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Author Topic: Difficult Power Cards Kingdom  (Read 4505 times)

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Schneau

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Difficult Power Cards Kingdom
« on: August 10, 2013, 03:10:34 pm »
+4

Here's a game that I started playing yesterday, but had to quit after my video driver crashed (I know, lame excuse, right?). Here's the kingdom:




This board seems to be stuffed with power cards, and I had a hard time deciding which way to go. Ambassador seems to be strongly countered by Apothecary and Hermit, as well as Lighthouse, which also counters Mountebank. Tournament is probably strong. I have no idea if Procession, Apprentice, or Duke are playable here, and even lowly Workshop seems like it could be used for good.

I decided to delay Ambassador and opened Hermit/Potion to head straight for Apothecary. I picked up a bunch of Lighthouses and then an Ambassador, which may have been a mistake. I often have the problem of trying to buy every card in the kingdom, and I think I did that a bit here. But, I really lost the game on turn 10, when I had enough for a Province but passed 2 Coppers instead of 1 with Ambassador, and then frustratedly bought a Procession.

So, what would you open here, and with what strategy? My opponent opened Ambassador/Tournament, and seemed to be doing better by the time I quit.
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gman314

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Re: Difficult Power Cards Kingdom
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2013, 07:02:30 pm »
0

Well, obviously you can't do everything, especially because there are no Villages. I'm with you in the Apothecary/Hermit camp; it seems quite strong. You can use Hermit to pick up a few Lighthouses if your opponent gets Ambassador or Mountebank, but not too many. You probably can add a Tournament to this deck fairly easily to get some Prizes (Trusty Steed would be very useful, as you plan to be drawing lots of stuff with no village.) This strategy doesn't want an Ambassador, but can pick up a Mountebank if your opponent doesn't get Ambassador.

Ambassador/Tournament is one of the more straightforward strategies here. This would probably be quite strong, but that's not really the kind of strategy I typically play, so I can't really theorize more on it.

Mountebank I don't think is all that great here, because of Ambassador and Lighthouse. Procession also seems a little weak here. My first thought is to use it on Lighthouse and Tournament cards to play multiple terminals, but that's really not sustainable, and you want those cards. Apprentice isn't really great here because you can't easily get lots of expensive fodder. But even so, it can be quite useful. Duke would basically be something like a Mountebank/Duke strategy, with maybe a bit of Hermit or Workshop gaining Silver. I don't really like it myself.
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DG

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Re: Difficult Power Cards Kingdom
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2013, 07:28:51 pm »
+1

Ambassador/tournament is strong and unless you can fight back it will beat you up. It will be stronger than an expanding duchy/duke deck because uncontested tournament prizes will sustain the buyout of the provinces. It is likely to be stronger than an apothecary/hermit/lighthouse deck because the tournament+province pairs will work in favor of the compact ambassador deck.
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ragingduckd

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Re: Difficult Power Cards Kingdom
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2013, 07:43:48 pm »
+7

Here's a game that I started playing yesterday, but had to quit after my video driver crashed (I know, lame excuse, right?). Here's the kingdom:




This board seems to be stuffed with power cards, and I had a hard time deciding which way to go. Ambassador seems to be strongly countered by Apothecary and Hermit, as well as Lighthouse, which also counters Mountebank. Tournament is probably strong. I have no idea if Procession, Apprentice, or Duke are playable here, and even lowly Workshop seems like it could be used for good.

I decided to delay Ambassador and opened Hermit/Potion to head straight for Apothecary. I picked up a bunch of Lighthouses and then an Ambassador, which may have been a mistake. I often have the problem of trying to buy every card in the kingdom, and I think I did that a bit here. But, I really lost the game on turn 10, when I had enough for a Province but passed 2 Coppers instead of 1 with Ambassador, and then frustratedly bought a Procession.

So, what would you open here, and with what strategy? My opponent opened Ambassador/Tournament, and seemed to be doing better by the time I quit.

This is a very interesting kingdom! I'm glad you posted it. Here's my thought process:
  • Ambassador and Duke are game-defining cards. Both provide alternative ways to win and both tend to lengthen the game.
  • Tournament is almost never ignorable. My strategy should almost certainly incorporate it.
  • Ambassador and MB are strong attacks, but there's also Lighthouse and no village other than Trusty Steed.
  • Both Procession and Apothecary lack support. No strong cantrip/draw chain for Procession and no buys/sifting for Apothecary.
  • Tourney-Apprentice is an amazing combo.
This isn't a great kingdom for an Apothecary strategy. Apothecary really likes to have a +buy for those early $6P hands, and it's nice to have some cantrips and sifting to keep the non-Coppers from piling up. It's a reasonable soft counter to Ambassador or Mountebank, but with Lighthouse and no villages those attacks aren't at their best anyway. But the most important thing is that Duke kills Apothecary dead. If your opponent just buys Duchies and Dukes, Apothecary will never get all 8 Provinces in time all by itself.

So really I'm only considering a Tourney-based strategy or a Duchy-Duke slog. I've had some good results using a treasure gainer in support of Duchy-Duke, and Hermit will do as the gainer in a pinch. But Tourney-Apprentice is an amazing combo, particularly if you can get there with a slim deck. You can trash to draw a Tourney-Province combo, and you can gain a Duchy or a Gold (from Bag of Gold) and trash it to Apprentice for a net +4 cards. The prizes and Apprentice provide enormous flexibility in the mid and late-game, particularly on a board like this where Princess in the only +buy and Trusty Steed is the only Village.

I expect Tourney-Apprentice to crush Duchy-Duke. I also expect it to beat Apothecary and anything based on Ambassador or Mountebank. So my only real question is how to get there.

Tourney-Ambassador is one of the strongest opens in the game, and it works great with my long-term goal. Lighthouse weakens Ambassador, but it strengthens it too, as I'll have some early $2 hands after returning with Ambassador. The other plausible approach is to open Apothecary and transition to Tourney-Apprentice, but those cards have conflicting goals. Apothecary wants Copper while Tourney-Apprentice wants a slim deck. This approach may gain the first prize or two, but in the long run you'll have a bloated deck where you can't make much use of the Tourney-Apprentice combo.

So I'd open Tourney-Ambassador and focus on slimming aggressively. Early on I mostly want to buy Tournaments, but I'll settle for a lighthouse if it means I can Ambassador away an extra Copper. When I get to $6, I'll probably pick up a single Gold. After that it'll be all Apprentices, Tournaments and Provinces.

Tourney-Apprentice is really flexible, so it's hard to be too precise about how to play it. Trashing gained Duchies and Gold is huge, as is playing Followers every turn. You can gain Duchies and go Duchy-Duke if your opponent is gaining Provinces with a fast Apothecary deck, and you can be all but certain of playing a Lighthouse every turn if your opponent has gone for Mountebanks. If your opponent mirrors, then things are going to get pretty crazy and the best strategy is going to depend in large part on who got which prizes.

For an example of Tourney-Apprentice at work, check out this game where Davio beat my Apprentice-Market Square with it. He did a whole lot of stuff like "trash a Gold to Apprentice, Tourney revealing Apprentice gaining Duchy, trash Duchy to Apprentice, Trusty Steed, Followers, etc." Optimal Tourney-Apprentice play will vary by kingdom, of course, but being able to play 2-3 prizes every turn is always going to be a huge deal.

---

As for your actual game, I agree with your diagnosis of buy-every-card-itis. There's really no role for Procession here, and Ambassador + Hermit + Mountebank is too many early terminals for an Apoth deck. I know you're thinking about clearing out your Estates, but exchanging 3 Estates for for 4 Lighthouses isn't really a big gain for Apothecary. Better to hold out until you can trash them with Apprentice.

IMO, keeping focus is one of the most important skills in Dominion, perhaps even more important than finding the right strategy in the first place. It's often better to play a mediocre plan consistently than to play a schizophrenic strategy.

Apothecary may not be best here, but once you've committed to it, you'd better just forget about Ambassador and most other terminals. If I were writing a bot to play an Apoth-centered strategy, I'd give it the buy order Apprentice > Apoth > Tournament > Lighthouse > Nothing. Mountebank and Ambassador are strong cards, but don't feel obliged to buy them for that reason alone.
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Polk5440

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Re: Difficult Power Cards Kingdom
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2013, 09:48:44 pm »
0

This is really tough. Trusty Steed and Princess are important prizes here. I am going to be a contrarian and say I would definitely include Hermit to get to Tournament-Apprentice.

I would really consider Hermit-Ambassador as an opener. Hermit trashes Estates and become Madman, which serves the same end goal as Apprentice: get a large hand and win that Tournament. It also doesn't sit around in your deck like a second Ambassador would. It clears out Estates a little better Ambassador, too. Gaining a Lighthouse or two from Hermit or another Hermit would be good, too.

I am not too worried about not opening Tournament as long as I can pick up a couple before drawing a large hand (via Madman or Apprentice). Clearing out your deck is more important.
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Schneau

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Re: Difficult Power Cards Kingdom
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2013, 09:56:55 pm »
0

...

Thanks for your thoughtful post! I spend more time reading F.DS than playing Dominion these days, and have better knowledge of card and combos but worse strategy and tactics because of it. It's great to hear detailed thoughts about a kingdom like this!
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dondon151

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Re: Difficult Power Cards Kingdom
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2013, 10:13:01 pm »
0

Tournament-Apprentice is not a bigger thing than MS-Apprentice. You (AI) could just as well have done Tournament-MS-Apprentice and probably could have gotten rolling faster.
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Destierro

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Re: Difficult Power Cards Kingdom
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2013, 11:47:49 pm »
0

Tournament-Apprentice is not a bigger thing than MS-Apprentice. You (AI) could just as well have done Tournament-MS-Apprentice and probably could have gotten rolling faster.

What are you talking about here when you say MS? I am aware of the fact that Market Square / Apprentice is a strong combo, but Market Square is not in this kingdom.

On the board, wow. One option is to get a thin deck, get to $8, and start winning prizes. I think that a tournament ambassador opening does just that. Lighthouse is a great pickup on those $2 ambassador hands, as it blocks junking and helps get to $8. Duchy/duke countering all the ambassador coppers wouldn't work, as the engine player could start throwing estates or curses. Duchy/duke also has no real supporting cards, and the only option would be mountebank D/d. I feel that the engine is the clear way to go.
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dondon151

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Re: Difficult Power Cards Kingdom
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2013, 12:19:01 am »
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What are you talking about here when you say MS? I am aware of the fact that Market Square / Apprentice is a strong combo, but Market Square is not in this kingdom.

He posted an example game against Davio with Tournament, MS, and Apprentice.
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Kirian

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Re: Difficult Power Cards Kingdom
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2013, 12:18:29 pm »
0

I'm having trouble accepting anything but Amb/Tournament as the way to go here.  It was the #2 best opening on Council Room (which, granted, didn't include Hermit and Procession).  Hermit can't get rid of Coppers; Amb is going to be better for thinning your deck, and still allows you to pick up Lighthouses.  No because of Lighthouse, Amb won't be a nasty attack, but it's going to be so very powerful to thin your deck, especially with support from Tournament.

Meanwhile, the only +Buy is Princess; you need to get those Tournaments together with Provinces ASAP and, again, Amb with Lighthouse support is going to make that much easier.

I think Princess is the first Prize to take here, but I might be wrong.
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luser

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Re: Difficult Power Cards Kingdom
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2014, 08:18:02 pm »
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I'm having trouble accepting anything but Amb/Tournament as the way to go here.  It was the #2 best opening on Council Room (which, granted, didn't include Hermit and Procession).  Hermit can't get rid of Coppers; Amb is going to be better for thinning your deck, and still allows you to pick up Lighthouses.  No because of Lighthouse, Amb won't be a nasty attack, but it's going to be so very powerful to thin your deck, especially with support from Tournament.

Meanwhile, the only +Buy is Princess; you need to get those Tournaments together with Provinces ASAP and, again, Amb with Lighthouse support is going to make that much easier.

I think Princess is the first Prize to take here, but I might be wrong.

As this kingdom goes ambassador/tournament is too slow here. apothecary-madman will just outrace him, hermit will trash estates, and with apothecary it will get  province by turn 8 and as apothecary+madman=draw your deck he could claim prices on each next turn.
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