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Qvist

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Reaction cards mechanics
« on: November 03, 2011, 08:42:27 am »
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Hi,

a lot of people are releasing their fan cards here and although I'm not such a fan reading those posts, I found there a few really good ideas for cards.
Especially those big posts with a whole expansion are difficult to grasp at first sight for me.
So for myself I think I won't make my own expansion, but a few ideas are in my mind which I haven't read anywhere yet.
I hope to hear some feedback if those ideas are well-thought and like to inspire those fan-card-making guys with new ideas.
So, for clarification: All of my ideas are untested and only examples!

With the release of Hinterlands and now the publication of the secret history from Donald X. the most interesting card type in the past month for me is the reaction card.
With the release of the basic set I never ever thought of cards that could react to anything different than attacks.
I like Watchtower very much for "trashing on-gain" or "putting-on-deck on-gain". But now there is Tunnel that triggers to discarding.
So what are the basic actions? 1) Playing, 2) Drawing, 3) Discarding, 4) Buying, 5) Gaining, 6) Trashing, 7) Attacking ... anything else?
Basically to all of these actions there could be reaction cards.

1) I thought of a reaction card that you could reveal when playing a card.
But that would slow the speed of the game down I think. So maybe it works if it is limited to a specfic card type. But nothing useful came to my mind. Maybe someone has an idea?

2) Next would be drawing.
A card could have the reaction text "When you draw this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, + 1 card"
or "Meadow $4 Victory-Reaction // 2VP -- When you draw this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, discard it, + 2 cards"
A bit expensive victory card that can be useful in cycling cards like Embassy or Warehouse
or "Sentinel $2 Action-Reaction // +1 card, $1 -- When you draw this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, + 1 action"
Mostly useless unless you have cycling cards like Embassy or Warehouse so this is basically a cheap peddler. And it can trigger itself.
or "Purse $4 Treasure-Reaction // $2 -- When you draw this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, + 1 buy"
So this can be a Woodcutter without spending an action.
or "Upgraded Workshop $4 Action-Reaction // Gain a card costing up to 4$ -- When you draw this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, gain a card costing up to 4$"
This is a Workshop with the possibility to gain two cards up to $4 in one turn.
This are just basic examples that could be fun to play with. Of course you can expand this and make it more complicated and intriguing.
I just wanted to combine known formats with the reaction effect.
We just need the new rule that if the effects (+1 action, +1buy) are triggered by the opponents (e.g. Council Room) the gained bonus is kept in mind until your turn starts.
Or we define that these reactions can't be triggered by opponents. What do you think?

3) Next is discarding. We all know Tunnel, but what effects could also be possible? Just a few examples:
"Planchet $2 Treasure-Reaction // $1 -- When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, +$2."
This is an expensive copper, but can be a cheap silver if you have cycling cards or if you're attacked from cards like Militia. Or in combination with Vault it's in fact a gold.
"Small Mine $3 Action-Reaction // Trash up to 2 cards from your hand -- When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, trash a Treasure card from your hand. Gain a Treasure card costing up to 3 Coins more; put it into your hand."
This is a mine that can be triggered on discarding. I didn't know what could be the main effect so I decided to add a trash effect without benefit. So this can be a quite a good opener in some situations.

4) and 5) I combine gaining and buying because on-gain is the better effect of on-buy. Watchtower and Trader are the prototypes.
And we have the possibility to add trigger on your gain or on the gain of the opponents as shown on Fool's Gold.
So what about these?
"Bargainer $4 Reaction // When you or another player gains a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, discard this and gain a card costing less than it."
This may be a dead card, but can be very powerful. Your opponent gets a colony, you reveal Bargainer and get the last Province and win the game.
"Arch $4 Action-Reaction // +2 cards, +2 Buys -- When you buy a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a card costing $1 more."
Play Arch, buy 3 cards and reveal another Arch and get 3 cards costing $1 more each. So it's bridge-like. I don't know if it's priced right.
And what about this?
"Fraudster $5 Action-Reaction // + 1 Buy -- When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, discard this and return the gained card to the supply. Each other player gains a copy of it.
Is it too strong? Buy a curse with an extra buy, reveal Fraudster. Each player gets a curse. But 2 of the other 3 players have a Fraudster in hand too: Curse explosion (just like the Haggler explosion, Donald X wrote about)
Or another player plays Witch. You reveal Fraudster and the player who played Witch gets a Curse (and of course each other player 2 Curses in total).
Maybe I have to change it in "When you buy a card" but I don't know if it's still interesting.

6) On-Trash is interesting. Let's see.
"Doctor $4 Action-Reaction // Trash up to two cards. Get +$1 for each trashed card. -- When you would trash a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, discard this and put the trashed card aside. Put that to your discard pile in your clean-up phase"
This is my favourit card, I'd like to see. The trash effect itself is not that strong. But it is a good opener. But the on-trash-effect is interesting. It's like your possessing yourself. You get the profit from trashing but can keep the card if you want.
So you get for a trashed province from Bishop +4VP, +$8 from Salvager or +8 cards from Apprentice, but can keep the Province itself. Is it too strong? What price would be right?
I came up with Treasure-Reaction and Victory-Reaction too, but there is the problem if there's no card for trashing it is a dead card on the board.
For example "Borrowed Land $4 Victory-Reaction // 2VP -- When you trash this, +2VP tokens"
But it would be better a on-gain, on-draw or on-discard like
"Borrowed Land $4 Victory-Reaction // 2VP -- When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, trash this, +2VP tokens"

7) On-Attack is already done often. But there might be more possibilities.
"Hurdle $2 Action-Reaction // +2 Cards, When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, discard this, +3 cards."
So if an opponent plays a Militia-like card, reveal Hurdle, discard it, draw 3 cards and discard 2 cards from the attack, so you have still 5 cards. Or you gain a curse, but now you have 7 cards in hand.

Wow, what a long post. Thanks if you're still reading this. I'd like to hear some thoughts. Would that be good mechanisms? Would you like that in a future expansion?

rinkworks

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 09:57:11 am »
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Great thoughts here.  I like your "when you would trash" idea.  You're right that it would make trash-for-benefit cards powerful, but I suspect merely as a legitimate power combo rather than something brokenly powerful, since you'd have to draw the trasher and the reaction together.   I agree that that's probably the most promising of these different reaction cues.

I suspect the playing and drawing cues aren't going to be good to try to use.  The former, for the reasons you say.  The latter, because the accountability isn't necessarily clear all the time, due to the way cards get shuffled around during play.  For example, when I play a Warehouse, I just pull three cards into my hand right away and only then look at them.  If I then reveal a reaction card, is it clear that I just drew it, rather than it having been already in my hand?

The other cues you list all have official cards that use them, so obviously they can work at least sometimes.  I think it's important to test reactions more than anything, though, just because the risk of landing into a broken game state is probably more likely and easier to miss.  Events that interrupt other events are difficult to track if the game allows them to stack too much.  The Secret History of the Hinterlands cards hint at that sort of hazard in the write-ups for Haggler and Noble Brigand and such, which I found very interesting.
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Davio

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 09:57:40 am »
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I agree that a lot of the Reaction type is unexplored. Hinterlands has given us 4 3 Reaction cards, which is a lot for an expansion, but the "on-draw" and "on-trash" events are still open.

You should always be careful not too make the Reaction cards too dependent on their reaction. Moat still draws 2 cards for example, so it isn't completely useless in the absence of Attack cards.

You could also make the Reaction trigger on your opponent's draws.

Example
Copycat - $3
Action - Reaction

+1 Card
+1 Action
"When another player draws a card other than during his Clean-up phase, you may reveal and discard this; if you do, +2 Cards."
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 10:02:51 am by Davio »
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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 10:05:18 am »
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Actually there is no such thing like a reaction to attacking. There are just reactions that answer to attack cards being played, which is the main reason why you reveal your Moat before the opponent decides what to do with his Minion/Pirate Ship played.
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Qvist

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 10:42:22 am »
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Great thoughts here.  I like your "when you would trash" idea.  You're right that it would make trash-for-benefit cards powerful, but I suspect merely as a legitimate power combo rather than something brokenly powerful, since you'd have to draw the trasher and the reaction together. I agree that that's probably the most promising of these different reaction cues.
Thanks a lot. The good thing in Dominion is that everyone has the great chance to build up the same combo. In these terms I agree with you. Doctor would be super-powerful on boards with trash-for-benefit cards, but everyone can buy them.

I suspect the playing and drawing cues aren't going to be good to try to use.  The former, for the reasons you say.  The latter, because the accountability isn't necessarily clear all the time, due to the way cards get shuffled around during play.  For example, when I play a Warehouse, I just pull three cards into my hand right away and only then look at them.  If I then reveal a reaction card, is it clear that I just drew it, rather than it having been already in my hand?
Didn't thought of that problem. Yeah, then you have to draw one after another and look at it to have the chance to reveal it. And that would also slow the speed down. But that issue wouldn't be that terrible as on-play I think.

The other cues you list all have official cards that use them, so obviously they can work at least sometimes.  I think it's important to test reactions more than anything, though, just because the risk of landing into a broken game state is probably more likely and easier to miss.  Events that interrupt other events are difficult to track if the game allows them to stack too much.  The Secret History of the Hinterlands cards hint at that sort of hazard in the write-ups for Haggler and Noble Brigand and such, which I found very interesting.
Because of that I mentioned that these are just ideas. I haven't tested them and I think won't do that. So before copying these ideas for your personal use, test these cards.

You should always be careful not too make the Reaction cards too dependent on their reaction. Moat still draws 2 cards for example, so it isn't completely useless in the absence of Attack cards.
I always tried that in my examples. Because of that I see a problem with on-trash on victory or treasure cards because they will be useless without trashing actions.

You could also make the Reaction trigger on your opponent's draws.
Yes I thought of that but that would be slowing the speed more down as rinkworks already mentioned. If you react to your own draw, it's ok. But on the opponents' draw, I don't know. Someone has to test this. But I like your example idea.

Actually there is no such thing like a reaction to attacking. There are just reactions that answer to attack cards being played, which is the main reason why you reveal your Moat before the opponent decides what to do with his Minion/Pirate Ship played.
What do you mean? There are 3 existing cards that say "When another player plays an Attack card". And my example also says that. If the attack affects you or not, because Pirate Ship takes the money, doesn't matter. You can discard Hurdle and draw 3 cards.

kn1tt3r

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2011, 10:59:31 am »
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What do you mean? There are 3 existing cards that say "When another player plays an Attack card". And my example also says that. If the attack affects you or not, because Pirate Ship takes the money, doesn't matter. You can discard Hurdle and draw 3 cards.

I was referring to this:

Quote
So what are the basic actions? 1) Playing, 2) Drawing, 3) Discarding, 4) Buying, 5) Gaining, 6) Trashing, 7) Attacking ...

What Moat and Lighthouse react to is a special case of 1), not 7). That means basically that 7) is still an open slot, that is, however, probably not worth filling.
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Davio

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2011, 11:19:16 am »
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I don't think reacting to your opponent's draw is that big of a deal, but you have to be careful.

For cards that react to Attack cards each player has to do something anyway (discard, grab a Curse), so revealing a Reaction card doesn't take that much "extra" work.

Of course this has been overruled by the Reaction cards from Hinterlands that don't adhere to this, nor did Watchtower, so I feel you can do whatever you want with Reaction cards, just keep it sane.

That's why I chose for the Reaction card to have to be discarded so it can't be used over and over again. Of course, you could if you have only 5 or 6 cards in your deck total, but why would you have that AND be annoying at the same time?
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Diving Pikachu

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2011, 03:40:41 pm »
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Quote
2) Next would be drawing.
A card could have the reaction text "When you draw this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it."

This idea has a fatal flaw: there's no method built into Dominion rules to keep players accountable as to whether this condition was truly met or not. Dominion has no phase within drawing where you have the card but keep it separate from the rest of your hand. That's why effects with conditional draws make you Reveal the card first, and then Put it into your hand, and not ever simply "draw" it. Perhaps you can make it "When you draw a card, you may reveal and discard this card to draw X more cards as well".

I myself have actually been playing around with a reaction using this condition: "When you draw this during your cleanup phase, you may reveal it before the next player's turn starts. If you do..." I was thinking this card could do a pre-emptive horse traders: you set aside the reaction and discard one other card, which makes you immune to Militia etc, and then your next turn, you get it back and draw one more card.

Quote
7) On-Attack is already done often. But there might be more possibilities.
"Hurdle $2 Action-Reaction // +2 Cards, When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, discard this, +3 cards."
So if an opponent plays a Militia-like card, reveal Hurdle, discard it, draw 3 cards and discard 2 cards from the attack, so you have still 5 cards. Or you gain a curse, but now you have 7 cards in hand.

Makes every single attack card significantly worse to use. You're better off avoiding even Spies and Minions.

Anyways, you might be interested in these villages I made in the village thread with reactions that make them essentially treasures during the buy phase:

Quote
Gypsie Camp $5
(Action-Reaction)
+2 Actions
Name 1 card before revealing the top 4 cards of your deck. You may put one revealed copy of the named card into your hand, if you find any. You may discard one revealed card as well. Put the remaining cards on top of your deck in any order.
If you start your Buy Phase with this card in your hand, you may reveal and discard it. If you do, each other player gains a Curse card.
***

High Street or Market Street $4
(Action-Reaction)
+1 card
+2 Actions
If you start your Buy Phase with this card in your hand, you may reveal and discard it. If you do, +1 Buy, +$2
***
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 04:04:56 pm by Diving Pikachu »
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ChaosRed

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2011, 03:57:10 pm »
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Ghost Village is cool fun. Minion + Ghost Village is NASTY though :)
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Diving Pikachu

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2011, 04:02:26 pm »
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Ghost Village is cool fun. Minion + Ghost Village is NASTY though :)

Oops, you made me realize I shared High Street and Ghost Village when I meant to share High Street and Gypsie Camp.

Here's Ghost Village before I edit it out of my above post:

Quote
Ghost Village $4
(Action-Reaction)
+1 Card
+2 Actions
When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, each other player gains a Curse card.
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dnkywin

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2011, 01:16:36 pm »
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How about cards that give you some kind of benefit after absorbing some attacks?

Aschenputtel ($3) - Action-Reaction

While this card is in play, all cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.

You may trash this card and remove 3 tokens from the Princess Mat. If you do, +1 action, Gain a Prize or a Gold, putting it in your hand.
------------------------
When another player plays an attack card, you may set this card aside from your hand. If you do, gain a token on the Princess Mat, and return this card to your hand at the start of the next turn.

For those who don't know, Aschenputtel is Cinderella in German
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 02:43:55 pm by dnkywin »
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ChaosRed

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2011, 01:14:55 pm »
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Has this kinda thing been mentioned yet?

Ancient Witch
5$ - Action Reaction
+2 Cards
------------------------------
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, the attacking player gains a Curse, this is not considered an attack.

I had to put the "this is not considered an attack" to avoid an infinite loop.

Also I like the idea of cards that react to other players gaining treasure. I keep toying with the idea of making buying currency dangerous or risky, as part of a theme's expansion. I guess I am just obsessed with the idea of low-scoring, alternate-victory paths.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2011, 01:29:58 pm »
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I had to put the "this is not considered an attack" to avoid an infinite loop.
No, you didn't. You can tell it's not an Attack because it doesn't have the Attack type. (Cards that deal out Curses without being Attacks are rare, but not unknown: Masquerade, Embargo and Ill-Gotten Gains can all end up sending Curses to other players.)

ETA: Although you really need a reveal-and-set-aside mechanism in that card. Otherwise the Attacker will pick up the entire Curse pile.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 01:34:18 pm by Jack Rudd »
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ChaosRed

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2011, 01:41:41 pm »
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No, only if he kept attacking. I think the distinction it isn't an attack is important. Although the card isn't an attack card, it is a reaction to an attack, so I thought the distinction is useful, (lest players think its an infinite loop). Although, it would probably be better handled as a clarification in the rules, because as you say, the card isn't specifically marked as an attack.

Also the attack succeeds, in the case of a Witch being played, and the Ancient Witch being revealed, both players wind up getting a Curse. (I think the reaction would fire first, so the attacking player gets a Curse first, then the defending player, but I am unsure about that, its possible the attacking player spreads the Curse first, then the defending person spreads his, the distinction is important of course when there's only 1 Curse left).

The card needs work to be sure, I was more asking about whether spreading Curses had been considered as a type of reaction.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 01:43:47 pm by ChaosRed »
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dondon151

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2011, 01:57:17 pm »
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No, only if he kept attacking. I think the distinction it isn't an attack is important. Although the card isn't an attack card, it is a reaction to an attack, so I thought the distinction is useful, (lest players think its an infinite loop). Although, it would probably be better handled as a clarification in the rules, because as you say, the card isn't specifically marked as an attack.

Yes, the distinction is important. No, you do not need to point out that distinction on that card, as the distinction is already present in the rules.
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ftl

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2011, 02:52:47 pm »
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You do need to add some extra mechanic to the card. Without it, you could reveal the same card multiple times (since this is indistinguishable from revealing different copies of the same card multiple times) and thus give away the entire curse pile by revealing one AW ten times against an attack. 

Even better, I would suggest changing the phrasing to say

"When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If at least one Ancient Witch is revealed in response to an attack, the attacking player gains a curse."

This scales much better to multiple players, so you can't pick up 3 curses yourself from playing one Spy!

One worry I have about giving away curses as a reaction is that it totally shuts down a whole host of other cards which are non-cursing attacks. For example, the presence of AW makes Scrying Pool really dangerous - if there's no other curser on the board to deplete the curses, playing a scrying pool deck is just begging to pick up multiple curses per turn from an AW. Or Spy, or Pirate Ship, or Militia, or Torturer, or Rabble, or Fortune Teller, or Minion, and so on - these will all suffer from the problem that if a reaction can give out curses, then the attack becomes not worth it (because the possibility of gaining curses is more dangerous than the certainty of hitting with the attack).  And it has that effect even if the interaction part of the card was totally incidental to the way it was used - usually if I'm buying a bunch of Scrying Pools I don't care much about the top-decking, or maybe I just need Rabbles because they're the only card-draw around and I'm aiming to set up a KC/bridge megaturn. But they're still attacks, and would get shut down hard by AW.

Maybe that's a feature and not a bug, not sure.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 02:58:38 pm by ftl »
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ChaosRed

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2011, 02:58:54 pm »
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I thought the rules implicitly state you can only react once to an attack? I always thought that was the rule.
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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2011, 04:20:11 pm »
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I thought the rules implicitly state you can only react once to an attack? I always thought that was the rule.
No. You can react an indefinite number of times to an attack - even with the same reaction card. You just shouldn't (with the same reaction that is), 'cause everyone will hate you ;)

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2011, 04:39:10 pm »
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I thought the rules implicitly state you can only react once to an attack? I always thought that was the rule.

I think that according to the rules, you can reveal multiple times; one reason is because there's no mechanism in place for distinguishing multiple copies of a card in hand. If I have two secret chambers in hand, how would my opponent know if I revealed one of them twice or each of them once?

As it is, the onus on preventing that from happening is on the cards themselves. For most current reactions, there's no reason to reveal something more than once, as it will simply have no effect the second time. If you Moat an attack once, it has no effect... same if you Moat it twice or three times.

There is ONE exception - Secret Chamber. I can, for example, reveal Secret Chamber, draw a moat from the top of my deck (putting back two other cards), reveal it, then use Secret chamber again to put it back on top of the deck. Currently, SC is I believe the only reaction that it will ever make sense to reveal more than once, and even then there's never any point in revealing it more than twice.

Horse Traders WOULD be an exception - but it has the set-aside mechanic printed on it to prevent multiple reveals.

You just have to be careful to phrase your cards to maintain that. Either phrase the card so that revealing it more than once has no added effect, or have it say 'set aside this card after revealing it, put it back in your hand after [the attack is resolved, or the end of the opponent's turn, or the start of your turn]' so it's not possible to do multiple-reveals. It's just something that isn't in the main rules and so has to go on the cards.

It's not a big deal because it's actually pretty easy to phrase cards to keep that property, without much more excess writing.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2011, 04:42:39 pm »
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No. You can react an indefinite number of times to an attack - even with the same reaction card. You just shouldn't (with the same reaction that is), 'cause everyone will hate you ;)

Thanks for the clarification. Interesting that reactions are infinite, it limits what you can do with them (from a design standpoint), without clumsy wording. My apologies I was unaware of this, actually I thought it was specifically NOT like this. I guess the original design idea is that if you have two reaction cards, you can play both.

I'll adjust to a derivative of what ftl suggested:

"When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If one or more Ancient Witch is revealed in response to this attack, the attacking player gains a Curse."

I could add, "Only 1 Curse may be gained by the attacker for this specific attack on this turn", but I am not sure that's necessary.
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rinkworks

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2011, 04:52:23 pm »
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The card needs work to be sure, I was more asking about whether spreading Curses had been considered as a type of reaction.

It has: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=71.0

Edit: The card could still be given the Attack sub-type, though, and not cause an infinite loop.  Because when you "reveal" an attack card, that's not the same as "playing" an attack card.  By revealing an attack card, cards like Moat, Secret Chamber, and this one cannot be revealed, because those are only revealable when someone playing an attack.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 04:55:45 pm by rinkworks »
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ChaosRed

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2011, 05:12:41 pm »
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It has: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=71.0

Interesting.

The argument against "Revenge" is tricky for me to decipher. The argument seems to be, that in a four-player game, attacks are not only neutralized with "Revenge" they become an utterly losing proposition, which then renders the "Revenge" card useless, because nobody will attack?

I get the idea, I guess my own weak rebuttal is attacks are already pretty devastating. Defense mechanisms, by comparison, can't really keep up. Would it be so terrible that one card came along to tip the scale in the other way? In a two-player game, if "Revenge" gave attackers a Curse (which we all know can run out), aren't you still going to reach for Mountebank? You might occasionally have to eat a Curse yourself, but you've infected a Curse and Copper on your opponent, guaranteed. It's a gamble, but one that always pays off for you, but sometimes comes at the price of infecting yourself.

I know Donald's right of course, (he knows the game better than anyone), but help me understand why he's right and I'd be grateful. I guess, what he's saying is, defense mechanisms are reactions from multiple players, to a single event from the attacker. Meaning any reaction that harms the attacker outright gets out of balance if all other opponents happen to defend this way to the event. I guess the solution is to govern it, so that playing more than one reaction only infects the attacker once? But then, in that case, it makes for a really weak defense, and worse, you'd probably just try to rely on your opponent playing it, since your additional play essentially does nothing.

I don't want to come across as argumentative, I'm just actually curious if there's a way to elegantly solve the design problem. Clearly Donald's thought about it and has decided there isn't a solution, so I'm probably heading down a dark, lonely alleyway with this one. :)
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2011, 09:33:24 pm »
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Some Attacks are a lot more devastating than others. The trouble with Reactions that harm the Attacker is that they render the likes of Spy and Fortune Teller virtually unplayable: it's just not worth eating a Curse to screw with someone else's deck and discard pile.
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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2011, 10:05:25 pm »
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Some Attacks are a lot more devastating than others. The trouble with Reactions that harm the Attacker is that they render the likes of Spy and Fortune Teller virtually unplayable: it's just not worth eating a Curse to screw with someone else's deck and discard pile.

Isn't that sometimes true with Trader as well? Not worth playing that Sea Hag if you're just going to be handing out Silver, I mean. Having the Reaction effect be a penalty to the attacker rather than a benefit to the reacter is meaner, but is it substantively different in the extent to which it would make people hesitate about playing attacks?
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ftl

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Re: Reaction cards mechanics
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2011, 11:00:39 pm »
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It's different in how it scales to 3 and 4 player. In 4-player, only the person who has the Trader gets an advantage from the Sea Hag; whereas, something that was a penalty to the attacker would ALSO help those players who didn't do anything and took the brunt of the attack.

In the Ancient Witch/Witch example, if one person plays a Witch and one person reacts with an Ancient Witch, it has the same effect for all players - EVERYONE playing gains a curse, including the people who didn't buy either of them (and are thus ahead of both the attacker and the reactor because they didn't spend their buys on either). Whereas if one person plays a Witch and someone reveals a Trader, the person who had the Trader is ahead (got themselves a silver), the person who played the Witch is still okay, and two other people just got cursed.
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