Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Schneau]

I've heard the first 4 or 5 episodes, and no Dominion.

[Schneau]

Well, they came out with the Dominion vs. All Other Deckbuilders episode. Is anyone from here on it? I didn't recognize either of the names of the guys defending Dominion, and no one has mentioned Dominion Strategy yet, which is disappointing. You can listen to the episode here and vote on it here. It would be great to rock the poll and show how much the Dominion community cares more than any other deckbuilder's community.

[heron]

"It felt to me as if it had been designed in its entirety and then split into it's expansions..."
I wonder why it feels that way? 

"The people who really like dominion haven't stuck around through all of these expansions..."
You know, except for us.

"Ascension's two currency thing is so amazingly innovative."
Oh wait dominion did that first.

(Just my thoughts)

[theory]

They didn't even bother contacting me.  I don't really put much stock into these things any more, most are pretty amateurishly done.

[tolenmar]

Most of these are pretty amateur, but Tom Vasel and Dice Tower have been around for a while, and they have a pretty good production going. I usually look at their reviews before I buy anything.

Having said that, I really didnt agree with most of what the con's said in that podcast.  I've tried to get into thunderstone and ascension, but they just don't do it for me.

[Tables]

I've never really enjoyed Dice Tower. It's a shame that they didn't get anyone from F:DS, especially theory, who would have been basically the perfect person to defend the game. Judging by the poll, it won anyway, though.

[popsofctown]

I've never really enjoyed Dice Tower. It's a shame that they didn't get anyone from F:DS, especially theory, who would have been basically the perfect person to defend the game. Judging by the poll, it won anyway, though.

Dominion has the best sales.  Dominion probably didn't win due to people making an informed decision about how it compares to other deckbuilders.  It would have, but it probably didn't.

[Awaclus]

I've never really enjoyed Dice Tower. It's a shame that they didn't get anyone from F:DS, especially theory, who would have been basically the perfect person to defend the game. Judging by the poll, it won anyway, though.

Dominion has the best sales.  Dominion probably didn't win due to people making an informed decision about how it compares to other deckbuilders.  It would have, but it probably didn't.

Good point. I certainly voted for Dominion even though it's the only deckbuilder I've played.

[Davio]

"It felt to me as if it had been designed in its entirety and then split into it's expansions..."
I wonder why it feels that way? 

"The people who really like dominion haven't stuck around through all of these expansions..."
You know, except for us.

"Ascension's two currency thing is so amazingly innovative."
Oh wait dominion did that first.

(Just my thoughts)

Well, expansions aside, the two currency thing is not so innovative in Dominion as Potions are very, very limited.

The only interesting thing about having two currencies is that there should be a point where you want to cross over from amassing the first to amassing the second.

Say the currencies are coins and swords, you'll want coins first to buy stuff that gets you swords and later you want those swords to get points. That's basically how two currencies work and what they try to accomplish. If you mix things up early you can only afford either bad coin cards or bad sword cards and that won't get you anywhere fast. So the sole purpose of multiple currencies is to force you to switch gears.

Dominion solves this aspect by making you buy green cards and the good part about that is that you can still use your regular currency to keep buying stuff while you're buying green cards as well, so you have less "junk" (wrong currency) during the end game, only the green cards you bought (and possible junk your opponent gave you).

[Awaclus]

"It felt to me as if it had been designed in its entirety and then split into it's expansions..."
I wonder why it feels that way? 

"The people who really like dominion haven't stuck around through all of these expansions..."
You know, except for us.

"Ascension's two currency thing is so amazingly innovative."
Oh wait dominion did that first.

(Just my thoughts)

Well, expansions aside, the two currency thing is not so innovative in Dominion as Potions are very, very limited.

The only interesting thing about having two currencies is that there should be a point where you want to cross over from amassing the first to amassing the second.

Say the currencies are coins and swords, you'll want coins first to buy stuff that gets you swords and later you want those swords to get points. That's basically how two currencies work and what they try to accomplish. If you mix things up early you can only afford either bad coin cards or bad sword cards and that won't get you anywhere fast. So the sole purpose of multiple currencies is to force you to switch gears.

Dominion solves this aspect by making you buy green cards and the good part about that is that you can still use your regular currency to keep buying stuff while you're buying green cards as well, so you have less "junk" (wrong currency) during the end game, only the green cards you bought (and possible junk your opponent gave you).

Or, you can use two currencies in the game to force players to choose between the sword strategy and the coin strategy. Additionally, it's possible that the cheap coin cards and the cheap sword cards are good enough to make a mid range strategy sometimes viable.

But in actuality, there are more currencies in Dominion than just two: cards are kind of a currency in many ways (increasing your deck size by 1 is a cost that most cards have, decreasing your hand size by 1 is a cost that most cards have when you play them), actions and buys are currencies too, etc. The things you can do are limited, and $ and P costs aren't the only thing limiting it.

[Archetype]

In my opinion, the things that make Dominion my favorite deck builder are:
A) Negative feedback via victory cards
B) The "one action" that actually makes you monitor what you're putting into your deck

[flies]

In my opinion, the things that make Dominion my favorite deck builder are:
A) Negative feedback via victory cards
B) The "one action" that actually makes you monitor what you're putting into your deck

B is especially critical.  The one action rule has a profound effect on overall strategy that can make certain cards function drastically differently depending on the kingdom.  As I think of it, this cliche (for us) is one of the things that makes Dominion so great: the cards work together in such interesting ways that vary a lot depending on what else is available.

The rotating supply track of games like Ascension severely limit the depth of the strategy space and hence the replayability.  That may or may not matter to you.  (I'm not saying games can't be compared, just that it depends on your criteria.)

[Archetype]

In my opinion, the things that make Dominion my favorite deck builder are:
A) Negative feedback via victory cards
B) The "one action" that actually makes you monitor what you're putting into your deck

B is especially critical.  The one action rule has a profound effect on overall strategy that can make certain cards function drastically differently depending on the kingdom.  As I think of it, this cliche (for us) is one of the things that makes Dominion so great: the cards work together in such interesting ways that vary a lot depending on what else is available.

The rotating supply track of games like Ascension severely limit the depth of the strategy space and hence the replayability.  That may or may not matter to you.  (I'm not saying games can't be compared, just that it depends on your criteria.)

Exactly. That's why I think Dominion is the best "pure" deckbuilder. What I've seen is designers taking Dominion, stripping it of its "1 Action" mechanism and then throwing in a bunch of other stuff. In Ascension's case it includes adding in the 2nd currency, rotating suppy, and different "races" or whatever they are. It does add another layer of strategy, but it removes the depth.

To create a successful competitor to Dominion I think designers should instead try to remove some other minor mechanics, but leave in the "1 Action" and "The closer you are to winning, the slower your deck". I think that's the sort of game that should be paired against Dominion.

[Drab Emordnilap]

In my opinion, the things that make Dominion my favorite deck builder are:
A) Negative feedback via victory cards
B) The "one action" that actually makes you monitor what you're putting into your deck

B is especially critical.  The one action rule has a profound effect on overall strategy that can make certain cards function drastically differently depending on the kingdom.  As I think of it, this cliche (for us) is one of the things that makes Dominion so great: the cards work together in such interesting ways that vary a lot depending on what else is available.

The rotating supply track of games like Ascension severely limit the depth of the strategy space and hence the replayability.  That may or may not matter to you.  (I'm not saying games can't be compared, just that it depends on your criteria.)

Exactly. That's why I think Dominion is the best "pure" deckbuilder. What I've seen is designers taking Dominion, stripping it of its "1 Action" mechanism and then throwing in a bunch of other stuff. In Ascension's case it includes adding in the 2nd currency, rotating suppy, and different "races" or whatever they are. It does add another layer of strategy, but it removes the depth.

To create a successful competitor to Dominion I think designers should instead try to remove some other minor mechanics, but leave in the "1 Action" and "The closer you are to winning, the slower your deck". I think that's the sort of game that should be paired against Dominion.

So, Puzzle Strike then?

[Archetype]

In my opinion, the things that make Dominion my favorite deck builder are:
A) Negative feedback via victory cards
B) The "one action" that actually makes you monitor what you're putting into your deck

B is especially critical.  The one action rule has a profound effect on overall strategy that can make certain cards function drastically differently depending on the kingdom.  As I think of it, this cliche (for us) is one of the things that makes Dominion so great: the cards work together in such interesting ways that vary a lot depending on what else is available.

The rotating supply track of games like Ascension severely limit the depth of the strategy space and hence the replayability.  That may or may not matter to you.  (I'm not saying games can't be compared, just that it depends on your criteria.)

Exactly. That's why I think Dominion is the best "pure" deckbuilder. What I've seen is designers taking Dominion, stripping it of its "1 Action" mechanism and then throwing in a bunch of other stuff. In Ascension's case it includes adding in the 2nd currency, rotating suppy, and different "races" or whatever they are. It does add another layer of strategy, but it removes the depth.

To create a successful competitor to Dominion I think designers should instead try to remove some other minor mechanics, but leave in the "1 Action" and "The closer you are to winning, the slower your deck". I think that's the sort of game that should be paired against Dominion.

So, Puzzle Strike then?

An original game, so most likely not one by Sirlin.

[flies]

just listened to this.  Overall, the defenders of Dominion did terribly.  The first issue taken up in the discussion is theme.

Dominion's theme is super weak, and any attempt to defend it is totally pointless.  I mean, yeah, there's kind of a theme, but it really has very little to do with what makes the game great.  Defending Dominion's theme just makes it look awful.  If it were me, I'd just say, "If theme is important to you, then Dominion is probably not going to appeal to you.  Dominion's appeal to casual players is its replayability, which is made possible by the thing that appeals to hardcore strategy gamers: its strategic depth."

The really disappointing thing about the conversation is that there was essentially no discussion of what makes Dominion fun to play, which is figuring out how the cards work together.  I mean, there's more than just that, but that's what Dominion has over all other deck builders, and the issue was entirely left out of the discussion.  For this reason, the discussion missed the core issue and was disappointing.