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Author Topic: Updating the Top 5 lists  (Read 87967 times)

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Voltgloss

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #125 on: December 08, 2011, 10:17:49 am »
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Might Pearl Diver work well with Chancellor?  With Chancellor in your deck, you're hoping to draw your best cards early, then Chancellor midway through, so you can discard your deck and get back to those best cards more quickly.  The last thing you want is for your best cards to be shuffled below the Chancellor.  Pearl Diver helps mitigate that risk.

The idea works in reverse too, with Counting House.  You want Counting House to be one of the last things you draw.  By using Pearl Divers to move other stuff to the top of your deck, you're effectively pushing the Counting House down further into your deck.  (Of course if your Pearl Diver finds Counting House, you smile, leave it there, and make a mental note to count your draws carefully so picking up the Counting House doesn't trigger the reshuffle.)

And while we're on the subject of Native Villages...

Native Village - This is also very board-dependant. The biggest problem is that you need a Spy or draw your whole deck and discard a card to know what you draw on your mat. On most boards this isn't possible. So you only get your +2 Actions.

...Pearl Diver can help with this issue as well.

Nothing outstanding, certainly, but Pearl Diver does have a unique effect that can subtly improve shuffle luck for cards that are heavily impacted by such luck.
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rrenaud

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #126 on: December 08, 2011, 11:08:17 am »
+1

Might Pearl Diver work well with Chancellor? 

Yes.  Chancellor helps you lose.  Pearl diver will help you lose faster :P
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Fangz

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #127 on: December 08, 2011, 11:11:09 am »
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I'd go...

1. Chapel
2. Hamlet
3. Courtyard
4. Lighthouse
5. Haven
6. Pawn
7. Native village
8. Crossroads
9. Cellar
10. Embargo
11. Fool's Gold
12. Pearl Diver
13. Herbalist
14. Moat
15. Secret Chamber
16. Duchess

A lot of these is quite dependent on number of players, though. With 3 players, moat will be quite a lot higher, and probably fool's gold will be dead last.
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jotheonah

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #128 on: December 08, 2011, 04:37:58 pm »
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I only ever buy Woodcutter for the +buy, and I'd buy Herbalist over Woodcutter (even with the cost difference). In the kind of deck where I'm desperate enough for +buy that I'm getting it from a terminal (or where I have so many extra actions that the terminal doesn't matter) the ability to reuse my money is probably better than the extra $1.

Add in how smoothly it an enables an alchemist chain and I don't see how you can put it in the bottom five (not that I'd put it in the top 5 either).
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #129 on: December 08, 2011, 05:23:39 pm »
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I only ever buy Woodcutter for the +buy, and I'd buy Herbalist over Woodcutter (even with the cost difference). In the kind of deck where I'm desperate enough for +buy that I'm getting it from a terminal (or where I have so many extra actions that the terminal doesn't matter) the ability to reuse my money is probably better than the extra $1.

Add in how smoothly it an enables an alchemist chain and I don't see how you can put it in the bottom five (not that I'd put it in the top 5 either).
I agree that it's not a bad card, and I do like it, but when you sit down to actually make the list, it's hard to find 5 cards to go below it. What's your bottom 5?
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jotheonah

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #130 on: December 08, 2011, 05:55:29 pm »
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I'd buy Herbalist over Cellar and Embargo in most cases and over Pearl Diver, Secret Chamber, and Duchess almost always.
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chwhite

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #131 on: December 08, 2011, 11:18:08 pm »
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Ah why the hell not:

1. Chapel Duh.
2. Hamlet Semi-duh.
3. Courtyard Better than Hamlet in BM games (and fantastic in BM plus a couple more terminals than usual games), but not really stackable, and if Hamlet is around there's probably something better than BM anyway.
4. Lighthouse Dominates Silver whenever Attacks are an issue, which is pretty often.
5. Pawn Great support for a lot of engines: it can be disappearing cash, or +Buy in a pinch, or if all else fails a cantrip.
6. Crossroads Most of the time it's merely a Cellar variant that supports early greening better and doesn't work on Coppers.  But sometimes it's nutso.
7. Native Village Worse than Village for most purposes, but better for a lot of megaturn strategies and (much more rarely) as a pseudo-trasher.  Like so many of the $2s, best if you can get a lot of them.
8. Haven A little more useful than Crossroads and NV most of the time, but almost never a linchpin like those two can be.  Nos. 6 through 8 are basically even.
9. Embargo Can often really kill an opponent's strategy (Minions and the lone Potion card are particularly hilarious targets), and if you have +Action and +Buy it can store your excess cash for later.  Important more for how it shapes an overall board than for its immediate benefit.
10. Fool's Gold Two thirds of the time, only fools buy this. The other third of the time it's beaucoup cash on the cheap, which still isn't always the best strategy.  Needs both buy/gain and strong draw/trashing.  Makes opening Mint awesome.
11. Cellar A lot worse than Crossroads and Warehouse in most situations, but still a useful effect to have in your deck when you can't get rid of junk.
12. Herbalist It's a marginally better value than Woodcutter in the "cheap +Buy" category, and topdecking treasure is sometimes really important as well (c.f. Alchemists).  Usually not something you want in your deck, but a bit better than its reputation.
13. Pearl Diver I'd be willing to buy PD at least twice as often as the cards below it.  Its effect is one of the most marginal in all of Dominion, but there are plenty of situations where you really do need a mass of cheap cantrips (Peddler, Conspirator, Goons, Scrying Pool), and making sure your best cards don't miss the reshuffle isn't a horrible side-effect!
14. Moat This is probably my lack of multiplayer experience talking, but even when attacks are on the board Moat usually isn't worth it.
15. Secret Chamber The Reaction is nearly useless (Swindler is the only case where it ever seems to make a difference- most other deck inspection attacks are too puny to matter), and its above-line effect is usually just as bad.  It does have some very occasional combo power as a poor man's Vault, which keeps it out of the bottom spot.  Before I discovered Isotropic I was convinced this was the worst card in Dominion.
16. Duchess I guess it's sometimes alright as an opening with Lab, or as Duke support.  But terminal Silver with a side effect that helps your opponent just as much as you is usually not worth it at any price.  Which is why they have to give it away for free.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 11:36:18 pm by chwhite »
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Tejayes

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #132 on: December 09, 2011, 12:06:27 am »
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If it helps any, here are a few lists of the $2 cards as determined by CouncilRoom.com data (I took off the margin of error, though):

WIN RATE WITH

1: Chapel (1.01)
2 (tie): Crossroads/Hamlet (1.00)
4: Haven (0.99)
5 (tie): Courtyard/Lighthouse/Pawn (0.98)
8 (tie): Cellar/Embargo/Fool's Gold/Pearl Diver (0.97)
12: Native Village (0.96)
13 (tie): Duchess/Moat (0.93)
15: Herbalist (0.91)
16: Secret Chamber (0.88)

WIN RATE WITHOUT

1: Chapel (0.94)
2 (tie): Hamlet/Haven (1.01)
4 (tie): Courtyard/Crossroads/Embargo (1.02)
7 (tie): Cellar/Lighthouse/Pawn/Pearl Diver (1.05)
11 (tie): Duchess/Fool's Gold/Native Village (1.06)
14 (tie): Herbalist/Moat/Secret Chamber (1.07)

DIFFERENCE (Win Rate With minus Win Rate Without)

1: Chapel (+0.07)
2: Hamlet (-0.01)
3 (tie): Crossroads/Haven (-0.02)
5: Courtyard (-0.04)
6: Embargo (-0.05)
7 (tie): Lighthouse/Pawn (-0.07)
9 (tie): Cellar/Pearl Diver (-0.08)
11: Fool's Gold (-0.09)
12: Native Village (-0.10)
13: Duchess (-0.13)
14: Moat (-0.14)
15: Herbalist (-0.16)
16: Secret Chamber (-0.19)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 01:10:54 am by Tejayes »
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rinkworks

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #133 on: December 09, 2011, 11:22:19 am »
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I think Duchess is somewhat underrated.  The spy effect, since it helps all players equally*, can be discounted entirely, making the card equivalent, powerwise, to a terminal Silver that does nothing else.  A Silver that eats an action but costs $1 less seems like a perfectly fine trade.  Maybe you usually don't need it, but if you have a spare $2 buy and are building a deck that can take another terminal, why not?  The thing about a lot of terminal Silvers is that it's very often the Silver part, not the actual bonus, that is most helpful.

Now consider that Duchess is the only $2 card that yields +$2 free and clear (Embargo is a one-shot; Secret Chamber requires discards), and we see that Duchess has a niche all its own.  This is a big deal with a 5/2 opening, as you normally want to build your economy as fast as possible.  You don't usually get to have an economy-boosting card with the $2 opening turn.

Now throw in the fact that you can pick up one for free with a Duchy -- that you don't even need a spare $2 and a buy to get one -- and the effective cost is even less than its price tag.  That is, the bar Duchess should have to clear is even lower than the bar for other $2 cards.

Does this make Duchess a great card?  No.  But I just can't see it being the worst or second-worst $2 card, as seems to be the general consensus here.

*Given decks of equal composition.  But actually Duchess' spy effect can be more useful in some decks than in others.  You can work this to your advantage if you know how to recognize when it's better for you than your opponents.  So in reality, Duchess' power level is situationally stronger than a terminal Silver that does nothing else.
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Fabian

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #134 on: December 09, 2011, 11:27:35 am »
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A terminal Silver is a horrible horrible card. You sometimes want it (for free, mind you) in the late game with bad decks just because you're desperate, but in the early and midgame, it's extremely rare that you want this in your deck imo. I think it's far and away the worst $2 card by basically any metric.

That said, I did buy it for (close to) the first time the other day, on a 5/2 opening with no terminal actions I was planning on buying that game (might have been Lab/Duchess or something). So I guess there's a time for everything.
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rinkworks

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #135 on: December 09, 2011, 12:03:37 pm »
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A terminal Silver is a horrible horrible card.

+$2 is stronger than every other combination of 2 vanilla bonuses.  +2 Cards is situationally stronger, but not as a rule of thumb.  Contrast Torturer with Mandarin to see how much less +X Cards is valued compared to +$X.  That makes Duchess better than Moat in the absence of attacks.  And considering that Moat is almost always a mistake in 2p games even with attacks, Duchess is better than Moat then, too.

Herbalist is much worse, outside of a couple of rare combos, Alchemist perhaps being the only greatly significant one.  It's a terminal Copper, for heaven's sake.  A terminal Silver is twice as good, unless you can always make use of the +Buy and/or treasure-return, which is way more situational than just getting raw money will ever be.

Pearl Diver?  It does no harm to your deck, which is a defense that should be meaningless to any player who has any idea what they're doing.  A level 10+ player will get further using Duchess in the situations where it is useful than he or she ever will using Pearl Diver in the situations where Pearl Diver is useful.
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Fabian

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #136 on: December 09, 2011, 01:32:08 pm »
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Don't know what you mean by the Torturer vs Mandarin example, I don't get what comparing one of the worst $5 cards with one of the best $5 cards (and obviously this has little to do with the cards vs coin, but the secondary effects) is supposed to be saying.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but most of the arguments you bring up are either statements that mean nothing by themselves ($2 may or may not be the strongest combination of "2 vanilla bonuses", but then again there's a reason no other cards in the game are just "2 vanilla bonuses") or just misinformed. Saying "Herbalist is much worse except for the two good things about it" and "Moat is much worse except for the primary effect of it" is just pointless. Yes, remove +buy and the ability to reuse Gold/Platinum/Hoard/whatever and Herbalist is obviously a lot worse than Duchess, but what does that even mean? Yes, Moat is often (maybe even "almost always") a mistake in 2p games even with attacks, but Duchess is probably a bigger mistake, more often. Again, pointing out that Moat (one of the weaker cards in the game) is horrible doesn't make Duchess less horrible. What makes Duchess worse than other bad $2 cards is that there are (very very close to) no situations where you want it (talking primarily about the early/mid game, see above post for comment on endgames). Moat and Herbalist, you rarely want, but when you do, they actually provide something of value.

Pearl Diver is sort of a pet hate card of mine, so we're kinda in agreement I guess. That said, a card that (given it's in your deck already) 2% of the time is helpful, 5-20% of the time is harmful, and 78-93% of the time is pointless, is much much better than a card which is harmful 20-50% (edit: this is kind of a stupid way of evaluating things I'll admit, since cards don't magically pop into a deck without consideration, so don't be too hard on me for using those numbers) of the time (given it's in your deck).

On the vast majority of boards, you prefer opening $5 card/nothing with a 5/2 split rather than $5 card/Duchess. The same is true with Moat, Pearl Diver, Herbalist, and more cards, but it's true less often of those cards, and those cards are much less bad (or "better" sometimes, even), than Duchess (basically) ever is.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 01:35:23 pm by Fabian »
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rinkworks

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #137 on: December 09, 2011, 02:29:53 pm »
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Don't know what you mean by the Torturer vs Mandarin example, I don't get what comparing one of the worst $5 cards with one of the best $5 cards (and obviously this has little to do with the cards vs coin, but the secondary effects) is supposed to be saying.

Just that at the same price point, one card offers +3 Cards and one offers +$3, so we might look to what else the cards do to even the scales a little.  Torturer offers a brutal attack.  Mandarin offers a pretty weak benefit that is often a drawback.  Never mind these two specific cards -- just in general, it does seem that +$ is more likely to boost the price of a card than an equal amount of +Cards will.  If you find that argument flawed, I won't press it -- it was a tangent anyway.

The point I was trying to make in that post (and failing, I guess) was that a "terminal Silver" is far from a "terrible, terrible card."  It would be at $3 or higher, of course, as then Silver would be a better choice.  But at a $2 price point, it's not.

Quote
Saying "Herbalist is much worse except for the two good things about it" and "Moat is much worse except for the primary effect of it" is just pointless.

If we are to consider degree of situationality as a factor in judging a card's strength in general terms -- and indeed we must, or surely Chancellor and Stash would be among the strongest of all cards, simply because they're very strong when they turn up together -- then I believe my point is valid.  The situations in which Herbalist and Moat are not terrible cards are relatively few, because you have to have very specific needs to get good use out of them (for Herbalist: a need for +Buy, no better source of +Buy, and a use for returning treasure; for Moat, the presence of strong attacks and probably playing with 3 or more players).

But the situations in which an uncomplicated boon of coins to spend are much, much, MUCH more common.  Short of actual victory points, like what Monument gives you, coins are the MOST general resource.  The other things cards can do are merely different ways to get or use those coins.

Duchess' terminality is really the only big drawback.  And I admit that usually there will be a preferable terminal to obtain.  But if you can get a terminal Silver on the short end of a 5/2 opening (or with a spare buy, or for FREE with a Duchy) and spare yourself the opportunity cost of obtaining a more expensive terminal later, that might very well be enough to tip the scales in Duchess' favor.  Or maybe you have the extra actions, in which case adding a terminal isn't a big deal.

Again, note that I'm not saying I think Duchess is a great card so much as that there are several $2 cards I consider worse.  Tejayes' stats, by the way, bear me out.  Clearly we disagree, though, and that's okay.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 02:37:27 pm by rinkworks »
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Fabian

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #138 on: December 09, 2011, 02:39:12 pm »
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And because of how those cards are designed to "even it out", one is among the strongest $5 cards and one is among the weakest. This has (close to) nothing to do with the card vs coin effect, and (almost) everything to do with the rest of the card. If you hypothetically redesigned Torturer and Mandarin to be of an even power level, clearly the secondary effects of them would be very different indeed, and how that would look exactly is anyone's guess.

As for the rest of your post, I agree it's fine that we agree to disagree that a terminal Silver is a terrible terrible card. Just like with your last post, I disagree with close to everything in your second paragraph, but it doesn't matter. I will admit it's at least feasible that you'd open Duchess as your one terminal action on a 5/2 board where your "preferred" terminal is a 3/4 card, but the opportunity cost of picking it up later for the cost of a Silver/Caravan/whatever is too great (in theory), but I would guess that probably happens once every 5000 games.
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dondon151

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #139 on: December 09, 2011, 02:54:47 pm »
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To add on to rinkworks's argument, a terminal +3 cards is worth $4; a terminal +$3 is worth around $5, and Gold is worth $6.

I think the main consideration taken between costing terminal +cards and terminal +$ is that it's much easier to draw other cards dead with terminal +cards. Once you start tacking +actions onto these cards, then +cards is worth more than +$.
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Fabian

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #140 on: December 09, 2011, 03:02:21 pm »
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The thing is it's close to pointless talking about what an effect "is worth", other than for fun. A terminal +$3 is probably worth 5.5 (and would be horrible at that price of course) or something (surely Mandarin isn't a fair representation as it comes with one small and one big to huge drawback to it), and yet Duchess is terrible at a terminal +$2 despite "only" costing $2. Obviously this doesn't make much sense when comparing to Gold vs Silver for instance, but it's just not an interesting comparison without context. With context added, Duchess is a card you almost never want in your deck, because you can always do better, either by getting Silver or by getting nothing or by getting something that's actually good (perhaps Herbalist on a rare'ish occasion!)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 03:04:51 pm by Fabian »
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chwhite

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #141 on: December 09, 2011, 04:09:04 pm »
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Pearl Diver is sort of a pet hate card of mine, so we're kinda in agreement I guess. That said, a card that (given it's in your deck already) 2% of the time is helpful, 5-20% of the time is harmful, and 78-93% of the time is pointless, is much much better than a card which is harmful 20-50% (edit: this is kind of a stupid way of evaluating things I'll admit, since cards don't magically pop into a deck without consideration, so don't be too hard on me for using those numbers) of the time (given it's in your deck).

On the vast majority of boards, you prefer opening $5 card/nothing with a 5/2 split rather than $5 card/Duchess. The same is true with Moat, Pearl Diver, Herbalist, and more cards, but it's true less often of those cards, and those cards are much less bad (or "better" sometimes, even), than Duchess (basically) ever is.

I'll open $5/Pearl Diver over $5/nothing the vast majority of the time; PD is really only harmful if you're planning on making terminal draw a big component of your deck, and if you open with a $5 that's unlikely to be the case.  Moat, Herbalist, SC, and Duchess are all cards I'll decline to buy on the $5/$2 split with regularity, but not Pearl Diver.

Also it's helpful much more than 2 percent of the time; though it's never really that helpful of course.
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Fabian

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #142 on: December 09, 2011, 04:16:52 pm »
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"I'll open $5/Pearl Diver over $5/nothing the vast majority of the time; PD is really only harmful if you're planning on making terminal draw any sort of component of your deck,"

I'll agree this far :) and I'd probably open the same given that there wasn't any terminal drawers, and there weren't any better $2's.
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chwhite

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #143 on: December 09, 2011, 04:46:11 pm »
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"I'll open $5/Pearl Diver over $5/nothing the vast majority of the time; PD is really only harmful if you're planning on making terminal draw any sort of component of your deck,"

I'll agree this far :) and I'd probably open the same given that there wasn't any terminal drawers, and there weren't any better $2's.

If terminal draw is mixed in with lots of Villages and cantrips, then PD doesn't hurt.  I'd gladly buy some with my spare $2s in a Worker's Village/Rabble engine, for instance.
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DStu

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #144 on: December 12, 2011, 03:42:04 am »
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I think like you don't rate Peddler like how it was if it cost $8, you can't rate Duchess as if it cost $2. Of course, the effect of Duchess is much weaker, you can't pull of all these nice tricks you can pull of with Peddler (perhaps only KC it for $6 when there is no alternative for money...), and it will never* be an important part of any engine. But which $2 is**?
When you play BM-ish, a free terminal Silver when you are in the middle of the greening-stage, and the game seems to drag out a little longer (why else would you buy this Duchy?) is 'nice'. Yeah, you won't buy it for $2, but you also don't buy a Peddler for $8.

*for suitable definition of "never".
** Yes, I know NV/Bridge...
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olneyce

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #145 on: December 12, 2011, 04:44:30 am »
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and it will never* be an important part of any engine. But which $2 is**?
Well, Chapel. 

And Hamlet.  Haven to a lesser extent.  Crossroads can be.  Native Village certainly, and not just with Bridges.  And while Courtyard and Fool's Gold aren't key parts of engines per se, they are fantastic enablers for Big Money, or variants.  Which is it's own kind of engine.  Even Pawns are pretty great for running a Hunting Party engine (providing +buy and spammable money).  The other +action cards certainly fit within engines and can be useful parts for getting Conspirators or Peddlers off the ground.  Lighthouse is also a very important card in games with attacks. 

The point is that Duchess doesn't just not enable any engines.  It's that Duchess actively damages most engines.

If you're taking a $2 terminal, it better do something pretty useful.  Because there are much better terminals in the upper ranks. So you have Herbalist, which serves a specific but potentially crucial function.  And at least offers a +buy, which is potentially something unique on the board.  Moat obviously is all about the reaction, not about the action-function.  The same is true to a lesser extent with Secret Chamber, which does deal well with at least a few attacks, and has a moderately useful effect in some engines.

All of which is to say that Duchess is so clearly the most useless of the $2 cards, and by such a large margin, that you're probably right in saying that we shouldn't think of it as a $2 card at all.
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olneyce

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #146 on: December 12, 2011, 04:53:49 am »
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To put this another way, here are the cards that are gained more often than they are bought: Curse, the Prizes, Copper, and Duchess.  So, cards that CAN'T be bought, cards that Mountebanks dish out as punishment, and Duchess.

So, games with Duchess in them might be thought of as 9-pile boards, with an additional random stack that you could purchase for $2 if you really wanted to.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #147 on: December 12, 2011, 09:27:21 am »
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To put this another way, here are the cards that are gained more often than they are bought: Curse, the Prizes, Copper, and Duchess.  So, cards that CAN'T be bought, cards that Mountebanks dish out as punishment, and Duchess.

Workshop, Ironworks, Remodel? I'm really not sure tbh, but I'd say these would at least be fairly close.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #148 on: December 12, 2011, 09:43:28 am »
+1

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Jimmmmm

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #149 on: December 12, 2011, 05:23:00 pm »
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http://councilroom.com/popular_buys

Olneyce is correct.

Right, we have stats for that. ;)

Of course, technically all cards are gained more often than bought since cards bought is a subset of cards gained (with the exception of Trader).
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