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Author Topic: Maximum points  (Read 10232 times)

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eHalcyon

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2013, 10:18:55 pm »
0

@faust -- Forgot about that Baker coin token -- good call!

@SCSN -- Interesting point about Hermit gaining Madman.  It may also apply to BV, as you point out.  There may be other cards where it matters as well -- Cache and Death Cart come to mind.  Some of this can be played around by gaining certain things first.  For example, if all the Copper have already been purchased, Cache can be safely gained.  Likewise for Ruins and Death Cart. 

Actually, this is probably better dealt with using Trader.  Then your 2 empty piles can be Goons and Silver and you don't have to worry about emptying Copper or Ruins.  The same goes for Border Village!  Buy BV, choose to gain X, reveal Trader to gain Silver instead, but all Silver are gone.  And I think this trick works with Hermit too!

Any other cards where this matters?  Any cards that can't be solved with Trader?




Earlier I said that Possession should be banned, but I guess it doesn't.  Self-possessing would allow you to trash things with Bishop without acually trashing them, but Bishop itself needs to be banned so Possession can be allowed back in.

Trader + Goons is banned, you can keep on buying cards and use trader.

Whoooops, I am dumb.  Forgot about that.



So yeahhhh, you can make it work for one card (e.g. empty Coppers, buy Cache) but probably not more than that.  Since you're buying Cache/Death Cart/BV/Hermit from the BM, you can't empty those piles first.  And as for Hermit/Madman, you can't gain the Madman unless you buy nothing so you definitely wouldn't be doing that on your last turn anyway, because you'd want to be emptying every pile with Goons.
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StrongRhino

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2013, 11:55:48 pm »
+2

All of which of course leads to the next question: Assuming perfect shuffle luck, what is the minimum number of turns to get to 8424 victory points on this board?
CC, can you hear us? It is we, the puzzlers on f.DS. Please help us CC.
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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2013, 12:47:15 am »
+29

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faust

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2013, 09:29:12 am »
+1

I edited my post to correct the errors pointed out by SCSN and eHalcyon. Now you only gain a single Madman (necessary for Fairgrounds). Including or not including Border Village actually doesn't make a difference - if it's in there, you have to gain one card that you thus can't buy, but if it's not in, there's one card less to buy anyway. Including it ups Fairgrounds.

As for Death Cart and Cache - you have to buy them before three piles are empty, as they're Black Market buys. So you could buy out ruins and leave a single Copper (the Goons pile is already empty, so Coppers can't be out). Including or not including Cache makes no difference in terms of buys then, and it's good for the Fairgrounds.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2013, 12:29:30 pm »
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Using Scheme you can get all ten Madmen without losing your Hermit.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2013, 12:32:38 pm »
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Using Scheme you can get all ten Madmen without losing your Hermit.

The reason not to do that is playing Hermit gains a card, which means one less card you can buy with Goons.  One Madman can earn 0.43 VP via Vineyards and Gardens, which is far less than the 10VP you can earn by buying the card that Hermit would have gained with 10 Goons in play.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2013, 04:12:00 pm »
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Right, that is an excellent point.  It is possibly worth doing once if it brings up the value of Fairgrounds.
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SCSN

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2013, 04:15:53 pm »
0

Using Scheme you can get all ten Madmen without losing your Hermit.

You can't. Scheme only allows you to put cards back on top that you have in play, so you can't put back a trashed Hermit, a Pillage or a Feast.
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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2013, 04:57:19 pm »
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Using Scheme you can get all ten Madmen without losing your Hermit.

You can't. Scheme only allows you to put cards back on top that you have in play, so you can't put back a trashed Hermit, a Pillage or a Feast.
That's not what goko does. You can topdeck a scheme and get a madman. i think donald said that somewhere too...
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SirPeebles

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2013, 05:24:10 pm »
0

Using Scheme you can get all ten Madmen without losing your Hermit.

You can't. Scheme only allows you to put cards back on top that you have in play, so you can't put back a trashed Hermit, a Pillage or a Feast.

You just need to choose to topdeck Hermit before trashing Hermit.
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sudgy

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2013, 06:10:13 pm »
+1

Using Scheme you can get all ten Madmen without losing your Hermit.

You can't. Scheme only allows you to put cards back on top that you have in play, so you can't put back a trashed Hermit, a Pillage or a Feast.

"When you discard this from play" is what it says on Hermit and Scheme.  You choose which to do first, so if you choose to put the Hermit on top before you trash it, the Hermit has lost track of itself.  But it still gains the Madman.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

GendoIkari

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2013, 09:11:59 am »
0

This has been discussed at great length more than once... not since Guilds (or maybe even Dark Ages) was released... but even back then it was pretty much determined that the complexity is far too great to calculate. Even without Victory Tokens; just with green cards, people were not about to find a definite maximum number, just some large lower bounds. So add in Victory Tokens, Coin Tokens, other new cards.... you are dealing with a very large number of calculations and permutations, that will result in a very, very large number of possible points.
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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2013, 09:03:33 pm »
+1

Well done. One minor error: you don't want to gain any Madman since playing Hermit forces you to gain a card from the supply, which costs you 10VP as it's one card less you can buy with all Goons in play. For the same reason I don't think you want to gain Border Village from the BM, unless it's really necessary to up Fairgrounds.
We just need to reduce its cost to zero before we buy it.  We've got Quarry, Highway, Bridge, and Princess, we should be set.

It seems wrong to include Black Market and implement it in a, strictly speaking, variant way.  Really you can't include it because the rules for Black market say a Bishop needs to be available.

Am I being a killjoy?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 09:07:26 pm by popsofctown »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2013, 09:19:30 pm »
0

Fortunately for those who do not have Prosperity, Black Market does not require Bishop.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2013, 09:21:05 pm »
+1

I thought the rules for BM allowed you to set it up however you want.  OK, the card itself suggests one of each Kingdom card not in the supply, but I don't think that is a strict instruction.  If I don't have every expansion, I could not create a BM that satisfied that instruction.  Am I now playing a variant?

The official BM FAQ says this:

Quote
To use the Black Market Kingdom card, you must create a Black Market deck before starting the game. The Black Market deck is made up of Kingdom cards that are not in the Supply of the current game. The players should agree before the game which cards will be used to create the Black Market deck (for example, you could agree to use one of every Kingdom card you own that is not a part of the Supply).


Probably more Variant-like is including all 10 Knights in the BM, because the official Knight FAQ says this:

Quote
If you choose to use the Knights with Black MarketBlack Market.jpg (a promotional card), put a Knight directly into the Black Market deck, rather than using the randomizer card.

But you could invoke the BM FAQ that says you can choose the deck composition however you want, where you choose to include all 10.  :P


Source for the quotes is the DS Wiki, and presumably their sources are the official manuals.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2013, 09:31:48 pm »
0

Originally, Donald used his randomizer deck for Black Market.  After selecting ten random cards for the kingdom, the remaining randomizer deck was the Black Market deck.  However, there is no rule that says your randomizer deck must contain all published kingdom cards.  Thus I believe that the implementation closest to Donald's original (although by no means official), is to first choose which cards are in your randomizer deck (e.g. I brought two promos, Intrigue, Prosperity, and Cornucopia, but Susan hates Tournament so that one is out...) and then any cards not chosen for the kingdom will be in the BM deck.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2013, 09:34:59 pm »
0

Originally, Donald used his randomizer deck for Black Market.  After selecting ten random cards for the kingdom, the remaining randomizer deck was the Black Market deck.  However, there is no rule that says your randomizer deck must contain all published kingdom cards.  Thus I believe that the implementation closest to Donald's original (although by no means official), is to first choose which cards are in your randomizer deck (e.g. I brought two promos, Intrigue, Prosperity, and Cornucopia, but Susan hates Tournament so that one is out...) and then any cards not chosen for the kingdom will be in the BM deck.

Like you said, original is not official.  Also, if you do it this way, you really can't include all 10 Knights in the BM.
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TheInfestation

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2013, 12:23:21 pm »
0

Correct me if I am wrong, isn't the AI programmed to not buy a card that would end the game with a loss for the bot? With that logic, and you have a 5 card hand of Kings Court, Kings Court, Masquerade, Monument, Monument allow for an unlimited amount of points to be gained?

I imagine you would want to pin your opponent with KC, KC and a card that brings their handsize to 3, aka possibly with goons. Then switch to Monuments and keep the opponents hand size at 0-1, then the ai would buy all copper until there was none left, then do nothing
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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2013, 12:24:43 pm »
0

Correct me if I am wrong, isn't the AI programmed to not buy a card that would end the game with a loss for the bot? With that logic, and you have a 5 card hand of Kings Court, Kings Court, Masquerade, Monument, Monument allow for an unlimited amount of points to be gained?

I imagine you would want to pin your opponent with KC, KC and a card that brings their handsize to 3, aka possibly with goons. Then switch to Monuments and keep the opponents hand size at 0-1, then the ai would buy all copper until there was none left, then do nothing

This is trying to figure out the maximum number of points where you can't get points infinitely, so monument can't be in the solution.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

pitythefool

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2019, 06:42:05 pm »
+4

Alright, easier definition (suggested by SirPeebles): Among kingdoms with an upper bound on available VP, what is the highest attainable score?

Old theme, but new cards!

Kingdom:
   Platinum/Colony, no Shelters

   Ferry
   Inheritance
   Travelling Fair
   Capitalism
   Lost Arts

   (The last three Events are not a necessity, but they speed things up considerably.)

   Young Witch
   Native Village (bane)
   Goons
   Band Of Misfits
   Overlord
   Page/Travellers
   Peasant/Travellers
   Scrying Pool
   Count
   Cultist/Ruins
   Rats


Steps:

Buy Ferry for Goons.  Goons now has a price of 4 and can be selected by Band Of Misfits, Overlord, and Inheritance.
Buy a Goons.
Buy a Native Village.
Use Native Village to transfer cards to the mat until they can be pulled in for a 7 coin buy.  Buy Inheritance for Goons.  Our 3 starting Estates are now Goons.
Buy Capitalism.  Goons and Estates can now be played without actions in the buy phase.
Buy a Page.

We will cycle the Page to a Champion.  Only play Treasure Hunter and exchange to Warrior after a turn which did not gain a card;  we don't want to gain any Silver.  When playing Hero, we are forced to gain a treasure; pick Potion.  We will only obtain 1 Champion.  That Potion, along with the Goons set aside for Inheritance will be the only two cards in the entire kingdom that we will not purchase.  When we get around to buying the other travellers, we will do the maximum exchanges on the other Pages, up to Hero.  Since Pages get returned to the supply, buying the last Page will be the 26th purchase.  We will also do the maximum number of exchanges on Peasants.  That pile therefore represents 30 purchases.  I will mention that it is possible to play an Overlord (or BoM or Inherited Estate) as a Page.  And when it is exchanged, the Overlord is returned to the Overlord supply pile, not the Page pile.  This does not allow any unbounded purchasing, as the number of possible exchanges is still bounded by a small fixed number.  It is disadvantageous to do this.

While cycling for our Champion, buy Estates (but don't empty the pile), buy a Count, buy Lost Arts for Count.
Start moving all Copper to the Native Village mat one at a time by using Count to topdeck, followed by Native Village.
After the Potion is gained, buy 2 Scrying Pools, then move the Potion to the Native Village mat.

After the Champion is in place, play proceeds as follows:
Play Scrying Pool, draw entire deck.
Play Count, topdeck a Scrying Pool (for next turn).
Play all Goons, Estates (Goons), Band of Misfits as Goons, Overlords as Goons.
Buy more actions.
Repeat.

After buying all but one Estate, buy all but one Goons. (One must remain for enabling BoM and Overlord).  Then you can empty the Band of Misfits and Overloard piles.  You should not empty any more piles until the last turn.
Next, buy 4 more Counts and 3 more Native Villages.
Now we continue to buy all the actions we can, but also start buying non-action cards.  We will be limited to buying four per turn.  First buy Travelling Fair, then we can topdeck the non-action cards, draw them into our hand for the next turn, use Counts and Native Villages to transfer them to the mat.
Priority on non-action cards should be 7 more Potions, then the Platinum, Gold, Silver.
Priority on action cards should be Page and Peasant to start the long exchange cycles.
When we gain Teachers, we might as well benefit:  +1 coin to Band of Misfits, +1 buy to Overlords.

There is no need to buy any Colonies, Provinces, Duchies, or Copper by using this relatively slow method.
After all but one Platinum, Gold, Silver remain, and only one card in each of the kingdom piles remain (excepting the 8 Scrying Pools), we can jump right to the last turn.

Play Scrying Pool, draw deck.
Play all 9 Counts, topdecking actions and gaining +3 coins each.
Play the second Scrying Pool to redraw the topdecked actions.
(We may not need those actions, but Scrying Pool is an attack card.)
Play all 38 Goons variants as usual.
Play all 9 Groundskeepers.
Play all 9 Peasants for +buys, +coins.
Play all 5 Warriors.  Does nothing, but they are attack cards.
Play Abandoned Mines.
Play all 5 Soldiers (this generates 245 coins!)
Play a Native Village, pull in all of the cards from the mat.
Play all of the Patinum, Gold, Silver, Copper, and Potions you have.
You have enough coin to buy all of the Duchies, Provinces, Colonies, Copper, and all other remaining cards.
You have only 57 buys and there are 92 cards left, but there is sufficent money to buy Travelling Fair as needed for the extra buys.

Scoring analysis:

   8 Colony - 80 VP
   8 Province - 48 VP
   8 Duchy - 24 VP
   11 Estates - 11 VP
   10 Curses - -10 VP

80 + 48 + 24 + 11 - 10 = 153 VP

9 Groundskeepers * 25 victory cards gained (only 1 Estate is counted) = 225 VP

Number of each card (out of total in kingdom) purchased with 38 effective Goons in play.
 
   Copper - 46 of 53
   Silver - 40
   Gold - 30
   Platinum - 12
   Potion - 15 of 16
   Colony - 8
   Province - 8
   Duchy - 8
   Estate - 1 of 11
   Curses - 10
   Peasant/Travellers - 30
   Page/Travellers - 25 of 26
   Cultist/Ruins - 20
   Rats - 20
   Young Witch - 10
   Goons - 1 of 10
   Band of Misfits - 0 of 10
   Overlord - 0 of 10
   Native Village - 9 of 10
   Scrying Pool - 8 of 10
   Count - 9 of 10

463 cards * 76 VP each = 35,188 VP

Ignoring the not insubstantial VP earned while buying the cards for the engine (over a thousand), we end up with a total of 35,188 + 225 + 153 = 35,566 VP

Any of the following Landmarks would add some VP, noted in parentheses:

   Tower (281)
   Palace (90)
   Museum (76)
   Orchard (76)
   Keep (75)
   Obelisk (40)
   Triumphal Arch (30)
   Defiled Shrine (22)
   Aqueduct (16)
   Fountain (15)
   Arena (12)
   Basilica (12)
   Baths (12)
   Battlefield (12)
   Colonnade (12)
   Labyrinth (12)
   Mountain Pass (eight)

Final note:  I expected Vineyards to be one of the final kingdom piles.  With Groundskeepers being played and all of the action cards gained, I expected 8 Vineyards to beat out a pile of 10 action cards.  And it does.  But it does not beat out a pile with 20 cards, hence Rats wins.

An obvious way to increase the score would be to add a Black Market deck, but I'll leave that to someone else.

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MeNowDealWithIt

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2019, 10:59:28 am »
0

Tower.
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MeNowDealWithIt

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2019, 11:01:50 am »
0

Other landmarks too.
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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2019, 05:15:09 pm »
0

The exhaustive, and large, solution above has been broken by the changes to Command cards. You can now only have 10 Goons in-play effects.
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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2019, 05:50:10 pm »
+1

I think Triumph and Conquest are very important point sources to consider. Triumph can get a lot of points per buy, but the real winner here is probably Conquest, as it is only limited by our money+buys.

The best way I can think of to get lots, but not infinite money, is with Priest/Fortress/Watchtower and Travelling Fair. In our action phase, we can play a lot of Priests on Fortress, and then also buy everything with Watchtower in hand to get money for every card left in the supply.

At the very least, we can play 66 Priests in a turn with 10 King's Courts, 10 Band of Misfits, 9 Priests, and 9 Scepters (on Priest). (And we could definitely get more with Overlords and Throne Rooms and Captains). Let's say we can play X Priests. The first Priest gives 2 coin, then the next gives 4 coin, and so on, for a sum of 2+4+6+...+2X = X*(X+1) coin, and every card we trash will give us 2X more coin. Every card remaining in the supply will give us a net of 2X-(2+(its base cost)) coin, to buy Travelling Fair and then the card (then trashing to Watchtower). To get a quick lower bound, let's just say each card we buy gives us at least 66*2-12=120 coin. (Colony would only give 119 coin, but it's more than balanced out by all the other cheaper cards.)

If we buy 10 Curse, 46 Coppers, 40 Silvers, 30 Gold, 16 Potion, 12 Platinum, 8 Duchy, 8 Province, 8 Colony, that is 178 cards giving at least 120 coins each for 21360 coin. Add that to the 66*67 to get 25782 coin. With that, we could buy floor(25782/8) Conquests, or 3222 of them. Each one is worth 40 points, giving at least 128880 VP.

I didn't include Estate in the above since we'll likely want to Inheritance them for Priest.

One nice thing about the errata relating to command cards is that all the cards calling Priest can get the benefit of the tokens. With the +buy and +coin token, we would effectively get 3 extra money per Priest we play, as the buy is effectively 2 coins here. And we probably won't need to worry about +Actions with the +action token.

Some other things to consider in such a setup:
  • I realized I forgot to about Ruins and Young Witch in the kingdom.
  • We might not want the travellers, since we only care about the number of cards we can gain/trash in a single turn.
  • By including Sinister Plot, we can buy cards in any order we want during our setup and not worry about draw, by just waiting enough turns in between.
  • The most important things are playing as many Priests as humanly possible and trashing as many cards as humanly possible, but there is some balance, as every card we play is a card we don't get to trash. Besides cards that play Priest as many times as possible, other cards to consider are Bridge, Forge, and Count, the latter two being used to trash 9 or 10 Fortresses each.
  • Is Fortune worth it? We lose the ability to buy some cards on the last turn, but can double our money (if we also include Villa).
  • Bonfire.
  • Procession, and possibly Procession + Lurker. Gaining from the trash definitely pushes us into possibly infinite point territory, but Lurker can't gain Silver from the trash, so this wouldn't bring us to infinite by itself. With Bonfire and Villa in the mix, this definitely gets more concerning though.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 06:14:16 pm by bitwise »
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crj

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Re: Maximum points
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2019, 06:15:21 pm »
0

The best way I can think of to get lots, but not infinite money[...]
I don't see any reason infinite money is a no-no, here, provided there's no way to convert it into an infinite number of VP?
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