ca.1376972666474.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.505c85050cf27cdcceaba6ca.1376973851109.txt

After losing game 5, I managed to secure the match tie by Junk Dealing a Province on my final turn in game 6.

I'll try to add more comments tomorrow, right now time for bed.

Thanks for the good games microman, it was fun to have a Curse vs Province game (forum avatar).

Game 1
microman got 5/2 with Witch on the board, and I didn't get a 2nd Witch at my first chance for whatever reason. I passed on Forge, figuring it wouldn't be that useful, but microman did play it for a Province twice.

Game 2
The shuffling pretty much gave me this game. It was my turn for a 5/2, this time on a Hunting Party/Goons/Peddler/Colony board. Purchases on my first 5 turns were: Cellar/Hunting Party/Silver/Goons/Hunting Party. Goons was the only +buy, and there were no villages, so I wasn't going to be able to run out 3 piles terribly quickly, and microman resigned after I picked up my first Colony.

Game 3
microman got Dame Molly on turn 1, and held on to her till the end. I lost Sir Michael the first time I played him. A couple times I trashed 2 Coppers with Steward when I could have afforded Gold with +2 coins instead; thinning my deck as much as I did I think left me more vulnerable to the Knight attacks, and after my last Gold was gone I didn't hit 6 again for Gold or Hunting Grounds, giving microman time to catch up and take the game.

Game 4
I sure love Butcher when there's a good $2, so I can remodel my Estates into something useful and hang on to the Coin tokens. I also figured Ruins-->Copper would be ok, but that only happened once. The 2 coin tokens per player was huge, though. I never used more than 2 on a turn, only ever used 1 as part of the Butcher action (Marauder --> Duchy), and they were a huge part of getting me to 5 Provinces.

Game 5
Another Goons-but-no-village board, and I foolishly thought Altar would help me get a Lab advantage. I think I would have been better off by just buying another Lab, or a Gold, or just a second Goons. Not much else going on here, and I bought the last Province for the loss just to end it.

Game 6
Junk Dealers, Storeroom, a Butcher hoping to expand Junk Dealers, and I opened with Great Hall to dump the Hovel early (probably a stronger move on a real engine board?). I completely ignored Hermits, while microman did end up playing 2 Madmans, and held on to his Necropolis, pulling off a couple nice-looking Menagerie-engine type turns. I used Butcher once to trash a Province from the supply, then on my next turn had 1 coin token remaining, with Junk Dealer, 2 Silvers, and 2 Coppers in hand, and had 0 cards left in my draw pile. Fortunately I was in the lead at that point, so no matter what I drew I could Junk Deal it away and use the last coin token to hit $8 for the win, and I happened to trash a Province, earning a match tie.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2013, 08:19:04 am »
+1

Video playlist link:

Game 1:
Game 2:
Game 3:

It's clear what I did incorrectly in this match. I guess my bigger issues is that for both of these matches I've been in this weird frame of mind where I make these poor plays that are uncharacteristic of me. Lack of focus in a big money deck, for example. I'm the kind of person that will buy Silver over other cards to my own detriment. Sure I'm learning stuff from these matches but if I'm going to continue to be ineffective when I actually play them then I'm not learning enough.
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StrongRhino

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2013, 01:33:58 pm »
+2

StrongRhino 2-4 Young Nick

SR http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.512fe24ce4b08cb66ebe7d7f.1377103072047.txt
SR http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.512fe24ce4b08cb66ebe7d7f.1377103401235.txt
YN http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.512fe24ce4b08cb66ebe7d7f.1377104045244.txt
YN http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.512fe24ce4b08cb66ebe7d7f.1377104516505.txt
YN http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.512fe24ce4b08cb66ebe7d7f.1377104891827.txt
YN http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.512fe24ce4b08cb66ebe7d7f.1377105729902.txt

I go ahead early with a more engine-y deck in game 1, 3-piling. Next match I somehow win with a clearly inferior deck. I realize I can win the match with one win in the next two games, and perhaps get overconfident. I proceed to lose the next three games, where I think Young Nick played better than me, including one where I didn't notice he had already bought 2 Duchys on a Duke board, and lose. The last game I had some terrible early Wharf luck and proceed to get steamrolled with Vineyards.

It was pretty fun still though, thanks for the matches.
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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2013, 02:05:13 pm »
+1

Adam, your second kingdom is actually very complicated due to the stonemason. I'd go back and revisit that and not look for the complications, but instead assess how you were weighing up strategies. Quite often your draws seemed to dictate your play, turn by turn, without a clear vision in the commentary of what your deck would deliver and how it needed to be done. For example you don't seem to give much consideration to duchy/duke until mid game, then the decision was taken away from you by a three pile ending, and I'm not convinced you were prepared for any of that. Framing your deck planning within a full game plan will help your general play.
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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2013, 02:48:29 pm »
+1

Adam, your second kingdom is actually very complicated due to the stonemason. I'd go back and revisit that and not look for the complications, but instead assess how you were weighing up strategies. Quite often your draws seemed to dictate your play, turn by turn, without a clear vision in the commentary of what your deck would deliver and how it needed to be done. For example you don't seem to give much consideration to duchy/duke until mid game, then the decision was taken away from you by a three pile ending, and I'm not convinced you were prepared for any of that. Framing your deck planning within a full game plan will help your general play.

In tournament videos I don't make an effort to articulate my entire thought process because I try and focus more on the game (perhaps I shouldn't approach it this way?). This is the best I can remember what my thought process was for Game 2:

Before the game: See draw engine with no trashing. I'm tempted to just play BM+Smithy or BM+Oracle or something, but if I go for Provinces and do that, my opponent building the draw engine will crush me with Duchy/Duke because he's playing the long game.

OK that means I need to play the long game, and that means I want to build the engine.

I think up until this point I'm right. However, I was mistaken in that this meant the game was going to be long. Of course if my opponent goes for the same thing the game will end on piles and I should have seen that. My Grand Master Plan™ of colliding Treasure Maps and Stonemason-trashing the Golds into Duchy/Dukes would have just taken way too long unless my opponent was going for Provinces.

I build my engine with that as the goal, instead of keep my finger on the pulse of the game. The next time I reconsidered my plan was after buying the first Province which was entirely too late.

Robz adapted to what was going on and I didn't, which was made a lot easier because he knew he would have to and got Ironmongers, which help a TONNE with that.

...but I'm not usually horrible about that! I usually adapt pretty well, and as I'm describing this, I feel like it's something I should have seen, but it didn't cross my mind to be pre-emptive or adaptable to it. I'm concerned that I'm playing my tournament games with that attitude.
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Young Nick

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2013, 03:26:35 pm »
+2

StrongRhino 2-4 Young Nick

SR http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.512fe24ce4b08cb66ebe7d7f.1377103072047.txt
SR http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.512fe24ce4b08cb66ebe7d7f.1377103401235.txt
YN http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.512fe24ce4b08cb66ebe7d7f.1377104045244.txt
YN http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.512fe24ce4b08cb66ebe7d7f.1377104516505.txt
YN http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.512fe24ce4b08cb66ebe7d7f.1377104891827.txt
YN http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.512fe24ce4b08cb66ebe7d7f.1377105729902.txt

I go ahead early with a more engine-y deck in game 1, 3-piling. Next match I somehow win with a clearly inferior deck. I realize I can win the match with one win in the next two games, and perhaps get overconfident. I proceed to lose the next three games, where I think Young Nick played better than me, including one where I didn't notice he had already bought 2 Duchys on a Duke board, and lose. The last game I had some terrible early Wharf luck and proceed to get steamrolled with Vineyards.

It was pretty fun still though, thanks for the matches.

Game 1 is further proof that I am still not comfortable with DA. With Hermit and Cultist, I was unsure if the trashing he got from Hermit would make up for my better Cultist stack/chain. I tried to throw some WV and Squires in for +actions, but ultimately it wasn't enough; my deck was not tight enough.

I was shocked I lost Game 2. I had more of everything and I countered most of his Mountebank plays with my Traders. I mean, yeah SR had one more Caravan than me, but I had 5 more Silver and 2 more Gold with fewer Copper to boot. And it wasn't even close. Huh.

Game 3 was interesting. His Watchtowers helped out a lot with both of us playing Soothsayer. Ultimately, though, I had a much more BM-based strategy and my Platinum were able to carry me through.

Game 4 was a basic Duke game. I used Scavenger as support and after pulling two early Gold, I jump into Duchies. As SR said, he(?) wasn't totally aware that game and I had it in the bag pretty early as a result.

Game 5 was a Rebuild game. Basically a coin toss. I definitely am no expert with Rebuild (see my aforementioned lack of experience with DA), but played this one well enough I suppose. I did have one stray Rebuild play on turn 11 where I didn't have any non-Colony Victory cards to trash but still escaped unscathed. Damn I need to re-read those good Rebuild strategy articles.

Game 6 was a Vineyards game where I loaded up on Potions before SR. Winning the Vineyard split easily, I just coasted to a final victory while slowly depleting piles.

I would love feedback on Game 1; it was an interesting kingdom. And if anyone can tell me something I am not seeing about Game 2, please let me know. Criticism and feedback, please!!

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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2013, 04:03:33 pm »
0

Adam, your second kingdom is actually very complicated due to the stonemason. I'd go back and revisit that and not look for the complications, but instead assess how you were weighing up strategies. Quite often your draws seemed to dictate your play, turn by turn, without a clear vision in the commentary of what your deck would deliver and how it needed to be done. For example you don't seem to give much consideration to duchy/duke until mid game, then the decision was taken away from you by a three pile ending, and I'm not convinced you were prepared for any of that. Framing your deck planning within a full game plan will help your general play.

In tournament videos I don't make an effort to articulate my entire thought process because I try and focus more on the game (perhaps I shouldn't approach it this way?). This is the best I can remember what my thought process was for Game 2:

Before the game: See draw engine with no trashing. I'm tempted to just play BM+Smithy or BM+Oracle or something, but if I go for Provinces and do that, my opponent building the draw engine will crush me with Duchy/Duke because he's playing the long game.

OK that means I need to play the long game, and that means I want to build the engine.

I think up until this point I'm right. However, I was mistaken in that this meant the game was going to be long. Of course if my opponent goes for the same thing the game will end on piles and I should have seen that. My Grand Master Plan™ of colliding Treasure Maps and Stonemason-trashing the Golds into Duchy/Dukes would have just taken way too long unless my opponent was going for Provinces.

I build my engine with that as the goal, instead of keep my finger on the pulse of the game. The next time I reconsidered my plan was after buying the first Province which was entirely too late.

Robz adapted to what was going on and I didn't, which was made a lot easier because he knew he would have to and got Ironmongers, which help a TONNE with that.

...but I'm not usually horrible about that! I usually adapt pretty well, and as I'm describing this, I feel like it's something I should have seen, but it didn't cross my mind to be pre-emptive or adaptable to it. I'm concerned that I'm playing my tournament games with that attitude.

I think your deck failed in that game because 1) You got bad luck, and 2) You didn't have nearly enough draw.
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awildnoobappeared

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2013, 08:23:19 am »
+1

Indur d. awildnoobappeared 3-1

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.516d07bbe4b082c74d7a90a7.1377170244732.txt
I get wrecked quite hard by Cultist in this game. My Spice Merchant falls to turn 5 and that sets me back quite a bit, but my deck building is kind of unfocused anyway - Great Hall on turn 3 to get rid of Hovel is quite a waste.
I thought I might be able to somehow force a tie on the last turn, but I miscounted my provinces.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.516d07bbe4b082c74d7a90a7.1377171171961.txt
I see University and decide to use that to get the more expensive trashing options (Upgrade, Trading Post) and maybe some Death Carts for money. Big mistake, as Indur helps himself to Tournaments and gets first choice of prize.
Next time I try this sort of University shenanigans I'll make sure there's some draw on the board.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.516d07bbe4b082c74d7a90a7.1377171444901.txt
Not much to say here, Indur's Chapel falls to turn 5 and by turn 7 my deck is Tournament/Tournament/Poorhouse/Gold/Province.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.516d07bbe4b082c74d7a90a7.1377172778912.txt
By far the most interesting game of the match. We both open 5/2 and neither of us really wanted Library (yet). I open Plaza with an eye for saving up $ for Goons, while Indur makes the better choice of a Talisman.
Library, Goons, Plaza, Oasis and Herald are all key cards, and with Talisman Indur is able to get more Heralds, which I think are the key difference between his deck and mine.
The end result was closer than I expected, but Indur's deck was far stronger than mine and more reliably able to play multi-Goons turns.
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zporiri

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2013, 12:33:29 pm »
+1

3 zporiri - pitrpicko 3

some interesting, drawn out games where end game strategy meant a lot.

37 zporiri - pitrpicko 34
An engine that really lacked +buy. we both opened silver/moneylender and i was able to buy labs on my first 3 turns. he went for more economy/less engine since he didnt have perfect shuffle luck as i did :P. my originally plan was to add in an explorer with the lab engine, but he started going for provinces so soon i felt like i didnt have time. he apprenticed a province to buy the last one, but only ended up with $7 (really unlucky), which killed him. i stonemasoned a gold for two duchies to keep up. neither one of us could get $8 for the last province, and eventually i 3 piled on labs (duchies+estates) to win. he probably shouldve won this one.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5070529651c34c5abec034ad.1377181483311.txt

7 zporiri - pitrpicko 11
village+conspirator+lab+margrave engine with doctor for trashing and possession for fun and soothsayer for cursing. i was expecting to slim down with doctor super fast and not have to worry about sooth sayer, but my first two doctor turns missed which killed me. my only chance from there was possession. he won this one, and rightly so.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5070529651c34c5abec034ad.1377183758712.txt

5 zporiri - pitrpicko 48
treasure map game with steward for trashing. he opens plaza/steward which really helped him soothe out his turns, picking up another steward on turn 3. i opened double steward, but his opening seemed to be better. he got his treasure maps a couple turns before me, and without +buy i was done. also didnt help that i didnt connect my treasure maps in my 6 card deck :). i ignored provinces and went for vineyards because i had a super super super slim chance at winning that way as opposed to contesting him for provinces.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5070529651c34c5abec034ad.1377184444426.txt

50 zporiri - pitrpicko 43
the pivotal game 4. crazy action game with peddler, pawn, city, herald and cols+plats. i opened trader/pawn to trash some coppers, but couldnt resist trashing esates and buying more pawns on two turns (pawns to help get lots of peddlers), and those silvers hurt me a lot. i was barely able to pull off a double province turn on the last turn to win the the help of level 3 cities. fun game.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5070529651c34c5abec034ad.1377185513962.txt

zporiri 6 - pitrpicko 24
a tournament game with scrying pool, squire, and forager. i felt like my scrying pool strategy was superior to his strategy of loading up on tournament and foragers, but i misplayed this game very badly, i wish i could have this one back. if i had gotten another forager sooner i couldve trashed quicker and gotten provinces sooner. i really needed/wanted those followers. he got provinces before me, and that was all she wrote.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5070529651c34c5abec034ad.1377186346224.txt

zporiri wins by resignation (i got a phone call on my last turn, winning turn and was taking a while so pitrpicko resigned. sorry about that :) )
anotehr scrying pool game, this time with fishing village, nobles, and hamlets. death carts came into play late for extra economy. i bought two on one turn instead of double duchying at the end of the game (i needed a big turn to come back) and it turned out to be the right decision. scrying pool didnt mind the ruins, and i got my big turn at the end to win.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5070529651c34c5abec034ad.1377187811935.txt

some of the more interesting games ive plaed in a while, particularly the end game strategy that came into play. thanks to pitrpicko for the great games and sorry about the phone call at the end!
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2013, 01:42:29 pm »
+1

Joseph2302 and HiveMindEmulator rejoice in their shared victory!

J http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377188308481.txt
J http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377189157958.txt
H http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377189986539.txt
H http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377190772127.txt
J http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377192370078.txt
H http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377192809105.txt

Gmae 1 was Squire + Mint. Joseph went straight into Golds and Provinces, while I went into Highways, but kept Minting Silvers. The Silvers ended up getting in the way too much, and with no attacks other than a Pirate Ship, I couldn't slow him down enough to catch up.

Game 2 we went Cultists. He transtitioned into money, while I tried to build up into a Rabble engine with Pillage. But with Border Villages and Ruins out, he was able to end it on piles before I could do anything.

Game 3 was Ambassador + Tactician with no villages. He favored returning Estates to Coppers to keep buying power to add Ventures, hoping to buy stuff on non-Tactician turns. I just tried to slim down smaller to have more Tactician turns and I was barely able to squeeze it out (despite accidentally trashing a Tactician).

Game 4 started out with Ambassadors as well. This time he went for Counterfeit + Mine planning to double-play Golds for Provinces. I went for an Apprentice/HoP megaturn. With the prolonged early-game from Ambassador, I had plenty of time to build up Apprentice fuel with Armory, Mine, and HoP, and he only had 3 Provinces at turn 18 when the megaturn went off.

Game 5 I have no idea what happened. He bough a couple Remakes, turned one into a Jester and then bought Provinces every turn turns 9-12.

Game 6 was another money game. I had a 5/2 and opened Torturer/Courtyard vs his Silver/Silver.I bought a Noble Brigand on turn 3 that hit a Silver, which put him significantly behind, and I was able to ride out Apprentices to maintain the lead.

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Joseph2302

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2013, 02:02:11 pm »
+2

Joseph2302 3-3 HiveMindEmulator

Game 1: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377188308481.txt

Not convinced by the Mint/Squire opening here, and I did get quite lucky with minting golds twice (turns 10 & 13), ultimately my first turn advantage kept me ahead on VPs, so he couldn't end the game and win.

Game 2: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377189157958.txt

Cultist was the main card here, with Border Village helping. I get some provinces, but his contraband stops him getting valuable cards, such as Rabbles and later Provinces. I get ahead and (quite easily) run out the Cultist pile to end the game.

Game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377189986539.txt

Ambassador game, with Junk Dealer & Tactician as other main cards. I buy an altar, which doesn't do much, and my ventures were a bit hit and miss (like they tend to be), ultimately was close but won on a last tactician turn by him.

Game 4: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377190772127.txt

Another ambassador game, I counterfeit my coppers away, whilst he uses armory/plaza- seemed to work quite well, as coin tokens can be saved. He also gets more HoPs, which help him eventually win on a big last turn, coming from behind.

Game 5: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377192370078.txt

I open Silver/Remake, which I think is better here than Smugglers/Remake, as it's essentially a big money board. Just a big money + remake/jester, which I win.

Game 6: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1377192809105.txt

Such a close decider, unfortunately I lose by a point.
He goes for many Noble Brigs, whilst I buy an early Apprentice, his Torturer wasn't even used, and was eventually trashed. Greening including tunnels (to block NBs) starts, and I eventually lose narrowly, after a well-calculated last turn by HiveMindEmulator to win.

Thanks for the games, and so close, a good "shared victory". :)

Note: When writing this, I hadn't read the writeup of HiveMindEmulator about our games...
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2013, 05:57:06 pm »
+2

WanderingWinder 3 - 1 scott pilgrim

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1376969406760.txt
Band of Misfits. I use it as Steward early, then mostly throne room and monument, with a touch of herald and an accidental advisor (somehow I got it confused with herald for a second?). I trash down a good bit faster and further than sp, get a couple fewer nobles (but still some), and basically sit and pile up gobs of points, and provinces here and there, but with no particular haste. This one wasn't close, and I'm not sure if he could have trashed further (probably I think so to an extent) or just drew too badly (probably at least a component).

Quote
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1376969816011.txt
Rebuild, the annoyance of so many, myself included. I go for multiple feast for heavy rebuilds. And I pick up estate number four, which should be getting me in good shape, I think, but I draw it with the next rebuild, giving me problems. Meanwhile, my opponent just went rebuild+schemes (more or less), which may very well be a little better anyway. I get a scheme at some point but never have the chance to use it. And then I must mention that I make a terrible mistake (as though I lost my mind) in naming estate rather than province fairly late in the game - islands and fairgrounds were present and I *had* an island I'd just bought. This basically slammed the door on me, but I think I was already well behind.

Quote
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1376970719445.txt

This one was weird. I go for urchin/mercenary and get it reasonably fast but not amazingly so - and it's a bit wonky, and I never get as trashed as I'd expected. I also go university, primarily for mass mystic (I eventually get 9). But it takes me forever to get going. Fortunately for me, sp gets LOTS of urchins and cannot get them to collide for a very long time. I think this was probably a bit of overkill, but I'm not 100% on that, and it was certainly unlucky. So I come out with a lead anyway, and I am just flirting with the edge of striking distance for a long time as the game fizzles.

Quote
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130819/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1376971290972.txt
So, he goes for rats and bishop. I go for basically money with a tribute, cellar, and a few pillages sprinkled in. Eventually a bishop of my own. I didn't think this rats/bishop thing was very good, and I frankly still don't, but it's a lot better than I had reckoned, and the board was very very weak, so it's not like there was big opportunity cost for it. He gets a couple provinces along with everything, and I am barely able to steal a 1-point victory on first-turn advantage before I get totally locked out.
My comments on the games:

Game 1: We pretty much did the same thing, you just managed to trash much faster than me.  I think later I had a few opportunities to trash that I passed up because I was worried that your deck was coming together so fast and I thought I should try to keep up.  Probably a mistake in retrospect.

Game 2: I thought about it some more and I think Feast opening was probably a little better than Quarry.  In general, Scheme should be better for Rebuild than Feast; I think your later Feast buys should have been Scheme (although Feast is pretty nice with Rebuild).  I trashed a Duchy into Province at one point, which maybe should have been Duchy into Duchy, but it ended up working out in my favor.

Game 3: I had no idea what the heck I was doing that game.  It was a strange board.  I felt like I played it very poorly, I'm not sure how it ended up so close.

Game 4: My plan was Rats+Bishop and then Remake Rats into Duchies near the end.  I never ended up getting Remake.  It's probably not a great plan in general, but it was a very weak board and it seemed stronger than anything else available.  Ended up being very close.
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PitrPicko

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2013, 06:40:58 pm »
+2

Thanks for games. It was really fun. All I have to say is seemed like battle between superior strategy (by you) and almost expert deck tracking and adapting (to) your strategy :D. But what really made it was some misplays by both of us, let's be honest :-/ Also maybe we both tend to make engines where BM could be better.

3 zporiri - pitrpicko 3

some interesting, drawn out games where end game strategy meant a lot.

37 zporiri - pitrpicko 34
An engine that really lacked +buy. we both opened silver/moneylender and i was able to buy labs on my first 3 turns. he went for more economy/less engine since he didnt have perfect shuffle luck as i did :P. my originally plan was to add in an explorer with the lab engine, but he started going for provinces so soon i felt like i didnt have time. he apprenticed a province to buy the last one, but only ended up with $7 (really unlucky), which killed him. i stonemasoned a gold for two duchies to keep up. neither one of us could get $8 for the last province, and eventually i 3 piled on labs (duchies+estates) to win. he probably shouldve won this one.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5070529651c34c5abec034ad.1377181483311.txt
This one really really messed my thinking. I knew exactly what is left in my deck and I took the chances to finish this off. And I'm pretty sure it was a good call. But some "Goko really hates me shuffle luck" played role here. Well I think this says it all:
PitrPicko   draws Gold, Province, Estate, Ironmonger, Silver, Province, Estate, Estate
PitrPicko   plays Ironmonger
PitrPicko   draws Province
Left in the deck after: Silver, Silver, Laboratory
I just needed anything from those 3 left cards... whatever. Tilt! Yay! :D
Also my stonemason buy with 5overpay in the T6 was lucky, otherwise I wouldn't stand a chance. But it was in my plan all the way. To trash gold for double duchy in the end game. In the game w/o +buy this makes huge difference.
7 zporiri - pitrpicko 11
village+conspirator+lab+margrave engine with doctor for trashing and possession for fun and soothsayer for cursing. i was expecting to slim down with doctor super fast and not have to worry about sooth sayer, but my first two doctor turns missed which killed me. my only chance from there was possession. he won this one, and rightly so.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5070529651c34c5abec034ad.1377183758712.txt
Here you got unlucky with doctor, but I'd totally name copper as first call. Always... This was only game I think I played well. At first I thought Poss will be too slow for this board, but you managed to buy it so fast. So I went same way and this is where I think deck tracking made difference. I was closely watching where all Possesions are and it could made this. But maybe just the fact, that I had more engine pieces or my golds from Soothsayer. Who knows...

5 zporiri - pitrpicko 48
treasure map game with steward for trashing. he opens plaza/steward which really helped him soothe out his turns, picking up another steward on turn 3. i opened double steward, but his opening seemed to be better. he got his treasure maps a couple turns before me, and without +buy i was done. also didnt help that i didnt connect my treasure maps in my 6 card deck :). i ignored provinces and went for vineyards because i had a super super super slim chance at winning that way as opposed to contesting him for provinces.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5070529651c34c5abec034ad.1377184444426.txt
I'm pretty sure that Village helped here. And Plaza was perfect for this. That coin token is really cool when you draw plaza+steward+3copper. Just discard copper, trash two and save coin token. It also allowed me to connect TM earlier. Plaza(Steward(+2cards), TM(TM)). To be absolutly honest I wasn't sure that I want TM, but when you bought it, it was very clear that this is superior strategy. You made that desicion for me.

50 zporiri - pitrpicko 43
the pivotal game 4. crazy action game with peddler, pawn, city, herald and cols+plats. i opened trader/pawn to trash some coppers, but couldnt resist trashing esates and buying more pawns on two turns (pawns to help get lots of peddlers), and those silvers hurt me a lot. i was barely able to pull off a double province turn on the last turn to win the the help of level 3 cities. fun game.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5070529651c34c5abec034ad.1377185513962.txt
Ohh I'm so sad... I was almost sure that you have only max. 21coins and you cannot buy double colony... :((( So I left 2 there, one for me, which would be enough. If I would count better I'd just buy province and I could really win this. That was silly mistake. And you took the chance. Well done.

zporiri 6 - pitrpicko 24
a tournament game with scrying pool, squire, and forager. i felt like my scrying pool strategy was superior to his strategy of loading up on tournament and foragers, but i misplayed this game very badly, i wish i could have this one back. if i had gotten another forager sooner i couldve trashed quicker and gotten provinces sooner. i really needed/wanted those followers. he got provinces before me, and that was all she wrote.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5070529651c34c5abec034ad.1377186346224.txt
Oh I so hate Scrying Pools... SO MUCH! Where I think you misplayed this was not trashing squires for SP. I didn't buy any gold which was probably very silly but in the end I was able to three-pile with princess help. Having 7 tournaments is a lot. They gave me money I needed for winning this. Also you totally ignored monument. I thought you're going for some SC,WV,Monument madness, but SP seemed too slow on this board. 15turns only.

zporiri wins by resignation (i got a phone call on my last turn, winning turn and was taking a while so pitrpicko resigned. sorry about that :) )
anotehr scrying pool game, this time with fishing village, nobles, and hamlets. death carts came into play late for extra economy. i bought two on one turn instead of double duchying at the end of the game (i needed a big turn to come back) and it turned out to be the right decision. scrying pool didnt mind the ruins, and i got my big turn at the end to win.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.5070529651c34c5abec034ad.1377187811935.txt

some of the more interesting games ive plaed in a while, particularly the end game strategy that came into play. thanks to pitrpicko for the great games and sorry about the phone call at the end!
OOhhh, I hate Scrying pools, have I already said that? This time you pulled it nicely and it was deserved win. I really didn't do anything. I tried to be very fast with FV/Nobles, but it didn't work out very well. This one was 100% yours.

Well I didn't want to resign. As I wrote in PM I'm very confused about "Goko leaving page pop-up". It is nice that some pop-up shows up, but I don't know what option let me stay in game.
"Are you sure you want to leave this page?"
(OK)-- closes page
(Cancel) -- closes page
(X) -- closes page...
What other options I have?!

Thanks for games. It was very nice playing you and good luck in next rounds. Meet you in finals. ;)
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jsh357

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2013, 07:01:52 pm »
+3

Games against Stealth Tomato

So I'm paired up for the second round in a row against somebody I consider a top player.  Hold me. 

Game 1:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377207715360.txt
This ends up being a Poor House almost mirror thing.  He gets the 5/2, opening Count for trashing and later Duchies.  I open Spice Merchant, hoping to win by having more components than him.  It turns out his plan/opening hand was a little better.  Not sure if my Shanty Towns were worth it or not, but well, I did manage to draw with them most of the time. 
Stealth Tomato wins, so I'm 0-1


Game 2:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377208309783.txt
There's potential for a few things here, but I opt for Monument BM-ish with Hoard.  Sadly my Hoard decides to not connect on hands where I need it, but with the chips I manage to come out ahead anyway.  Twice I buy Inn and my Monuments all go to the bottom of the shuffle.  I probably shouldn't have bothered with the Market at all.  His Taxman works all right to slow me down some, but not enough to stop my flow.  On one lol-worthy turn, he gets 3 Golds from Hoard long after it actually matters.
I win, 1-1

Game 3:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377208914271.txt
Big ol' Minion and Monuments game.  I open Talisman to speed up getting Monuments and Native Villages.  For the most part, I'm able to run the engine I wanted to here. (Monument followed by Minion flip)  I get an Upgrade to eliminate Copper; don't care about the Estates as much since my hands are just going to get flipped for Monument hands anyway.  He starts catching up, but I 3 pile for the win.
I win, 2-1

Game 4:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377209849484.txt
An Ambassador game with Moats, Fortress, Remake and Highway.  This game is just nutty as all-get-out.  Read the log, man.  In the end, I let him get the seventh Highway and that seals it as he can Remake for 2 Provinces per play.  If I had contested Highway better, maybe I'd have a chance, but it was slim after a point.  I saw his Outpost buy and played monkey see monkey do without thinking.
He wins, 2-2

Game 5:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377210670616.txt
The Knights battle of the century.  My Watchtower stops all but 1 Ruin, my Beggar is in hand right when it needs to be, and I end the game with the only Knight remaining: Dame Josephine.  Guess how many points I won by.  Bakers were the key card.  I got a bit worried because he was able to stockpile tokens better than I was (I'm still getting used to the things) but everything came around in the end, I guess.  You might say this game is very swingy, but there are also some interesting tactical decisions involved.
I win, 3-2

Game 6:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377211400683.txt
Tournament game, and maybe one of the best Band of Misfits boards I have ever played.  I get an early lead and choose Princess over Followers, which turned out to be a terrible idea.  He slows me down to the point I can't catch up, even when shooting for Dukes.  I didn't lose this by much, but it could've gone the other way and I regret getting Princess still. 
Stealth Tomato wins and we tie 3-3

So now I've tied two top players.  It's nice to not lose, but only getting ties doesn't get me anywhere either.  These games were mostly very fun and interesting, so thanks for playing, Stealth Tomato.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2013, 07:10:35 pm »
+2

I said I wasn't going to post a summary. I lied. I'm bitter, not about the draw (I may have deserved to lose) but about the absurd swinginess of every game we played. Therefore you don't want to read this summary. Also I'm apparently having a shitty day, which I know because my opponent apparently really enjoyed this match.

For all that I loved my Round 1 boards, I HATED that round's. I like my strategy in Game 1, and his in 2, but for the most part, every game but 2 was just dumb. That said, we made elementary endgame mistakes in 5 and 6 (me and then him), so either of us could have won this.

There is actually substantial skill in playing nearly all of these boards, but they're the sort of boards where substantial skill can give you at most perhaps a 60:40 edge over another very good player.

Game 1: ST over jsh
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377207715360.txt
I open 5/2 Count/Poor House on a board with Fishing Village, trash just about everything, and quietly walk away with a win. Drew slightly lucky, jsh had no chance whatsoever.

Game 2: jsh over ST
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377208309783.txt
I try something stupid with Hoard and get burned. He uses Monument well.

Game 3: jsh over ST
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377208914271.txt
This board is goofy. He uses Talisman to pick up multiple Monuments, I try using Nomad Camp to win the Minions. Despite this (and him opening Upgrade) and partially due to a stupid double-NV buy from me on Turn 3, we split the Minions and there's nothing resembling hope for me.

Game 4: ST over jsh
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377209849484.txt
One of us was going to want to throw things at a wall afterward. The shuffles pretty well hosed both of us repeatedly... but I ended up with 7 Highways in this Remake/Fortress/Outpost setup and picked up 7 Provinces in a double-turn. We both had some chances to do better, but good God, the shuffles on both sides were horrendous.

Game 5: jsh over ST
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377210670616.txt
His lone Watchtower collides with my Marauder repeatedly. I keep picking up lucky coin draws. I miscount the points, break PPR, and lose.

Game 6: ST over jsh
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377211400683.txt
Ultra-powerful Bands of Misfits thanks to Fortress, Smithy, Tournament, Cutpurse, and Border Village. My stuff connects slightly better and he accidentally depletes the piles.



EDIT: metacommentary!

Game 1:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377207715360.txt
This ends up being a Poor House almost mirror thing.  He gets the 5/2, opening Count for trashing and later Duchies.  I open Spice Merchant, hoping to win by having more components than him.  It turns out his plan/opening hand was a little better.  Not sure if my Shanty Towns were worth it or not, but well, I did manage to draw with them most of the time. 
Stealth Tomato wins, so I'm 0-1

I think you're underselling how vastly differently our decks developed. I also got somewhere between relatively and fantastically lucky with my draws late.

Game 2:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377208309783.txt
There's potential for a few things here, but I opt for Monument BM-ish with Hoard.  Sadly my Hoard decides to not connect on hands where I need it, but with the chips I manage to come out ahead anyway.  Twice I buy Inn and my Monuments all go to the bottom of the shuffle.  I probably shouldn't have bothered with the Market at all.  His Taxman works all right to slow me down some, but not enough to stop my flow.  On one lol-worthy turn, he gets 3 Golds from Hoard long after it actually matters.
I win, 1-1

I got too many Hoards (and bought too many Duchies). This game is also a good reminder that Taxman is bad even in situations where it seems to have synergy with the board.

Game 3:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377208914271.txt
Big ol' Minion and Monuments game.  I open Talisman to speed up getting Monuments and Native Villages.  For the most part, I'm able to run the engine I wanted to here. (Monument followed by Minion flip)  I get an Upgrade to eliminate Copper; don't care about the Estates as much since my hands are just going to get flipped for Monument hands anyway.  He starts catching up, but I 3 pile for the win.
I win, 2-1

I wasn't catching up here. You had this bagged up easily. I think your deck may have been slightly better, but my repeated $4 pickups and inability to draw NVs when I needed them changed this from a close game into a blowout.

Game 4:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377209849484.txt
An Ambassador game with Moats, Fortress, Remake and Highway.  This game is just nutty as all-get-out.  Read the log, man.  In the end, I let him get the seventh Highway and that seals it as he can Remake for 2 Provinces per play.  If I had contested Highway better, maybe I'd have a chance, but it was slim after a point.  I saw his Outpost buy and played monkey see monkey do without thinking.
He wins, 2-2

The 5/2 open was more painful for you here than you're letting on. Even though my Remake and Ambassador collided, having both of them was a huge help to me.

Game 5:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377210670616.txt
The Knights battle of the century.  My Watchtower stops all but 1 Ruin, my Beggar is in hand right when it needs to be, and I end the game with the only Knight remaining: Dame Josephine.  Guess how many points I won by.  Bakers were the key card.  I got a bit worried because he was able to stockpile tokens better than I was (I'm still getting used to the things) but everything came around in the end, I guess.  You might say this game is very swingy, but there are also some interesting tactical decisions involved.
I win, 3-2

This was actually an interesting game. You got lucky with the Ruins, I got lucky with the Forge, then I committed a cardinal sin and broke PPR because I lost the count.

Game 6:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.505de22f0cf2ef979299a5d8.1377211400683.txt
Tournament game, and maybe one of the best Band of Misfits boards I have ever played.  I get an early lead and choose Princess over Followers, which turned out to be a terrible idea.  He slows me down to the point I can't catch up, even when shooting for Dukes.  I didn't lose this by much, but it could've gone the other way and I regret getting Princess still. 
Stealth Tomato wins and we tie 3-3

I disagree with almost everything here, haha. BoM is so overpowered here that it's entirely uninteresting, and Princess was absolutely the correct pickup. I'd argue you didn't lose because of Followers vs. Princess, you lost because your draws didn't line up as well as mine close to the end.


Man, what happened to all the easy games in these tournaments? I almost miss those.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 07:27:19 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2013, 07:16:51 pm »
+2

So, the Robz888-AdamH match:
Game 1: The presence of baker really makes haggler the clear choice here - it gives you very very nice options on 5 and 6. Adam's 2nd merchant ship strikes me as really ungood.

Game 2: Stonemasoning treasure mapped golds into duchy/duke seems really interesting. But while it's the very interesting thing I love to see as an idea, I don't think it actually works very well... and certainly not here. So. The other thing is, is this really an engine board? I mean, I know, it's my first thought, too, but... Village/smithy is not really where engines want to be, stonemason as the only trashing is bad, pawn is your plus buy, stonemason is less effective than normal here, I think? And duke is not so bad - especially as there's a reasonable chance to snap back for 3 piles in a lot of cases. So I actually wonder if duke slog isn't just better, and maybe open SM-pawn-pawn in the hopes of SMing your estates? This should be good for a slog, really good, if it works, though it of course well may not. Hmm, interesting board.

Game 3: Well, Adam just plays badly here. I was really interested in whether Butcher+Hunting Party would beat cultist (eh probably not, but...), until I realized city was around and makes cultist just way the way to go here. Right? Anyway, Adam for some reason thinks he just wants wishing wells and trade routes, and... well he waits forever to get any form of income beyond his original 7 coppers, which means it is really going to take him forever to get to 5 again. And this is borne out. Really needed an early silver or two. I also don't think WW is very good here, as you will just have so much stuff lying around, though hey, if you want to go big actions later, maybe after 1 or 2 silvers it's ok. It seems like Rob plays a bit unfocused after he gets his dominating advantage, but ok, it doesn't really matter, he wasn't in any danger of losing.

Titandrake

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2013, 08:04:22 pm »
+3

Alright, going to keep this short since I have a tendency to ramble.

Game 1: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.506b5cfc0cf21d2313f966fe.1377209556907.txt
No villages, but there is Ironworks-Great Hall and Menagerie. I go into it thinking it's a Witch-BM game, lose to a part-rush part-engine deck. Matching on Provinces and handing out more Curses doesn't help when Curses is a free empty pile and you're immediately down 4 VP from Great Halls. Fun game though, Develop does nice work here.

Game 2: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.506b5cfc0cf21d2313f966fe.1377210586061.txt
Cultist, Upgrade, Border Village, King's Court, no +Buy. Game seems fast, so I open Silver/Conspirator to make sure I get an early $5.  Instead I get $6 turns 4 and 5, which is even better. dudeabides tries for University, but Potion goes to turn 5, and we both agree it's a bit too slow here. Cultist snowball gets going and hits hard.

Game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.506b5cfc0cf21d2313f966fe.1377211829877.txt
Originally, I wanted to do some odd Madman-Woodcutter engine. Some point in the first couple of turns, I decided that Courtyard-Counterfeit-BM with Bishop is probably a lot better than that. I get a nice turn 4, where I manage to trash both dead Shelters and pick up my Courtyard. dudeabides tries to make an Explorer-Bishop-Madman deck that never needs to buy anything, and therefore never runs out of Madmen. It didn't work fast enough here, but I feel like it should if the shuffles are even.

Game 4: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.506b5cfc0cf21d2313f966fe.1377213995936.txt
Definitely the hardest game here. I go for a Jack based engine, using Lookout, Squire, and Tribute for +Actions. I don't pick up enough Jacks to make the draws consistent, but because Jack is Jack, well...

dudeabides goes for Squires and Catacombs, intending to go for Fairgrounds. In the middle of the game, I realize that Ruins help Fairgrounds a lot, and end up having to track which Ruins I have and which I don't, in case I want to buy any. In the end, dudeabides has 5 Fairgrounds worth 8 VP, but forgets to use coin tokens which would have given a 6th. I end on Provinces and win because of it.

They were all interesting games, and we actually had diverging strategies in all the games (except for arguably game 2.) Thanks to dudeabides for the games, and sorry the last game ended that way :/
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 08:08:10 pm by Titandrake »
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AHoppy

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2013, 11:55:40 pm »
+1

SirSlugma 3.5 - AHoppy 0.5

Game 1: SirSlugma 40 - AHoppy 21
Transmute, Courtyard, Crossroads, Duchess, Fishing Village, Watchtower, JackOfAllTrades, Royal Seal, Vault, Possession
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.51534171e4b0a260b59991f4.1377220203985.txt
We both get 5/2 opens, and I, not wanting to give up the chance to buy a nice shiny 5 T1 go Vault-courtyard BM (I kinda want to do a draw-to-X engine, but realize that doesn't really work with FV too well) so my watchtower and FV buys aren't good.  Meanwhile, his courtyard-jack BM works much better.  Not much to see here, I just need to stop trying to build engines on every board and go half in and half BM.  Doesn't work for me

Game 2: AHoppy 27 - SirSlugma 27
Farming Village, Horse Traders, Pirate Ship, Plaza, Worker's Village, Butcher, Highway, Mountebank, Fairgrounds, King's Court
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.51534171e4b0a260b59991f4.1377221319365.txt
I see workers village and highway and think that with WV for buy and highways I should be able to cobble together a deck with a bunch of different components for fairgrounds along with mountebanks early to slow him down.  Somehow though, even though I win highway split 7-3 and curses 3-7, he still has the buying power to get a province over my duchy.  Also, stupidly I bought a pirate ship T13 thinking to get more variety.  But I think it just hurt me.  A village would have been better and I could have picked up the infinitely more useful butcher later.  In the end though, I could have lost because SirSlugma could have bought an estate.  I need to work on my fairgrounds games...

Game 3: AHoppy 31 - SirSlugma 36
Fool's Gold, Chancellor, Lookout, Steward, Feodum, Taxman, Highway, Upgrade, Hoard, King's Court
I was happy with the 5/2 here, but it didn't work out for me.  I didn't go highway because of the lack of +buy.  In a desperate last-ditch effort I had to upgrade my KC, hoping to be able to buy the last province later, but he beat me to it by 1 turn...

Game 4: SirSlugma 52 - AHoppy 44
Poor House, Herbalist, Woodcutter, Coppersmith, Noble Brigand, Nomad Camp, Spy, Contraband, Mandarin, Goons
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130822/log.51534171e4b0a260b59991f4.1377222854017.txt
This game was just frustrating... all his Noble Brigands kept killing my goons and another 5-2 open that kinda sucked... I'm not really sure what I should have done differently here.  Any advice is quite welcome

Thanks for the games SirSlugma and good luck in the rest of the tournament!

zporiri

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2013, 03:55:22 pm »
0

this is mostly a question for Kirian, but i'd love if we could see the standings somewhere after each round (how many points each player has). perhaps you could add it to the google doc if it isn't too big of a hassle? :) if not, no worries
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2013, 04:28:49 pm »
+2

this is mostly a question for Kirian, but i'd love if we could see the standings somewhere after each round (how many points each player has). perhaps you could add it to the google doc if it isn't too big of a hassle? :) if not, no worries

The "Round 1 Rankings" tab is what you're looking for.  It has the total "ordering" score, which includes the Solkoff score etc, but I've updated it to have the points (which is the ordering column divided by 1000000.)
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ragingduckd

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2013, 12:43:37 am »
+2

Mallard Match (ragingduckd vs Psyduck) -- ragingduckd wins 3-1

Game 1:Kingdomragingduckd - 1,Psyduck - 0
Apothecary, Hermit, and Vault make me pass on Mountebank here despite my 5/2 start. I open Vault/- while Psyduck goes Potion/Hermit, picking up a pile of Upgrades and Mountebanks with University while I slog away with Vaults, Hermits and a pile of green. Psyduck gets a very clean deck with a lot of Gold and strong actions, but not quickly enough to overcome my VP lead.
 
Game 2:Kingdomragingduckd - 2,Psyduck - 0
Another Mountebank-trap board. The Baker token gives us flexibility and I open Caravan/Remodel to Psyduck's Lighthouse/Mountebank. Only one MB attack ends up getting through and I end up with most of the Caravans/Bakers. After picking up Outpost I'm almost playing two turns to Psyduck's one and win comfortably.
 
Game 3:Kingdomragingduckd - 2,Psyduck - 1
An Ambassador game with Baker. I make my typical Ambassador mistake, picking up a Poor House and using it to win the Baker split instead of thinning aggressively. Soon Psyduck has far the slimmer deck and his four Bakers are doing more than my six. He picks up a Haggler, getting ready for some robust greening and I gamble on a Gold instead, hoping that some lucky turn with Poor House, Pawn, and Baker tokens will let me sneak the win. I come closer than I had expected given his mid-game lead, but I don't connect and Psyduck's extra Haggler Gold end up giving him the win he deserves.

We'd appreciate some comments on our game and on this kingdom. We discussed it afterwards and neither of us was very confident in how we felt it should have been played. Between Ambassador and coin tokens, we both had a lot of difficult decisions to make.
 
Game 4:Kingdomragingduckd - 3,Psyduck - 1
I think we both played this one very poorly. There were several cantrips and reasonable engine parts on a board with Tournament and Horn of Plenty. I err first in buying a HoP just because I draw $5 and Psyduck follows suit, spending his $6 hands on Border Village with HoP or Masquerade and similar. Psyduck builds a slimmer engine with more HoPs but never quite gets to 8 uniques. I get to $8 to T10 and end up picking up most of the good prizes for a modest win.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 12:46:00 am by ragingduckd »
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2013, 12:51:39 am »
+1

Mallard match. Love it.
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SCSN

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2013, 05:40:57 am »
+4

Game 3:Kingdomragingduckd - 2,Psyduck - 1
An Ambassador game with Baker. I make my typical Ambassador mistake, picking up a Poor House and using it to win the Baker split instead of thinning aggressively. Soon Psyduck has far the slimmer deck and his four Bakers are doing more than my six. He picks up a Haggler, getting ready for some robust greening and I gamble on a Gold instead, hoping that some lucky turn with Poor House, Pawn, and Baker tokens will let me sneak the win. I come closer than I had expected given his mid-game lead, but I don't connect and Psyduck's extra Haggler Gold end up giving him the win he deserves.

We'd appreciate some comments on our game and on this kingdom. We discussed it afterwards and neither of us was very confident in how we felt it should have been played. Between Ambassador and coin tokens, we both had a lot of difficult decisions to make.

Open Haggler/Silver and ignore Ambassador entirely. Without villages and draw, Ambassador slows you down more than it does an opponent who goes for BM with Haggler and Baker for support (getting a gold + Baker from Haggler should be pretty sweet).
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 05:42:10 am by SheCantSayNo »
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ragingduckd

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2013, 08:27:27 am »
0

Game 3:Kingdomragingduckd - 2,Psyduck - 1
An Ambassador game with Baker. I make my typical Ambassador mistake, picking up a Poor House and using it to win the Baker split instead of thinning aggressively. Soon Psyduck has far the slimmer deck and his four Bakers are doing more than my six. He picks up a Haggler, getting ready for some robust greening and I gamble on a Gold instead, hoping that some lucky turn with Poor House, Pawn, and Baker tokens will let me sneak the win. I come closer than I had expected given his mid-game lead, but I don't connect and Psyduck's extra Haggler Gold end up giving him the win he deserves.

We'd appreciate some comments on our game and on this kingdom. We discussed it afterwards and neither of us was very confident in how we felt it should have been played. Between Ambassador and coin tokens, we both had a lot of difficult decisions to make.

Open Haggler/Silver and ignore Ambassador entirely. Without villages and draw, Ambassador slows you down more than it does an opponent who goes for BM with Haggler and Baker for support (getting a gold + Baker from Haggler should be pretty sweet).

Dammit. I kinda figured you'd say that. I should just ask myslf what Ambassador strategy SCSN could name to make me feel dumbest and then do that. :P

Okay. Explain it to me like I'm five. I'm obviously Ambassadorially-challenged.

1. When do I ignore Ambassador?
2. When do I take Ambassador and do anything other than just thin at top speed?
3. When do I open double-Ambassador?
4. When, if ever, do I ignore Lookout in favor of Ambassador?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 08:36:34 am by ragingduckd »
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Polk5440

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2013, 08:31:11 am »
0

Polk5440 ties Beyond Awesome 3-3

Game1:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130823/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1377303231445.txt
Polk wins 40-3

I'd love to say this win was because of some great skill I had, but it just wasn't. I made an error purchasing a Taxman on turn 5 (I didn't even play it for the first time until turn 16). Caravan would have been better. I got the first Goons and ended up with a couple more Caravans and a Gold. Maybe that made the difference, but BA had more Universities, more Jesters, one more Oracle, and four more Torturers. We both had 3 Festivals, 4 Golems, and a Silver.

It came down to this: my deck triggered first. I emptied the Curse pile and won.

Game 2:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130823/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1377303793956.txt
BA wins 42-35

I made the biggest mistake of the series in this game: I purchased a second Sea Hag rather than a Monument.

I thought the second Sea Hag would help me win the split then I could pick up a Monument later and Trading Post the Sea Hags away. We split the Curses anyway, I never got a chance to Trading Post a Sea Hag late, and I never picked up a Monument. Those few Monument points gave BA control over the endgame, and he won. I really feel like had I made the right call with Monument, this would have won me the game and the series (especially since I had great luck early, being able to Trading Post away two Estates).

Game 3:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130823/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1377304501054.txt
Polk wins 37-29

We both start Sea Hag-Silver. He catches a great break early flipping my Sea Hag with his.

To catch up, I try something pretty high variance and of dubious quality: (again) I get a second Sea Hag, lots of Counts, a Haggler, and a Graverobber. I win the curse split, and get a couple good Count trashes, but he's has 7 Gold to my 2 Gold. Somehow I am able to come back and win this.

Game 4:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130823/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1377305326324.txt
BA wins 70-48

An attrocious 5-2 opening for me. I try Harvest-Embargo and Embargo the Peddlers. He goes double Trade Route, cleans out his deck, and while our decks looked fairly similar in the end and the points were close at one point, I never really put any pressure on him.

Game 5:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130823/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1377306493536.txt
BA wins 19-3

We both get a bit sidetracked with Knights (though he does hit one of my Talisman early), and while we play similar strategies, his deck just comes together better. I see the writing on the wall with piles running out, but without buying some key cards I am toast, anyway. He empties piles and wins.

Game 6:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130823/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1377307410137.txt
Polk wins 66-47

Here 5-2 is okay -- I open Ghost Ship-nothing to his Taxman-Silver. In a Colony game Taxman actually helped quite a bit. We ended up doing the same thing -- Ghost Ship, Embassy, Bazaar, Taxman. I win the Bazaar split giving my deck more power and land a great Taxman Gold->Platinum which makes him discard a Gold late to win.

I spent a long time thinking about whether to just go Embassy-big money here at the very start of the game. Then I thought about going Ghost Ship money. Given the game was 30 turns, I think we could have done better. Luckily BA didn't try it, and had two Taxmen rather than some more draw using up his precious actions.

------

Thanks for the great games, BA. I think we both played pretty well and the tie is well-deserved. Good luck in future rounds!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2013, 08:33:53 am »
0

Game 3:Kingdomragingduckd - 2,Psyduck - 1
An Ambassador game with Baker. I make my typical Ambassador mistake, picking up a Poor House and using it to win the Baker split instead of thinning aggressively. Soon Psyduck has far the slimmer deck and his four Bakers are doing more than my six. He picks up a Haggler, getting ready for some robust greening and I gamble on a Gold instead, hoping that some lucky turn with Poor House, Pawn, and Baker tokens will let me sneak the win. I come closer than I had expected given his mid-game lead, but I don't connect and Psyduck's extra Haggler Gold end up giving him the win he deserves.

We'd appreciate some comments on our game and on this kingdom. We discussed it afterwards and neither of us was very confident in how we felt it should have been played. Between Ambassador and coin tokens, we both had a lot of difficult decisions to make.

Open Haggler/Silver and ignore Ambassador entirely. Without villages and draw, Ambassador slows you down more than it does an opponent who goes for BM with Haggler and Baker for support (getting a gold + Baker from Haggler should be pretty sweet).
I don't think this (no villages/draw, no ambassador) is always correct. But as a general rule of thumb, it's not bad, and here I agree with you.

(The biggest clear exception is if you are going for a deck with tons of great cantrips, but there are other cases with weak colony boards and such that it's also the play to get one - and only one - amb anyway).

StrongRhino

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2013, 11:57:10 am »
+1

Quote
I made the biggest mistake of the series in this game: I purchased a second Sea Hag rather than a Monument.
Well, after all, monument is just a sea hag that doesn't junk or discard the top card of their deck but gives you money.
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Psyduck

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2013, 01:11:09 pm »
+2

Mallard Match (ragingduckd vs Psyduck)

Haha, that was also my thought when I saw the spreadsheet. :)


Game 1:Kingdomragingduckd - 1,Psyduck - 0
Apothecary, Hermit, and Vault make me pass on Mountebank here despite my 5/2 start. I open Vault/- while Psyduck goes Potion/Hermit, picking up a pile of Upgrades and Mountebanks with University while I slog away with Vaults, Hermits and a pile of green. Psyduck gets a very clean deck with a lot of Gold and strong actions, but not quickly enough to overcome my VP lead.

For me this was the most difficult game. So many strong cards and University zu gain them. I still don't know how to play this correctly. Using Vault to gain plenty of green cards and then Silk Roads obviously worked decently. It's very hard to see when Mountebank should be ignored.


Game 2:Kingdomragingduckd - 2,Psyduck - 0
Another Mountebank-trap board. The Baker token gives us flexibility and I open Caravan/Remodel to Psyduck's Lighthouse/Mountebank. Only one MB attack ends up getting through and I end up with most of the Caravans/Bakers. After picking up Outpost I'm almost playing two turns to Psyduck's one and win comfortably.

Not happy at all how I approached this one. Seemed like Mountebank was important again, but as ragingduckd proved it wasn't that powerful here.
I also completely missed Caravan/Outpost. When I finally realized it I was already way behind.


Game 3:Kingdomragingduckd - 2,Psyduck - 1
An Ambassador game with Baker. I make my typical Ambassador mistake, picking up a Poor House and using it to win the Baker split instead of thinning aggressively. Soon Psyduck has far the slimmer deck and his four Bakers are doing more than my six. He picks up a Haggler, getting ready for some robust greening and I gamble on a Gold instead, hoping that some lucky turn with Poor House, Pawn, and Baker tokens will let me sneak the win. I come closer than I had expected given his mid-game lead, but I don't connect and Psyduck's extra Haggler Gold end up giving him the win he deserves.

We'd appreciate some comments on our game and on this kingdom. We discussed it afterwards and neither of us was very confident in how we felt it should have been played. Between Ambassador and coin tokens, we both had a lot of difficult decisions to make.

Open Haggler/Silver and ignore Ambassador entirely. Without villages and draw, Ambassador slows you down more than it does an opponent who goes for BM with Haggler and Baker for support (getting a gold + Baker from Haggler should be pretty sweet).
I don't think this (no villages/draw, no ambassador) is always correct. But as a general rule of thumb, it's not bad, and here I agree with you.

(The biggest clear exception is if you are going for a deck with tons of great cantrips, but there are other cases with weak colony boards and such that it's also the play to get one - and only one - amb anyway).

Okay, Ambassador is an engine card, I was aware of that. But this board featured no excellent BM cards, just Haggler. Doesn't ignoring Amb mean to be heavily junked with curses, and - possibly - Poor Houses? Is that just too slow with only one Amb play/turn?


 
Game 4:Kingdomragingduckd - 3,Psyduck - 1
I think we both played this one very poorly. There were several cantrips and reasonable engine parts on a board with Tournament and Horn of Plenty. I err first in buying a HoP just because I draw $5 and Psyduck follows suit, spending his $6 hands on Border Village with HoP or Masquerade and similar. Psyduck builds a slimmer engine with more HoPs but never quite gets to 8 uniques. I get to $8 to T10 and end up picking up most of the good prizes for a modest win.

Fully agreed. Our initial goal was to get to $8 as soon as possible, but we both got distracted by other stuff.

Anyway, thanks for the fun games ragingduckd, and good luck for the next tournament rounds.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2013, 02:58:27 pm »
+2

Mic Qsenoch wins 3-1 over blueblimp


Game 1: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130824/log.5066a4d70cf20e086dc89e71.1377366809642.txt
Transmute, Chapel, Crossroads, Fool's Gold, Swindler, Farming Village, Contraband, Explorer, Mint, Harem

I asked blueblimp before my opening how badly Swindler would wreck Mint/FG, and he responded cryptically with "that's the question." It turns out the answer was "pretty badly". I get good Mint/FG collisions in my first reshuffles. I probably need to get a Chapel at some point, but I'm not sure when. Soon I am swimming in green junk. Not a good strategy choice by me, and my opponent wins with a Chapeled down Swindler/BM deck. Oh and there are Colonies, which makes my thing probably even worse.

Game 2: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130824/log.5066a4d70cf20e086dc89e71.1377367447114.txt
Beggar, Chapel, Black Market, Trade Route, Tunnel, Cutpurse, Silk Road, Counting House, Inn, Treasury, Witch
Another Colony game, where my opponent goes Alt-VP all the way with Silk Road/Beggar, eventually clearing Tunnels as well. I Chapel down and build Treasuries/Platina for a while because I know I'll have to piledrive the Colonies. My early draws aren't fantastic, but I don't play it perfectly either. The games ends very close, but I really think the Colony player should have a straightforward win here. I add Inn/Witch late in the game, it's possible I needed them much sooner (though I didn't want to set up an easy 3-pile). Black Market is also a possibility, it has a few nice cards, but I'm not sure it's worth a terminal slot to go fishing for goodies. I win by a slim margin.


Game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130824/log.5066a4d70cf20e086dc89e71.1377368021233.txt
Urchin, Alchemist, Baron, Ironworks, Quarry, Thief, Apprentice, Mandarin, Mystic, Altar
I am not pleased with 5/2 on this board at all, but I go ahead and open Apprentice/-, blueblimp goes Ironworks/Urchin. I don't love Urchin or Mercenary here because Alchemist should counter them nicely. If you collide Urchins really soon it might be worth it, but that isn't the case for my opponent in this game. Our engines aren't very impressive here, I want to blame my draws but it's more likely I made some stupid purchases or Apprentice plays. I win this by getting an early lead and then aggressively trashing Province/Golds to end the game before my opponent can catch up. 18 turns to 4 Provinces looks so slow for what was available on the board though.

Game 4: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130824/log.5066a4d70cf20e086dc89e71.1377368585338.txt
Courtyard, Squire, Lookout, Market Square, Conspirator, Nomad Camp, Spy, Duke, Royal Seal, Forge
My third game to get 5/2. The kingdom offers a two paths in my mind: Duchy/Duke with Squires/Nomad Camps or Provinces with big Conspirator engine. I go for the Duchy/Duke plan. My opponent opens Lookout/Market Square with the goal of getting a few Golds and contesting Duchies. I win the Duchy split 5/3 and my opponent hasn't been able to gain much gold, and his deck is now flooded with Copper. This makes a Conspirator chain impossible, so he doesn't have much hope of catching up on Provinces. He resigns before the piles can run out.

I really wanted to try the Conspirator engine, but 5/2 was no good for it. I'm interested in how fast that deck can clear Provinces. You would want to open Lookout/Conspirator I think. Get a second Lookout and a few Market Squares. Never gain Gold with Market Square and then lots of Spies/Market Squares/Conspirator until you can at least double Province.

Thanks for the match blueblimp!
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yed

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2013, 06:11:41 pm »
0

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130824/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1377362953501.txt
Cellar, Moat, Forager, Familiar, Feast, Treasure Map, Rogue, Saboteur, Vault, Goons
Mail-mi missed Familiar and that decided the match.
I'm curious if it would be a good idea to skip Familiars and go for a lot of trashing from Foragers from the start.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130824/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1377379553168.txt
Herbalist, Urchin, Familiar, Philosopher's Stone, Farming Village, Procession, Sea Hag, Apprentice, Ghost Ship, Market
Mirror match. It felt like I'm behind the whole game, but I was better trashed and that probably helped. Still shuffle luck decided this too.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130824/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1377380850896.txt
Pearl Diver, Fishing Village, Loan, Masquerade, Bishop, Coppersmith, Jester, Market, Pillage, Altar
I decided to delay Bishop buy and build engine with FV, Masqarade and a lot of Markets. It worked quite well.
My Jester was lucky to hit mail-mi's green surprisingly often.

yed 3
mail-mi 0

Thank you mail-mi for the games. I was lucky in all of them, sorry for that. Good luck in next rounds.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 06:13:58 pm by yed »
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mail-mi

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2013, 06:26:20 pm »
0

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130824/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1377362953501.txt
Cellar, Moat, Forager, Familiar, Feast, Treasure Map, Rogue, Saboteur, Vault, Goons
Mail-mi missed Familiar and that decided the match.
I'm curious if it would be a good idea to skip Familiars and go for a lot of trashing from Foragers from the start.
Oh man. Getting 2p in the second shuffle, then buying a familiar, then having it miss the reshuffle all killed me.

Quote
yed 3
mail-mi 0

Thank you mail-mi for the games. I was lucky in all of them, sorry for that. Good luck in next rounds.
It was fun!
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I currently imagine mail-mi wearing a dark trenchcoat and a bowler hat, hunched over a bit, toothpick in his mouth, holding a gun in his pocket.  One bead of sweat trickling down his nose.

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florrat

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2013, 09:44:56 pm »
+2

jaybeez - florrat: 3-3


florrat wins 8-6: Scheme, Bureaucrat, Quarry, Remake, Wandering Minstrel, Catacombs, Festival, Journeyman, Knights, Stables
A knight war. I tried to trash my deck down with remake, while jaybeez skipped remake, to make (almost) sure his stables always worked and to make my knight a less effective. I won the knight war which led to a win.

jaybeez wins 27-22: Vagrant, Sage, Butcher, Counting House, Graverobber, Highway, Minion, Mountebank, Rabble, Witch
We both opened 2/5 and we both went Curser Big Money with Butcher support. The main difference was that my initial curser was Mountebank and his curser was Witch. It was a really close match.

jaybeez wins 40-39: Chapel, Ironmonger, Scout, Thief, Throne Room, Trader, Library, Soothsayer, Possession, Forge
I basically went Chapel big money with 1 library, while jaybeez went for Possession. After the game we both agreed that going Possession was a mistake, but he still managed to win the game with it.

florrat wins 39-31: Menagerie, Feast, Scout, Smithy, Merchant Ship, Saboteur, Stables, Treasury, Hoard, Hunting Grounds
I went Smithy big money, jaybeez went Stables big money. Smithy big money is definitely better, but jaybeez 5/2 opening made that less attractive, but probably he still had to open Merchant Ship/- or Smithy/-

florrat wins 49-36: Stonemason, Ambassador, Fishing Village, Smugglers, Familiar, Journeyman, Library, Pillage, Saboteur, Altar
An Ambassador war with FV support. I won the amb war (being help a lot by his terminal collision on T3), but jaybeez won the FV-split (7-3), but it turned out that winning the amb-war was more important.

jaybeez wins 42-15: Scrying Pool, Masquerade, Armory, Conspirator, Farming Village, Noble Brigand, Walled Village, Horn of Plenty, Journeyman, Grand Market
We both went Masquerade - Scrying Pool. I made some mistakes early (my third masquerade should have been silver), and jaybeez' early HoP was very good picking up extra engine pieces. He was a few turns ahead building up his engine, which was too much to overcome.

EDIT: I just realized that in ALL six game the second player won.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 09:47:31 pm by florrat »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2013, 12:55:23 am »
+1

Game 3:Kingdomragingduckd - 2,Psyduck - 1
An Ambassador game with Baker. I make my typical Ambassador mistake, picking up a Poor House and using it to win the Baker split instead of thinning aggressively. Soon Psyduck has far the slimmer deck and his four Bakers are doing more than my six. He picks up a Haggler, getting ready for some robust greening and I gamble on a Gold instead, hoping that some lucky turn with Poor House, Pawn, and Baker tokens will let me sneak the win. I come closer than I had expected given his mid-game lead, but I don't connect and Psyduck's extra Haggler Gold end up giving him the win he deserves.

We'd appreciate some comments on our game and on this kingdom. We discussed it afterwards and neither of us was very confident in how we felt it should have been played. Between Ambassador and coin tokens, we both had a lot of difficult decisions to make.

Open Haggler/Silver and ignore Ambassador entirely. Without villages and draw, Ambassador slows you down more than it does an opponent who goes for BM with Haggler and Baker for support (getting a gold + Baker from Haggler should be pretty sweet).

Dammit. I kinda figured you'd say that. I should just ask myslf what Ambassador strategy SCSN could name to make me feel dumbest and then do that. :P

Okay. Explain it to me like I'm five. I'm obviously Ambassadorially-challenged.

1. When do I ignore Ambassador?
2. When do I take Ambassador and do anything other than just thin at top speed?
3. When do I open double-Ambassador?
4. When, if ever, do I ignore Lookout in favor of Ambassador?

There are a few ways you can go about playing boards with Ambassador, and it's basically like a gradient, so it's hard to give any steadfast rules.

If you can build a full-drawing engine, you want 2 Ambassadors early (either open double Amb or get a second one on the next shuffle) to trim down to set up the engine, and you can use the Ambassadors to continue to attack all game.

If you lack the +actions to keep playing Ambassadors you may want 1 (or even 2, returning one later, to speed up the trashing) as trashing to set up some lesser engine.

If you're playing something that's barely an engine or not even really an engine at all, you still might want an Ambassador as light trashing if the game figures to go long enough for the early "dead" turns to be worth it. (This is like where you might even prefer Lookout.)

If there's something very fast that's resilient enough to taking on a few extra cards, you can skip it entirely.
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jaybeez

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2013, 03:17:09 am »
+2

jaybeez - florrat: 3-3

florrat wins 8-6: Scheme, Bureaucrat, Quarry, Remake, Wandering Minstrel, Catacombs, Festival, Journeyman, Knights, Stables
A knight war. I tried to trash my deck down with remake, while jaybeez skipped remake, to make (almost) sure his stables always worked and to make my knight a less effective. I won the knight war which led to a win.
I still have trouble figuring out when to go for Knights at all, and if you do how aggressively.  I think it was losing the Knights split more than ignoring Remake that did me in, but I'm not sure.  I did not play well here.

Quote
jaybeez wins 27-22: Vagrant, Sage, Butcher, Counting House, Graverobber, Highway, Minion, Mountebank, Rabble, Witch
We both opened 2/5 and we both went Curser Big Money with Butcher support. The main difference was that my initial curser was Mountebank and his curser was Witch. It was a really close match.
I think Witch is better head-to-head with Mountebank, and maybe I'm right because I win the Curse split 6-4.  Butcher is key here (Cursers into Duchies, Curses into Estates) and I go for a second one earlier than my opponent and it pays dividends.  My Sages do some good but set up a bad reshuffle at one point and don't do much later in the game, Silvers might have been better.

Quote
jaybeez wins 40-39: Chapel, Ironmonger, Scout, Thief, Throne Room, Trader, Library, Soothsayer, Possession, Forge
I basically went Chapel big money with 1 library, while jaybeez went for Possession. After the game we both agreed that going Possession was a mistake, but he still managed to win the game with it.
I had planned to go for a super-slim deck with Possessions, Throne Rooms, and Ironmongers for lots of multi-Possession turns and I somehow lost track of that.  I don't think I played well and I'm a little surprised I won.  Was it luck?

Quote
florrat wins 39-31: Menagerie, Feast, Scout, Smithy, Merchant Ship, Saboteur, Stables, Treasury, Hoard, Hunting Grounds
I went Smithy big money, jaybeez went Stables big money. Smithy big money is definitely better, but jaybeez 5/2 opening made that less attractive, but probably he still had to open Merchant Ship/- or Smithy/-
Yeah, I'm really into Stables these days.  I think it was a mistake to open with, but Smithy/Silver is just much better here than anything you can do with 5/2.  I don't think my strategy was awful but it wasn't great either.

Quote
florrat wins 49-36: Stonemason, Ambassador, Fishing Village, Smugglers, Familiar, Journeyman, Library, Pillage, Saboteur, Altar
An Ambassador war with FV support. I won the amb war (being help a lot by his terminal collision on T3), but jaybeez won the FV-split (7-3), but it turned out that winning the amb-war was more important.
My Ambassadors collide before the second reshuffle, his don't.  I also have some turns where I return fewer Coppers than I could in order to buy Fishing Villages.  That's how I win that split but I get even further behind with the Ambs.  I thought it would be more important to have lots of FVs to enable big draw with Libraries, but the power of Ambassador is not to be taken lightly.

Quote
jaybeez wins 42-15: Scrying Pool, Masquerade, Armory, Conspirator, Farming Village, Noble Brigand, Walled Village, Horn of Plenty, Journeyman, Grand Market
We both went Masquerade - Scrying Pool. I made some mistakes early (my third masquerade should have been silver), and jaybeez' early HoP was very good picking up extra engine pieces. He was a few turns ahead building up his engine, which was too much to overcome.
I have to say this was my most satisfying win in weeks--facing a loss for the round I win in dominant fashion with one of my favorite deck types, a totally over-the-top Scrying Pool engine.  I'm particularly proud of my decision to go with HoP which worked out beautifully.  Typically you want to minimize the number of Treasures in a SP deck, but I knew that HoP would be good because it'd almost always get at least a $4, which I needed, but also it wouldn't be too hard to grab GMs with it--and I managed to do that on three consecutive turns, T9-T11.  At that point my deck starts to snowball pretty quickly, I pour on the GMs with some Conspirators on the side.  I might have overbuilt a little bit but I was just so happy to have forced a draw that I allowed myself this pleasure.

Quote
EDIT: I just realized that in ALL six game the second player won.
I hadn't noticed that.  Very weird.  But whatever, thank you florrat for the exciting match.
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zaubererer

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2013, 12:42:01 pm »
0

Hi, i need help on how to find logs, because i forgot to grab them. Any help would be really appreciated.
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nopawnsintended

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2013, 12:44:25 pm »
+1

Quote
I made the biggest mistake of the series in this game: I purchased a second Sea Hag rather than a Monument.
Well, after all, monument is just a sea hag that doesn't junk or discard the top card of their deck but gives you money.

That's what I e-mailed Polk after he told me about the match.
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Mr Anderson

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2013, 01:42:36 pm »
+2

Hi, i need help on how to find logs, because i forgot to grab them. Any help would be really appreciated.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/
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zaubererer

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2013, 03:35:47 pm »
0

thx
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2013, 05:30:05 pm »
+1

Kirian d. Bekse 3-1
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1377460715279.txt

Game 1:  Familiar board.  My opponent opens with Upgrade on 5/2, which, you know, isn't a bad play IMO, but then draws 2/5 on T3 and T4, and doesn't take the Potion with $5.  I think a second Upgrade at that point might actually have made this closer, but my Familiars and then Alchemists turn the game into a bit of a blowout.  Bekse resigns when I get a Gold and a Platinum.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1377461403558.txt

Border Village, Governor, Wharf.  Wharf dominates, but notably, Governor on a BV = Province, which clinches the game.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1377462285771.txt

I have said it before, and I'll say it again: Tournament is the swingiest card in the game.  Despite having more Tournaments, I don't connect until T16, at which point Bekse already has three Prizes.  Despite Bekse taking Bag of Gold as his first prize, I lose.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1377462956658.txt

Mining Village, Goons, Masquerade, with some Rogues thrown in for amusement.  Mini-Combo: trash a Mining Village for $2, then immediately gain it back with Rogue.  But Goons-Masq was always going to be the centerpiece of this board, and my second Masquerade plus some very good luck lining up Village-Goons-Masq on T10 and T11 make the endgame obvious.

Good match, Bekse!
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nopawnsintended

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2013, 07:55:24 pm »
+2

Here is the commentary on the draw between Jdaki and myself.

Game 1: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1377461478129.txt Jdaki 38 No Pawns 32

This game was a tricky Swindler game.  Feodum was in the kingdom, so was Pirate Ship, but Tournament was key.  We both open Swindler/Tournament.  Jdaki gets more Gold than I do in the midgame, and kinda maintains a tenuous lead throughout the game.  Interesting strategic note: I forgot that point tracker was on (and that we had agreed to have it on) until about 2/3 through the game when Jdaki gets the Trusty Steed and starts milking it for Silver.  There was an interesting "trash a Feodum" give him something else tension in the midgame.  At the end, I got a small lead on the turn before Jdaki closed it out.  This one was just too messy for me to really know what was optimal.  I think Jdaki's early game Golds ended up being key.

Game 2: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1377462230173.txt Jdaki 15 No Pawns 44

This was a Governor game.  I hadn't played Governor since isotropic went down, but I was happy to see it.  Grand Market was on the board, but I think it was a little bit of a trap -- too slow to build up to multiple province turns with Govna'.  Anyway, I supplemented my Governor with some Death Carts that landed me some super early Provinces.  With Jdaki pumping me full of Silver, me gaining Gold, and getting labbed by Jdaki's governor-for-the-draw, the game ended quickly.  I also liked that Jdaki bought Masq for me to give him some of the ruins I ended up not trashing because of my Death Cart.


Game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1377462858608.txt Jdaki 39 No Pawns 33

This one was interesting.  I open Chapel/Silver with the intention to go into a Journeyman draw bonanza.  Jdaki opens Silver-Silver for a BM-Ghost Ship thing.  My Journeyman was sort of an interesting soft counter to Ghost Ship, but his strategy ends up pulling through in the end.  He had to buy the last two Provinces, and he did.  I think the difference was likely the fact that I bought Rogue midgame instead of another Gold.  That was probably a bad decision.  Maybe the Caches were a bad idea.  I'm not sure, but I sure stalled in the last couple of turns.

Game 4: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1377463473151.txt Jdaki 30 No Pawns 40

This one felt Kludgy.  I opened Monument/Silver with the intent to pile up some VP chips while slowing down his Smugglers/Tournament open with Witch later on.  But, I ended up having massive Monument/Witch collision.  Favoring Witch over Monument when they collided was a good idea and I feel like it really slowed him down.  He piled up 7 Tournaments, Scavenger had some utility for me, but in the end, this one came down to Witching well.  Maybe it was luck too.  I'm not sure.


Game 5: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1377464196533.txt Jdaki 35 No Pawns 32

I was really disappointed in this one, mostly because of the path dependence of the game.  Sea Hag, Upgrade, Ghost Ship, and both Fishing and Farming Villages were key.  Also, Moat was on the board.  My goal at the outset was to get Sea Hag, get some Upgrades to clean out the inevitable Curses, maybe a Moat or two, and use the Farming Village to skip past the Curses I didn't manage to trash.  What was disappointing was that the first two plays of Jdaki's Hag flipped my Upgrade.  Such is life.  I adapted by getting money and more money, and trying to get points while I could.  Nevertheless, I knew that some Villagey Ghost Ship thing was headed my way, and the fact that I was two cards thicker than I should have been was going to mean that his deck was going to be way faster to that than mine.  Thus, I decided to plan on Ghost Ship mitigation rather than full-on trying to do what he was going to do.  And, it almost worked.  By the time he was Ghost Shipping me every turn, I had a significant Province lead, and some key cards like Moat and several Farming Villages to help with the mitigation.  It wasn't enough, but it was the best effort I felt I could put forth given the path that I ended up following.  Despite not buying a single GS, I only lose by 3.


Game 6: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1377464881596.txt Jdaki 37 No Pawns 42

This game was interesting, and then frustrating, and then interesting again.  Noble Brigand was on the board, and I decided from the beginning that it would be key.  As such, I invested heavily in Cache, and made sure I had the NB upper hand.  Plus, you could probably say that my NBs hit pretty well.  I stake a lead that I see Jdaki trying to eat away by getting Duchies.  So, I get some Duchies too.  We run out Duchies and both start really, really, really choking on Green.  So, we buy more Estates.  At some point in the midgame, I picked up an Herbalist, which helped me keep playing good money.  Once Estates ran out, I had a 7 point lead with one Province remaining... 5 or 6 NBs remaining and Vineyard is on the board.  Jdaki's only path to victory is to buy potion and get some Vineyards.  I know this, and hope that I can hit $4 5 to 6 more times.  Herbalist feels like it is key in this task, and I successfully close out before Jdaki can climb up the Vine wall to nab a Province.

All in all, these games were definitely thinkers, and there was lots of variety.  Thanks to Jdaki for the interesting set of games.
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Slyfox

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2013, 11:45:50 pm »
+2

zaubererer defeates Slyfox 3-1.

*Game 1: zaubererer 28, Slyfox 25
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50627ce1a2e66a82a6ae24ef.1377444182807.txt
Key cards: Marauder, Remake, Laboratory, Shelters

Close game, but zaubererer's five Laboratories help propel him to the win. I bought two copies of Remake, hoping to trash down more quickly, but they collided twice (and perhaps I should have trashed the Remake into a Laboratory one of those times, but did not).  And Remake isn't so good at trashing Shelters.

*Game 2: Slyfox 42, zaubererer 28
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50627ce1a2e66a82a6ae24ef.1377444942813.txt
Key cards: Ambassador, Tunnel, Inn

I bought an Inn with my 5/2 opening, and then Ambasssadors in both turns 3 and 4.  zaubererer picks up one Amassador and not until turn 5.  Inn/Tunnel gives me 10 Gold (out of 27 cards) in my deck by the end to win the Province split 6/2.

*Game 3: zaubererer 30, Slyfox 20
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50627ce1a2e66a82a6ae24ef.1377446262232.txt
Key cards: Witch, Scrying Pool, Procession, Haven

I make the bone-headed mistake to go after Scrying Pool in a game with Witch and no good cantrip action or village.  I have no idea what I was thinking.  Procession was the only way to get +actions, and I didn't pick one up until too late.  I got the engine running at the end, but it was too little, far too late.

*Game 4: zaubererer 47, Slyfox 30
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50627ce1a2e66a82a6ae24ef.1377446923813.txt
Key cards: Apprentice, Tunnel, Horse Traders

I saw the Horse Trader + Tunnel combo, but I didn't immediately appreciate the synergy of Apprentice + Tunnel, allowing Apprentice to trash Golds for massive draw, and Horse Traders to discard the Tunnels each turn.  Horse Traders also added the +buy and made it easy to hit $5 early.  I made a critical mistake by opening Trading Post (rather than Apprentice) on my 5/2 opening.  And then the Trading Post and my Horse Traders collided on turn 6 and 8.  zaubererer grabbed a Horse Trader, a bunch of Apprentices, and a few Tunnels for an easy win.

----

Overall: one close game that I lost as second player, one solid win, and two games in which I simply got out-played by zaubererer.  I made some key strategic mistakes (comments and suggestions welcome!), so overall I was pretty unhappy with my play, but I look forward to the next round.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 11:57:11 pm by Slyfox »
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blueblimp

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2013, 03:17:11 am »
+1

Game 2: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130824/log.5066a4d70cf20e086dc89e71.1377367447114.txt
Beggar, Chapel, Black Market, Trade Route, Tunnel, Cutpurse, Silk Road, Counting House, Inn, Treasury, Witch
Yeah SR was a bit iffy here since lacking gainers. At least the +buy off TR is decent given the number of victory cards present. A winning strategy here is probably going to buy Witch at some point, which I didn't (partly because it wouldn't get played a lot in a bloated deck), so... not too surprising you won out. Though it is crazy how many points the SR racked up by the end.

Quote
Game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130824/log.5066a4d70cf20e086dc89e71.1377368021233.txt
Urchin, Alchemist, Baron, Ironworks, Quarry, Thief, Apprentice, Mandarin, Mystic, Altar
I am not pleased with 5/2 on this board at all, but I go ahead and open Apprentice/-, blueblimp goes Ironworks/Urchin. I don't love Urchin or Mercenary here because Alchemist should counter them nicely. If you collide Urchins really soon it might be worth it, but that isn't the case for my opponent in this game. Our engines aren't very impressive here, I want to blame my draws but it's more likely I made some stupid purchases or Apprentice plays. I win this by getting an early lead and then aggressively trashing Province/Golds to end the game before my opponent can catch up. 18 turns to 4 Provinces looks so slow for what was available on the board though.
Definitely outplayed here. The +buy of Baron is more important than anything Mercenary does, because Apprentice can do trashing. Since there's no village, choice of terminal is crucial, and I chose the wrong one.

Quote
Game 4: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130824/log.5066a4d70cf20e086dc89e71.1377368585338.txt
Courtyard, Squire, Lookout, Market Square, Conspirator, Nomad Camp, Spy, Duke, Royal Seal, Forge
My third game to get 5/2. The kingdom offers a two paths in my mind: Duchy/Duke with Squires/Nomad Camps or Provinces with big Conspirator engine. I go for the Duchy/Duke plan. My opponent opens Lookout/Market Square with the goal of getting a few Golds and contesting Duchies. I win the Duchy split 5/3 and my opponent hasn't been able to gain much gold, and his deck is now flooded with Copper. This makes a Conspirator chain impossible, so he doesn't have much hope of catching up on Provinces. He resigns before the piles can run out.

I really wanted to try the Conspirator engine, but 5/2 was no good for it. I'm interested in how fast that deck can clear Provinces. You would want to open Lookout/Conspirator I think. Get a second Lookout and a few Market Squares. Never gain Gold with Market Square and then lots of Spies/Market Squares/Conspirator until you can at least double Province.
My play this game was just terrible, with a gameplan that made no sense at all. Duchy/Duke seems plausibly the right way to go, and some kind of plan involving Squire/Nomad Camp/Courtyard seems infinitely better for that than the Lookout/Market Square shenanigans I tried. Also my copper buys in midgame didn't make any sense--I was thinking Duchy/Duke, but then I lost the split and had nuked any chance to switch to a Conspirator chain.

Quote
Thanks for the match blueblimp!
Thanks for the games too. Always fun to see how non-mirrors play out.
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shark_bait

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2013, 12:50:15 pm »
+1

Quote
eliegel over Sharkbait 3-1

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1377481958172.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1377482346430.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1377482783128.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1377484079689.txt

Thanks for the games sharkbait, hopefully i'll have time to post a write up of this tomorrow.

Game 1:  I was hoping for the 6-Card golden deck w/ 2 lighthouses to protect against attacks.  a great early Count makes me optimistic.  But failure to get Lighthouses early (I got a couple of Silver) results in getting a couple of ruins on Turn 9.  This sets me back as I never fully recover from that added junk.  Well played by Eliegel, if those Silver had been Lighthouses, I think I could have done better and had a chance.

Game 2:  Masquerade-BM mirror.  A dud Estate hand on my last turn results in a 2-point win for Eliegel instead of a tie (had it been Duchy) or win (had it been Province).

Game 3:  SR/IW/XR.  A great triple SR on Turn 5 sets me up for 5/3 split and easy victory.

Game 4:  This is the one that frustrated me.  He outplayed me in Game 1 and won.  Games 2 and 3 were pretty much boring mirrors wherein he won Game 2 and I won Game 3.  This is the game where I feel I outplayed him but subsequently lost.  The game featured Taxman/Loan/Market Square/Tactician.  I opted for an IW opening which resulted in me having 3 Taxman to his 1 in addition to picking up some GH's "for free".  I end the game with 7 Platinum to his 5.  I had a comfortable lead  of 56 to 40 with 1 Colony left (After turn 21).  And then with FPA he's able to get Colony/Province/2xDuchy with his last turns as opposed to Duchy for my single turn stealing the win.  If anyone can see anyway that I could have played the end-game better I'd love to hear comments.  Because I felt like I set myself up perfectly and it just didn't pan out.

IMO, the brutal blow for me came on Turn 21 when I only got Colony/Estate off of my Tactician turn.  I was expecting Colony/Duchy at the worst with a very likely chance of double Colony for the win.
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Polk5440

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2013, 03:00:25 pm »
+1

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1377484079689.txt

If anyone can see anyway that I could have played the end-game better I'd love to hear comments.  Because I felt like I set myself up perfectly and it just didn't pan out.

IMO, the brutal blow for me came on Turn 21 when I only got Colony/Estate off of my Tactician turn.  I was expecting Colony/Duchy at the worst with a very likely chance of double Colony for the win.

Well, in turn 21 that was bad luck that you couldn't hit one of his Golds with Taxman, but your decks are a lot closer after turn 21 that it first appears. You both have $39. His money density is actually slightly higher (35 total cards to 34). He also has an extra Courtyard and Hamlet instead of 2 Taxmen, which is not such a bad tradeoff, either, given what he needs to score. So after turn 21, I think his deck actually has more scoring potential. You are up 16 points, and he needs a little luck, but it wasn't like he needed an egregious amount of luck to overcome that deficit.

I am surprised you didn't get a second Ironworks early to grab more Hamlets or Courtyards (or Great Halls) instead of one of those 3 Taxmen.

As far as the actual turn 21, the Taxman then draw technique netted you one point. What if instead you had played Courtyard first? (After Market Square and Ironworks-ing a Great Hall). Then decide whether to play a Taxman or two (depending on whether you find a Hamlet -- which in this case you would have -- and/or more money) in order to smooth your money across two turns? Suppose you did that, played one or two Taxmen, and you only got a Province. You set up your next turn with some good money, hopefully hit your opponent's good money this turn (of course it would have missed in this case) and be up 11 points with two Colonies left. He has a Tac turn, but can't go Colony without breaking PCR and knowing you have put a Platinum in your hand. If you really believed in your deck, maybe that would be the way to go.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 03:21:49 pm by Polk5440 »
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ragingduckd

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Re: GokoDom II: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2013, 08:28:13 pm »
0

Quote
eliegel over Sharkbait 3-1

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1377481958172.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1377482346430.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1377482783128.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1377484079689.txt

Thanks for the games sharkbait, hopefully i'll have time to post a write up of this tomorrow.

Game 1:  I was hoping for the 6-Card golden deck w/ 2 lighthouses to protect against attacks.  a great early Count makes me optimistic.  But failure to get Lighthouses early (I got a couple of Silver) results in getting a couple of ruins on Turn 9.  This sets me back as I never fully recover from that added junk.  Well played by Eliegel, if those Silver had been Lighthouses, I think I could have done better and had a chance.

I've tried this sort of thing a lot, mostly out of sheer stubbornness. Cultist is so infuriatingly unskippable that I always want to find ways to skip it.

The problem with defending with Lighthouse is that you're going to have a couple of mid-game turns where you fail to play one. And since it's Cultist instead of an ordinary junker, those two turns leave you with 6 Ruins instead of 1-2 Curses.
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