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Author Topic: FiS: subtler bugs  (Read 10974 times)

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antony

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FiS: subtler bugs
« on: July 22, 2013, 10:34:42 pm »
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http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201307/22/game-20130722-193035-bee863c7.html
On my turn 9, I try to meld Printing Press from my forecast, triggering the karma of Sejong the Great (if you would meld a blue card of value above 3, instead return it and meld a card of value one higher), so I meld Coal instead (and not Printing Press).  I am still asked whether I want to apply Printing Press' dogma, but when I say yes it applies Sejong the Great's (the top blue card at that point) dogma instead (afaict).  I don't know what the official rules say but it is well established that a card's dogma can apply even after the card isn't at the top of its pile anymore (e.g. if a first part of the dogma scored the card itself), so I would guess that instead I should still have gotten Printing Press' dogma?
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timchen

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2013, 12:36:35 am »
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My guess is that you should apply the dogma of Coal? Since it is meld-and-execute I would tend to think when you are required to plug in Coal instead in the "meld" part in the way that as if Printing Press is never melded you probably should just treat the execute part as on the same card as well.
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teasel

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2013, 10:07:22 am »
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i had che guevara on my board,my opponent had florence nightingale but when i scored a green card his score was gone all the same,so i guess florence doesn't check for che guevara
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ksasaki

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2013, 11:24:22 am »
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I think certain karmas completely override the dogma, for Sejong, the text is:

Quote
if you would meld meld a blue card of value above 3, instead return it and draw and meld a card of one higher.

From the rulebook

Quote
Would: Starts with "If you would _______," and continues with a triggering condition and a reaction.  When that condition occurs, the karma effect interrupts whatever effect was in progress.  If the reaction starts with "instead," cancel the original effect and follow the instructions of the karma effect instead.  If the reaction starts with "first", follow the instructions of the karma effect, and then continue with the original effect.

Yeah confusing I know, good thing we have a rule engine to process it and not ourselves :P
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popsofctown

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2013, 05:42:30 pm »
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I agree with OP's interpretation.
From echoes rulebook, "...You meld that card immediately, and then you may take a free dogma action, selecting that card to activate."
"And then" establishes chronological order, but not a cause and effect relationship.  So whether the "meld that card immediately" event got nuked, the "you may take a free dogma action, selecting that card to activate" still happens. 

There's no rule that you can't activate dogmas of cards that aren't on your board, the game is structured such that you have permission to activate the top cards on your board, and maybe you can get permission some other ways too.  This is apparent with the light wording on that-figure-that-lets-you-activate-others'-blue-cards.  It's not as forceful as saying you activate that card as though it was your card, because it doesn't have to be, it more gently says to add that blue card to the list of cards you can activate whenever you like.
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ConMan

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2013, 07:40:53 pm »
+1

There's no rule that you can't activate dogmas of cardswalk dogs that aren't on your board, the game is structured such that you have permission to activatewalk the top cardsdogs on your board, and maybe you can get permission some other ways too.  This is apparent with the light wording on that-figure-that-lets-you-activatewalk-others'-blue-cardsdogs.  It's not as forceful as saying you activate that card as though it was your card, because it doesn't have to be, it more gently says to add that blue carddog to the list of cardsdogs you can activatewalk whenever you like.
Fixed.
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popsofctown

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2013, 08:39:23 pm »
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Yeah, this is different from Trader because we don't need to retrieve information from an event that never happened.  Since the rules for forecast clearly say you "1.select a card in your forecast.  2. You must meld it. 3. You may dogma it", 2's failure doesn't cause any memory leak issues for 3, we can refer to 1 to figure out what kind of dogma should occur.
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ksasaki

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2013, 09:07:36 am »
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I see, you guys are arguing the meld interrupt interrupted the meld, but not the rest of the effect.  Yeah that is interesting.
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WinterSpartan

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2013, 10:39:53 pm »
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Had an issue today where my opponent's Queen Victoria was stealing cards from my scorepile, despite my active Florence Nightingale. Unless there's an obscure rules point I'm missing, I think that's a bug.
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teasel

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2013, 07:24:54 am »
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winterspartan - i asked dougz and he says karma effect don't trigger other karma effect so karma effect can still touch your score even if florence nightingale is on board
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tyr10n

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2013, 02:28:13 pm »
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Queen Victoria's effect "Transfer a figure from any score pile to yours." is an echo effect (not a karma), so it should be modified by karmas.
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popsofctown

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2013, 02:47:10 pm »
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Ximen Bao uses the featured icon of non-yellow stacks instead of a leaf, even though the echo effects are supposed to "count as part of this stack".
Ximen Bao also has a tendency to tuck 2 cards from hand with its inspire effect instead of just one.
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teasel

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2013, 08:04:54 pm »
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i think there might be a bug with alhazen,i melded an age 4 card then drawed,and i still ended up drawing an age 3 card... but the pile that had the age 4 card was splayed and had a single castle in it... so maybe it's just how it's supposed to work?

« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 08:06:23 pm by teasel »
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WinterSpartan

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2013, 11:19:45 pm »
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Yes; Alhazen isn't always helpful. (Sometimes he's very useful; I had a nice multi-castle red stack splayed left, for instance. But not always.)
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popsofctown

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2013, 08:49:11 pm »
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Melding che guvara to score an enemy green figure doesn't nuke all score piles like it should.
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tyr10n

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2013, 10:40:29 pm »
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Melding che guvara to score an enemy green figure doesn't nuke all score piles like it should.
It seems like it should thematically, but by the rules, this is a case of karmas not being allowed to trigger other karmas. Caresse Crosby has a similar issue with her karmas not working together. See discussion here: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/992692/is-caresse-crosby-intentional
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popsofctown

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2013, 11:14:12 pm »
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Oh.  That's weird.  This is really counterintuitive to my MTG background since "if you would" is classified as a replacement effect there, and "when you meld" is a triggered ability.  I knew the rule but couldn't figure out to apply it here because of that distinction.
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popsofctown

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2013, 07:26:46 pm »
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I melded Peter the Great while I had Bartholomew Roberts out.  The bonus from Peter the Great caused me to reach 25 points.  Then I went to fade Bartholomew Roberts, which as I understand it means scoring it.  But even though age 5 had yet to be claimed and I had never achieved age 5 before, I didn't achieve age 5.  I think it's a bug either with fading or with the bonus not getting checked in time.
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popsofctown

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2013, 05:22:05 am »
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Canning+Saladin doesn't work.
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teasel

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2013, 10:08:05 am »
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on turn 13 my opponent used canal building and shared the effect,i decided to trade but he didn't get a figure out of the deal

http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201308/17/game-20130817-070720-97a0015e.html

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dougz

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2013, 07:33:48 pm »
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Canning+Saladin doesn't work.

This and your other issue (with Bartholomew Roberts) are really the same problem (and is also the reason Erwin Rommel isn't implemented as printed).  When you score a top card, first the card is removed from your board, then we look for any applicable karma effects, then the card is placed in your score pile (unless a karma effect sends it somewhere else).  So any karma effects on the card being scored aren't applied.

Probably card movements are meant to be atomic (ie, cards move from the board to the score pile instantaneously, and "if you would score" karmas happen before the cards leave the board), but it's not implemented this way, and it's a huge change at this point.  Might get to it some day but I'm not sure it's worth the disruption (and a whole new wave of bugs).
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popsofctown

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2013, 11:15:11 pm »
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Canning+Saladin doesn't work.

This and your other issue (with Bartholomew Roberts) are really the same problem (and is also the reason Erwin Rommel isn't implemented as printed).  When you score a top card, first the card is removed from your board, then we look for any applicable karma effects, then the card is placed in your score pile (unless a karma effect sends it somewhere else).  So any karma effects on the card being scored aren't applied.

Probably card movements are meant to be atomic (ie, cards move from the board to the score pile instantaneously, and "if you would score" karmas happen before the cards leave the board), but it's not implemented this way, and it's a huge change at this point.  Might get to it some day but I'm not sure it's worth the disruption (and a whole new wave of bugs).
So Rommel is continuously adding karma effects to a stack?  That's, interesting.
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dougz

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2013, 11:53:09 pm »
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So Rommel is continuously adding karma effects to a stack?

I don't know what this means.

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teasel

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2013, 12:07:15 pm »
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i think he's talking about the rommel bug where he ends up scoring a whole pile instead of just the top card,but last time i used him it only scored the top card so i tought that bug was fixed?
 
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dougz

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2013, 05:51:21 pm »
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That was fixed a while ago (see http://innovation.isotropic.org/static/changes.html for a not-very-useful change history).
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popsofctown

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2013, 02:00:13 am »
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http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201308/22/game-20130822-224242-0fab68d9.html

Last turn.

Archimedes is active, which makes Satellites draw 9's.  One of the three cards I draw is Computers, so I meld that over Archimedes and execute Computers for myself only.  I expect to draw and meld a 10, because computers is not "the chosen card" referred to on Archimedes text, but I draw an eleven and the game ends.

Archimedes was also covered when that happened, but on reflection I think that's actually irrelevant.
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popsofctown

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2013, 09:01:27 am »
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Alhazen has an oversight.  If you share it and your opponent tucks a card that is the only card in its color on his board, the game state doesn't actually change, but there is still a sharing bonus.

Well, technically the game state changed a little bit since that player is 1 step closer to monument.  Hmm, that's a thinker.
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dougz

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2013, 10:38:24 am »
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I expect to draw and meld a 10, because computers is not "the chosen card" referred to on Archimedes text, but I draw an eleven and the game ends.

The text I have for Archimedes says nothing about a "chosen card".
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popsofctown

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2013, 04:32:31 pm »
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Kepler does, which is why I was confused.

Reread the text, the implementation is correct
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teasel

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Re: FiS: subtler bugs
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2013, 08:13:54 pm »
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george stephenson triggered as i claimed supremacy,is this normal? i tought gaining a domain achievement wasn't the same as claiming an achievement
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