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Author Topic: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.  (Read 4186 times)

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SirPeebles

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Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« on: August 05, 2013, 02:08:36 pm »
+2

In another thread we were discussing other deck builders.  I mentioned that one nice feature of Dominion is that greening clogs your deck, thereby creating a negative feedback loop where scoring points (usually) lessens your ability to score additional points.  In contrast, certain other deck builders have a positive feedback loop, where the powerful card are themselves worth lots of points.  I was originally going to suggest the following as a rough analogy, but instead I decided to present as a (purposefully flawed) variant.

At the end of the game, each card is worth 1 VP for each $1 of its cost.  So for instance, King's Court is worth 7 VP, Cellar is worth 2 VP, Philosopher's Stone is worth 3 VP, etc.  I suppose this is really variants:

A)  Only costs count (e.g., Province would be 8 VP)

B)  Ordinary VP counts also (e.g. Province would be 6 VP + 8 VP = 14 VP)

What do you think would be the consequences of this variant?  Would you still buy green often in variant B?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 02:21:52 pm »
0

Probably depends on the board. 

Variant A would pretty much discount VP cards entirely.  Province for 8VP or Gold for 6VP and spending power so I can buy more valuable cards in the future?  I'd pick the latter until very near the end game (which would almost always be due to piles).

Variant B is more interesting.  Estates are now worth 3VP, Duchies are worth 8VP, Provinces are 14VP, Colonies are 21VP.  Those are still fairly significant. 

Overall, gainers would become far more powerful.  Cost based TfB becomes a lot weaker.  Bishop is a joke because the VP gainer actually makes you lose VP except when you trash a $0.
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sudgy

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 02:23:19 pm »
0

...Goons are amazing...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

LastFootnote

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2013, 02:27:53 pm »
+10

...Goons are amazing...

Yes, but what does that have to do with this variant?  ;)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 02:32:41 pm »
0

...Goons are amazing...

I think Goons would be weaker in this variant.  In the normal game, Goons is great because it can amass a lot of non-Supply VP.  If you can pull off a multi-Goons mega turn, it may be impossible for opponents to make up the VP difference from VP cards alone -- i.e. if they didn't mirror Goons, they have no chance.

In this variant, the VP that Goons gives will be less impactful because EVERY card in the game (minus $0 junk) is worth VP.  It can still matter, but it doesn't matter as much.
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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 02:33:59 pm »
0

Another: Odd costs are negative VP, even costs are positive. What about that?
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sudgy

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 02:34:50 pm »
0

...Goons are amazing...

I think Goons would be weaker in this variant.  In the normal game, Goons is great because it can amass a lot of non-Supply VP.  If you can pull off a multi-Goons mega turn, it may be impossible for opponents to make up the VP difference from VP cards alone -- i.e. if they didn't mirror Goons, they have no chance.

In this variant, the VP that Goons gives will be less impactful because EVERY card in the game (minus $0 junk) is worth VP.  It can still matter, but it doesn't matter as much.

But it gives you coins and more buys to buy more costly cards.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

SirPeebles

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 03:02:58 pm »
0

I think cards with on-gain or on-buy effects would be better on average.  Not because of those effects, but because those cards usually cost a bit extra to compensate for those one time effects.  Now that extra cost would be a bonus.

On the other hand, we would expect overpay cards to be weakened for the same reason.  But in fact, Stonemason and Masterpiece would both be even better:  Stonemason would net you 2 VP per $1 of overpay while Masterpiece would net 3 VP per $1 of overpay.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 03:29:05 pm »
0

...Goons are amazing...

I think Goons would be weaker in this variant.  In the normal game, Goons is great because it can amass a lot of non-Supply VP.  If you can pull off a multi-Goons mega turn, it may be impossible for opponents to make up the VP difference from VP cards alone -- i.e. if they didn't mirror Goons, they have no chance.

In this variant, the VP that Goons gives will be less impactful because EVERY card in the game (minus $0 junk) is worth VP.  It can still matter, but it doesn't matter as much.

But it gives you coins and more buys to buy more costly cards.

The coin that Goons gives is no better than the coin that Silver gives.  Extra Buys don't help you buy more costly cards (unless you have cost reduction).  Say you have $6.  With my 1 Buy, I an buy a Gold.  With your 2 Buys, you could buy 2 Silvers or something.  In the end, you've still spent $6 which is worth 6VP in this variant.  Occasionally it may be helpful with awkward coin totals (e.g. $7 without a $7 card available) but generally it doesn't help that much.  Goons does not give any more benefit in the variant than it does in the normal game, but the benefit is less valuable in the variant.
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cluckyb

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2013, 04:05:25 pm »
0

How does option a) work with gardens?

Option b) is definitely... interesting. +buy becomes a lot more important I think as you want to make sure you're getting everything out of your coins.

Do cost reducers still apply at the end of the game? i.e. if you end the game on KC/KC/Bridge/Bridge/Bridge does that turn scoring back into vanilla dominion (with Colonys being worth an extra two)?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 04:34:58 pm »
0

How does option a) work with gardens?

Option b) is definitely... interesting. +buy becomes a lot more important I think as you want to make sure you're getting everything out of your coins.

Do cost reducers still apply at the end of the game? i.e. if you end the game on KC/KC/Bridge/Bridge/Bridge does that turn scoring back into vanilla dominion (with Colonys being worth an extra two)?

Disagree with the +Buy bit.  Spending $7 on Gold is still fine.  Yeah you miss out on one extra VP, but that's not that big a deal.  A similar argument is that you should always use every buy when you have a Goons in play.  1VP isn't worth clogging up your deck with Copper.
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cluckyb

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2013, 05:33:11 pm »
0

How does option a) work with gardens?

Option b) is definitely... interesting. +buy becomes a lot more important I think as you want to make sure you're getting everything out of your coins.

Do cost reducers still apply at the end of the game? i.e. if you end the game on KC/KC/Bridge/Bridge/Bridge does that turn scoring back into vanilla dominion (with Colonys being worth an extra two)?

Disagree with the +Buy bit.  Spending $7 on Gold is still fine.  Yeah you miss out on one extra VP, but that's not that big a deal.  A similar argument is that you should always use every buy when you have a Goons in play.  1VP isn't worth clogging up your deck with Copper.

I was thinking for for the purposes of rushing early cantrips/villages, rather than buying up spare copper
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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2013, 12:08:11 am »
+2

In either case, Scout destroys everyone.  Adding 4VP the card that can pull the Green into your hand, and is non-terminal?

Unbelievable.
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heron

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2013, 12:12:24 am »
0

Especially now that every card is a victory card.
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Gveoniz

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2013, 12:29:44 am »
0

What about potion cost?
Never mind, I missed that only coin counts. Sorry.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 07:05:01 am by Gveoniz »
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Asper

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2013, 06:32:49 am »
0

In either case, Scout destroys everyone.  Adding 4VP the card that can pull the Green into your hand, and is non-terminal?

Unbelievable.

Only if all cards are considered Victory Cards. If not, Scout is just as horrible as it was before. Maybe even worse.

I can only imagine how powerful Ironworks gets, though.
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2013, 10:37:40 am »
0

Peddler becomes a really powerful card.
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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2013, 12:44:03 pm »
0

Bishop becomes pretty bad.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2013, 08:53:31 am »
0

Every "alternate gainer" that grants you cards costing at least... let's say, $5, are nice !
Border Village, University, Haggler... but also Gold Gainers such as Hoard and Tunnel.

Variante A without any non-mixed victory cards (but maybe still with Nobles, Harem and others...) and with Platina would be mega-fun !
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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2013, 09:14:05 am »
0

Peddler.
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Re: Bad Variant: Costs score victory points.
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2013, 05:17:28 pm »
+3

RATS!!!
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