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[Vampyroteuthis Infernalis]

Just came across this combo in a game. It's pretty straightforward, but I couldn't find any posts about it already, so I figured it'd be worth mentioning.

As noted in A_S00's Fool's Gold article (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2143.0), FG likes +Buy, +Cards, and trashing.

However, since any buy spent picking up FG enablers is a buy not spent picking up another FG, good Fool's Gold enablers tend to be package deals that do more than one of those things. Also, the fewer non-FG cards in your deck, the greater the chance of your FGs meeting up.

Many of the enablers listed in A_S00's article meet that criteria:

Council Room, Margrave: +Cards, +Buy
Salvager: +Buy, trashing
Masquerade: +Cards, trashing
Spice Merchant: +Cards or +Buy, trashing

Storeroom is another card that helps out FG decks in multiple ways and can be picked up with minimal opportunity cost. It gives both +Buy and +Cards. In the absence of discard attacks, you're guaranteed to be able to pick up two FGs each time you play it. Once you have FGs it helps you sift through your deck to find them, and being able to discard green for money reduces your slowdown once you start greening.

A couple of games that feature this combo:

Evee vs Smoke_Screen:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9005.msg273551#msg273551

Vampyroteuthis vs 2yin:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130814/log.516d091ae4b082c74d7a96dd.1376495038639.txt#Game Over

Some questions:
(1) How does storeroom stack up against the other FG enablers?
(2) Is it worth the opportunity cost to pick up a second storeroom?
(3) What other Dark Ages and Guilds cards should be added to the list of FG enablers?

[achmed_sender]

Yes, Storeroom is one of the best FG supporters.

1.) It' one of the best, I suppose. Maybe drawing cards (especially Margrave because the attack) can outclass it.
2.) I suppose so, quiet early to maximaze the FGs, maybe even a 3rd in endgame
3.) Maybe Hermit is kind of nice but a lot weaker. And Candlestick Maker is a nice to with FGs.

[sudgy]

And it increases cycling, giving you your fool's gold and the storeroom again sooner.

[RD]

(3) What other Dark Ages and Guilds cards should be added to the list of FG enablers?

Counterfeit will be very strong. Taxman can likewise be used to gain FGs while trashing, but the attack won't stop anyone from buying FG and you stand a good chance of not being able to buy a FG on the same turn, so I doubt it's much good.

I haven't tried but I suspect FG goes nicely with either overpay or Coin tokens since it can give you a lot of awkward $7-type turns. Merchant Guild and Doctor come to mind, maybe Stonemason under certain circumstances. Also CM as achmed_sender said.

[ycz6]

How many other cards guarantee $4 and 2 buys from a 5-card hand? I can't think of any.

[blueblimp]

How many other cards guarantee $4 and 2 buys from a 5-card hand? I can't think of any.

Margrave, at the start of the game. After playing it, you'll have 7 cards in hand, so even if three of those are Estates, you'll still have at least $4, plus an extra buy.

[ycz6]

How many other cards guarantee $4 and 2 buys from a 5-card hand? I can't think of any.

Margrave, at the start of the game. After playing it, you'll have 7 cards in hand, so even if three of those are Estates, you'll still have at least $4, plus an extra buy.

Yeah, there are a few which will do when inserted into a starting deck. Margrave, Council Room, Horse Traders... and Grand Market. Probably some others also. Wharf on the next turn.

[flies]

Double storeroom opening with FG any good?

[Awaclus]

Double storeroom opening with FG any good?

I'd imagine it is pretty good. Especially if you can get it with Stonemason and still buy a Fool's Gold before your first reshuffle.

[eliegel34]

How about Goons Fool's Gold (on a non engine baker board)?

[awildnoobappeared]

It's a very nice combo but alone it's not quite enough for Fools Gold to dominate: you still need 3 FGs in hand after the "cellar" discard of Storeroom to buy a Province.

It's very nice for getting the FGs in the first place though.

[Compynerd255]

It's a very nice combo but alone it's not quite enough for Fools Gold to dominate: you still need 3 FGs in hand after the "cellar" discard of Storeroom to buy a Province.

Actually, the idea is that you use the Cellar discard to get multiple Fools Golds into your hand, then use the Secret Chamber discard to discard everything that isn't Fools Gold, actual Gold, or Silver. It's still pretty weak, because if you only have two Fools Golds, you need three other cards, which requires a handsize increaser. But if you also have a Silver, you only need one other card, which still fits within your five card hand.

[eHalcyon]

It's a very nice combo but alone it's not quite enough for Fools Gold to dominate: you still need 3 FGs in hand after the "cellar" discard of Storeroom to buy a Province.

Actually, the idea is that you use the Cellar discard to get multiple Fools Golds into your hand, then use the Secret Chamber discard to discard everything that isn't Fools Gold, actual Gold, or Silver. It's still pretty weak, because if you only have two Fools Golds, you need three other cards, which requires a handsize increaser. But if you also have a Silver, you only need one other card, which still fits within your five card hand.

I have to disagree.  Storeroom is excellent FG support.  The ability to pick up 2 FG at a time is stellar, and Storeroom guarantees this when you play it.  Storeroom also provides sifting and cycling so you can find and play your FGs together, reducing the need to clear out starting junk.  The +Buy can be useful even after FG are out, if you draw 4 FG for Province+Duchy or even 3 FG for 2 Duchies if necessary.

[shark_bait]

It's a very nice combo but alone it's not quite enough for Fools Gold to dominate: you still need 3 FGs in hand after the "cellar" discard of Storeroom to buy a Province.

Actually, the idea is that you use the Cellar discard to get multiple Fools Golds into your hand, then use the Secret Chamber discard to discard everything that isn't Fools Gold, actual Gold, or Silver. It's still pretty weak, because if you only have two Fools Golds, you need three other cards, which requires a handsize increaser. But if you also have a Silver, you only need one other card, which still fits within your five card hand.

It's not weak.  Play Storeroom, have 2 FG in hand afterwards.  You only need a Silver or Gold to buy Province.  Other ways to buy province without Storeroom include 2xFG/Gold.  You opened Storeroom/FG.  In theory, both you and your opponent will get 3 FG each on turns 3/4.  This leads to either a 5/5 or 6/4 split depending on whether player 1 draw Storeroom on Turn 5. 

So after Turn 5, you have a deck that has 1 Storeroom, 5xFG, 7x Copper and 3x Estate.  That is a good deck.  You are greening by Turn 6.  On non-Province buys, you want Gold at $6-7, another Storeroom at $3-5 followed by Silver.  This deck is fast and reliable and extremely competitive.

[eHalcyon]

Strategic note -- when you are still buying up FG, you will usually want to maximize your cycling.  You can freely discard everything to Storeroom's Cellar effect to cycle 4 cards and then still buy two FG thanks to the SC effect.  Depending on where you are in the shuffle, you might not Cellar your entire hand in order to prevent Storeroom from missing the shuffle.  You want to cycle more quickly so that you can play Storeroom again as soon as possible.

This might change if you have a second Storeroom, but I expect that it isn't worth getting a second Storeroom until the FGs our depleted.  You can cycle so quickly that the second copy is more likely to be drawn dead and discarded.  Better to pick up another FG instead to try to win the split.

[Compynerd255]

It's a very nice combo but alone it's not quite enough for Fools Gold to dominate: you still need 3 FGs in hand after the "cellar" discard of Storeroom to buy a Province.

Actually, the idea is that you use the Cellar discard to get multiple Fools Golds into your hand, then use the Secret Chamber discard to discard everything that isn't Fools Gold, actual Gold, or Silver. It's still pretty weak, because if you only have two Fools Golds, you need three other cards, which requires a handsize increaser. But if you also have a Silver, you only need one other card, which still fits within your five card hand.

It's not weak.  Play Storeroom, have 2 FG in hand afterwards.  You only need a Silver or Gold to buy Province.  Other ways to buy province without Storeroom include 2xFG/Gold.  You opened Storeroom/FG.  In theory, both you and your opponent will get 3 FG each on turns 3/4.  This leads to either a 5/5 or 6/4 split depending on whether player 1 draw Storeroom on Turn 5.

That's true, I didn't think of that: you would only not have a Silver or Gold in hand with your two FG if you didn't play your cards right (tee hee). You wouldn't need a handsize increase at all - if you have a good buying strategy, like the one you stated, you should be able to get those essential pieces most turns.

[Vampyroteuthis Infernalis]

when you are still buying up FG, you will usually want to maximize your cycling.

I expect that it isn't worth getting a second Storeroom until the FGs are depleted.

Agreed on both points.

Storeroom is definitely near the top as far as early game cycling is concerned (behind Scavenger and Chancellor).  However, if you're trying to get to key action cards with it, you're constrained by the risk of dead draw. FG is nice because it lets you take advantage of Storeroom's cycling without any risk.

[Vampyroteuthis Infernalis]

Just had a Storeroom / FG game with ambassador on the board.

Vampyroteuthis vs Bama:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.50b8f6aee4b015dcbac5eee2.1377113759826.txt#Game Over

I won out against the ambassador deck in the end, but it was pretty close. If there had been a village on the board and more than one ambassador a turn was feasible, it would be a different story I think. But with one ambassador max per turn, storeroom/FG is still fast enough to be competitive.

Maybe a storeroom/ambassador opening would have been best.

[eliegel34]

Just had a Storeroom / FG game with ambassador on the board.

Vampyroteuthis vs Bama:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.50b8f6aee4b015dcbac5eee2.1377113759826.txt#Game Over

I think Storeroom Apothecary would be competitive on this board.  Storeroom helps you find your Potion early on.  Later in the game it allows you to clear any green off the top of your deck (as typically happens with Apothecary), and should allow you to green pretty resiliently.  That said, letting someone get 10 FG with storeroom is probably a loosing proposition.   

[ycz6]

I actually think that's a really interesting kingdom. Heavy Ambassador into Baker + 1 Poor House, Apothecary/Storeroom, and Fool's Gold/Storeroom all seem strong, and there might be some rock/paper/scissors stuff going on: Apothecary is a solid counter to Ambassador, but gets outsped by the Fool's Gold deck, which in turn loses to the junking from Ambassador. Probably a hybrid of some kind is best? Storeroom/FG also has big problems with a slimmed-down deck with Militia in it.

Oh shoot, I forgot about the starting coin from Baker too. Baker/Ambassador seems like a strong opening. I think your opponent probably didn't use Amb aggressively enough?

[sudgy]

Just had a Storeroom / FG game with ambassador on the board.

Vampyroteuthis vs Bama:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.50b8f6aee4b015dcbac5eee2.1377113759826.txt#Game Over

I won out against the ambassador deck in the end, but it was pretty close. If there had been a village on the board and more than one ambassador a turn was feasible, it would be a different story I think. But with one ambassador max per turn, storeroom/FG is still fast enough to be competitive.

Maybe a storeroom/ambassador opening would have been best.

This proves that Ambassador isn't the best $3 card, and therefore Lookout is.

[Compynerd255]

Just had a Storeroom / FG game with ambassador on the board.

Vampyroteuthis vs Bama:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.50b8f6aee4b015dcbac5eee2.1377113759826.txt#Game Over

I won out against the ambassador deck in the end, but it was pretty close. If there had been a village on the board and more than one ambassador a turn was feasible, it would be a different story I think. But with one ambassador max per turn, storeroom/FG is still fast enough to be competitive.

Maybe a storeroom/ambassador opening would have been best.

This proves that Ambassador isn't the best $3 card, and therefore Lookout is.

Not really - it just proves that Ambassador can be beaten. If it was the best $3 period, winning against every non-mirror matchup, it would be broken and would not be in the game.

[sudgy]

Just had a Storeroom / FG game with ambassador on the board.

Vampyroteuthis vs Bama:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130821/log.50b8f6aee4b015dcbac5eee2.1377113759826.txt#Game Over

I won out against the ambassador deck in the end, but it was pretty close. If there had been a village on the board and more than one ambassador a turn was feasible, it would be a different story I think. But with one ambassador max per turn, storeroom/FG is still fast enough to be competitive.

Maybe a storeroom/ambassador opening would have been best.

This proves that Ambassador isn't the best $3 card, and therefore Lookout is.

Not really - it just proves that Ambassador can be beaten. If it was the best $3 period, winning against every non-mirror matchup, it would be broken and would not be in the game.

I was joking, from the $3 card list thread.