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Author Topic: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums  (Read 28548 times)

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ragingduckd

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2013, 06:12:32 pm »
+5

...

All good points. Perhaps I've acquired a bias about dondon's posts. I'll try to weigh them more carefully in the future.
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dondon151

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2013, 06:19:13 pm »
+1

dondon151's are nearly useless because he rarely actually says anything more than "I disagree."

I don't personally think that disagreeing without giving a reason is nearly useless. It should provoke you to think, "well, why?" As for the statements in WW's power rankings thread, for example:

In either case, you aren't going to use these as primary villages all that often.

This is almost certainly not true.

Look, I remember using Hamlet quite often as a primary village. I don't need to provide a reasoning why. I just know that I have.

Now how 'bout some Venture math?
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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2013, 06:39:12 pm »
+5

If charm was required, who would ever listen to Wandering Winder?

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popsofctown

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2013, 06:51:06 pm »
0

Aren't you the guy who only played solitaire games on iso?  I don't think I have you confused with someone else, you have only about 300 games played on isotropic. I've played 5k, Mic has played 4k (oof, right in the egoz).

If you want to go there, after 5000 games on Iso, you were level 29. After ~250 games on Iso (on an alt account), I was level 43.

No one brought up goko but you.

Pray tell, how do I play Dominion online?

If OP wants to throw away all the work he's done and play using a one line motto from an expert, then that person needs to definitely be an expert.

I wasn't suggesting that. However, I do recall this exact topic being discussed before.

I'm sorry if this sounded nasty, but despite having only logged 5% as many games as you had on Iso (10% if you count both of my accounts), the leaderboard doesn't suggest that I lacked expertise at this game.
I am not volunteering my expertise at all.  I thought pulling a random 40+ player's games played and making a self-deprecating remark would be enough to make that clear.  I'm just defending "you don't play online" as being a relevant in regards to whether you have enough expertise to say something like "just delete your formula and add 1 to a treasure in your deck".  I'm just arguing it's relevant, I don't actually think it is that big a deal.  Really the number of games played you need to make oneliners like that is about 100,000; but pointing out how a lack of online play puts you even farther from that was icing for the meme.
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PSGarak

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2013, 07:32:12 pm »
+2

dondon151's are nearly useless because he rarely actually says anything more than "I disagree."

I don't personally think that disagreeing without giving a reason is nearly useless. It should provoke you to think, "well, why?"
This isn't freshman English class, where the teacher tries to ask leading questions to challenge you to formulate an opinion. This is a place where we are mutually experienced and have well-formed opinions already. We trade those opinions with each other, for the benefit of learning from each other. Knowing your thought process or perspective or experience benefits me (for example, your experience with Hamlets does provide value).

Knowing only that you disagree with someone provides no value to anyone reading. I could try and figure out your thought process on my own, but a) you could just tell me b) if I were capable of putting together a credible disagreement on my own, I would have done so already when I read the post you disagreed with. I'm a critical reader, I judge what I read. To say that your unaugmented disagreement adds value, implies that without your intervention it would not have occurred to me that someone might be wrong on the internet.

Not that you have an obligation to spend your time edifying me. But if you're already spending your time typing, a disagreement of opinions provides little value.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2013, 07:43:33 pm »
+10

He is exactly the kind of poster this community should respect.
How can one expect to be respected if he doesn't show respect towards others?

To be concise: memes, scout jokes, and it depends on the board.
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ftl

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2013, 08:02:42 pm »
+9

I approve of the title change, btw. Well played.
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dondon151

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2013, 09:21:04 pm »
0

Knowing your thought process or perspective or experience benefits me (for example, your experience with Hamlets does provide value).

A fair point, but "my experience disagrees with yours" isn't any more valuable than "I disagree."
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2013, 10:03:11 pm »
+8

If charm was required, who would ever listen to Wandering Winder?
This kind of thing (the meme as well) is significantly worse than the other things going around here.
What's less charming, someone who's a huge windbag, or someone who calls everyone else a **** for being too long or short or whatever?
I don't know if charm is the word I would use, but something like civility is definitely something which is perhaps not 'required' in a technical sense, but more than that in a human one. Have some respect for other people as people.
It isn't mean to disagree with someone. It's an entirely different can of worms to attack them personally (by calling them stupid, or saying they're lacking in some character trait, what have you). Generally, it's nice to bring evidence, but this isn't really the point. "You're stupid and I can prove it," or "You're a jerk and I can prove it" are both worse than "Your idea is wrong" or "Your comment was uncivil", even if there is evidence in the former case and no evidence in the latter.

If you can't take being disagreed with, you should be seeking help about that, because lots of people are going to disagree with you. You also shouldn't be on internet forums. However, there is nothing which gives yo right to attack or insult another person, regardless of whether they are right or wrong, nice or mean, etc.

tl;dr Hate the sin (you can even call it out sometimes), not the sinner


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Quote
As for post length, there's certainly  value in concision, but there's far more value in substance. I value your posts because you have something to say and you say it concisely; WW's irritate me because he has something to say but he takes a whole forum page to say it; and dondon151's are nearly useless because he rarely actually says anything more than "I disagree."

I like a lot of Mic Q's posts. I like a lot of dondon's posts, too, though there are times where I wish he would elaborate. Indeed, though, they are far from useless even when he is largely saying he disagrees, and he most often does give more than this. And as for mine... go look at my last 100 posts and your last 100 posts and see who goes on longer about points on average.

ragingduckd

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2013, 10:26:27 pm »
+4

If charm was required, who would ever listen to Wandering Winder?
This kind of thing (the meme as well) is significantly worse than the other things going around here.
What's less charming, someone who's a huge windbag, or someone who calls everyone else a **** for being too long or short or whatever?

You're quite right, WW. My apologies.
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Robz888

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2013, 10:40:06 pm »
+11

Hey all. So, I have some thoughts on this. As is often the case, I think everyone has an understandable point, but is somewhat wrong--as is often the case in arguments!

I do understand the sentiment behind duck's post. While jokes and one-liners are fun, and we should definitely have them, we don't want to disincentivize serious Dominion analysis (I know, I know, says the guy who gets rich off Scout memes). And a one-liner, slightly dismissive in tone, as the first post after the analysis... well, it's just a tad off-putting. Not deliberately of course. Again, as is often the case, dondon seems to not have realized it could be taken that way, and didn't mean to be dismissive. I think if it had not been the first reply, or if it had been prefaced with "nice work, but..." and then followed with a  ;D it would have come off totally different. Which is not to say, "This is how you must post" at ALL, just like an example.

So, while I understand why duck was perturbed, I do think his meme is a bit of an overreaction to that, and could create additional hurt feelings. So, too, his throwaway line about WW. And again, if I'm taking duck's sentiment here and giving the more polite version, I think he's saying that WW tends to come off authoritatively. I think many of us--most of us?--believe this authority is considerably well earned. I do also believe that WW is actually incredibly humble... if you watch his videos, he is quick to point out flaws in his own strategy and doesn't automatially attirbute his losses to shuffle luck. He also doesn't rage when he gets bad luck. Really, I do think he's a brilliant and classy Dominion player. But, you know, everyone can come off at times less polished than they intend to, because it's the internet, so while I understand what might cause duck to say this, I do think he went too far But, hey, he apologized--great.

I am a moderator of the Forum Games sub-forum, and I think a lot of the lessons we've learned playing mafia with civility are applicable here. I even wrote a Civility Pledge, which I invite everyone to check out: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695.0

The most important thing--and this is important here, and for all forum interactions--is to assume the best intentions of the other person. That's it. If you do that, hopefully, you can stop yourself from escalating, either inadvertently or deliberately.

I think these discussions are worthwhile to have--arguing on the internet is much different than real life, because tone is so hard to convey. And we've never met each other, we can't learn from each other's social cues. Like Eevee, for instance, I have met. We hung out for a few days earlier this year. So, when he PMs me, "You are so wrong about Adventurer, it's not that bad!" I can answer back, "Eevee, are all Finnish so misguided, or just the Electric-types?" and it's not offensive because we have this real life knowledge of each other. With people you've never met, more caution is necessary, and again, assume the best intentions of the other person.
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Kirian

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2013, 10:52:24 pm »
+13

So if you're a charmer and you're really good at Dominion (i.e. ragingduckd) its works out swell for everyone. But if you aren't a charmer and you're really good at Dominion (dondon in this case) you get the shaft and people ignore you for the wrong reasons. Fortunately, I don't think we have any community members who are charmers but suck at Dominion. But what do we do if, hypothetically, these two disagree on a point of Dominion strategy?

Hey now, you forgot the fourth category, people with no charm and who suck at Dominion.  Like that Kirian asshole.
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popsofctown

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2013, 11:09:40 pm »
+6

I think WW is charming.

We need some more charmers that suck at Dominion though.  For variety's sake.  Some poor guy that thinks his Stables+Coppersmith deck is good.  And you just hate to tell him it's not.
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Witherweaver

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2013, 11:10:20 pm »
0

So what is the formula for the politeness factor (or charm) of a poster based on thread size, use of memes, tone, and transparency of thought process behind the post?
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Polk5440

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2013, 11:15:05 pm »
+2

The most important thing--and this is important here, and for all forum interactions--is to assume the best intentions of the other person. That's it. If you do that, hopefully, you can stop yourself from escalating, either inadvertently or deliberately.

"Assume the best intentions" is a good rule -- especially on a forum where text cannot be given tone or intent as readily as speech.

But I'm also for calling out uncivil discourse, too (and have done so on this forum -- maybe also a little too harshly sometimes). Civility norms are good for a community, but they do cut both ways.

I'm just glad this thread cooled down; I was afraid it was on the verge of heading to RSP and taking that nice little induction proof with it!

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ragingduckd

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2013, 11:15:58 pm »
+1

And again, if I'm taking duck's sentiment here and giving the more polite version, I think he's saying that WW tends to come off authoritatively.

Man, what a terrible post that was. No, I neither think that WW comes off as authoritative, nor would it bug me if he did... he is an authority here. I named WW only as a counter-example to Mic Q's argument, since WW gets his ideas accepted by having good ideas rather than by pandering to the crowd.

I phrased that argument very poorly and without considering WW's feelings at all. I don't know how I persuaded myself that my post wouldn't offend, but I didn't actually mean WW any offense.
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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2013, 11:37:28 pm »
+6

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2013, 12:19:04 am »
0

3 pages into this and no "Decline of Civility...etc." mention yet?
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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2013, 12:20:53 am »
+6

Decline of Civility...etc.
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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2013, 12:54:00 am »
0

I think WW is charming.

We need some more charmers that suck at Dominion though.  For variety's sake.  Some poor guy that thinks his Stables+Coppersmith deck is good.  And you just hate to tell him it's not.

Hey, some of the people at the forum games that don't play dominion would count.
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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2013, 02:24:33 am »
+13

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2013, 02:26:55 am »
+3



And then regenerates into something positive and helpful. Lemons, lemonade, etc.
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popsofctown

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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2013, 02:44:37 am »
+2



And then regenerates into something positive and helpful. Lemons, lemonade, etc.
You still have to tap it and remove it from combat, it won't be very helpful until next turn.
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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2013, 06:35:11 am »
+1

I like dondon's style. Just saying.
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Re: The Mathematics of Venture Chaining AND The Sociology of Internet Forums
« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2013, 09:47:33 am »
+8

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