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Author Topic: Updating the Top 5 lists  (Read 87871 times)

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DStu

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2011, 05:54:16 am »
0

DoubleJack beats Sea Hag even more easily than it beats Witch. 75-25 against one hag + big money, 64-36 against two hags + big money.

There might be a problem with Geronimoos simulator, also concerning JoaT. Or was this yours?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2011, 12:23:19 pm »
0

Best $4: Jack, Remake, Tournament, Envoy, Bishop are all up there, but prioritizing Sea Hag is still the go-to strategy on most boards. It might be interesting to see how well Jack does against it as the draw/trash seems like a direct counter.

DoubleJack beats Sea Hag even more easily than it beats Witch. 75-25 against one hag + big money, 64-36 against two hags + big money.

Just because A beats B head to head doesn't mean that A is better than B in general. I think you guys are overrating Jack, though it is obviously strong. I'll try to post my thoughts on top/bottom lists soon.

ChaosRed

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2011, 12:26:37 pm »
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Just because A beats B head to head doesn't mean that A is better than B in general. I think you guys are overrating Jack, though it is obviously strong. I'll try to post my thoughts on top/bottom lists soon.

Yeah, agreed. It is so hard to rate individual cards, because of this exact problem. A card's strength is often actualized with complementary cards on the board. It's hard to judge cards in a vacuum. It can be done, (this thread is an excellent example that it can be done), but you have to remember that cards don't stand on their own.

My favorite 4? Well, how about Gardens? It can dominate a board, warp a game and generally is a complete and utter tactic-changer. See? Here we have a card, that on its own, isn't really anything, but with the right synergy, is arguably one of the more powerful cards in the pantheon.
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Copernicus

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2011, 01:07:15 pm »
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The main issue with any "top X list" is that it needs to be written with a specific goal in mind.

There are probably three different articles that could be written-

* A list of cards that are powerful by themselves.  Cards that change the way the game is played in combination with others (Gardens, Fool's Gold, Crossroads) should not be on this list or be given an honorable mention.

* A list of cards that are game-altering.  Stuff like Gardens or Fool's Gold would make that list, but other cards that are just "good" might not (like Laboratory).

* An educational article for a mid-level player.  Clump together cards that do similar things with an emphasis on the power of things like Tactician and Vault and the weakness of cards like Great Hall or Spy.
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ehunt

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2011, 01:08:34 pm »
0

A few remarks:

1. Duchess isn't a great card, but it's a welcome relief on some boards when you split 5/2, which is more than can be said for herbalist.

2. I still haven't really figured out how to use the "duchy" aspect of Duchess strategically. There might be something really clever lurking that we haven't discovered yet. (I felt this way about transmute for a very long time before giving up on it.)

3. As for develop, is it worse than trade route? (A card that I love, but that isn't very good in most games.) Certainly absent island or great hall it's a stronger opener, and like trade route, it can be board-dependently outstanding in the late game. Trade route probably has a higher must-buy feel to it on boards where it's ridiculously good than develop, and occasionally you hold your nose and buy a trade route just for the +buy, but I think develop's better early trashing ability would make me call it a slightly better card.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2011, 01:11:51 pm »
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A few remarks:

1. Duchess isn't a great card, but it's a welcome relief on some boards when you split 5/2, which is more than can be said for herbalist.

2. I still haven't really figured out how to use the "duchy" aspect of Duchess strategically. There might be something really clever lurking that we haven't discovered yet. (I felt this way about transmute for a very long time before giving up on it.)

3. As for develop, is it worse than trade route? (A card that I love, but that isn't very good in most games.) Certainly absent island or great hall it's a stronger opener, and like trade route, it can be board-dependently outstanding in the late game. Trade route probably has a higher must-buy feel to it on boards where it's ridiculously good than develop, and occasionally you hold your nose and buy a trade route just for the +buy, but I think develop's better early trashing ability would make me call it a slightly better card.
I must disagree. I think that develop is a pretty dreadful opener most of the time, it trashes really terribly (hardly better than trade route), and I also don't think that trade route is almost ever a must buy.

ehunt

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2011, 01:24:48 pm »
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To clarify, I agree that develop is almost always a mistake as an opener, and am just arguing that it's better than trade route as an opener.
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guided

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2011, 01:27:20 pm »
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I think situations where Develop is a strong opener will be rarer than situations where Trade Route is a strong opener.

At the risk of blowing a minor secret weapon of mine... Trade Route can sometimes be really good to open with if it's the only trasher on a Colony board.
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ehunt

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2011, 01:29:57 pm »
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Wait - I almost always open trade route if it's the only trasher (and strategies that will rely on me making 5 dollars early aren't obviously dominant) - is this wrong?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2011, 01:34:20 pm »
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Wait - I almost always open trade route if it's the only trasher (and strategies that will rely on me making 5 dollars early aren't obviously dominant) - is this wrong?
Yes.

chwhite

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2011, 01:41:15 pm »
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Oh, Trade Route.

Trade Route is my kryptonite.  When it's around, I go for it the vast majority of the time, and invariably crash and burn, playing really really stupidly.  And yet I can't give up its siren song.  I wish I could quit you, Trade Route.

Serously, though, Trade Route is pretty weak; its trashing is probably the worst part about it, and is best thought of as a late-game source of +Buy and income.  It's a better trasher than Develop and Transmute and maybe Mine and that's it.  (Okay maybe it's better at thinning the deck than Remodel, since that doesn't thin your deck at all).  Really the +Buy (and Colony games) is what's keeping it out of the Bottom 5.
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guided

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2011, 01:56:34 pm »
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To be sure, Trade Route is not frequently a strong opener. But Develop is... just, so bad as an opener, man.

When I open with Trade Route it's because I think the game will be long enough that trashing one card at a time with a terminal action (not normally strong!) is strong in and of itself. The late-game +Buy and +$ are little throw-in bonuses that don't (usually) factor into the decision to open with the card.
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DG

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2011, 02:08:01 pm »
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The +coins is important. If one player opens with an island then the trade route often becomes a better choice for the opponent.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2011, 03:06:24 pm »
+1

Note: all these are for 2 player
Top above 5
1.King's Court
2.Goons
3.Grand Market
4.Peddler
5.Hoard

Bottom above 5
1.Adventurer
2.Forge
3.Expand
4.Farmland
5.Bank

Top 5 Attacks
1.Witch
2.Mountebank
3.Minion
4.Margrave
5.Ghost Ship
I want to note that Ghost Ship moves ahead of Margrave when there isn't something combo-y possible; it's very good there, better than gold for your first couple actually

Top 5 non-attacks
1.Wharf
2.Hunting Party
3.Tactician
4.Ill Gotten Gains
5.Stables
Note: IGG and stables aren't stable here, I don't have a great feel for them. But man, Wharf is still the best, and Hunting party is insane.

Bottom 5s
1.Outpost
2.Saboteur
3.Counting House
4.Contraband
5.Mine
Yeah, I'm going to get killed for Outpost. And it's not always useless. But I don't see it.

Top 4s
1.Sea Hag
2.JoaT
3.Monument
4.Militia
5.Smithy
I think tournament is pretty overrated, Monument very very underrated. And Caravan extremely overrated, though not bad.

Bottom 4s
1.Scout
2.Thief
3.Talisman
4.Treasure Map
5.Noble Brigand
Scout is terrible, by the way, even with it getting a good deal better with Hinterlands.

Top 3s
1.Ambassador
2.Fishing Village
3.Masquerade
4.Swindler
5.Warehouse
I'm quite sure of the top 4 here, 5th is much less clear. Actually Hinterlands has a lot of ambassador counters too.

Bottom 3s
1.Develop
2.Chancellor
3.Woodcutter
4.Black Market
5.Trade Route
I always find that black market is tough as a terminal, as usually there's SOMETHING good on the board, rather than going fishing for some one of few things in the BM.

Top 2s
1.Chapel
2.Hamlet
3.Courtyard
4.Lighthouse
5.Pawn
Wow, I'm actually surprised lighthouse is this low. It's routinely better than silver (basically if there's almost any attack or anything benefitting from non-replacing non-terminals), but it just doesn't have the star power of hamlet or courtyard (which, incidentally, is often better than smithy).

Bottom 2s
1.Secret Chamber
2.Moat
3.Herbalist
4.Cellar
5.Pearl Diver
No comments here really.

I want to say that I may have missed something, just jotting these down in about a half hour. I also look at worst very simply: How often is it that this is the card I want to buy. If I never want it, it's terrible. That doesn't mean it's necessarily terrible once I have it, just that, given the opportunity, cost, how often is it worth it? Best is a bit more tricky, because it has to be a combination of wanting it often and having it really shine as the centrepiece of a deck.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2011, 03:08:53 pm »
0

Sorry for the double post, but:
Walled Village comes oh-so-close to making bottom of the 4s. And Governor I think actually should bump Mine as a bad 5. It just seems terrible to me.
Edit: Gahhh! And Coppersmith must be worse than noble brigand.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 03:14:13 pm by WanderingWinder »
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Copernicus

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2011, 03:52:46 pm »
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@ WanderingWinder-

I think Remake has to be on the top $4 list.  I also like Menagerie more than Warehouse, although both are rather strong.  Or you could just cheat and say Silver.  :)

I think Ill-Gotten Gains needs to be moved to an attack, since it looks like an attack and acts like an attack.  There's a lot of competition for the final two cards in the top $5 list, which prettyy much comes down to what bonus the player wants with their +1 card/+1 action.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2011, 04:01:08 pm »
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@ WanderingWinder-

I think Remake has to be on the top $4 list.  I also like Menagerie more than Warehouse, although both are rather strong.  Or you could just cheat and say Silver.  :)

I think Ill-Gotten Gains needs to be moved to an attack, since it looks like an attack and acts like an attack.  There's a lot of competition for the final two cards in the top $5 list, which prettyy much comes down to what bonus the player wants with their +1 card/+1 action.
You're definitely right on remake; I meant to put it at number 4, ahead of militia. IGG I maintain as a non-attack because, strictly speaking, it isn't one. You can't moat it. You can't lighthouse it. So, it's sorta similar to how peddler costs more than 5, even though it usually doesn't by the time you get it.

rspeer

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2011, 06:50:45 pm »
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DoubleJack beats Sea Hag even more easily than it beats Witch. 75-25 against one hag + big money, 64-36 against two hags + big money.

There might be a problem with Geronimoos simulator, also concerning JoaT. Or was this yours?

Definitely mine.

Of course there are lots of reasons not to trust a simulator blindly, one of which is that they sometimes have bugs. But the nearly complete dominance of JoAT can be confirmed with both simulators, against a variety of strategies, and also by actually playing the game that way.
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guided

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2011, 07:00:18 pm »
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To say Outpost is usually not good is to speak truth. However, "usually" in this case means "about 3/4 to 4/5 of the time", and the other 1/5 to 1/4 of the time it is stupendously good. It isn't even in the same zip code as the ballpark Counting House and Saboteur play in, either in terms of frequency of usefulness or degree of usefulness when it is useful.
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DG

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2011, 07:56:57 pm »
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I think a lot of cards on these lists are debatable now. There seems to be more variety of play within hinterlands kingdoms and a lot of situational cards have more situations. I suspect there needs to be more time for the dust to settle before any lists are produced.
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Fangz

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2011, 09:20:42 pm »
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Note: all these are for 2 player
Top above 5
1.King's Court
2.Goons
3.Grand Market
4.Peddler
5.Hoard

Bottom above 5
1.Adventurer
2.Forge
3.Expand
4.Farmland
5.Bank

Pretty much agreed. I'd say that expand and forge are more useful than farmland most of the time, but it's close.

Quote
Top 5 Attacks
1.Witch
2.Mountebank
3.Minion
4.Margrave
5.Ghost Ship
I want to note that Ghost Ship moves ahead of Margrave when there isn't something combo-y possible; it's very good there, better than gold for your first couple actually

No jester? I'd have jester at $5 instead of ghost ship. I mean, ghost ship is more annoying, but jester seems more useful and there are fewer counters.

Quote
Top 5 non-attacks
1.Wharf
2.Hunting Party
3.Tactician
4.Ill Gotten Gains
5.Stables
Note: IGG and stables aren't stable here, I don't have a great feel for them. But man, Wharf is still the best, and Hunting party is insane.

I don't really get the love for your #4 and #5. Stables has generally failed to impress me - being often weaker than laboratory - and IGG seems narrow strategically (if its main use is for trashing into something else, then it's not that good a card :p). Vault as a strategy unto itself should still be on this list.

Quote
Bottom 5s
1.Outpost
2.Saboteur
3.Counting House
4.Contraband
5.Mine
Yeah, I'm going to get killed for Outpost. And it's not always useless. But I don't see it.
It's crazy to have outpost be the worst card. Mandarin should be on this list, though it's probably better than counting house.

I hear what you said about governor, but governor's problem comes from being misplayed. It's actually quite strong as a gold gainer/non-terminal remodel in the late game.

Quote
Top 4s
1.Sea Hag
2.JoaT
3.Monument
4.Militia
5.Smithy
I think tournament is pretty overrated, Monument very very underrated. And Caravan extremely overrated, though not bad.

Remake ought to be on this list, probably above monument.

Quote
Bottom 4s
1.Scout
2.Thief
3.Talisman
4.Treasure Map
5.Noble Brigand
Scout is terrible, by the way, even with it getting a good deal better with Hinterlands.

Coppersmith should be on this. I'd put Traders also on this but some people might complain.

Quote
Top 3s
1.Ambassador
2.Fishing Village
3.Masquerade
4.Swindler
5.Warehouse
I'm quite sure of the top 4 here, 5th is much less clear. Actually Hinterlands has a lot of ambassador counters too.
Is Swindler that good? It's too variable IMHO. Steward is more generally useful IMHO.

Quote
Bottom 3s
1.Develop
2.Chancellor
3.Woodcutter
4.Black Market
5.Trade Route
I always find that black market is tough as a terminal, as usually there's SOMETHING good on the board, rather than going fishing for some one of few things in the BM.
I don't get the hate for develop some people have. It's a nice, albeit situational card. It sucks as an estate/copper trasher, but the times where there's useful $5-3 cards are more common than people think. I'd put oracle on this list.

Quote
Top 2s
1.Chapel
2.Hamlet
3.Courtyard
4.Lighthouse
5.Pawn
Wow, I'm actually surprised lighthouse is this low. It's routinely better than silver (basically if there's almost any attack or anything benefitting from non-replacing non-terminals), but it just doesn't have the star power of hamlet or courtyard (which, incidentally, is often better than smithy).

Bottom 2s
1.Secret Chamber
2.Moat
3.Herbalist
4.Cellar
5.Pearl Diver
No comments here really.

I want to say that I may have missed something, just jotting these down in about a half hour. I also look at worst very simply: How often is it that this is the card I want to buy. If I never want it, it's terrible. That doesn't mean it's necessarily terrible once I have it, just that, given the opportunity, cost, how often is it worth it? Best is a bit more tricky, because it has to be a combination of wanting it often and having it really shine as the centrepiece of a deck.
Now that's an interesting criteria. By that criteria, herbalist is at least useful *sometimes* (as the only source of +buy). Pearl diver should be the top of this list, because I've never, ever looked at a board and said 'ah, pearl diver is what I need here'.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 09:23:28 pm by Fangz »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2011, 09:34:47 pm »
0

To say Outpost is usually not good is to speak truth. However, "usually" in this case means "about 3/4 to 4/5 of the time", and the other 1/5 to 1/4 of the time it is stupendously good. It isn't even in the same zip code as the ballpark Counting House and Saboteur play in, either in terms of frequency of usefulness or degree of usefulness when it is useful.

That's fine. I disagree with you on both points for sure, but you know, they are all terrible (I definitely think outpost isn't worth it 20% of the time FWIW), so it's not a huge deal.

Copernicus

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2011, 09:46:34 pm »
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I don't get the hate for develop some people have. It's a nice, albeit situational card. It sucks as an estate/copper trasher, but the times where there's useful $5-3 cards are more common than people think. I'd put oracle on this list.

The problems with Develop-
 * Unlike a lot of the trash for +1/2 benefit, it's not good in multiples.  If I draw two Remodels, I get a Gold.  Two Remakes gives me a $5 card.  Two Upgrades gives me a gold.  Two Develops... and I get an Estate and a $4?
 * It needs to rely on the rest of the board to have good combos.  I'm sure someone has done a Develop/Mountebank/King's Court board, but most of the time it's turning an average $4 card into a $5 card and a silver.  Which isn't bad, but it kind of wastes the $4 card and I'm stuck with trying to do something with my other 3 cards.
 * A lot of times when I buy a bad trasher (Lookout, Trade Routes) early on, my goal is to have a slim deck with some cool combo going.  In that instance, the bad trasher can still give some benefit even late in the game.  But Develop takes my skinny deck and starts fattening it up if I try to use it.

It has its uses.  I'm sure someone has looked at a board and declared "Develop is the key to my plan!" and been right.  But for a general purpose best/worst list of "Am I thinking about getting this card when it shows up?", it easily fits under the not good.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2011, 09:55:19 pm »
0

No jester? I'd have jester at $5 instead of ghost ship. I mean, ghost ship is more annoying, but jester seems more useful and there are fewer counters.
Jester is almost never stellar, as it's really hard to set it up it gaining you a really nice card. Ghost ship is monstrously powerful in big money decks.

Quote
I don't really get the love for your #4 and #5. Stables has generally failed to impress me - being often weaker than laboratory - and IGG seems narrow strategically (if its main use is for trashing into something else, then it's not that good a card :p). Vault as a strategy unto itself should still be on this list.
Yeah, I've actually been pretty unimpressed with stables too, but then, I think that's because we're expecting it to do more than we should. IGG, on the other hand, is more of a strategy unto itself than vault is. It also works better with more other cards. If vault didn't have the opponent benefit, I'd think it was close. But IGG/Duchy rush is just really powerful. So I'm really unsure with stables, and my gut tells me it shouldn't be up there, but... well, I guess I might stick venture there.

Quote
It's crazy to have outpost be the worst card. Mandarin should be on this list, though it's probably better than counting house.
I definitely disagree with you on both points, and while outpost might not be the absolute worst (I do think it is, but I'm not totally sure), I really don't think it's crazy to put it there. Man, tell me where you guys are really wanting these outpost decks.
Quote
I hear what you said about governor, but governor's problem comes from being misplayed. It's actually quite strong as a gold gainer/non-terminal remodel in the late game.
Man, I don't like any of the three parts of Governor. Gain a gold, give a silver is good but sorta slow, and not all that strong anyway. The remodel seems like it might actually be stronger for the opponent fairly often. And man, giving the opponent a lab is huge, even if you get two yourself.

Quote
Remake ought to be on this list, probably above monument.
As I said above, I'd put it above militia. But BELOW monument. Man, Monument is really good.
Quote
Coppersmith should be on this. I'd put Traders also on this but some people might complain.
Again, noted above that I'd put Coppersmith on this. Traders by itself is a decent-not-great card. As a counter to ambassador and every curser, it's super useful though, and it has some nice other interactions too (mostly with alternate VP things). So it's probably not USUALLY worth it, but sorta close, and often very good. So I definitely don't think it's close to the bottom. There are some pretty terrible 4s.
Quote
Is Swindler that good? It's too variable IMHO. Steward is more generally useful IMHO.
It may be the highest variance card in the game, but it's really strong too. It will hit one to two coppers early really often. And it can hit an important 3 or 4 or 5 (or even 6, sometimes province into peddler) and turn it into something useless pretty often.
Steward is nice, but actually pretty often I don't want to spend my terminal on it. Every new set that comes out, I seem less and less impressed by it. But yes, steward is good.

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I don't get the hate for develop some people have. It's a nice, albeit situational card. It sucks as an estate/copper trasher, but the times where there's useful $5-3 cards are more common than people think. I'd put oracle on this list.
But you have to get the develop WITH the 4 cost card that's not worthless, and man, that's a lot of setup for your enormous tempo loss. Is it the worst 3 in the game? I'm not THAT confident in it, but I'm pretty sure it's pretty bad.

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Now that's an interesting criteria. By that criteria, herbalist is at least useful *sometimes* (as the only source of +buy). Pearl diver should be the top of this list, because I've never, ever looked at a board and said 'ah, pearl diver is what I need here'.
Herbalist is useful sometimes, but where you're that hurting for buys is not that often. Pearl diver should NOT be at the top of the list, because, well, it's effect on cycling is actually pretty decent. Man, if I'm not having terminal draw, I actually like pearl diver fairly well.

chwhite

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Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2011, 10:35:46 pm »
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Top 5 Attacks
1.Witch
2.Mountebank
3.Minion
4.Margrave
5.Ghost Ship
I want to note that Ghost Ship moves ahead of Margrave when there isn't something combo-y possible; it's very good there, better than gold for your first couple actually
What happened to Torturer?  I'll grant that it is worse than Margrave and GS as a single terminal on a board with no Villages, but Torturer-Village is just so strong.

Top 5 non-attacks
1.Wharf
2.Hunting Party
3.Tactician
4.Ill Gotten Gains
5.Stables
Note: IGG and stables aren't stable here, I don't have a great feel for them. But man, Wharf is still the best, and Hunting party is insane.
I am shocked, SHOCKED that you put IGG and Stables up there.  You may even be right about IGG.

Bottom 5s
1.Outpost
2.Saboteur
3.Counting House
4.Contraband
5.Mine
Yeah, I'm going to get killed for Outpost. And it's not always useless. But I don't see it.
My opinion of Outpost is pretty much halfway between you and Guided; it's pretty bad 80% of the time but too useful when it's good to deserve a spot here.  You're probably expecting me to say "but where's Explorer!?" and I still think it belongs somewhere on this list, but Hinterlands is really bringing Silver back and I won a game against Theory earlier today opening Explorer, so I'm coming around to it being better than Sab at least, maybe even one or two others.  Still don't think Contraband and Mine belong; in particular I think the boards where Contraband is a good buy are much more frequent than Cache boards.

Top 4s
1.Sea Hag
2.JoaT
3.Monument
4.Militia
5.Smithy
I think tournament is pretty overrated, Monument very very underrated. And Caravan extremely overrated, though not bad.
I actually agree that Monument is underrated and it's one of like eight cards I could see filling the last two spots.  But man, Tournament is the one card you are just absolutely out to lunch on- it really is that good.

Bottom 4s
1.Scout
2.Thief
3.Talisman
4.Treasure Map
5.Noble Brigand
Scout is terrible, by the way, even with it getting a good deal better with Hinterlands.
Can't argue much here, though try to tell me that Walled Village just misses this list and I'll come up with a half-dozen worse 4s above and beyond these five.

Top 3s
1.Ambassador
2.Fishing Village
3.Masquerade
4.Swindler
5.Warehouse
I'm quite sure of the top 4 here, 5th is much less clear. Actually Hinterlands has a lot of ambassador counters too.
Menagerie, man.  Granted, I specialize in Menagerie games like you specialize in Gardens.  But Menagerie is underrated if anything, it's that powerful.

Bottom 3s
1.Develop
2.Chancellor
3.Woodcutter
4.Black Market
5.Trade Route
I always find that black market is tough as a terminal, as usually there's SOMETHING good on the board, rather than going fishing for some one of few things in the BM.
I go back and forth on Black Market: it feels like it should be awful, and the stats say it is, but I win with it a lot so I'd rather put in something like Smugglers or Workshop or even Great Hall.

Top 2s
1.Chapel
2.Hamlet
3.Courtyard
4.Lighthouse
5.Pawn
Wow, I'm actually surprised lighthouse is this low. It's routinely better than silver (basically if there's almost any attack or anything benefitting from non-replacing non-terminals), but it just doesn't have the star power of hamlet or courtyard (which, incidentally, is often better than smithy).

Bottom 2s
1.Secret Chamber
2.Moat
3.Herbalist
4.Cellar
5.Pearl Diver
No comments here really.
I'm more or less in agreement with these; may find room for Crossroads or bump Herbalist to #4 or #5, but generally this is my thinking too.


Man, I don't like any of the three parts of Governor. Gain a gold, give a silver is good but sorta slow, and not all that strong anyway. The remodel seems like it might actually be stronger for the opponent fairly often. And man, giving the opponent a lab is huge, even if you get two yourself.
Governor is pretty good but easily misplayed.  My thinking is that buying just one or two, and using it alternately to gain Gold and/or to give your engine a little double-Lab "pop" when it needs it, is probably the best way to play Governor.  The remodel choice is definitely the worst of the bunch.  Giving your opponents one extra card in hand is really not so bad; chaining a bunch of Governors is likely to end in tears though.

Again, noted above that I'd put Coppersmith on this. Traders by itself is a decent-not-great card. As a counter to ambassador and every curser, it's super useful though, and it has some nice other interactions too (mostly with alternate VP things). So it's probably not USUALLY worth it, but sorta close, and often very good. So I definitely don't think it's close to the bottom. There are some pretty terrible 4s.
I actually like Traders more than you'd expect- best in Hinterlands-heavy setups, great with Stables, doesn't play well with Colonies of course.  Coppersmith, too: it's not worth buying often at all, but it's the centerpiece of nearly every deck it's a part of, and there are so many bad $4s that I'm not sure there's room for it in the bottom 5.  Heck, even if you think it's worse than Bureaucrat and Talisman I still don't think there's room for it in the bottom 5.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 10:50:10 pm by chwhite »
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