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[Voltgloss]

No hammers until UoS fullclaims.

Where has he been? Long enough for a prod? If so, i request a prod on UoS

I agree with this.  It's been about three and a half days since UoS last posted. 

[Voltaire]

It's re-reads time. I've realized I likely won't be able to be around for either deadline, so I'll likely need to get my vote in sometime late tomorrow. mail-mi is not looking viable, so though he remains my top scum read, I'm looking elsewhere. If others are convinced between now and then I will happily move my vote back.

Post counts, no pre-game, through 545:

yuma - 62
Voltaire - 54
ashersky - 42
mail-mi - 42
UmbrageOfSnow - 34
Voltgloss - 32
nkirbit - 30
Robz888 - 29
Jorbles - 29
shraeye - 26
liopoil - 12
Eevee - 7

Bold is the range I'd theoretically expect scum to fall into. It's become less useful - hopefully because scum saw me call them out on it. I'll have to see how this has changed since last pointed out.

Can we please get a prod of UoS?

Scummy:
mail-mi - I was shocked how high his post count is. Using the usefulness to post count ratio, mail-mi "wins" this in a landslide. My full thoughts on mail-mi are well-documented elsewhere.
nkirbit - I do not like this series of events. Others have pointed it out too:

I really don't like the massclaim here, and think pushing for it early day1 is scummy.

Vote: Ashersky

I also dislike his reaction to Yuma saying he didn't like the claim and probably wouldn't participate in it.  Instead of accepting that another player, who is likely town, thinks it's a bad idea, he continued to push it with saying that it was no problem, and they'd get Yuma's claim by process of elimination.

I just read Ash as pushing a plan as opposed to actually trying to figure out if the plan is good for town or not, and it's making me uncomfortable.

In the recent Blitz game when he was town, Ash proposed his plan, and immediately justified his reasoning.  He started by trying to convince everyone that his plan was pro-town, because he wanted it to happen.

Here, his plan was proposed very differently.  He didn't start with justification, that came later.  In fact, he started posts with language such as, "Further to this", indicating he was still thinking through his plan even after he proposed it.  Which would be fine, if it wasn't completely different from what I have seen from town!Ash before.

Given that he had reasons, why didn't he just dump them all initially, get us to mass-claim if it's really what was best for town, then get on with it?  This isn't what happened.  He's justified it bit by bit.

I just think if Ash were town and really thought mass-claiming were good, he would have made a concise, initial post explaining exactly why it was good rather than leave his reasoning scattered over several pages.  You know, to make sure we actually mass claim, because he think it's pro-town.

He didn't do this, so it makes me think that either Ash isn't town, or he actually doesn't think that massclaiming is good.  I don't think it's the second, since massclaiming isn't obviously bad like past plans have been.  So I lean towards the first.

Yo! Just skim caught up. Didn't pay enough attention to people's statements (which is bad) but I did follow the pros and cons of the claiming thing. I sort of like VG's plan to claim Pr/non-Pr. But, well, we probably don't want to claim at all, because really town actually does end up winning mulitball variants fairly often, and they win because scum shoots each other. Any role revealing reduces the chances of scum shooting each other, which is very bad for town.

Vote: ashersky

I think ash-with-a-plan is usually town ash. However, I don't like the way he just claimed right off the bat here. For one thing, I do think it's anti-town if we massclai, and it's certainly anti-town if just he claims. So. Also, it's something I can see ash doing as scum to sort of get out of the way. Now he's already claimed, and I bet he thought that maybe we would start to just take the claim at face value and think of him as town. So, I'm voting him for now.

This is a better written version of my feelings about Ash.  I just am uneasy about Ash here.. his plans usually feel towny to me, and this one just doesn't.

nkirbit is voting for ash for taking a few posts to explain his plan and not making it obvious that the plan was pro-town, which I disagree with. nkirbit can only justify this with "feel" and "gut", and then he sheep's Robz's totally different reasons for voting for ash.

Then, this happens:

But UoS trying to fan the flames on Ashersky while making it appear like he's not the one doing so is definitely scummy.

In general, I agree with Jorble's view on UoS.  He has been trying to lead the conversation in a direction to make someone else point out a scummy thing someone else did without having to do it himself.  So he doesn't get his hands dirty.  Examples are posts #255, 257, 265, 284, 291.  He seems very reluctant to actually say, "I find X scummy!".  This is quite possibly a scum trait.

Vote: UmbrageOfSnow

This is just flat-out incorrect, as pointed out by UoS himself, and another sheep. Take it all together, and vote: nkirbit.

Null:
yuma - Yuma has been yuma. He was the first to suggest looking at MafiaScum history to see what this setup tends to yield and asked for some clarification about the flavor. Yuma finds me scummy for trying to get the game rolling in earnest after he himself engages in the theory talk and does not do much (prior to me). What really strikes me here is now much theory talk yuma has engaged in (he has been scumhunting as well).
liopoil - lio has popped into the game at "big" moments (UoS claim, etc.) and nothing else. I think that's consistent with town or scum on V/LA.
Robz888 - Eevee makes a good point that his rapid-fire catch-up didn't add much content but it got his post-count out of "lurker" territory.

Lite town:
Jorbles - Talks a lot about theory, but in a way that makes it clear he's thoroughly thinking it through. Thinks I "know" ash is town. I actually get a bit of a town read for being concerned about how he's perceived - I just don't see scum openly admitting to that, even if it's true. Your WIFOM may vary.
ashersky - My opinions on ash are well-documented elsewhere. I am not a fan of what he is doing but I do not see him as scum right now.
Eevee - actually has a nigh amount of content for a tiny post count, and it's been reads and pushing. That said, there's not too much here.
Voltgloss - Perfects the plan. Methodical scumhunting. The most obvious pro-town player, I'd say.
shraeye - Poking and proding and scumhunting and getting a bit under my skin, but I'm trying to look past that. Not posting full reads, but that'll get a pass - for now - since apparently it's his meta. Corrections welcome. The one thing I do not like here is the implying that UoS is setting up mislynches.

Town:
UmbrageOfSnow - I believe the claim, and I had a town read on UoS beforehand anyway.

PPE: Everything since 545. I see I'm not the only one missing UoS.

[Voltgloss]

To answer a separate question that I think Voltgloss raised: I claimed Amy Pond early on for a number of reasons.  Sure, scum may want to claim VT in this game, but scum aren’t the only ones who have a reason to do that.  VTs will claim VT, of course.  Possibly Town PRs would, to try and hide.

So maybe I was hiding something with my VT claim.  But really, I just honestly believe my plan, which has all three PRs coming forward on D1, is the best thing possible for town.  What you all are missing, and what scum is obfuscating, is that there are more dangers to this than just losing PRs at night.  As mentioned by multiple people, scum gain the knowledge from the kills, not town.  Then they can use that knowledge against us.

ash:

- I understand how, if you are scum, claiming VT at gamestart can promote your wincon.
- I understand how, if you are a town PR, claiming VT at gamestart can promote the town's wincon.
- What I cannot understand is how, if you are a VT, claiming VT at gamestart promotes the town's wincon.

Your response above simply states "VTs will claim VT, of course."  Which is an apt response for explaining why, as VT, you would claim VT during a massclaim.  But that's not what happened.  You proposed massclaim, and almost immediately claimed VT.  I.e., you claimed VT before massclaim, and without regard to whether massclaim would actually take place. 

So what I need to understand is this:  Assuming you are VT, how does your early VT-claim - before, and possibly without, any massclaim - promote the town's wincon?

Or - again, assuming you are VT - was your early VT-claim simply a mistake?

[Archetype]

UmbrageOfSnow has been prodded.

[nkirbit]

Then, this happens:

But UoS trying to fan the flames on Ashersky while making it appear like he's not the one doing so is definitely scummy.

In general, I agree with Jorble's view on UoS.  He has been trying to lead the conversation in a direction to make someone else point out a scummy thing someone else did without having to do it himself.  So he doesn't get his hands dirty.  Examples are posts #255, 257, 265, 284, 291.  He seems very reluctant to actually say, "I find X scummy!".  This is quite possibly a scum trait.

Vote: UmbrageOfSnow

This is just flat-out incorrect, as pointed out by UoS himself, and another sheep. Take it all together, and vote: nkirbit.

It wasn't just flat-out incorrect.  My point was that UoS was pointing out things that people might find scummy about Ashersky while simultaneously claiming that he didn't felt him scummy.  I felt that it could be scum trying to paint a player as scummy without getting their hands dirty, and I felt that other posts he made could be interpreted that way.

UoS pointing out that he was clear that he didn't find Ashersky scummy doesn't prevent my point.  It may be incorrect as shown by his claim, but a lot of the day1 cases we make are incorrect.  But I do maintain that it's a reasonable interpretation of his actions I pointed out.

[shraeye]

He's setting up future lynches

vote: nkirbit for the scummiest reaction to ash's plan.  "Eh I won't be talking about this" followed by "here's me talking about this" smells a bit to me of his partner in daychat going "dude it will look suspicious if you totally refuse to engage with town in their main topic of discussion."

He makes an early case for nkirbit, which I agreed with.  Then there were other things that nkirbit did which I also found scummy, which lead to me re-validating my vote on him.  Yet later on, Voltgloss casts suspicion on me for "agreeing to such a weak case", YET HE STILL FINDS NKIRBIT SCUMMY, exactly the same as I did.
I'm beginning to think that it's very possible that nkirbit is town, and Voltgloss is gearing up to have me be the suspicious character that takes the rap for any nkirbit lynch.

- nkirbit has been tunneling on ash, with a brief detour to UoS after Jorbles announced suspecting UoS (and after nkirbit himself named Jorbles as his biggest townread so far).  What gets me suspicious of nkirbit is that, although he's been around and posting quite a bit, he has given no reads on anyone except ash, Jorbles, and UoS.  I think there is a reasonably good chance he is scum hoping to get through Day 1 by focusing solely on one or two cases he thinks others find popular. 

- Of all pending sets of reads, I am most interested to read shraeye's.  He is asking a lot of questions, which is similar to how I try to play Day 1, whether scum or town.  He is also the only player to join my early case on nkirbit - which actually makes me suspicious, as that was a weak case (made when there was precious little to go on), yet shraeye pushed it harder that I myself thought it was worth.  (I still have a scumread on nkirbit but for different reasons.)  I am eager to see where shraeye is going.

Tons of open ended questions to everyone as a whole...the "hey what do you think of this" scumtell
>

Those who have played with mail-mi, question:  his behavior so far here - how does it compare to previous games?

>

In the meantime, for those of you who are around (yuma, Robz, others?), I have a question I'd ask you chew on while I'm pulling together my lanalysis:  what are your thoughts on liopoil?

Note, that this one came after he called for everybody's reads, but before he posted his reads.

>

Thanks.  I did notice liopoil has been on V/LA since gamestart, and am taking that into account.  There's something else bothering me about liopoil - was curious if anyone else noticed it - but I'll make clear my concern in my overall post later tonight.

yuma, I'm also interested to hear your thoughts on mail-mi.

more questions about people...I sure hope he comes around with that tidbit on liopoil that he promised. 

Again he asks yuma about mail-mi.  Yuma had already answered his generic mail-mi question in #244, and had already posted a reads list which had ranked mail-mi. 

So voltgloss claims that he was asking because yuma hadn't commented yet on mail-mi, but that's just not true.

I didn't ask yuma for his opinion on mail-mi because I assume yuma is town.  I asked yuma for his opinion on mail-mi because mail-mi has been sheeping yuma, yet yuma hadn't commented on that other than to post a picture of sheep.

I just reread with an objective eye what I was about to post on liopoil, with a vote on liopoil, and decided it wasn't as compelling as I thought it was.  I also think it's not the right time to raise the observation that I found potentially concerning.  Let liopoil finish his V/LA (which ends today, I think?) and have an opportunity to come to us with susbtance first.

Instead, vote: nkirbit.  mail-mi is the obvious active lurker lynch (and as I said before, not a bad lynch choice).  ash is also an obvious active lurker lynch at this juncture, unless/until he gives us scumhunting substance and addresses the cases against him.  But nkirbit is also actively lurking, but in a more subtle way by focusing on only a couple of players.  That's what concerns me most.

Aw shucks, he didn't do that thing about liopoil.  I guess we'll keep waiting...

>

Robz, yuma, nkirbit, mail-mi:  Assuming ash is scum like you suspect, what do you think he is trying to achieve by deliberately avoiding the thread?

After this gets answered, he agrees with liopoil and goes on to further hedge/theorize without making any conclusions

I agree, liopoil.  I can see crazy!town!ash avoiding the thread with the same likelihood of crazy!scum!ash avoiding the thread.  I can think of at least one goal ash may be trying to achieve with this gambit, assuming it is a gambit and assuming he is town.  So at this point, that behavior of ash's is a nulltell for me. 

What concerns me more about ash is the VT claim.  I think Robz made a good point that scum have a strong incentive to claim VT in this setup, to avoid being shot by opposing scum.  So I can see why scum!ash would do that.  What I'm not seeing is why town!ash would do that.

here, Voltgloss demands the thread make lists, so he can see who is generally scummy, and who is generally towny.  This is rarely a good idea, if we really want a solid lynch.

In pursuit of meeting these goals, I ask everyone, by the end of their next two posts, to group all other players (besides yourself) into "Will Not Lynch On Day 1," "Could Lynch On Day 1," and "Prefer To Lynch On Day 1" categories.  Each category should have at least 3 players.  Right now, our votes are quite literally scattered across the entire roster of players, which does not fill me with confidence that we're on a good path to settling on a lynch within a week.

Here, Voltgloss demands that people make full reads lists, and specifies how many people belong in which category.  This is a great way for scum to have in one concise location a good idea of who to nightkill.  I think that this is scummier as a suggestion than if Voltgloss had just posted his reads, and continued to ask questions of other people's reads.  Making the call for everybody's comprehensive reads is a "towny"-sounding way to move the game forward, but I really don't think it helps town at all; I think it's a better tool for scum to find mislynches and nightkills.

yup, he's scum

Hardy-har, ash.  No, I don't have daychat, as I am not scum. 

Oh really, well here are some really interesting slips, then (underlines are my own).

I'm not saying that I agree with liopoil's thinking, but re: #284, I do think it's pretty clear that the second quote UoS lists was liopoil specifically talking about L-1 claims <i>on Day 1</i>.  I recall liopoil re-clarified as much later on.

So I guess that means I agree with yuma's take on it in #287.

So now we need to figure out if UoS had a minor kickball incident (as town) or manufactured one (as scum).

If he's SK, it's a really risky move, as it's basically inviting the mafia's nightkill.  If he's mafia, it's a less risky move, but still pretty gutsy - SK <i>might</i> not target him even if the SK thinks he's telling the truth, assuming the mafia is going to target him instead.

Without benefit of a full thread reread, I think UoS is most likely town at this point.

[shraeye]

Vote: Voltgloss

[Robz888]

How are those slips...?

[Voltgloss]

The "tidbit" on liopoil is that the significant majority of his (very few) posts in this game were talking about the Vig.  What the Vig should do, whether the Vig should claim, how important the Vig is, etc. etc.  I thought this was a scumtell, i.e., scum!liopoil setting things us so that, if he/his team was lucky enough to nightkill the Vig, he could then claim Vig and point to all of those posts as breadcrumbing.

I then read other games with liopoil and saw him doing the same exact thing there.  I thus came to the conclusion that liopoil just puts more stock in Vigs than most of us do, and revised my read from scumtell to nulltell.

[Voltgloss]

I think my own post that shraeye quoted makes clear my concern re: shraeye - that he pushed what I considered to be a weak case no nkirbit - AND the fact that I also found nkirbit scummy, but for different reasons than that original weak case (which shraeye pushed).

I make no excuses for asking people questions, exhorting people to make lists, and generally pushing people to talk.  This includes my second question to yuma about mail-mi, which prompted a significantly more susbtantive post from yuma on the subject (and a follow-up by Robz).  Getting people to talk about other players is how we make a record, and perusing that record - in the light of people's actions - is how we catch scum.  Scum are in general wary of talking, because it's in talking that scum make slips or take positions that can come back to bite them later on.  Scum would love it if no one ever badgered them into talking. 

Also, repeatedly calling my post a "demand" is an unwarranted spin.  I asked people to make lists.  I have not voted anyone for failing to make lists.  I have not suggested anyone is scummy for failing to make lists.  I have pushed to try to get lurkers to contribute.  I make no excuses for that.  It's important to do.

I really don't know what "slips" shraeye thinks I made.

I also note that I'm the only person who voiced any serious suspicion of shraeye this game, so his case on me should be read with a grain of OMGUSalt.

All that said, I am not finding shraeye scummy for making the case.  We have playstyle differences.  It is easy to see someone as scummy who plays differently from how you think the game should be played.  That doesn't make you scum... but it doesn't make the person who plays differently from you scum either.

I have more to say - on an entirely different topic than shraeye - but it must wait until ash responds to my question.  Due to timezone differences, I don't expect that to happen until late tonight (forum time).

I am also hopeful that UoS will show up, as I have a particular question for him as well.

[ashersky]

To answer a separate question that I think Voltgloss raised: I claimed Amy Pond early on for a number of reasons.  Sure, scum may want to claim VT in this game, but scum aren’t the only ones who have a reason to do that.  VTs will claim VT, of course.  Possibly Town PRs would, to try and hide.

So maybe I was hiding something with my VT claim.  But really, I just honestly believe my plan, which has all three PRs coming forward on D1, is the best thing possible for town.  What you all are missing, and what scum is obfuscating, is that there are more dangers to this than just losing PRs at night.  As mentioned by multiple people, scum gain the knowledge from the kills, not town.  Then they can use that knowledge against us.

ash:

- I understand how, if you are scum, claiming VT at gamestart can promote your wincon.
- I understand how, if you are a town PR, claiming VT at gamestart can promote the town's wincon.
- What I cannot understand is how, if you are a VT, claiming VT at gamestart promotes the town's wincon.

Your response above simply states "VTs will claim VT, of course."  Which is an apt response for explaining why, as VT, you would claim VT during a massclaim.  But that's not what happened.  You proposed massclaim, and almost immediately claimed VT.  I.e., you claimed VT before massclaim, and without regard to whether massclaim would actually take place. 

So what I need to understand is this:  Assuming you are VT, how does your early VT-claim - before, and possibly without, any massclaim - promote the town's wincon?

Or - again, assuming you are VT - was your early VT-claim simply a mistake?

I was signaling my strong feeling that claiming needs to happen.  It only hurts town insofar as scum kill choices were reduced from 4/10 to 4/9 for mafia and 5/10 to 5/9 for SK, assuming they 1) believe me, and 2) don't want to kill an obv!town.

I don't see the problem you are seeing.  I would quote you on this:

  It is easy to see someone as scummy who plays differently from how you think the game should be played.  That doesn't make you scum... but it doesn't make the person who plays differently from you scum either.

[Voltgloss]

ash:  The problem I am seeing is that claiming VT - and doing so in a way that doesn't incur the town's wrath - is a very large boon for scum in this setup.  Scum don't want to get nightkilled by opposing scum.  Scum want to nightkill power roles.  So scum claiming VT can insulate themselves from opposing scum nightkills. 

You know this, of course.  What I am grappling with is the fact that you did something concrete - claimed VT - in a circumstance where claiming VT has huge gains for scum, yet only hurts town (by making it easier for scum to find town PRs).  I think this goes beyond playstyle differences.

That's why I asked what you were trying to accomplish, assuming you are a VT.  I'm trying to figure out if your stated reason is genuine.  To do that, I needed to know your reason.  Now you've stated it (thank you), and now I need to think about it.

Of course, Robz is the one who first raised the point that scum want to claim VT in this setup.  So Robz, you have any thoughts on this issue? 
/inb4 shraeye tries to vote me again for asking another player to talk

[shraeye]

"Hey Robz, can you please help me make my case on ash...thanks"

Vote: Voltgloss

[Robz888]

I just wish ash had reserved his VT claim until after we had agreed to his plan. The way he did it makes him look scummier.

[Voltaire]

ash:  The problem I am seeing is that claiming VT - and doing so in a way that doesn't incur the town's wrath - is a very large boon for scum in this setup.  Scum don't want to get nightkilled by opposing scum.  Scum want to nightkill power roles.  So scum claiming VT can insulate themselves from opposing scum nightkills. 

You know this, of course.  What I am grappling with is the fact that you did something concrete - claimed VT - in a circumstance where claiming VT has huge gains for scum, yet only hurts town (by making it easier for scum to find town PRs).  I think this goes beyond playstyle differences.

But ash could not know that he would not incur wrath at the time, which is why I buy his stated reason that he was just very intense about his opinion. That matches his actions.

[Voltaire]

That said -

Why do you have this need to have town talk about you??? We were doing just fine, in my opinion. If you're town, you took us away from what we were doing and made us talk about you. Why? People were already taking stands about you.

[shraeye]

How are those slips...?

He's using the wrong tags.  He's using QT-speak, and I suspect it's because he was switching between his scumQT and this thread.

[Robz888]

How are those slips...?

He's using the wrong tags.  He's using QT-speak, and I suspect it's because he was switching between his scumQT and this thread.

Oh. Woah.

[Voltaire]

How are those slips...?

He's using the wrong tags.  He's using QT-speak, and I suspect it's because he was switching between his scumQT and this thread.

This...this might be the first scumslip I could support.

[Robz888]

Yeah, forget the rest of your case. That's... that's significant.

[Robz888]

Explanation immediately, please, Voltgloss. Don't take time to think.

[Voltgloss]

How are those slips...?

He's using the wrong tags.  He's using QT-speak, and I suspect it's because he was switching between his scumQT and this thread.

Hah!  Clever.  Wrong, but clever.

Any messed-up tags are because I was alternating between posting here and posting in this.  Link is safe and non-spoilery. 

[shraeye]

How are those slips...?

He's using the wrong tags.  He's using QT-speak, and I suspect it's because he was switching between his scumQT and this thread.

Hah!  Clever.  Wrong, but clever.

Any messed-up tags are because I was alternating between posting here and posting in this.  Link is safe and non-spoilery.

Nope,, your first slip in this thread is more than 15 hours after your latest post in that QT.  Your second slip here is more than 2 days after any of your posting in that QT.  You were not alternating.

[liopoil]

<i>might</i>

august 8th, 10pm

<i>on Day 1</i>

august 10th

voltgloss has not posted in that QT since august 8th, 7 am.

[Voltgloss]

Though I guess that's probably not going to satisfy people, seeing as how the posts shraeye is raising were after my latest post in that QT. 

It's pretty funny.  This is exactly the type of case I'd make and push really hard.  And yet, here I am (as town), making a mistake that is rightly being called as scummy - and yet I am town.  Ironic!  Guess I'm just rusty at the game.

...I can't even be mad, it's so hilarious.

Welp.  If you all want to lynch me for this, I won't hold it against any of you.  I'd be banging the drum for shraeye's lynch if I caught shraeye in this same manner.  Unfortunately, I am town, and you'll see that if you lynch me and I flip.  And I won't self-vote, because I am town.

Apologies for letting the town down.

PPE:  Yeah, you people already saw that.